Construction at Austin track suspended

[DBell]

Circuit owners announce the suspension of construction of the Circuit of Americas track.

FORMULA ONE - F1: US GP In Question As Work Suspended At COTA (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-us-gp-in-question-as-work-suspended-at-cota/)

Texas State Comptroller Susan Combs says no state funds will be paid out before the Austin GP.

FORMULA ONE - F1: State Funding For US GP At Austin Under Threat (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-state-funding-for-us-gp-at-austin-under-threat/)


It doesn't look good for this event happening. I hope things go better in New Jersey.

[Nem14]

Stick a fork in it. Let the lawsuits begin.

The market in and around New Jersey is substantially larger than the market in and around Austin, Texas.

[truefan72]

I am beyond pissed at that troll bernie

firs tI heard his somewhat baffling comments over the weekend about no faith in Austin
then I find out they had not even given them the official contracts

I'm telling you that F1 is going to be in serious trouble here if they try to back out of Austin
No Austin means legal action, which means no NJ GP either, which means a highly publicized law suit with very justifiably pissed of parties who seem to have been sold a scam

Red Mcombs in no pushover and certainly won't take this lying down. If Bernie thinks they can brush them aside, he has another thing coming

I should not be surprised that Bernie would screw this up, just when everything seem to be going well

what a mess, what stupidity

[00steven]

Stick a fork in it. Let the lawsuits begin.

The market in and around New Jersey is substantially larger than the market in and around Austin, Texas.

Yeah it's looking like it's over before it can even begin.

[DexDexter]

I am beyond pissed at that troll bernie

firs tI heard his somewhat baffling comments over the weekend about no faith in Austin
then I find out they had not even given them the official contracts

I'm telling you that F1 is going to be in serious trouble here if they try to back out of Austin
No Austin means legal action, which means no NJ GP either, which means a highly publicized law suit with very justifiably pissed of parties who seem to have been sold a scam

Red Mcombs in no pushover and certainly won't take this lying down. If Bernie thinks they can brush them aside, he has another thing coming

I should not be surprised that Bernie would screw this up, just when everything seem to be going well

what a mess, what stupidity

Are you absolutely sure that it's Bernie's fault? I wouldn't start accusing him with the amount of information we have. Talking about trouble, F1 has no activity in the States and its finances do not come from there so in order to get into trouble you need a race and presense, which hopefully will happen in the future.

[Knock-on]

I was concerned that the circuit was in trouble after Bernie's comments at the weekend.

We don't know what or who is to blame for this fiasco but it appears that funding that needed to materialise hasn't for some reason. It could be that the funding fell through because the contract wasn't finalised or it could be that the contract fell through because commitments were not met. We just don't know and until some evidence comes through, we are just guessing.

However, the parallel with Donington might be drawn :s

[zako85]

I have two theories..

1. Having arranged the New Jersey race for 2013, which is arguably in a bigger market, Austin is being dropped as a venue with less profit potential to clear space for other money makers (Russia, etc).

2. This event always depended on state and local government money. There were many of opponents of this event because the state of Texas had to dole out a lot of money to fund it. Perhaps they're having an upper hand now? There is some scarce but interesting info on the wikipedia article. I chucked when I read: "In June 2011, the Austin city council endorsed the United States Grand Prix, with a vote of 5-2. As a part of the endorsement, the sport will pay $15,000 in carbon offsets and $5 million to establish an on-site research project into environmentally-friendly technologies." Gotta love the politics of liberal city councils...

[DexDexter]

I have two theories..

1. Having arranged the New Jersey race for 2013, which is arguably in a bigger market, Austin is being dropped as a venue with less profit potential to clear space for other money makers (Russia, etc).

2. This event always depended on state and local government money. There were many of opponents of this event because the state of Texas had to dole out a lot of money to fund it. Perhaps they're having an upper hand now? There is some scarce but interesting info on the wikipedia article. I chucked when I read: "In June 2011, the Austin city council endorsed the United States Grand Prix, with a vote of 5-2. As a part of the endorsement, the sport will pay $15,000 in carbon offsets and $5 million to establish an on-site research project into environmentally-friendly technologies." Gotta love the politics of liberal city councils...

I don't think your first theory is correct since Bernie wants two US GPs, not one. And it's not about profit, the 25 million sanction fee for Austin is considerably less than many other races are willing to pay. And BTW the sanction fee doesn't go into Bernie's pockets as many like to say over and over again, the teams get a lot of it ( will probably get more in the future).

[D28]

A little more information has surfaced, see Austin Grand Prix plunged into doubt after track construction is stopped in dispute over race contract - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96246).

Seems the dispute is between two Austin parties, the ones who own the rights to hold the race dealing with Bernie, and the builders of the track. The contract has to be transferred from the first to the second.

It is compicated, and we can not know exactly what is happening, but a couple of things can be surmised.

The Austin people cannot have been overjoyed to see Bernie deal with the NJ promoters, even before they had ever held a race. It is one thing to market an unique US Grand Prix, like almost every other country, and to market something like USGP West.
It is unbelievable that the circuit group would spend millions building the venue without a firm contract from Bernie guaranteeing the race, as seems to be the case.
I am forever amazed that Bernie can get any American group to deal with him, given his record of the last 25 years.
We will know soon enough if the race is on next years's calendar.

[Malbec]

I am beyond pissed at that troll bernie

firs tI heard his somewhat baffling comments over the weekend about no faith in Austin
then I find out they had not even given them the official contracts

I understand it differently, that the race organisers are the ones who hold a contract with Bernie for a race in the US, but have not passed on the contract to the circuit builders/owners.

This is a tiff between these two parties and Bernie can't do much beyond banging heads together.

[EDIT I see D28 beat me to it]

[Knock-on]

Load of bluff and bluster. They just need to sort this out.

Can't see how anyone's blaming Bernie for this p*ssing contest though :confused:

[Knock-on]

I understand it differently, that the race organisers are the ones who hold a contract with Bernie for a race in the US, but have not passed on the contract to the circuit builders/owners.

