Ford in big trouble

[SubaruNorway]

Mikko Hirvonen had caused a accident on the recce and a other entrant rolled his recce car. But niether Hirvonen ore Malcom Wilson will admit they had anything to do with it.

The story starts on the bottom of this thread and you need to log in.

http://www.britishrally.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3244&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20

[Roy]

What for troubles?

Can you put the story on this tread? I can't login with a hotmail.com account :\

[J4MIE]

Yup, from what I've heard it's disgusting what Mikko/Ford have done. And especially Marucs too.

It says that the police are investigating and may charge Mikko with careless driving.

[noel157]

Yup, from what I've heard it's disgusting what Mikko/Ford have done. And especially Marucs too.

It says that the police are investigating and may charge Mikko with careless driving.

This is the way the thread goes:

A private crew were doing their recce for Rally GB. They were driving a Shogun / Pajero. Came around a corner and met Mkko Hirvonen in his recce car who was on the wrong side of the road. The Pajero had to take avoiding action, went up a bank and rolled. Hirvonen failed to stop nor did Gromholm who was following a short distance behind. The crew were luckily not injured.
The crew then approached Malcolm Wilson who basically was not interested and referred to evidence etc. Many other things were said but Wilson and the crew failed to sort matters out.
The incident is now in the hands of the police and various approaches have been made to M-Sport and Ford management to try and resolve the matter.

Mods: I appreciate this is a sensitive matter so please feel free to moderate, if necessary.

[Roy]

Big trouble is a big word isn't?
I hope police can search this out. Soon and cleary.

[FrankenSchwinn]

This is the way the thread goes:

A private crew were doing their recce for Rally GB. They were driving a Shogun / Pajero. Came around a corner and met Mkko Hirvonen in his recce car who was on the wrong side of the road. The Pajero had to take avoiding action, went up a bank and rolled. Hirvonen failed to stop nor did Gromholm who was following a short distance behind. The crew were luckily not injured.
The crew then approached Malcolm Wilson who basically was not interested and referred to evidence etc. Many other things were said but Wilson and the crew failed to sort matters out.
The incident is now in the hands of the police and various approaches have been made to M-Sport and Ford management to try and resolve the matter.

Mods: I appreciate this is a sensitive matter so please feel free to moderate, if necessary.


wrong, as since it seems to have happened on the british isles it's the whole road system over there that is on the wrong side hence mikko and marcus are a-ok with me.

seriously, if that was true then the gps system would have been be able to prove it. you have to understand that ford/mikko/marcus/malcolm are very easy targets to get some cashmoneyhoney out of, so i am not surprised that malcolm told them to piss off. plus these wrc guys are carefully monitored even when doing recces and stopping like that could have caused them trouble. and again, it was in a pajero, what was the damage and the injuries? and it's not like that car is worth anything anyway! i also fail to see how this is "a sensitive matter".........


It says that the police are investigating and may charge Mikko with careless driving.

"careless driving", WOW! have the british police ever driven in italia? they should arrest the whole country! (except for the italian alpine people, they're cool). and is that the legal term? in the "infideland" they call it "reckless driving" which is much stronger language.

[Viktory]

very very disappointed in Mikko and Ford if this is true.

[COD]

There are a few things that need clarifying:

1. In the recce, all crews are allowed only to drive on the direction of the rally. So what was this Pajero doing coming to meet Hirvonen and how is it possible? If The Fords were driving opposite the rally direction, then the GPS tracker would show it and they would be punished by organisers.

2. Was this insident reported to organisers?

3. Trying to cash out on famous drivers and teams seems to happen from time to time (Henning Turkey for example). So any other evidence than the story of the Pajero driver???

[Larry_Japan]

I guess the British police don't know that most WRC crews record their day's recce-ing on an onboard DV camera, mounted from the driver's point-of-view, so they can check through the notes later. This would provide ample evidence...

[noel157]

Reading through the story it appears the incident happened on a liaison / public road section and there are some members of the public that witnessed the accident. I think, before we all get our Sherlock Holmes hats on (and pipes), it may be best to see what happens.

[J4MIE]

I don't think all recce crews carry a GPS for the recce - only selected crews?

[Tomi]

i dont see anything sensitive in this, the police is looking in whats happen, maybe he gets a fine if the story is true.

[Tomski]

Who is this "private" crew? As per normal everyone is quick to name & implecate Mikko, Marcus & Malcolm etc.

Let heat the "victims" side of the story, come on if your out there, speak up and name yourself, what have you to loose / hide?

[rallymaster]

I don't think the crew are members of this forum but they are not hiding from anything in the various posts on the other forum. The driver was Wayne Radford and was competing in a red evo 8 (i think)

[N.O.T]

I think the worst case senario will involve a fine for the ford team....thats hardly big trouble.

[Tumbo]

just have to be thankful that we haven't had another Bourne incident and wait patiently for a police finding

[Rally Hokkaido]

I don't think all recce crews carry a GPS for the recce - only selected crews?
There are no GPS systems like used in the rally cars fitted to recce cars.
Selected crews have a logging devices which record (and warn the driver) of
speed over a pre-set figure (stated in the sup regs) fitted to their recce car.

