Laptops, Netbooks and Ipads and other Tablets

[Valve Bounce]

This is a totally different discussion as the other thread has morphed into a discussion on mobile phones and smart phones. This is purely about Laptops, Notebooks and Tablets.
I went to Costco last week and was looking at a couple of net-books when a fellow shopper and I enterred into the discussion about the Netbooks vs Tablets. He came straight out and stated that he had an Ipad and considered it useless to his needs. The Netbook I was admiring cost around Aud$400 and had an HDMI outlet, and Windows 7 Starter.

Of course, a quick search of Google reveals a very low prices for Laptops and Net-books and I just wonder why anyone would buy an Ipad or a Tablet of any sort. I had a Tablet which I bought in HK (Wan Chai Computer Emporium) for Aud$260, used it on my ski holiday at Niseko last winter for emails and to read the news from various newspapers, then was fortunate enough to sell it on my return to Melbourne for what I bought it for. It boasted a twin core CPU and was supposed to be powerful.

On my next holiday, I will certainly do more research and get myself a netbook or very light Laptop (with HDMI outlet), and for a price much lower than an inferior tablet.

My question herre is:"Why are tablets so popular? when they cost more and are so inferior to a decent laptop or netbook? :Crazy:

[CaptainRaiden]

I saw the iPad compared to a 8 year old HP tablet. Was quite interesting:

http://pics.blameitonthevoices.com/012010/ipad_vs_hp_tc_1100.jpg

[Valve Bounce]

More convenient maybe? Where have you been Valve? :)

Sorry - but I suddenly find motorsport less interesting. I even forgot to do my pickems twice. :(
What do you think of my plans to get a decent netbook with an HDMI outlet? I reckon that would be the device to travel with.
By the way, the iPad cannot even play Sudoku from this website: The Sudoku Learning Center (http://www.sudokulearningcenter.com/) ; I checked that out at the Apple Store last week.

[Mitch555]

I saw the iPad compared to a 8 year old HP tablet. Was quite interesting:

http://pics.blameitonthevoices.com/012010/ipad_vs_hp_tc_1100.jpg

iPad does have headphone plug and two cameras now. However I would get a small laptop. iPad is great for uni students for reading countless PDFs and note taking and those who like to present stuff to clients and do quotes on the run etc. Also it isn't bad for plan trips if you put a billion videos on it. Apart from that, something with power and 12 - 13 inch screen is the weapon of choice I think. I'd go with a MacBook Air or Pro personally

[Andrewmcm]

The comparison between that 2003 tablet and the iPad is interesting. If hardware is the be-all and end-all, then why is that tablet not ruling the world?

The answer lies in our perception of technology and hardware. Our busy lives mean that the average user is not interested in setting up drivers, worrying about connectivity and dealing with the quirks of an interface. The key for the modern user is that the user experience must be sufficiently well refined to allow the actual device to feel superfluous to the end goal of its use. Apple does this rather well.

The iPad may not have lots of connectors, the flashiest hardware specs, but what it does it does very well. Also I'm sure that the iPad can do VGA output via an adapter. Clock speed comparisons are also somewhat misleading as the core architecture of the processors used in those devices will be much different.

The fact of the matter is that if you wish to spend money on a device, you will buy the best device that suits your needs. If you think a laptop or netbook is best for you then great, go buy one of those. If a tablet is better-suited for your needs then you should try as many of those things as possible and buy the one that's right for you.

[BDunnell]

The comparison between that 2003 tablet and the iPad is interesting. If hardware is the be-all and end-all, then why is that tablet not ruling the world?

The answer lies in our perception of technology and hardware. Our busy lives mean that the average user is not interested in setting up drivers, worrying about connectivity and dealing with the quirks of an interface. The key for the modern user is that the user experience must be sufficiently well refined to allow the actual device to feel superfluous to the end goal of its use. Apple does this rather well.

The iPad may not have lots of connectors, the flashiest hardware specs, but what it does it does very well. Also I'm sure that the iPad can do VGA output via an adapter. Clock speed comparisons are also somewhat misleading as the core architecture of the processors used in those devices will be much different.

Exactly. It just works, and, for those of us who are useless with anything technological, does so very simply. (I don't own one, but have used one.)

[CaptainRaiden]

The comparison between that 2003 tablet and the iPad is interesting. If hardware is the be-all and end-all, then why is that tablet not ruling the world?

The answer lies in our perception of technology and hardware. Our busy lives mean that the average user is not interested in setting up drivers, worrying about connectivity and dealing with the quirks of an interface. The key for the modern user is that the user experience must be sufficiently well refined to allow the actual device to feel superfluous to the end goal of its use. Apple does this rather well.

The iPad may not have lots of connectors, the flashiest hardware specs, but what it does it does very well. Also I'm sure that the iPad can do VGA output via an adapter. Clock speed comparisons are also somewhat misleading as the core architecture of the processors used in those devices will be much different.

The fact of the matter is that if you wish to spend money on a device, you will buy the best device that suits your needs. If you think a laptop or netbook is best for you then great, go buy one of those. If a tablet is better-suited for your needs then you should try as many of those things as possible and buy the one that's right for you.

While I agree with almost all you said, I still can't find a single practical use for the iPad in my life. I mean sure, if I was paying $200 for something like that, it's not a bad toy, but the money that Apple are charging its customers for the iPad is just a sin. The only advantage the iPad has over that old HP tablet is the iOs. Other tablets with Android are better, if not similar to the iPad.

What Steve Jobs did, so brilliantly, was to restyle, repackage and rebrand the old tablet, giving it a funky new name, make a few stylish TV commercials, get some famous folks to advertise for it, and voila, everybody wants one, even believing that it's actually more useful and more value for money than a laptop.

The biggest advantage people say the iPad has is mobility. Well, that would hold true only in the case of if you were walking all the time. The moment you sit down, a laptop or a netbook is as functional and more practical than an iPad. Second is battery life, and the iPad goes up to 9 hours for doing the most basic tasks, such as internet surfing, whereas everybody from Asus to Dell has now introduced 12 hour batteries for even Core i7 laptops, of course at a slightly higher price. My Dell laptop goes 5 hours on extended battery support, and it's a Core i5 with 4 GB RAM, 640 GB hard drive, and a 1 GB graphic card, which BTW was cheaper than the highest spec iPad 2. It can handle F1 2011 at ultra graphics settings, and render videos at a pretty fast rate. What's the best an iPad 2 can do for the same or more money, play Angry Birds?

For the price of the most basic iPad, you can get the best netbook and a decent laptop, which would run many more programs than the iPad. For the price of the most advanced 64 GB iPad 2, you can get a really good hardware loaded laptop, able to play any number of games and handle the heaviest of photo/video editing software with ease.

Installing Windows 7 is no hassle, and keeping it running trouble free for a long time is also no biggie. My PC has been running Windows 7 trouble free for the last 2 years, and my laptop for the last 1.5 years, never had the need to reinstall it. As long as you know what you're doing, and Google the things and read up a little on what you don't know, everything is easy. I don't like to rely on manufacturers to make things easier for me.

[Andrewmcm]

Installing Windows 7 is no hassle, and keeping it running trouble free for a long time is also no biggie. My PC has been running Windows 7 trouble free for the last 2 years, and my laptop for the last 1.5 years, never had the need to reinstall it. As long as you know what you're doing, and Google the things and read up a little on what you don't know, everything is easy. I don't like to rely on manufacturers to make things easier for me.


And that's the point. 'As long as you know what you're doing'. Technology becomes cumbersome when we have to think about how it works. Its job is to make our lives easier, not more complicated.

As I said above, if a given device is not for you then that's fine, you don't have to use it! We got into an argument about subjectivity versus objectivity in posts on the other thread to do with tablet devices. This thread is in danger of going the same way.

[BDunnell]

As long as you know what you're doing, and Google the things and read up a little on what you don't know, everything is easy. I don't like to rely on manufacturers to make things easier for me.