This is a tiff between these two parties and Bernie can't do much beyond banging heads together.

[EDIT I see D28 beat me to it]

Great minds think alike. I hadn't actually read this as it took longer to write mine than it seemed. Got distracted by the eye candy on Countdown. Cheeky little black dress with an animal print top today :D

BTW, they are in real trouble if the countdown clock is anything to go by :D

http://www.fullthrottleproductionslp.com/countdown/index.html

[Dave B]

Great minds think alike. I hadn't actually read this as it took longer to write mine than it seemed. Got distracted by the eye candy on Countdown. Cheeky little black dress with an animal print top today :D

That Jeff Stelling is quite the little minx, isn't he? :p

[Dave B]

By the way (and completely off topic), did you hear about the time Carol Vorderman got her calculator stuck up her bum and had to work it out with a pencil? :eek:

[kfzmeister]

With talks of Carlos Slim pushing for a GP in Mexico, i wouldn't be surprised if Austin died down! I always thought Austin was strategically a good location for the US. Draw plenty of Muricans and a lot of South Americans. There's plenty of support for Perez, Maldonado and the other South-south Americans.
New Jersey will definitely be glamorous and if a Mexican GP happens that will take care of South America.

[Alfa Fan]

Austin cancelled Ecclestone ready to drop Austin GP from 2012 calendar as circuit disputes escalate - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96270)

[BDunnell]

Peter Windsor didn't turn up did he? :p

I was much looking forward to Jacques Villeneuve winning the inaugural GP at Austin for USF1. Now my hopes have been dashed.

[Osella]

At least DC drove around the track in a Red Bull before the dream was crushed lol.


Yeah, when I saw that I thought - now here's an idea!! Leave the track as it is and just hold the race on it as a dirt track - that would be awesome...!

On another note, I think Bernie probably had this whole scenario worked out.. He always wanted a race in New York, and go in giving the contract to Austin, all of a sudden he gets (to all intents and purposes) his New York race in under a year, surprise surprise..

What really p****s me off about it though is the sheer arrogance of people like Bernie saying 'well, it doesn't matter really, they can stay on the provisional calendar and then we can cancel it, or delay it a year, whatever really..' Well, what about people who live in/near Austin, who are looking for work, who are anticipating a race, who are/were putting in capital improvements in a difficult economic time to infrastructure, accomodation, hospitality, etc - then suddenly, there's no race, and a great white elephant on the horizon. And that's without mentioning those who (like myself) would not go to NJ for a race, but were actually looking forward to heading over to Texas for a combined holiday/race/etc..

Never mind solely the local support - if you want full grandstands, you will get them filled with travelling fans if your race is in the right place and on a decent track - just look at Spa and Monza.. Even Magny Cours drew a decent crowd, from all over Europe and I think Texas would have done the same.. But still, there's another street track. Yay.. F1 needs more of those.. :rolleyes:

[DexDexter]

Yeah, when I saw that I thought - now here's an idea!! Leave the track as it is and just hold the race on it as a dirt track - that would be awesome...!

On another note, I think Bernie probably had this whole scenario worked out.. He always wanted a race in New York, and go in giving the contract to Austin, all of a sudden he gets (to all intents and purposes) his New York race in under a year, surprise surprise..

What really p****s me off about it though is the sheer arrogance of people like Bernie saying 'well, it doesn't matter really, they can stay on the provisional calendar and then we can cancel it, or delay it a year, whatever really..' Well, what about people who live in/near Austin, who are looking for work, who are anticipating a race, who are/were putting in capital improvements in a difficult economic time to infrastructure, accomodation, hospitality, etc - then suddenly, there's no race, and a great white elephant on the horizon. And that's without mentioning those who (like myself) would not go to NJ for a race, but were actually looking forward to heading over to Texas for a combined holiday/race/etc..

Never mind solely the local support - if you want full grandstands, you will get them filled with travelling fans if your race is in the right place and on a decent track - just look at Spa and Monza.. Even Magny Cours drew a decent crowd, from all over Europe and I think Texas would have done the same.. But still, there's another street track. Yay.. F1 needs more of those.. :rolleyes:

So Bernie should just pay the bills and make the crowds happy? F1 is a tough business and if you don't have money to build a circuit and pay the sanction fee then you will not have a race and someone else will. This Bernie-hatred has gone way overboard particularly in this matter.

[D28]

From the Autosport link posted by Alfa Fan, Bernie talks a good line that the problems are solely the fault of the two promotion groups in Texas. Somehow I feel he is not telling us everything, I would like to hear the other sides to the story.

On Oct 30 I posted this story from NJ quoting Texas sources saying that the $25 M of public funds was conditional on Texas hosting the sole US Grand Prix, further that "the subsidy was no longer legal under state law".

N.J. hosting of Formula 1 race raises questions about Texas hosting with subsidies | NJ.com (http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/10/nj_hosting_of_formula_1_race_r.html)

I cannot believe that the announcement of the NJ deal for 10 years, and the halting of construction in Texas are not connected in some way.

[BDunnell]

And so much also for Tavo Hellmund making so much play of his excellent, long-standing relationship with Ecclestone, making him the person to bring a GP back to the United States.

[ShiftingGears]

It looked like such a good circuit as well. That is a shame if it never materialises.

[Shifter]

What I keep wondering is if the track even needs to be tied at the hip to hosting F1 initially? Would it be at all possible to build a track (perhaps even a shortened version to save $$), and go ahead and host everything else like the U.S. based series, concerts, events etc? Would it be possible to eventually turn a profit if the F1 sanctioning fees were lopped off the projected costs?

If so, then they could just make upgrades if they tried again in the future. At least we'd have something good come out of all this.

[martinbalmer]

What I keep wondering is if the track even needs to be tied at the hip to hosting F1 initially? Would it be at all possible to build a track (perhaps even a shortened version to save $$), and go ahead and host everything else like the U.S. based series, concerts, events etc? Would it be possible to eventually turn a profit if the F1 sanctioning fees were lopped off the projected costs?

If so, then they could just make upgrades if they tried again in the future. At least we'd have something good come out of all this.

Isn't MotoGP planning on going there?

[gloomyDAY]

This is reminiscent of the game Bernie played with Donnington Park and Silverstone.

Donnington Park = COTA

Silverstone = NJ

[nigelred5]

As I've read everything overthe past month or two, Tavo had the connections to get the F1 race contract via his personal friendship with BE, as well as the connections to get State funding. Tavo however was essentially not a financial stake holder in the TRACK. Epstein is the circuit owner and is, well from the sounds of it, a control freak and wanted sole control and ownership of the F1 race contract. From teh sound of it, he esentially wanted it for next to nothing. There was a story published a month or so ago about Hellemund asking the State events fund if transferring the race promotion would affect the $25M state funding.... Apparently the answer was not only YES, but the guaranteed funding went from 364 days before the event to not until AFTER the race, meaning not only would the promoters have to build the track, but pay formula one up front, out of their pocket. Tavo wanted to be paid for the race deals he landed, Epstein not only wouldn't pay what Tavo wanted, but F1 also would not give Epstein the same discounted sanctioning fees Tavo had recieved from Bernie. Bernie has an ace in the hole with the race he really wanted in the New York Metro Area. Tavo has just as many connections in Mexico as in Austin from what I've read, so he could just as easily talk Bernie into moving the race to Mexico where someone like Carlos Slim can pay for a new track out of his wallet change and get whatever government pemits he needs.

My concern quite honestly would be all the nastiness going on with the ongoing turf wars between the drug cartels. As much as I love Mexico and as many times as I've been down there, I'm going nowhere near most of Mexico anytime soon..

[nigelred5]

What I keep wondering is if the track even needs to be tied at the hip to hosting F1 initially? Would it be at all possible to build a track (perhaps even a shortened version to save $$), and go ahead and host everything else like the U.S. based series, concerts, events etc? Would it be possible to eventually turn a profit if the F1 sanctioning fees were lopped off the projected costs?

If so, then they could just make upgrades if they tried again in the future. At least we'd have something good come out of all this.

The developers of the track have answered that question with a firm ,YES. NO F1 contract, no track. They have no interest in building the track without the guaranteed ten year contract. Moto GP and V8 Supercars were to make some money. I suspect the MotoGP crowd in Texas would have ended up just as large as the F1 crowd. Wouldn't suprise me at all if the majority of this was a ruse to land the NY race BE really wanted.

It's a shame the track won't be built anyway, but there's huge race politics with TMS in Texas.

[nigelred5]

And so much also for Tavo Hellmund making so much play of his excellent, long-standing relationship with Ecclestone, making him the person to bring a GP back to the United States.

I don't think that is the problem. Its the relationship between Tavo and Epstein, the money man. Tavo landed the deal, but hte deal was only good beteween Bernie and Tavo, not Bernie and Epstein. Epstein doesn't rate the family discount.....

[D28]

Here is a link to Speedtv, which has a statement from Texas comptroller Susan Combs stating that no public funds will be paid in advance of a race. Also posted is her letter of May 2010 to Bernie appearing to say the opposite.

FORMULA ONE - F1: Combs Letter Promised Advance Payment For Austin Race (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-susan-combs-letter-promised-advance-payment-for-austin-race/)

Also there is the latest quotes from Bernie similar to the Autosport story. Seem like they have about 1 week to come to terms, or there is no contract, and no race.

A complicated situation for sure. Gentlemen start your lawsuits!

[Kevincal]

if f1 racing is going to be as contrived and ****ty as 2011, i couldnt care less about ANY of the races, let alone a new one...

[DexDexter]

if f1 racing is going to be as contrived and ****ty as 2011, i couldnt care less about ANY of the races, let alone a new one...

I know this thing gets to people but honestly, who cares what you think when the sport is easily the most popular form of motorsport in the world?

[Knock-on]

If the promoters and the owners cannot be in agreement about holding this event, then it's never going to work. Chuck into the mix that funding from the State seems to be dubious and it gets worse.

I suggest Bernies ultimatum is designed to get all parties around the table and see if they can work together or whether this is a potential disaster in the making that is always going to fail.

Personally, I agree with him 100%. If the parties involved cannot get this sorted, then it's best to can it now and cut the losses.

[Big Ben]

Can't see how anyone's blaming Bernie for this p*ssing contest though :confused:

It's quite easy actually. I blame MS too. I don't like him either.

[Knock-on]

:laugh:

Max must have his sticky pinkeys in there as well and I wouldn't bet against ioan and Tamburello being involved either.

I read it in the Daily Male. ;)

http://r9.fodey.com/2185/4510ed0c778348c0a5e2e4c6335cd71c.0.jpg

[DexDexter]

:laugh:

Max must have his sticky pinkeys in there as well and I wouldn't bet against ioan and Tamburello being involved either.

I read it in the Daily Mail. ;)

In my mind this whole Austin-thing must be an evil conspiracy by Bernie to piss off American fans. A pure evil mastermind at work. I mean the guy takes ransoms from willing payers and gives half of of the cash to the teams. How can he cancel a race if he is not paid? Who would do that? ;)

[wedge]

This is reminiscent of the game Bernie played with Donnington Park and Silverstone.

Donnington Park = COTA

Silverstone = NJ

Gotta hand it to BCE's business acumen. No wonder he BCE signed up with NJ quickly.

[anthonyvop]

This pretty much explains it all and I can't say I blame him.


“There's nothing to save. They can't bloody well pay," Ecclestone said. "What do you want me to do: Wait until next year? To put all our cars on it, run around the circuit and everything and come back with no money? The teams want paying.

“It's not brinkmanship; it never has been with me. I've been trying to do a deal now with these people for 18 months or more. ... If they had the money, I'm sure there would be no problem.”

