schumi's wonderful career

[Garry Walker]

As another topic got closed based on my exchange with my new-found BFF, captainraiden, but I thought the content of the thread too valuable to waste (LOL), I will post my last message from that thread here, to spark up the debate that might actually have some interesting points.

Let's keep it civil (LOL)

--------

Being shown the way by Barbie for the last two years somehow doesn't go with the "greatest" theory.

Schumacher has been faster than Barbie in most races this year.


DC was never a contender, only when Mika lost his passion.
So mika lost his passion in 1997?



And on equal terms, Hakkinen was very much a match for Michael.
LOL. Mika was nowhere near as good as MS. Unless you want to claim McLaren and Ferrari were equal in 1998?


It took Ferrari a whole lot of testing and new parts for Michael to finally take that crown in 2000, for ex. the 049b engine Monza 2000 onwards, and the fact that Bridgestone favored Ferrari mid season, the reason why so many teams jumped to Michelin when they entered the sport.

Ferrari was the only team to bring upgrades and new developments to their car throughout the season?



Schumacher's WDC in 1994 is clouded by his "accident" with Hill, and the WDC in 1995 also tainted because of Benetton's mysterious traction control. 2001, 2002 and 2004 championships were won in clearly the best car in the field, which any of the top tier drivers now could do just as easily.


1) The accident with Hill was 100% the fault of Damon. There was no room for him, there never was going to be any room for him, yet he stupidly tried to bully his way through.
2)In 1995 there were no TC accusations and no TC was ever found on Benetton. Now, McLaren is a different case in that they actually got caught cheating in 1994.
Oh and DC admitted that Williams Renault tested the car with TC after it was banned already. Cheaters!



Besides age is not a valid excuse anymore. Rubens is only 3 years younger, and he did absolutely fine against Button in 2009, and is doing so now too against a much younger Maldonado.

Yeah, Maldonado the superstar.


I've seen 45+ year old combat sport veterans outstrike and outlast much younger opponents. Agreed they don't have to endure g-forces, but people who have been athletes all their life, have a much longer prime period, and their reflexes are still very strong for a very long time.

The second excuse is time away from sport. Well, he has had two winter testing periods and almost two seasons under his belt now, and I'm sure many, many hours in the simulator. When is he gonna start beating Nico Rosberg decisively and consistently?
He's just about only matching him now. Does he need half a decade to get used to racing again??

MS does not use the simulator for the same reason Kimi doesnt - they get sick in it.
Do you think MS is as good now as he was in 2001?



Agreed that he brings in good sponsorship money, and it makes sense as the whole German Mercedes-Schumacher affair, but there are a lot more capable drivers out there who would be making good use of that seat.


LOL. Like who? Name one.


Because Ferrari clearly had the biggest budget of all in those years, and the years following, everybody knows this. Only Toyota had a bigger budget than Ferrari and Mclaren in 2008. And before you go on describing Michael as some brilliant car setup guy, the biggest piece of the pie goes to the actual engineers, designers and mechanics who worked at the factory.

The only thing you have right here is that Michael or no other driver designs the car. Driver has very little to do with the quality of his car, that is up to the engineers.


How old are you? Are you aware of the whole 1994 controversy at all? I would have asked you to Google it, but here, I'll help ya out: 1994 Formula One cheating controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

F1 News - Grandprix.com > GP Encyclopedia > People > Tad Czapski

That Benetton still to this day is one of the most blatantly illegal cars to ever win a championship. There were allegations that Benetton were still using it in 1995. Also, search Youtube for Michael's "brilliant" starts during the Benetton years where he used to gobble up 3-4 cars within the first 50 meters. *cough* illegal launch control. *cough*


Name examples of those super starts he had in 1994 and 1995 where he overtook many cars at the start? Examples!
The only brilliant start he had was at France in 1994 where he went from 3rd to 1st, but other than that he had plenty of bad starts.


The flexible wings row was again an allegation at Ferrari during, surprise, surprise, Michael's time there. The double diffuser wasn't cheating, or else they'd have banned it. Instead, they allowed all the other teams to come up with their own interpretations. If the double diffuser was so advantageous, Toyota would have won as well, as them and Brawn were the only ones coming out of the box with it.

Were Ferrari punished for it? No.
Was it illegal? No



Also, Michael didn't win the 1994 championship "fair and square". Shamelessly punting out your championship rival at the last race of the season is not "fair and square".

The one who did the punting was stupid Damon who tried to overtake in a place where it was impossible.


See Michael and Damon accident at Adelaide 1994. He was using illegal TC, and yet was about to get beaten by Damon Hill, and when he saw the championship slipping away, he just turned into Damon, breaking his suspension arm. I don't think any other driver in the modern era has been that blatantly ruthless, careless and cheating. Now, the way Button, Seb and Lewis have won their championship is what you call fair and square.


Again you keep going on about TC and Benetton having it. Reality is not your friend though. TC was never found on the Benetton, never was there any proof they used it. Do you have proof that they used it? If you dont, then admit you were speaking BS.


BTW he was disqualified twice during 1994.
Do you even know for what?



Ferrari were disqualified at the end of 1999 as well for using illegal barge boards, and then FIA withdrew the disqualification and let them fight for the title at Suzuka.


Guess because they knew the disqualification was pure crap and the wrong decision to make.



Also in 2003, when Ferrari and your precious Schumi were getting beaten, they launched a protest against Michelin regarding tyre width, which BTW was the same since 2001. FIA banned those tyres mid-season, which allowed Michael and Ferrari to take the 2003 crown. These are the kinds of incidents that got FIA the infamous name, "Ferrari International Assiatance" FYI. Even the great Ross Brawn was struggling for answers.

So Michelin was cheating for over 2 years? That is just disgusting.



So, the 1994 title was won in a blatantly illegal car. Damon dropped the ball in 1995. 2001, 2002, 2004 titles won in clearly the best car in the field, 2003 title again shrouded in controversy, won by only two points over the newbie Kimi, and all this while his biggest competition being DC, Montoya and his little brother. Overrated driver? Yes. His "greatness" is simply overamplified by his impressive stats, which either Alonso, Lewis, Seb or Webber would have achieved in those dominating Ferraris, as Kimi demonstrated in 2007 by winning the WDC.

LOL.
Where is your proof that Benetton was illegal in 1994?



With better races, he can definitely outclass Michael, as he did last year.

He has been slower in races, faster in qualifying.




athletes even as old as 48 have done pretty well in other sports.

F1 is not "other sports".
Sure you can be great at darts even at 60, but F1 is a different kind of sport.




The only reason he held up Lewis at Monza was because his Mercedes wasn't running the DRS wing, and Lewis' Mclaren was, and hence Lewis couldn't get in the slipsteam anywhere else on the track but in the DRS zones. On other parts of the track he was blocking like a bitch, and the FIA had to warn him for that. And even when Lewis did get in the slipstream on the start/finish straight, the way his engine was set up, kept hitting the rev limiter much before Michael did. It's just simple stuff if you paid more attention. Just don't be like other Michael fanboys, they have an orgasm anytime he's anywhere near the top or mixing it with the big boys, and every other "detail" is conveniently ignored.


MS was teaching a nice lesson to Hamilton at Monza and such blocking should be part of racing. Why bother racing if you just have to give up your place to the guy behind you?
That FIA has moved in to ban such racing only makes me less of an f1 fan. I have missed the last few races and have had zero interest in what is happening in F1 nowadays.

[Rollo]

And he denied crashing with Levy into Jupiter in 1994*

*Obscure science reference and pun!

[Mark]

And he denied crashing with Levy into Jupiter in 1994*

*Obscure science reference and pun!

Hardly obscure!!

[The Black Knight]

Schumi is and always will be one of the all time greats. The people that use his lack of pace to Rosberg at his age now to slam his past achievements are just the same people that didn't like him winning at Ferrari. Most of them are probably British.

Schumacher is in the top 3 of all time. You don't win 7 championships by luck alone, you win it through a combination of luck and sheer brilliance.

[ioan]

Schumacher is overrated IMO. Thats about it. :D

Murray Walker would disagree. But then again what does he know about F1? :laugh:

[i_max2k2]

Schumi is and always will be one of the all time greats. The people that use his lack of pace to Rosberg at his age now to slam his past achievements are just the same people that didn't like him winning at Ferrari. Most of them are probably British.

Schumacher is in the top 3 of all time. You don't win 7 championships by luck alone, you win it through a combination of luck and sheer brilliance.

+1


Murray Walker would disagree. But then again what does he know about F1? :laugh:

Truly, after Schumi's retirement in 2006 there was an interview clipping and he was asked to rate between Senna & MS. I wont compare both drivers, to me they represent the very best of F1, neither ahead nor behind.

[i_max2k2]

Jackie Stewart has got 3 WDC's and he wouldn't agree, but then again it does make me wonder whether or not he would take this thread alot more seriously than I have. ;)

Not saying Jackie Stewart has less credibility, but as a person travelling with the F1 circle for those many years, and seeing drivers race after race as closely as Murray Walker did, I certainly dont think Stewart saw as much.

[Malbec]

Regarding the Benetton in 1994 and TC, IIRC they were found to have it in the software of their launch control but claimed they didn't use it. The FIA couldn't prove otherwise.

I watched the 'Senna' film with the extra interviews a few days ago. I was struck by the description of the '94 Benetton especially by Ron Dennis who normally words things very carefully. I expected him to hedge but he talked about the Benetton cheating with the TC as being fact, not alleged.

[ioan]

Jackie Stewart has got 3 WDC's and he wouldn't agree, but then again it does make me wonder whether or not he would take this thread alot more seriously than I have. ;)

Jackie has always been very subjective, or should I say heavily biased?

[ioan]

Regarding the Benetton in 1994 and TC, IIRC they were found to have it in the software of their launch control but claimed they didn't use it. The FIA couldn't prove otherwise.

I watched the 'Senna' film with the extra interviews a few days ago. I was struck by the description of the '94 Benetton especially by Ron Dennis who normally words things very carefully. I expected him to hedge but he talked about the Benetton cheating with the TC as being fact, not alleged.

Does this mean that Ron had the proof but ate it? Or was he just being himself? Cause if he would have had the proof he wouldn't have kept it for himself.

[Storm]

schumi's wonderful career - is going to end on an extremely positive note? Like P4 in some race ? :p :

[Knock-on]

Ahhhh, the famous 'Schumy Messiah ' vs 'Schumy Cheat' debate. It ranks right up there with the 'Guns / no Guns', Conservative vs Labour, the existence of God and the Chicken and Egg arguments. :D

I think a lot of people believe he was one of the most ruthless and talented drivers to have sat behind a wheel but who acquired a couple of his crowns by cheating; either punting off rivals or illegal cars.

It's pretty unlikely that anyone will change their minds now but don't let that get in the way of a good bun fight.

[jens]

Schumi has had a wonderful career indeed. So what are we supposed to debate here? :p :

In addition to his past achievements one thing that I find astonishing that he might keep going until the age of 45 in F1 if recent rumours are anything to go by. Perhaps he will make it to 47 - you know, can't be worse than Fangio! :p :

Quite sensational to see Schumacher in such good form at such age, but it looks like there are a few drivers, who are capable of it. So from that point of view Schumi is perhaps like Mario Andretti, who was a frontrunner in IndyCar into his 50's. And I guess, if for some reason Andretti had gone to race in F1 in late 80's (in his late 40's), he wouldn't have been very embarrassing.

[BDunnell]

Jackie has always been very subjective, or should I say heavily biased?

As opposed to your utterly balanced view?

[CaptainRaiden]

As another topic got closed based on my exchange with my new-found BFF, captainraiden, but I thought the content of the thread too valuable to waste (LOL), I will post my last message from that thread here, to spark up the debate that might actually have some interesting points.