As far as I'm concerned, when I buy a piece of electrical equipment, no matter what it is, I want the effort required for its operation to be minimal. I am not interested in the equipment, or having to learn about it in order to use it — this isn't a subject on which I want to spend any more time than I can help. I find it inherently dull. All I want is for it to do the tasks required of it.

[CaptainRaiden]

As far as I'm concerned, when I buy a piece of electrical equipment, no matter what it is, I want the effort required for its operation to be minimal. I am not interested in the equipment, or having to learn about it in order to use it — this isn't a subject on which I want to spend any more time than I can help. I find it inherently dull. All I want is for it to do the tasks required of it.

You still have to look for apps, install them, upgrade the OS version on a smart phone and tablet too on a periodic basis, don't you? How is it that much different to doing it on a PC? These days most of the drivers, and software versions are auto-upgraded. AMD or Nvidia upgrade the video drivers automatically as well. Windows updates are done automatically in the background, so do most of the antiviruses.

Anyway, in the end, like Andrew said above, if iPad floats some people's boats, then good for them. After using a friend's iPad 2 for weeks, I personally see it as an overpriced, underspecced, underperforming bigger version of an iPhone, but hey, that's just my humble opinion. :)

[Jag_Warrior]

The easy answer is that different people have different needs. This fellow that Valve met who bought an iPad and then found it "useless to his needs"... did he not know what his needs were prior to making that purchase??? Certainly there are some people who follow the herd, buying whatever is popular and not (really) knowing why they're buying something. I have no sympathy for people like that.

On that HP tablet in the above picture, how many apps were ever available for it? What software could it run? In other words, what could a person do with it versus what could a person do with an iPad? Though they may look similar, I believe that I'm looking at an Apple and an orange. ;)

I don't own an iPad but I bought an iPad 2 for my girl earlier this year, and I have an iPod Touch. Both use essentially the same operating system. So both have access to the hundreds of thousands of apps in the Apple App store. And that is the strength that the iPad has over most other tablets and netbooks. A device's capability isn't just about the hardware, but also (and more importantly) what software/apps are available for it? That was the reason for the original Mac falling behind WinTel machines years ago: not enough software was being written for the Mas OS. Back then, Macs were a LOT easier to use, much more stable and were of superior build quality to most early PC's (save IBM's). I had a Mac Plus and used it from 1986 through the early/mid 90's. I was forced to join the WinTel PC world in 1994 or so, only because I could no longer get the business software that I required. Now the shoe is on the other foot, as far as mobile computing is concerned. iOS built a big lead in apps and still maintains that lead for the time being. Plus, with an iPad you know what build quality you're going to get. You don't have to worry about compatibility or other issues, as you do with Android devices. Some are good. Some are junk. And from what I understand, the same is true of netbooks.

Making hardware comparisons only works when you can compare how one device performs a given task or runs a similar program versus some other device. I can't run a full version of AutoCAD or FeatureCAM on an iPad. But I can't do that on an Android tablet or a netbook either. But I can do video conferencing out of the box with an iPad... but not on most netbooks that I've seen. So some required tasks I can do on one, some on both and some on neither.

The question of capability is one I struggled with for about a year. I badly needed to upgrade at least one of my computers. I had my heart (though maybe not my head) set on a MacBook Pro. With a Mac, I would be able to run the native Mac OS, plus Windows and Linux if I ever wanted to. Combined with Apple's top rankings in quality and customer service, I decided on that hardware platform. And for what I do now and what I'll be doing more of, I needed a dual monitor setup. But after visiting various computer shops, talking to a couple of day traders and engineers, sitting down with my girl's nephew (an engineering student), I went from a sure bet on a quad core I7 2.4 Ghz MacBook Pro with 8 gigs of RAM and dual LG displays to a quad core I7 3.4 Ghz iMac with 16 gigs of RAM, 2 gigs of Video RAM and dual Apple Cinema Displays. I lost portability but I gained what I determined I needed more than portability: power. I did a travel analysis (on my iPod Touch ;) ) and determined how often I took my laptop out of the house on business over the past year. It was less than 5%. I thought I needed a laptop that would also be a desktop replacement, but the data told me otherwise. So for about the same money, I got what I needed, rather than what I wanted... or what the herd was going for (I believe the MacBook Pro is the best selling laptop in the U.S. right now). I got it hooked up late last night and I'm already totally blown away!

So, people should get what they need. And if all you need is an internet appliance, the netbook may do the job.

[Mark]

I've just bought a Kindle for my wife for Christmas. She happened to try one today and she was like WTF no touch screen!!!

Seems there is a touch screen one but it's US only. I do despise some companies attitudes in restricting products to certain countries and Amazon are a particularly bad offender.

So my killer Christmas present might have to go back :mad:

[J4MIE]

I've been wanting to get a samsung galaxy tab 10.1 for a while now as my phone (aka the brick) is android and I'm pretty much used to it. However, I can't justify spending the money they are asking for them so can manage to do without. My dad bought an iPad 2 a few weeks ago and it was his first touchscreen device and it took him a while to get used to it. I had a quick shot of one in a shop a while ago and was tempted but can't be bothered with itunes.

[GridGirl]

I've just bought a Kindle for my wife for Christmas. She happened to try one today and she was like WTF no touch screen!!!

Seems there is a touch screen one but it's US only. I do despise some companies attitudes in restricting products to certain countries and Amazon are a particularly bad offender.

So my killer Christmas present might have to go back :mad:

Why does she want touch screen Kindle? One of the great things about the Kindle is the fact you shouldn't have to touch the screen and therefor you dont get it all grubby. I can read my kindle books on my iphone (or an ipad if I had one) but I'd much prefer reading on a screen with no glare and no grubby finger marks on it.

[Valve Bounce]

For anyone to fully understand the popularity of Apple products, one has to visit an Apple showroom. I visited the one at Chadstone last week and the guy there was extremely helpful. Despite the large store being full of browsing customers, all were being helped by store assistants (I think they call them consultants these days). Everything works on an Ipad!! OK! it doesn't have an HDMI outlet, but you can buy some device to take care of that. Then it won't do the Sudoku from the website I posted above, but "you can pay to upgrade your Ipad so it will". Will it play movies? Sure, we can "provide" some doodad that will enable that. The Ipad will do everything short of park your car for you, but I am sure that Apple will have an app out very soon that will enable that. I don't know how much all the extra doodads and apps will cost, but who cares? I was almost swept up in the emotion of the store and would have bought almost anything there. Oh yeah! that beautiful slim Macbook Pro - it will even help me cook dinner. Fortunately, my better half called me on my 5 years old Motorola mobile and said she was finished shopping and to meet her right away at the coffee shop because Benny wanted his croissant. Saved by my Chihuahua!!

Yesterday, Charlie Brown (the tech expert on Channel 9) showed some very interesting netbooks and laptops that were ideal for the guy on the run to the uni student who wanted something very light. These devices had lotsa power, lotsa storage, and were just the things students need. Funny!! he didn't mention any tablets or iPads; poor Charlie Brown is slipping. :rolleyes:

The customer service in the store is outstanding, so good that Dell had to pull their tiny display from Chadstone because nobody was interested in Dell (or their lousy service).

[BDunnell]

For anyone to fully understand the popularity of Apple products, one has to visit an Apple showroom. I visited the one at Chadstone last week and the guy there was extremely helpful. Despite the large store being full of browsing customers, all were being helped by store assistants (I think they call them consultants these days). Everything works on an Ipad!! OK! it doesn't have an HDMI outlet, but you can buy some device to take care of that. Then it won't do the Sudoku from the website I posted above, but "you can pay to upgrade your Ipad so it will". Will it play movies? Sure, we can "provide" some doodad that will enable that. The Ipad will do everything short of park your car for you, but I am sure that Apple will have an app out very soon that will enable that. I don't know how much all the extra doodads and apps will cost, but who cares? I was almost swept up in the emotion of the store and would have bought almost anything there. Oh yeah! that beautiful slim Macbook Pro - it will even help me cook dinner. Fortunately, my better half called me on my 5 years old Motorola mobile and said she was finished shopping and to meet her right away at the coffee shop because Benny wanted his croissant. Saved by my Chihuahua!!

