How do you see the future of rally?

[Brother John]

The rally season is al most over, what do you think about in future? After Wales all the official news of rallies can be very different than we expect.
There are many questions that many people do not dare to talk about it just now!
Here are some questions from me and you can come with your questions and possible answers.
Which teams will continue to rally in the future?
Which factory teams continue to rally in the future?
What new factory teams will run against Citroen or Volkswagen in the future?
Who will still sponsor rallies in the future?
Is there money for more drivers than a few drivers who are paid just now?
Are the current rally cars not too expensive?
What do you think about the future. Do you have questions and possible answers?

Bring it on and let us talk about your views. :s mokin:

[AndyRAC]

Very good thread.
I still mantain that the WRC has got huge potential, more than any other Motorsport, due to variety of venues/countries visited. However, it needs to be managed properly – something which it has not happened over the last 10 years. The people running/involved in the sport need a dose of reality....
First, accept it’s not F1 – and don’t try to ape it! It could be a very successful 2nd Tier world sport, which is what the aim should be – and to become 2nd in popularity/prestige in Motorsport to F1.

[Brother John]

Yes WRC and other rallys can have again a huge potential but it is high time that something will change.
As private and local drivers also had the chance as before to drive cheaper, the same cars as the current top drivers
It would have been more interest from the people, sponsors and TV.
I think Europe will definitely need this the next 10 years .

[tfp]

Very good thread.
I still mantain that the WRC has got huge potential, more than any other Motorsport, due to variety of venues/countries visited. However, it needs to be managed properly – something which it has not happened over the last 10 years. The people running/involved in the sport need a dose of reality....
First, accept it’s not F1 – and don’t try to ape it! It could be a very successful 2nd Tier world sport, which is what the aim should be – and to become 2nd in popularity/prestige in Motorsport to F1.

+1 a good thread.
Which teams will be in in the future? Its dificult to say, but I wonder how much profit, if any, non factory teams make in a year? If they are making a loss, they can only do this for so long!
I think a good starting point for WRC to become more popular in the UK is the odd advert like Kris meekes( hes meeke, but not mild:-) and then grow from there.

[tfp]

. The people running/involved in the sport need a dose of reality....
First, accept it’s not F1 – .

http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/149091-scary-dangerous-crazy-places-stages-wrc-other-rallies-2.html

This page is full of one thing that WRC has and F1 doesn't have :D

[gtimad73]

I think that if all the wrc car had a standardized ecu set i.e no special maps for the works teams. The the private would have a better chance of winner and have a better chance of getting long term sponsors. i know that wouldnt make the sport any cheaper but it would make it a more even playing field.

[N.O.T]

I think that if all the wrc car had a standardized ecu set i.e no special maps for the works teams. The the private would have a better chance of winner and have a better chance of getting long term sponsors. i know that wouldnt make the sport any cheaper but it would make it a more even playing field.

then there would not be any manufacturers in the sport.....

The manufacturers are there to brag about having the best machines...if things were too equal then there would be no point in a manufacturer to enter.

[gtimad73]

but people are not watching the sport any more. so somethings got to be done to make people interested in it again. i don't really want to watch loeb win another 2 world championship because theres no cars to match the citroens. Surely if the private teams where contracted to bang on about how they won because ford,mini,citroen and so was the best car. they get there glory.

[Plan9]

Which teams will continue to rally in the future?

VW will have a second team, something from Ford & PSA as well. I am not sure Mini will have an official arraignment due to finance

Which factory teams continue to rally in the future?

VW, Ford, Prodrive, maybe something from PSA

What new factory teams will run against Citroen or Volkswagen in the future?

Kia/Hyundai, maybe Subaru/Toyota. I don't think we will see any more new cars for at least 2 years.

Who will still sponsor rallies in the future?

Similar to how it is done now. If we go to Russia, China we will see some unfamiliar state owned car companies sponsoring the events.

Is there money for more drivers than a few drivers who are paid just now?

I don't think that it is a question of money. If the rules were different we would see 3 car team again.

Are the current rally cars not too expensive?

I am not sure how it could be made cheap. There will always be an element of cost in this sport.

Very very good questions BTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[N.O.T]

but people are not watching the sport any more. so somethings got to be done to make people interested in it again. i don't really want to watch loeb win another 2 world championship because theres no cars to match the citroens. Surely if the private teams where contracted to bang on about how they won because ford,mini,citroen and so was the best car. they get there glory.

the domination of Loeb would still be there i think....

Citroen didn't have the best car for 8 years in a row... but Loeb was the best driver for 8 years in a row.

And i think that rallying lost its appeal for other reasons apart from the domination of CItroen/Loeb, the major one i think is the way sports are presented nowadays.

[sollitt]

then there would not be any manufacturers in the sport..... History doesn't support your negativity N.O.T.
If we go right back to the Grp 1,2 & 4 days privateers rallied cars of identical specification to the factory drivers. In the Grp A & B days they did similarly. And many had success and rather than detract from the factory effort, they in fact shared in the glory.
There's no reason why it ought be any different today.

gtimad73, you are quite correct. Presently we have 4 drivers who theoretically can win (6 if you count Mini) and this must be a deterent to entry. A return to open access to competitive machinery can only be a good thing.

[N.O.T]

History doesn't support your negativity N.O.T.
If we go right back to the Grp 1,2 & 4 days privateers rallied cars of identical specification to the factory drivers. In the Grp A & B days they did similarly. And many had success and rather than detract from the factory effort, they in fact shared in the glory.
There's no reason why it ought be any different today.


compare car sales and profits from the 70s-80s with car sales for today and you have your answer to that.

[sollitt]

compare car sales and profits from the 70s-80s with car sales for today and you have your answer to that. That has nothing to do with the prospect of allowing privateers to run identical machinery as factory drivers. If anything such allowance would assist the cause for the manufacturer.
Examples exist today in circuit racing where the factory may fund the R&D and the homologation which is then available to allcomers. Which is exactly as it was in rallying until quite recently, not just the 70's & 80's.

[AndyRAC]

If you want a current Fiesta WRCar.. there's only one place to go - M-Sport!! And that is wrong.....any prep company should be able to build a WRCar - like used to be.

[sollitt]

If you want a current Fiesta WRCar.. there's only one place to go - M-Sport!! And that is wrong.....any prep company should be able to build a WRCar - like used to be. You are correct Andy, but even worse is that if you go to M-Sport with your money you still won't get the same spec car as the contracted drivers.

If more drivers could get into competitive machinery and actually compete, that may well provide incentive for more manufacturer interest in the sport.

[Barreis]

Without live streams it's bad. Kids don't care for sport, only real fans. More works seats needed (with paid drivers, non paying).

[bopApocalypse]

You are correct Andy, but even worse is that if you go to M-Sport with your money you still won't get the same spec car as the contracted drivers.

If more drivers could get into competitive machinery and actually compete, that may well provide incentive for more manufacturer interest in the sport.

I have to wonder if going (back?) to an actual manufacturer's championship (ie. if you finish in the points in a Ford, instead of your "Billy Bob's/Yellow Power Tool/Energy Drink World Rally Team" getting points, Ford gets points.) would help from that aspect - certainly seems like it would provide much less of an incentive for a car builder to handicap some of their cars.

But then, when they get around to showing the manufacturer leader board with only two or three entries on it, WRC/North One will have to own up to the fact that they really don't have much interest from some key players.

[tfp]

If you want a current Fiesta WRCar.. there's only one place to go - M-Sport!! And that is wrong.....any prep company should be able to build a WRCar - like used to be.

My thoughts exactly!

[janvanvurpa]

[/I][/B]I am not sure how it could be made cheap. There will always be an element of cost in this sport.

Very very good questions BTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By a few rules we had for decades:
Minimum run of vehicles: xxxxxx units.
Make it 10,000

Gearbox: Series production gearbox..and diffs and driveshafts and CVs

You can sure as hell bet that within no time at all that every car would have a reliable enough box and diffs full of the right ratios and final drive and diffs.

The current teams would whine and cry and sniffle that they are all going to commit collective hari-kari cause they will claim it can't be done.

But high performance road bikes have absurdly wonderful amazingly reliable gearboxes and have had then 5-6 speed sequential boxes, for 40 years or more.
Free with every bike.

Oh. Standard hubs---and bodyshells, that would focus the attention on the insane suspension and shell costs.

This is basically waht original Group A was...

And ANYBODY could buy a new shell-in-white for under 1000 English squids.

[olschl]

Awesome thread Brother John! I can tell you as a relative newcomer to the sport, and spending quite a bit of the time learning the history of the series over the last couple of years, I feel the next five years are going to be very exciting indeed. I may not have the intimate knowledge of the technical history of the sport that some of you do but I can tell you I think the competition is closing up on Loeb and next year should be a barn-burner for sure! My biggest complaint with the WRC at this point is the quality of the coverage. I just can't rationalize waiting 3 weeks to watch ~75 mins of ESPN coverage and ~135 mins of MotorsTV coverage, it's just not enough! Not only from a sheer volume standpoint but from a technical and celebrity standpoint as well. I understand producing the coverage is expensive but I would rather have the amateurish web coverage we had on Rally France than nothing at all. For this sport to succeed, it's needs emotional investment in the drivers on the part of the fans. I need to know more about the individual drivers, their personalities, their cars, their co-drivers, etc. I can say as an "outsider", that this forum takes as awfully harsh stance with a sport that I am so envious you have to enjoy. To some extent I feel it is taken for granted and growing up with the sport has given some a sense of nostalgia that is not quite objective. I know you all love the sport and have things you would like to change but for me, I see the future of WRC going nowhere but up! I dream of one day saving enough money to make it to Rally Finland but that will probably remain just a dream!

[sollitt]

You're absolutely correct John.
The move away from the homologated model into the World Rally Car format was good in theory but in practice the costs to be competitive have skyrocketed.
Another drawback has been the resultant lack of 2WD homologations as thesse have ceased to be necessary.

[Brother John]

I love to read your opinions here, it's also good to get to know each other more here on the forum. http://www.motorsportforums.com/images/icons/icon14.png
It would be wonderful if the FIA would listen to real rally fans.
Personally I think this problem is currently the same as the current world politics.

But back to the rallysport now.
Of course we can not go back to how it was in the past but we saw many more candidates at that time in a position to become a top rally driver in the future.

We, too, the fans have certainly to complain not in modern times that we can follow almost everything live. Earlier maybe we could read in the newspaper on Monday who had won the rally. The only people who you could talk about rally were members in a motorsport club or association.

Thanks again for your ideas and opinions here about the rally sport.
Hopefully I can see many members return back to the rally forum.

[gtimad73]

Without live streams it's bad. Kids don't care for sport, only real fans. More works seats needed (with paid drivers, non paying).
I agree there has to be more live streaming, the trial they did this year was excellent. But they also need to get it on mainstream channels, and get bbc sport/sky news (and who ever it is in your country) covering it again.

[Sulland]

In my opinion the Rally sport need to be simplified.

Tech regs WRC: Keep the, simple so that the end product can be bought and maintained by privateers, without using your own millions or millions of you keep chasing sponsors for. All data should be Open, for those who buy a car. If we in 2016 or something go down 3-5 sec pr km, not many would notice, but more could participate. In a few years we would be back up to level again anyway...

Tech regs Regional and national layers: Make 4 classes. 2 in 2 wd and 2 in 4 wd - kill the rest. They are to be called Tuned and untuned 2 and 4 wd classes, as in Sweden. All could be 1600 cc, with and without turbo. Most non petrol-heads understand that.

Better coverage online: Further develop the services that allows people to follow rally online.

Better coverage on TV: Same as above. More outside cameras, and use of helicopters. Use of split picture with telemetry data for those interested, and comparison of two cars.

In WRC it should be two layers, one factory and one for private teams. Private teams need to go to 50% of WRC rounds to keep cost down.

[Brother John]

In my opinion the Rally sport need to be simplified.

With most of what you say I agree with you Sulland but that will not be easy for the FIA ​​to get this far!

[6789]

Given the struggle that the EU is having at the moment I think it will be difficult to see any more manufacturers in the sport and could expect one Citroen to drop out at the end of Loebs contract. Ford aren;t even committed to next year yet and Mini are talking about another development season.

A common union is a really good idea to me, but the common currency makes it difficult.

I don't mean to be so pessimistic, but what happens if there is 1 manufacturer left in the sport?

[Brother John]

Given the struggle that the EU is having at the moment I think it will be difficult to see any more manufacturers in the sport and could expect one Citroen to drop out at the end of Loebs contract. Ford aren;t even committed to next year yet and Mini are talking about another development season.

A common union is a really good idea to me, but the common currency makes it difficult.

I don't mean to be so pessimistic, but what happens if there is 1 manufacturer left in the sport?

Nobody knows now, we do not yet know for 2012 what car will drive and who will drave with those cars that will be at the start of Monte Carlo.

[6789]

^ Yeah hope for the best, hopefully there are four manu's in the sport come 2013 and 2014.

[darkstar]

something interesting about the costs, start watching at 7:40 min. The Vatanen Touch (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7003749463926475725)

so it´s the same problem now since almost 40 years ;) costs are high in motorsport, it´s the same now then it was back then. of course we talk about mutch more money today but in relation to what money is worth now and what it was worth in the 70´s it´s probably not a big difference...

[Brother John]

;)
something interesting about the costs, start watching at 7:40 min. The Vatanen Touch (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7003749463926475725)

so it´s the same problem now since almost 40 years costs are high in motorsport, it´s the same now then it was back then. of course we talk about mutch more money today but in relation to what money is worth now and what it was worth in the 70´s it´s probably not a big difference...

Now you hear this from someone who has money now, how was it 20 years ago?
Besides, he drove in that videa with a private team. :D

[janvanvurpa]

something interesting about the costs, start watching at 7:40 min. The Vatanen Touch (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7003749463926475725)

so it´s the same problem now since almost 40 years ;) costs are high in motorsport, it´s the same now then it was back then. of course we talk about mutch more money today but in relation to what money is worth now and what it was worth in the 70´s it´s probably not a big difference...

Ganz fehl
I began working on rally cars in early 80s. And continue till now. Like 0130 last night making parts for a panic job.
I know the shell prep costs in the 70s because that is what we were doing in '84-85. And by the end of 80s it was more serious in just say shell prep. Ford Motorsport said in their great book "How to Prepare the Sierra for Motorsport" it took then about 100 man/hours for cage and shell prep (stitch weld)...
When the World Rally car rules came in, the costs for the most basic part, the shell JUMPED! to make a fwd shell into a AWD shell.
And in the 00ies when the long LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG suspension came on the scene, the cost to completely by hand fabricate the whole wheelhousings front and rear and do current cage was said by somebody at Ford or Mini to be "500 man/hours".
So, even if labor and materials cost the same--and they don't----that is 500% more time.

Now in the early 80s if I bought shocks for customer Opel or for my Saab, 4 rally Bilstein shocks and 4 hi quality Swedish cost under USD500.
Seit 2003 I manufacture rally suspension aimed at CLUB guys and a typical car set costs USD2000 here and the same exact thing in say Sweden from Janne Sellholm cost twice that.