[Tomski]

Another thing to bear in mind is that most GPS based vehicle tracking systems arn't accurate enough to tell which side of a road the vehilce is on.

[Mad cat jnr]

wrong, as since it seems to have happened on the british isles it's the whole road system over there that is on the wrong side hence mikko and marcus are a-ok with me.

seriously, if that was true then the gps system would have been be able to prove it. you have to understand that ford/mikko/marcus/malcolm are very easy targets to get some cashmoneyhoney out of, so i am not surprised that malcolm told them to piss off. plus these wrc guys are carefully monitored even when doing recces and stopping like that could have caused them trouble. and again, it was in a pajero, what was the damage and the injuries? and it's not like that car is worth anything anyway! i also fail to see how this is "a sensitive matter".........



"careless driving", WOW! have the british police ever driven in italia? they should arrest the whole country! (except for the italian alpine people, they're cool). and is that the legal term? in the "infideland" they call it "reckless driving" which is much stronger language.

Are you being serious? Why would some one be sad and stupid enough to do that? And if he had made it up, wouldnt that mean that he could be in trouble also? Why not think about it logically?

[306 Cosworth]

Mikko should be banned from competing or have a very heavy fine imposed on him by the FIA! This is just crazy what he did and not even bothering to stop, i'm just glad he crashed out after SS1! Serves the bugger right

P.S There are some very stupid people commenting on this thread, read the british rally forum thread and it will all become clear. Don't type **** you don't know anything about!

[Mad cat jnr]

Well said Luke. And M- Sport should be dealt with too for telling the driver involved he should of drove head on into him :S

Joe

[Tomi]

Another thing to bear in mind is that most GPS based vehicle tracking systems arn't accurate enough to tell which side of a road the vehilce is on.

True but they are accurate enough to tell the direction.

[Magnus]

I agree with 306 Cosworth that incidents like this - if it is one at all - must be regarded as a serious violation, especially to the sport itself. It is very important that drivers keep speedlimits etc. because they are our "window" to the world. It is important that people not interested in rallying only have good things to say abt rallydrivers behaviour on publich roads.

The sport as a whole will face serious threats in the future due to environmental issues; lets not add further weight to that burden.

[imull]

Well, we now know that Frankschwimm or what ever he is called it a plonker.

The accident happened on the public highway or the police wouldnt be involved. Its entirely possible that the crews would encountere each other going in the opposite direction due to the location on the stages. Due to your half arsed comment about driving on the left though, i guess you probably think we all live on a little island called Ingerland.

Take the time to look at the thread on the other forum and you'll see it isnt simply a wind up!

[White Sauron]

Mikko should be banned from competing or have a very heavy fine imposed on him by the FIA! This is just crazy what he did and not even bothering to stop, i'm just glad he crashed out after SS1! Serves the bugger right

P.S There are some very stupid people commenting on this thread, read the british rally forum thread and it will all become clear. Don't type **** you don't know anything about!

No one can blame Ford and Mikko! Do yuo have any prove? No. So don't say he's guilty!

[306 Cosworth]

No one can blame Ford and Mikko! Do yuo have any prove? No. So don't say he's guilty!

Ok so your saying that a privateer competitor on WRGb deliberatley rolled their Recce car and blamed it on Ford and Mikko? Get with it :rolleyes:

[miksu]

why dont you guys just wait for what happens after hearings...

[imull]

miksu, go look at the other thread. Witness statements have been given if i remember correctly

[Tomi]

Witness statements have been given if i remember correctly
Isnt everything ok then, whats all the fuss, if things goes forward???

[Tomski]

Haiving now read the full contents of the other forum, I think the best thing we should all do is STOP acting as judge & jury when none of us has all the facts, that's the job of the Police, CPS and if required a court.

Let justice be done!

[Mr_xl_Lancia_lx_]

B/S is it fords fault

[Tomski]

B/S is it fords fault

Hanging judge Lancia!!

:rolleyes:

[White Sauron]

Ok so your saying that a privateer competitor on WRGb deliberatley rolled their Recce car and blamed it on Ford and Mikko? Get with it :rolleyes:

No, it was just his driving mistake, but he blamed it on Mikko.

[J4MIE]

Remember that nothing has been proven yet, so don't be too serious about your accusations either way...

[bowler]

who are we to judge?

we do not know everything that happened, and are only jumping to conclusions based on some people's opinions.

If the matter is in the hands of the Police or the Organisers, then it will be dealt with.

Idle speculation is nothing but trouble making.

[Tomski]

Here! Here!

[ste898]

I have never heard such a load of crap........this is nothing more than some clown trying to get money out of Ford !!

[306 Cosworth]

No, it was just his driving mistake, but he blamed it on Mikko.

So your saying the driving mistake was made by the person who was driving on the CORRECT side of the road, where as Mikko was DRIVING ON THE WRONG SIDE! Can you not read english properly, if not then f*** off, and Ste your a complete and utter idiot, do you seriously think someone would go to all that trouble to get money out of Ford, jeez get a life :rolleyes:

[306 Cosworth]

and are only jumping to conclusions based on some people's opinions.