Eh, the tube steak expert is back with a troll thread. Obvious bait thread is obvious, but well, I'll bite. :p


Let's keep it civil (LOL)

LOL


Schumacher has been faster than Barbie in most races this year.

The fact remains that Nico is still ahead of Schumacher in the points table, just like he was last year. Wasn't it you who naively claimed at MS' return that he will beat Nico Rosberg in his return year? LOL. Thoroughly outclassed. Barbie just has to sort out his racecraft, and he'll put MS in his place back again. Or his race pace this year could also be affected by Pirellis, just as Lewis has been quite sub-par compared to Button during races, and how Webber has struggled against Seb as well.


So mika lost his passion in 1997?

Given that he had extra DNFs and incidents, and the difference in the points table wasn't huge at year end, I'd say it was just a one-off for Mika. DC was thoroughly outclassed the following three years, and that too without a lap-dog contract.


LOL. Mika was nowhere near as good as MS. Unless you want to claim McLaren and Ferrari were equal in 1998?

Yeah, the 1998 Ferrari was an absolute piece of horse poo. But Magic Schumacher almost won the championship in it. Meanwhile, another all-time great, Eddie Irvine, troubled the explosive DC for 3rd place in the driver's table with the same horse poo 1998 Ferrari. How lucky Ferrari really were to have such amazing two drivers!


Ferrari was the only team to bring upgrades and new developments to their car throughout the season?

No, but they brought the most significant upgrades right towards the end when it mattered the most, just when Mclaren were catching up. Besides, you forgot to comment on the fact that Bridgestone also started bringing tyre compounds to races in 2000, which suited Ferrari, which pissed off many teams, and hence the majority jumped when Michelin entered the sport.


1) The accident with Hill was 100% the fault of Damon. There was no room for him, there never was going to be any room for him, yet he stupidly tried to bully his way through.

:laugh: Exhibit A: The most biased a fan can ever be. What was Damon supposed to do behind the limping Benetton? Stay in the tow and ruin his own race? Damon's front left was right alongside Schumacher's sidepod, and he still turned into him. What, his mirrors suddenly stopped working or his brain stopped processing because of the shunt before?

gr00HlaK-L0



Yeah, Maldonado the superstar.

Maldonado the GP2 champion, same as Nico Rosberg, the GP2 champion. The difference is one is making a once lap-dog look rather impressive, and the other is making the "greatest" look rather ordinary. :laugh: The difference in Rubens and Michael's age is only 3 years, but I guess Michael is already too old for Formula 1. LMAO.


MS does not use the simulator for the same reason Kimi doesnt - they get sick in it.

Link from a proper and credible source?


Do you think MS is as good now as he was in 2001?

Can't be too bad. He did very well compared to Vettel at ROC last year, didn't he, going against regular drivers. Oh, but when it comes to F1, he is too old. :rolleyes: Do you think Mercedes would still be risking it with a senile has-been just for sponsorship money? I'm pretty sure he passed all the prerequisites and only then made the comeback and thought he could do well. Stop with the excuses. This is the first time he's been on equal footing with a teammate since his Ferrari days, and is being shown the way.


LOL. Like who? Name one.

Kimi Raikkonen. Oh, I don't know, Pastor Maldonado. :p 2010 GP2 champion. Daniel Ricciardo, Paul Di Resta, Kamui Kobayashi. All would make much better use of that seat than MS, and make more sense for the future for Mercedes.


The only thing you have right here is that Michael or no other driver designs the car. Driver has very little to do with the quality of his car, that is up to the engineers.

Yet we have some Schumacher fans (not you) claiming not so long ago that he has a mechanical engineer degree and that he sets up and tweaks the car himself. OMG.


Name examples of those super starts he had in 1994 and 1995 where he overtook many cars at the start? Examples!
The only brilliant start he had was at France in 1994 where he went from 3rd to 1st, but other than that he had plenty of bad starts.

I'm not gonna go Google every start from those years. I have something called "work" to do, you know? IIRC he had some weirdly good starts and amazing traction out of corners, which Senna noticed when following him, and it made his doubts even clearer when he saw his starts. Of course, I do not recall every single race start from 15 years ago, but that doesn't change the fact that that jump from 3rd to 1st wasn't a bit too much.


Were Ferrari punished for it? No.
Was it illegal? No

Were Ferrari investigated for it? Yes.
Did they have to change the bargeboards? Yes.


The one who did the punting was stupid Damon who tried to overtake in a place where it was impossible.

Yeah, Schumacher's helmet was filled with red mist, his mirrors stopped working, and he had skidmarks in his underpants from the previous corner. Oh mein Gott!


Again you keep going on about TC and Benetton having it. Reality is not your friend though. TC was never found on the Benetton, never was there any proof they used it. Do you have proof that they used it? If you dont, then admit you were speaking BS.

F1 News - Grandprix.com > GP Encyclopedia > People > Tad Czapski (http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/cref-czatad.html)

BBC - 606 - - A84553077 - Schumacher's Benetton B194 Had LTC Software (http://news.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A84553077)

1994 Formula One cheating controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Formula_One_cheating_controversy)

Motor Racing: The tarnishing of Benetton: Grand prix's leading team show a united front, but more trauma awaits on the road from the podium to the pits - Richard Williams explains the fall from grace of Formula One's audacious high-flyers - Sport - T (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing-the-tarnishing-of-benetton-grand-prixs-leading-team-show-a-united-front-but-more-trauma-awaits-on-the-road-from-the-podium-to-the-pits--richard-williams-explains-the-fall-from-grace-of-formula-ones-audacious-highflyers-1446564.html)

Of course none of these prove a 100% that Benetton were cheating, but the facts are there for everyone to see. They found the hidden option 13 to activate launch control. Why didn't Benetton hand over their access codes to the FIA when Ferrari did? Even Ross Brawn admitted in later interviews of the car having the mysterious option 13. Not only this, Benetton were again to the stewards for an illegal fuel hose and later, ride height.


Do you even know for what?

Illegally overtaking Damon on the parade lap and then ignoring the black flag, and weirdly worn out plank underneath his car suggesting illegal ground effect producing more downforce, was it?


Guess because they knew the disqualification was pure crap and the wrong decision to make.

Yes, because all disqualifications and cheating allegations are born out of thin air and have no technical data supporting them, and FIA are just a bunch of muppets. My barber can do a better job. Why did Ferrari change their bargeboards then?


So Michelin was cheating for over 2 years? That is just disgusting.

Yeah, Bridgestone and Ferrari knew every technical detail for two years, but didn't bother with it until the Michelin teams became competitive and started beating them. Why wasn't this brought to the FIA's attention sooner? Or were they sleeping?


He has been slower in races, faster in qualifying.

Only this year. Last year he was thoroughly bludgeoning the "greatest ever" (LMAO) in qualifying and races. Only recently his race pace is suffering, but he's still owning Schumacher in qualifying, 12-2, and is still ahead in the points table. Who would have thought, a GP2 champion, nobody in F1, easily beating Schumacher. This is the greatest hero stories of our time. They should write a book about it. Oh wait, or maybe Schumacher wasn't this great all along?


F1 is not "other sports".
Sure you can be great at darts even at 60, but F1 is a different kind of sport.

Nobody said anything about darts. Ever heard of UFC, or just MMA in general? Up until a few months ago, Randy Couture, at the age of 48, was mixing it up with guys 20 years his junior. Agreed that he sucked, but he wasn't that great ever anyway, has 10 losses in his career, but he did beat much younger guys. There are other fighters around the same age level that are still doing well in other organizations. At the highest level of MMA, fighters have to train their necks the same was as F1 pilots do, to withstand impact from punches, kicks and knees. The rest of their body is undoubtedly stronger than an F1 driver's. Schumacher's age is just becoming a lousy excuse by his fans who can't seem to digest the fact that 5 of his 7 championships were won in the best car in the field. He was in the right car at the right time, that's it.

[CaptainRaiden]

MS was teaching a nice lesson to Hamilton at Monza and such blocking should be part of racing. Why bother racing if you just have to give up your place to the guy behind you?

Teaching him how to block like a bitch? The "one move" rule was put into place because of MS' actions. He could have caused a serious accident by moving right in Hamilton's path at those speeds.

As for TC in 1994, having only launch control doesn't mean they didn't have TC. Teams found innovative ways to use LC as TC, even by engaging the pit limiter in corners, so it wouldn't surprise me if Senna was right about the Benetton having TC.


That FIA has moved in to ban such racing only makes me less of an f1 fan. I have missed the last few races and have had zero interest in what is happening in F1 nowadays.

While we don't agree on much, I will say that the current rules are making wheel-to-wheel racing almost impossible, and that is hurting pure racers like Lewis the most.

As for Schumacher, this will only go in circles. His fans will never see him do any wrong, and his detractors, such as moi, will only see pure evil in him. :p We can argue all year long and this thread can have a 100 pages and lots of hits and make Mark a lot of money, but the result would be the same at the end of the day. Opinions won't change. Although I do wish I could engage in the bashfest a bit more, unfortunately duty calls.

[CaptainRaiden]

As opposed to your utterly balanced view?

:rotflmao:

[BDunnell]

Give it a few more years and we could have another thread, 'Schumi's wonderful carer'.

[Ranger]

You two were having the same argument here five years ago.

[Knock-on]

You two were having the same argument here five years ago.

:laugh: The art of compromise is alive, well and living on this Forum :laugh:

I'm feeling rather old ;)

[jens]

From my recollection there was nothing extraordinary with Schumacher's starts in 1994-95. Overall it was pretty much level with other front-runners. I don't know about TC, but I can't see any case of launch control. If you want to play that card, I guess Häkkinen's starts in McLaren were more illegal - from 4th to 1st at Hockenheim 2000. Or Alonso - from 4th to 1st in Spain and Italy in 2011, oh my god!


Schumacher's age is just becoming a lousy excuse by his fans who can't seem to digest the fact that 5 of his 7 championships were won in the best car in the field. He was in the right car at the right time, that's it.

What's wrong with winning titles in best cars? It's being done most of the time like that anyway. :) Good that you are generous enough to say that his two titles were won in inferior cars. I'm not even sure I'd be that generous. I'd say his 1995 title was in an inferior car, 2000 and 2003 ones were in roughly equal best cars to rivals. Perhaps 1994 being the same case. It was a messy season and difficult to evaluate.

[BDunnell]

From my recollection there was nothing extraordinary with Schumacher's starts in 1994-95. Overall it was pretty much level with other front-runners. I don't know about TC, but I can't see any case of launch control. If you want to play that card, I guess Häkkinen's starts in McLaren were more illegal - from 4th to 1st at Hockenheim 2000. Or Alonso - from 4th to 1st in Spain and Italy in 2011, oh my god!

Was it not people hearing the engine note of the Benetton coming out of slower corners at Aida in 1994 that first aroused suspicions?

[CaptainRaiden]

What's wrong with winning titles in best cars? It's being done most of the time like that anyway. :) Good that you are generous enough to say that his two titles were won in inferior cars. I'm not even sure I'd be that generous. I'd say his 1995 title was in an inferior car, 2000 and 2003 ones were in roughly equal best cars to rivals. Perhaps 1994 being the same case. It was a messy season and difficult to evaluate.

I never said there's anything wrong with it. :) Actually good for him! It's his fans who go on like he's some sort of demigod, and also said at one time that he could win in a Minardi. Of course, all their misconceptions came crashing down after the season Ferrari had in 2005 because of the tyres, and the last two seasons he's had with Mercedes.

[Knock-on]

I never said there's anything wrong with it. :) Actually good for him! It's his fans who go on like he's some sort of demigod, and also said at one time that he could win in a Minardi.