Yesterday, Charlie Brown (the tech expert on Channel 9) showed some very interesting netbooks and laptops that were ideal for the guy on the run to the uni student who wanted something very light. These devices had lotsa power, lotsa storage, and were just the things students need. Funny!! he didn't mention any tablets or iPads; poor Charlie Brown is slipping. :rolleyes:

The customer service in the store is outstanding, so good that Dell had to pull their tiny display from Chadstone because nobody was interested in Dell (or their lousy service).

Agreed. The one here in Berlin is excellent. Most reasonable about charging for a repair that they sought to perform but weren't in the event able to, waiving the fee entirely. Now that I don't expect from a big company.

[Mark]

Why does she want touch screen Kindle? One of the great things about the Kindle is the fact you shouldn't have to touch the screen and therefor you dont get it all grubby. I can read my kindle books on my iphone (or an ipad if I had one) but I'd much prefer reading on a screen with no glare and no grubby finger marks on it.

Well she's getting a non touch screen one and she's going to flamin' like it :D

I think that it was that she's used to her iPhone and picked up her Mums Kindle and expected it to be an iPad, basically. Which it's not at all.

[Mark]

Agreed. The one here in Berlin is excellent. Most reasonable about charging for a repair that they sought to perform but weren't in the event able to, waiving the fee entirely. Now that I don't expect from a big company.

Apple aren't stupid. They know that if they give poor customer service then you'll go and buy another manufacturers products. If they sort you out you'll keep buying apps and upgrading your hardware and their cost of repair will be paid back many times over.

[ioan]

And that's the point. 'As long as you know what you're doing'. Technology becomes cumbersome when we have to think about how it works. Its job is to make our lives easier, not more complicated.

You're totally right, and that's why anyone who knows well how IT stuff works doesn't buy an iPad unless they had a lot of money to throw away.

[ioan]

The easy answer is that different people have different needs. This fellow that Valve met who bought an iPad and then found it "useless to his needs"... did he not know what his needs were prior to making that purchase???

I would say the fellow knew his own needs, what he didn't know was that he had fallen in a marketing trap and thus he/she bought an overpriced and over-sized iPhone that you can't even use to phone someone.

In the end it's each to his own. I have colleagues who can't configure a printer on their company PC (is there an easier setup to do on a PC nowadays?) but all they talk about is their next purchase of an iPad.

[ioan]

If you can afford one they are nice gadgets to have.

I've got 2 laptops, a Samsung Tab and a Blackberry and most probably will get myself the new Asus Transformer Prime which is an impressive piece of technology with the combined 16 hours battery life, the full spec removable keyboard and its nice large screen.
An iPad? No thanks, it doesn't add any value to what I have right now.

[ioan]

The customer service in the store is outstanding, so good that Dell had to pull their tiny display from Chadstone because nobody was interested in Dell (or their lousy service).

With Dell you get what you pay for. I pay for next day on site support and repairs and I get exactly that, be it home or at work they will call and ask me when would be best for me, I chose lunch time, and by the time I finished my lunch and get back they are done and everything is running great. Just to say that I never had lousy service with Dell.

[ioan]

Thats fair enough. IMO the ipad is better than any tablet on the market and I've used the Samsung, HTC, and Blackberry versions. I've recently used ipads for exhibition displays and the company I work for are keen to use them in more of our designs as the software guys at Apple are a pleasure to work with. I don't own one personally as I don't have a need for one, but they are a nice piece of kit and the opperating system is just about the best out there IMO.

Lots of companies are weighing up the pros and cons of moving towards the iPad for their management and marketing/sales departments as they do not need lots of processing power for their daily work.

[Valve Bounce]

With Dell you get what you pay for. I pay for next day on site support and repairs and I get exactly that, be it home or at work they will call and ask me when would be best for me, I chose lunch time, and by the time I finished my lunch and get back they are done and everything is running great. Just to say that I never had lousy service with Dell.

Sorry to mislead you ioan. I too have a Dell, my third. Service is great. I was referring to the small DELL display stand at our Chadstone Mall. I was interested in a new Dell, and visited this stand to ask about a new PC. The guy was less than interested in me as he was doing some stuff on his laptop. When he finally decided to talk to me, a potential DELL customer, he was quite dismissive. I asked him if he was connected to the internet, and he brusquely waved his hand in a direction away from his stand and said to me "We don't provide internet. You want internet, go to the store somewhere there". So I went upstairs to the Apple store, and was immediately met by a representative who asked me what I was interested in. I pointed to their beautiful thin Macbooks, and he immediately asked an assistant to show me the Macbooks. I asked if he was connected to the internet; certainly was the reply. I asked how I could surf, and he asked me, in a nice way to guess. I looked at the icons and he told me if I wanted to explore, wouldn't I go on "SAFARI"? We had a very pleasant time as he showed me this great array of Macbooks. OK! when we got to talking prices, I tried my best to hide my horror because these things were expensive. But, as I indicated in another post above, their sales staff were most polite and interesting and helpful.

It is no surprise to me that DELL has closed their small display stand ( with the rude attendants) while the huge Apple Store is bursting with potential customers. Please excuse me for laboring the point, but the Apple sales approach is magnificent.

But getting back to Dell, my online service with Dell is impeccable. They sort out any problems I have with my PC with no fuss each time, and I confess to being somewhat of a PC Dummy.

[Valve Bounce]

Indeed, and your average consumer needs less processing power so its hardly surprising the ipad has done so well.

The iPad will NOT play Sudoku from this website. The Sudoku Learning Center (http://www.sudokulearningcenter.com/)

An el cheapo netbook costing around Aud$340 will. I think you will find that if you are willing to make the effort, a Macbook Pro will shyte all over the iPad, which I consider to be Scheisenhousen.

[Andrewmcm]

You're totally right, and that's why anyone who knows well how IT stuff works doesn't buy an iPad unless they had a lot of money to throw away.

Subjectivity, subjectivity, subjectivity. I know many people who are seasoned IT professionals and find the iPad most useful indeed. Because it does not fit in with your IT portfolio does not mean that it will be ineffective for everybody else.

The gentleman who bought an iPad and did not like it did not do his research properly. Any significant investment in IT hardware should be preceded by some time spent trying different devices, checking for compatibility with needs etc. - act in haste repent at leisure and so on.

[Valve Bounce]

I know many people who are seasoned IT professionals and find the iPad most useful indeed. .

OK, I'll byte!! What will an iPad do that a comparably priced laptop will not do in terms of a seasoned IT professional's needs?

[Mark]

It'll be smaller, lighter and have a better battery life.

[Mark]

It's not so much the batteries as that they use the ARM processor which uses much less power than an x86 processor.

[Andrewmcm]

It will also have a range of apps specifically designed for use on a tablet device that will not be available on most laptops. An ipad is a gadget you can browse the internet on, use apps, and play games with. Its not primarily aimed at IT professionals who wish to use it for work, although it can be used for certain needs. They are appealing to students because they can use them for presentations, take notes, and can carry them alot more easily than a laptop and power lead. The battery life is usually better on a tablet as they use batteries developed for the mobile industry. They can be used around the home and you can power them up instantly without the need to wait for software to load up, and they can be left on for longer periods.

If you don't see the point of a tablet, the chances are you don't need one and are certainly not their target customer.

Taking notes is a good point. I have meetings with an academic colleague who own an iPad. He has a drawing app where we can scribble away ideas on the screen, and the 'pages' can then be sent to me by email or printed out. Much better than having to photocopy handwritten scribbles and pass them out to people!

[ioan]

Taking notes is a good point. I have meetings with an academic colleague who own an iPad. He has a drawing app where we can scribble away ideas on the screen, and the 'pages' can then be sent to me by email or printed out. Much better than having to photocopy handwritten scribbles and pass them out to people!

Whoa there, handwriting on paper is worse than scribbling on an iPad? One of my colleagues does use his iPad to take notes and the result is that he can't sometimes read his own hieroglyphs.

I do agree though that it is practical, if only there were some good apps to recognize handwritting, like it was on a palm device.