Why would someone make up such a story like this? It's obvious they're not opinons they are facts!

[SubaruNorway]

I sure got a discusion going on here didn't i. Wasen't it going to be in some newspaper ore magazine this week interesting to see what kind of reactions that will bring

[306 Cosworth]

Yes it should be in the Motorsport News this Wednesday(but probably not because they'll be too scared to print it!), and then hopefully in Pacenotes Rally Newspaper next month.

[306 Cosworth]

Here is a quote from the co-driver in the car that Mikko caused to crash

The reason this is all one sided is because there is only one person who is clearly in the wrong, and it is Hirvonen.

Wayne and myself were doing about 35mph, we were on our side of the road, and he is a very competent driver.

End of.

[Daniel]

If this turns out to be true a large penalty should be given to Mikko, Ford and Gronholm.

If you run someone off the road you stop.

If you drive past a car that is on it's roof/side you stop.

If your employee is accused of doing something like this you investigate.


What Mikko is accused of doing is SERIOUS. I would be all for him going to court and taking the consequences if this is true. Causing an accident and then running from the scene is a serious offence.

What Wilson is accused of doing is also a serious offence. As an employer Wilson has the responsibility to investigate allegations like this and question his employee.

If this is at all true I hope Mikko, Ford and Gronholm are hung out to dry. A suspended jail sentence, large fine and a few rallies ban for him and a large fine and loss of points for Ford.

If I did this on the road to anyone I'd be in jail......... think about it. No one is above the law.

I stress this is all based on an "if" but there is little reason for someone just to roll their own car and then blame it on another driver....... where there's smoke there's fire I say!

[Tomi]

I agree with Daniel, but what i dont understand is what does this guy who flipped the car want, why is he crying about this issue on public boards if the police is already investigating :)

[Daniel]

I agree with Daniel, but what i dont understand is what does this guy who flipped the car want, why is he crying about this issue on public boards if the police is already investigating :)
People should also realise that this is VERY serious.

A friend of mine had a similar accident in a rally car and almost ended up 6ft under......

He was in a Hyundai rally car on a transport section after a stage when a guy in a Subaru Legacy came at him on the wrong side of the road very fast and hit him head on. I wish I had scans of what a normal road car can do to a fully prepared and caged rally car. The guy in the rally car got away with very serious injuries to his chest which are still with him today. All because someone didn't obey the road rules.

Sure if this happened everyone got away OK but what if it didn't end happy? What if people were in hospital with life threatening injuries.

Matt Wilson gets caught speeding a few times and peope think he's as bad as Hitler and Hirvonen is accused of something far worse and some seem to dismiss it as if it's a joke. I understand we don't know if it's true or not but I want serious punishment for all involved if this is true because Hirvonen is alleged to have caused a serious incident which could have ended up in serious injury or death for someone. It's not something the WRC needs or wants.

[Tomi]

offcourse it is, but why post about same thing every 15min, i think smarter would be to go and see Wilson, Hirvonen or Hirvonens manager, i doubt here is anyone who can help the guy.

[Daniel]

offcourse it is, but why post about same thing every 15min, i think smarter would be to go and see Wilson, Hirvonen or Hirvonens manager, i doubt here is anyone who can help the guy.
Well they did try to see Wilson but as an earlier post says he apparently didn't want to know anything about it. Which if the incident is true is quite worrying......

[Tomi]

well, the police is sorting it out hopefully, still dont think anyone here have even seen the incident.

[dune]

wrong, as since it seems to have happened on the british isles it's the whole road system over there that is on the wrong side hence mikko and marcus are a-ok with me.

seriously, if that was true then the gps system would have been be able to prove it. you have to understand that ford/mikko/marcus/malcolm are very easy targets to get some cashmoneyhoney out of, so i am not surprised that malcolm told them to piss off. plus these wrc guys are carefully monitored even when doing recces and stopping like that could have caused them trouble. and again, it was in a pajero, what was the damage and the injuries? and it's not like that car is worth anything anyway! i also fail to see how this is "a sensitive matter".........



"careless driving", WOW! have the british police ever driven in italia? they should arrest the whole country! (except for the italian alpine people, they're cool). and is that the legal term? in the "infideland" they call it "reckless driving" which is much stronger language.

as the party in question i take great offence, in that you think we are trying to get money out of them, we would have happily gone through insurance route if they had been honest, these guys only carry gprs which calculates speed not what side of the road they are on, it was a new shape shougun 10k to be sure the damage is a total write of, no serious injuries, its a sensative matter becuase if it had been a yyoung mum and children or elderly in the car they might not have had the awareness to put the car into a bank and been hit head on, what if it had been your children, parents vrother or family, are you just simply stupid

[dune]

There are a few things that need clarifying:

1. In the recce, all crews are allowed only to drive on the direction of the rally. So what was this Pajero doing coming to meet Hirvonen and how is it possible? If The Fords were driving opposite the rally direction, then the GPS tracker would show it and they would be punished by organisers.

2. Was this insident reported to organisers?

3. Trying to cash out on famous drivers and teams seems to happen from time to time (Henning Turkey for example). So any other evidence than the story of the Pajero driver???