Winning in a Minardi he could do but a Mercedes is obviously slightly more tricky ;)

[jens]

Winning in a Minardi he could do but a Mercedes is obviously slightly more tricky ;)

There is actually one guy, who has done winning in the Minardi team - Vettel. So it is not that impossible at all! :p :

[CaptainRaiden]

Winning in a Minardi he could do but a Mercedes is obviously slightly more tricky ;)

It's his age, he's too old for F1. Forget about Rubens, he's a freak. And you know, schumi's time away from F1, he went into another dimension and came back etc. etc.

I would love to meet the boss of Mercedes, you know, paying MS 8 million euros for being......too old for F1. Gotta give it to uncle though, he's doing quite well for himself.

[555-04Q2]

I see it's still fashionable to talk shyte today about shyte we've talked about for the last 2 decades...the more things change the more they stay the same :p :

[Knock-on]

I see it's still fashionable to talk shyte today about shyte we've talked about for the last 2 decades...the more things change the more they stay the same :p :

Come on mate. He is passed it. What has Schumy got ahead of him at Mercedes? Nico might be in a position to challenge for a Championship but MS is not going to add to his 7. The only thing he can hope for is a podium or two.

On the other hand, he will get more and more erratic and dangerous as he becomes desperate to hang on to younger, faster drivers.

Enough is enough. He was a year or 2 late retiring the first time around. This is just the waste of a good race seat.

[555-04Q2]

Come on mate. He is passed it. What has Schumy got ahead of him at Mercedes? Nico might be in a position to challenge for a Championship but MS is not going to add to his 7. The only thing he can hope for is a podium or two.

On the other hand, he will get more and more erratic and dangerous as he becomes desperate to hang on to younger, faster drivers.

Enough is enough. He was a year or 2 late retiring the first time around. This is just the waste of a good race seat.

I think he retired at just the right time. His last race in Brazil 2006 was one of his best coming from the back to fourth. He still had it but realised it was time to go.

I think boredom got the better of him the years after he retired and then he made his comeback. While I think he should have pursued soemthing else considering his age, it is great for fans like myself to be able to watch him again even though he is not as fast as he used to be.

[jens]

Enough is enough. He was a year or 2 late retiring the first time around. This is just the waste of a good race seat.

What do you have in mind with that? That he should have retired in 2005 or 2004? I don't think so. The 2006 title fight would have been much more boring without him. Perhaps there would have been no fight, just Alonso dominating all season. So Schumacher was still an addition to F1 and retired at the right time.

I was critical about Schumi earlier, especially in 2010. But he has improved and now I have to say he deserves to race in F1 in Mercedes GP. It is impressive, how Schumacher has managed to become relatively impressive again, when it seemed that he is hopelessly past it. Even at this age, he is proving, how his methodological approach works and he can solve issues, regardless of how difficult they seem.

Of course perhaps he is not performing that much better in 2011 than 2010, just the rules and circumstances are different. By that I mean that qualifying counts much less nowadays and besides that Mercedes is lonely in a no-mans-land in 7th and 8th, so with no-one threatening in front or behind, drivers have no-one else to race against. But in 2010 Schumi failed to get into Q3 in a tighter midfield (I remember Williams was pretty handy in qualifying trim, as was Kubica). And from there he had no chance of catching Rosberg even if his race pace was as good - because he was likely stuck behind someone and passing was rare.

[ioan]

But so are you?

Did I claim the opposite?!

[ioan]

As opposed to your utterly balanced view?

Pretty low standards you have got there Ben.

[ioan]

What's wrong with winning titles in best cars?

If it's Hamilton or Alonso then it's all fine, if it's Vettel or Schumacher, then it's cheating. Same old crap from same old trolls.

[ioan]

Was it not people hearing the engine note of the Benetton coming out of slower corners at Aida in 1994 that first aroused suspicions?

People meaning 1 person?

[ioan]

Come on mate. He is passed it. What has Schumy got ahead of him at Mercedes? Nico might be in a position to challenge for a Championship but MS is not going to add to his 7. The only thing he can hope for is a podium or two.

On the other hand, he will get more and more erratic and dangerous as he becomes desperate to hang on to younger, faster drivers.

Enough is enough. He was a year or 2 late retiring the first time around. This is just the waste of a good race seat.


You might get a heart attack one of these days given that you have to hate him for a few more years! :D

[ioan]

I suppose not, but its a bit strange of you to criticize a man for something which you openly admit to doing yourself is it not? I don't really know what else to say or try to begin to understand that logic to be honest.

I am not a public figure who's opinion you are using to support your own skewed views. Stewart is, so for his publicly expressed views he has to pay the price.

[ioan]

Don't worry ioan, there is absolutely no chance myself or any other sane person would use your skewed views to support anything they had said. Stewart has experience in the field and is entitled to his opinion, but like you he also talks utter tripe on many occasions. :s mokin:

I'm not worried at all. I would be woried if you could tell left from right and black from white, but I'm not holding my breath for it.

[F1boat]

Michael in his prime was the best, most formidable driver I have ever witnessed as a fan. Sometimes I cheered for him and sometimes against him, but he is undoubtedly a great Formula One champion, like it or not. It is also true that his accidents with Damon in 1994 and with Villeneuve in 1997 were dishonorable. That's it, really. The rest is bias...

[woody2goody]

Michael in his prime was the best, most formidable driver I have ever witnessed as a fan. Sometimes I cheered for him and sometimes against him, but he is undoubtedly a great Formula One champion, like it or not. It is also true that his accidents with Damon in 1994 and with Villeneuve in 1997 were dishonorable. That's it, really. The rest is bias...

Well said mate. I've been his biggest fan and also a detractor of his over the years, but in hindsight it was more to do with the pro-Ferrari attitude of the FIA around the turn of the century. Schumacher himself rarely did any wrong just like Vettel today.

As for his current ability, well I think his racecraft is among the very best in F1 as has been demonstrated by his brilliant starts and general race pace this season. Nico, while very good in qualifying, has been lacking in a lot of cases against Michael, and so it is very difficult to judge them. After all, they are only a few points apart, so proclamations of superiority from either side may be null and void :)

[ArrowsFA1]

Schumacher himself rarely did any wrong just like Vettel today.
I'm not Vettel's biggest fan but he has not shown any evidence of having the worst traits we saw with Michael in pressure situations such as Macau, Adelaide or Jerez, or anything like the stunt we saw Senna pull at Suzuka so I wouldn't put them in the same bracket in that sense.

As for Michael today, he's certainly not the driver he was. That doesn't detract from his past achievements, and he has improved since his return, but he is not the future for Mercedes.

[i_max2k2]

Well said mate. I've been his biggest fan and also a detractor of his over the years, but in hindsight it was more to do with the pro-Ferrari attitude of the FIA around the turn of the century. Schumacher himself rarely did any wrong just like Vettel today.

As for his current ability, well I think his racecraft is among the very best in F1 as has been demonstrated by his brilliant starts and general race pace this season. Nico, while very good in qualifying, has been lacking in a lot of cases against Michael, and so it is very difficult to judge them. After all, they are only a few points apart, so proclamations of superiority from either side may be null and void :)

This sums it up pretty well. I would love to see a faster Mercedes, and how he does, for me, I'd love to see him on a year or two and have him a good car. He can still do things what we were hoping to see. Canada & Monza were great examples/answers of what if we had the same talent we have now, against what he raced with while winning those championships.

[i_max2k2]

I'm not Vettel's biggest fan but he has not shown any evidence of having the worst traits we saw with Michael in pressure situations such as Macau, Adelaide or Jerez, or anything like the stunt we saw Senna pull at Suzuka so I wouldn't put them in the same bracket in that sense.

As for Michael today, he's certainly not the driver he was. That doesn't detract from his past achievements, and he has improved since his return, but he is not the future for Mercedes.

How about Japan? If button was as hard headed as Hamilton or webber, we would have seen what we saw in Hungry '10. Lets not talk of F1 drivers as saints, they all do what they are wired to do in the heat of the moment.

[ioan]

I'm not Vettel's biggest fan but he has not shown any evidence of having the worst traits we saw with Michael in pressure situations such as Macau, Adelaide or Jerez, or anything like the stunt we saw Senna pull at Suzuka so I wouldn't put them in the same bracket in that sense.

I think he made it clear that he was talking about MS around the turn of the century.

As for the rest, we are yet to have MS proved having done something wrong in Macau and Adelaide. He did though admit it for the 97 Jerez clash. Then again I don't see you blaming Senna and Prost for the same things, I wonder why.

[ArrowsFA1]

ioan, did you read the words of mine you quoted, or do you just see what you want to see?

[F1boat]

Your last sentence is interesting. Have you yourself ever formed a negative opinion on a racing driver based on something they have done? I'm pretty sure I have seen you make comments about drivers where you have said you have lost respect for them based on something they have done. We are all guilty of that to a degree and yes its biased, but would you consider that negative?

I am not sure. The driver who I don't support in modern F1 is Lewis, but when he does well, I congratulate him and I would never deny his huge natural talent and obvious love for the sport. I am guilty about Vettel, because I wrote tons of rubbish about him in 2009 and 2010 - that's because I was supporting Brawn and Ferrari and he was a menace. He won my admiration this year however, has been brilliant, awesome, great.
Historically, I do not like Jacques Villeneuve, but in his prime he was fast, dangerous and smart. I simply preferred Damon, though.

[F1boat]

Yes. Bias blinds. But it is only natural to have it, to support one guy and not the other and sometimes to sincerely believe that the driver who you do support is better.

[ioan]

ioan, did you read the words of mine you quoted, or do you just see what you want to see?

My bad, sorry.

[wedge]

I'm not Vettel's biggest fan but he has not shown any evidence of having the worst traits we saw with Michael in pressure situations such as Macau, Adelaide or Jerez, or anything like the stunt we saw Senna pull at Suzuka so I wouldn't put them in the same bracket in that sense.

As for Michael today, he's certainly not the driver he was. That doesn't detract from his past achievements, and he has improved since his return, but he is not the future for Mercedes.

Can't help thinking there's something unpleasant waiting to be unleashed when Vettel is on the backfoot.

There were signs in 2010 when the competition was closer: China he tried to intimidate Hamilton on pit road after a pit stop, of all places; Turkey blamed was erred to Vettel with his crash with Webber.

Time will tell how Vettel reacts when the going gets tough.

[Knock-on]

Good points Wedge. He has shown a leaning to ruthlessness when pushed such as when he eased Button on to the grass. However, he hasn't shown the sort of actions Schumacher has in the past so perhaps we should treat him on what he has done rather than what he might do.

[Big Ben]

An idiot throws a stone in the lake and 10 intellectuals can't get it out... there's some saying that goes like that... and it would be a good motto for this thread. It looks like GW farted and left the room.

[i_max2k2]

An idiot throws a stone in the lake and 10 intellectuals can't get it out... there's some saying that goes like that... and it would be a good motto for this thread. It looks like GW farted and left the room.

I like that your still there to smell it.

[Big Ben]

I like that your still there to smell it.

Still? Are you implying that I've read the first 3 pages of the thread?

[CaptainRaiden]

An idiot throws a stone in the lake and 10 intellectuals can't get it out... there's some saying that goes like that... and it would be a good motto for this thread. It looks like GW farted and left the room.

I think his "tool" research is keeping him busy. I fully expect him to be back soon enough though. :)

[CaptainRaiden]

I like that your still there to smell it.

Garry?

[Garry Walker]

The fact remains that Nico is still ahead of Schumacher in the points table, just like he was last year. Wasn't it you who naively claimed at MS' return that he will beat Nico Rosberg in his return year? LOL. Thoroughly outclassed. Barbie just has to sort out his racecraft, and he'll put MS in his place back again. Or his race pace this year could also be affected by Pirellis, just as Lewis has been quite sub-par compared to Button during races, and how Webber has struggled against Seb as well.
Schumacher's obvious problem is his qualy pace, but his racepace is very fine and he is generally quicker than Rosberg. But he obviously needs to pick up his pace in qualifying.