[ioan]

OK, I'll byte!! What will an iPad do that a comparably priced laptop will not do in terms of a seasoned IT professional's needs?

Not much for his work, especially as IT pros usually work from their office through remote connection. Even if they need to go to another building it's not like they can't take their laptop with, and they usually do. not to mention that most of them use several screen to keep track of all their tools, which is a bit hard to do on an iPad.

[Valve Bounce]

It will also have a range of apps specifically designed for use on a tablet device that will not be available on most laptops. An ipad is a gadget you can browse the internet on, use apps, and play games with. Its not primarily aimed at IT professionals who wish to use it for work, although it can be used for certain needs. They are appealing to students because they can use them for presentations, take notes, and can carry them alot more easily than a laptop and power lead. The battery life is usually better on a tablet as they use batteries developed for the mobile industry. They can be used around the home and you can power them up instantly without the need to wait for software to load up, and they can be left on for longer periods.

If you don't see the point of a tablet, the chances are you don't need one and are certainly not their target customer.

OK!! I'm confused here. And I write this as a semi Computer Dummy. There are applications/programs that you can install in an iPad that you cannot install in a Macbook Pro, is that right? that will enable the iPad to be (very) useful over the Macbook Pro? right!! I'm just trying to understand why our Channel 9 resident Computer Guru Charlie Brown recommends the Macbook Pro as a most useful tool for the student/professional who needs to carry his personal laptop around with him. He never even mentioned the iPad anymore. :confused:

[Valve Bounce]

Not much for his work, especially as IT pros usually work from their office through remote connection. Even if they need to go to another building it's not like they can't take their laptop with, and they usually do. not to mention that most of them use several screen to keep track of all their tools, which is a bit hard to do on an iPad.

This is very interesting indeed! I kept my old monitor when I bought my new DELL PC, and I use two screens. This is vital when I need to book my footy tickets for the Finals. The bookings open promptly at 9 am on the specific day, and I have my membership number, and other vital details stored on my second screen so that I simply copy and paste onto the Ticketek website at precisely 9 am. So far for the past two years I was able to get seating on the upper tier in front of the corporate boxes at the MCG (except for the Grand Final) which my friends queue up for all night at Ticketek.

It is also interesting that many websites will not permit copy and paste, with the message on my PC saying that I don't have sufficient memory even when I try to copy just 6 words. However, with the second screen, I can type any article onto a word processor page.

[Jag_Warrior]

I would say the fellow knew his own needs, what he didn't know was that he had fallen in a marketing trap and thus he/she bought an overpriced and over-sized iPhone that you can't even use to phone someone.

If I live in the mountains and have a list of needs that points to a 4-wheel drive truck, but I see a pretty salesgirl standing beside a Corvette in the showroom, and that's what I come home with... then I'm an idiot. If you actually know what your needs are, but then you buy something which (clearly?) does not meet those needs, to blame marketing is a cop-out, in my opinion. Whether it's a house, car, computer or anything else, people have to be responsible for what they buy or don't buy.


In the end it's each to his own. I have colleagues who can't configure a printer on their company PC (is there an easier setup to do on a PC nowadays?) but all they talk about is their next purchase of an iPad.My girl is a school administrator for special needs kids. Her school system, along with many others in the U.S., has moved to tablets in general, the iPad in particular. So it doesn't surprise me that someone who has trouble configuring a printer would still buy an iPad. This idea that computers should be difficult to use was around when I was in college (more than a quarter century ago). We have slowly, but surely moved to a time when the easier a device is to use, the more people will find uses for it.

But yes, to each his own. We all have different needs. And as long as our purchases reflect those needs, it doesn't matter what brand or device type we choose versus what others prefer.

[Valve Bounce]

If I live in the mountains and have a list of needs that points to a 4-wheel drive truck, but I see a pretty salesgirl standing beside a Corvette in the showroom, and that's what I come home with... then I'm an idiot. .

OK! if you won't, I'll have that Corvette, thank you!! :)

[Valve Bounce]

I'm sorry but theres alot of criticism for the ipad being too expensive yet you are comparing it with a device that is more than double the price?! The iPad starts at £399 and the Mac Book at £999. Of course the Mac is better and will do a lot more, but I'm a bit confused as to what answer you are looking for here? :confused:

A 5 Series BMW is alot better than a Vauxhall Astra, but theres also a big difference in the price.

OK! apart from my question about what apps/programs can or cannot be loaded into a Macbook Pro, what about a Samsung, Asus, or Toshiba which costs around the same price as the iPad, or maybe slightly more. The answer I am looking for is what fantastic apps/programs can be loaded onto an iPad that will make it so far superior to a laptop that these apps/programs cannot be loaded onto the laptop. I am missing something here: in terms of computer technology, what makes the iPad so superior to a decent laptop? I only mention Apple's Macbook simply because I understand there are some vital apps/programs that one can install in an iPad that one cannot install in the Macbook. Obviously, there are some really great laptops that one can get for around Aud$1000; I think I did post around 8 months ago that there was an Acer with a i7 CPU going at Costco for under Aud$1000. That should bring my Vauxhall Astra a little closer to that BMW 5, but that wasn't the point I was making.

[donKey jote]

OK! if you won't, I'll have that Corvette, thank you!! :)

and I'll have the salesgirl :p

[Valve Bounce]

and I'll have the salesgirl :p

I thought the pretty girl came with the Corvette.

[ArrowsFA1]

...he/she bought an overpriced and over-sized iPhone that you can't even use to phone someone...
Errrrr...you can phone someone using an iPad.

[GridGirl]

Sometimes I can see the merits of this argument and then at other times I think the discussion is like comparing chalk and cheese.

I have a laptop at home which lives in my living room and and is used 99.9% of the time for Internet browsing only. The DVD drive has been replaced with an extra battery and it has barely more than anti virus software installed on it. It a Dell, it's old but it boots up in seconds. Is a tablet better? No. If I went out and bought a new super dooper laptop would it be better? No. In both instances, if I want functionality I go upstairs to my study and use the PC. I don't always think the argument is necessarily about comparing one with the other all the time.

Having said that I don't own a tablet but I'm not anti tablet either. I've considered buying one for when I work away from home but that doesn't mean I'll bother buying one either.

Incidentally Valve, you one main bugbear about the tablet was that it doesn't load up a sudoku website. Is that a major deciding factor as to whether you'd buy a tablet or a laptop? :s

[Valve Bounce]

Incidentally Valve, you one main bugbear about the tablet was that it doesn't load up a sudoku website. Is that a major deciding factor as to whether you'd buy a tablet or a laptop? :s

First of all, when I am waiting for my better half while she is at her Doctors', or waiting while I am at the medical centre waiting room for my appointment, or while I was lying in bed in the hospital, in other words while I am in waiting mode, I play Sudoku which I download from the website I posted. I can print 4 Sudoku puzzles on an A sized sheet, two on each side. When I saw the tablet, I thought what a great idea as I could use that while I am waiting. To my surprise, the operating System is so inferior to Windows XP that it wouldn't even download that puzzle.

You may have missed my earlier post where I did buy a tablet in HK for Aud$250 and was able to access my email while in Niseko to contact each day our friend who was looking after Benny. I was also able to read the newspapers from Australia on my tablet. It was supposed to be the latest with a dual core cpu or whatever it is powered by. Then when I returned to Melbourne, I had absolutely no further use for the tablet and was able to sell it for Aud$250.

I have since checked out our Costco store, and I can get a really neat netbook for Aud$399, which, among other things, has an HDMI outlet. Next time I go overseas, that's the device I will get, or its latest upgrade. And the beauty of buying this from our Melbourne Costco store is that if I don't like the netbook, I can return it within 3 months and get my money back.

Personally, I find writing anything on the tablet a bloody nuisance with that keyboard on the screen. I sure as heck prefer a proper keyboard to bang away on.

And yeah! the netbook will download and let me play Sudoku from the website I posted, so when I am waiting in the airport lounge, or waiting for the transfer bus, or simply just waiting for whatever, I can play Sudoku wherever there is wi-fi.
I am sure there are many people who will find ways to enjoy their tablet, seeing it is so popular. My grandchildren have an iPad and they seem to have a lot of fun playing with it. I guess I am just too old and too fussy with what I want from the internet.

[GridGirl]

Valve, I like Sudoku too. I play it everyday in fact, but after reading your last post all I ended up thinking was I play Sudoku on my smart phone after purchasing a really great app a couple of years ago. I check emails on my smart phone. I can read newspapers on my smartphone. Im just thinking why the argument of tablet versus laptop when all I'm thinking is your decision could easily be between what's best from a tablet, laptop or smart phone.

[ioan]

If I live in the mountains and have a list of needs that points to a 4-wheel drive truck, but I see a pretty salesgirl standing beside a Corvette in the showroom, and that's what I come home with... then I'm an idiot.

I guess he/she wanted a VW Polo and got a Trabant, that would be a better analogy.


So it doesn't surprise me that someone who has trouble configuring a printer would still buy an iPad.

I didn't disagree with it, I brought up the example to prove exactly that, that people don't care how their stuff works as long as it does something.
Luckily not all the people are like that.

[BDunnell]

I didn't disagree with it, I brought up the example to prove exactly that, that people don't care how their stuff works as long as it does something.
Luckily not all the people are like that.

Why should people care about how every device they own works, so long as it does what they want it to?

[BDunnell]

I'm about to buy a new laptop myself and the iPad would not be good enough for what I need. I run Lightroom, Photoshop CS5, and SolidWorks which all demand alot from a laptop. I have friends who have the same needs but also have an iPad that they use just to play games on and surf the internet on their lunchbreaks at work. Yes its an expensive gadget, but if you don't see the point in them, then don't get one and don't worry yourself about it. I don't.

Exactly the reason why it would be pointless me having one. My laptop does what I need absolutely fine.

[ioan]

Why should people care about how every device they own works, so long as it does what they want it to?

I might be the only one who likes to understand it in order to use it to it's full extent or try to improve it's use.
Just a personal preference of mine.

[Andrewmcm]

But that's the thing. You don't have to understand how a kettle works to use it properly. You don't have to understand how a DVD player works to use it properly. Why should you be forced to understand how a computer works in order to use it properly? That kind of mindset goes back to the bad old days of IRQs, DMAs and memory management when computers where a niche tool. Now that they're a mainstream device their interface and software should be sufficiently mature so as to make their use seamless.

[BDunnell]

But that's the thing. You don't have to understand how a kettle works to use it properly. You don't have to understand how a DVD player works to use it properly. Why should you be forced to understand how a computer works in order to use it properly? That kind of mindset goes back to the bad old days of IRQs, DMAs and memory management when computers where a niche tool. Now that they're a mainstream device their interface and software should be sufficiently mature so as to make their use seamless.

I suppose it depends on whether one is interested or not. I'm not. ioan probably is. To that, I would argue that one doesn't have to, and shouldn't be expected to, be interested in every subject under the sun.

[ioan]

You don't have to understand how a DVD player works to use it properly.

Because it's so easy to break an OS by doing stupid things? Because if you don't understand it you will never be prepared for a failure (like not having backups for example). Believe me, in most cases, like 99% of them, when a PC doesn't work as it should it is because the user did something wrong due to lack of the most basic knowledge about what an ordinary application is, what an antivirus application is, what the OS is, what drivers, firmware and BIOS are.

[BDunnell]

Because it's so easy to break an OS by doing stupid things? Because if you don't understand it you will never be prepared for a failure (like not having backups for example). Believe me, in most cases, like 99% of them, when a PC doesn't work as it should it is because the user did something wrong due to lack of the most basic knowledge about what an ordinary application is, what an antivirus application is, what the OS is, what drivers, firmware and BIOS are.

I have no idea what BIOS is, and I must say I don't feel I'm missing out. To me, this sort of stuff is beyond my capabilities to an extent that I don't believe I could ever learn about it sufficiently to make any difference to anything I do. My skills and interests lie elsewhere. If something goes wrong, I would prefer to ask someone more knowledgeable. As the old saying goes, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

[ioan]

I have no idea what BIOS is, and I must say I don't feel I'm missing out. To me, this sort of stuff is beyond my capabilities to an extent that I don't believe I could ever learn about it sufficiently to make any difference to anything I do. My skills and interests lie elsewhere. If something goes wrong, I would prefer to ask someone more knowledgeable. As the old saying goes, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

That is also a valid point of view.

[BDunnell]

That is also a valid point of view.

I should add that it has resulted largely from having once worked with someone who thought he 'knew about IT', but, in reality, didn't.

[Andrewmcm]

Because it's so easy to break an OS by doing stupid things? Because if you don't understand it you will never be prepared for a failure (like not having backups for example). Believe me, in most cases, like 99% of them, when a PC doesn't work as it should it is because the user did something wrong due to lack of the most basic knowledge about what an ordinary application is, what an antivirus application is, what the OS is, what drivers, firmware and BIOS are.

And again that's an old-fashioned way of thinking about the operation of a computer. At the risk of harping on about Apple, their closed system makes most of these things superfluous. Particularly backups, as the Time Machine feature provides incremental backups to an external drive. I had a Lion-based mess on my hands on my laptop, so I reached for my backup, selected an old copy of my computer and a few hours later my laptop was back to where it was pre-Lion. No need to know how it works, just some basic knowledge as to how to restore a backup was required. Foolproof.

Take a look at the IT you use from the point of view of a novice. The majority of those things you describe should not be relevant to their every day experience of using the machine. Only the process involved in learning an application should be required for a user. Learning processes relevant to making a piece of hardware function properly should not. Why do you think plug and play was invented? Why do we now no longer have EMS, XMS, IRQ, DMA controller information visible to users? To make the process of making the hardware work much more straightforward of course.

The point here, and linking it back to the tablet stuff, is that IT now runs our lives. It should provide us with functionality and transparency that allows us to focus on using the hardware, rather than trying to make the hardware work.

[Valve Bounce]

I think that many also use IT for fun and games.

[rah]

I didn't see it discussed here, but a major benefit of having an ipad / high spec tablet over a a laptop / netbook is the screen. An ips screen from an ipad is so much better to look at and watch stuff on over a laptop screen. I have a laptop and a PC and I know how both work very well. I got an ipad for the wife this year and we both use it a lot. My son like it as well and he is only 2.

[Dave B]

But that's the thing. You don't have to understand how a kettle works to use it properly. You don't have to understand how a DVD player works to use it properly. Why should you be forced to understand how a computer works in order to use it properly? That kind of mindset goes back to the bad old days of IRQs, DMAs and memory management when computers where a niche tool. Now that they're a mainstream device their interface and software should be sufficiently mature so as to make their use seamless.

I think in a nutshell that's the difference between the Apple and Android experiences.

Out of the box the iPhone or iPad is a very good product and - crucially for most people - just works. It's got a decent browser, decent messaging, decent media player (to give just 3 examples); but if you want to upgrade any of those you face a bit of a struggle.

My experience of Android suggests that when you open the box you have somewhat of a blank canvass. None of the default tools have that polish of their Apple equivalents. However - and for me this is the crucial part - it's a doddle to install a far superior browser (Dolphin HD), messaging client (Handcent), media player (Winamp or 3) etc etc. Many consumers will not or can not do this, and will perhaps not enjoy as seamless experience as they could with Apple products.

I'm a geek, I have no problem configuring my device to suit my exact needs. I've become accustomed to doing it with a PC, so when I use a portable device that offers many of the same capabilities I expect the same level of control. For me Android offers this; Apple does not. For millions of others Apple just works, Android is to complicated.

Bottom line is if a device fits your requirements at a sensible price point, buy it. :)

[ioan]

And again that's an old-fashioned way of thinking about the operation of a computer.

That's the only way to keep your PC running without any problems whatsoever.
Than again I only work with computers 12 hours a day, from servers to tabs, so what do I really know?

[BDunnell]

That's the only way to keep your PC running without any problems whatsoever.
Than again I only work with computers 12 hours a day, from servers to tabs, so what do I really know?

ioan, far be it for me to repeat myself, but again I say that I don't believe everyone should be expected to have the level of understanding you seem to believe is desirable. The fact that you and others have that knowledge is great, but you can't expect anyone to build it up. I am not technically-minded, so I just think it's beyond me.

[donKey jote]

Than again I only work with computers 12 hours a day, from servers to tabs, so what do I really know?

There you go again !
12 hours a day... either you're an extremely inefficient worker or you're taking half a person's job from them ;) :p

[Andrewmcm]

That's the only way to keep your PC running without any problems whatsoever.
Than again I only work with computers 12 hours a day, from servers to tabs, so what do I really know?

Ask yourself this question: "Why do I have to know so much about how the machine I'm typing on works?" If your answer is truly 'as that's the only way to keep it running without any problems' then perhaps you should think a little more about why it takes this much effort to maintain the machine, and the obvious attraction that people have to tablets in this regard.

12 hours per day is not an unusual amount of time to be using a computer in the modern world. Wouldn't your life be a lot easier if you could use more of that time to be productive, rather than having to consider the functionality of your computer and how to prevent it from misbehaving?

Technical expertise in the use of a computer is great. I know a lot about computers too and can fix most issues of my own accord. For modern IT hardware and software, however, this really should be a last resort as the machines should function as intended without significant technical user intervention.

[ioan]

There you go again !
12 hours a day... either you're an extremely inefficient worker or you're taking half a person's job from them ;) :p

Who knows?! :D

[ioan]

Ask yourself this question: "Why do I have to know so much about how the machine I'm typing on works?" If your answer is truly 'as that's the only way to keep it running without any problems' then perhaps you should think a little more about why it takes this much effort to maintain the machine, and the obvious attraction that people have to tablets in this regard.

12 hours per day is not an unusual amount of time to be using a computer in the modern world. Wouldn't your life be a lot easier if you could use more of that time to be productive, rather than having to consider the functionality of your computer and how to prevent it from misbehaving?

Technical expertise in the use of a computer is great. I know a lot about computers too and can fix most issues of my own accord. For modern IT hardware and software, however, this really should be a last resort as the machines should function as intended without significant technical user intervention.

Let's tell my colleague who come every morning to my office that her Lotus Notes just throws a hissy fit and no one knows why.
And to top it all, last time I checked I can't have my Lotus Notes with it's 50 Gigs of local databases on an iPad.

And because I know how a PC/OS/etc works I can avoid spending half of my time on the phone with the tech support, and thus being productive for most of the time.

I do see where you are coming from when you say that the user should only know how to use the applications on the PC/pad/tab/whatever, but I see that as a means of considering people stupid, which not all of them are.
IMO the future is not pad for dumb people, it's open source for everyone and each can pick what he/she thinks is needed.

Anyway in the end all I can say is let's agree to disagree.

[BleAivano]

can't say i understand what people are moaing about. If you are a skilled computer user you buy the components and assemble the competer
yourself just liket hose who are skilled in car-mechanics can build their own custom car.

But for those whore not skilled in computers, its very easy to go to the store and buy a computer.
At your desire the store can install all the software that is necessary for the user to use it so that he or she
just have to plug in the power cord when they get home to get started and then press the power key.

regarding Android what is so difficult about it? I am pretty sure that its not more difficult to get started with that one then Iphone/ipads.
Installing apps on android is very simple to do from the android market website.

I also agree with oion, no matter if you have an Iphone or an Android phone or MacOs PC/Windows PC you will need to learn how to use it.

[CaptainRaiden]

What I have learned so far, and while I maintain my original view on iPads, I kinda see the point that guys like Andrew, BDunnell and Henners are trying to make.

A tablet like iPad is great for users who want a no-fuss device that just works out of the box, and you don't really need to be an expert to figure one out. This is a hard one to digest for people who know how IT stuff works, but I can understand the POV. On top of that, a company like Apple provides great customer service. Which, price wise, if you compare the lowest spec iPad 2 16 GB with a basic notebook/netbook, to do the most basic tasks such as net surfing, word processing, playing basic games, and other basic stuff, is not that bad. The hardware is still lacking, but they can still do most of the same stuff. I would still maintain my view that for the things the iPad does, Apple do demand way too much money. But hey, it's Apple, and they've always done that, and if people are happy with that, then good for them. It is their choice after all.

I would however point out that as you go onto higher spec versions, for example an iPad 2 with 64 GB memory, it fails horribly against a high spec laptop, which you can get for more or less the same price. And anybody who needs processing power for their work, wouldn't even take a second look at the iPad, but people already know this. So, yeah, in a nutshell, basic iPad 2 vs basic notebook, the iPad looks okay. But the best, top of the line, full spec iPad 2 64 GB versus a similar price-range laptop, there is no competition. The laptop wins every time.

[Koz]

I'm just trying to understand why our Channel 9 resident Computer Guru Charlie Brown recommends the Macbook Pro as a most useful tool for the student/professional who needs to carry his personal laptop around with him. He never even mentioned the iPad anymore. :confused:

The single most useful program out there for students is Microsoft OneNote - which is NOT available on Mac.

[ioan]

Looks like Computer Guru Charlie Brown never studied.

[Jag_Warrior]

The single most useful program out there for students is Microsoft OneNote - which is NOT available on Mac.


But if this Charlie Brown fellow recommended the MacBook Pro (hardware, not just the OS), that computer will run Windows and any Windows program with either Parallels (which I have) or Boot Camp, which comes pre-loaded now. This is one of the reasons I just switched to a Mac. In addition to top rated build quality and customer service, I can still run Windows and Windows programs... if I want/have to. With a MacBook Pro, an engineering student could be running AutoCAD under Windows and on a connected screen, his Film School girlfriend could be running Final Cut or some other Mac OS program. My girl's nephew is a first year engineering student and he has a MacBook Pro. If we can ever get him a girlfriend (Art School or otherwise), maybe we can put that moment on YouTube. :D

I've had my iMac for about a week now and I'm both pleased and amazed with the hardware and the software. With the processing power and dual displays on this thing, there are now two old computers that I can unplug and put in storage. My only regret is that I waited 25 years to go back to the Mac platform (though because of software issues, I had to wait until the Intel Macs came out). But in the U.S., the MacBook (Air and Pros) is the top selling laptop, and even more so on college campuses.

But on tablets, nope... no plans to buy one yet. But I wouldn't buy a cheap netbook or notebook either. Additional features and apps might help some future version of the iPad to meet my needs. But I can't think of a scenario where a netbook would serve a real purpose, for me personally.

[Koz]

But if this Charlie Brown fellow recommended the MacBook Pro (hardware, not just the OS), that computer will run Windows and any Windows program with either Parallels (which I have) or Boot Camp, which comes pre-loaded now. This is one of the reasons I just switched to a Mac.
Which I feel defeats the purpose of getting a Mac in the first place.
You can get better hardware of a better price.


In addition to top rated build quality and customer service, I can still run Windows and Windows programs... if I want/have to.

Build quality? Many would disagree with this myth.
Apple isn't know for it's build quality, people seem to confuse good looks for good build, they are two very different things.

There are statistics, if you care to look for them, which show that Apple has some of the worst failure rates in the laptop market. However, many Apple sheep tend to upgrade much sooner than their "PC" counterparts that doesn't notice these failures well within their life cycle. Having good customer support to get the issue sorted out also doesn't hurt.

If you want to take this further, look at laptops based on their price range, Apple is nowhere near HP and Dell's business like in terms of build quality.


With a MacBook Pro, an engineering student could be running AutoCAD under Windows and on a connected screen, his Film School girlfriend could be running Final Cut or some other Mac OS program.
What's wrong with Adobe Premire Pro?
In fact, it has surpassed Final Cut in recent years...

I can't say that I have seen students sharing their laptops with their SO...


My girl's nephew is a first year engineering student and he has a MacBook Pro. If we can ever get him a girlfriend (Art School or otherwise), maybe we can put that moment on YouTube. :D

In truth, Apple these days is a fashion and status symbol and, whether we accept it or not.
One could get OSX to run on their regular laptop... Why don't many do that?


I've had my iMac for about a week now and I'm both pleased and amazed with the hardware and the software. With the processing power and dual displays on this thing, there are now two old computers that I can unplug and put in storage.
I don't understand what you are saying...
Apple does not make processing power. Intel does. The same chips you can buy for yourself in any shop, I don't see how that makes Apple superior.

Dual displays are not Mac specific, if you didn't know...
I could have a 4 screen setup on my current machine if I wanted to...


But in the U.S., the MacBook (Air and Pros) is the top selling laptop, and even more so on college campuses.
See above.


But on tablets, nope... no plans to buy one yet. But I wouldn't buy a cheap netbook or notebook either. Additional features and apps might help some future version of the iPad to meet my needs. But I can't think of a scenario where a netbook would serve a real purpose, for me personally.
Yep.

Mac does not make a superior product in any way shape or form, but they know how to market and sell it - which is the bottom line.

[Valve Bounce]

I can only say that I wish I had a laptop in my student and earlier engineering days that ran Autocad, and solve moment distribution on structures, and the many things they do now.
I had to use a slide rule or use 12 figure logs.

[Koz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhsWzJo2sN4

What irony.

[Jag_Warrior]

Which I feel defeats the purpose of getting a Mac in the first place.
You can get better hardware of a better price.

I'm sorry, but how would running a variety of OS's on any machine defeat its purpose? I don't follow that logic at all.



Build quality? Many would disagree with this myth. Well, you and the folks from Consumer Reports can argue about that (http://allthingsd.com/20110525/macbooks-sweep-consumer-reports-laptop-ratings/). But generally speaking, when looking at (unbiased ;) ) sources, using objective measurement standards, the build quality and customer service from Apple is as I said it was.



Apple isn't know for it's build quality, people seem to confuse good looks for good build, they are two very different things.Actually, the company's products are generally known for build quality. But I would be happy to review whatever variation, PPM or DPMO data you have that points to the contrary.


There are statistics, if you care to look for them, which show that Apple has some of the worst failure rates in the laptop market. However, many Apple sheep tend to upgrade much sooner than their "PC" counterparts that doesn't notice these failures well within their life cycle. Having good customer support to get the issue sorted out also doesn't hurt.Certainly, I'd love to see those data sets. As if I don't get to read enough of those sorts of reports during the week, I'd love nothing more than reading a few more on the weekend. Just post the links and I really will read them though. You know what they say, "the more you know... the more you know." Or something like that. But outside of amateur sites, that rely on someone asking their circle of Facebook friends what they think is good or bad, sites that rely on more objective quality measures have typically found that Apple laptops range from mid pack (on the low end) to top ranked (at the high end). I have been unable to find any reputable site which supports your assertion that "Apple has some of the worst failure rates in the laptop market." So it seems that was a bit of exaggerated hyperbole. Yes? Yes.

In the worst study for Apple, a SquareTrade study from 2009 (http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9141032/Mac_laptops_less_reliable_than_ASUS_Sony_notebooks ) ranked Apple laptops 4th in a multi-year reliability survey of nine notebook makers. Over a three year span, ASUS, Toshiba and Sony had malfunction rates of 15.6%, 15.7% and 16.8%. Apple's was 17.4%.


If you want to take this further, look at laptops based on their price range, Apple is nowhere near HP and Dell's business like in terms of build quality.Really? Nowhere near, you say? Please provide this data. All objective data and surveys that I have seen rank current Apple laptops at or near the top - at least in the top 5 in every survey. And it's very odd that you should claim how great HP's are, since in the older (2009) SquareTrade study (linked above), Hewlett-Packard came in dead last, with a failure rate of 25.6% after 3 years. In the 2011 Consumer Reports rankings, Apple laptops took 1st place in every screen size category except 13 inch, where the Samsung 900X3A took 1st.



What's wrong with Adobe Premire Pro?
In fact, it has surpassed Final Cut in recent years...I'm sorry, but where did I say there was anything wrong with Premiere Pro? I mentioned that as an aside. I really don't give two farts about either program. Except for an (unmentionable) episode in the 90's, in a hotel suite in Georgetown, I've never made or tried to edit a movie in my life. But if I ever do, I'll certainly keep Adobe Premiere Pro in mind.


I can't say that I have seen students sharing their laptops with their SO...You should hang around the young folks more. They're doing all kinds of freaky stuff these days. Boys dressing like girls and girls dressing like boys. Mens with mens and womens with womens! Lawdy, hep us all! My girl's nephew said there were even girls staying on the same floor of his dorm with the boys. Oh yeah, yeah... I bet there's going to be lots of "laptop sharing" going on there! I just don't know what the world is coming to...



In truth, Apple these days is a fashion and status symbol and, whether we accept it or not.
One could get OSX to run on their regular laptop... Why don't many do that?Yes, Apple is a fashion and status symbol in some circles. It is, afterall, one of the most valuable brands in the world. As I recall, in a 2010 study, it was ahead of several luxury brands, including Ferrari and Rolex. But apparently some don't understand that this distinction does not necessarily detract from the functionality of the underlying products. But yes, there are people who might buy a Mac now who might have bought a Dell back when it was the cool brand ("Dude, I'm gettin' a Dell!"). It is a fashion and status brand, but is that all it is? To those who rely on hyperbole and exaggeration, possibly it is. But to more rational observers, it's actually a good deal more than just that.

As for running the Mac OS X on a Hackintosh, yes, I'm sure there are some who can (successfully) do that. I know someone who can and has... but he was a principle at a software company. It's not something that the average person is going to tackle, I don't believe. I know a fellow who put a 350 Chevy in a Jaguar XJ6. I thought that was rather silly too. But to each his own.



I don't understand what you are saying...
Apple does not make processing power. Intel does. The same chips you can buy for yourself in any shop, I don't see how that makes Apple superior.And neither does Dell nor HP. I can build my own car engine or buy one from a shop too. But I'm not going to do that either. My time is better spent doing that which generates the most income for me... where the computer is more often than not, simply a tool. What I'm simply saying is that I greatly appreciate the package and how well it was put together. Understand that each component (whether it's purchased or made in-house) has its own opportunity for defect. And the assembly process for each of those components has a separate set of opportunities for defect. A monkey can receive a box of (defect free) computer parts from the FedEx guy. But getting the monkey to successfully assemble those parts into a relatively defect free computer is a different matter. The same is true in automotive or any other multi-component assembly or manufacturing process. And this is one primary reason why there is variation in quality from even WinTel box and laptop makers.



Dual displays are not Mac specific, if you didn't know...
I could have a 4 screen setup on my current machine if I wanted to...Exactly where did I say that the dual display was Mac specific? I've had a variety of dual displays (on WinTel boxes) over the years. Nowhere was it said or suggested that they were rare or special. I thought I was rather clear in saying that I was able to disable two other, older, less powerful machines by having the configuration that I chose.



See above.Why? An assertion based on a subjective opinion or bias doesn't tell me much.




Mac does not make a superior product in any way shape or form, but they know how to market and sell it - which is the bottom line.As the kiddies say these days, "whatever..."

I wish you nothing but joy & happiness with whatever your computer of choice is though. :)

[ioan]

I can only say that I wish I had a laptop in my student and earlier engineering days that ran Autocad, and solve moment distribution on structures, and the many things they do now.
I had to use a slide rule or use 12 figure logs.

:up:

At least I had a desktop to do that! :)

[Andrewmcm]

The single most useful program out there for students is Microsoft OneNote - which is NOT available on Mac.

Never heard of it. Never seen any of the undergrads that I teach using it either. Most of them take the .pdf files off of my Virtual Learning Environment site, put them on their iPads and use that as their repository for lecture notes.

[ioan]

Never heard of it. Never seen any of the undergrads that I teach using it either. Most of them take the .pdf files off of my Virtual Learning Environment site, put them on their iPads and use that as their repository for lecture notes.

OneNote is for those who take lots of notes and/or write articles. It is really good for these needs.

[Valve Bounce]

:up:

At least I had a desktop to do that! :)

You are not going to believe this, but when I worked in the Bridge Branch designing bridges, there used to be one electric calculator, the size of a typewriter, that used to calculate by clunking and clunking itself silly. One of the engineers hogged it continuously, while the rest of us used our slide rules. I look at my "Big Display" electronic calculator which is solar powered (can work of light from a light bulb), has a memory and square root, and I just think:"If only I had this simple calculator then". Work would have been so much easier.

[ioan]

You are not going to believe this, but when I worked in the Bridge Branch designing bridges, there used to be one electric calculator, the size of a typewriter, that used to calculate by clunking and clunking itself silly. One of the engineers hogged it continuously, while the rest of us used our slide rules. I look at my "Big Display" electronic calculator which is solar powered (can work of light from a light bulb), has a memory and square root, and I just think:"If only I had this simple calculator then". Work would have been so much easier.

In fact I do believe you. :)

[Mark]

The Gadget Show on Channel 5 are testing budget tablets right now.

But they all looked pretty pants really!

[Andrewmcm]

Yep, some were sluggish but had good battery life and the ones with better processors needed recharging after one day. Although this was a budget tablet comparison, I don't think Apple are worrying too much at this stage. The clear difference is the software, and Apple just have it nailed. Companies brag about their tablets having better processors, and larger memory that on paper blows the iPad away, but in reality the user experience is nowhere near IMO.

See my post on this thread regarding that HP tablet to iPad comparison. Same thing applies to modern day competitors to the iPad. :-)

[Koz]

I'm sorry, but how would running a variety of OS's on any machine defeat its purpose? I don't follow that logic at all.
And you can do that on any machine... Which is why I see buying Apple hardware to run primarily non-apple software stupid.



Well, you and the folks from Consumer Reports can argue about that (http://allthingsd.com/20110525/macbooks-sweep-consumer-reports-laptop-ratings/). But generally speaking, when looking at (unbiased ;) ) sources, using objective measurement standards, the build quality and customer service from Apple is as I said it was.


Actually, the company's products are generally known for build quality. But I would be happy to review whatever variation, PPM or DPMO data you have that points to the contrary.

Certainly, I'd love to see those data sets. As if I don't get to read enough of those sorts of reports during the week, I'd love nothing more than reading a few more on the weekend. Just post the links and I really will read them though. You know what they say, "the more you know... the more you know." Or something like that. But outside of amateur sites, that rely on someone asking their circle of Facebook friends what they think is good or bad, sites that rely on more objective quality measures have typically found that Apple laptops range from mid pack (on the low end) to top ranked (at the high end). I have been unable to find any reputable site which supports your assertion that "Apple has some of the worst failure rates in the laptop market." So it seems that was a bit of exaggerated hyperbole. Yes? Yes.

In the worst study for Apple, a SquareTrade study from 2009 (http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9141032/Mac_laptops_less_reliable_than_ASUS_Sony_notebooks ) ranked Apple laptops 4th in a multi-year reliability survey of nine notebook makers. Over a three year span, ASUS, Toshiba and Sony had malfunction rates of 15.6%, 15.7% and 16.8%. Apple's was 17.4%.
It appears I was wrong.



Really? Nowhere near, you say? Please provide this data. All objective data and surveys that I have seen rank current Apple laptops at or near the top - at least in the top 5 in every survey. And it's very odd that you should claim how great HP's are, since in the older (2009) SquareTrade study (linked above), Hewlett-Packard came in dead last, with a failure rate of 25.6% after 3 years. In the 2011 Consumer Reports rankings, Apple laptops took 1st place in every screen size category except 13 inch, where the Samsung 900X3A took 1st.
As I specifically said "BUSINESS" laptops. I didn't see an indication that they were tested, because of the use of the word "premium" rather than professional/business. I could not find any data on business laptops, so I guess that makes me wrong on this count too.



You should hang around the young folks more. They're doing all kinds of freaky stuff these days. Boys dressing like girls and girls dressing like boys. Mens with mens and womens with womens! Lawdy, hep us all! My girl's nephew said there were even girls staying on the same floor of his dorm with the boys. Oh yeah, yeah... I bet there's going to be lots of "laptop sharing" going on there! I just don't know what the world is coming to...
As having lived in a university dorm for the better part of the last 2 years, I can say almost everyone had their own laptops. I never saw any laptop sharing whatsoever.



As for running the Mac OS X on a Hackintosh, yes, I'm sure there are some who can (successfully) do that. I know someone who can and has... but he was a principle at a software company. It's not something that the average person is going to tackle, I don't believe.
Installing OS X on a PC is trivial. You don't need to be a principle at a software company, you just need to have the ability to follow simple instructions...




Exactly where did I say that the dual display was Mac specific? I've had a variety of dual displays (on WinTel boxes) over the years. Nowhere was it said or suggested that they were rare or special. I thought I was rather clear in saying that I was able to disable two other, older, less powerful machines by having the configuration that I chose.
You said it in such a condescending way, I assumed that is what you were saying.



As the kiddies say these days, "whatever..."

I wish you nothing but joy & happiness with whatever your computer of choice is though. :)
Likewise.

[Jag_Warrior]

And you can do that on any machine... Which is why I see buying Apple hardware to run primarily non-apple software stupid.

You run software on Dells and HP's that aren't produced by those OEM's, don't you? And anyway, who said anything about "primarily running non-Apple software"? But even in that case, I ran software from a variety of producers, other than Apple, when I got my first Mac back in the mid 80's. Some of that software was even made by Microsoft. :eek: :D Fast forward to today: I'm now running new (Mac) programs and old (Windows) programs side by side when I need to. This is why I'm not particularly religious: I can't be bothered with following arbitrary rules that get in the way of being productive. That and I tend to eat pork and other meats whenever my tummy tells me to. :) I just use whatever I need to use to get me to whereever I need/want to be.




As having lived in a university dorm for the better part of the last 2 years, I can say almost everyone had their own laptops. I never saw any laptop sharing whatsoever.Not that that was even slightly central to what I was saying, but I'd still say that you kids need to learn to share. My girl has her own computer, but I share my "laptop" with her whenever I can. ;)




Installing OS X on a PC is trivial. You don't need to be a principle at a software company, you just need to have the ability to follow simple instructions... http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/how-to-install-mac-os-x-on-a-pc-without-using-a-mac/
From what I've been told and from what I've read, it seems that you are over-simplifying the process. At best, it seems to be a hit or miss proposal, which has limited practicality and yields varying degrees of functionality. For someone who enjoys tinkering with computers, and doesn't mind having a machine that will probably have to be worked on from time to time, I guess this would be fine & fun. I don't particularly have the time or desire to engage in such an activity. But for those who do, have fun.

From a self-described geek who has actually done this "trivial" install:

It definitely does take time to get things right, depending on your hardware. I went through a lot of pain before I realized I should have been using the iBoot Supported version rather than the iBoot NVIDIA version of the boot CD. It also took me a while to find the easiest solution for the boot loader installation, because I kept getting the instant reboot and couldn't figure out what was causing it. I finally tracked down the culprit to be the busratio.

It takes a lot of research, tinkering, and patience to get everything just right. Once you do get it right, it's very nice to finally have a working Hackintosh. Weekend project is a great way to describe it.

For those in the market for a new computer, it's always nice to know what hardware configurations work and what steps are necessary to get it to work. For individuals in that situation, this and similar how-tos can be invaluable. For those that are using different hardware configurations, it could turn out to be a rough ride. (http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/how-to-install-mac-os-x-on-a-pc-without-using-a-mac/)

One thing I will say about Mac OS Lion vs. Snow Leopard (which my girl had on her machine), if one is familiar with iOS, with Lion, the transition to OS X isn't nearly as bad as I was thinking it would be. Still a slight learning curve for this longtime Windows user. But even for a person like me, who doesn't get into reading directions (and no, ladies, I also don't ask for directions when driving - I'm a guy!), it hasn't been bad at all. It's actually been fun to learn something new. This experience has prompted me to take a another CAD/CAM course at the local college... just for fun.