1. 2 stages brechfa and trawscoed opened at the same time for recce so you could do either one we had done trawscoad and brechfa, and we were on our way to crychant, which is where the priority drivers were coming from as there recce followed a differant route.

2. yes to the recce manager john tevesthick, fred gallacher CofC, brechfa stage commander

3. we have 5 witnesses one who followed the m sport crews involved and the 5 drivers doing recce behind us who also had to take avoiding action after mika was driving on the wrong side of the road

[DonJippo]

What Mikko is accused of doing is SERIOUS. I would be all for him going to court and taking the consequences if this is true. Causing an accident and then running from the scene is a serious offence.

So far we have only one side of the story, personally I do not have any reason not to believe what has been written about the accident but at the same time I have to ask why would Mikko run from the scene if he saw the accident or Marcus not stopping there if he saw a car rolling off the road in front of him?

I can't imagine any reasonable reason for them to act in such a way. I will not believe that they did it knowingly, it just don't make any sense because there is no reason to behave like that, none. Therefore I really would like to hear also the other side of the story from Mikko and Marcus before starting to make any judgements about the incident.

[dune]

cut by request but please do not assume i`m in the wrong

[Daniel]

I haven't read your post fully yet Wayne but I think it's within your best interests not to post this on a public forum in full view of everyone :) If you ask a moderator can delete your post and in fact that whole thread if they see fit to do so.....

[dune]

i totally understand peoples point of view about seeing both sides of the story, but we did nearly hit marcus we have witnesses to how they were driving on the wrong side of the road immediatly after us and the gentlemen that folowed them for 10 miles.

i wish this could have been dealt with and be behind us none of this is in the best interest of rallying in the public eye, and for one i wish it had never happened

[dune]

I haven't read your post fully yet Wayne but I think it's within your best interests not to post this on a public forum in full view of everyone :) If you ask a moderator can delete your post and in fact that whole thread if they see fit to do so.....

daniel i dont really want to post anything but with people assuming i`m just trying to get cash from m sport and that i`m at fault and lying is not how i want to be portrayed i`m a decent hard working familly man who just wanted the truth and for this matter to be settled, every thing i have said is the truth and can be collaborated by witnesses

[Daniel]

So far we have only one side of the story, personally I do not have any reason not to believe what has been written about the accident but at the same time I have to ask why would Mikko run from the scene if he saw the accident or Marcus not stopping there if he saw a car rolling off the road in front of him?

Well rally drivers are a strange bunch. You have Marcus arguing that with a policeman in wales in 2003 that his car is safe to drive on the road when Marcus knows the policeman has to do his job and tell him not to drive it. Even I myself sometimes ignore important things hoping that they just go away and of course they never do. Sometimes it's also common for people to drive away from hit and run accidents because they are more worried about being caught for a silly mistake than the welfare of the other person. Of course I'm purely speculating in regards to what Mikko may have done.

I suspect that neither Mikko nor Wilson will post their views on this forum so sadly dune is all we have to go on and we'll never hear what the other side has to say other than maybe what's in a press release.

[Tomi]

Well rally drivers are a strange bunch. You have Marcus arguing that with a policeman in wales in 2003 that his car is safe to drive on the road when Marcus knows the policeman has to do his job and tell him not to drive it. Even I myself sometimes ignore important things hoping that they just go away and of course they never do. Sometimes it's also common for people to drive away from hit and run accidents because they are more worried about being caught for a silly mistake than the welfare of the other person. Of course I'm purely speculating in regards to what Mikko may have done.

I suspect that neither Mikko nor Wilson will post their views on this forum so sadly dune is all we have to go on and we'll never hear what the other side has to say other than maybe what's in a press release.

he did say nothing about the safety, he said he can drive the car when the police said he can not

[Daniel]

he did say nothing about the safety, he said he can drive the car when the police said he can not
OK perhaps so but you know what I mean :)

[Brother John]

Do you have nothing else to do?

One day are them all team managers here and now them are all judges or lawyer?

Regards
The JOKER :laugh:

[Mark]

If the allegations are true, then they are potentially extremely serious.

1. You do not drive on the right hand side of the road unless a. you are overtaking, and b. you can see the road to be clear. If you fail to meet these two criteria then it's dangerous driving, no question.

2. If you are involved in an accent you must stop.

Both are extremely serious offences, likely at very least to result in at least 6 points on the drivers licence, right up to disqualification, and in some cases, a prison sentance.

Lets hope for their sake these allegations are false.

[306 Cosworth]

How can everyone not believe the driver that was involved?

[cosmicpanda]

How can everyone not believe the driver that was involved?

by not jumping to conclusions and waiting for some word from M-Sport? :p :

[pauldrew]

I cant believe the cr*p being posted on here by a few muppets who are suggesting that wayne is just trying to get a few quid out of m-sport!?

I’m sure there are easier ways to get ten grand than rolling your new shogun 3 times giving yourself and your nav bad whiplash, leaving a paper trail of all your maps, pacenotes, etc down the road and then missing half the days recce and having to borrow another crew’s pacenotes? Not the best way to start your 1st WRC event.