Given that he had extra DNFs and incidents, and the difference in the points table wasn't huge at year end, I'd say it was just a one-off for Mika. DC was thoroughly outclassed the following three years, and that too without a lap-dog contract.
No lap dog? Remind me how many wins did DC have to give up for Mika?
DC also later has commented on how Ron behaved towards him and how he was towards Mika. People bitch how Ferrari was Schumacher's team, well, McLaren was just as much Mika's team.



Yeah, the 1998 Ferrari was an absolute piece of horse poo. But Magic Schumacher almost won the championship in it. Meanwhile, another all-time great, Eddie Irvine, troubled the explosive DC for 3rd place in the driver's table with the same horse poo 1998 Ferrari. How lucky Ferrari really were to have such amazing two drivers! The Ferrari was the 2nd best car of the year, but it was not as quick as the McLaren. You have yet to answer me, do you think Ferrari was quick as McLaren in 1998?




No, but they brought the most significant upgrades right towards the end when it mattered the most, just when Mclaren were catching up. Besides, you forgot to comment on the fact that Bridgestone also started bringing tyre compounds to races in 2000, which suited Ferrari, which pissed off many teams, and hence the majority jumped when Michelin entered the sport.So Ferrari concentrated on the end of season, while McLaren had brought their developments already earlier?
I remember Newey claiming that the tyre compounds that were brought to Monza were suiting McLaren just fine and he had no problems with Bridgestone.
Of course the reality is that in the last 3 races of 2000, McLaren was the quicker car in all of them and that was the case for pretty much every race of that year.




Exhibit A: The most biased a fan can ever be. What was Damon supposed to do behind the limping Benetton? Stay in the tow and ruin his own race? Damon's front left was right alongside Schumacher's sidepod, and he still turned into him. What, his mirrors suddenly stopped working or his brain stopped processing because of the shunt before? He was supposed to think and not put his car in a place where there never was any room to begin with. He should have just slowed down a little and tried to get as good exit as possible for the following straight. He went for a move that had 0% chance of working.



Maldonado the GP2 champion, same as Nico Rosberg, the GP2 champion. The difference is one is making a once lap-dog look rather impressive, and the other is making the "greatest" look rather ordinary. :laugh: The difference in Rubens and Michael's age is only 3 years, but I guess Michael is already too old for Formula 1. LMAO. LOL.Who did Maldonado win his title against, how many years did he spend in GP2 before winning it?




Link from a proper and credible source?Schumacher has 'motion sickness' (http://motorsportlegends.maxforum.org/2011/01/24/schumacher-has-motion-sickness/)
Anthony Davidson also said it on TV last year.



Can't be too bad. He did very well compared to Vettel at ROC last year, didn't he, going against regular drivers. Oh, but when it comes to F1, he is too old. :rolleyes: Do you think Mercedes would still be risking it with a senile has-been just for sponsorship money? I'm pretty sure he passed all the prerequisites and only then made the comeback and thought he could do well. Stop with the excuses. This is the first time he's been on equal footing with a teammate since his Ferrari days, and is being shown the way.Oh yeah, ROC is the same as F1 LOL.




Kimi Raikkonen. Oh, I don't know, Pastor Maldonado. :p 2010 GP2 champion. Daniel Ricciardo, Paul Di Resta, Kamui Kobayashi. All would make much better use of that seat than MS, and make more sense for the future for Mercedes.LOL
The only one from that bunch who is a serious prospect is Di Resta, the other three are nobodies.
I will not comment on Kimi, except I hope he will be back in F1 and it is a loss for F1 that he left for 2 years.




Yet we have some Schumacher fans (not you) claiming not so long ago that he has a mechanical engineer degree and that he sets up and tweaks the car himself. OMG. Please do not bring up those retards, they are a disgrace and they should be removed from gene pool. No sane fan of any driver will ever claim that.

He is a fully qualified mechanic, though, but obviously F1 cars are a bit more complicated than your average Fiesta.



I'm not gonna go Google every start from those years. I have something called "work" to do, you know? IIRC he had some weirdly good starts and amazing traction out of corners, which Senna noticed when following him, and it made his doubts even clearer when he saw his starts. Of course, I do not recall every single race start from 15 years ago, but that doesn't change the fact that that jump from 3rd to 1st wasn't a bit too much. If you remember correctly? Well, bring examples then. Jens already has said that he doesn't remember those super starts you talk about. MS had plenty of bad starts that year and if they had had LC, that wouldn't have happened.




Did they have to change the bargeboards? Yes.Did they?




F1 News - Grandprix.com > GP Encyclopedia > People > Tad Czapski (http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/cref-czatad.html)

BBC - 606 - - A84553077 - Schumacher's Benetton B194 Had LTC Software (http://news.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A84553077)


What is the point of those links? The 2nd link contains wrong information btw.



Of course none of these prove a 100% that Benetton were cheating, but the facts are there for everyone to see. They found the hidden option 13 to activate launch control. Why didn't Benetton hand over their access codes to the FIA when Ferrari did? Even Ross Brawn admitted in later interviews of the car having the mysterious option 13. Not only this, Benetton were again to the stewards for an illegal fuel hose and later, ride height.So now you are not claiming Benetton had TC anymore? Good, that is where we wanted to reach.




Illegally overtaking Damon on the parade lap and then ignoring the black flag, and weirdly worn out plank underneath his car suggesting illegal ground effect producing more downforce, was it?
Yes and no.




Yes, because all disqualifications and cheating allegations are born out of thin air and have no technical data supporting them, and FIA are just a bunch of muppets. My barber can do a better job. Why did Ferrari change their bargeboards then?Did they? In anycase, 5 independent judges ruled in favour of Ferrari. Case closed. A simple misunderstanding, something that has happened in F1 many a time.




Yeah, Bridgestone and Ferrari knew every technical detail for two years, but didn't bother with it until the Michelin teams became competitive and started beating them. Why wasn't this brought to the FIA's attention sooner? Or were they sleeping?Maybe they didnt know. But even if they did, you do realize it is up to them when to bring such cases up?
Of course you will also agree that Michelin were cheating.




Only this year. Last year he was thoroughly bludgeoning the "greatest ever" (LMAO) in qualifying and races. Only recently his race pace is suffering, but he's still owning Schumacher in qualifying, 12-2, and is still ahead in the points table. Who would have thought, a GP2 champion, nobody in F1, easily beating Schumacher. This is the greatest hero stories of our time. They should write a book about it. Oh wait, or maybe Schumacher wasn't this great all along?LOL




Nobody said anything about darts. Ever heard of UFC, or just MMA in general? Up until a few months ago, Randy Couture, at the age of 48, was mixing it up with guys 20 years his junior. Agreed that he sucked, but he wasn't that great ever anyway, has 10 losses in his career, but he did beat much younger guys. There are other fighters around the same age level that are still doing well in other organizations. At the highest level of MMA, fighters have to train their necks the same was as F1 pilots do, to withstand impact from punches, kicks and knees. The rest of their body is undoubtedly stronger than an F1 driver's. Schumacher's age is just becoming a lousy excuse by his fans who can't seem to digest the fact that 5 of his 7 championships were won in the best car in the field. He was in the right car at the right time, that's it.
F1 and MMA are very different sports, even someone like you will know that. Due to that no comparison can be made. For example, how much did MMA technology and rules change in the last 5 years?

[Garry Walker]

Teaching him how to block like a bitch? The "one move" rule was put into place because of MS' actions. He could have caused a serious accident by moving right in Hamilton's path at those speeds.
Well, tough luck. F1 is not about drinking tea together, but fighting hard.



As for TC in 1994, having only launch control doesn't mean they didn't have TC. Teams found innovative ways to use LC as TC, even by engaging the pit limiter in corners, so it wouldn't surprise me if Senna was right about the Benetton having TC.
LOL. Too dumb to comment on.



While we don't agree on much, I will say that the current rules are making wheel-to-wheel racing almost impossible, and that is hurting pure racers like Lewis the most.
Yes, he has been punished for complete nonsense this year and he is not the only driver to have suffered. In addition to that, they have made overtaking a joke and too easy with DRS, which will hurt those drivers who actually know how to overtake (like LH)


Give it a few more years and we could have another thread, 'Schumi's wonderful carer'.
Wow, dunnell actually made me laugh. That's a first.


From my recollection there was nothing extraordinary with Schumacher's starts in 1994-95. If you want to play that card, I guess Häkkinen's starts in McLaren were more illegal - from 4th to 1st at Hockenheim 2000. Or Alonso - from 4th to 1st in Spain and Italy in 2011, oh my god!
Thank you.



I never said there's anything wrong with it. :) Actually good for him! It's his fans who go on like he's some sort of demigod, and also said at one time that he could win in a Minardi. Of course, all their misconceptions came crashing down after the season Ferrari had in 2005 because of the tyres, and the last two seasons he's had with Mercedes.
Again, don't put all fans of certain drivers in one bracket. Those claiming he could win in a minardi were the same people who were later in the running for Darwin's award.



An idiot throws a stone in the lake and 10 intellectuals can't get it out... there's some saying that goes like that... and it would be a good motto for this thread. It looks like GW farted and left the room.
Oh goody, another mental slave of mine has appeared.

[Knock-on]

:s nore: Hi Garry :s nore:

[CaptainRaiden]

Oh boy, here we go again. I know this is such a huge waste of time, but yet I keep biting. Oh well, male ego I suppose. :p


Schumacher's obvious problem is his qualy pace, but his racepace is very fine and he is generally quicker than Rosberg. But he obviously needs to pick up his pace in qualifying.

Well, he didn't show much race pace at Abu Dhabi, did he? Finishing almost half a minute behind Rosberg.


No lap dog? Remind me how many wins did DC have to give up for Mika?
DC also later has commented on how Ron behaved towards him and how he was towards Mika. People bitch how Ferrari was Schumacher's team, well, McLaren was just as much Mika's team.

How many wins did DC give up? And yeah, the poor tormented soul at Mclaren, I guess that's why DC stuck around in Mclaren until 2004, until they replaced him with Montoya. I suppose once Kimi came to Mclaren, it became Kimi's team. At least Rubens had the balls to leave Ferrari.


The Ferrari was the 2nd best car of the year, but it was not as quick as the McLaren. You have yet to answer me, do you think Ferrari was quick as McLaren in 1998?

That Ferrari was not a bad car by any means. Hell, it even made Irvine look good.


So Ferrari concentrated on the end of season, while McLaren had brought their developments already earlier?
I remember Newey claiming that the tyre compounds that were brought to Monza were suiting McLaren just fine and he had no problems with Bridgestone.
Of course the reality is that in the last 3 races of 2000, McLaren was the quicker car in all of them and that was the case for pretty much every race of that year.

Of course. Schumacher just bum rushed that Ferrari way above where it was supposed to be, and also setup the car in the night using his expert engineering degree.


He was supposed to think and not put his car in a place where there never was any room to begin with. He should have just slowed down a little and tried to get as good exit as possible for the following straight. He went for a move that had 0% chance of working.

And I suppose it was perfectly okay for Schumacher to still turn in when the Williams was almost alongside him.


LOL.Who did Maldonado win his title against, how many years did he spend in GP2 before winning it?

Regardless of the competition, he's a former GP2 champion. And I guess Nico beat all time legends like Heikki and Scott Speed on the way to his title. LMAO! Applying the same logic to F1, who did Schumacher win 4 of his titles against? DC, Rubens, Montoya and his kid brother Ralf? LOL! Makes Vettel look like 10 times the champion Schumacher ever was.


Schumacher has 'motion sickness' (http://motorsportlegends.maxforum.org/2011/01/24/schumacher-has-motion-sickness/)
Anthony Davidson also said it on TV last year.