A MkII Group 4 Escort in the 70s WRC used the same 40mm Bilstein inserts as I use today for most. Cost is up 400% for that one part.
(and in general all costs are up around ca 300% since the mid 70s)

But a works car today does not use the same thing as a WRC Escort then or a clubbie car in little old USA.
Their suspension costs more than $15,000. It is 100 times or more expensive.
The Gp4 Escort used a standard road car spindle at the bottom of the strut, maybe 6 Pounds English then.
The current cars have fabricated uprights costing thousands, CV joints (gleichlaufgelenk weisst du) and axles costing GBP 2000 for second hand

A gearbox for the ZF box cost several hundred Pounds in the 70s and many club level guys bought them then. A geabox today is 30,000-100,000 GBP or who knows.
200 times more expensive AND only 20 made maybe.

To barrow a phrase from yet another idiot Republican over here running for President "Nein Nein Nein" Things are orders of multitudes more expensive than in the 70s or early 80s, dozens of times more costly in constant dollars/Pounds/D mark usw than the late 80s/early 90s


Total entry numbers bear this out too and also WHO is participating.

[Plan9]

Maybe if Citroen, Ford and Mini are not fully committed to 2012 we will see something like the early 1990s where not every manufacturer turned up to every event, or at least not with an factory car?

[tfp]

Maybe if Citroen, Ford and Mini are not fully committed to 2012 we will see something like the early 1990s where not every manufacturer turned up to every event, or at least not with an factory car?

Group A :up:

While I agree with a lot of points made here, the majority are negative.
I think the introduction of the powerstage is the best idea for the sport in years.

[Mitch555]

Outside of Europe I see rallying becoming very bleak. We've had a fair amount of growth in Asia and the Pacific over the last few years (excluding Australia), however this growth is going to go to waste, and become a European game. Reason why this is was because we moved away from Group A regulations. What does Group A have to do with screwing up the sport in the Asia Pacific. Simple...

We should have tried to go back to Group A
The abolishment of Group A meant that manufacturers like Toyota, Subaru and Mitsubishi who had built road cars for Group A are not valid in today's market due to no Group A. After a while even Subaru and Mitsubishi are stopping production of the Impreza WRX STI (in favour of a 1.6 WRX STI) and the Lancer Evolution is going completely. Now all of you Europeans aren't going to find that a problem, however, in the Asia-Pacific it is going to be a massive problem. European car manufacturers hold most of the homologation for the 2WD cars. No Japanese manufacturers are doing that. And European cars in this region won't work as they only hold a tiny percent of the market. This means we're going to end up with another region, along with Canada/USA who have non FIA cars running around at the top. Absolutely pointless. The FIA either need to relax their rules to allow the building of 2WDs like Group A was run, where you could turn up in any car which complied with the rules and not so much of this homologation-crud. We had no Aussies running at Rally Australia pretty much as we don't go with FIA anymore (a big mistake), but we can't get manufacturer involvement with the current car rules set by the FIA, because these manufacturers hardly make up any market share in the Asia-Pacific region (apart from Subaru and Mitsubishi).

Really, the FIA lost their way on the rule changes for this year. We should have been seeing a Group A style championship. The hot hatch currently rules the roost in world markets, yet we still don't have something remotely similar on the stages. We have a Countryman instead of a Cooper JCW. DS3 and Polo are about right, but they still don't have that road car element. It could have potentially saved Mitsubishi and Subaru's cars, and possibly made the PWRC a lot cheaper like it was back in the late 90s, as well as making the step up to the top level a lot easier for national runners. S2000 nor this 1.6 Turbo kit car thing does this element as well as they are still expensive cars you really need to buy from an M-Sport, Prodrive etc.

Finally at a national level, I do not think that the spectacle of the sport should eventually become a bunch of front wheel drive cars with limited power. The Honda Civic and Renault Clio are great don't get me wrong, but it isn't the same, and not as exciting on gravel.

So I don't see the sport getting anywhere outside of Europe with these regulations which are in place.

[Plan9]

You are right. In NZ they are just running old PWRC spec cars and are kind of boring to watch now that you have seen them for about 6-8 years in a row. I am not sure how we can improve down here either but we have been running some older Fiesta s2000s that have become quite popular. I think that the R2,3 cars could do okay but as you say there is not a big audience for Renaults just yet; although they are quite cheap here.

[sollitt]

I hear what you're saying Mitch, in fact I've been telling our decision makers much the same for some years, so I agree with most of it. However, whether or not the future is bleak (and it needn't be) is dependant on the decisions made by promoters and administrators.
Following the FIA is fine to a point but it makes little sense if all the homologations don't reflect your domestic scene. In a land where the market is almost entirely Japanese, why would you promote a category of European machinery?

Rallying in Australia & New Zealand owes little, if anything, to the WRC. In fact it's sole purpose in recent years is to provide fuel for the chest puffing of our gravy train riding past presidents.
The sooner we ditch it and begin promoting something regionally that relates more to our domestic scenes the better off we'd all be. Not only will it serve our competitors better but we'd make far better fist of it than the dreary old FIA.

Plan9, I don't know whether I agree with your description of "old PWRC cars". In fact we run up to the minute GrpN. And yes, for the most part it is boring but the competitors seem to like it.
The Fiesta's were never popular. Only 5 have ever existed and seldom more than 2 or 3 turned out at a time, and they only attract drivers because of the big overseas prize on offer.
Rally cars should look & sound like race cars. Let's be honest, both the Fiesta's, R1 & R2 are about as exciting as kumquat soup. R3 has the goods but at $150K a go, for 2WD, who's going to run one?

For S2000, the FIA allowed a 'regional homologation'. If they could do it for S2000 they can do it for all formula and permit their usage in all levels of event. That might get some wheels turning.

[Sulland]

Maybe the real problem with cost will go away if we kill the manufacturer championship?Then simplify the tech regs and leave the building to private tuning firms!



The really interessting thing with the Escort Gr 4 example, is that that is the car every driver still love to drive, and we love to look at.
That should tell fia something.......

[Mirek]

janvanvurpa: While I basically agree with You I can see difficulties to get such logical ideas into the reality of today.

I'm working in car industry (aircondition development for many car brands, myself working on Ford projects). From what I can see the car manufacturer world is now different than in 70' and 80' when the cars were originals, there were services able to repair something - not just the common way of today when modules are just replaced by new ones without thinking what is wrong. Cars were not made of same cheap parts produced by millions and shared by half of the global market. There were no automatic production lines which are not suitable for small productions of performance cars. There were simpler standards and requirements about safety, ecology etc. which leads to very complicated and expensive testing of anything new which on the other hand must be made in largest possible quantity and as simple and cheap as possible to get the cost back.

The production principles got to the state that they are so effective that in result it is way cheaper for manufacturer to separate sport from production completely. Rather than lightly modify a stock car with all the risk in putting something new in the moving colossus of serial project You choose to build a completely new hi-tech hand-made car as in result it is both more performance-effective and cheaper.

Unfortunately I don't see getting back to gr.A-like principles possible. The big players will keep rules suitable for their business...

[Plan9]

I hear what you're saying Mitch, in fact I've been telling our decision makers much the same for some years, so I agree with most of it. However, whether or not the future is bleak (and it needn't be) is dependant on the decisions made by promoters and administrators.
Following the FIA is fine to a point but it makes little sense if all the homologations don't reflect your domestic scene. In a land where the market is almost entirely Japanese, why would you promote a category of European machinery?

Rallying in Australia & New Zealand owes little, if anything, to the WRC. In fact it's sole purpose in recent years is to provide fuel for the chest puffing of our gravy train riding past presidents.
The sooner we ditch it and begin promoting something regionally that relates more to our domestic scenes the better off we'd all be. Not only will it serve our competitors better but we'd make far better fist of it than the dreary old FIA.

Plan9, I don't know whether I agree with your description of "old PWRC cars". In fact we run up to the minute GrpN. And yes, for the most part it is boring but the competitors seem to like it.
The Fiesta's were never popular. Only 5 have ever existed and seldom more than 2 or 3 turned out at a time, and they only attract drivers because of the big overseas prize on offer.
Rally cars should look & sound like race cars. Let's be honest, both the Fiesta's, R1 & R2 are about as exciting as kumquat soup. R3 has the goods but at $150K a go, for 2WD, who's going to run one?

For S2000, the FIA allowed a 'regional homologation'. If they could do it for S2000 they can do it for all formula and permit their usage in all levels of event. That might get some wheels turning.

I'm unsure that anyone outside the Paddons, Masons and Gilmours have the latest gear from Europe?

[sollitt]

The formula is Group N. Since when has it been regionally based? The homologated parts are the homologated parts regardless of where they originate and you can be quite sure that, with the commitment & competitiveness of the NZRC, those guys are using the very best componentry they can source. Of the three you mention, as far as I'm aware, only Mason's car is a European product. There are others in the country but regardless, a car out of NAM or PBM or any number of other workshops is every bit the measure of Group N machinery anywhere.
That is exactly the point being made by janvanverpa and others about Group A. Return to a formula where the rules are the rules, the parts are either legal or they're not, and let anybody with the ability and inclination get on and build an eligible car.

[zephyr]

Hi, if you don't feel to read, scroll down.


The answer to that question comes from me, a fan of the sport but not an expert.
As a french-canadian, the auto-sport I have been raised with was F1, Indy and, if from a small city, Nascar.
I have learned about rally sometime about 12 years ago, with the help of: computer games (Collin McRae's), our national rally championship (which is aired at midnight between a poker game and a dog show) and a T.V. Show called “The world of sports from Gillett”.


Strangely, like me, the ones that I know who like rally don't watch other car events, with the exception of: Montréal GP(action and it's here), Monaco GP, Indianapolis and Bristol. Because in all these other sports, all they do is that they turn in a circle. We don't care.
But, we can (try to) put ourselves in the minds of a rally driver, specially when “onboard”.


In all other auto-sport, all you are waiting for is an accident.
Not in rally; you want them to succeed.


So, this is what I would do if I were the boss of WRC:


1-Cleaners:
After each stage, there would be a team of “cleaners” with high pressure water hoses that would clean the doors of each car for 1 minute (perhaps is this done). There is no point for being a sponsor if the spectators can only see your name in 2 stages a day. Eeach car would be cleaned for each stages.


2-Internet:
I can't understand that in these days we can't have a “real time” image of what is going on. Wi-fi too costly, or impossible in remote places? At each end of a stage, the co-driver gives a USB key to a camera crew and receives a new one. On this key is all the onboard images.


That would make possible the “amazing” possibility that when listening to the WRC radio, the internet spectators could also see the onboard of the last drivers.


3-Places to visit:
There are 13 wonderful places to visit via the WRC schedule, why not sell them? And there is no need to ask the customer to visit while the rally is taking place.


Here, the Tour de France is shown live everyday and has a highlight every night. Not on a sports channel, on a cable channel called “Evasion” who is only about travels and vacations. During the race, they show the area. The ads are paid by plane companies and “lonely planets”.


The first two stages of this weekend's rally were really nice to see, but I have no idea where it is and what is fun to do in this area. Is it nice to be there in June?


4-Global audience:
There are no rallyes in: North America (meaning USA and Canada), none in Korea, none in Japan, none in China, none in Inda, none in Brazil.
How would you want to attract car builders to your sport?


Mexico, Jordan or France (so near to Germany and Monte Carlo is coming back) could easily be replaces with:
a)North America: near Québec City, Vancouver (or Cascadia), Colorado or Nevada.
b)China.


5-Nascar:
Reading from the blog of Mr. Warmbold, I have seen that at 5M$ a year you could have a WRC car.
Are you kidding me? The last Nascar team has this amount of money. And only 42 cars are starting a race. The last one doesn't start the race.


The problem is not that it's too expensive. The problem is that WRC is not a good investment for a sponsor.


If WRC can work on to make sure that its product is a good investment, don't worry, the money will fallow.
10 manufacturers and all...


6-*The cars are not the same as the ones on the street.
BS.
Btw, I'm pretty sure that the Mini and the Clubman have the same frame. I would bet 1$ that it's only a marketing thing.
Moreover, in Nascar, they have cars that ARE ALL THE SAME!!!!!
All running on coal!
And the manufacturers are still bragging about their wins, and the fans do the same about their heroes.


All this to say that there is an immense market not taken by rally deciders.
And I think that this has nothing to do with the Groupe A and all...

[janvanvurpa]

janvanvurpa: While I basically agree with You I can see difficulties to get such logical ideas into the reality of today.

I'm working in car industry (aircondition development for many car brands, myself working on Ford projects). From what I can see the car manufacturer world is now different than in 70' and 80' when the cars were originals, there were services able to repair something - not just the common way of today when modules are just replaced by new ones without thinking what is wrong. Cars were not made of same cheap parts produced by millions and shared by half of the global market. There were no automatic production lines which are not suitable for small productions of performance cars. There were simpler standards and requirements about safety, ecology etc. which leads to very complicated and expensive testing of anything new which on the other hand must be made in largest possible quantity and as simple and cheap as possible to get the cost back.

The production principles got to the state that they are so effective that in result it is way cheaper for manufacturer to separate sport from production completely. Rather than lightly modify a stock car with all the risk in putting something new in the moving colossus of serial project You choose to build a completely new hi-tech hand-made car as in result it is both more performance-effective and cheaper.

Unfortunately I don't see getting back to gr.A-like principles possible. The big players will keep rules suitable for their business...

pozdravy Mirek,

One of the 'interesting' thing about getting older and working some newer things yet still when there demand aka a customer, building old cars is seeing trends in designs and production methods. Intersting to see the life span of a block or a spline in a shaft in a gearbox. Before it was square root, then poof! 60 degree p.a., or maybe 45 p.a..

I see and understand very well what you are saying. Indeed a couple of years ago I read of a meeting that a number of very divergent manufacturers requested of FIA to discuss "the next generation" of small car motors.
Ford, Mercedes, Mazda, several others all said that with the power of modern FEA intergrated right into the design software, the next generation of engines "will by just wjhat they are and near nothing left over" meaning little tuning capability before the things would be at block or crank limits.......
Therefore they said "We need to be able to make purpose built blocks, cranks, heads etc...

Oi Oi Oi.

I say with a giant sigh, but a real sport I enjoyed doing, and help 27 years of friends with motors and suspension and to fill their dreams has at the top end, once an imagined to be "an imaginable thing" has now become a "mere spectacle of speed" forever unimaginable except to a few people independantly wealthy or with access to a LOT of "other people's money".

We see above this post the voice of the future. Raised on video games, he knows what the real world sport needs "On board---so it looks like a video game, instant results---so its not waiting, and WRC already has the "Reset buttonn"...

So strange, I think endless incar shots are the most boring and useless thing possible.

plus ca change,

[Mitch555]

Tonight I am going to construct a very long post. There is a lot wrong with our sport, and sadly the F1A don't feel the need to act. Not to have a stab at Europe, but it is part of the problem. The developments by the FIA are only benefiting your region and certainly not rally as a whole around the world. Among everything else. I shall be back....

Yes I'm a little ticked off :P

[tfp]

Tonight I am going to construct a very long post. There is a lot wrong with our sport, and sadly the F1A don't feel the need to act. Not to have a stab at Europe, but it is part of the problem. The developments by the FIA are only benefiting your region and certainly not rally as a whole around the world. Among everything else. I shall be back....

Yes I'm a little ticked off :P

Agreed, trouble is, the sports not exactly huge in europe either ;)

[GigiGalliNo1]

Tonight I am going to construct a very long post. There is a lot wrong with our sport, and sadly the F1A don't feel the need to act. Not to have a stab at Europe, but it is part of the problem. The developments by the FIA are only benefiting your region and certainly not rally as a whole around the world. Among everything else. I shall be back....