The attitudes of both Malcolm Wilson and Fred Gallagher (CoC) disgusted me and things would’ve been totally different had it happened the other way around!

Too many people are commenting on this situation without knowing the facts. There are witnesses who saw the whole thing, and I think that its for the best that people who have no knowledge of what actually happened to stop speculating and wait to see what happens.

In the meantime we should be supporting wayne rather than knocking him!

[JAMESWRC]

People on this forum who dismiss these claims as rubbish or lies i just cannot believe. Why would someone go this far if it was all lies. Somepeople on here seem to think that Ford, Mikko are invincible or above the law which is just pathetic. If Mikko caused another car to roll and then didn't stop then that is disgusting behaviour and he needs to be reminded that he is not above the law.

[BDunnell]

I agree with 306 Cosworth that incidents like this - if it is one at all - must be regarded as a serious violation, especially to the sport itself. It is very important that drivers keep speedlimits etc. because they are our "window" to the world. It is important that people not interested in rallying only have good things to say abt rallydrivers behaviour on publich roads.

The sport as a whole will face serious threats in the future due to environmental issues; lets not add further weight to that burden.

Whatever the truth of the incident is, I agree absolutely with that viewpoint.

[Tomi]

I cant believe the cr*p being posted on here by a few muppets who are suggesting that wayne is just trying to get a few quid out of m-sport!?

I’m sure there are easier ways to get ten grand than rolling your new shogun 3 times giving yourself and your nav bad whiplash, leaving a paper trail of all your maps, pacenotes, etc down the road and then missing half the days recce and having to borrow another crew’s pacenotes? Not the best way to start your 1st WRC event.

The attitudes of both Malcolm Wilson and Fred Gallagher (CoC) disgusted me and things would’ve been totally different had it happened the other way around!

Too many people are commenting on this situation without knowing the facts. There are witnesses who saw the whole thing, and I think that its for the best that people who have no knowledge of what actually happened to stop speculating and wait to see what happens.

In the meantime we should be supporting wayne rather than knocking him!

Whats the problem with you guy's, why not wait till the police sort it out, sofar here is only one side of the story, or do you think it can be sorted out here?

[shurik]

Tomi, maybe because some of the members literally slander the guy typing bollocks about getting money from M-sport pocket?

[FrankenSchwinn]

hey kids, frank is here!

look a**hats, first off, the "wrong side of the road" thing is a fawking joke. you need help for thinking otherwise.
the comment about trying to get money out of ford is based on the fact that this "incident" concerned a driver, not a team. the only person who would be in trouble would be mikko, not his co-driver, not his team, not his car, not his mechanics, not his agent etc. i understand that the driver went to try to talk to wilson because malcom could have grabbed mikko by the colar and spanked him, but putting the blame on the team is nonsense. and understand that he told the driver to piss off simply because he probably gets this kind of talk every rally.
i agree with the don when he says that it's strange behavior even for a rally driver, and especially for a finnish driver. they might have caused the accident but i bet they didnt know about it, they probably just thought that the big ol' car went to the side of the road and that was that. plus, it is mentioned above that the driver also had to avoid marcus who was behind mikko. and so, after avoiding marcus he decided to take it to the field and flip it? i wouldnt know. and it's not a sensitive matter because there werent any moms or children or old people in the car and if it were my family they would have found mikko or his agent and talked to them instead of a public forum or media or whatever. if there was denial and i had witnesses i would have taken it to court, a real court. not some strange fictitious reality that is the internet and the "forums". and damage to the car only is hardly a reason for imprisonment. now, i dont blame the drivers if it was some other people who put it out to the forums instead of them, but they could have it taken off and kept that way with the push of a button. and that is why i will not give respect to these kinds of alegations and attacks on a forum.

i feed on your bashing me, the more you do it, the stronger i get. so keep it going boys! haha

[306 Cosworth]

Whats the problem with you guy's, why not wait till the police sort it out, sofar here is only one side of the story, or do you think it can be sorted out here?

I bet the polic won't even do anything, Ford will probably just be paid with a small fine, but if this gets into the british press then Mr Wilson will have a big problem on his hands.

[FrankenSchwinn]

p.s. dune, in your signature, it's spelled "believe"

[306 Cosworth]

Frank your an idiot end of.

[dune]

p.s. dune, in your signature, it's spelled "believe"


thank you frank, what would i do without you, all i wanted was a bit of politness and yes we are sorry about it it, and here are our insurance details, which i still have yet to receive, i would have never been seen or heard from again. so if i have caused you upset or loss of sleep i do apologise, but i just want good old fashioned justice.