Oh yeah, a forum link and somebody's opinion is such a credible source. LOL!


If you remember correctly? Well, bring examples then. Jens already has said that he doesn't remember those super starts you talk about. MS had plenty of bad starts that year and if they had had LC, that wouldn't have happened.

From what I recall, he had surprisingly good starts as well. The allegations weren't thrown out of thin air. If you wanna be sure, go and research every start from his qualifying grid slot during 1994 and 1995, if you have that much time! :crazy:


Did they?

Yes they did. Days that Shook the F1 World - Ferrari Bargeboard Scandal // All for F1, and F1 for All (http://sidepodcast.com/post/days-that-shook-the-f1-world-ferrari-bargeboard-scandal)


What is the point of those links? The 2nd link contains wrong information btw.

Yeah, as long as it doesn't agree with what your belief is, it's obviously wrong. It's more credible than a forum link though.


So now you are not claiming Benetton had TC anymore? Good, that is where we wanted to reach.

Never said that. Engine electronics can be mapped in a way where LC can be used as TC as well. Many teams in the late 90s were suspected to manipulate pitlane speed limiters to use as TC as well. Read up on it.


Maybe they didnt know. But even if they did, you do realize it is up to them when to bring such cases up?
Of course you will also agree that Michelin were cheating.

Were the FIA sleeping all that time? They didn't check tyre width or how they change during races in three years, after how many, like almost 40+ races?!? But only when Ferrari protested, Michelin were banned? WTF?


F1 and MMA are very different sports, even someone like you will know that. Due to that no comparison can be made. For example, how much did MMA technology and rules change in the last 5 years?

If you learn more about MMA, you'll see that MMA athletes are better athletes than F1 drivers and have to work much harder and lead a more disciplined life. The necks withstand almost the same amount of punishment from punches, slams etc. They have to build up abs not for show, but to withstand liver punches, develop back muscles to withstand slams. MMA rules haven't changed much, but regarding MS and F1, a lot of people said these rules will suit him, since he drove cars with slick tyres and no TC for most of his career.

[CaptainRaiden]

Well, tough luck. F1 is not about drinking tea together, but fighting hard.

It's also about respecting your opponent and not blocking him/her like a bitch where you might cause an accident and endanger both of their lives. But hey, he has shown in the past he's as ruthless as they come, even almost pushing his kid brother into the wall. People may like that about him, I don't.


LOL. Too dumb to comment on.

Read up on it before spewing the usual garbage. I saw a short documentary on it way back, in 2001 IIRC. That showed that during the late 90s the FIA suspected that a lot of teams were manipulating pitlane speed limiters and using them to give traction out of corners. All of them were doing it, and since the FIA couldn't police it, they allowed TC back on F1 cars in 2001?

FIA brings back traction control systems - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/2994359/FIA-brings-back-traction-control-systems.html)


Yes, he has been punished for complete nonsense this year and he is not the only driver to have suffered. In addition to that, they have made overtaking a joke and too easy with DRS, which will hurt those drivers who actually know how to overtake (like LH).

His past few performances have led me to believe that he's finally getting to grips with these tyres, and next year he could take the fight to Vettel if Mclaren produce a decent enough car.

[jens]

I'm not going to reply everything in this messy thread, but some aspects...



How many wins did DC give up? And yeah, the poor tormented soul at Mclaren, I guess that's why DC stuck around in Mclaren until 2004, until they replaced him with Montoya. I suppose once Kimi came to Mclaren, it became Kimi's team. At least Rubens had the balls to leave Ferrari.

DC gave up the wins of Jerez'97, Melbourne'98. Perhaps also Hockenheim'98. I remember Häkkinen had an oil leak late in the race, but DC didn't try to overtake him. I think DC was also ordered to stay behind Räikkönen in Japan'03 all race and finished right behind him. This one didn't cost him a win though.

Yes, DC stuck around in McLaren for long, but so did Barrichello in Ferrari, signing multiple contract extensions in the process. Nobody likes to get beaten by their team-mate, but the reason both drivers stayed on for so long, was mainly because they didn't have good alternative options (a highly competitive team to go to). When Barrichello left Ferrari, they were having a poor season and BAR-Honda was at least promising, so it didn't seem much of a downfall. I'm not going to talk about, which team is/was more of a one-man team than the other, just mentioning that rarely are things black-and-whitish (someone is "good", other is "bad" - in this case about team politics).


That Ferrari was not a bad car by any means. Hell, it even made Irvine look good.

I think the point about 1998 isn't that Ferrari was a "bad car", just that it wasn't quite a match to McLaren. I mean a clear second best car can never be called exactly a "bad" one.


If you learn more about MMA, you'll see that MMA athletes are better athletes than F1 drivers and have to work much harder and lead a more disciplined life.

How can you be so sure about that? I thought F1 drivers are very much hard-working and living a disciplined life.

[CaptainRaiden]

DC gave up the wins of Jerez'97, Melbourne'98. Perhaps also Hockenheim'98. I remember Häkkinen had an oil leak late in the race, but DC didn't try to overtake him. I think DC was also ordered to stay behind Räikkönen in Japan'03 all race and finished right behind him. This one didn't cost him a win though.

Jerez 97, Hakkinen was the faster car, and DC didn't make it easy for him, but eventually let him go. It was the last race of the season, and they weren't disadvantaging DC, but simply wanting their two cars to finish. Teams have always asked their drivers to hold position to avoid collisions. This was also much less slimy than Hill asking Jordan to tell Ralf not to overtake. Melbourne 98 was an agreement between DC and Hakkinen, because their cars were so dominant, that whoever was first into the first corner, will be the victor. Hockenheim 98 IIRC, Mika was short fueled and so was cruising, and it was much later in the season when Mika was much ahead in points compared to DC, and fighting for the WDC against Michael.

None of these can be compared to Austria 2002 or Rubens' whole stint at Ferrari, where he had to pretty much act as a wingman/lapdog and was never allowed to challenge MS. Au contraire, DC and Mika were allowed to fight on-track and had many close moments and coming togethers. Remember Austria 1999 when DC took Mika out? Was Rubens ever allowed to race MS this close? The answer is no.


How can you be so sure about that? I thought F1 drivers are very much hard-working and living a disciplined life.

To answer that question, you'd have to learn and read up a lot about MMA, even watch a documentary about it. I never said F1 drivers weren't hard working. They're some of the best athletes on the planet, but they don't have to work at each aspect of their body as an MMA athlete has to, because of the aspects that affect them during a fight. Yes, F1 drivers have to be ultra fit, but they don't have to turn their body into a weapon.

[i_max2k2]

To answer that question, you'd have to learn and read up a lot about MMA, even watch a documentary about it. I never said F1 drivers weren't hard working. They're some of the best athletes on the planet, but they don't have to work at each aspect of their body as an MMA athlete has to, because of the aspects that affect them during a fight. Yes, F1 drivers have to be ultra fit, but they don't have to turn their body into a weapon.

Captain Raiden can you bring about comparisons between F1 drivers and Chess players tomo? or how about some comparisons with swimmers?

As ridiculous as it gets, we cant compare drivers from different motorsports because of the difference in machinery and your comparing something completely different. I understand your pure bs bias, but atleast try to make sense.

[CaptainRaiden]

Captain Raiden can you bring about comparisons between F1 drivers and Chess players tomo? or how about some comparisons with swimmers?

As ridiculous as it gets, we cant compare drivers from different motorsports because of the difference in machinery and your comparing something completely different. I understand your pure bs bias, but atleast try to make sense.

What does chess have to do with F1 and MMA? Did you even read anything that I wrote? Do you understand the distinction that what we're comparing is not the sport but athletes, athletic endurance and reflexes? Go back and read what I wrote. Damon Hill won his 1996 championship at age 36, and was quite competitive until his retirement. Prost won his WDC at age 39. Barrichello gave Button a run for his money mid-season in 2009. Nigel Mansell won his F1 championship at age 39 and Indycar WDC at age 40. Schumacher is only two years older, and suddenly he's too old?

People who have been athletes all their life don't start to see a major drop in performance, endurance and stamina until in their late 40s, for ex. 48, 49. This I know for a fact. There have been many athletes who have done good even up to the ages of 46 in sports which require strong athletic performance. The only factor different in F1 is g-forces, but those didn't seem to affect an athlete as unfit as Mansell at 40, did it?

I know Schumi fanboys have a very convenient excuse whenever he's not doing good. Oh he's too old for F1. But when he does good, like how they like to bring up Canada this year, it's the Schumi of old, and now it's a superhuman effort that he's starting to match Barbie. But then he finished half a minute behind Barbie at Abu Dhabi. Truth is Nico Rosberg is just a better driver, period. The ship has sailed for MS and he's just wasting a good seat.

[The Black Knight]

What does chess have to do with F1 and MMA? Did you even read anything that I wrote? Do you understand the distinction that what we're comparing is not the sport but athletes, athletic endurance and reflexes? Go back and read what I wrote. Damon Hill won his 1996 championship at age 36, and was quite competitive until his retirement. Prost won his WDC at age 39. Barrichello gave Button a run for his money mid-season in 2009. Nigel Mansell won his F1 championship at age 39 and Indycar WDC at age 40. Schumacher is only two years older, and suddenly he's too old?

People who have been athletes all their life don't start to see a major drop in performance, endurance and stamina until in their late 40s, for ex. 48, 49. This I know for a fact. There have been many athletes who have done good even up to the ages of 46 in sports which require strong athletic performance. The only factor different in F1 is g-forces, but those didn't seem to affect an athlete as unfit as Mansell at 40, did it?

I know Schumi fanboys have a very convenient excuse whenever he's not doing good. Oh he's too old for F1. But when he does good, like how they like to bring up Canada this year, it's the Schumi of old, and now it's a superhuman effort that he's starting to match Barbie. But then he finished half a minute behind Barbie at Abu Dhabi. Truth is Nico Rosberg is just a better driver, period. The ship has sailed for MS and he's just wasting a good seat.

You're conveniently ignoring that Schumacher went for 3 years of retirement. During these years his training laxed, he put on weight, somewhere in the order of 9Kg if memory serves me, and he did not race much except for the odd bit of karting here and there. Whether you want to believe it or not, 42 years old is well past a persons prime. Reaction time slows down, eyesight may not be as good e.g. Schumi had perfect vision most of his career but had to get his eyesight tested as it's not as good as before. There are a lot of small differences which, while travelling at 200mph, will have a big impact. Just because a fat Mansell was able to drive at 40 years of age doesn't mean he was as good as he was at 30, nor does it mean the same should apply to Schumi. All these comparisons between MMA and different drivers of another era are total rubbish.

Schumacher hasn't been the same driver since his retirement, that much is obvious. This year there have been one or two performances where he took it to the next level, he just hasn't been able to maintain it. Qualifying is his main deficit to Rosberg. I'll be the first to admit I am disappointed with his performances since his comeback on the whole, he hasn't done well. Yes, Nico is the better driver now overall. I don't know how much of the gap in Abu Dhabi can be attributed to by Schumacher's car issues but either way he got his ass handed to him just like Nico got his ass handed to him in Canada and in Spa.

The ship may have sailed and he may not be as good as he used to be, but he is still amongst the top ten drivers in the world. That isn't bad at all for a guy of 42 that took 3 years retirement.

[CaptainRaiden]

You're conveniently ignoring that Schumacher went for 3 years of retirement. During these years his training laxed, he put on weight, somewhere in the order of 9Kg if memory serves me, and he did not race much except for the odd bit of karting here and there.

