Rally Spectator Safety

[dcarlson2099]

Hello all, I'm currently a freshman studying motorsports engineering at IUPUI.
As part of an English assignment I'm required to gather information about safety opinions regarding rally. I tried posting in the rally forum, but I don't have permission to do that.

I would greatly appreciate anyone who takes the time to respond, feel free to provide additional input other than just answering the questions.

What do you think of the current safety measures in most rally events regarding the spectators? Are they well protected? How is the crowd control? Are they usually standing too close to the track?

What would you say in response to the following possible solutions regarding increasing spectator safety in rallying, both in regards to WRC events and smaller events.

-Barriers placed along the entire length of designated spectator areas
-Some sort of security force in addition to the marshals
- Marshals and emergency operators who are required to take a certification test before they can work at a rally

Thanks very much!

[Mark]

Why can't you post in the rally forum?

[Bolton Midnight]

What do you think of the current safety measures in most rally events regarding the spectators? Are they well protected? How is the crowd control? Are they usually standing too close to the track?

What would you say in response to the following possible solutions regarding increasing spectator safety in rallying, both in regards to WRC events and smaller events.

-Barriers placed along the entire length of designated spectator areas
-Some sort of security force in addition to the marshals
- Marshals and emergency operators who are required to take a certification test before they can work at a rally

Thanks very much!

Satisfactory in view of what they pay (usually nowt in the UK)
Not really
Bare minimum
Yes too close

Barriers - way too costly
Professional security - again too costly
Registered marshals - already have this in UK as much use as a chocolate teapot

The crews are spending enough already, fans must foot the bill for their own safety or go elsewhere they are nothing but a nuisance to the sport.

[Dave B]

All your own opinion, which of course you're entitled to, but I'd be interested in your rationale for posting:


Registered marshals - already have this in UK as much use as a chocolate teapot

Seems more than a little reactionary to me. :s

[Bolton Midnight]

I am one, nobody checked my abilities.

It is not policed at all, I just get my marshal's licence through the post, nobody asks what have I done recently and am I still up to scratch re new rules to carry the grade I do.

Complete and utter waste of time.

[ShiftingGears]

Hello all, I'm currently a freshman studying motorsports engineering at IUPUI.
As part of an English assignment I'm required to gather information about safety opinions regarding rally. I tried posting in the rally forum, but I don't have permission to do that.

I would greatly appreciate anyone who takes the time to respond, feel free to provide additional input other than just answering the questions.

What do you think of the current safety measures in most rally events regarding the spectators? Are they well protected? How is the crowd control? Are they usually standing too close to the track?

What would you say in response to the following possible solutions regarding increasing spectator safety in rallying, both in regards to WRC events and smaller events.

-Barriers placed along the entire length of designated spectator areas
-Some sort of security force in addition to the marshals
- Marshals and emergency operators who are required to take a certification test before they can work at a rally

Thanks very much!

I feel that there should be recommended safe areas, which spectators should be encouraged to go to if that is their primary concern, but for those who want to get closer to the stages than others, that is their own perogative (subject to the danger experienced by the rally participants).

[Bolton Midnight]

I feel that there should be recommended safe areas, which spectators should be encouraged to go to if that is their primary concern, but for those who want to get closer to the stages than others, that is their own perogative (subject to the danger experienced by the rally participants).

And when they get mowed down they will sue as they were in the safe area.

Charge them at least £20 per stage.

[MrJan]

Charge them at least £20 per stage.

That's the spirit, kill off a dying sport.

The level of spectator safety depends on the event, some are better than others, some go too far. Something like the Sunseeker always seem to be a bit OTT, steering you into very small spectator areas in crap places to watch. On the flip side the event also seems to attract a lot of idiots/fairweather rally fans that have no regard for their own safety...so the high level of crowd control is probably warranted.

At RallyGB the other week it seemed like it was quite strict with areas being cordoned off as prohibited areas, the thing is that these areas were out of sight of marshals, so were just ignored. The advantage of a rally that size is that there are a couple of passes by cars/officials before the stage goes live. Of course the downside of that is that once they;ve passed people are free to do what they want. One example can be seen in this photo:
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6107/6340807895_1df947874d_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrjanyeo/6340807895/)
IMG_3171 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrjanyeo/6340807895/) by Jan Yeo (http://www.flickr.com/people/mrjanyeo/), on Flickr

The reason he's running wide (I believe) can be seen in the background, a guy right on the apex of the corner taking photos. After this car the chap moved, to the apex of another corner, but soon moved on from there when someone pointed out that he was probably at fault for the near accident in the photo.

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[Andrewmcm]

Rally spectator safety: Don't stand on the outside of corners. Centripetal force is not your friend.

Also, don't stand right on the apex of corners like that clown taking the photo in the picture above.

[bluuford]

I have one note regarding fences, please, no fences they are much more dangerous to the crews if they are lighter, then they can be dangerous to spectators (when flying around) and also reducing visibility and therefore forcing spectators to spread more around stages.

This picture with Kruuda. I know his driving style, he likes to cut the corners a lot. In this corner, if I would be this photographer I would be happy to still own my head.

[MartijnS]

Just found this shots of the photographer next to Kruuda. WTF!

WRC Wales Rally GB 2011 | Flickr*: partage de photos*! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/robpackham/6375648631/in/photostream)

WRC Wales Rally GB 2011 | Flickr*: partage de photos*! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/robpackham/6375646099/in/photostream)

[Mirek]

I have one note regarding fences, please, no fences they are much more dangerous to the crews if they are lighter, then they can be dangerous to spectators (when flying around) and also reducing visibility and therefore forcing spectators to spread more around stages.

very good point. Often the too strict spectator regulation works exactly opposite than it should. If people are gathered into boring/distant/overcrowded places they tend to move elsewhere and therefore out of direct control. Always there are people like me who walk through stages somewhere far from crowds but definitely it is possible to keep most of common spectators in well-controlled areas. These places just need to worth visiting.

[MrJan]

Just found this shots of the photographer next to Kruuda. WTF!

WRC Wales Rally GB 2011 | Flickr*: partage de photos*! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/robpackham/6375648631/in/photostream)

WRC Wales Rally GB 2011 | Flickr*: partage de photos*! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/robpackham/6375646099/in/photostream)

Even though I was stood next to the guy taking this photo I'm still amazed by that!! Flodin (the car before Kruuda, iirc) also ran wide after turning in and then correcting.

Here's another photo I took of the same chap and his mate before they got really ballsy and moved to where that Kruuda pic was taken. Bear in mind that the next driver through was Tanak, the kind of driver that you want to stand well back to enjoy! ;)
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6091/6340686429_beca02b397_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrjanyeo/6340686429/)
IMG_3104 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrjanyeo/6340686429/) by Jan Yeo (http://www.flickr.com/people/mrjanyeo/), on Flickr

See also some other idiots with a flag (even worse when you realise that the driver is Matt Wilson :eek: ):
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6235/6341416816_9af9b39dda_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrjanyeo/6341416816/)
Wilson (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrjanyeo/6341416816/) by Jan Yeo (http://www.flickr.com/people/mrjanyeo/), on Flickr

[Doon]

Awesome pictures in the last couple of posts! I like to get close to the cars to get a real buzz, but the positions of some people is just crazy. Bet he had a great day out though.

Anyway, if there were no spectators I don't think many sponsors would be interested in the sport and why would car manufacturers spend millions to field cars when no one can see them? I pay for my own Rallying (because I have a cheap car and no one would sponsor me anyway!), but many need sponsors to support their habbit in all forms of the sport.

[tfp]

Just found this shots of the photographer next to Kruuda. WTF!

WRC Wales Rally GB 2011 | Flickr : partage de photos ! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/robpackham/6375648631/in/photostream)

WRC Wales Rally GB 2011 | Flickr : partage de photos ! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/robpackham/6375646099/in/photostream)

What a muppet! Reminds me of that joker than Colin Mcrae nearly flattened.

[BDunnell]

Charge them at least £20 per stage.

How would that solve anything? Is there any correlation between amount spent on an activity and level of common sense displayed by the person making that spend? I could go on.

[6789]

Why would you want to stand that close anyway? You're not going to end up with a good photo.

Rally spectating in Australia is very difficult, you are tied off into a small area behind trees so do see alot. That's why people will ignore the spectator points and go find their own places via access roads.

I think barriers is alittle over the top, people need common sense to not stand on the inside o corners like that. I have a similar photo which I can post from Aus

[Hartusvuori]

http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2011/wrc/fi/mr_c_271_brynildsen_1.jpg

Brynildsen's crash scared the hell out of me in Rally Finland. I was some 15-20 metres forward from the picture. Luckily the car bounced back on the road. Afterwards I've been thinking how I didn't react at all since I kept standing on the same place - official area - and two more crashes happened soon. Next year if the stage is run, I bet the spectators area won't be were it was.

[BDunnell]

Forgive me for asking what might seem a naive question, but is this sort of thing becoming more common?

[MrJan]

Forgive me for asking what might seem a naive question, but is this sort of thing becoming more common?

No. Watch a few Group B vids to see that. It's not just events in Portugal either (although those are insane), it was common for large crowds to be stood in stupid spots.

[BDunnell]

No. Watch a few Group B vids to see that. It's not just events in Portugal either (although those are insane), it was common for large crowds to be stood in stupid spots.

In fact, I wasn't thinking about a comparison with the Group B days — there were clearly problems then. But is it my imagination that things did eventually come to improve, and have since deteriorated.

[MrJan]

In fact, I wasn't thinking about a comparison with the Group B days — there were clearly problems then. But is it my imagination that things did eventually come to improve, and have since deteriorated.

It's hard to say. Perhaps I've noticed a few more idiots about recently, but so many rallies are more restricted that you tend to be watching alongside more people. And the more people you're watching with, the more likely it is that you're next to an idiot.

That said I watched at a similar spot on RallyGB this year as I did on my first WRC event 10 or 11 years ago and it was much stricter then, perhaps because there were more marshalls in that position than in the spot I watched this year.

[sollitt]

What a bunch of wowsers and sanctimonious do gooders you people are.
One of the attractions of attending and watching the WRC rounds is the ability to get right up close to the action.
Herding spectators like sheep into pens is simply not the name of the game and likely does more to drive people away than anything else.
In fact, in nearly 40 years involvement in the sport, by far the majority of incidents I've seen involving spectators being hit by rally cars have ocurred in organised areas or areas where there are large numbers of people gathered together.
Indeed I cannot recall such an incident involving a lone spectator at all.
The freedom to move about and react quickly is the adventurous spectators security blanket. Long may it be so!

[N.O.T]

What a bunch of wowsers and sanctimonious do gooders you people are.
One of the attractions of attending and watching the WRC rounds is the ability to get right up close to the action.
Herding spectators like sheep into pens is simply not the name of the game and likely does more to drive people away than anything else.
In fact, in nearly 40 years involvement in the sport, by far the majority of incidents I've seen involving spectators being hit by rally cars have ocurred in organised areas or areas where there are large numbers of people gathered together.
Indeed I cannot recall such an incident involving a lone spectator at all.
The freedom to move about and react quickly is the adventurous spectators security blanket. Long may it be so!

i must say i disagree with that, i find the solution of creating spectator pens stupid as well but i think basing the security of the spectators on their reflexes is a bit risky.

The best solution is simply more and most of all well educated marshals...in that way you diminish the chance of a serious accident to happen because of stupidity (although i am a big fan of natural selection but, i do not like events to get cancelled because of stupid people) and you just have those that will happen due to just a freak accident (flying parts ects) which are very very rare.

[AndyRAC]

What a bunch of wowsers and sanctimonious do gooders you people are.
One of the attractions of attending and watching the WRC rounds is the ability to get right up close to the action.
Herding spectators like sheep into pens is simply not the name of the game and likely does more to drive people away than anything else.
In fact, in nearly 40 years involvement in the sport, by far the majority of incidents I've seen involving spectators being hit by rally cars have ocurred in organised areas or areas where there are large numbers of people gathered together.
Indeed I cannot recall such an incident involving a lone spectator at all.
The freedom to move about and react quickly is the adventurous spectators security blanket. Long may it be so!

I understand your view – but particularly on International events here in the UK, insurance demands ‘spectator areas’. It’s not as bad as it was when they were first brought in, which was about 2002 – when there were lots of spectators in a small area - which is just as dangerous; no room or time to react.
National events, however are far better to watch....lots more freedom...

[Dug83]

http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2011/wrc/fi/mr_c_271_brynildsen_1.jpg

Speaking of spectator safety, are those 2 guys on the ladder leaning on a power cable? It looks like its made of wood so I guess they put a bit of thought into it. :eek:

[Dug83]

http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2011/wrc/fi/mr_c_271_brynildsen_1.jpg

Brynildsen's crash scared the hell out of me in Rally Finland. I was some 15-20 metres forward from the picture. Luckily the car bounced back on the road. Afterwards I've been thinking how I didn't react at all since I kept standing on the same place - official area - and two more crashes happened soon. Next year if the stage is run, I bet the spectators area won't be were it was.

Speaking of spectator safety, are those 2 guys on the ladder leaning on a power cable? It looks like its made of wood so I guess they put a bit of thought into it. :eek:

[Hartusvuori]

Speaking of spectator safety, are those 2 guys on the ladder leaning on a power cable? It looks like its made of wood so I guess they put a bit of thought into it. :eek:


It's not a ladder, but a foot of power line tower. Not perhaps the brightest idea either to climb up there - though it could get very bright.

[BDunnell]

What a bunch of wowsers and sanctimonious do gooders you people are.
One of the attractions of attending and watching the WRC rounds is the ability to get right up close to the action.
Herding spectators like sheep into pens is simply not the name of the game and likely does more to drive people away than anything else.
In fact, in nearly 40 years involvement in the sport, by far the majority of incidents I've seen involving spectators being hit by rally cars have ocurred in organised areas or areas where there are large numbers of people gathered together.
Indeed I cannot recall such an incident involving a lone spectator at all.
The freedom to move about and react quickly is the adventurous spectators security blanket. Long may it be so!

I don't actually see any sanctimony here at all. I agree totally that spectator pens are a bad thing, but this does not mean that everyone is going to behave sensibly when allowed to roam freely, nor that those who take advantage of the ability to do so are somehow immune from criticism if they choose to stand in an unsafe place. By your reckoning, it would be sanctimonious to criticise the behaviour of spectators on the Sintra stages in Portugal in the 1980s.

[Mirek]

In fact, in nearly 40 years involvement in the sport, by far the majority of incidents I've seen involving spectators being hit by rally cars have ocurred in organised areas or areas where there are large numbers of people gathered together.
Indeed I cannot recall such an incident involving a lone spectator at all.
The freedom to move about and react quickly is the adventurous spectators security blanket. Long may it be so!

I'm sorry to tell You that but it's not true. In last three years I was twice very close to a deadly accident and in both cases it happened with lonely small group of people. Once three (all dead), once something like five (two dead). In second case they were even not just next to the road but were hit by a car which prior that hit a pole and changed it's rolling direction.

It's true that they all were in extremely dangerous places. Mostly they were totally unexperienced spectators who were on their first event (except one in the second case who was just crazy fan). This is what the discussion is about. I agree with You that the rules for spectators should not be extremely strict (I always go somewhere out of crowded areas too) but You need to keep some actions for common crowds of people. They don't have experience, often don't see even basic physic laws and moreover they are largely drunk. But as I said before the areas for them must be made that way to be worth visiting. If they shall go to a place fifty meters from The road behind trees, they will run to all directions and that is a problem because these are the most dangerous groups of spectators.

[Bolton Midnight]

That's the spirit, kill off a dying sport.




How would that solve anything? Is there any correlation between amount spent on an activity and level of common sense displayed by the person making that spend? I could go on.

Charging speccies and therefore reducing their numbers won't harm the sport at all, speccies are just a headache for organiser they bring nothing to the sport other than hassle / cost and litter.

The entrants pay to entertain spectator parasites, why not marshal instead of spectate or would that require a bit of effort / commitment?

[Bolton Midnight]

What a bunch of wowsers and sanctimonious do gooders you people are.
One of the attractions of attending and watching the WRC rounds is the ability to get right up close to the action.


And what about the crew of the car that kills a clueless spectator?

What about their feelings?

[MrJan]

The entrants pay to entertain spectator parasites, why not marshal instead of spectate or would that require a bit of effort / commitment?

The sponsors pay the entrants to advertise, you can't do that when no one wants to watch the sport. Even someone like Perez (who pays his own way) will have had a half decent income from the number of VK bobble hats (alright, baseball caps) that he's sold. The less spectators, the less hats/scarfs/coats sold.

Commitment is the main reason why I don't marshall, there aren't that many events that fit in with other things that I'm doing (either work, football or sprinting), certainly not those within a distance that I'm willing to drive and spend fuel money on. Last year I did the Wyedean, half a day at the Somerset Stages and one event on Epynt. Epynt is out of the question to marshall because I'd have to wake up before I went to bed to get there, on the times that I go to spectate we usually miss the first couple of stages anyway.

And the notion of entrants paying to entertain is just ridiculous, the drivers pay for their own enjoyment. If I said that did sprints for the good of other people then I'd be lying, I do it because I enjoy it.

[Bolton Midnight]

No they do not, you are in La La land if you think rally crews get enough sponsorship to cover the event, even a Nat B forest event will cost over 1k to do. AFAIK most VK hats are given free to marshals, but you'd not know that because your're too bone idle.

So basically lazy then? But you're quite happy for others to marshal bends so you can watch?

Speccies = freeloaders who bring nothing but hassle, they should pay for the privilege or naff off.

[MrJan]

No they do not, you are in La La land if you think rally crews get enough sponsorship to cover the event, even a Nat B forest event will cost over 1k to do. AFAIK most VK hats are given free to marshals, but you'd not know that because your're too bone idle.

So basically lazy then? But you're quite happy for others to marshal bends so you can watch?

Speccies = freeloaders who bring nothing but hassle, they should pay for the privilege or naff off.

Speccies do pay for the privelege, just not £20 a stage. At the lower levels of course sponsors don't offer much, most people just use the car to advertise their own business. But at the higher levels there is cash going in, and without that the sport at the highest level will cease to exist. When that happens people become less interested in the lower levels, therefore less people spectate, less people get into the sport and choose to marshall, less people get into the sport and choose to drive etc. etc.

Not quite sure how not being able to afford time/petrol/hotels equates to laziness though, you'll have to explain that one to me step by step.

Incidentally next time you're out marshalling try asking your fellow marshalls whether they spectated before they got into marshalling.

Edit: Oh and please quote me where I said that sponsors 'cover' the costs of an event. It may be through garage space, advice, parts, discounts etc. but every little helps, doesn't it.

[Lousada]

He's right though in the sense that more and more organisers are adopting the Bernie Ecclestone school of thought: better to have 1000 people paying 20 quid, than 10000 people paying 2 quid, or 100000 people paying nothing. This is a very dangerous development for the long term health of the sport.

[Bolton Midnight]

Commitment is the main reason why I don't marshall

err

bone idle like I said, if it was a money issue you'd have said so first, you didn't so don't try and move the goalposts now.

Tele pays at the top level not bobble haters clogging up the surrounding roads etc and generally making a nuisance of themselves dropping litter and the like.

Speccies could all naff off and it would do nothing but help the sport of rallying.

Don't go to the Wyedean stay at home.

[MrJan]

err

bone idle like I said, if it was a money issue you'd have said so first, you didn't so don't try and move the goalposts now.

Tele pays at the top level not bobble haters clogging up the surrounding roads etc and generally making a nuisance of themselves dropping litter and the like.

Speccies could all naff off and it would do nothing but help the sport of rallying.

Don't go to the Wyedean stay at home.

I did say at first.


there aren't that many events that fit in with other things that I'm doing (either work, football or sprinting), certainly not those within a distance that I'm willing to drive and spend fuel money on

And does tele really pay for the top level? You may want to tailor your response according to this weeks news regarding the lack of a promoter.

It's funny really, in the sprinting/hillclimb world all the drivers are happy for people to come and watch, spending time to talk to the public throughout the day and answer any questions, usually with a view to encouraging them into the sport. Rallying seems completely different, most of the drivers hate spectators and would rather insult them than offer advice.

[Bolton Midnight]

No you did not, first is the first thing you stated not the last thing! My 8 year old wouldn't make sure a glaring error.

They need the tele or why should the teams spend what they do just to get coverage, the lack of a promoter is one thing, lack of tele is an all together different kettle of fish. Look at F1 it is tele that has raised the budgets pre Bernie teams could win races out of lumber yards.

I don't mind speccies when competing as once in a blue moon they may help you back on the track. And 99% of rally folk are nothing but friendly to speccies as long as they don't get in the way. Would you be so keen to chew the fat with one if they had leant on your car and damaged it, same as if they made us late into a control by cluttering up the countryside. It's when organising I wish they'd all naff off. They bring very little to the sport yet require massive amounts of work to deal with them.