[olisykes]

hey kids, frank is here!

look a**hats, first off, the "wrong side of the road" thing is a fawking joke. you need help for thinking otherwise.
the comment about trying to get money out of ford is based on the fact that this "incident" concerned a driver, not a team. the only person who would be in trouble would be mikko, not his co-driver, not his team, not his car, not his mechanics, not his agent etc. i understand that the driver went to try to talk to wilson because malcom could have grabbed mikko by the colar and spanked him, but putting the blame on the team is nonsense. and understand that he told the driver to piss off simply because he probably gets this kind of talk every rally.
i agree with the don when he says that it's strange behavior even for a rally driver, and especially for a finnish driver. they might have caused the accident but i bet they didnt know about it, they probably just thought that the big ol' car went to the side of the road and that was that. plus, it is mentioned above that the driver also had to avoid marcus who was behind mikko. and so, after avoiding marcus he decided to take it to the field and flip it? i wouldnt know. and it's not a sensitive matter because there werent any moms or children or old people in the car and if it were my family they would have found mikko or his agent and talked to them instead of a public forum or media or whatever. if there was denial and i had witnesses i would have taken it to court, a real court. not some strange fictitious reality that is the internet and the "forums". and damage to the car only is hardly a reason for imprisonment. now, i dont blame the drivers if it was some other people who put it out to the forums instead of them, but they could have it taken off and kept that way with the push of a button. and that is why i will not give respect to these kinds of alegations and attacks on a forum.

i feed on your bashing me, the more you do it, the stronger i get. so keep it going boys! haha

Dickhead, get your facts right.

When someone is on the public road, they are a member of public. regardless of whether they are there for a rally or not.

Also, the matter has been raised with Ford and Mikko himself before it was ever raised on a forum, if they don't want to deal with it discretely then it deserves to be brought to public attention.

Save this forum for people who actually know something about the subjects being discussed instead of spouting random crap because you think your funny

[FrankenSchwinn]

306, you're worth answering too.

dune, i dont know what you are trying to say with all these comas but, i guess it's not some nice comments about me. who cares really?! i showed you why i think that this one sided thing seems strange and crazy. i've put forth some arguments that i concider to be decent and i was waiting for a rebutal. i am still waiting and also waiting for clarification on some facts, like why attack the team. true, i dont have access to the british rally site and me too, i cannot register with a hotmail account, so there might be more there that would "enlighten" my dumbass. so i guess i am helpless and you should put one of these smilies with the eyes rolling and then the one where you shoot me or bash on my face, i dont care.
i hope you do get your good old fashion justice and get their head chopped off!

[DonJippo]

but i just want good old fashioned justice.

And that justice is not given on forums like this as you surely know it. Why don't you let the police and other authorities to take care of it as they are already aware about this case?

[olisykes]

And that justice is not given on forums like this as you surely know it. Why don't you let the police and other authorities to take care of it as they are already aware about this case?

I think you will notice that Dune did not start this discussion on this forum, he is merely replying to a subject which directly involves him.

I'm sure anyone would do the same.

[Daniel]

If it was me I'd leave details off the internet. I'm sure Ford are reading this thread right now and picking out any weaknesses in the argument now.

I think Dune should seriously consider asking for this thread to be deleted for his own good.

[pauldrew]

If it was me I'd leave details off the internet. I'm sure Ford are reading this thread right now and picking out any weaknesses in the argument now.

I think Dune should seriously consider asking for this thread to be deleted for his own good.

I'm pretty sure they wont be.

Why should dune ask for the thread to be removed when he was the victim and the one who was run off the road (i'm sure 6 witnesses wouldnt be making it up?)

As olisykes said, it wasn't dune who started this thread, and as it actually involves him i think he's more than within his rights to reply

I thought people would be more sympathetic towards his situation than this.

I think all has been said that needs to be on here, so lets just wait and see what happens, rather than just trying to stir the sh*t and cause trouble (not aimed at you Daniel)

[Daniel]

I'm pretty sure they wont be.

Why should dune ask for the thread to be removed when he was the victim and the one who was run off the road (i'm sure 6 witnesses wouldnt be making it up?)

As olisykes said, it wasn't dune who started this thread, and as it actually involves him i think he's more than within his rights to reply

I thought people would be more sympathetic towards his situation than this.

I think all has been said that needs to be on here, so lets just wait and see what happens, rather than just trying to stir the sh*t and cause trouble (not aimed at you Daniel)
:)

What I mean is that the less is said about this in public the better for Wayne :)

Of course Wayne is perfectly within his rights to reply to this thread but I think he's better off not doing so. But that's only my opinion :)

[olisykes]

There are no "weaknesses" in Dune's arguement because eveything that he has said has been 100% accurate.

People need to realise that this isn't aimed at Ford for the sake of it. It is aimed at them because it was their driver - if it happened to be a privateer who was driving towards him in the middle of the road, then Dune would still be taking the same action against them.

It's sad that a clubman privateer gets so little support on an open rally forum...

[FrankenSchwinn]

(not aimed at you Daniel)

no, it's aimed at me. because i refuse to believe everything i read on the internet and because i too think that if it happened there must be some kind of other explanation. it's just hard to believe that a world rally driver looses touch with reality that much. there are at least two sides to a story. pauldrew you need not be agressive with me for asking questions and raising my guard when such a story happens.

[MadCat]

This thread is unbelievable!!! I cannot believe some of the replies to this thread! It is VERY clear in my eyes who the fault lies with on this one (and has been recognised by very few members replied to this thread) and that is with Mikko! He has broken several rules of the law through this accident but 90% cannot see that.

Also, i find it very hard to believe that people can reply to this thread having not read the thread on the forum linked at the beginning of this thread (as some of the **** posted shows)

Come on guys, we dont need info from m-sport or the police here we have the innocent party replying to this thread, how much more bloody proof do you need!

[dune]

my last word on this subject, i did not start the thread or feel the need for it to belittled on a public forum, i did reply because certain parties were saying that it was a con to get money from m-sport, or it was all a pack of lies, all i wanted was honesty and for the insurance to deal with it end of.

[Tomi]

This thread is unbelievable!!! I cannot believe some of the replies to this thread! It is VERY clear in my eyes who the fault lies with on this one (and has been recognised by very few members replied to this thread) and that is with Mikko! He has broken several rules of the law through this accident but 90% cannot see that.

Also, i find it very hard to believe that people can reply to this thread having not read the thread on the forum linked at the beginning of this thread (as some of the **** posted shows)

Come on guys, we dont need info from m-sport or the police here we have the innocent party replying to this thread, how much more bloody proof do you need!

you have to register to get to the board

[FrankenSchwinn]

you have to register to get to the board

and they did not accept my hotmail nor yahoo addresses.

[bowler]

, how much more bloody proof do you need!

I haven't seen any proof of anything.

We have heard one person's side of the story. I cannot judge from that whether that story is correct. It may be, or it may not.

Posting something in a forum on the internet doesn't automatically make it right or correct.

This forum can do nothing to make the situation right, no matter who is at fault, all that can be done is to inflame a situation which is obviously difficult already

[L5->R5/CR]

I'll just say this.

There seems to be a key component missing in all that has been presented as to be able to make a fair and accurate judgement of what happened.

I am not saying I do not believe the parties that have spoken up, but that, as is often the case, their personal involvement has lead to some level of detail being omitted, whether or not that detail is important to the final judgement I do not know.

What I will say is that we should all refuse to convict or expunge both parties in the court of public opinion. We have only part of one side of the story and should not make a judgement based on that. If what dune has said is 100% truthful and complete in his assessment of what happened then there should be consequences. But as such, having only heard one side, we should just let this play out. There are some inconsistencies and other things that aren't 100% clear.

This is a situation in which nobody wins, what is worse is that all of this speculation and conjunction will only make things worse.

[Roy]

I don't know how its working in your country. But in My country a person is quilty if a court says he is quilty. In UK will it be the same I hope. Mikko/Marcus/Malcolm/M-Sport (M4) aren't quilty. The poilice is investigation this case. After that we have a result.

Result could be that we have quilty M's...or not. Let this 'Yes or No game' be over! How old are you?

The Police can do this, even if they are Britsh ;)

[COD]

How can everyone not believe the driver that was involved?


Have we heard Mikko's comments about it?? If we have, please tell where

[EuroTroll]

I don't know how its working in your country. But in My country a person is quilty if a court says he is quilty. In UK will it be the same I hope. Mikko/Marcus/Malcolm/M-Sport (M4) aren't quilty. The poilice is investigation this case. After that we have a result.

Despite the rivalries of the British and the Dutch on the seas a few centuries ago, I dare say their legal systems operate on surprisingly similar principles. ;) The best thing to do now is wait a bit.

[m.lowe]

What the hell where Mikko and Marcus doing coming the wrong way?
was the said stage being run as a 2nd one in reverse?

Saying this the stage should be recced one way till all the relevant crews have completed and not be allowed to run willy nilly as they like

If that was my car and it caused me to go off and Wilson / Ford or its drivers told me to piss off they would be getting a smacking.

Just shows that the top teams or that should be team dont care about the clubmen

[m.lowe]

it was in a pajero, what was the damage and the injuries? and it's not like that car is worth anything anyway! i also fail to see how this is "a sensitive matter".........
.


I just hope for your sake nobody crashes into you or causes you to go off the road then denies responsibilty whether its on a stage or on the public road then your view would be different

[PuddleJumper]

Regardless of what happened in the alleged incident, posting here will not affect anything. If a crime was committed and the police have been informed, leave it to them to take action as they see fit. It is not for us to decide who is or isn't guilty of any alleged crime, especially when the only record of the events alleged to have taken place are those written by "dune" both on this forum and elsewhere on the internet.

I will leave this thread open for the time being but urge you all to consider what you've typed before posting your reply. Regardless of the subject of your post, I expect nothing less than politeness in every post and personal insults will not be tolerated from anyone.

[Martin-MC]

At best Hirve the swerwe would get 3-9 points on a UK licence for driving without due care and attention not likely to get banned etc. Failing to produce Insurance also carries penalty points.
You should do your dirty washing in private via the soliciter and courts not on public forums. Even answering to posts the are hearsay and rumour devalues your case.

[306 Cosworth]

At best Hirve the swerwe would get 3-9 points on a UK licence for driving without due care and attention not likely to get banned etc. Failing to produce Insurance also carries penalty points.
You should do your dirty washing in private via the soliciter and courts not on public forums. Even answering to posts the are hearsay and rumour devalues your case.

From what I hear Martin they are going through a Solicitor, Wayne is just trying to get peoples attention to this matter that a WRT should'nt be doing things like this as this is really bad for the sport!!

I expect Mikko would deny it all if he came on here anyway :rolleyes:

[Mad cat jnr]

I think wayne would of been happy for a simple sorry, heresojur insurance. But for M-Sport to say Piss off, it just means that there (in my eyes) training to hide it. As for people doing it all the time, peopl in your country may be fraudsters but i am glad too say i know of non in england.

[Martin-MC]

What has it got to do with the sport exactly it was an "Alleged road traffic accident" between a rally prepared car and a road car?
All that can happen is Hirv can be prosecuted for driving offences. Slinging mud onesided on a public forum is not the way to seek justice is it.

[Tomski]

Also remember that the Ploice will not be interested in whether Mikko was heading in the "wrong" direction, they are only interested in the laws of the land and not rally rules / regs etc.

[306 Cosworth]

Also remember that the Ploice will not be interested in whether Mikko was heading in the "wrong" direction, they are only interested in the laws of the land and not rally rules / regs etc.


Of course they won't be interested in him heading in the wrong direction, they'll be interested in him being on the wrong side of the road.
And what this has to do with the sport is the fact that neither Mikko or Gronholm stopped, and the fact Hirvonen was driving like a complete tw*t. Puts a bad light on the sport if you've got the worlds leading drivers doing that!

[WRCfan]

It seems like the way you are talking Mr Cosworth that you were standing there watching the thing unfold. Calm down and stop slinging mud around. You dont know the facts either dare I say. Hearing from one person involved in the accident is hardly any evidence. Police can't convict upon hearing one side of the story. Thus neither should anyone else. If hes is guilty we will find out in due time. Just chill man.

[I am evil Homer]

Well it seems there was an accident and Mikko was involved in some way. Leaving the scene of an accident is a crime, punishable by a fine, licence points and/or prison depending on the severity of the accident.

[Martin-MC]

Of course they won't be interested in him heading in the wrong direction, they'll be interested in him being on the wrong side of the road.
And what this has to do with the sport is the fact that neither Mikko or Gronholm stopped, and the fact Hirvonen was driving like a complete tw*t. Puts a bad light on the sport if you've got the worlds leading drivers doing that!

So neither stopped so what has that fact got to do with the sport. Do you know how many people hit and run everyday? This wasnt even hit and run this was allegedly a near miss that resulted in one car having an accident. The worlds greatest drivers also has nothing to do with it. It hardly puts "The Sport" if thats what you call the shower of rubbish thats the WRC thesedays
in a bad light. Stuff that puts it in a bad light is drivers carrying on down road sections with three wheels on the car etc. Might of been ok in the old days but in todays society its a no no.
Also if one set of people say he was on wrong side of road and four others say no he wasnt but driver that crashed was driving to fast what are the police supposed to do? Two different stories from two sets of people, the police wont want create news and have them placed in a bad light in the press.

[306 Cosworth]

So neither stopped so what has that fact got to do with the sport. Do you know how many people hit and run everyday?

The fact is that Hirvonen was driving like a twat and that it puts a bad light on the sport as ordinary members of the public must think that's how all rally drivers drive on the road.

[Martin-MC]

The fact is that Hirvonen was driving like a twat and that it puts a bad light on the sport as ordinary members of the public must think that's how all rally drivers drive on the road.

How do you know he was driving like a **** as you so eloquently put it? Were you there? Did you see it? Yes then you can call him what you like and add to bringing the sport down a peg or two, No well shut up and stop speculating.
As has been said over 6 pages of worthless internet speculation only one side of the "Alleged" story has been told.
Get a life and get out more.

[JAMESWRC]

So neither stopped so what has that fact got to do with the sport. Do you know how many people hit and run everyday? This wasnt even hit and run this was allegedly a near miss that resulted in one car having an accident. The worlds greatest drivers also has nothing to do with it. It hardly puts "The Sport" if thats what you call the shower of rubbish thats the WRC thesedays
in a bad light. Stuff that puts it in a bad light is drivers carrying on down road sections with three wheels on the car etc. Might of been ok in the old days but in todays society its a no no.
Also if one set of people say he was on wrong side of road and four others say no he wasnt but driver that crashed was driving to fast what are the police supposed to do? Two different stories from two sets of people, the police wont want create news and have them placed in a bad light in the press.

How can you compare a hit and run to what has happened. So if they caused this accident as had been said then you say its ok for them to drive on and not stop and see if the crew are ok. Lets be honest if you came across a car upside down in the road would you stop or would you just drive on? There is no excuse at all for Mikko or Marcus to drive on without stopping or for Malcome to act like he suposedly did.

[pino]

Guys, please keep your tone down or this thread will be closed !

[raybak]

Pino please close this thread. In the interests of rallying as a sport.

Ray

[White Sauron]

The fact is that Hirvonen was driving like a twat and that it puts a bad light on the sport as ordinary members of the public must think that's how all rally drivers drive on the road.

Do you have a prove of it? Maybe it's your driver lying to hide his own driving's mistake!

[pauldrew]

As the brother of one of the parties involved i think it would be best if this thread was closed as it is going nowhere and is just turning into a slanging match

Thanks