Nope, that is a bit wrong. He drove the F2007, and then tested Ferrari's 2008 car extensively, putting in IIRC hundreds of laps. He also was riding a Ducati in the German superbike championship, where he injured his neck. And I might be completely wrong here, but he also drove a DTM car. 9 kilos is like chump change to lose for especially great athletes like Schumacher. :p


Whether you want to believe it or not, 42 years old is well past a persons prime. Reaction time slows down, eyesight may not be as good e.g. Schumi had perfect vision most of his career but had to get his eyesight tested as it's not as good as before. There are a lot of small differences which, while travelling at 200mph, will have a big impact. Just because a fat Mansell was able to drive at 40 years of age doesn't mean he was as good as he was at 30, nor does it mean the same should apply to Schumi.

While I agree that an athlete's prime period is in his 30s, they're not completely useless in their early 40s either.


All these comparisons between MMA and different drivers of another era are total rubbish.

I'm repeating myself again, the comparison is about athletic performance. But you can go ahead and call it rubbish as long as it doesn't agree with your opinion. The fact of the matter is that Mercedes would have done a complete health and fitness check before allowing MS to race again. They don't want an old has-been finishing 24th now, do they? So, MS was obviously good enough when he came back.


Schumacher hasn't been the same driver since his retirement, that much is obvious.

How do we know that? How is that obvious? Are you assuming the Mercedes is the same car as the Ferrari in 2006? There is no way to compare this. Cold hard truth is that Nico is beating him, albeit not as convincingly as in 2010.


This year there have been one or two performances where he took it to the next level, he just hasn't been able to maintain it. Qualifying is his main deficit to Rosberg. I'll be the first to admit I am disappointed with his performances since his comeback on the whole, he hasn't done well. Yes, Nico is the better driver now overall. I don't know how much of the gap in Abu Dhabi can be attributed to by Schumacher's car issues but either way he got his ass handed to him just like Nico got his ass handed to him in Canada and in Spa.

The "ass handing" has been mutual, :p and spread out over two years, Nico has handed the aforementioned posterior more times to MS. But again, there is this contradiction of when he's doing well, he's bringing it to the "next level" or doing a superhuman effort, and when he's doing bad, it's his age. Why can't we agree that Nico in equal machinery and no team orders is proving to be a handful for Michael, and he's struggling to match him, but he has started to match him lately with some sporadic good performances, which is him being comfortable with the car at certain tracks and not some "next level" or superhuman effort. Time away from F1 is a better excuse than age IMO.


The ship may have sailed and he may not be as good as he used to be, but he is still amongst the top ten drivers in the world. That isn't bad at all for a guy of 42 that took 3 years retirement.

For the sake of ending this argument, I'll half-heartedly agree with that. :p

[555-04Q2]

While I agree that an athlete's prime period is in his 30s, they're not completely useless in their early 40s either.

Wrong old Captain! The average males prime years are 18 - 35. After that you start losing physical strength, stamina, reactions, eyesight, hearing etc. Besides the likes of golfers and bowls players, why do you think most professional sportmen retire at around 35? This has been scientifically proven by numerous sports doctors and specialsts.

[The Black Knight]

Nope, that is a bit wrong. He drove the F2007, and then tested Ferrari's 2008 car extensively, putting in IIRC hundreds of laps. He also was riding a Ducati in the German superbike championship, where he injured his neck. And I might be completely wrong here, but he also drove a DTM car. 9 kilos is like chump change to lose for especially great athletes like Schumacher. :p


The testing your mentioning here is sporadic at best. If I remember he did a weeks testing in the F2008 but that was it. He only did one days testing of the F2007 where he finished top of the session with a time 6 tenth of a second quicker than anyone else. That was his first time driving in a year. DC was at that test with RBR and he was more than slightly impressed.


I'm repeating myself again, the comparison is about athletic performance. But you can go ahead and call it rubbish as long as it doesn't agree with your opinion. The fact of the matter is that Mercedes would have done a complete health and fitness check before allowing MS to race again. They don't want an old has-been finishing 24th now, do they? So, MS was obviously good enough when he came back.

Of course yes, there would have been a complete health and fitness check and he passed it but he would have always passed these with ease.


How do we know that? How is that obvious? Are you assuming the Mercedes is the same car as the Ferrari in 2006? There is no way to compare this. Cold hard truth is that Nico is beating him, albeit not as convincingly as in 2010.

I agree with that. But drivers improve and disimprove over time. As I say, my opinion is that the real crux of the argument is that he took 3 years off. I don't believe his fitness to be as big of an issue as some make it out to be but it certainly would play a small part in terms of reaction time.


The "ass handing" has been mutual, :p and spread out over two years, Nico has handed the aforementioned posterior more times to MS. But again, there is this contradiction of when he's doing well, he's bringing it to the "next level" or doing a superhuman effort, and when he's doing bad, it's his age. Why can't we agree that Nico in equal machinery and no team orders is proving to be a handful for Michael, and he's struggling to match him, but he has started to match him lately with some sporadic good performances, which is him being comfortable with the car at certain tracks and not some "next level" or superhuman effort. Time away from F1 is a better excuse than age IMO.



For the sake of ending this argument, I'll half-heartedly agree with that. :p

Well, clearly when he is doing well and thrashing his teammate Rosberg then he has taken it to another level, if he hadn't then he wouldn't be beating him, but the issue appears that he can't do that consistently. I don't see what your issue is with people pointing this out? We could argue about this ad nauseum, but there is no way of knowing if Schumacher really would be beating Nico were they teammates in his prime. We can only guess that he would be considering he thrashed all his other teammates. I would also say that "him being comfortable with the car" is all part of him bringing it to the next level. There is nothing superhuman about this, it's just that sometimes it is working out and others it isn't. There is a clear trend of improvement throughout this year. Whether he can ever beat Nico remains to be seen however.

Overall though, I am very impressed with the Schu Meister and his will to improve. It has been disappointing that he hasn't beaten Nico regularly, or hardly at all, but in general, I think this year is a big improvement on last and if he can keep that trend going, he may very well be level with him next year. To be honest, I think there are very few former F1 drivers that could be doing what he is doing at the age of 42.

[CaptainRaiden]

Wrong old Captain! The average males prime years are 18 - 35. After that you start losing physical strength, stamina, reactions, eyesight, hearing etc. Besides the likes of golfers and bowls players, why do you think most professional sportmen retire at around 35? This has been scientifically proven by numerous sports doctors and specialsts.

Well, that's debatable. Usain Bolt is breaking world records at his age of 25, but I remember Michael Johnson saying in some interview that he's yet to reach his athletic prime, and that's the scary part. From as long as I've been following MMA, coaches, doctors, nutritionists and fighters themselves have said they reach their athletic peak somewhere after 26 and it starts to decline after 36. The best MMA fighter in the world right now is 36, and Mansell won his last world title at 40, so as long as the skill is there, it works, even though they might lack in the stamina department.

If people say that MS is way past his prime at 42, and his time away from F1 is a huge factor, then every time he's outqualifying or outracing Nico, he's doing something superhuman, way beyond his capability or what his body can do, and something which goes beyond science and everything that makes sense. Do you guys actually believe that?

[CaptainRaiden]

If people say that MS is way past his prime at 42, and his time away from F1 is a huge factor, then every time he's outqualifying or outracing Nico, he's doing something superhuman, way beyond his capability or what his body can do, and something which goes beyond science and everything that makes sense. Do you guys actually believe that?

OR that Nico Rosberg is so useless that he can't even beat an out of prime, out of practice, fat, almost blind has-been, in which case Mercedes are getting seriously shortchanged in terms of the quality of drivers they can get, isn't it? That car could be a world beater! :p

[555-04Q2]

Well, that's debatable. Usain Bolt is breaking world records at his age of 25, but I remember Michael Johnson saying in some interview that he's yet to reach his athletic prime, and that's the scary part. From as long as I've been following MMA, coaches, doctors, nutritionists and fighters themselves have said they reach their athletic peak somewhere after 26 and it starts to decline after 36. The best MMA fighter in the world right now is 36, and Mansell won his last world title at 40, so as long as the skill is there, it works, even though they might lack in the stamina department.

If people say that MS is way past his prime at 42, and his time away from F1 is a huge factor, then every time he's outqualifying or outracing Nico, he's doing something superhuman, way beyond his capability or what his body can do, and something which goes beyond science and everything that makes sense. Do you guys actually believe that?

As I said, the average male's prime is between 18 and 35. Each person is different so we all peak at different points during these years mentally, physically and sexually. Sexually, it's all down hill for us boys from about 21 onwards. Physically, we start the downward travel around 35 some earlier. Mentally, we are not able to absorb information and make decisions as quickly as we did when we are 35 compared to when we are 25 for example.

There is the occassional freak that breaks this mould, but 99% of us fit this profile. As for The Shoe outqualifying or beating Nico sometimes, even old dogs have the odd good day, and young bucks also have some bad days :)

[555-04Q2]

OR that Nico Rosberg is so useless that he can't even beat an out of prime, out of practice, fat, almost blind has-been, in which case Mercedes are getting seriously shortchanged in terms of the quality of drivers they can get, isn't it? That car could be a world beater! :p

Yeah, I also thought Nico was overrated :laugh: ;)

[jens]

While I agree that an athlete's prime period is in his 30s, they're not completely useless in their early 40s either.


Finally you got pretty close to the reality with this claim. :) Or I may add, depending on the sport, the prime can be either in 20s or (early) 30s. Indeed, depending on the sport, one may not be useless in early 40s either. Schumacher is indeed not useless, as we can see, being able to more or less match Rosberg now. But as you agreed, he is not in an athlete's prime. He is still good, but not that good.

Think about this: Schumacher may not be the best in the world right now, but I'm pretty sure he is clearly the best 40+ F1 driver and would beat other 40+ ex-drivers with relative ease. Other drivers have lost their performance even more than MS by this age. You may talk about Mansell, but after his comeback at the age of 41-42 he wasn't doing anything special any more, getting beaten by Hill and Häkkinen. Or you'd think this was his real level too and he was at his best?

[ioan]

:s nore: Hi Garry :s nore:

Your attention span seems to be slowly improving.

[CaptainRaiden]

Think about this: Schumacher may not be the best in the world right now, but I'm pretty sure he is clearly the best 40+ F1 driver and would beat other 40+ ex-drivers with relative ease. Other drivers have lost their performance even more than MS by this age. You may talk about Mansell, but after his comeback at the age of 41-42 he wasn't doing anything special any more, getting beaten by Hill and Häkkinen. Or you'd think this was his real level too and he was at his best?

But then Mansell won back-to-back WDCs at age 39 and 40, beating much younger guys, and then suddenly he was too old at 42? We all know the 1992 Williams was a class above, but were the other drivers chumps, same as in Indycar, were they all useless to be beaten by a 40 year old, clearly out of his prime, man? Until last year Barrichello was soundly beating a much younger Hulkenberg in the same car, and this year his performance has gone down a bit, but he's still outqualifying and outracing Maldonado sporadically. What, in one year his reflexes became worse and he got out of his prime? Or the reality is that Pastor is just a better driver than Nico?

I still didn't get an answer to my previous two questions.


If people say that MS is way past his prime at 42, and his time away from F1 is a huge factor, then every time he's outqualifying or outracing Nico, he's doing something superhuman, way beyond his capability or what his body can do, and something which goes beyond science and everything that makes sense. Do you guys actually believe that?


OR that Nico Rosberg is so useless that he can't even beat an out of prime, out of practice, fat, almost blind has-been, in which case Mercedes are getting seriously shortchanged in terms of the quality of drivers they can get, isn't it? That car could be a world beater!

[jens]

I think the bigger issue is that older drivers simply find it more difficult to adapt efficiently. And that's why a drop in performance at a relatively high age can appear like that - within a season, especially if rules change. Barrichello was good in 2010, but suddenly found new Pirelli tyres and DRS in qualifying harder to master than many young drivers. Even Schumacher, who was known for being excellent in adaption, has found it difficult to master several issues quickly with ease.