Yes I'm a little ticked off :P

You go girl! :P

[Barreis]

Tonight I am going to construct a very long post. There is a lot wrong with our sport, and sadly the F1A don't feel the need to act. Not to have a stab at Europe, but it is part of the problem. The developments by the FIA are only benefiting your region and certainly not rally as a whole around the world. Among everything else. I shall be back....

Yes I'm a little ticked off :P

Just do it.

[focus206]

Tonight I am going to construct a very long post. There is a lot wrong with our sport, and sadly the F1A don't feel the need to act. Not to have a stab at Europe, but it is part of the problem. The developments by the FIA are only benefiting your region and certainly not rally as a whole around the world. Among everything else. I shall be back....

Yes I'm a little ticked off :P

Well, if the great rallies around the world are like the ones in Jordan or Mexico, then I'm really happy we have almost every rally of the WRC in Europe...

[BDunnell]

Outside of Europe I see rallying becoming very bleak. We've had a fair amount of growth in Asia and the Pacific over the last few years (excluding Australia), however this growth is going to go to waste, and become a European game. Reason why this is was because we moved away from Group A regulations. What does Group A have to do with screwing up the sport in the Asia Pacific. Simple...

We should have tried to go back to Group A
The abolishment of Group A meant that manufacturers like Toyota, Subaru and Mitsubishi who had built road cars for Group A are not valid in today's market due to no Group A. After a while even Subaru and Mitsubishi are stopping production of the Impreza WRX STI (in favour of a 1.6 WRX STI) and the Lancer Evolution is going completely. Now all of you Europeans aren't going to find that a problem, however, in the Asia-Pacific it is going to be a massive problem. European car manufacturers hold most of the homologation for the 2WD cars. No Japanese manufacturers are doing that. And European cars in this region won't work as they only hold a tiny percent of the market. This means we're going to end up with another region, along with Canada/USA who have non FIA cars running around at the top. Absolutely pointless. The FIA either need to relax their rules to allow the building of 2WDs like Group A was run, where you could turn up in any car which complied with the rules and not so much of this homologation-crud. We had no Aussies running at Rally Australia pretty much as we don't go with FIA anymore (a big mistake), but we can't get manufacturer involvement with the current car rules set by the FIA, because these manufacturers hardly make up any market share in the Asia-Pacific region (apart from Subaru and Mitsubishi).

An interesting point, definitely. But surely the manufacturers about whom you're talking can't be forced to participate in the WRC if they don't want to? They have shown little interest in recent times no matter what the rules may be.



Really, the FIA lost their way on the rule changes for this year. We should have been seeing a Group A style championship. The hot hatch currently rules the roost in world markets, yet we still don't have something remotely similar on the stages. We have a Countryman instead of a Cooper JCW. DS3 and Polo are about right, but they still don't have that road car element. It could have potentially saved Mitsubishi and Subaru's cars, and possibly made the PWRC a lot cheaper like it was back in the late 90s, as well as making the step up to the top level a lot easier for national runners. S2000 nor this 1.6 Turbo kit car thing does this element as well as they are still expensive cars you really need to buy from an M-Sport, Prodrive etc.

Finally at a national level, I do not think that the spectacle of the sport should eventually become a bunch of front wheel drive cars with limited power. The Honda Civic and Renault Clio are great don't get me wrong, but it isn't the same, and not as exciting on gravel.

I agree. There is in part the same problem in the UK. I have always felt that, for rallying to achieve anything like the popularity it once enjoyed, national championships have to be able to run the same equipment in their top classes as participates in the WRC, yet this has been rendered impossible.

[BDunnell]

Well, if the great rallies around the world are like the ones in Jordan or Mexico, then I'm really happy we have almost every rally of the WRC in Europe...

I don't think there would be anything wrong in reverting to the sort of calendar we saw in, say, the early 1990s while the sport re-establishes itself. Hardly any of the 'new' events have been able to establish a foothold, and why would we expect them to when world rallying is in the doldrums?

[GigiGalliNo1]

I want to go to Rally Mexico in 2012! If there was Jordan, rather go there! Not many people - great for spectators then... and easy access... not sure how much to get there from Europe, pretty cheap but from Australia it's ok price - but still I'd go! Mexico is bloody expensive to fly from Australia... over $2000 in flights! Cheap though for US people... which is who they (FIA) should be targeting!

[tmx]

In term of coverages, don't watch WRC much anymore because the TV coverage sucks. I do watch the Power Stage though since its live. I know people don't like WRC to be F1, but live coverage is important. Instead of 3 separate days review, it should be 3 live coverages, just pick the last stage for each day and cover it live, then one highlight after the rally. Either that or cover live the qualifying and powerstage. But I think the idea of youtube.com/wrc and free onboard videos are excellent. FOM prohibit that stuff for F1.

[Camelopard]

Well, if the great rallies around the world are like the ones in Jordan or Mexico, then I'm really happy we have almost every rally of the WRC in Europe...

What in your opinion was wrong with the rallies in Jordan. I can't comment on Mexico as I haven't been there, but can highly recommend Jordan after 2 trips there. Very friendly people, no trees to block your vision, free access to stages, easy to get around. My only complaint was that is was stinking hot in 2008.

[focus206]

What in your opinion was wrong with the rallies in Jordan. I can't comment on Mexico as I haven't been there, but can highly recommend Jordan after 2 trips there. Very friendly people, no trees to block your vision, free access to stages, easy to get around. My only complaint was that is was stinking hot in 2008.

Well, I guess they are personal opinions, but I really don't like Rally Jordan (and neither Rally Mexico). Maybe because they are gravel dusty rallies (and we have already a good number of them on the WRC calendar) in semi-desertic places... also I don't like the stages: before the usual gravel dusty stages, in Mexico this year we had a SSS on the underground (I think inside a mine) but it was very short and first crews completed it in less than one minute, so hardly a "news"...
Instead, I wasn't expecting so much from Rally Alsace this year, but I found it a nice rally. With this I don't want to say we need more asphalt and less gravel on the WRC, we have enough asphalt already in my opinion, but we should search more particular and great gravel rallies than the one in Mexico and Jordan... this is my opinion, I don't know if most of the fans like or not these 2 rallies.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Well two of the only three Tarmac rounds look and seem to be the same.

Yawn.

Bring back hard gravel, stone and rock rallies like Cyprus, yes Cyprus won't be back but still.

What else is a great Tarnac rally? Ireland.. Anything else outside of the WRC?

[Barreis]

Happy to see MC back.

[tfp]

Happy to see MC back.

Me too, I also like Corsica:-)
Im not too keen on germany, and its a bit silly how close it is to alsace!

[Sulland]

I hope FIA will take the real power back from the manufacturers soon.

I feel that the 2011 WRCar too soon in its lifespan was as fast as its predesessor. It is, even if it is simpler than the 2.0 version, the car is in its first year close to being as fast as the fastest rallycar ever.

Next time around FIA cant give in, and need to make its decisions based on their own conclusions, after heering all parties, and for the good of; first the drivers and the fans, and then manufacurers.
If that means the manufacturers leaves rally, so be it. Many tuning firms are there to take over.

The costfactor of todays WRC is about to kill the sport. Very few seats are available, and fewer drivers earns money on their 'job', talent are wasted because of lack of sponsors.

This is what F1 has become, but that is the tech pinnacle of motorsport. Rally is more of man mastering the car in changing conditions, but the tech does not have to be top notch, more importantly more or less equal btw brands, so that the brand is less important than the driver.

I know that many here are mostly interested in the technology, to me it is mostly about the drivers skills, not the engineer.

[BDunnell]

I hope FIA will take the real power back from the manufacturers soon.

I feel that the 2011 WRCar too soon in its lifespan was as fast as its predesessor. It is, even if it is simpler than the 2.0 version, the car is in its first year close to being as fast as the fastest rallycar ever.

Next time around FIA cant give in, and need to make its decisions based on their own conclusions, after heering all parties, and for the good of; first the drivers and the fans, and then manufacurers.
If that means the manufacturers leaves rally, so be it. Many tuning firms are there to take over.

The costfactor of todays WRC is about to kill the sport. Very few seats are available, and fewer drivers earns money on their 'job', talent are wasted because of lack of sponsors.

This is what F1 has become, but that is the tech pinnacle of motorsport. Rally is more of man mastering the car in changing conditions, but the tech does not have to be top notch, more importantly more or less equal btw brands, so that the brand is less important than the driver.

I know that many here are mostly interested in the technology, to me it is mostly about the drivers skills, not the engineer.

Over the weekend, I watched both Rally GB (God, how I hate to use that dreadful name) and the Abu Dhabi GP. Both, for the most part, left me utterly cold. Maybe the video game-esque spectacle of a modern F1 race around a soulless circuit appeals to some, but not me. All I could think of watching the rally was how great the old RAC used to be. And in both cases I in no way found the speeds being attained impressive in themselves.

[Brother John]

Many forum members seem to know, (if I read the other threads) who and what teams do next year.
If you see what happens economically in many companies, we will see more bad news in the rally sport before next season I think.

[wrc1600]

I have seen dozens of wrc rallies, all in Europe and can say that from spectator point of view most rallies and the way they run are ok. So called compact rallies are really good think but too often they end too early. It seems that they could run third loop every day in most rallies as normally they finish mid afternoon. It is maybe great when you go for the first time as you have lots of time to visit some tourist atractions but if you go few times there is not much to do after stages. I spectated kind of endurance rally- Monte Carlo, great idea but very expensive, exhausting and not so exciting when there is no snow. Also logistic is a big thing.
We need to go few years back and bring Corsica, add to the calendar new rallies (there is huge demand in eastern Europe), bring back evening highlights on Eurosport and extend daily loops.

[MJW]

Interesting article in Autosport (printed version) on thursday 24 Nov by Kris Meeke. Kris thought the 4 day "endurance" Wales Rally GB was wrong as it added to the cost and dragged out the event and the road mileage, Kris was in favour of keeping the endurance element but suggested a 30 hour format, with long days. I think that makes a lot of sense as a good compromise, teams can keep their paddock club type service set ups, even go back to Cardiff every night. What we need is less trips back to service park, have more re-fuel halts, keep the stage kms whilst reducing unnecessary nights in hotels.

[Plan9]

Me too, I also like Corsica:-)
Im not too keen on germany, and its a bit silly how close it is to alsace!

I want to see Portugal with a stronger asphalt component like the 1990s, Ireland with GB in the same calendar, San Remo and Corsica! 2002 had a great calendar!

[ShiftingGears]

I was thinking about this today - the coverage sucks.

I've seen Australian rallies broadcast on tv with amateurs flogging Datsuns through forests with better format than the WRC coverage. Even WRC season review DVD's with relatively short highlights of rallies from the early 90's give more than the current highlights packages.

They should also ditch whoever the commentator is. He's extremely irritating, and dull. The WRC has the resources to put out decent coverage with a decent commentator and decent editing, they should use them.

[Barreis]

I like MotorsTV coverages with long onboards. ESPN's 25 minutes is too short for enjoying.

[Plan9]

I was thinking about this today - the coverage sucks.

I've seen Australian rallies broadcast on tv with amateurs flogging Datsuns through forests with better format than the WRC coverage. Even WRC season review DVD's with relatively short highlights of rallies from the early 90's give more than the current highlights packages.

They should also ditch whoever the commentator is. He's extremely irritating, and dull. The WRC has the resources to put out decent coverage with a decent commentator and decent editing, they should use them.

I totally agree. In NZ the season review is crucial to continued WRC enjoyment unless you shell out for Sky. I really like the DUKE box set of the 1990s; which has some amazing footage.

I don't understand why its not on free to air down here, it would be the only way to expand coverage.

Hopefully the WRC boss doesn't flog all his assets to contend with his legal issues to invest more in coverage.

On another note, wasn't this clown at one stage meant to be bringing Saab back to wrc?

[tfp]

I totally agree. In NZ the season review is crucial to continued WRC enjoyment unless you shell out for Sky. I really like the DUKE box set of the 1990s; which has some amazing footage.

I don't understand why its not on free to air down here, it would be the only way to expand coverage.

Hopefully the WRC boss doesn't flog all his assets to contend with his legal issues to invest more in coverage.

On another note, wasn't this clown at one stage meant to be bringing Saab back to wrc?

He would have to pay off Saabs debt first! Oh wait a minute...
Clown is a very accurate name for him :D

[Sulland]

I like MotorsTV coverages with long onboards. ESPN's 25 minutes is too short for enjoying.

Here we disagree. I as a petrolhead, spending time writing here. I find inboard film totally uninteressting. But this is all they can afford.


Until Motors or whoever wins the contract for TV make their show better, and with the newest in TV tech, I will spend mpre time with Eurosport and IRC.

[sollitt]

I don't understand why its not on free to air down here, it would be the only way to expand coverage.
Because the sport is about as popular down here as a Labour party politician.

[tfp]

Because the sport is about as popular down here as a Labour party politician.

Harhar!!

[Plan9]

They share the same level of economic literacy as the clown of the WRC

[pete c]

which is still more than Tony Abbot......hahahahaha

[janvanvurpa]

Here we disagree. I as a petrolhead, spending time writing here. I find inboard film totally uninteressting. But this is all they can afford.



Hej Sulland,
I'm curious, when you say you find onboard view totally uninteresting, I'm curious. I do too, but I'm curious what more in the why, not the what. Why uninteresting?
What would you as long term guy around this sport like to see?

[Barreis]

What's wrong with long onboards?! Still remember Latvala's maybe 10 minutes long onboard from Jordan. I don't like JML but enjoyed the ride.

[tfp]

Does anyone have the full onboard for the rally argentina el-condor(ss4?) with JML? I'd love to see the tarmac section of it again but can only find the cut-down version!

[Barreis]

You can go on youtube/wrc and put request for that onboard.

[janvanvurpa]

What's wrong with long onboards?! Still remember Latvala's maybe 10 minutes long onboard from Jordan. I don't like JML but enjoyed the ride.

I can look at maps on Google maps if I just want to see a narrow view of a road.
I want to see dirt flying, SEE the angle of the CAR, see the suspension work, see the braking just short of locking, see the lines the CAR is driven.

In car I see s strip of road and thats it, or even worse medium close ups of drivers' impassive face.

I don't have some vaguely homo-erotic longing to see these guys faces, they're just guys, I want to see what their decisions RESULT in what the CAR does.

So no dirt flying, no car action, I just cannot get excited.......it's probably lack of imagination on my part since I spent from 1967 to 1997 on dirt and gravel.

[janvanvurpa]

Here, change the car---maybe---and this is what I want to see:http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/file.php?1,file=2078,filename=heinakuu.jpg

not a little section of road from between the narrow strip of windsceen.

[Brother John]

Still we know nothing about how WRC Rally will look and how this will evolve into the future.
Currently I see for 2012 not much improvement.
Will SWRC look better than those few wrc cars with a pair of the same drivers?

I think the FIA ​​would have done better to use the S2000 as WRC car for some years!
More brands and participants would be intrested to be in wrc in my opinion.
The two teams who did not want this after the 2009 season are now thinking differently because economic problems or leave the WRC within two years.

I see several post in this thread that actually do not belong here.
To read som news we have anyway the NEWS THREAD.
I thought In order to watch video, we have other threads to see that on this Forum! ;)

[Mirek]

I can look at maps on Google maps if I just want to see a narrow view of a road.
I want to see dirt flying, SEE the angle of the CAR, see the suspension work, see the braking just short of locking, see the lines the CAR is driven.

In car I see s strip of road and thats it, or even worse medium close ups of drivers' impassive face.

I don't have some vaguely homo-erotic longing to see these guys faces, they're just guys, I want to see what their decisions RESULT in what the CAR does.

So no dirt flying, no car action, I just cannot get excited.......it's probably lack of imagination on my part since I spent from 1967 to 1997 on dirt and gravel.


You know that people are different and have different taste. I'm of those who really like onboards (not the shots in drivers face though). Of course it should be some kind of a reasonable mix in TV relations - best favoring outside views because I'm aware I'm of the minority part of viewers.

[AndyRAC]

Can’t disagree – the FiA should have waited until 2015 for the new regs. Until then have S2000 as the top class; look at the Manufacturers of these cars; Peugeot, Ford, Skoda, Proton, Fiat-Abarth....and there are more. Unfortnately, Ford & Citroen got their way, rather than the WRC’s long term growth. And now look were we are; only 2 extra Manufacturers have signed up.
Ford still haven’t committed, Mini need more budget, NorthOne are having ‘troubles’ – it’s not looking great, is it?
Personally, I’d downsize for a year or two – make it a 10 round series, using the best events that show the sport in it’s best light, and see were that takes us. This isn’t F1 – In how many countries is Rallying a Top5 sport?? A handful, if that.

[BDunnell]

2011 really has been a year of 'no change' in the profile of the WRC, hasn't it? It's interesting that the entry of Mini hasn't led to the upsurge in interest in the UK that some predicted.

In quite moments this week I have found myself watching a number of old clips on YouTube, and while I am, with hindsight, no fan of the Group B supercars — it was clearly an unsustainable era and not good overall for the sport — I was struck by just how enormous the crowds watching them on the stages were. Too big, as we know now. This wasn't just the case on World Championship events, but British and European ones also. It begs the question — how did this happen? Let's not forget that TV coverage then, while looked back on fondly now, was not brilliant — I don't know what it was like elsewhere, but in the UK it was 15-20-minute (at most) highlights of some WRC rounds, the same for all British Open Championship rounds, and then extended coverage of the RAC. Very much less than F1, in other words, yet nonetheless the popularity of the sport was clear to see.

[rp]

the FiA should have waited until 2015 for the new regs. Until then have S2000 as the top class; look at the Manufacturers of these cars; Peugeot, Ford, Skoda, Proton, Fiat-Abarth....and there are more. Unfortnately, Ford & Citroen got their way, rather than the WRC’s long term growth. And now look were we are; only 2 extra Manufacturers have signed up.

This is the truth! I was then very disappointed about the decision and still has the same feeling...

If the S2000 would have been the main series already during the season 2010 we have had at least 4-5 Manufacturers fighting for the title and the costs had been on the lower level. The new 1.6T engines are very expensive and demanding to develop and it may be too much to attract new Manufacturers when the economical situation is just like now...

The competion would have been very tight (look at SWRC and IRC) and nobody have missed World Rally Cars...

[AndyRAC]

2011 really has been a year of 'no change' in the profile of the WRC, hasn't it? It's interesting that the entry of Mini hasn't led to the upsurge in interest in the UK that some predicted.

In quite moments this week I have found myself watching a number of old clips on YouTube, and while I am, with hindsight, no fan of the Group B supercars — it was clearly an unsustainable era and not good overall for the sport — I was struck by just how enormous the crowds watching them on the stages were. Too big, as we know now. This wasn't just the case on World Championship events, but British and European ones also. It begs the question — how did this happen? Let's not forget that TV coverage then, while looked back on fondly now, was not brilliant — I don't know what it was like elsewhere, but in the UK it was 15-20-minute (at most) highlights of some WRC rounds, the same for all British Open Championship rounds, and then extended coverage of the RAC. Very much less than F1, in other words, yet nonetheless the popularity of the sport was clear to see.

Agree about the TV coverage – it actually wasn’t a lot, except for the RAC – however, it was on either BBC or ITV...so reached a lot more people.
I think the power brokers are naive if they think having a top British driver would suddenly bring more interest to the sport – there is a whole raft of reasons. From 1976 – 1994 there was no British winner, they occasionally challenged and had the odd podium, but that didn’t stop huge crowds and very good media coverage.

[OldF]

I have some old statistics from 1994 (Vauhdin Maailma 1/1995) made by WTRA (world rally team association) and by their study WRC had 9,6 million on site spectators in 1994.

By rally

Monte Carlo 750 000
Portugal 1 100 000
Safari 1 500 000
Corsica 120 000
Acropolis 400 000
Argentina 800 000
New Zeeland 920 000
Finland 300 000
San Remo 1 600 000
RAC 2 100 000

By the article New Zeeland was in it’s own class by the numbers of spectators relative to the population. 25 % of the population spectating on site.

The population in Finland in 1994 was about 5,1 million which means that 5,9% of the population was spectating on site.

[DonJippo]

Finland 300 000

The population in Finland in 1994 was about 5,1 million which means that 5,9% of the population was spectating on site.

No these numbers mean there were 300 000 visits on stages during the event and if as an average one spectator saw six stages the right number of spectators was 50000. Even that may be a bit too many in reality as these statistics are estimations.

[OldF]

No these numbers mean there were 300 000 visits on stages during the event and if as an average one spectator saw six stages the right number of spectators was 50000. Even that may be a bit too many in reality as these statistics are estimations.


Yes I know that these figures are “gross” figures but IMO it’s impossible to even estimate the true amount of spectators.

[DonJippo]

Yes I know that these figures are “gross” figures but IMO it’s impossible to even estimate the true amount of spectators.

Exactly and as these numbers are mostly provided by organizers or other parties who have interest in rallying figures tend to be on high side, in reality rallying over all is not as popular as we would like to think it is, not even in Finland.

[sollitt]

I have some old statistics from 1994 (Vauhdin Maailma 1/1995) made by WTRA (world rally team association) and by their study WRC had 9,6 million on site spectators in 1994.

By rally

Monte Carlo 750 000
Portugal 1 100 000
Safari 1 500 000
Corsica 120 000
Acropolis 400 000
Argentina 800 000
New Zeeland 920 000
Finland 300 000
San Remo 1 600 000
RAC 2 100 000

By the article New Zeeland was in it’s own class by the numbers of spectators relative to the population. 25 % of the population spectating on site.

The population in Finland in 1994 was about 5,1 million which means that 5,9% of the population was spectating on site. I was an entrant of Rally NZ in '94 so obviously the 920,000 spectators were there to watch me. Me and some young fella called McSomething.

In truth the numbers are nonsense. It's unlikely 20,000 people turned out to watch let alone 920,000. Sometimes we need to stop reading our own press.

[Mirek]

I think that these numbers are really too high. I don't know how they count it but here traffic police estimates Barum rally audience to 200-250 thousand in last years. That could be truth because MotoGP event held in Brno (close to Zlin) usually has similar audience (around 150 thousand for Sunday and somewhat less in other two days) and there it is sure because it's held in closed area.

[Alpha]

There are a lot of things that can be done that might help the WRC, lower costs, better coverage, et cetera. But few have touched upon the REAL problem: There is no competition. For 2011, there were two teams with a realistic chance of winning. The factory teams of Citroen and Ford. Due to team orders the winner would be the top driver at the team that wins, unless something extraordinary (like a crash) happened.

So with 10-15 cars starting in the same class, only TWO drivers would have a realistic chance of winning.

Think about it! It's like watching soccer where one team has a goal twice the size of the others, or a golf tournament where only the two best players have drivers. Why the hell would anyone want to watch that?! I'm surprised I bothered to pay attention the whole season, and for the first time in many years there were whole rounds of the WRC that I didn't watch a single minute from.

The FIA needs to level the field a LOT more. Start with the most obvious offender, do like in F1, take control of the ECUs. Stop the factories from handing out horsepower at their own discretion. If the costs really are too high, enforce standardized diffs, gearboxes and/or suspension. The suspension components can be made to be interchangeable at all four corners. There are a lot more to keep costs at bay without loosing too much speed. Although we want to be careful and not dumb it down too much, it isn't Nascar.


When there actually is a competition again I can promise that both spectators and sponsors will come flocking back. There's a lot of attraction with the World Rally Championship, the problem is that it just isn't a championship any more. It's two guys and the rest, and I'm sick and tired of it.

[Mirek]

I don't think it is possible to make the cost lower by technical rules. Manufacturers will always spend as much as they are allowed to even the simplest possible part. Look at S2000 which is in fact very simple formula. All shocks are same without ball bearings, diffs are dumb clutchpacks with none center one, all transmission is highly standardized and limited to just two manufacturers. Cars have steel bodyshells. Carbon is allowed only for covering layer, no titanium allowed etc. There are limited options of homologating new things and even those like ECU software must be homologated. And in the end it's still rather expensive car with differences between works and private one.

It's like in a lumberjack competition. You can buy an axe for 10 Euro but the competition one costs 200 Euro even though it is still an axe.

[Sulland]

But you could do as they do in for instance Karting, keep or freeze homologation periodes for 3 years.

[Mirek]

No manufacturer will ever agree with that. They need to develop their speed and not to loose for three years just because they once homologated something wrong.

[pete c]

So do you really believe that F1 was a competition this year? one team dominated and both championships were over and done early.
At least the WRC drivers championship went down to the last round.
If you dont like it no one is making you watch it.
If you think that the manufacturers want to rally production based cars at the sports top level again, you're kidding your self.
Group N came and now is going,and personally i'm not going to miss it

[OldF]

I was an entrant of Rally NZ in '94 so obviously the 920,000 spectators were there to watch me. Me and some young fella called McSomething.

In truth the numbers are nonsense. It's unlikely 20,000 people turned out to watch let alone 920,000. Sometimes we need to stop reading our own press.

I was wondering about the numbers of NZ. In Finland tickets have been sold as long as I remember. In 1994 there was already a rally pass (called vauhtipassi at that time) but if I remember correctly me and my friend didn’t buy them because you should have to visit at least five stages before it pays off.

Maybe this tells something about the numbers. Tickets sold 1994 in NORF 95 000!

[OldF]

I don't think it is possible to make the cost lower by technical rules. Manufacturers will always spend as much as they are allowed to even the simplest possible part. Look at S2000 which is in fact very simple formula. All shocks are same without ball bearings, diffs are dumb clutchpacks with none center one, all transmission is highly standardized and limited to just two manufacturers. Cars have steel bodyshells. Carbon is allowed only for covering layer, no titanium allowed etc. There are limited options of homologating new things and even those like ECU software must be homologated. And in the end it's still rather expensive car with differences between works and private one.

It's like in a lumberjack competition. You can buy an axe for 10 Euro but the competition one costs 200 Euro even though it is still an axe.

The only way IMO is to use as many standard parts as possibly. I don’t know but I think that even about 95% of the parts are racing parts in a S2000. For a R2/R3 I think it’s about 50%.

Cost control will always be difficult but lets hope this cost control will work.

“’Final user’ cost control rules are extended in that every major item on the car must be available at under a maximum cost.”

GP Week (http://mag.gpweek.com/?iid=56625) (page 20)

[Mirek]

That is not the way because for manufacturer standard parts useful for competition use are way more expensive than special competition parts. That's how it is - for manufacturer it is much cheaper to build hand-made competition car than to produce thousands of half-competition cars. Also it is much more flexible because development and production planning of stock car takes years before a new one is launched.

The maximum cost for every component is already applied in S2000/WRC rules...

I also don't agree with making all cars using same standard components. That's no longer a manufacturer competition. It can be done for some cup to make numbers of entrants but not more.

[Sulland]

No manufacturer will ever agree with that. They need to develop their speed and not to loose for three years just because they once homologated something wrong.

So make a regime where manu's can apply for a change in homologation if one thing obviously make them slower pver time.


But to me the drivers championship is pri 1, and manu championship pri 2, (but not very important) not vice versa. Here we differ in view Mirek, and that is ok! ;)

[focus206]

But to me the drivers championship is pri 1, and manu championship pri 2, (but not very important) not vice versa. Here we differ in view Mirek, and that is ok!

For a manufacturer how can the driver championship be more important than the manufacturer championship?

[Mirek]

So make a regime where manu's can apply for a change in homologation if one thing obviously make them slower pver time.

Impossible to evaluate anyhow.


But to me the drivers championship is pri 1, and manu championship pri 2, (but not very important) not vice versa. Here we differ in view Mirek, and that is ok! ;)

It's manufacturers who drives the motorsport and it's them who sell cars so they are the most important. We can't change it.

For me the way to make the sport cheaper is to cancel any homologations completely. Just make clear simple rules and let anyone build whatever he wants. But this is what manufacturers will never allow to happen so again just an utopia.

[Sulland]

Works in rallycross !

[N.O.T]

Are there any manufacturers officially involved in rallycross ??

[Brother John]

For a manufacturer how can the driver championship be more important than the manufacturer championship?

Each time the driver wins a rally, the factory makes free advertising! :p :

That is the way to sell cars, so that's cheaper than to have a very expensive manu team with overpaid drivers. :s mokin:

[focus206]

Each time the driver wins a rally, the factory makes free advertising! :p :

That is the way to sell cars, so that's cheaper than to have a very expensive manu team with overpaid drivers. :s mokin:

Well, but if the manufacturer wins the title, they can do all the advertising they want saying, for example, "2011 World Rally Champion"... but they can't do an advertising saying "2011 World Drivers Rally Champion", it just sounds bad for the manufacturer :D

[Sulland]

Are there any manufacturers officially involved in rallycross ??

No.

But do you think a normal fan (not us petrolheads in here) see the difference if a VW MaxiRally car or a Polo WRC would win a rally. Most people would not see the difference - to them it is a VW.
Same with the other brands in MaxiRally, even if it is same "car" under the body !
RallySport Magazine - Tales from Argentina and their Maxi Rally Cars (http://www.rallysportmag.com.au/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6377&Itemid=2)

[N.O.T]

No.

But do you think a normal fan (not us petrolheads in here) see the difference if a VW MaxiRally car or a Polo WRC would win a rally. Most people would not see the difference - to them it is a VW.
Same with the other brands in MaxiRally, even if it is same "car" under the body !
RallySport Magazine - Tales from Argentina and their Maxi Rally Cars (http://www.rallysportmag.com.au/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6377&Itemid=2)

then why official car manufacturers are involved in motorsport if the fans cannot see the difference ??? maybe they are masochists and want to spend money right ?? maybe....

[Rallyper]

Well, but if the manufacturer wins the title, they can do all the advertising they want saying, for example, "2011 World Rally Champion"... but they can't do an advertising saying "2011 World Drivers Rally Champion", it just sounds bad for the manufacturer :D

Manutitles win one time each year. Winning a rally is possible almost every fortnight

[Mirek]

No.

But do you think a normal fan (not us petrolheads in here) see the difference if a VW MaxiRally car or a Polo WRC would win a rally. Most people would not see the difference - to them it is a VW.
Same with the other brands in MaxiRally, even if it is same "car" under the body !
RallySport Magazine - Tales from Argentina and their Maxi Rally Cars (http://www.rallysportmag.com.au/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6377&Itemid=2)

Seems that You don't see the point. Manufacturers don't need cheap cars same for everyone. They want to win and use the victory as a marketing tool. That means they need to have thing under full control and the cost is minor issue if it guarantees something. The cost is problem of privateers. And in the end for manufacturer it is important also to defeat its own privateers. It's a question of credit - an ordinary privateer must not defeat the manufacturer. Maybe cynic but it's like that.

Of course I understand Your logic but it's spectators point of view.

[Sulland]

I see the point, but that is of course seen from a manufacturer, I am meerly a fan, and want the show to be as good and exiting as possible. Not as it is today, where the result is a given - which citroen will win.

[OldF]

That is not the way because for manufacturer standard parts useful for competition use are way more expensive than special competition parts. That's how it is - for manufacturer it is much cheaper to build hand-made competition car than to produce thousands of half-competition cars. Also it is much more flexible because development and production planning of stock car takes years before a new one is launched.

The maximum cost for every component is already applied in S2000/WRC rules...

I also don't agree with making all cars using same standard components. That's no longer a manufacturer competition. It can be done for some cup to make numbers of entrants but not more.

For sure the overall cost will be higher when producing several thousands of parts and even higher if road cars are manufactured with half-competition parts which would make the road cars more expensive. Would any manufacturer risk their competitiveness compared to their competitors by manufacturing more expensive cars?

But the unit cost for a hand made part is far more compared to series production parts. These higher unit costs for hand made parts is the reason why the hand made cars are expensive. Some of the R2/R3 cars parts are reinforced or/and modified standard parts.

As Sulland already said there’s manufacturer point of view and a racing car customer point of view.

[sollitt]

And in the end for manufacturer it is important also to defeat its own privateers. It's a question of credit - an ordinary privateer must not defeat the manufacturer. It might well be the case in respect of manufacturers attitudes presently but it hasn't always been so and it's not universal thinking across all motorsport.
A classic example of how it could/should work is Aussie V8 Supercars. The factory supports their own team which contributes a significant amount of the R&D but each brand is backed up by a number of other 'private' teams and the manufacturer exercises bragging rights regardless of which team wins.
I'm sure it's the same in many other touring car championships throughout the world and used to be the case with rallying.

[janvanvurpa]

It might well be the case in respect of manufacturers attitudes presently but it hasn't always been so and it's not universal thinking across all motorsport.
A classic example of how it could/should work is Aussie V8 Supercars. The factory supports their own team which contributes a significant amount of the R&D but each brand is backed up by a number of other 'private' teams and the manufacturer exercises bragging rights regardless of which team wins.
I'm sure it's the same in many other touring car championships throughout the world and used to be the case with rallying.


I see your point and its inarguable that if a Ford winsd , Ford gets to blow their horn..

But Mirek's point is that NOW, the 2 MFGs who have been in WRC look at the whole damn thing as one big carefully tailored music video aimed at "that all important demographic: 12-26 year old male VIEWERS" That's why its vital to have 23 year old boys in WRC seats. And silly baseball hats. And coverage that is barely distinguisable from a 14 year old playing him little game Boy or whatever....

You don't really except a 14 year old pimple squeezing to recall for more than 10 seconds more than 4 names do you????

Shirley, you jest.

[sollitt]

You're right of course John. What was I thinking?

[Mirek]

One of the problems I can see is that through the years manufacturers keep joining into bigger and bigger corporations which just logically makes number of possible manufacturer entrants lower and lower. If let's say 10% of manufacturers are interested in our sport, it's in overall numbers way less now than thirty years a go when it was already way less than sixty years a go...

[OldF]

I also don't agree with making all cars using same standard components. That's no longer a manufacturer competition. It can be done for some cup to make numbers of entrants but not more.

I don’t like that either although I’ve said that I was hoping for a single source engine for R4T. Dampers and brakes are anyway acquired from elsewhere and I could live with a two-manufacturer source for the gearbox and rear differential. But the engine IMO is the soul of the car so it should be original.


For me the way to make the sport cheaper is to cancel any homologations completely. Just make clear simple rules and let anyone build whatever he wants. But this is what manufacturers will never allow to happen so again just an utopia.

This is what I’ve been dreaming about already for some time and I recall I’ve posted something like that sometimes. During the group an era many parts were free and I’m convinced that by regulations this could be done and still keep the costs down. The manufacturers wouldn’t like this at least in WRC but in regional and national championships this could maybe work.

Nowadays with the group R regulations everything has to be homologated, even dampers and springs that are still free in group N.


One of the problems I can see is that through the years manufacturers keep joining into bigger and bigger corporations which just logically makes number of possible manufacturer entrants lower and lower. If let's say 10% of manufacturers are interested in our sport, it's in overall numbers way less now than thirty years a go when it was already way less than sixty years a go...

And a lot of manufacturers that don’t even exist anymore.

[navtheace]

Rallying has to go back to GpA and GpN. That way the rally car follows the road car for driven wheels, bodywork, engine and induction.

Privateers can then build their own cars.

world rally car, S2000 etc do no allow this. GpA and GpN allows anyone to repair bodywork easily as it is road car bodywork.

[tfp]

Rallying has to go back to GpA and GpN. That way the rally car follows the road car for driven wheels, bodywork, engine and induction.

Privateers can then build their own cars.

world rally car, S2000 etc do no allow this. GpA and GpN allows anyone to repair bodywork easily as it is road car bodywork.

If there was an accident, the drivers could rob panels and things from the road cars between stages :D

[Barreis]

Should we see any of the live streams this season after WRC promotor is gone with the wind?!

[Zeakiwi]

Is there any bailout money left for the WRC ?

[N.O.T]

Should we see any of the live streams this season after WRC promotor is gone with the wind?!

North One is not just 1 person...

[Barreis]

What's the real story about ISC and North One?! Nobody know.

[AndyRAC]

What's the real story about ISC and North One?! Nobody know.

It's complicated, as ISC still exists as a company......

[Barreis]

Like in relationships: it's complicated... :D

[navtheace]

If there was an accident, the drivers could rob panels and things from the road cars between stages :D

Off the stages too, with GpA and GpN, you were able to easily repair bodywork and cheaply by using the same road car parts.

Look at how it is with Impreza, Focus, Fiesta etc WRC or S2000 cars.

The body panels have to come from the manufacturer works team at a high cost and special delivery to where you are in the world. Total nonsense and this is the main reason why bodykitting from the standard road car bodywork has to stop in rallying.

[Brother John]

First I have to say "I am happy with all the news for WRC 2012".
Yet we must not forget that we do not know what happened with the economy for other important things in the WRC!
Here I think about the organizers of the rallies, will they get everything ready financially?
Many companies and politicians have currently other things in their heads than to use the money to be a sponsor for the sport.
No one knows what awaits us off in 2012 and later with the world economy and Europe!
We will see what will happen and hopefully we will not get into trouble themselves privately.

[Plan9]

First I have to say "I am happy with all the news for WRC 2012".
Yet we must not forget that we do not know what happened with the economy for other important things in the WRC!
Here I think about the organizers of the rallies, will they get everything ready financially?
Many companies and politicians have currently other things in their heads than to use the money to be a sponsor for the sport.
No one knows what awaits us off in 2012 and later with the world economy and Europe!
We will see what will happen and hopefully we will not get into trouble themselves privately.

You are right! I am worried that Ford & Mini will not be able to afford their programs for the reason you just mentioned (the cars are looking pretty bereft of sponsorship).

I would have to think that any rally driver dependent on sponsorship would be pretty concerned about a double dip recession in the coming months.

[AndyRAC]

In these financial times – one of the first things to go is sponsorship/ marketing – and companies that still have sponsorship want maximum bang for their buck. Is the WRC/ Rallying delivering this? It’s far easier to put it into circuit racing....
I’m interested what the new Ford deal is – is it more money?, Are they having more than a say in the running of the team?

[Brother John]

In these financial times – one of the first things to go is sponsorship/ marketing – and companies that still have sponsorship want maximum bang for their buck. Is the WRC/ Rallying delivering this? It’s far easier to put it into circuit racing....
I’m interested what the new Ford deal is – is it more money?, Are they having more than a say in the running of the team?

And what about the organizers of the rallies? We saw in the IRC this year already several rallies disappear.
With my work I see also many festivals that will disappear next year. :confused:

[Brother John]

http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/140344-prodrive-mini-wrc-66.html#post994390

As we see, and some forum members finally beginning to understand the future of WRC rallies.
It does not look good and it will definitely not improve.
Two + two semi-factory rally teams will run the WRC 2012. Where does it end?

[MikeD]

http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/140344-prodrive-mini-wrc-66.html#post994390

As we see, and some forum members finally beginning to understand the future of WRC rallies.
It does not look good and it will definitely not improve.
Two + two semi-factory rally teams will run the WRC 2012. Where does it end?

Could it perhaps be that WRC with its roots in Europe and its core fanbase in Europe is facing an extra tough challenge in a time where we will have a recession or maybe even a depression in Europe over maybe the next 5-10 years? (ref. to latest report from UBS).

Below is a comparision between WRC, F1 and MotoGP regarding the expansion of where it has had its venues over the last 10 years.

In the year 2000 Formula 1 had 11 out of 17 races in Europe = 65%
In 2012 Formula 1 will have 8 out of 20 races in Europe = 40%
In the year 2014 Formula 1 is expected to have 5 out of 20 races in Europe = 25%

In the year 2002 MotoGP had 10 out of 16 races in Europe = 63%
In 2012 MotoGP will have 12 out of 18 races in Europe = 67%

In the year 2000 WRC had 10 out of 14 rallies in Europe = 71%
In 2012 WRC will have 9 out of 13 rallies in Europe = 69%

As you can see from the numbers above then F1 has reacted to the way the world economy is going and where the manufacturers want to sell cars - and where sponsors want their exposure.

MotoGP looks at the moment as the World Championship that struggles the most with only 12 factury bikes next year. In 2010 Yamaha won all 3 titles and yet they couldn't even attract a single sponsor for the 2011 season. Talk about having a crisis in the sport. Some people in sport jokes that's it's no longer a World championship but a "4 country cup" between Italy, Spain, USA and Australia.

WRC and MotoGP are both struggeling massively with sponsors and TV rights. The exposure is less every year and when I look at the 4 venues that WRC have chose outside Europe one has to wonder why there isn't a rally in China, in Brazil, in Russia or in India. These are the countries where manufacturers want their exposure and where new sponsors could be intruduced to the sport.

[Sulland]

There are basically two types of rallyfans:
1: those where the cars and tech development is the most facinating and important
2: those where the drivers ability to master the cars is the most facinating and important! Differnt cars should match eachother, so the driver is the decisive factor.

Those two groups have problems agreeing on the future of rallying. One of the facts of life!
Lets just agree to disagree, and hope both groups will enjoy the future!

[N.O.T]

There are basically two types of rallyfans:
1: those where the cars and tech development is the most facinating and important
2: those where the drivers ability to master the cars is the most facinating and important! Differnt cars should match eachother, so the driver is the decisive factor.

Those two groups have problems agreeing on the future of rallying. One of the facts of life!
Lets just agree to disagree, and hope both groups will enjoy the future!

and the Brain-dead who just see the ending number of entry lists...count the no of WRCs and S2000 and they are happy if they are high enough.... nobodies and a waste of space.

[raybak]

Is there something wrong with me, I have been agreeing with N.O.T. too much lately :(

Ray

[N.O.T]

that is how brain washing works...if someones opinion is everywhere (and in my case if it is backed-up) you start thinking if the person has a point or not at the end....

[OldF]

I wouldn’t count my self either of them. I’m a little bit of a tech freak and interesting how things works (not only automotive technical things) and what can be done by the rules. On the other hand I’m also interested in the driver’s different driving styles and how they get their max speed.

The group that cannot agree about how the future would like, are the manufacturers. Once read in “Vauhdin Maailma” an interview of the four manufacturer present at that time in WRC. Everyone had a different opinion what should be done and what should be allowed etc.

[AndyRAC]

I wouldn’t count my self either of them. I’m a little bit of a tech freak and interesting how things works (not only automotive technical things) and what can be done by the rules. On the other hand I’m also interested in the driver’s different driving styles and how they get their max speed.

The group that cannot agree about how the future would like, are the manufacturers. Once read in “Vauhdin Maailma” an interview of the four manufacturer present at that time in WRC. Everyone had a different opinion what should be done and what should be allowed etc.

Time for the FiA to decide what is better for the WRC, not what's better for the Manufacturers - they've led us down a blind alley.

[OldF]

I can agree with that. If the manufacturers can’t agree what is the best way to go, FIA should take the responsibility to decide how the tech regs and others are in the future.

On the other hand, it’s the manufacturers that make the championship. If they aren’t comfortable with the rules, they wont registered to WRC.

How to find the golden middle way to go?

PS Now it’s time for few hours of sleep. Have a Merry Christmas guys!

[Prisoner Monkeys]

I think the first thing that needs to be done for the WRC is that the FIA needs to find a way to encourage new manufacturers to actually do full seasons. I remember when we used to have half a dozen manufacturers, but then they started dropping out and doing half-seasons. Now we've only got two and a half (MINI don't have the budget for a full works campaign) and it's pretty sad. Hopefully some way can be found to get MINI and Volkswagen in full-time. But part of me suspects that they're waiting for Loeb to go before committing to a full program so that they actually have a chance.

I was very encouraged when I saw the story about Argentina expanding its route for 2012, especially since Jean Todt favours it. I have a copy of Automobile Year 1981-82 lying around, and I was leafing through it the other day when I noticed that the shortest rally in 1981 - Finland - was longer than the longest rallies we have today. Argentina was the longest in 1981, with 1370 competitive kilometres. These days we're lucky to get 1370 kilometres in total. And I still remember the epicly-long stages that we used to have, like the 45km Wellington Dam stage in Australia. The WRC today is watered-down and television-friendly, with routes decided by how far television crews can (/are willing to) travel. There was a time when every stage in the rally was only done once, not twice.

I think I'd also like to see the calendar expand out. I'm glad that Monte Carlo is back, but I think the sport needs to push out. A rally in America and another in somewhere like India might be a good place to start.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

I've decided that it's time to do something with the hours I have wasted on the Google Maps Pedometer. This is my proposal for a rally - the Rally of America, based in Denver, Colorado:

Day I - 150.70km
Stage 1/5 - Black Hawk (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5227773) (31.19km)
Stage 2/6 - Echo Lake (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5227774) (10.66km)
Stage 3/7 - Squaw Pass (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5227776) (11.80km)
Stage 4/8 - Windy Saddle (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5227777) (21.70km)

Day II - 162.66km
Stage 9/13 -Carriage Hills (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5227779) (11.05km)
Stage 10/14 - Bald Mountain (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5227781) (22.84km)
Stage 11/15 - Switzerland Trail (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5227784) (27.29km)
Stage 12/16 - Sugarloaf (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5227788) (20.15km)

Day III - 119.92km
Stage 17/21 - Dakota Hill (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5227790) (21.17km)
Stage 18/22 - Berthoud Falls (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5227794) (26.18km)
Stage 19/23 - Winter Park (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5227796) (14.72km)
Stage 20/24 - Epworth Lakes (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5227797) (18.93km)
Stage 25 (power stage) - King Flats (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5227802) (10.28km)

Total competitive distance - 433.28km

Okay, so it's not perfect. I don't live in Denver, so I don't know the roads. And access to some of them might be a little difficult. But I think it would make for a fantastic high-speed gravel and low-speed tarmac event, and if it were run at the right time of the year, some of the higher-altitude stages could be run in snowy conditions.

PS - Tried to edit this into my last post, but couldn't do it. Apologies for the double-post.

[BDunnell]

The WRC today is watered-down and television-friendly, with routes decided by how far television crews can (/are willing to) travel. There was a time when every stage in the rally was only done once, not twice.

And yet television — in the shape of major terrestrial channels, i.e. those with by far the biggest national audience shares — has never been less interested in the WRC. Maybe the way in which rallies have ceased now to be 'events', in the way that the RAC Rally used to be a big national 'event' in the UK, is partly to blame for this.

[danon]

Two people walking along the road.
Approaching a downhill one of them start crying.
Approaching an uphill the same one start laughing.
His fella asked him - why are you laughing walking uphill?
He replied him - 'cause after the ascent I know a descent is coming.

The diagram vary UP and DOWN ad infinitum...

The optimist sees the future bright. The pessimist sees it dark.
The optimist sees a half full glass of water as a half filled one.
The pessimist sees it half empty.

I see the glass is being topped up...

[tfp]

Two people walking along the road.
Approaching a downhill one of them start crying.
Approaching an uphill the same one start laughing.
His fella asked him - why are you laughing walking uphill?
He replied him - 'cause after the ascent I know a descent is coming.

The diagram vary UP and DOWN ad infinitum...

The optimist sees the future bright. The pessimist sees it dark.
The optimist sees a half full glass of water as a half filled one.
The pessimist sees it half empty.

I see the glass is being topped up...

Not for Meeke :(

[danon]

When а door closes - another opens!

[Coach 2]

If we are to discuss the future of the rally, I think we must distinguish between what is best for the WRC, and what is best for the National Championships.
I do not think that what is best for the WRC, is also best for Nat. Chaps.
Regulations of the WRC must be adapted to what is best for most producers (most possible) and this is not necessarily what is best for most Nat.Chaps.
Most probable not. Which classes used for Nat.Chaps, must be adapted to the different countries' needs.

[BDunnell]

If we are to discuss the future of the rally, I think we must distinguish between what is best for the WRC, and what is best for the National Championships.
I do not think that what is best for the WRC, is also best for Nat. Chaps.
Regulations of the WRC must be adapted to what is best for most producers (most possible) and this is not necessarily what is best for most Nat.Chaps.
Most probable not. Which classes used for Nat.Chaps, must be adapted to the different countries' needs.

The fact remains, though, that national championships have always been at their most successful when they have run to the same regulations as the World Championship. After all, most spectators naturally want to see those cars. A national series running other, 'inferior' equipment is not going to be viewed as something worth watching. I am also of the view that the FIA, in determining technical regulations — and especially in seeking to keep costs down in coming up with those regulations — should be seeking to act in the interests of the entire sport, and not just the FIA-sanctioned championships.

[Coach 2]

Do not think I'm absolutely agree with this assertion BDunnell, when the rally was by far the largest in Sweden, they had a completely separate regulations that were based on kg per hp and no international classes.
Some year in the 70's and 80's there were issued over 20 000 rally licenses. That is what I call successful.

[BDunnell]

Do not think I'm absolutely agree with this assertion BDunnell, when the rally was by far the largest in Sweden, they had a completely separate regulations that were based on kg per hp and no international classes.
Some year in the 70's and 80's there were issued over 20 000 rally licenses. That is what I call successful.

Very interesting. But surely the same equipment was used as on other series?

[Coach 2]

No, I do not think so BDunnell. But let us not discuss the old regulations in Sweden, but what should be done in different nationale championships.
If, for example, one country choose to have N4 as top class, it should be allowed to upgrade the older models so they become competitive with newer models.
Example: Evo 7 and 8 should be allowed to mount the Evo 9 engine.
I do not think this will have major effects on who will win, but what I think is not important. But as long as those who will participate thinks they have a better chance of winning if they have as much hp as the so-called best in class, even if they have an older car, the number of participants in this class will hopefully increase.
It is very important to give those with less money, the feeling of being able to win.

[Coach 2]

To make things clearer.
I know that such regulations exist in some countries already, but it does not seem that what works in one country are automatically tried in other countries.
I think that's a shame.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

I think the WRC needs to get some more rallies going. I know the calendar was scaled back from sixteen events to thirteen over concerns about rising costs, but I think the sport has suffered a little bit because of it, largely because the traditional rallies are the only ones being run, so it gets a little stagnant when the sport should be growing. A rally in America would be good, probably somewhere in the Rocky Mountains. Denver in Colorado or Rapid City in South Dakota would be good choices; a quick look on Google Maps shows there are some great-looking roads up in the mountains. I also think that India would be another good choice, possibly based in Goa. And a new event in Europe probably wouldn't hurt, either. Maybe an event in Austria or Russia. The IRC has demonstrated that it is easy to get these events up and running, and even if the event has to be a candidate for a year or two, I think the growth of the sport is important.

[Franky]

I think rallying in India is too big of a risk considering how mad the driving culture there is.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

The Indians have their own rally championship:

Indian National Rally Championship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Rally_Championship)

It was started back in 1988. So there's obviously some kind of control there - I doubt a rally in India would play out like the 1999 China Rally when no-one told the locals that rally cars would be coming through.

[RobertS]

And a new event in Europe probably wouldn't hurt, either. Maybe an event in Austria
+1 !
A 'new Alpenfahrt' rallye on those beautiful roads...

[Prisoner Monkeys]

A 'new Alpenfahrt' rallye on those beautiful roads...
Just having a quick play around with the Google Maps Pedometer shows there is some fantastic stuff in Austria that could be used for rallying. Like this (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5230103), twenty-six kilometres near the Slovenian border; or this (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5230119), twelve kilometres of undulations in Voralberg. Although not being Austrian, I must confess that I don't really know how appropriate the roads would be.

I imagine that a Rally of Austria - no doubt sponsored by Red Bull - would be a kind of Monte Carlo-Finland hybrid, with fast tarmac roads at lower altitudes and twisty gravel stages covered in snow at higher altitudes.

[RobertS]

Just having a quick play around with the Google Maps Pedometer shows there is some fantastic stuff in Austria that could be used for rallying. Like this (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5230103), twenty-six kilometres near the Slovenian border; or this (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5230119), twelve kilometres of undulations in Voralberg. Although not being Austrian, I must confess that I don't really know how appropriate the roads would be.

I imagine that a Rally of Austria - no doubt sponsored by Red Bull - would be a kind of Monte Carlo-Finland hybrid, with fast tarmac roads at lower altitudes and twisty gravel stages covered in snow at higher altitudes.

Austria - whenever...for example a possible good season-start: Monte, 'new Alpenfahrt', Sweden

Furthermore this is the heart of Europe, a 'fair-distance' for most of the traveling fans ;)

Few 'atmospheric-shots' from the old times >

1973
Imagedatabase (http://www.mcklein-imagedatabase.com/imagedatabase/index.php?index=12&idb_cmd=show_collection&idb_collection_id=320&idb_page=9#)

1972
Imagedatabase (http://www.mcklein-imagedatabase.com/imagedatabase/index.php?index=12&idb_cmd=show_collection&idb_collection_id=319&idb_page=8#)

1971
Imagedatabase (http://www.mcklein-imagedatabase.com/imagedatabase/index.php?index=12&idb_cmd=show_collection&idb_collection_id=318&idb_page=6#)

1970
Imagedatabase (http://www.mcklein-imagedatabase.com/imagedatabase/index.php?index=12&idb_cmd=show_collection&idb_collection_id=317&idb_page=6#)

[darkstar]

cars will be dropped there with a helicopter ;)

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Nice that you want to show some ideas, but how do you get to the start of the stage on your first map you drew?
Well, for one, the stage would be run in reverse to the way I drew it (which is why I removed the mile markers). So the problem is not getting in, it's getting out. I imagine that this would be the last stage of the day, so the cars could regroup after the stage and be let through in groups, with the stage being suspended for a few minutes at a time (if that - with cars going at two-minute intervals, it could be possible to have a traffic control at the crossing, allowing the cars through one at a time with minimal danger).

Alternatively, I could just re-draw it like this (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5230721) and the problem is solved. But I never suggested it could be an actual stage - I was just using the pedometer to highlight how good some of the roads in Austria are for rallying. If I had the time (and, well, I do), I could probably draw up a twenty-odd stage rally with a proper length and access and everything a reasonable distance from the rally base.

[Brother John]

I wish you a happy and healthy 2012.
Jag önskar dig en glad och frisk 2012.
Ik wens jullie een voorspoedig en gezond 2012.

[Sulland]

Just having a quick play around with the Google Maps Pedometer shows there is some fantastic stuff in Austria that could be used for rallying. Like this (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5230103), twenty-six kilometres near the Slovenian border; or this (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5230119), twelve kilometres of undulations in Voralberg. Although not being Austrian, I must confess that I don't really know how appropriate the roads would be.

I imagine that a Rally of Austria - no doubt sponsored by Red Bull - would be a kind of Monte Carlo-Finland hybrid, with fast tarmac roads at lower altitudes and twisty gravel stages covered in snow at higher altitudes.

Was it not a way that we could fly recce in 3D through the terrain ? Feel I have seen this somewhere.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

You're probably thinking of Google Earth.

Although the pedometer does have a topographical map fucntion. If you know how to read it, you can visualise the terrain.

[Brother John]

The year has just begun, and even here on the Forem we already read a lot of bad news in different threads.
And many well-known board members, we almost never see them here and thy never write something again?

[AndyRAC]

At the moment there is so much 'up in the air' which is causing confusion, etc Why would businesses, sponsors, etc sign up when there is still no word/news on the Global Promoter.

Saying that, in times past, there wasn't a Promoter...and the sport didn't do too badly.

[Brother John]

At the moment there is so much 'up in the air' which is causing confusion, etc Why would businesses, sponsors, etc sign up when there is still no word/news on the Global Promoter.

Saying that, in times past, there wasn't a Promoter...and the sport didn't do too badly.

Today there is more bad news, it will not improve following month´s.
I do not understand that many here do not understand what's currently happening in the world.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Something struck me as weird today: why doesn't Rallye Deutchland include a lap (or near lap) of the Nurburgring as a stage? It's only 70km from Trier; I think that if the Nordschleife was the Power Stage, it would be a boost for both rallying and the circuit (which needs all the help it can get). The return of world-class motorsport to the circuit (in addition to the twenty-four hour race) would be a massive boon.

[Mirek]

I think that no such average speed limit exists in WRC now. The decision about stage safety is up to FIA stewards.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Yeah, Ouninpohja was cut from Rally Finland for the same reason. But, the 'Ring is a racing circuit, so it's much more controlled than a forestry road. Maybe the FIA would be agreeable.

[Hartusvuori]

Yeah, Ouninpohja was cut from Rally Finland for the same reason. But, the 'Ring is a racing circuit, so it's much more controlled than a forestry road. Maybe the FIA would be agreeable.

Ouninpohja was cut half for the reason, not cut from Rally Finland. I think the rule for 130 km/h max average dissappeared already 2-3 years ago, and now it is like Mirek said up to FIA stewards to decide case by case.

[Sulland]

Says here rule was changed in 2004, but not sure
Rally Finland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rally_Finland)

[Steve Boyd]

Use of "The Ring" might make the WRC cars look very silly. Genearlly they are only geared for around 180km/h maximum. GpN cars could be capable of 210km/h or more and may well beat the WRC cars on the circuit. WRC Teams would not want to homologate different transmissions for a stage used once a year so it isn't going to happen, even though it's a great idea.

[Mirek]

WRC cars have higher top speed. The numbers You say are for S2000 (usually 165-190 km/h). Octavia and Fabia WRC had top speed around 200-220 km/h depending on gearing. If I remember right Roman Kresta said his Focus 05 had top speed 217 km/h in NORF and I think in Sweden C4 was capable of something like 230 km/h. I don't know gearing of new cars but I guess the top speed is around 200 km/h.

[Antony Warmbold]

WRC cars have higher top speed. The numbers You say are for S2000 (usually 165-190 km/h). Octavia and Fabia WRC had top speed around 200-220 km/h depending on gearing. If I remember right Roman Kresta said his Focus 05 had top speed 217 km/h in NORF and I think in Sweden C4 was capable of something like 230 km/h. I don't know gearing of new cars but I guess the top speed is around 200 km/h.

We had a top speed of between 200 and 205km/h in Finland. I think in Finland the fastest car I have ever seen was Bosse in the 307 with 209...or was it Lindholm with 211?? Anybody remember?

[Barreis]

I think it was 232km/h on Hirvonen's car but don't remember where. Any news, Antony?

[mm1]

And on Nring with a street Evo you have places where you can top 250km/h. So a top spec rally car will be on it`s limiter for a long time there.

[donlorean]

Top speed in NORF in old WRC cars was 200-205km/h like someone said and last year in new cars top speed´s was between 178(Mini)-190(Fiesta) if I remember right... So new cars are pit slower than old ones... Fastest car was Juha Salo Mitsu Evo X R4/195km/h... These are radar results from SS2 Laukaa by finnish motorsport magazine Vauhdin Maailma...

[Mirek]

Top speed in NORF in old WRC cars was 200-205km/h like someone said and last year in new cars top speed´s was between 178(Mini)-190(Fiesta) if I remember right... So new cars are pit slower than old ones... Fastest car was Juha Salo Mitsu Evo X R4/195km/h... These are radar results from SS2 Laukaa by finnish motorsport magazine Vauhdin Maailma...

Those results were very strange and discussed here. There were some things which were clearly wrong - like Fiesta R2 can't have a higher speed on a straight than S2000 car which is not in RPM limiter.

[donlorean]

Those results were very strange and discussed here. There were some things which were clearly wrong - like Fiesta R2 can't have a higher speed on a straight than S2000 car which is not in RPM limiter.

I have to check those R2 and S2000 top speeds but those WRC speeds was like I told... That place where they were with radar is 1 km straight and little down hill so every car suppose to be in rev limiter or close... They are measuring those top speeds there every time when that SS is driven...

[Mirek]

If I remember right... Fabia S2000 doesn't have so short gearbox to have top speed only 164-165. AFAIK the shortest is little over 170 km/h (but I would expect long gearbox at least in works car of Juho - for example in Barum or Ypres they used top speed around 182-184), so either the measurement was wrong or it was not in rpm limiter. In second case the measurement again must be wrong because Fabia not in limiter can't have lesser speed than R2 (something like 172 reported). That is just impossible.

[donlorean]

They use calibrated radar so I don't think that measuring was wrong... And like I said, they have done it many years... So I think that there is some other reason like driver/puncture/technical etc... That 172km/h from R2 Fiesta sounds quite right as far as I know... Basically it doesn't matter if top speed is 190 or 205km/h. More important in NORF(and most of the rallies also) is acceleration between 80-150km/h...

[Brother John]

Are the last 10 posts in this thread at home?

[Mirek]

They use calibrated radar so I don't think that measuring was wrong... And like I said, they have done it many years... So I think that there is some other reason like driver/puncture/technical etc... That 172km/h from R2 Fiesta sounds quite right as far as I know... Basically it doesn't matter if top speed is 190 or 205km/h. More important in NORF(and most of the rallies also) is acceleration between 80-150km/h...

I agree with Your conclusion about importance of acceleration but still I don't believe those results. Numbers like 165 km/h were there for all top S2000 cars while all top R2 cars had more. That is purely wrong for reasons I already said. It is impossible that all Hänninen, Tänak, Prokop etc. made a mistake in shifting/had puncture etc. in same place and if they all were on rpm limiter, they must have had higher top speed than indicated in the article.

[donlorean]

Are the last 10 posts in this thread at home?

Sorry...

[Brother John]

Sorry...

@donlorean, Thanks for your answer.
I hope that in future I can move posts to the correct Thread.

[Mark]

Don't put off to the future what you can do now...

[OldF]

We had a top speed of between 200 and 205km/h in Finland. I think in Finland the fastest car I have ever seen was Bosse in the 307 with 209...or was it Lindholm with 211?? Anybody remember?


It was Sebastian Lindholm, 211 km/h.

Top speed discussion made earlier.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/142146-r4-vs-s2000-2.html#post959213

[Brother John]

I think you are all still too positive for the future of rally if you read all this bad news on different threads here.
I can see it as the start of a big mess this year.


1) Real news on WRC.com???
2) website MC still no publishing of the entry lists!!!

and more and more and more about rallys and drivers on different places here.
Hopefully we get to see a bit this year.

[EightGear]

I'm quite certain there will be a solution for both the website and the entrylist soon.
The entrylist isn't there yet just because they're French and too busy drinking wine, and I think the website will be bought by the new promotors (which aren't there yet af course, but something with such importance as a website will be solved quickly I think).

[Brother John]

Still, we see currently bad news in the rally world.
Yes I can see still a big mess this year and certainly in the wrc.

[navtheace]

It's time for a new start with rallying now.

1. Cancel body kitting - Road car bodywork only
2. No changes to driven wheels - As the road car is sold
3. No changes on engine to add turbo - Only if road car has it

[gloomyDAY]

WRC is dead...

Manufacturers avoid the sport like the plague, same ol' cast and story, and now nobody wants to broadcast the events.

[A FONDO]

It's time for a new start with rallying now.

1. Cancel body kitting - Road car bodywork only
2. No changes to driven wheels - As the road car is sold
3. No changes on engine to add turbo - Only if road car has it
Sounds fantastic but unfortunately these times are already gone, I sadly think its forever..... its more expensive for manufacturers and also they aim to promote mass city cars to larger target group than luxury sport models for fans.

[navtheace]

Why have they gone? If that is the rules, we will see the likes of Citroen, M Sport, Subaru/Toyota, Honda, Hyundai/kia, VW see this opportunity to promote what their road cars are.

if the wrc has to go 2WD then so be it.

Lets just see what happens, nothing discussed on here will make a difference.

[Barreis]

In group A era tuners could Build car and that was it. Now only works cars are available, why?

[N.O.T]

as long as WRC is under the governing body of the FIA there is no hope...

When things start to get momentum (VW announcement, mini involvement, Toyota thinking of entering some time ago, Subaru also ) the FIA will do something to hold things back because they want motorsport fans hooked to F1 and their ladyboys...

They turned F1 into a circus where fans refer to drivers with initials, they care about the ladyboy drivers personal life like they are pop stars and turned the public into stupid retarded fanboys fighting who for the ladyboys they support like they are their boyfriends...

the future of WRC is the one the FIA will allow it to be...

[Francis44]

It's time for a new start with rallying now.

1. Cancel body kitting - Road car bodywork only
2. No changes to driven wheels - As the road car is sold
3. No changes on engine to add turbo - Only if road car has it

Are you mad?!

What about the excitement of watching a rally live?! I see around here most are worried about TV shows and manufacteur numbers but dont forget this is a sport to be experienced live, we need loud, crazy fast cars.

[sollitt]

It's time for a new start with rallying now.

1. Cancel body kitting - Road car bodywork only
2. No changes to driven wheels - As the road car is sold
3. No changes on engine to add turbo - Only if road car has it

This would surely be the death of the WRC. Whilst we might mostly agree that the technical freedoms manufacturers have enjoyed have driven the costs too high for most to participate, the sport still needs to be attractive to both watch and compete in.
Rally cars should look and sound exciting, and they need to go well. Production based categories simply don't do it.

[tfp]

It's time for a new start with rallying now.

1. Cancel body kitting - Road car bodywork only
2. No changes to driven wheels - As the road car is sold
3. No changes on engine to add turbo - Only if road car has it

:up: I agree this is the way it needs to go, while Sollit correctly points out we need mentally fast cars on the stages, realistically the costs of building the cars has to come down so we can have more even, close competition, and not another complete domination of the manu championship like citroen in 2010.


In group A era tuners could Build car and that was it. Now only works cars are available, why?

Exactly, nowadays if you want to compete, you have no choice BUT to go to citroen or M sport.


as long as WRC is under the governing body of the FIA there is no hope...

When things start to get momentum (VW announcement, mini involvement, Toyota thinking of entering some time ago, Subaru also ) the FIA will do something to hold things back because they want motorsport fans hooked to F1 and their ladyboys...

They turned F1 into a circus where fans refer to drivers with initials, they care about the ladyboy drivers personal life like they are pop stars and turned the public into stupid retarded fanboys fighting who for the ladyboys they support like they are their boyfriends...

the future of WRC is the one the FIA will allow it to be...

Lol :D
Your first and last comments are correct, the FIA have failed all of us rally fans, and another organiser should be brought in. But who? The fact that the FIA have no competition mean they can do what ever the hell they want with the series, whether its good for the sport or not.

I would say they should stick to F1, but judging by this thread
http://www.motorsportforums.com/f1/150491-example-how-terrible-sky-going-f1.html
in the F1 section, theyre not exactly happy customers either, thanks to FIA and "supremo" ecclestone.

Well done FIA :mad:

[sollitt]

... realistically the costs of building the cars has to come down so we can have more even, close competition, and not another complete domination of the manu championship like citroen in 2010. You can bring the costs of the car down without completely throwing the baby out the window. Rallying is about innovation and inventiveness. It is also an exciting form of motor racing and cars should look and sound like racing cars.
Dumb it down to a production category and nobody will come. National series which have gone this way are testament to that.

In reality, do you know that it is the cost of engineering and production of the car which deters manufacturers, or is it the cost of infrastructure, manpower, compliance and logistics which won't reduce regardless of the formula?
What assurances are there that a reduction in the cost of the car will bring a wider entry?

I'm not saying nothing should change, but if you think bland, production based formulae are the panacea you are really on a different planet.

[skarderud]

The biggest handicap moneywise is the organisasion, not the cars. I think todays formula is good, but when the main goal is to earn lots of money, then it has to be to much expensive. If FIA really wanted, they could really well make the rules that they have to use one kind of gearbox, and one kind of diffs. But citroen and Ford didn't wan't that, so that's not happen. So citroen, Ford and FIA is the people to blame. It is no problem to make bodykits in fiberglass to a decent price, to the same price as a standard part, it just that simple that noone of the earlier mention want's that! They wanna earn lots of money!
The solution is simple, keep todays formula, skip the homologation rules, and put in some rules how many people that can work in a team and how much single parts can cost. Then its open for private entries to build cars, rebuild existing parts, maintance the car with own solutions, and then still be competitive in sensible costs.

[navtheace]

This would surely be the death of the WRC. Whilst we might mostly agree that the technical freedoms manufacturers have enjoyed have driven the costs too high for most to participate, the sport still needs to be attractive to both watch and compete in.
Rally cars should look and sound exciting, and they need to go well. Production based categories simply don't do it.

R4 Impreza with 34mm or 36mm would be attractive.
As would the many FWD turbo petrol cars on the road like Golf's.

Example here of Impreza in USA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVFkGp0e35Q&sns=fb

Taking the rules right back (away from Citroen and M Sport dictating with specialist build cars) will be the best thing for the WRC. Just like GpA did after GpB. Then watch things build nicely.

[Mirek]

Do You really believe that making rules back to gr.A days would make manufacturers willing to spent billions on road-going rallycars which with the exception of the two Japanese died all over the planet? The answer is no, sorry. Things have changed.

[tfp]

You can bring the costs of the car down without completely throwing the baby out the window. Rallying is about innovation and inventiveness. It is also an exciting form of motor racing and cars should look and sound like racing cars.
Dumb it down to a production category and nobody will come. National series which have gone this way are testament to that.

In reality, do you know that it is the cost of engineering and production of the car which deters manufacturers, or is it the cost of infrastructure, manpower, compliance and logistics which won't reduce regardless of the formula?
What assurances are there that a reduction in the cost of the car will bring a wider entry?

I'm not saying nothing should change, but if you think bland, production based formulae are the panacea you are really on a different planet.

Not on a different planet, I just have a different opinion to you, thats all ;)

[N.O.T]

Why you take seriously posts from Navtheace and plan9 ??? these guys are a bit strange, posting random stuff without any reason behind them...leave them alone to short their heads out....don't argue...

[Allyc85]

It's time for a new start with rallying now.

1. Cancel body kitting - Road car bodywork only
2. No changes to driven wheels - As the road car is sold
3. No changes on engine to add turbo - Only if road car has it

And what kind of engine cc limit? As if for example the WRC truned into a load of R3 DS3s then even less people would watch and it really would be the death of the sport!

[MJW]

We have all heard how Jean Todt wants to return to the old days with rallying, with longer linear routes and move away from the cloverleaf format which lets face it was the David Richards ISC formula. Now Jean Todt has not had it all his own way, with the current manufacturers (especially Ford?) favouring the paddock club type service park arrangements. A lot of us thought its going to get messy, with no doubt the manufacturers threatening to quit unless they have it their way. Now with the Antonov episode, NOS in administration, Eurosport seemingly gone cold (well they do have a vested interest in IRC) if FIA WRC dies as a championship will it be a convenient ?

What's the betting on a "new WRC" for teams / privateers being launched, quite possibly a soft merger with IRC so that Monte is in, that way a teams cup, non manufacturer powerbased championship will never threaten F1, and can live in the spirit of Jean Todt's WRC era, i.e. long routes, night stages, less service park paddock etc.

Is the current crisis the end game in killing off everything the DR era stood for?
I wonder if the future premier rally series will have Monte Carlo, Corsica, and San Remo as rounds?
Funny how this all happened after the jewel in the crown event of Monte finished.
In hindsight maybe this should have been posted in rally future media thread - if so can a moderator please move it?

[Mirek]

And what kind of engine cc limit? As if for example the WRC truned into a load of R3 DS3s then even less people would watch and it really would be the death of the sport!

In manufacturer competition it almost doesn't matter if the car is 1.0 FWD Toyota Aygo or the same car rebuild to two meters wide 3.0V6 RWD. Manufacturers will spend all their budget on it anyway.

[navtheace]

Do You really believe that making rules back to gr.A days would make manufacturers willing to spent billions on road-going rallycars which with the exception of the two Japanese died all over the planet? The answer is no, sorry. Things have changed.

It's called R categories. As in make them the only categories you can rally and manufacturers will not need to spend anything.

Rallying now has to adjust to the road cars manufacturers currently make, ie let R1, R2, R3, R4 and R-GT be the only categories for rallying and watch the manufacturers adjust themselves.

[Mirek]

It's called R categories. As in make them the only categories you can rally and manufacturers will not need to spend anything.

Rallying now has to adjust to the road cars manufacturers currently make, ie let R1, R2, R3, R4 and R-GT be the only categories for rallying and watch the manufacturers adjust themselves.

So again. You can build competitive R4 from two single cars in the world which are hardly more than last mohycans in a world which turned to another era. Any other manufacturer who would want to make something competitive against these two would have to spend billions in development, manufacturing, service, promotion, staff training etc. for a car which in current world can't make any profit and moreover makes problems with emission standards, corporate emission limits, too high fuel consumption. As a cherry on top of the cake is that most of the parts developed and manufactured for this car are useless for any other car. That's completely opposite to what manufacturers try - as much standardization across their portfolio as possible.

I agree that Your idea is nice but it's utopia in the year 2012. What must be found is real solution, not dreams.

[J4MIE]

Listening to Jean Todt's press conference in Monaco I thought it sounded really good and I really hope that his influence and attempts to get back to the "old" idea of rallying can come to fruition. I think the problem lies with the manufacturers and as we saw the comments from both Ford and Citroen about Monte being too long and having too many extra days which don't give anything extra for them in terms of extra exposure for the sake of it. I suppose I'd reluctantly have to agree with that, but again it is all down to the TV coverage to show the cars off on. The current issues really don't help, but if the teams were to get, say, 20% extra exposure on tv for an extra day of a rally then I hope they would think it would be worthwhile.

Certainly from my own personal (and purely selfish spectating) point of view, I would love for events to be longer with chances to go to watch more stages, and long for a "safari" type event. I was at the Classic Safari Rally last November and it was 2100km of stages (4000km total) in 10 days, and that was something very special indeed which will stay with me forever.

As for the cars, I don't mind too much what is used as long as it is NOT Group N, I have no time for them!! :s

[Barreis]

Only good thing in this whole situation is that there's no more Quesnell. :D

[tfp]

Only good thing in this whole situation is that there's no more Quesnell. :D

Hahaha! +1 :up:

[BDunnell]

Listening to Jean Todt's press conference in Monaco I thought it sounded really good and I really hope that his influence and attempts to get back to the "old" idea of rallying can come to fruition. I think the problem lies with the manufacturers and as we saw the comments from both Ford and Citroen about Monte being too long and having too many extra days which don't give anything extra for them in terms of extra exposure for the sake of it. I suppose I'd reluctantly have to agree with that, but again it is all down to the TV coverage to show the cars off on.

I too would agree with it, but largely on the grounds that the two extra days added very little to the challenge of the event. To me, if a rally is to be long it needs to have the stage mileage to match (and without too much repetition, too.)

[BDunnell]

You can bring the costs of the car down without completely throwing the baby out the window. Rallying is about innovation and inventiveness. It is also an exciting form of motor racing and cars should look and sound like racing cars.
Dumb it down to a production category and nobody will come. National series which have gone this way are testament to that.

In reality, do you know that it is the cost of engineering and production of the car which deters manufacturers, or is it the cost of infrastructure, manpower, compliance and logistics which won't reduce regardless of the formula?
What assurances are there that a reduction in the cost of the car will bring a wider entry?

I'm not saying nothing should change, but if you think bland, production based formulae are the panacea you are really on a different planet.

I couldn't agree more, though while pure production cars may be dull in rallying terms, I think there is a place for retaining the link between competition cars and production models through homologation. Group A, in itself, was not a bad formula.

[sollitt]

Agreed.

[navtheace]

Yes defo :)

GpA was an excellent formula. When it was around, no manufacturer complained about not being able to put on a body kit. They rallied what they sold as the road car.

[Mirek]

They complained and that's why WRC formula was created. It wasn't a whim of FIA.

It was in days when cars suitable for gr.A rules were ending their production with no successors - Escort Cosworth, Toyota Celica GT-Four or Lancia Delta Integrale.

If I remember right Ford and Peugeot were the main forces to support WRC - which turned to be one of the most successful formulas the rally world ever saw. In my opinion it later started to die not for cost reasons but for their ban in regional and national championships.

[Barreis]

Group A was much better then WRC. In Italy it was at least 10 tuners for making very good group A cars. 300 000 DEM (150 000euros) was excellent group A escort cosworth. Now nothing.

[Mirek]

Group A was much better then WRC. In Italy it was at least 10 tuners for making very good group A cars. 300 000 DEM (150 000euros) was excellent group A escort cosworth. Now nothing.

OK. Now tell me from which Ford You would build a gr.A car from in 1998? By that time Cossie was history and Ford didn't plan anything like that for the future. Development of Focus started many years before and I believe it was since the beginning developed as FWD only.

[Barreis]

From focus ST with 4wd. :D

[Mirek]

From focus ST with 4wd. :D

A serious answer, please.

You just don't see the causality. 4WD sport cars didn't disappear because gr.A was turned into WRC but vice versa. Gr.A disappeared because car makers were no longer interested in 4WD sport cars.

[Barreis]

Don't no but now it's so expensive top rallying.

[Mirek]

Don't no but now it's so expensive top rallying.

Yes, we all know that. But crying for good old days won't make it cheaper.

[Barreis]

Know that also.

[DonJippo]

Yes, we all know that. But crying for good old days won't make it cheaper.

Don't think it was that cheap at that time either, not everyone had that 300kDM or 150k€ as their pocket money.

[Steve Boyd]

A serious answer, please.

You just don't see the causality. 4WD sport cars didn't disappear because gr.A was turned into WRC but vice versa. Gr.A disappeared because car makers were no longer interested in 4WD sport cars.
Exactly right!
The cost to a manufacturer of the design & type approval of a road car with limited sales just so you could have a competitive rally car in the world championship was so high that Ford and the others said "no more". The WRC formula meant that the total cost to the car maker to compete in WRC is lower, even if each car might be a bit more expensive.
I've been around long enough to have seen this cycle happen before. When rallying started it was mostly privateers in standard cars. Then manufacturers got involved and started developing special parts. People complained & said it was too expensive, so homologation was introduced to make competitors use standard cars. Standard cars either broke or weren't quick enough & people said it's too expensive to make lots of standard cars with the parts you need to go rallying (homologation specials). The homologation rules were changed to allow limited production of special parts. This was too expensive, so GpB was introduced. This was too dangerous so they tried to go back to standard cars and we got back on the cycle again.
Top level rallying has always been expensive & people have always complained about the cost. They complained that BDA engines for Escorts were too expensive in the 70's. They complained that everything for Quattro's was too expensive in the 80's. I got bored & stopped listening then so I can't tell you what was too expensive in the 90's & 00's but people did complain so that's why we are where we are. People are still complaining, I guess they always will.

[BDunnell]

Yes, we all know that. But crying for good old days won't make it cheaper.

I believe some of the solutions to the WRC's problems are to be found in the past. By this I don't mean reverting to rear-wheel-drive, of course, but only if one looks at the modern WRC and sees something that can't possibly be improved upon is it possible to argue that things weren't better before. Most would argue that this simply isn't the case. Maybe, therefore, there are lessons to be drawn from times gone by?

[BDunnell]

Don't think it was that cheap at that time either, not everyone had that 300kDM or 150k€ as their pocket money.

Quite so.

[BDunnell]

Exactly right!
The cost to a manufacturer of the design & type approval of a road car with limited sales just so you could have a competitive rally car in the world championship was so high that Ford and the others said "no more". The WRC formula meant that the total cost to the car maker to compete in WRC is lower, even if each car might be a bit more expensive.
I've been around long enough to have seen this cycle happen before. When rallying started it was mostly privateers in standard cars. Then manufacturers got involved and started developing special parts. People complained & said it was too expensive, so homologation was introduced to make competitors use standard cars. Standard cars either broke or weren't quick enough & people said it's too expensive to make lots of standard cars with the parts you need to go rallying (homologation specials). The homologation rules were changed to allow limited production of special parts. This was too expensive, so GpB was introduced. This was too dangerous so they tried to go back to standard cars and we got back on the cycle again.
Top level rallying has always been expensive & people have always complained about the cost. They complained that BDA engines for Escorts were too expensive in the 70's. They complained that everything for Quattro's was too expensive in the 80's. I got bored & stopped listening then so I can't tell you what was too expensive in the 90's & 00's but people did complain so that's why we are where we are. People are still complaining, I guess they always will.

This is all very interesting, and I agree with much of it, but are you too not of the view that something, somewhere, has gone seriously wrong for rallying to have ended up in the situation in which it finds itself today? Given the breadth of your perspective, I'd be fascinated to hear your views on this.

[Barreis]

Don't think it was that cheap at that time either, not everyone had that 300kDM or 150k€ as their pocket money.

Now it's fortune to buy a car

[cali]

Now it's fortune to buy a car
The figures have changed but through inflation you almost get the same amount as it were back in the days. It's all about inflation ;) It's was expensive and still is ... numbers have changed but you get the same for the value

[BDunnell]

The figures have changed but through inflation you almost get the same amount as it were back in the days. It's all about inflation ;) It's was expensive and still is ... numbers have changed but you get the same for the value

In which case, why has any problem developed? Global economic circumstances do not provide the complete answer.

[Mirek]

Maybe I shall make some my statement so that it doesn't look I'm just arrogant type disagreeing with all :)

So, what can WRC offer to the audience?

Mind-blowing machinery? No for obvious reasons. In 2012 none can be astonished by a Fiesta with 300 Hp. For that it would have to be 1000 Hp strong but than we have the safety magic formula. I don't see much space for improvement here...

Adventure? No. Who can see any kind of adventure in just 1,5 hours of competing over nothing more than a common working period? Teams have luxurious service hospitalities, everyone sleeps in hotels. The feeling of adventure is definitely THE thing which appeals to the crowd in 21st century. There is plenty of space for improvement here. We need real stories at the end of the day not just a table with numbers. The audience has to find itself living the event with their heroes.

Events with unique character? No. Some events remain unique thanks to their nature but at least the format shall differ to allow event creating their own spirit. And we have too many same looking ones...

Spectacle? Yes, sure. I still can't believe why it is so difficult to sell so much action-packed images...

Stunning scenery? Yes, sure. Rallying and marathons have by far the biggest potential of all motorsport kinds in this matter.


Some other points...

Why the hell do we need a competition fuel? We use 5x more expensive fuel to make just an average power from engine with tiny restrictor. That doesn't make sense.

For what do we need homologations? To protect business of manufacturers or to make sport more safe or more fair? IMHO the first is right. A simple set of common rules would work way better for large majority of competitors. We don't need parts which cost ten times more just because they have the right marking on them.

Do we need to make cars more and more standardized and more and more ancient in comparison with stock machinery? No, motorsport needs to keep the engineering spirit. Allow everyone bring their own ideas and open the door to all those crazy inventors who fill Dakar, hill climbs etc.

The time showed that making cars simpler under current homologation rules is just a waste of time. What simpler can we bring to the top level of rallying than S2000? It's year 2012 for God's sake! The car is full packed of 1980' inventions and still expensive like hell. What will be next? A one liter FWD? A full factory shopping bag won't cost less , if You ask me...

Why do we need a special formula for world championship? To make it unique? But than why do we speak about cost? These two ideas are in complete contradiction. We can't make something cheaper if we limit the production to few single pieces. Did super hi-tech WRC (in comparison with 2012 ones) do bad in 2000? No, they did excellent. Did S2000 do bad? No, they did excellent. 300 pieces sold worldwide in some five years. Peugeot itself sold 100 pieces of 207! What common have these two cases? They were allowed everywhere. Is it accidental that WRC started to die after it was banned in regional and national championships? I believe it isn't...

[Steve Boyd]

As regards encouraging manufacturers to enter the sport at the top I don't think there's too much wrong with the current WRC formula. It's kept Citröen & Ford in and Mini & VW have joined (not withstanding the spat between BMW & Prodrive). The R1, R2 & R3 categories are beginning to be taken up at lower levels but the bit between them & WRC (R4, S2000 & 1.6T with different size restrictors) is a bit of a muddle, though that should clear with time.
I think the "standard style event" regulations of the recent past have taken away a lot of the romance & perceived challenge that the classic events used to have. It remains to be seen how events will evolve following Jean Todt's statements & how many complaints longer, tougher events will produce!
The key thing for me is media coverage and that must include free to air terrestrial TV. I don't believe that live TV is necessary. A well edited daily summary that tells the story would be better in my view. It works for the major cycling tours & worked for the RAC Rally in the days of BBC Top Gear Rally Report. If longer and tougher events with TV coverage can generate a feeling in the general population that rallying is something challenging & exciting then we will see another revival - but it will still be too expensive!

[cali]

My reply was strictly for "now it's a fortune to buy a car" comment. Back in the days the grass was greener mentality ...

But ofcourse there is more than that, nothing to argue about

[AndyRAC]

I've said it before, but my biggest bugbear with the current regs is if I want a Fiesta WRCar or a Mini WRCar, I have to go to M-Sport/ Prodrive. In the old GpA days, you could pick were you wanted to get your car from.

[BDunnell]

Is it accidental that WRC started to die after it was banned in regional and national championships? I believe it isn't...

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. I'd add: do we think it coincidental that, to me at least, the sport was strongest — whether in terms of driver talent, public interest in events, etc — when national/regional championships ran the same equipment at their top levels as did the world championship? This, I believe, is crucial.

The cost point, especially the comparison between 'then and now', I find most interesting. Of course, I appreciate the fact that rallying, especially top-level rallying, has never been a cheap business. But I don't believe this tells the full story, for, surely, there was a time (perhaps, one might say, before the advent of the Group B 'supercars') that relatively top-line machinery was available to a wider pool of drivers than are today's WRCars? Something, somewhere, has gone awry.

[BDunnell]

As regards encouraging manufacturers to enter the sport at the top I don't think there's too much wrong with the current WRC formula. It's kept Citröen & Ford in and Mini & VW have joined (not withstanding the spat between BMW & Prodrive).

A fair point, but I don't think it's been good for the sport as a whole. Certainly, regional and national championships have hardly thrived during this era.



I think the "standard style event" regulations of the recent past have taken away a lot of the romance & perceived challenge that the classic events used to have. It remains to be seen how events will evolve following Jean Todt's statements & how many complaints longer, tougher events will produce!

They have also taken away many opportunities for people to actually see rallies taking place. The disappearance of the RAC as we know it is a classic case in point.



The key thing for me is media coverage and that must include free to air terrestrial TV. I don't believe that live TV is necessary. A well edited daily summary that tells the story would be better in my view. It works for the major cycling tours & worked for the RAC Rally in the days of BBC Top Gear Rally Report. If longer and tougher events with TV coverage can generate a feeling in the general population that rallying is something challenging & exciting then we will see another revival - but it will still be too expensive!

It will, but at least each rally would again have a hope of becoming an event in the national sense.

[Sulland]

So why did S2000 become so popular?
Since it did something must have been right with that class.

In my book it is simple: it sound like a competition car, it looks like a competition car and moves like a competition car.
It is difficult to drive, and separates the best from the second best.

Hmm, sounds like a winner.

Learn from that when finalizing the R4T class regs.."....
One key here is standard ECU, so the manufacurers cant make their own classes of the same car.......

If they are able to score with that class and keep the price right, then we will get a real World Rally Car.

[Coach 2]

Is it accidental that WRC started to die after it was banned in regional and national championships? I believe it isn't...
Yes, I would say that it is.
I think they never should have been allowed in National Championships.

But as you started to say, I will not seem like someone who does not agree with someone else.
But when we criticize the FIA, we must remember that they depend on making regulations which lasts for some time, if they are to enable manufacturers to invest in a WRC car.
And what direction the world takes, when we talk about the economy, people's interest in sports, how good the various sports is to promote their sport, how environmental thinking etc etc etc are things FIA must guess the same way as stock speculators guessing when they buy shares. All share speculators think they are very smart, but we can probably conclude that not all is.
And make good explanations in after time, are extremely easy.

[BDunnell]

Yes, I would say that it is.
I think they never should have been allowed in National Championships.

How can national championships then be expected to flourish if, in terms of the cars used, they are distinctly second class?



But when we criticize the FIA, we must remember that they depend on making regulations which lasts for some time, if they are to enable manufacturers to invest in a WRC car.

They seem now to be most interested only in what goes on in the FIA-sanctioned championships rather than looking at the wider interests of the sports under their jurisdiction as a whole.

[sollitt]

GpA was an excellent formula. When it was around, no manufacturer complained about not being able to put on a body kit. They rallied what they sold as the road car. This is slightly misleading and not entirely correct.
The 'road car' was actually the commercialised version of the rally car. The manufacturers had no reason to complain about not being permitted to add a bodykit as, when this was wanted, it was already incorporated into the design, and hence, the homologation.

[Coach 2]

How can national championships then be expected to flourish if, in terms of the cars used, they are distinctly second class?
How do you explain, the success of the S2000.
Remember, I wrote that WRC should not have been allowed, not what else should have been instead. (read between the lines and think about money).
When the Swedish rally was on top (when talking about the number of participants), they had a completely separate regulations that were restrictive with all that cost much money, but not with things that increased durability.


They seem now to be most interested only in what goes on in the FIA-sanctioned championships rather than looking at the wider interests of the sports under their jurisdiction as a whole.
Im not the one who believes that FIA are doing everything right and is the great defender of what they decide, but I do not think it's so easy to do better than them, as some others.
You must remember that they do not want to destroy their livelihoods.

[Coach 2]

I'm not the best to write here.
Part of my answer is in the square.

[danon]

Things can get even more complicated when the hybrid/full electric cars get into the rally game.

[Brother John]

This thread once again brought out.
Still I see no positives for the future of the WRC.
More bad news is certainly coming, but you must also see that the economization of the world has influence on the sport and certainly Rally.
I have not responded to what's happening in Portugal because then I still get attacked again, my opinions come here later or never. I'll wait until we hear more news of the factory teams and their future.

[AndyRAC]

I’m not sure the current time is the best time for new Manufacturers to join. I’m also coming to the conclusion that Rallying is possibly no longer as relevant as it was to the major Manufacturers. Other series allow hybrids, diesels, etc
Saying that, VW arriving is a big coup....but others are needed. As are sponsors, etc
However, it doesn’t help when the stakeholders are disagreeing over the future direction. The woeful media coverage doesn’t help. The Power stage – made for TV has been hit & miss this year.

[Brother John]

I agree with what you write here AndyRAC, we also see that there is already in motorsport rates to be canceled because too few participants and money problems. Also in WRC and IRC we see fewer drivers. When will we see the first canceling of a wrc rally this year? Of course I hope that in the future the WRC remains.

[kathleenjames]

Nice post but unfortunately I have no information about this.

[OldF]

In the last issue of Vauhdin Maailama Toni Gardemeister tells that in his opinion one big reason for the descent in motorsport was when the advertising of tobacco products were banned. Maybe a general lack of sponsors nowadays.

[AndyRAC]

In the last issue of Vauhdin Maailama Toni Gardemeister tells that in his opinion one big reason for the descent in motorsport was when the advertising of tobacco products were banned. Maybe a general lack of sponsors nowadays.

You're right. I think only Portugal, NZ & Finland hace commercial sponsors for their events; Vodafone, Brother & Neste Oils......The rest are backed by Tourist/Regional boards....which isn't healthy. It might help if the sport was attractive to sponsors - look what happened to Prodrive; good results but no sponsor.

[COD]

Too long with too complicated and way too expensive cars lead to loss of manufacturers and then loss of other sponsors. That because general interest on rallying was lost because only 2 manufacturers. I blame big teams and FIA that they allowed (and still to some extent allow) rallycars be too expensive and boring. Less wings, less suspension travel etc would make it easier for new reams to enter + make watching it more interesting.

Toni is of course right in that banning cigarette advertisement has hit motorsports very hard. Healthnazism sucks :)