Sexton: 2013 a possibility for Austin - Racer.com (http://www.racer.com/sexton-2013-a-possibility-for-austin/article/217032/)

[D28]

See here, latest news is a statement from the track owners that they are willing to postphone the race till 2013. No mention of any resolution to the contract dispute.

FORMULA ONE - F1: First GP Could Move To 2013 Says Austin Track Official (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-first-gp-could-move-to-2013-says-austin-track-official/)

[BDunnell]

This pretty much explains it all and I can't say I blame him.

If his version of events can be taken at face value. Easier said than done with Ecclestone.

[markabilly]

If his version of events can be taken at face value. Easier said than done with Ecclestone.

well when everyone gets to suing each other, and then the depositions start. When it comes to suing, down in Texas, it gets nasty, sometimes real nasty, so maybe Bernie will be talking, or maybe not...................




MEANWHILE, been bad couple of weeks.

First, the polls make it look like ole Perry is gonna be staying in Texas after all.... :mad: maybe he could run for president in Greece, make both places a lot smarter if he went there


but that Formula One ain't :(






may the buzzard lawyers feast on Bernie until nothing but bones are left and leave him in little droppings around their roost :vader:



maybe Perry could run for president in Greece, make both places a lot smarter if he went there

[SGWilko]

well when everyone gets to suing each other,

An American, suing someone? Now that's a novelty.

If they could, them yanks'd sue their own foot for causing a stubbed toe.....

[Robinho]

its Donington all over again, either sort a contract, payment and terms in advace if building something or don't bother. Putting an event on the list for 2012 officially and then the whole thing falling down does no-one any favours. If it was started speculatively to attract cash later then it shouldn't be on the ratified entry list. But this all looked official, site and permissions sorted, track layout sorted. Tilke and his merry men involved in design (i think), this sort of shambles should not be allowed to happen at this stage, and it shouldn't be done so publically

[D28]

I can't help feeling that the problems in Texas were exacerbated by the announcement of the 2nd GP in NJ. The Texas promoters didn't cause this to happen, Bernie did.
Certainly state comptroller Combs is using that as her main excuse for not paying $25 M before the race. She says:

"“The recent announcement of an annual Formula One race in New Jersey is a concern, as additional races have the potential to reduce the number of attendees to a Texas race, thereby decreasing the economic impact. Additionally, the reports of a slowdown in construction at the Circuit of the Americas, and recently publicized disagreements between the race rights-holder and the circuit developers have prompted speculation about whether the Austin race will even occur".

A 2nd race also complicates the search for a sponsor, which is desperately needed.

Latest news, a statement by Tavo Hellmund and an offer to drop out can be seen here:

FORMULA ONE - F1: Hellmund Tells His Side Of The Story (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-tavo-hellmund-tells-his-side-of-the-story-austin-us-gp-investors/)

[Knock-on]

I can't help feeling that the problems in Texas were exacerbated by the announcement of the 2nd GP in NJ. The Texas promoters didn't cause this to happen, Bernie did.
Certainly state comptroller Combs is using that as her main excuse for not paying $25 M before the race. She says:

"“The recent announcement of an annual Formula One race in New Jersey is a concern, as additional races have the potential to reduce the number of attendees to a Texas race, thereby decreasing the economic impact. Additionally, the reports of a slowdown in construction at the Circuit of the Americas, and recently publicized disagreements between the race rights-holder and the circuit developers have prompted speculation about whether the Austin race will even occur".

A 2nd race also complicates the search for a sponsor, which is desperately needed.

Latest news, a statement by Tavo Hellmund and an offer to drop out can be seen here:

FORMULA ONE - F1: Hellmund Tells His Side Of The Story (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-tavo-hellmund-tells-his-side-of-the-story-austin-us-gp-investors/)

What I don't understand is that you suggest it's Bernies fault but in the article you quoted, it says time and time again that Bernie has bent over backwards to accommodate COTA but they have defaulted on payments time and time again. Yet despite all this, Bernie is still holding the door open. Perhaps if he was American, he would have started legal proceedings months ago.

I really fail to see why he's getting the blame. It seems that America needs to look to itself and get it's house in order if it wants to be involved in F1 and stop trying to shift their problems onto others.

[Dave B]

What I don't understand is that you suggest it's Bernies fault but in the article you quoted, it says time and time again that Bernie has bent over backwards to accommodate COTA but they have defaulted on payments time and time again. Yet despite all this, Bernie is still holding the door open. Perhaps if he was American, he would have started legal proceedings months ago.

I really fail to see why he's getting the blame. It seems that America needs to look to itself and get it's house in order if it wants to be involved in F1 and stop trying to shift their problems onto others.

I tend to agree, but equally I do understand why people are wary of Ecclestone's word. He played the management of Donington like a cheap fiddle to force Silverstone to pull their finger out and finally build something which befits the 21st century, and he's certain got form in that area.

[ioan]

I don't think your first theory is correct since Bernie wants two US GPs, not one.

And you know that because he said so? :rotflmao: Sorry but sometimes I can't believe people are so gullible.

[ioan]

I really fail to see why he's getting the blame. It seems that America needs to look to itself and get it's house in order if it wants to be involved in F1 and stop trying to shift their problems onto others.

Right, all of US is at fault, so it can't be Bernie's fault. And Santa Claus lives somewhere near the North Pole.

[D28]

What I don't understand is that you suggest it's Bernies fault but in the article you quoted, it says time and time again that Bernie has bent over backwards to accommodate COTA but they have defaulted on payments time and time again. Yet despite all this, Bernie is still holding the door open. Perhaps if he was American, he would have started legal proceedings months ago.
I think there is enough blame to go around here. What I'm really suggesting, is had Bernie been content to focus on one USGP, get it up and running, before negotiating a 2nd race with other promoters, things may have worked out in Texas.
I mentioned this at the outset of the NJ announcement. We may never know what effect the 2nd race had, or if the Texas event was already doomed, but it couldn't have helped.

We see from the links the comptroller appears to renege on her committment for the $25 M as soon as the NJ parties atart boasting about "no public funds". What would you expect, a politician to explain to Texas taxpayers that they have to spend funds for a GP, while NJ puts on a 2nd GP without any?

I don't think the interests of US F1 supporters were helped by negotiating with two groups of promoters concurrently.
I think it is obvious that the NJ event would always be the preferred race for the F1 establishment, this did not help the case of the Texas promoters.

[Knock-on]

I tend to agree, but equally I do understand why people are wary of Ecclestone's word. He played the management of Donington like a cheap fiddle to force Silverstone to pull their finger out and finally build something which befits the 21st century, and he's certain got form in that area.

Oh,I agree mate. He's a devious little snake when he wants to be and the way he played Silverstone is a perfect example but having a race (or two) in America suits him (i.e there's lots or Dosh in it) . He's not to blame this time.

[Knock-on]

I think there is enough blame to go around here. What I'm really suggesting, is had Bernie been content to focus on one USGP, get it up and running, before negotiating a 2nd race with other promoters, things may have worked out in Texas.
I mentioned this at the outset of the NJ announcement. We may never know what effect the 2nd race had, or if the Texas event was already doomed, but it couldn't have helped.

We see from the links the comptroller appears to renege on her committment for the $25 M as soon as the NJ parties atart boasting about "no public funds". What would you expect, a politician to explain to Texas taxpayers that they have to spend funds for a GP, while NJ puts on a 2nd GP without any?

I don't think the interests of US F1 supporters were helped by negotiating with two groups of promoters concurrently.
I think it is obvious that the NJ event would always be the preferred race for the F1 establishment, this did not help the case of the Texas promoters.

But equally, the argument that people might not go to Austin if there was a race in NJ is rubbish. The UK is a pissy little country with 60M people but you could have half a dozen F1 races here and all would be packed. If a Country the size of the USA can't support 2 F1 races so geographically distant, then perhaps F1 isn't a good fit for the region.

[booger]

I feel sorry for the poor contractors who are the real ones who will be left holding the bag.

[D28]

But equally, the argument that people might not go to Austin if there was a race in NJ is rubbish. The UK is a pissy little country with 60M people but you could have half a dozen F1 races here and all would be packed. If a Country the size of the USA can't support 2 F1 races so geographically distant, then perhaps F1 isn't a good fit for the region.

The US sporting market is unique, any comparison to the UK is spurious at best; it is not a given that even 1 Grand Prix would be sucessful. It may be hard for people on the east side of the Atlantic to realize just how low a profile F1 has in the US. As I said before, there is a niche market for a GP in one location, not necessarily 2, or 3.

It is not so much that spectators would choose between the two locales, as you say they are miles apart, it is more about bragging rights to The US Grand Prix. It is no coincidence that problems with the $25 M public funds came up shortly after the NJ deal was publicized. Comptroller Combs is using that as a convenient excuse, but surely that $25 M would go a long way towards the sanctioning fee, would it not?

I think it was an extremely bad idea for Bernie to give the appearence of playing off Texas against the NYC region. Even if he is relatively innocent this time, his past negotiations are coming home to roost. He should have realized that Texans would never accept US GP of the Plains, or however it might be billed, when the main event would take place in the Big Apple. In his obsession to see a GP in NYC. I think he has totally misread the US market for F1, one more time.

[nigelred5]

I think there is enough blame to go around here. What I'm really suggesting, is had Bernie been content to focus on one USGP, get it up and running, before negotiating a 2nd race with other promoters, things may have worked out in Texas.
I mentioned this at the outset of the NJ announcement. We may never know what effect the 2nd race had, or if the Texas event was already doomed, but it couldn't have helped.

We see from the links the comptroller appears to renege on her committment for the $25 M as soon as the NJ parties atart boasting about "no public funds". What would you expect, a politician to explain to Texas taxpayers that they have to spend funds for a GP, while NJ puts on a 2nd GP without any?

I don't think the interests of US F1 supporters were helped by negotiating with two groups of promoters concurrently.
I think it is obvious that the NJ event would always be the preferred race for the F1 establishment, this did not help the case of the Texas promoters.



Austin is ~1800 miles from New York. The two races SHOULD have NO bearing on each other for sponsorship, promotion, fan base, anything. Can you even get that away from any of the races in Europe? Silverstone and Istanbul are what, roughly 1900 miles apart? Were they too close? Europe has what 7 races within a roughly 1000m radius? F1 should be able to support races in New York, Texas and California and draw over 100K for each. I don't know that New York is exactly a slam dunk for a crowdlike Indy saw at first. 150K people would be reasonable, but it sure will be easy to make 50K look like 150K in the New Jersey race site. What I think Bernie WAY OVERESTIMATES is the number of people in this country that will pay on average $500 or more per ticket for the race. For that money at a NASCAR or Indycar race, I'd be in a hospitality area, being served all day in a private suite, not pressin flesh to get a look through the chainlink. The Indy F1 race couldn't sell much over 100K at prices that were a fraction of that 10 years ago and that was in a good economy.

[Mia 01]

India made it they even has a driver in F1. Start with a driver and then get some money from Europe.

[DexDexter]

An American, suing someone? Now that's a novelty.

If they could, them yanks'd sue their own foot for causing a stubbed toe.....

Reminds me when runner Harry "Butch" Reynolds sued the IAAF (the world governing body for track and field) in Ohio (after given a ban) and was awarded $27.3 million in damages. The IAAF stated that the ruling had no bearing upon the organisation and was invalid and ignored the whole thing. (It was later overturned as well). So it really doesn't work outside America.


And you know that because he said so? :rotflmao: Sorry but sometimes I can't believe people are so gullible.

Yep. Bernie cancelled/ will cancel the race because they didn't pay. Even you'll admit that Bernie listens to money. It's as simple as that. I read you bought a Renault recently. Did you pay for it? If you didn't, you're not going to be able to keep it.

[Jag_Warrior]

I guess it's just not meant for us to have an F1 race here. And I was shocked to hear of a second one, even though the first one hadn't gotten off the ground yet. But I'm now resigned to the belief that if I want to go to a North American F1 race, it will be in Canada. I had planned on going to Austin with my girl. It would have been her first F1 race. But now, after all of this foolishness, I wouldn't go if I could get us free tickets. If I take her anywhere, it will be to Montreal.

[nigelred5]

You are correct. I'd give the chances of the New Jersey race ever happening worse odds than Texas. Even worse odds yet of surviving if they do somehow run the first year. How many did CART draw at the Meadowlands? That was when CART was the premier form of motorsport in the US. Good luck with that title sponsor thing too, as long as the economy is in the dumper.

I fully agree. New York can be a lot like LA. If there's a big crowd, it won't be New Yorkers. If the prices are anywhere near what I think they will be, I'll likely be watching on TV. Bernie is counting on the international crowd in NY. There are so many other things to do, something essentially new to the area like racing is a tough sell. NASCAR, arguably the clear #1 form of motorsport in the US if not all of North America was run out of town. Indycars get nowhere. Stick and ball sports like the Yankees, Knicks and Giants are engrained in New York's sports culture, yet I can get walk up tix to Rangers, Nets and Mets games no problem. A region of over 20 million inhabitants can't sell out every event under the sun? I'm not even sure F1 will do well from a novelty perspective. Maybe it's the european nature of F1 that doesn't attact US fans, maybe we just aren't sucked in by the so called glamour of F1, or maybe its because Americans don't feel the need to host an F1 race just to prove our staure in the world's sporting community, especially when it comes to auto racing. Face it, most of the newer races added to the F1 calender are countries trying to prove they belong in the world's eye. Few to any have any domestic racing heritage. Many are simply trying to show that they are a nice tourist destination, trying to prove they are now an Economic powerhouse, or simply flat out flaunting their nauseating financial capital. We basically don't need Bernies circus for any of that. The US F1 fans that exist simply want to see a race close to home. The F1 teams are the ones that say they must have a US round or two because of the importance to their automotive sponsors. At this point, we're really only talking about Ferrari and Mercedes. Renault is taking a stab at relevance in the us by slapping a couple Infinity Logos on the RedBull. It might be cheaper and more effective to promise two tickets to Monaco for anyone buying a Merc or Ferrari than trying to land a race in the US. Bernie's never going to get a promoter in the US to pay anywhere close to the fees he is raping the Middle and Far east for a race long term, and even Texas has balked at supporting the Austin race. I'd hoped to attend both, I'll not hold my breath that either will happen. Honestly, I'd rather see someone dump $15m a year into Indycars for a season than twice that for a single F1 race.

I'm horrified at the prospect of a "Jerseylicious" crop of grid girls for Jersey GP! lol

[Knock-on]

This is the crux of the matter isn't it?

I appreciate it's human nature to want to blame someone and Bernie's an easy target because of his past shenanigans but isn't the sad fact that the US just isn't that bothered? How many people are criticising the Texan Administration for no committing the funds needed to make this happen. Surely if there was such a groundswell of support, then the Administration could justify the expense for the revenue it would generate.

I think the NJ race will go ahead but if the people behind the Austin race can't get their backing together, then it's really their own fault, isn't it?

[D28]

I agree with Nigelred5's assessment. Given that the NYC area has 20 m population, there is scant evidence that many of them are salivating at the chance to pay to watch a F1 race. Looking at comments on the proposed NJ race, I see some wildly optimistic predictions on ticket prices. The promoters at some point would hope to cover expenses, I think tickets would have to be much higher than $360 per wk-end for this to happen. Both Monaco and Montreal organizers go to some length with curtain/buffers to ensure that the lowest paying spectators cannot see much of the action. Spectators are nudged to grandstand seats for a decent view. Maybe someone familiar with the layout can comment on the problems of securing the area and ensuring that not too much of the viewing will be low cost.

[truefan72]

This is the crux of the matter isn't it?

I appreciate it's human nature to want to blame someone and Bernie's an easy target because of his past shenanigans but isn't the sad fact that the US just isn't that bothered? How many people are criticising the Texan Administration for no committing the funds needed to make this happen. Surely if there was such a groundswell of support, then the Administration could justify the expense for the revenue it would generate.

I think the NJ race will go ahead but if the people behind the Austin race can't get their backing together, then it's really their own fault, isn't it?

Well as it turns out ( as I suspected and posted earlier) Bernie is to blame
sending a revised, unrealistic and unfeasible contract to the Austin GP folks 2 weeks ago
well they singed the original contract and sent it to Bernie saying they are ready to post the sanctioning fee if he revises this new contract to the orginal terms discussed

It seems Bernie's plans were always in nYC and he used the Austin folks to get it.
This to me is borderline criminal behavior and cast further light on the legitimacy of this fool.

I don't care about how he used his strong arm tactics, bribery and whatnot to build up F1,
The fact is he has done ( and continues to do ) as much damage to the sport as he he is perceived to have brought it success.

Just like Max Mosley

[555-04Q2]

Well as it turns out ( as I suspected and posted earlier) Bernie is to blame
sending a revised, unrealistic and unfeasible contract to the Austin GP folks 2 weeks ago
well they singed the original contract and sent it to Bernie saying they are ready to post the sanctioning fee if he revises this new contract to the orginal terms discussed

It seems Bernie's plans were always in nYC and he used the Austin folks to get it.
This to me is borderline criminal behavior and cast further light on the legitimacy of this fool.

I don't care about how he used his strong arm tactics, bribery and whatnot to build up F1,
The fact is he has done ( and continues to do ) as much damage to the sport as he he is perceived to have brought it success.

Just like Max Mosley

Bernie is a *****, but he is also a very smart businessman.

[SGWilko]

Bernie is a *****, but he is also a very smart businessman.

I thought you were going to call Bernie a vajazzle. ;)

[ioan]

Well as it turns out ( as I suspected and posted earlier) Bernie is to blame
sending a revised, unrealistic and unfeasible contract to the Austin GP folks 2 weeks ago
well they singed the original contract and sent it to Bernie saying they are ready to post the sanctioning fee if he revises this new contract to the orginal terms discussed

It seems Bernie's plans were always in nYC and he used the Austin folks to get it.
This to me is borderline criminal behavior and cast further light on the legitimacy of this fool.

I don't care about how he used his strong arm tactics, bribery and whatnot to build up F1,
The fact is he has done ( and continues to do ) as much damage to the sport as he he is perceived to have brought it success.

I think karma will bite him soon for his ways.

[markabilly]

An American, suing someone? Now that's a novelty.

If they could, them yanks'd sue their own foot for causing a stubbed toe.....

No they would not. No money in it.

Now suing a hotel and getting $450, 000......well no problem.


Verdicts & Settlements September 15, 2008: Stubbed toe leads to $450,000 settlement. | LexisNexis | Professional Journal archives from AllBusiness.com (http://www.allbusiness.com/legal/evidence-testimony/12835638-1.html)




and bernie got money. and texas got lawyers.

[D28]

FORMULA ONE - F1: Ecclestone Not Optimistic About US GP In 2012 (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-bernie-ecclestone-not-optimistic-about-us-gp-in-2012/)

According to this link, the deadline for a decision on 2012 is set by Bernie for this Wed. Oddly enough, they are not arguing about payment for 2012, this is agreed on, but for future years.

[nigelred5]

The way I read all the reports, COTA tried to muscle Tavo out of the deal and wanted the $25 million state events funding and the 10 year race contract he had with Bernie. See the problems is, none of them has known BE personally for over 30 years. Teh state can't dsburse the funds more than 1year prior to the race. When hte race was delayed, that delayed when the money could be disbursed that Tavo needed for the sanctioning fee. The state comptroller got cold feet even after saying the funde would still be available, but on a different schedule. COTA wants the deal Tavo had. Bernie, being Bernie doesn;t give out the friends and family discount to folks that are muscling out his friends... Thus, COTA has agreed to the original deal and is now willing to pay for a 2012 race, but BE just plain doesn;t need them that much now. They now have less than zero leverage..

[D28]

The state can't dsburse the funds more than 1year prior to the race. When hte race was delayed, that delayed when the money could be disbursed that Tavo needed for the sanctioning fee. The state comptroller got cold feet even after saying the funde would still be available, but on a different schedule.

So the comptroller could have released the funds any time after June 2011. But this became a huge political problem for her as soon as the NJ promoters boasted of no public money for their event. This is the excuse she is sticking with, though it may be a convenient one. Still, other Texans mused of the problem of an non-exclusive USGP and the availability of the public funds as soon as the NJ anouncement was made.
Is this a fair summation of the public funds issue in your opinion?

[555-04Q2]

FORMULA ONE - F1: Ecclestone Not Optimistic About US GP In 2012 (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-bernie-ecclestone-not-optimistic-about-us-gp-in-2012/)

According to this link, the deadline for a decision on 2012 is set by Bernie for this Wed. Oddly enough, they are not arguing about payment for 2012, this is agreed on, but for future years.

That's because the real money comes from long term contracts which secures the sport and increases the value of the true money maker in all sports now...TV Rights!

[555-04Q2]

No they would not. No money in it.

Now suing a hotel and getting $450, 000......well no problem.


Verdicts & Settlements September 15, 2008: Stubbed toe leads to $450,000 settlement. | LexisNexis | Professional Journal archives from AllBusiness.com (http://www.allbusiness.com/legal/evidence-testimony/12835638-1.html)




and bernie got money. and texas got lawyers.

Only in the US can an idiot be awarded $450,000 for being an idiot!

[call_me_andrew]

Only in the US can an idiot be awarded $450,000 for being an idiot!

At the risk of taking this off topic: He wasn't awarded anything. The hotel settled for $450,000. There's a difference between a judge saying a person can get $450,000 for stubbing his toe, and a buisness saying a person can get $450,000 for stubbing his toe.

[DBell]

So the comptroller could have released the funds any time after June 2011. But this became a huge political problem for her as soon as the NJ promoters boasted of no public money for their event. This is the excuse she is sticking with, though it may be a convenient one. Still, other Texans mused of the problem of an non-exclusive USGP and the availability of the public funds as soon as the NJ anouncement was made.
Is this a fair summation of the public funds issue in your opinion?

I think that is a fair summation. From what I've read, once the Jersey race was announced, it changed the availablity of the funds due to the way the Texas law is written.

[D28]

Meanwhile Bernie has extended the deadline for a few more days, but the schedule is to be finalized Wed Dec 7. Not much time left.

[Knock-on]

Meanwhile Bernie has extended the deadline for a few more days, but the schedule is to be finalized Wed Dec 7. Not much time left.

Nasty Bernie, bad Bernie.

Always trying to scupper the poor Austin deal ;)

[nigelred5]

So the comptroller could have released the funds any time after June 2011. But this became a huge political problem for her as soon as the NJ promoters boasted of no public money for their event. This is the excuse she is sticking with, though it may be a convenient one. Still, other Texans mused of the problem of an non-exclusive USGP and the availability of the public funds as soon as the NJ anouncement was made.
Is this a fair summation of the public funds issue in your opinion?

Generally, except I my understanding is the Texas law regarding the special events funding says the funds cannot be applied for more than 365 days prior to the actual event. Once the date was changed, that became a new event, requiring a new application, but more importantly allowing the remainder of the events taht followed to cascade. I supect the tell tale was when reports arose that Tavo was inquiring as to the effect a change in leadership would have on the funds. It wasn't the who, but more the when that was an issue.

[555-04Q2]

At the risk of taking this off topic: He wasn't awarded anything. The hotel settled for $450,000. There's a difference between a judge saying a person can get $450,000 for stubbing his toe, and a buisness saying a person can get $450,000 for stubbing his toe.

I know what you mean :) but it's far better to "settle" for $450,000 than be "forced" by a judge to pay $1,000,000 ;)

"Living in America..." :p :

[SGWilko]

No they would not. No money in it.

Now suing a hotel and getting $450, 000......well no problem.


Verdicts & Settlements September 15, 2008: Stubbed toe leads to $450,000 settlement. | LexisNexis | Professional Journal archives from AllBusiness.com (http://www.allbusiness.com/legal/evidence-testimony/12835638-1.html)




and bernie got money. and texas got lawyers.

I rest my case. How they don't forget to breathe sometimes amazes me..... .....it really does.

[nigelred5]

I rest my case. How they don't forget to breathe sometimes amazes me..... .....it really does.

It's been known to happen ;)

FWIW, civil lawsuits like that disgust me, and I've had plenty of opportunities where i could have filed and unquestionably won... SOME of us do accept personal responsibility over here.

[anthonyvop]

rumors are that Bernie and COTA have come to an agreement and the USGP is a GO for 2012!

[DexDexter]

rumors are that Bernie and COTA have come to an agreement and the USGP is a GO for 2012!

pitpass - Exclusive: Austin back on for 2012? (http://www.pitpass.com/45393-Exclusive-Austin-back-on-for-2012?)

Great news for American F1 fans, maybe?

[D28]

Austin circuit construction set to go ahead after Ecclestone deal - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96681)

See Austin race confirmed for 2012.

[nigelred5]

well, as we know, being on the schedule still is no guarantee it will happen, but it's progress. Now lets see how long it takes to actually build the place. being where it is, I''m not expecting much in the way of green landscaping, etc.,,,ever.

[driveace]

Reports in the news today say that the Austin track officials have now paid the money's to Bernies,and it's back on now !Line Bernies pockets and it happens !

[Blancvino]

This saga is far from over

[Nem14]

Yes. It seems there is still the issue of the $25 million that State of Texas is supposed to be kicking in?

[Knock-on]

Reports in the news today say that the Austin track officials have now paid the money's to Bernies,and it's back on now !Line Bernies pockets and it happens !

I really fail to see any merit in this resentment.

If Austin cannot make the payment to secure the race, then the teams cannot get paid to race there. Simple economics isn't it.

Do people expect to work for an employer without a contract or getting paid? No? Well, why do you resent Bernie and expect the teams to do so?

[lotus rules]

lets face it, texas isn't know for intelligent politics and they have been snowballed by bernies, er.. lets call it charm.
there will be two years of filled grandstands and then lots of empty seats from there on out, if even races get there. texas can't support a big race like the east coast can and the wealthy latin americans who they're counting on can just as easily go to new york or L.A. the only winners will be the local austin car nuts who will have a great local track to play on. lucky dogs!
texas messed up as usual: bernie is up in age with no apparent heir to the business to which he is a minority shareholder; the teams hate him and will eventually form their own series; and then what? watch bernie show up with a re-branded gp2 just to fulfill his side of the "bargain". this isn't a time for anyone to get into sponsoring a race and building a track. on top of that tilke sucks; once again he couldn't come up with an original and exciting track.

[Roamy]

Well if you think Lotus Rules then you should probably not be disparaging Texas Politicians !

[Bagwan]

Hey cowboy , what say you head on down there and sort this Austin issue out ?

[lotus rules]

Well if you think Lotus Rules then you should probably not be disparaging Texas Politicians !


lol! i am lotus rules because i own a lotus esprit, and soon an elise as well. :p :
they're not bad cars , and not a bad team either. personally i root for mclaren and now caterham F1! no ferrari teenage girl clique for me!
my comments on texas and austin race still stand.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

the teams hate him and will eventually form their own series;
Really? I haven't seen a single instance of the teams uniting together to attack Bernie Ecclestone. Most of them are usually full of praise for the way he has expanded the sport.

And they won't form their own breakaway series. The rival series that was touted in 2009 lasted for all of three days - and Bernie was going to go with them. It was designed to get leverage over the FIA, not Bernie.

I think you're projecting your own dislike of Bernie onto the teams, putting words into their mouths. It just goes to show how little you understand the sport.

[BDunnell]

Really? I haven't seen a single instance of the teams uniting together to attack Bernie Ecclestone. Most of them are usually full of praise for the way he has expanded the sport.

For which read 'how he has made them very rich'.

[nigelred5]

SOOO, back on topic, has anyone seen any construction updates since the ransome.. err sanctioning fee was paid?

[Prisoner Monkeys]

SOOO, back on topic, has anyone seen any construction updates since the ransome.. err sanctioning fee was paid?
All of these have been posted to the circuit's official Facebook page since the race was saved:

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/384604_341223522570661_219399881419693_1387827_122 802529_n.jpg

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/383235_341245212568492_219399881419693_1387874_531 786246_n.jpg

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/380374_350858974928654_157330087614878_1546619_105 1539467_n.jpg

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/390472_2694477615560_1665155620_2390345_1748640683 _n.jpg

[markabilly]

seems to be progressing. When I looked at google, it seems access is very limited by the road(s?) leading to the track

Will they be doing something about the roads?


30.132778,-97.641111 - Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=30.132778,-97.641111&spn=0.01,0.01&t=h&q=30.132778,-97.641111)

[markabilly]

well looks good to go....I am planning on the trip....

That is....until i saw the prices for a seat :eek: :eek:

even the stand-up out in the boonies without a seat are high. :crazy: too high

Better deal, with air fare, good seats and all, is to go to canada


(even with donKey's sister and momma raising their rates to a dollar a pop and working 24/7 plus, there aint't enough money to go...)

[donKey jote]

I wish I'd remembered last week that this Austin thing was even on the cards... I would have inspected the terrain a bit closer instead of visiting yer missus in the Hooters on Highway 35 :dozey:

[markabilly]

I wish I'd remembered last week that this Austin thing was even on the cards... I would have inspected the terrain a bit closer instead of visiting yer missus in the Hooters on Highway 35 :dozey:

yeah, your momma said she missed you....I told her to reload and take better aim.