Also Schumacher's Canadian GP drive doesn't mean he was superhumanous, simply sportsmen at his age are more inconsistent. And find it more difficult to be competitive on a consistent basis. Mansell also qualified on pole for Australia '94, but didn't manage that feat more often.

To bring an example from another sport like you did, Mr CaptainRaiden. For example I have been following cross-country skiing a lot. And older athletes (close to 40) find it impossible to be at or close to their peak form throughout the season, so they concentrate on just a couple of events, where they aim to really shine. They can win that one specific (like a World Championship) event, but are unable to be at the front more often.

[Bagwan]

May I suggest another reason , unrelated to age , regarding the red shoe , is that he is not able to gain the edge on the rest , including team-mate , by pounding around the test track endlessly at red tracks .
Personally , I don't think he's lost much speed , but is only just starting to feel one with the car , now that he's been back for the second season .

The Merc design team now have some consistant feedback with which to build , and I expect good things .

It's not the same as when he ran for the reds .
New car .
New tires .
Almost no testing .

None of that has anything to do with age .

[Knock-on]

Or, or, or, or.......

Or maybe he's just past it?

[Ranger]

I think motivation, dedication and drive have a lot more to do with it than some people here give credit for.


But then Mansell won back-to-back WDCs at age 39 and 40, beating much younger guys, and then suddenly he was too old at 42? We all know the 1992 Williams was a class above, but were the other drivers chumps, same as in Indycar, were they all useless to be beaten by a 40 year old, clearly out of his prime, man?

In Nigel Mansell's case, ask yourself why he missed the first two races in 1995.

Hint: It wasn't because he was too old...


Think about this: Schumacher may not be the best in the world right now, but I'm pretty sure he is clearly the best 40+ F1 driver and would beat other 40+ ex-drivers with relative ease.

This I agree with.

[i_max2k2]

So much crap sometimes, I dont honestly know whats going on with Schumacher, that why he is good sometimes and less then average some times. None of us have ever seen a F1 driver retire at 38, do less then 5% of what he did for 3 yrs and come back to the sport with radical rule changes before this. People who used to drive in their 40's in F1 is a story gone by a long time ago. Fangio won championships in his 50's, doesnt mean if he was given a modern car he would come even close to anyone whos racing today, perhaps he would be at the same level as some of the drivers back then, different era's had different level of fitness in drivers. It has slowly changed with Schumacher becoming a benchmark in the 90's, drivers these days spend a lot of their time in fitness. And its no mystery as has been said we peak from 25 to 35. And also if you keep doing something you stay good at it for longer. Schumacher was probably past his best earlier this decade itself, but somehow or another he had an edge, probably a feeling of having the exact car he wanted.

Anyway comparing athlete from different sports is bs, comparing people who could do great at certain age and saying the same for or against schumi is useless. Barrichello 2 yrs younger, was handily given his arse on a place several times by schumi, he NEVER left the sport, that is the biggest difference between him and Schumi, so pls dont bring him in an argument again. I still feel 90% of schumacher is still one of the best in the field, if he gets a fast car under him we'll see. And I think Rosberg is a WDC material, but Schumi in his prime would have done the same to him what he did to others although he is probably his strongest team mate ever.

[CaptainRaiden]

I really don't buy this crap about his age and time away from F1. It's been "TWO YEARS" since he returned to Formula 1. In those two years, he has had almost 40 races + 40 qualifying sessions + 120 practice sessions + 2 winter testing sessions with hundreds of laps. How much more time does he need?!? What the hell? In contrast a fat, unmotivated, 42 year old Mansell troubled Schumacher and Hill in 1994 (albeit really rarely, but still did).

And if his age and "time away from F1" :rolleyes: are really holding him back, then what I don't understand is why a professional team like Mercedes is still persevering with him?

A: Is it just because he's German?
B: Or is it that he's bringing billions of dollars of sponsorship money to the team that no other driver can?
C: Or is it that they're such bug-eyed fanboys of schumi, with their mouths full of his nuts, that they'll tirelessly prepare a car for him each weekend, dump silly money into the development of the car, only to get sub-par performance every weekend because of him being old and his "time away from F1"? :rolleyes:
D: Or the fact that Rosberg is just a better driver and Schumacher is way past it?
E: All of the above.

I find the excuses very convenient, because whenever he's doing bad, it's his time away from F1 and his age. And when he does good, it's the Schumi of old. :crazy:

[jens]

A: Is it just because he's German?
B: Or is it that he's bringing billions of dollars of sponsorship money to the team that no other driver can?
C: Or is it that they're such bug-eyed fanboys of schumi, with their mouths full of his nuts, that they'll tirelessly prepare a car for him each weekend, dump silly money into the development of the car, only to get sub-par performance every weekend because of him being old and his "time away from F1"? :rolleyes:
D: Or the fact that Rosberg is just a better driver and Schumacher is way past it?
E: All of the above.


The attraction of Schumacher's name for marketing was certainly a factor in hiring.

Maybe we shouldn't make such a big deal of his drop in performance. We have seen throughout years, how the performances of different drivers have been fluctuating. I mean no-one would think Hamilton of 2011 is performing as well as he did even in 2010. So why should you think the Schumacher of 2011 is as good as ever and never was that good?

Regarding the age factor. There is an expression - "old dogs don't learn new tricks". Maybe it has some truth in it. And this is why Schumacher even after 2 years and hundreds of practice laps - as you say - has still been struggling to adapt. There have been some occasions/certain conditions (like wet weather in Canada), when he and the car have somehow clicked, but not always can he find such comfort zone. Particularly in qualifying.

Still I think Schumacher has been impressive, because with a lot of dedication he has managed to improve during 2011. I wasn't sure he would manage it at that age. However, I have no doubt Schumacher at the age of 25 would have been adapting better in similar circumstances.

I also think there is one obvious indication, where Schumacher's age has been showing. Very odd accidents. With Pérez at Singapore, Kobayashi at Silverstone, Petrov at Istanbul. His momentary decision-making isn't as fresh as it used to be and hence has been caught out on a few occasions. One could argue that without those moments Schumacher could well have more points than Rosberg in the championship right now. And then we could have a different discussion about who is beating who.

[ioan]

But then Mansell won back-to-back WDCs at age 39 and 40, beating much younger guys,

Must have missed when he became a double F1 WDC.

[CaptainRaiden]

Must have missed when he became a double F1 WDC.

Did I say back-to-back Formula 1 WDC?

1992 - Formula 1 WDC
1993 - Indy Car WDC

:rolleyes:

[Knock-on]

Regarding the age factor. There is an expression - "old dogs don't learn new tricks". Maybe it has some truth in it. And this is why Schumacher even after 2 years and hundreds of practice laps - as you say - has still been struggling to adapt.

You really need to ask that with the experience of Schumacher, against a much less experienced crop of drivers, just what tricks he should be learning. Surely, with 7 titles under his belt, he should be able to bring all that knowledge to bear.

Or possibly without FIAssistance, a Lapdog Team mate, a team built around him, he is passed his prime and his car doesn't benefit from dubious technological advantages, he looks pretty ordinary?

[jens]

I don't see, how any of the claimed FIA's 'assistance' was possibly helping Schumacher's driving skills? Even if FIA banned beryllium in Mercedes engine or didn't DQ 1999 Malaysia bargeboard-results, then what has this got to do with Schumi's driving? Team-mate still had the same car and managed to match Schumi's pace every now and then. You don't match pace in an inferior car. Strategies can perhaps be a valid point, as can be excessive testing. Although unlike Ferrari, Benetton didn't have its own test track, but Schumi was mighty impressive already there.

In any case, whenever I have looked at Schumacher's driving in late 90's, I could visibly see him driving the wheels off the car. I don't see similarity with 2011. Any kind of favouring factor here is a non-issue, because I'm writing, which kind of impression does his on-track driving & racing leave in either era. Let's take Alonso as an example. It is widely claimed that he is favoured at Ferrari, but this takes nothing away from his own driving. His personal performances have been absolutely fabulous this year. Same stuff with Vettel, Red Bull and "favouring".

[CaptainRaiden]

The attraction of Schumacher's name for marketing was certainly a factor in hiring.

This makes me think really how serious is Mercedes about their involvement in Formula 1.


Maybe we shouldn't make such a big deal of his drop in performance. We have seen throughout years, how the performances of different drivers have been fluctuating. I mean no-one would think Hamilton of 2011 is performing as well as he did even in 2010. So why should you think the Schumacher of 2011 is as good as ever and never was that good?

Yeah, but when Lewis, Seb or Alonso do worse compared to their teammates, people say it's because they sucked on that track or they made a mistake. However, MS' fans have a very convenient excuse for his bad performance, age and time away from F1.


Regarding the age factor. There is an expression - "old dogs don't learn new tricks". Maybe it has some truth in it. And this is why Schumacher even after 2 years and hundreds of practice laps - as you say - has still been struggling to adapt. There have been some occasions/certain conditions (like wet weather in Canada), when he and the car have somehow clicked, but not always can he find such comfort zone. Particularly in qualifying.

What's the explanation for him not "clicking" in every race? Didn't he always "click" during the Ferrari era? So, now does his age and time away from F1 only affect him in some races and not others? Why only the sporadic good performances?


Still I think Schumacher has been impressive, because with a lot of dedication he has managed to improve during 2011. I wasn't sure he would manage it at that age. However, I have no doubt Schumacher at the age of 25 would have been adapting better in similar circumstances.

That is impossible to ever compare or analyze. He never had really good teammates. They were average at best, with lapdog contracts, not allowed to fight him on track or even bother him.


I also think there is one obvious indication, where Schumacher's age has been showing. Very odd accidents. With Pérez at Singapore, Kobayashi at Silverstone, Petrov at Istanbul. His momentary decision-making isn't as fresh as it used to be and hence has been caught out on a few occasions. One could argue that without those moments Schumacher could well have more points than Rosberg in the championship right now. And then we could have a different discussion about who is beating who.

Ifs and buts. Truth is he's under pressure. Rosberg is the strongest teammate he has had to-date, and so he makes stupid mistakes driving under pressure. If he really is handicapped with his age and time away from F1, as his fans like to believe, then Mercedes should replace him ASAP with a driver that can make good use of that car, well, unless Mercedes is not serious about winning, but only running a German freak show with a has-been and a future also-ran.

[jens]

This makes me think really how serious is Mercedes about their involvement in Formula 1.

I think by hiring Schumacher Mercedes was attempting to make themselves look more serious, because at that time other options looked perhaps underwhelming for MB. They could have gone for a Rosberg-Heidfeld line-up, but perhaps Mercedes felt that two drivers without race wins (even if they were not at fault for failing to achieve that feat) and without a particularly big following would be too modest for the legendary marque.


Yeah, but when Lewis, Seb or Alonso do worse compared to their teammates, people say it's because they sucked on that track or they made a mistake. However, MS' fans have a very convenient excuse for his bad performance, age and time away from F1.

Well, if Schumi makes a mistake, it's still a mistake and you can say he sucked on track. There can be very different reasons for underperformance, I'd like to call finding causes for it reasoning, not finding (convenient) excuses. But I don't see, what has finding reasons got to do with Schumi's 2000 drives. Likewise I wouldn't see, why should Hamilton's 2011 struggle got anything to do with 2007.


What's the explanation for him not "clicking" in every race? Didn't he always "click" during the Ferrari era? So, now does his age and time away from F1 only affect him in some races and not others? Why only the sporadic good performances?

This is the difference between being a great or just a well-performing driver. You can ask many drivers, why are they inconsistent or having bad spells. Mostly related to adapting. As you mention, Schumi 'clicked' more often in Ferrari and that's what we know. He was more consistent (=better) back then.


That is impossible to ever compare or analyze. He never had really good teammates. They were average at best, with lapdog contracts, not allowed to fight him on track or even bother him.

So you don't consider it as a possibility that in the past he used to be better at adapting? Forget about team-mates, just concentrate, how Schumi himself has been performing and adapting throughout his career. Drivers always need to keep adapting regardless of the team-mate, because a Formula One car is in an endless evolution due to constant development.

Even when Schumacher was paired with Barrichello, there were periods, where the balance kept swinging in terms of who felt more comfortable in the car. For example in 2002 and 2003 Rubens was more competitive compared to Michael, outqualifying him on many occasions. On other seasons Schumacher had a more significant advantage, especially in 2000 and 2001.


Ifs and buts. Truth is he's under pressure. Rosberg is the strongest teammate he has had to-date, and so he makes stupid mistakes driving under pressure.

To be honest, Schumacher has won so much in F1 in the past that I would imagine he is the last person to feel any pressure, even less so in a fight for measly 7th places. I'd imagine Rosberg has more pressure, because he still needs to build up his career for success in long-term.



If he really is handicapped with his age and time away from F1, as his fans like to believe, then Mercedes should replace him ASAP with a driver that can make good use of that car, well, unless Mercedes is not serious about winning, but only running a German freak show with a has-been and a future also-ran.

Again Mercedes is thinking that they don't have a very good alternative option for Schumi and as the team is still in development phase, it is not particularly attractive for top drivers yet. One may mention di Resta, but perhaps MB would still like to wait and evaluate him after one more season to see his progress.

[ioan]

Did I say back-to-back Formula 1 WDC?

1992 - Formula 1 WDC
1993 - Indy Car WDC

:rolleyes:

You didn't say it and for good reason, cause an Indy WDC title is nowhere as valuable as an F1 WDC title.

[ioan]

I don't see, how any of the claimed FIA's 'assistance' was possibly helping Schumacher's driving skills?

Don't feed the troll.

[ioan]

To be honest, Schumacher has won so much in F1 in the past that I would imagine he is the last person to feel any pressure, even less so in a fight for measly 7th places. I'd imagine Rosberg has more pressure, because he still needs to build up his career for success in long-term.

Exactly.
If anything MS is proving that even though the ultimate speed is not there anymore he has still got better racing skills than Rosberg, and this is probably also the reason why Rosberg Jr. is never going to be a world beater.

[Knock-on]

Exactly.
and this is probably also the reason why Rosberg Jr. is never going to be a world beater.

Just a Schumacher beater :laugh:

[i_max2k2]

Just a Schumacher beater :laugh:

Indeed with the huge 7 point lead.

[CaptainRaiden]

You didn't say it and for good reason, cause an Indy WDC title is nowhere as valuable as an F1 WDC title.

A world champion, nonetheless. Regardless of what people think of Indy Car, he won it, unless what you're saying, ioan, is that all of his competitors in Indy Car were chumps and as useless as Rosberg? Surely Mansell won the 1992 and 1993 championships in two of the best cars, but he did win it nonetheless, and was the world champion two years in a row, BTW beating a 47 year old impressive Fittipaldi in Indy Car.

If that Mercedes was a world beater, going by the last two years Rosberg would be going for back to back championships battling his "out of prime" teammate.

[CaptainRaiden]

Indeed with the huge 7 point lead.

A lead nonetheless, which I doubt he'll be able to overcome at Brazil, unless Rosberg seriously cocks up his race. So then this will be two years in a row, the "greatest ever" would have been beaten in qualifying, race and overall points table by Barbie Alsoran.

[F1boat]

I'd rather focus on the huge progress of MS - he was miles behind Nico last year and he is much, much closer now. Although he has lost his incredible pace and ability to adapt to new cars and tracks, he remains a clever racer.

[Robinho]

regardless of his glittering career, I think MS is slightly flattered this year by the fact that the Merc is in a zone all of its own, well ahead of the other teams but plenty behind the top 3. As a result, even though Rosberg tends to be 3/4's of a second or more ahead in qually, it rarely translates to more than a place on the grid. From there MS is able to race with Rosberg directly with no cars in between. What is clear is that Michael is a match for Rosberg in most races, however if the Merc we on the same pace of some of the other teams they might have been separatedby several cars on the grid and Michael would have to clear them before being anywhere near Rosberg. Its no coincidence that earlier in the season when the cars were less spread out MS made the most places on the 1st lap than anyone else. That is partly his racecraft at the start of the races, and partly qualifying below the cars potential IMO

[F1boat]

Robinho, I think that Michael is benefiting from the easier overtakes, just like Jenson in McLaren.

[555-04Q2]

Robinho, I think that Michael is benefiting from the easier overtakes, just like Jenson in McLaren.

I have to disagree. I have seen very few Daft Racing System overtakes by The Shoe this year. He has, however, consistantly been the leading overtaker on the first lap, just as he was last year if memory serves me right.

[i_max2k2]

A lead nonetheless, which I doubt he'll be able to overcome at Brazil, unless Rosberg seriously cocks up his race. So then this will be two years in a row, the "greatest ever" would have been beaten in qualifying, race and overall points table by Barbie Alsoran.

I dint think you would pretend to be so naive with all your statics, MS had 5 dnf's vs barbie's 2. Well lets see how YOUR greatest ever Kimi does when he comes back, although I did like him when he was there, and he is stil in his early 30's. I doubt if you went in your 40's in F1 you wouldn't win it ;)

[i_max2k2]

regardless of his glittering career, I think MS is slightly flattered this year by the fact that the Merc is in a zone all of its own, well ahead of the other teams but plenty behind the top 3. As a result, even though Rosberg tends to be 3/4's of a second or more ahead in qually, it rarely translates to more than a place on the grid. From there MS is able to race with Rosberg directly with no cars in between. What is clear is that Michael is a match for Rosberg in most races, however if the Merc we on the same pace of some of the other teams they might have been separatedby several cars on the grid and Michael would have to clear them before being anywhere near Rosberg. Its no coincidence that earlier in the season when the cars were less spread out MS made the most places on the 1st lap than anyone else. That is partly his racecraft at the start of the races, and partly qualifying below the cars potential IMO

I dont think we can quantify the difference to 3/4th of a second, its probably more like between 2/10th to 3/10ths. and his race pace is usually with Rosberg and usually a little faster. I do agree with cars spread over and below, this has its advantages but more or less he really needs to worry about the quali pace. Apart from that he is more then a equal to Rosberg even now.

[CaptainRaiden]

I dint think you would pretend to be so naive with all your statics, MS had 5 dnf's vs barbie's 2. Well lets see how YOUR greatest ever Kimi does when he comes back, although I did like him when he was there, and he is stil in his early 30's. I doubt if you went in your 40's in F1 you wouldn't win it ;)

Don't wanna be a spelling Nazi, but WTF are statics? Am I electrically charging this forum or what?

Call people naive and then forget that 2 of those 5 DNFs are brain farts resulting in collisions, 2 car failures, and one Petrov failure. Compared to that, Rosberg has one racing incident and one Liuzzi failure at Monza. So now the "greatest ever" is not only slower than Barbie, but also more accident prone and inconsistent. :laugh: How many times has he tangled with other drivers and had stupid incidents in the last two years?

As for Kimi, I like him as a driver, but never said he's the greatest ever. But I'm guessing with his active WRC experience behind him, he should do better than Cheatmacher.

[555-04Q2]

Don't wanna be a spelling Nazi, but WTF are statics? Am I electrically charging this forum or what?

Call people naive and then forget that 2 of those 5 DNFs are brain farts resulting in collisions, 2 car failures, and one Petrov failure. Compared to that, Rosberg has one racing incident and one Liuzzi failure at Monza. So now the "greatest ever" is not only slower than Barbie, but also more accident prone and inconsistent. :laugh: How many times has he tangled with other drivers and had stupid incidents in the last two years?

As for Kimi, I like him as a driver, but never said he's the greatest ever. But I'm guessing with his active WRC experience behind him, he should do better than Cheatmacher.

As I have said in other threads, Nico is in the prime of his life, The Shoe is not. If some 42 year old was within a few meters of me in a 100 meter sprint race, I would be ferking embarrassed. Nico should be too, cause he should be running circles around the pensioner, but he aint!

[CaptainRaiden]

As I have said in other threads, Nico is in the prime of his life, The Shoe is not. If some 42 year old was within a few meters of me in a 100 meter sprint race, I would be ferking embarrassed. Nico should be too, cause he should be running circles around the pensioner, but he aint!

Ah yes, the age excuse comes up again whenever he's not doing well. The 1993 Indy Car field must be really amazingly crap if two "pensioners" like Mansell and Fittipaldi (47) finished first and second. Also, I'd like to know which world you're living in where a 42 year old guy is considered a pensioner. WTF?

Like I have said in other threads, if MS is doing bad, conveniently choose between age and time away from F1. If he accidentally does well in a race, then it's "ZOMG, Holy Sauerkrautilicious crap Batman! The guy is superhuman! I love schumi, goo. His chin so sexy."

:rolleyes:

[Knock-on]

Hang on a minute???

Now Nico should be disgusted with himself for 'only' beating the Shooooo.

Them goal posts 'aint just shifting, they're fading in and out of an alternative reality!!

[555-04Q2]

Ah yes, the age excuse comes up again whenever he's not doing well. The 1993 Indy Car field must be really amazingly crap if two "pensioners" like Mansell and Fittipaldi (47) finished first and second. Also, I'd like to know which world you're living in where a 42 year old guy is considered a pensioner. WTF?

Like I have said in other threads, if MS is doing bad, conveniently choose between age and time away from F1. If he accidentally does well in a race, then it's "ZOMG, Holy Sauerkrautilicious crap Batman! The guy is superhuman! I love schumi, goo. His chin so sexy."

:rolleyes:

:erm: I never said he is not doing well. He's actually doing well keeping up with a highly rated youngster like Nico.

[Dave B]

Pre-Brazil, Rosberg has out-qualified Schumacher 15-3. I wonder if this is evidence that MS is still finding it tough getting used to the tyres - something which we were assured wouldn't be a problem with the 2011 Pirellis.

[kfzmeister]

There are some nice comparisons here. Hint* (look towards the bottom. Who stands out?)

Formula 1 (http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2011/11/12816.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+jaf1%2Fformula1+%28F1.com+New s%29)

I bet next season will be even better for him!!

[Dave B]

Q: Who has been the top starter in 2011?
A: The top starter is Schumacher, who has gained a total of 34 positions...

Q: Who has gained most positions on the first lap in 2011?
A: In total terms, Schumacher...

Q: Finally, who has done the most overtaking in the races after lap one?
A: This classification is headed by Sauber’s Sergio Perez and Buemi, both with 82 overtakes. They are followed by McLaren’s Jenson Button (77), Red Bull’s Mark Webber (76), Alguersuari (74) and Schumacher (71).


I think that's more a reflection on their relatively poor qualifying positions more than anything else. At the other extreme Vettel has hardly overtaken anybody, but nor has he needed to.

[woody2goody]

Hang on a minute???

Now Nico should be disgusted with himself for 'only' beating the Shooooo.

Them goal posts 'aint just shifting, they're fading in and out of an alternative reality!!

This is the thing, it's almost impossible to figure out how well Rosberg is doing because nobody really knows where Schumacher is in terms of performance. If this is indeed the same old Schumacher as before with more experience, then Nico is a superstar. If Schumi is below-par, then obviously Nico isn't as good as we all thought, because he's not beating him by much at all.

[555-04Q2]

This is the thing, it's almost impossible to figure out how well Rosberg is doing because nobody really knows where Schumacher is in terms of performance. If this is indeed the same old Schumacher as before with more experience, then Nico is a superstar. If Schumi is below-par, then obviously Nico isn't as good as we all thought, because he's not beating him by much at all.

Good point :up: