New Jersey GP in 2013

[Ranger]

Pretty much as it says:


Formula 1 is set to have two grands prix in the United States from 2013, with plans for a race around the streets of New Jersey expected to be confirmed as early as next week.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95596

[truefan72]

I'm still trying to figure out exactly how they will create a track in that area

[steveaki13]

The same old question, what will be dropped?

Also I do feel they should try 1 grand prix for a while before putting 2 in.

I hope UAE or China go and Bahrain is left for good.

[ioan]

Finally a good money cow.
One thing they shouldn't lack are spectators.

[nigelred5]

I've seen this if it helps... I don't know those streets. One thing I know for sure, it's not going to be a Singapore level track.....\\


http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/NY-BC462_NYRACE_NS_20110802193903.jpg

[Koz]

The same old question, what will be dropped?

Also I do feel they should try 1 grand prix for a while before putting 2 in.

I hope UAE or China go and Bahrain is left for good.

Of course it won't be one of those!!

Not a chance. It will be Montreal or Hungary.

[thi]

Could hope for Valencia, went this year and it is sooo boring as a track.

[AndyL]

Could hope for Valencia, went this year and it is sooo boring as a track.

That would be a good one to drop, especially as no other country has 2 grand prix.

[Hawkmoon]

It'll be Spa for sure. Who cares if the track is universally adored by drivers and fans alike? Belgium simply doesn't get Bernie enough filthy lucre. :rolleyes:

[Robinho]

so is that Jersey Shore?

[555-04Q2]

It'll be Spa for sure. Who cares if the track is universally adored by drivers and fans alike? Belgium simply doesn't get Bernie enough filthy lucre. :rolleyes:

Don't say that :angry:

Greatest race track of all time after The Ring!

[nigelred5]

You have got to be kidding me! F1 is seriously desperate to have a race near NYC be approving What I have seen of the course area from the pictures AR1 has posted. some of those streets make Monaco look like a Tilkedrome. That looks like a 100% reconstruction and paving project to get even close to minimal F1 course standards. New Jersey can't even pay their basic bills to operate the state government. Where is THAT money coming from? Constructing a race course on those streets looks like a $200 million dollar paving project before they build a single amenity. Where is a single person going to view the race.

[DexDexter]

You have got to be kidding me! F1 is seriously desperate to have a race near NYC be approving What I have seen of the course area from the pictures AR1 has posted. some of those streets make Monaco look like a Tilkedrome. That looks like a 100% reconstruction and paving project to get even close to minimal F1 course standards. New Jersey can't even pay their basic bills to operate the state government. Where is THAT money coming from? Constructing a race course on those streets looks like a $200 million dollar paving project before they build a single amenity. Where is a single person going to view the race.

The money is coming from somewhere, Bernie will not make a deal without assurances. Great day for F1, it's will be a true World Championship by any standards now, I mean three races in North America, one in South America with Mexico probably being added in the the near future.

[schmenke]

I thought the current regulations prohibit more than one event per country. Or is the plan to alternate NJ with Austin every year?

[schmenke]

Yes, but they alternate. No one country currently hosts two F1 GP events in the same year.

[Koz]

It'll be Spa for sure. Who cares if the track is universally adored by drivers and fans alike? Belgium simply doesn't get Bernie enough filthy lucre. :rolleyes:

Hasn't Spa already been dropped?

It won't be Valencia, I'm sure Santander won't like that.

[nigelred5]

The only current GP's that alternate are Hockenheim and Nurburgring, and even that is in doubt. Spa and France was talked about.

IIRC Austin is the USGP, held at the Circuit of the Americas; NewJersey is supposedly being called GP of America or something like that, in Weehauken? Totally different! ;)

How long before we see a Burr-Hamilton duel reference in the promotion???

[nigelred5]

That's ahell of a hill they have to climb and decend at either end of the course. Can't say I don't like that, just looks like the roads down hte pallisades cliffs are p r e t t y narrow. I'm thinking Loews narrow.

[jens]

Zero races currently in USA, two in two years' time?! Wow what a sudden change in direction after Bernie fell out with Indianapolis. But I'm not particularly fond of having multiple races in the same country, especially as there are so many countries that want to host a race.

[D28]

Just what F1 so desperately needs, another street circuit. As nigelred5 alludes to, such a proposed circuit would need massive construction upgrades, presumably from public funds. US street courses present some of the worst racing layouts anywhere, because basic infrastructure has been neglected for so long. I watched part of a ALMS race from the Baltimore Grand Prix, including a full-course caution situation from a loose manhole cover.

The problem is that the Governor, mentioned in the story, as late as Jan was musing about the state being forced into bankruptcy. He was exaggerating over a health and education funding issue, but it is no secret that the state is in perilous financial shape. So where is the money to come from?

Bernie seems obsessed with bringing F1 to this urban area because it has 12-15M people, who he assumes are desparate to see a Grand Prix. This remains to be seen.
There is a core group of enthusiasts who could be attracted to drive a few hours to a real racing venue, Watkins Glen still attracts crowds for various events.
But F1 turned that corner many years ago and has been looking for a permanent home for a USGP ever since.
I doubt very much that NJ will be that home.

[nigelred5]

Zero races currently in USA, two in two years' time?! Wow what a sudden change in direction after Bernie fell out with Indianapolis. But I'm not particularly fond of having multiple races in the same country, especially as there are so many countries that want to host a race.

I don't know that it's a sudden change in direction, Bernie has been looking for other US sites for several years. Even indy wasn't where Bernie wanted to be. He was just finally able to find two fools willing to part with $3-400mil. I'm very curious to see the details of this deal. I've only see nlimited pics posted by AR1, but that project looks like A LOT of taxpayer money to accomodate F1. I suppose that area is a targeted area for development or something looking at the pictures.

[D28]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/formula_one/15440153.stm

This link has more about coming announcement.

Spokesman modestly compares the circuit to Spa, but with a feel of Monaco. Good to see he understands the dangers of hyperbole.

[call_me_andrew]

I've seen this if it helps... I don't know those streets. One thing I know for sure, it's not going to be a Singapore level track.....\\


http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/NY-BC462_NYRACE_NS_20110802193903.jpg

It looks like that map uses JFK Boulevard as a straightaway, but that's a residential area. Even I wouldn't want an F1 race (literally) in my front yard.

The more likely route would Follow Port Imperial Boulevard and Avenue at Port Imperial, but there are still be apartment buildings along the way. Plus it would block access to the ferry terminal.

[DexDexter]

The layout doesn't look any worse than all the street circuits Indycars race on. I sense some sour grapes from a couple of American posters (where on earth is the money coming from, etc.) New York is a logical choice for an F1 race since the place is most like Europe in the US and a lot of the people living there are immigrants from countries where F1 is known.

[555-04Q2]

it's will be a true World Championship by any standards now, I mean three races in North America, one in South America with Mexico probably being added in the the near future.

Not really a true World Championship until an African race is added to the list as well.

[Dave B]

Another street circuit. Hold my enthusiasm. :z

[nigelred5]

The layout doesn't look any worse than all the street circuits Indycars race on. I sense some sour grapes from a couple of American posters (where on earth is the money coming from, etc.) New York is a logical choice for an F1 race since the place is most like Europe in the US and a lot of the people living there are immigrants from countries where F1 is known.

New York may be a "logical" choice, but that location??? How about starting with holding it.... In NEW YORK! worse than Indycar curcuits? No, but that's where Im sceptical.. F1 doesn't accept races (other than Monaco) on anything even remotely like an Indycar circuit. Where are they building the mandatory permanent pit facility F1 requires?

Comparisons to Spa?... Uh, it's got hills... Monaco?.... Well, there's water.. Almost the entire course appears to be through residential streets or past High dollar condos. How's That going to go over when officially announced.

From the picutrres AR1 posted, It's going to run along the top of hte cliffs along JFK, then down to delfino, down the hill and then onto Port Imperial BLVD. I don't see where else it could run staying down on the river banks and have a complete circuit. Where's my popcorn waiting for this one to develop.....

[Malbec]

Just what F1 so desperately needs, another street circuit. As nigelred5 alludes to, such a proposed circuit would need massive construction upgrades, presumably from public funds. US street courses present some of the worst racing layouts anywhere, because basic infrastructure has been neglected for so long. I watched part of a ALMS race from the Baltimore Grand Prix, including a full-course caution situation from a loose manhole cover.

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/10/22/monaco-on-the-hudson/

Joe Saward suggests that much of the funding would come from private investors, not least the landowner who owns most of the land the track is on. If so public funds would not have to be dipped into.

I think it would be a great idea to run a race there. Handled properly NJ could be akin to Singapore which has got the most out of F1 IMO, raising the profile of the NJ districts the race is held in.

Also with one of the densest population centres in the world wrapped around it hopefully this is one new race (like Singapore) that could hope to maintain full grandstands and therefore income for years to come. The only problem with this though is that the F1 engines will be heard pretty much all over Manhattan over the extended weekend which could annoy as many people as it attracts.

[D28]

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/10/22/monaco-on-the-hudson/

Joe Saward suggests that much of the funding would come from private investors, not least the landowner who owns most of the land the track is on. If so public funds would not have to be dipped into.

I see from story that the pits and facilities could be built on private land. That still leaves public roads for the actual circuit. Could someone comment on the present state of these roads, what upgrades are necessary other than repaving; example, curbs, armco barriers and so on. F1 standards are considerably higher than IRS when running street circuits in N. America. Would this not involve some outlay of public funds? I notice the mayors claim no requirement of funds, but is this realistic?
Afterall, when they are mentioning Spa and Monaco in the same breath, it is prudent to be slightly skeptical.

[nigelred5]

Autoracing 1 has about 30 street level photographs of every turn and straight of the proposed course. let's just say, I would expect 100% of it needing repaving, the two sections that go up and down the cliffs needing extensive rebuilding, new walls, etc. especially o nteh southern end where that climb is very narrow. Everythign on top of the hill looks to be public roads/street , however it seems as though many/much of the roads closest ot the Hudson may be still private land(?) There is a rail terminal and looks like two different ferry landings in that area, which a local may be able to tell if they are public or private. I want to know how the hell are fans going to get there, and where are they going to park, etc. The proposed course looks like it will totally lock that area on the river down with little means of egress. It looks like it's going to rely on a near 100% commitment of public/mass transportation to get to the track area.

[schmenke]

... It looks like it's going to rely on a near 100% commitment of public/mass transportation to get to the track area.

Similar to the Montreal GP.

[FIAT1]

I remember Huston and Detroit and for the racing fan there is nothing better,. Indy was close to me and I vent every year but they left again. I will go see it because I love it, but challenge for F1 is how to keep it afordable and make profit. Money was a problem at Indy and was in Montreal . I hope for the best and looking forward to be there.

[AndyRAC]

Oh dear, a dumb idea....

I know it's not possible, but the FiA should have the final say on the calendar.....purely to provide a check & balance for the suitability of the Championship.

[D28]

I sense some sour grapes from a couple of American posters (where on earth is the money coming from, etc.) New York is a logical choice for an F1 race since the place is most like Europe in the US and a lot of the people living there are immigrants from countries where F1 is known.

A healthy dose of scepticism is warranted, because of the record of other F1 Grand Prix in Dallas, Detroit, Las Vegas Phoenix... maybe missed a few. If F1 is to prosper in the US, I believe it will be at a proper permanent racing facility, not a street circuit. Street circuits by their nature emphasize a temporary nature, and this plays into Bernie's bait and switch negotiating tecniques. A US F1 race will take some years to grow into a tradition and this cannot be achieved by moving every few years. Indy was a possibility, not a great layout, but at least a good traditional connection with motorsport.

I note that before a wheel turns at Austin, already there is a second proposed F1 race. This will not help the organizers as they lose their unique claim to the only appearence of F1 racing in US. I assume they were aware of this, but they might wonder, how many other groups does has Bernie have waiting in the wings?
To me this is the main problem of a US Grand Prix and I don't see a NJ street race as being the solution.
I think it would have been wise to see how the Austin race panned out, before announcing a 2nd event.

[DexDexter]

A healthy dose of scepticism is warranted, because of the record of other F1 Grand Prix in Dallas, Detroit, Las Vegas Phoenix... maybe missed a few. If F1 is to prosper in the US, I believe it will be at a proper permanent racing facility, not a street circuit. Street circuits by their nature emphasize a temporary nature, and this plays into Bernie's bait and switch negotiating tecniques. A US F1 race will take some years to grow into a tradition and this cannot be achieved by moving every few years. Indy was a possibility, not a great layout, but at least a good traditional connection with motorsport.

I note that before a wheel turns at Austin, already there is a second proposed F1 race. This will not help the organizers as they lose their unique claim to the only appearence of F1 racing in US. I assume they were aware of this, but they might wonder, how many other groups does has Bernie have waiting in the wings?
To me this is the main problem of a US Grand Prix and I don't see a NJ street race as being the solution.
I think it would have been wise to see how the Austin race panned out, before announcing a 2nd event.

But isn't it so that in order to have even limited success in the US (F1 isn't looking to be a major sport in the US), they need to be there more than once a year and they need to have as many races as possible that don't happen in the early hours of the morning for Americans.

[D28]

But isn't it so that in order to have even limited success in the US (F1 isn't looking to be a major sport in the US), they need to be there more than once a year and they need to have as many races as possible that don't happen in the early hours of the morning for Americans.
In a word no. Most people are able to tape their TV programs, it matters little when they are on. I watch most races, but have seldom watched one live. If they are broadcast, fans will find them.

I think it is more important to have some consistency, or tradition. In this case let Austin develop and see if the appeal is there, before adding a 2nd race. F1 will take some years to grow because it has been absent for a while. In a sense it will be like starting from scratch again. There are dozens of sports events on American TV now, and F1 does not rate very highly at all. It will be a tough sell for sure.

[anthonyvop]

Oh dear, a dumb idea....

I know it's not possible, but the FiA should have the final say on the calendar.....purely to provide a check & balance for the suitability of the Championship.

Dumb? I can imagine the FIA's say on a New York Grand Prix......"New York? The Financial and Business Capital of the World? Home to Madison Avenue? Where do we sign?"

[BDunnell]

I think it is more important to have some consistency, or tradition. In this case let Austin develop and see if the appeal is there, before adding a 2nd race. F1 will take some years to grow because it has been absent for a while. In a sense it will be like starting from scratch again. There are dozens of sports events on American TV now, and F1 does not rate very highly at all. It will be a tough sell for sure.

That, I feel, is a very good point.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

I just hope it won't be called New York Grand Prix or New York International Circuit... It's in another state!

Here's the circuit: http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/5839/njformula1trackjpgeb7ce.jpg

Elevation changes: http://twitpic.com/75pe2j

[truefan72]

I just hope it won't be called New York Grand Prix or New York International Circuit... It's in another state!

Here's the circuit: http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/5839/njformula1trackjpgeb7ce.jpg

Elevation changes: http://twitpic.com/75pe2j

I have to admit I do like the track layout...but questions remain about much else.
If it does happen. I'll be there for sure

[nigelred5]

Someone has a ton of cash.! It has potential. Reminds me of Montreal until you know that the Palisades are one hell of a cliff!.

[anthonyvop]

I just hope it won't be called New York Grand Prix or New York International Circuit... It's in another state!


Both of the NFL's New York Giants and the New York Jets play in a Brand new Stadium built in New Jersey.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Both of the NFL's New York Giants and the New York Jets play in a Brand new Stadium built in New Jersey.

Yeah, that's why I wrote it...

[DexDexter]

In a word no. Most people are able to tape their TV programs, it matters little when they are on. I watch most races, but have seldom watched one live. If they are broadcast, fans will find them.

I think it is more important to have some consistency, or tradition. In this case let Austin develop and see if the appeal is there, before adding a 2nd race. F1 will take some years to grow because it has been absent for a while. In a sense it will be like starting from scratch again. There are dozens of sports events on American TV now, and F1 does not rate very highly at all. It will be a tough sell for sure.

Fans? This isn't about those few hardcore F1 fans in the US, believe me. F1 is looking to attract more casual viewers and that's only possible if the races don't happen in the middle of the night or something. Talking about AMerica and F1, I've seen some ratings and isn't it so that an F1 race on Fox gets about the same number of viewers as an Indycar race on ABC?

[nigelred5]

They need to change the Fox Broadcasts... Give me 100% of what we get from SPEED channel, not the truncated, WWF voice guy, start the broadcast as they are rolling onto the grid, commercial laden race, look three guys and three flags, they played a little music, but no idea what it was, "Yes, I'm happy I won; Thanks, Seb" interview version. They take a great broadcast from Speed and ruin it.

Personally, I much prefer the race broadcasts early AM Sunday mornings. I get up at a decent hour, get to watch the race Live in peace and quiet, it doesn't conflict with every other form of racing also on Sunday( can't record three races at hte same time), and most importantly, it doesn't mess with my boating schedule as it actually it gets me out on the water earlier.

[nigelred5]

Both of the NFL's New York Giants and the New York Jets play in a Brand new Stadium built in New Jersey.

And don't tell a fan the Giant's aren't NEW JERSEY's team! Have you ever found a Jets fan from New Jersey?

The Yankees were smart staying in NYC. At least they call the Devils and nets what they are...New Jersey Teams.

[D28]

Fans? This isn't about those few hardcore F1 fans in the US, believe me. F1 is looking to attract more casual viewers and that's only possible if the races don't happen in the middle of the night or something. Talking about AMerica and F1, I've seen some ratings and isn't it so that an F1 race on Fox gets about the same number of viewers as an Indycar race on ABC?
The majority of the races now are live at 8 am NJ time, or 7 Austin time, if they are broadcast live.
Those hours have the advantage as nigelred5 points out, of not conflicting with many other sports.

If F1 truly wants to attract more viewers, consistency, tradition and other things I mentioned are arguably more important than race time. Since F1 left Long Beach after 1983, it has always taken the short term view, how much money can be gotten from promoters. A long term view would have attempted to grow the sport with a permanent location. Either Long Beach, or Indianapolis would have been adequate. Instead, by missing several years, it has allowed NASCAR to get a strangle hold on TV and race audience.

I can't comment on F1 TV ratings, except to say they are abysmal, as are those for IndyCar. Low interest leads to poor TV packages, causing even less interest.

The problems faced now by F1 in the US are much greater than simply adding another race in the afternoon time slot.
It will take years to overcome the mismanagement and indifference shown by Bernie and F1 to this market.

[kfzmeister]

Came across this video on another site, so enjoy!
It really shows what the track will look like. Almost as if you were there!! Does remind me of a Montreal with elevation sorta like Monaco.
I do believe i read that Tilke is in charge.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adtIiPQiI5Q&feature=player_embedded

[Dave B]

There's just something about Governer Christie which I can't put my finger on, but which sets by BS detector warbling. I get the uneasy sense that holding a Grand Prix is a gigantic ego trip for the guy, rather than a pragmatic move. The numbers just don't add up, and I really hope I'm wrong but I have reservations about this event.

[truefan72]

The majority of the races now are live at 8 am NJ time, or 7 Austin time, if they are broadcast live.
Those hours have the advantage as nigelred5 points out, of not conflicting with many other sports.

If F1 truly wants to attract more viewers, consistency, tradition and other things I mentioned are arguably more important than race time. Since F1 left Long Beach after 1983, it has always taken the short term view, how much money can be gotten from promoters. A long term view would have attempted to grow the sport with a permanent location. Either Long Beach, or Indianapolis would have been adequate. Instead, by missing several years, it has allowed NASCAR to get a strangle hold on TV and race audience.

I can't comment on F1 TV ratings, except to say they are abysmal, as are those for IndyCar. Low interest leads to poor TV packages, causing even less interest.

The problems faced now by F1 in the US are much greater than simply adding another race in the afternoon time slot.
It will take years to overcome the mismanagement and indifference shown by Bernie and F1 to this market.


and that's why it is in the middle of the summer where it is not competing with any major sporting events

[D28]

and that's why it is in the middle of the summer where it is not competing with any major sporting events

Except baseball and NASCAR which it can't avoid in June.

[call_me_andrew]

And don't tell a fan the Giant's aren't NEW JERSEY's team! Have you ever found a Jets fan from New Jersey?

The Yankees were smart staying in NYC. At least they call the Devils and nets what they are...New Jersey Teams.

I've only known Jets and Eagles fans from New Jersey. I've never known a Giants fan from there.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I've only known Jets and Eagles fans from New Jersey. I've never known a Giants fan from there.

Oh god..I have...anyhow..no one really cares outside of the folks from Jersey.


Well, I am a skeptic on the economics of it. IT sounds like Christie got schmoozed by Bernie, so unless there is some fools with private money in this, Gov. Christie is really rolling the dice. I think it is a dopey idea if it only lasts a few years...but after seeing the video of the track, and seeing the track map, it may be one hell of a good race track. It is fraught with a lot of questions...but man...it isn't your typical street circuit and it doesn't feel like an anseptic Tilkedrome....so I am going to say since I don't live in NJ I can be a fan of it....

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Well, I am a skeptic on the economics of it. IT sounds like Christie got schmoozed by Bernie, so unless there is some fools with private money in this, Gov. Christie is really rolling the dice. I think it is a dopey idea if it only lasts a few years...but after seeing the video of the track, and seeing the track map, it may be one hell of a good race track. It is fraught with a lot of questions...but man...it isn't your typical street circuit and it doesn't feel like an anseptic Tilkedrome....so I am going to say since I don't live in NJ I can be a fan of it....

It makes me laugh that it's two Republican led states that will join the Ecclestone public money extortion scheme called Grand Prix hosting. Even if it is true that the race pays for the huge promotion fees in terms of economic impact and tax revenue, stimulating the economy with tax dollars is the evil for those guys.

On another note, why call it the Grand Prix of America? It's a great opportunity to revive the histority US Grand Prix East and West names.

[nigelred5]

I've only known Jets and Eagles fans from New Jersey. I've never known a Giants fan from there.

I suppose that's because My family is in/from North Jersey, as are most of the Jersey transplants we have around here.

[ShiftingGears]

Yes, but they alternate. No one country currently hosts two F1 GP events in the same year.

...Spain has hosted two grands prix per year every year since 2008.

[nigelred5]

Oh god..I have...anyhow..no one really cares outside of the folks from Jersey.


Well, I am a skeptic on the economics of it. IT sounds like Christie got schmoozed by Bernie, so unless there is some fools with private money in this, Gov. Christie is really rolling the dice. I think it is a dopey idea if it only lasts a few years...but after seeing the video of the track, and seeing the track map, it may be one hell of a good race track. It is fraught with a lot of questions...but man...it isn't your typical street circuit and it doesn't feel like an anseptic Tilkedrome....so I am going to say since I don't live in NJ I can be a fan of it....

Tilke doesn't have a whole lot of opportunity to ruin it since he's got very limited streets to work with and what looks like limited changes to the actual roads they have chosen. From some of hte coments I've read on some local blogs, most of that land down on the river front is all still totally provately owned, including the BLVD(?). There was question if that had been turned over to Hudson County yet or not. I just wonder how much the owners of all those condos had been told before this was announced. F1 is LOUD.

Too bad F1 and Indycar won't play in the same sandbox. F1 support races are pretty lacking when they travel outside of Europe and don't have GP2 supporting them. I'd love to see Indycars support with a race Saturday but I'm sure Bernie would never have it and traditionally Indycar and it's fans haven't liked to openly admit they are far slower than F1.

Seeing the drive arounds, it does look have the potential to be very fast with maybe two obvious passing spots and potentiala for some interesting action running downhill into that hairpin.

Suprizingly, I've seen nothing to indicate there is any public money in the CURRENT plans. They specifically state the promoter will be reimbursing the costs for police and EMS and CLAIM there will be no re-paving. I call BS. They could and probably should permanently replace those walls both up and down both hills with permanent race walls and fencing or those areas are going to be very narrow by the time they position temporary walls and fencing.

I want to know how and where fans are going to be able to get up and down that cliff. Those stairs are going to be one heck of a choke point. I suppose there are ways t oget down the hill through the park where the poools and football field are.

CC is certainly good for a soundbite.

[Mark]

Came across this video on another site, so enjoy!
It really shows what the track will look like. Almost as if you were there!! Does remind me of a Montreal with elevation sorta like Monaco.
I do believe i read that Tilke is in charge.


Kind of reminds of of a cross between Valencia and Melbourne. The important thing is to make sure the landscape is obvious. With many tracks e.g. Valencia, Singapore, they've completely failed with this.

[nigelred5]

It makes me laugh that it's two Republican led states that will join the Ecclestone public money extortion scheme called Grand Prix hosting. Even if it is true that the race pays for the huge promotion fees in terms of economic impact and tax revenue, stimulating the economy with tax dollars is the evil for those guys.

On another note, why call it the Grand Prix of America? It's a great opportunity to revive the histority US Grand Prix East and West names.

You've also got some different types of Republicans in play in Jersey. Lots of center right, in name only types.

I agree, it would seem logical to re-think the naming and flip flop the USGP and American GP, especially since the Austin race is being held at the "Circuit of the Americas". I like the idea of returning to the USGP East and West. I actually like the timing of the two races. A definite mid season race that pairs two tracks that may require similar low downforce car configurations, and a very late season race on a proper road course that may factor in on deciding the outcome of the championship

[nigelred5]

Kind of reminds of of a cross between Valencia and Melbourne. The important thing is to make sure the landscape is obvious. With many tracks e.g. Valencia, Singapore, they've completely failed with this.

i agree. They have a tendency to pull in too closely on street courses, to the point they might as well be racing in a tunnel. I have to think the majority of the camera angles on the upper segment of the course will be facing east to be sure to capture the Manhattan Skyline as much as possible. I'm already curious to see anticipated speeds as they crest the hill and turn onto JFK Blvd. That's one hell of a pull across the bridge, make that hard right and then sweep up the hill. Should be some great Helicopter views. The first pictures I was able to pull up of the track area looked like a really trashy area, but they apepar to have been old pics and probably after some bad weather, but it's mainly those two hills where the walls really make it look grotesque with ancient walls, broken concrete, potholes and the typical pollution fallout that is evident on everything in that area. Everythign up there just always looks like it needs a serious scrub down and power wash.

[schmenke]

...Spain has hosted two grands prix per year every year since 2008.

Really? :s
Shows how closely I've been following the sport for the last couple of years :mark:

[schmenke]

From what I can google there seems to be quite a few residential homes and apartment buildings along JFK Blvd. How will residents be affected during the race weekend? :mark:

[D28]

From what I can google there seems to be quite a few residential homes and apartment buildings along JFK Blvd. How will residents be affected during the race weekend? :mark:

This link from SpeedTV addresses that:
FORMULA ONE - F1: Formula One To Race In New Jersey In 2013 (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-formula-one-to-race-in-new-jersey-in-2013/)
The spokesman says no access to houses will be affected, but doesn't explain how.
This is a fairly litigious section of America, I would be very surprised if some injunctions are not being prepared.

Bridgehamptom on Long Island was permanently shut down by eco types a few decades ago, and it was in a less poulated area.
The article mentions repaving for the track is already scheduled.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Bridgehamptom on Long Island was permanently shut down by eco types a few decades ago, and it was in a less poulated area.
The article mentions repaving for the track is already scheduled.

Less populated, but those who live there are loaded, aren't they? Instead of eco types, one might call them rich dudes with huge mansions who wanted to have a golf course in their backyard instead of noisy racecars.

[wedge]

Aside from the politics I'm really looking forward to this race track.

Not your stereotypical street circuit with an overdose of 90 degree bends. The back section reminds me of Macau flowing into Surfer's Paradise.

Still don't get the obsession with having a water backdrop to round off a street track in F1.

[Dave B]

Still don't get the obsession with having a water backdrop to round off a street track in F1.
Me neither. I'm starting to wonder if I'm the only one round here who couldn't really give a stuff what's in the background, within reason, so long as what's happening on the tarmac is interesting enough.

[schmenke]

...Still don't get the obsession with having a water backdrop to round off a street track in F1.

Doesn't do Singapore a lot of good, does it? :p :

I'm not so sure it's necessarilly the water, but the city skyline that the FOM is after.

[Kevincal]

new jersey as a state has a horrible reputation. they could not have picked a worse place. maybe they made a deal with the mob, mob has a lot of money lol there needs to be an f1 race in california, there are tons of fans and money here. and tons of race tracks. street circuit racing is garbage, there is never enough room to pass and its more dangerous.

[anthonyvop]

It makes me laugh that it's two Republican led states that will join the Ecclestone public money extortion scheme called Grand Prix hosting. Even if it is true that the race pays for the huge promotion fees in terms of economic impact and tax revenue, stimulating the economy with tax dollars is the evil for those guys.

.

Laugh it up.......Gov. Christie stated categorically that no N.J. State Tax dollars will be used.

BTW Christie is a R.I.N.O. anyway.

[BDunnell]

Laugh it up.......Gov. Christie stated categorically that no N.J. State Tax dollars will be used.

Of how many other GPs is it true that literally not a penny of taxation, whether local or national, has ever been spent on them in some form?

[BDunnell]

Kind of reminds of of a cross between Valencia and Melbourne. The important thing is to make sure the landscape is obvious. With many tracks e.g. Valencia, Singapore, they've completely failed with this.

In that respect, the Birmingham Superprix course was one of the best of all. You'd certainly never confuse it with anything else.

[DexDexter]

Really? :s
Shows how closely I've been following the sport for the last couple of years :mark:

Plus Italy had two races for decades.

[schmenke]

Plus Italy had two races for decades.

Yes, I realize that, but San Marino is technically an independant principality. Similar situation to France having hosted events at both Magny-cours and Monaco.

[IceWizard]

Yes, I realize that, but San Marino is technically an independant principality. Similar situation to France having hosted events at both Magny-cours and Monaco.
It's not similar because Imola is actually in Italy, not San Marino, although it is quite close to San Marino I believe.

[schmenke]

It's not similar because Imola is actually in Italy, not San Marino, although it is quite close to San Marino I believe.

Yes, but the host venue is/was San Marino, and it was officially labelled the "San Marino Grand Prix". The circuit is located outside of the principality for obvious reasons :mark:

[schmenke]

In 1993 we had the British GP at Silverstone and the European GP at Donnington.
...

The original intent of the European GP was to alternate among several European venues.
My history is a bit fuzzy, but was it not originally a non-championship race? :?:

[nigelred5]

Aside from the politics I'm really looking forward to this race track.

Not your stereotypical street circuit with an overdose of 90 degree bends. The back section reminds me of Macau flowing into Surfer's Paradise.

Still don't get the obsession with having a water backdrop to round off a street track in F1.

Uber rich guys with scantily clad supermodel types on mega yachts.... it's the Monaco thing... I'm on a BOAT!!

[wedge]

Kind of reminds of of a cross between Valencia and Melbourne. The important thing is to make sure the landscape is obvious. With many tracks e.g. Valencia, Singapore, they've completely failed with this.

What's wrong with Singapore? Downtown city centre at night and signs for the local cricket club. What's not to like?


In that respect, the Birmingham Superprix course was one of the best of all. You'd certainly never confuse it with anything else.

Prominent road signs, mosque, flats, dull buildings, dual carriage, roundabout for a hairpin, garage forecourt/makeshift pit lane. It may have been Brum but it didn't need bikini clad babes on boats moored on a harbourfront.

Still enjoy going round the circuit whenever I get the chance. A shame the council removed the last remaining piece of armco next to the wholesale market a few years ago.

[truefan72]

From what I can google there seems to be quite a few residential homes and apartment buildings along JFK Blvd. How will residents be affected during the race weekend? :mark:

positively I guess
most will rent out their units for the weekend and make enough to pay for 3 months rent
those who are motorsports fans will feel like they have struck gold
those who are bothered by 1 weekend of motorsports noise that help their locale economy and drives up their real-estate by probably 150% should look for another place and make a handsome profit in doing so
or simply go away for the weekend.
Unless you are a true hater, there are 6 ways to come out great from being a resident in this location

[truefan72]

new jersey as a state has a horrible reputation. they could not have picked a worse place. maybe they made a deal with the mob, mob has a lot of money lol there needs to be an f1 race in california, there are tons of fans and money here. and tons of race tracks. street circuit racing is garbage, there is never enough room to pass and its more dangerous.

LOL
have you ever been to that part of NJ, it might as well be annexed by NYC since most folks living there work in NYC or if asked, consider NYC as their city.
This isn't the "sopranos" NJ area that is at least a good 35-40 minutes from Manhattan.
I guess you have never been to this area before and are simply making an uneducated sweeping statement about this particular area.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

The original intent of the European GP was to alternate among several European venues.
My history is a bit fuzzy, but was it not originally a non-championship race? :?:

Originally, the European Grand Prix was not a standalone event, instead, a different national Grands Prix every year was designated as the European Grand Prix. For example, in 1954, it was the German Grand Prix that was also called the European Grand Prix, the next year, it was Monaco etc. It was a honorific title. That ended in 1977. The term was revived to allow a single country to host more than one Grand Prix. It was Brands Hatch in 1983 and 1985, and the new Nürburgring in 1984.

[nigelred5]

positively I guess
most will rent out their units for the weekend and make enough to pay for 3 months rent
those who are motorsports fans will feel like they have struck gold
those who are bothered by 1 weekend of motorsports noise that help their locale economy and drives up their real-estate by probably 150% should look for another place and make a handsome profit in doing so
or simply go away for the weekend.
Unless you are a true hater, there are 6 ways to come out great from being a resident in this location

Street course Track construction doesn't occur without disruption to the local community, however in that area, it's essentially two streets affected. The hills honestly look like thay have walls and fences their entire lenght as it is. Might as well rebuild them so they are permanent race walls.

[ioan]

The question is how long before they can't afford to pay Bernie's ransom and he threatens to move F1 to another venue? Probably around the 3rd GP there.

[ioan]

positively I guess
most will rent out their units for the weekend and make enough to pay for 3 months rent

Is rent that cheap in that area?!

[D28]

The question is how long before they can't afford to pay Bernie's ransom and he threatens to move F1 to another venue? Probably around the 3rd GP there.

For what it's worth, not much I suspect, both US venues are musing about 10 year deals. Already the Austin race is facing some legal challenges, see here:

N.J. hosting of Formula 1 race raises questions about Texas hosting with subsidies | NJ.com (http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/10/nj_hosting_of_formula_1_race_r.html)

Interesting to hear Tony George's comments that the reason he shut down the Indy F1 races was because of a distinct lack of ticket sales.
I understood that George deleted some of his family fortune, rather using public funds for his F1 venture. Could his F1 races be the answer to BDunnell's question above about any GPs not receiving public money?
Someone local care to comment on this?

[Jared East]

i agree. They have a tendency to pull in too closely on street courses, to the point they might as well be racing in a tunnel. I have to think the majority of the camera angles on the upper segment of the course will be facing east to be sure to capture the Manhattan Skyline as much as possible. I'm already curious to see anticipated speeds as they crest the hill and turn onto JFK Blvd. That's one hell of a pull across the bridge, make that hard right and then sweep up the hill. Should be some great Helicopter views. The first pictures I was able to pull up of the track area looked like a really trashy area, but they apepar to have been old pics and probably after some bad weather, but it's mainly those two hills where the walls really make it look grotesque with ancient walls, broken concrete, potholes and the typical pollution fallout that is evident on everything in that area. Everythign up there just always looks like it needs a serious scrub down and power wash.


Yea it is New Jersey.

I think its cool to have a second race but not in NJ.

[truefan72]

Is rent that cheap in that area?!

people rent out their places in monaco for upwards of $50k for a weekend in great spots

even if you take half of that in that area it would still be a nice sum of money
say even if they get $15k that will still mean a place worth about $5k a month, which is on the high side for spots that side of the river
I lived in NYC for 10 years so pretty much know what I'm talking about?
how about you?

[nigelred5]

Yea it is New Jersey.

I think its cool to have a second race but not in NJ.

I think you need to also aknowledge the following sentence in my post. It's not Monaco, but that area certainly isn't low income. The pictures I had seen showed broken concrete and lots of road patches. Most of the videos I've seen look fine actually.

[ioan]

people rent out their places in monaco for upwards of $50k for a weekend in great spots

even if you take half of that in that area it would still be a nice sum of money
say even if they get $15k that will still mean a place worth about $5k a month, which is on the high side for spots that side of the river
I lived in NYC for 10 years so pretty much know what I'm talking about?
how about you?

:laugh:

Did you just compare New Jersey to Monaco?
Do you know the level of luxury in a Monaco apartment compared to what you would get in New Jersey? You wouldn't even imagine it.

You're a funny guy. :D

[ioan]

I think Truefan72 compared the two and also outlined the difference between the two quite nicely. The fact he acknowledged that apartments are rented out for races in Monaco at 50k and New york would be around 15k suggests IMO he knows the wealth level of both cities are vastly different.

:rotflmao:
The race is not in downtown NY but in NJ.
Monaco is much more expensive than NY, let alone NJ. Saying that if they can get 55K in Monaco then 15K in NJ is doable is rather funny. It would be more like 1.5K.

You're a funny guy too, but this we knew already.

[airshifter]

:rotflmao:
The race is not in downtown NY but in NJ.
Monaco is much more expensive than NY, let alone NJ. Saying that if they can get 55K in Monaco then 15K in NJ is doable is rather funny. It would be more like 1.5K.

You're a funny guy too, but this we knew already.


Rather than question everyone, why not fill us in on your vast knowledge of the area around the NJ track.


Should we assume that you have lived in that area for 10 years like Truefan72?

[DexDexter]

Rather than question everyone, why not fill us in on your vast knowledge of the area around the NJ track.


Should we assume that you have lived in that area for 10 years like Truefan72?

He really doesn't care, he just wants to annoy henners88.

[henners88]

:rotflmao:
The race is not in downtown NY but in NJ.
Monaco is much more expensive than NY, let alone NJ. Saying that if they can get 55K in Monaco then 15K in NJ is doable is rather funny. It would be more like 1.5K.

You're a funny guy too, but this we knew already.
Well you obviously have more knowledge on the rental prices of NYC than somebody who has lived there for many years it seems, so who are we to argue? The fact you are totally incapable of engaging in a mature debate without being condescending and negative when you don't have the knowledge to back up you claims is rather sad.

[nigelred5]

current rental rates for some of the condos in Port Imperial.

Price Sheet (http://www.riverbendpi.com/specials.aspx)

The Landings at Port Imperial Apartments - Four Avenue at Port Imperial - West New York - EquityApartments.com (http://www.equityapartments.com/new-jersey/west-new-york-apartments/edgewater/the-landings-at-port-imperial.aspx)

[Malbec]

:rotflmao:
The race is not in downtown NY but in NJ.
Monaco is much more expensive than NY, let alone NJ. Saying that if they can get 55K in Monaco then 15K in NJ is doable is rather funny. It would be more like 1.5K.

You're a funny guy too, but this we knew already.

As has previously been mentioned the race will be held in NJ just across the water from Manhattan. I doubt rental prices fall that low across that short distance.

Whatever the level of income people can get from renting out their properties that weekend there will be people who will be happy to do so and it will be profitable for them even if it doesn't match Monaco levels.

For those who aren't bothered about renting out their properties I'm worried about the amount of lobbying against the race there might be. Not everyone wants to hear V8s screaming across town and fight their way through a massive influx of racing fans. Monagasques seem to have given up fighting their race and abandon the town for the extended weekend while its notable that the residents of Albert Park have started organising opposition to the race in Melbourne. Thats the flipside of holding a race in the middle of the city.

[Mark]

There's been opposition to Albert Park from day 1.

[DexDexter]

There's been opposition to Albert Park from day 1.

Yep, there has also been opposition to all events in the history of mankind. No matter what you do or plan, someone will oppose.

[schmenke]

I oppose this thread :mad:

[Malbec]

There's been opposition to Albert Park from day 1.

It has increased in extent though as the area around Albert Park has improved, attracting wealthier and more vocal residents.

It would be interesting to find out how exactly (if at all) the race has helped raise property prices in the area.

[CaptainRaiden]

I don't know if anybody's seen this or not. Still pretty rough, but somebody designed a track for rFactor through preliminary sketches and circuit layout plans. I'm guessing someone who lives in NJ and has driven on these streets.

m10_f1o_0So

[Ranger]

That looks absolutely brilliant.

[jens]

If the racetrack was like in that video, it would be fine. :)

By the way, I have been thinking about one thing. People have been wondering and perhaps disappointed, why does Bernie want to bring in so many street circuits. I think his aim is pretty much motivated by finance, visibility and audience, hence I think he is looking forward to add more and more street circuits into the calendar. By bringing a race right into the middle of a big city, it inevitably creates attention among people - it can't escape anyone's mind in that area that a Grand Prix is actually going on. But if a circuit is located nowhere in a countryside, it is in periphery and only F1 fans will pay attention to this. Also in the case of a street circuit the organizer doesn't need to build a completely new track, which would demand additional costs, but can use already existing roads.

[D28]

By the way, I have been thinking about one thing. People have been wondering and perhaps disappointed, why does Bernie want to bring in so many street circuits. I think his aim is pretty much motivated by finance, visibility and audience, hence I think he is looking forward to add more and more street circuits into the calendar. By bringing a race right into the middle of a big city, it inevitably creates attention among people - it can't escape anyone's mind in that area that a Grand Prix is actually going on. But if a circuit is located nowhere in a countryside, it is in periphery and only F1 fans will pay attention to this.

That may be Bernpe's reasoning, but I think it is false in the long run. The problem is that some of the greatest circuits, including F1 premier track at Spa, can be described as "middle of nowhere". In US there are 4 or 5 circuits which F1 would shine on, Road Atlanta for example, but would be dismissed because of this argument. In the US NASCAR, ALMS and IRS all get by with tracks largely outside of major urban centres.
Personally I don't like street circuits, especially for F1. It seems counter productive to design ultra sophisicated racing cars and then confine them to circuits lined with armco or concrete barriers. The cars seem confined, unable to stretch out as they were intended.
I think someone mentioned here that Bernie even considered Indianapolis out in the sticks. This is plainly absurd as people have no trouble finding it for Indy and NASCAR events, the area does have some attachement to motor racing. F1 failed there for reasons other than the location.
I think that Bernie and the managers of F1 really favour urban settings because of the 5 star accomodation available for sponsors and officials. This may be valid for those in a position to enjoy such benefits, but for others, it has little to do with motor racing.

[DexDexter]

That may be Bernpe's reasoning, but I think it is false in the long run. The problem is that some of the greatest circuits, including F1 premier track at Spa, can be described as "middle of nowhere". In US there are 4 or 5 circuits which F1 would shine on, Road Atlanta for example, but would be dismissed because of this argument. In the US NASCAR, ALMS and IRS all get by with tracks largely outside of major urban centres.
Personally I don't like street circuits, especially for F1. It seems counter productive to design ultra sophisicated racing cars and then confine them to circuits lined with armco or concrete barriers. The cars seem confined, unable to stretch out as they were intended.
I think someone mentioned here that Bernie even considered Indianapolis out in the sticks. This is plainly absurd as people have no trouble finding it for Indy and NASCAR events, the area does have some attachement to motor racing. F1 failed there for reasons other than the location.
I think that Bernie and the managers of F1 really favour urban settings because of the 5 star accomodation available for sponsors and officials. This may be valid for those in a position to enjoy such benefits, but for others, it has little to do with motor racing.

Who says F1 failed at Indianapolis? They had 100000+ people there every year. Being too expensive is not a failure.

[D28]

Who says F1 failed at Indianapolis? They had 100000+ people there every year. Being too expensive is not a failure.
Tony George actually, at least he implies that in the link above in my last post. He said he discontinued the race because of a lack of sales. From a business standpoint George lost money on it every year. It was a failure because the cost to Bernie was simply too high for hom to recover expenses. I cannot see why this would be different in NJ, but we shall see.

[schmenke]

Tony George actually, at least he implies that in the link above in my last post. He said he discontinued the race because of a lack of sales. From a business standpoint George lost money on it every year. It was a failure because the cost to Bernie was simply too high for hom to recover expenses. I cannot see why this would be different in NJ, but we shall see.

Because NJ is not a purpose-built venue that fails to generate revenue when not being used.

[D28]

Because NJ is not a purpose-built venue that fails to generate revenue when not being used.

The garages, pits, media centre, will have to be purpose built. Other parts, barriers, grandstands will have to be erected every year. The expenses may differ in nature, somewhat from Tony George's, but they will still be formidable. As I say we will have to wait to find out.

[DexDexter]

Tony George actually, at least he implies that in the link above in my last post. He said he discontinued the race because of a lack of sales. From a business standpoint George lost money on it every year. It was a failure because the cost to Bernie was simply too high for hom to recover expenses. I cannot see why this would be different in NJ, but we shall see.

My point was that there was enough interest, 100 000 people is a good crowd for open wheel type cars in the US, right? That is no failure. The business side is up to the promoter.

[BDunnell]

My point was that there was enough interest, 100 000 people is a good crowd for open wheel type cars in the US, right? That is no failure. The business side is up to the promoter.

Not entirely. It's also up to how much is charged to stage the race in the first place, and in that the promoter has little or no say.

[Mark]

It has increased in extent though as the area around Albert Park has improved, attracting wealthier and more vocal residents.

It would be interesting to find out how exactly (if at all) the race has helped raise property prices in the area.

Sounds a bit like Brands Hatch. They build new houses next to the track then people move there, then complain about the noise from the race track!

[Dave B]

Sounds a bit like Brands Hatch. They build new houses next to the track then people move there, then complain about the noise from the race track!

Rockingham's an even more shocking exampe: they deliberately built the circuit on the back end of a middle-of-nowhere industrial estate, then the nearby housing expanded and the new residents moaned about the noise.

"I just hate the general public" - Alan Partridge.

[AndyL]

Rockingham's an even more shocking exampe: they deliberately built the circuit on the back end of a middle-of-nowhere industrial estate, then the nearby housing expanded and the new residents moaned about the noise.

"I just hate the general public" - Alan Partridge.

Even Monza has had its share of problems with complaining neighbours.

[DexDexter]

Not entirely. It's also up to how much is charged to stage the race in the first place, and in that the promoter has little or no say.

I know Bernie charges a lot but nobody forces one to have an F1 race if it's clear from the outset that it will not bring any profit. Promotion (or lack of it) is also a factor. BTW I've got a feeling that the proposed two American races will pay less than many other circuits.

[ioan]

I know Bernie charges a lot but nobody forces one to have an F1 race if it's clear from the outset that it will not bring any profit. Promotion (or lack of it) is also a factor. BTW I've got a feeling that the proposed two American races will pay less than many other circuits.

You underestimate the goals of today's public figures. It's not like they spend money from their own pockets, and as long as it makes them look good, even if for only one or two years, it might bring them another term in office.

[DexDexter]

You underestimate the goals of today's public figures. It's not like they spend money from their own pockets, and as long as it makes them look good, even if for only one or two years, it might bring them another term in office.

That's true in many cases, I don't doubt that but in the case of Indianapolis the promoter was the same guy who destroyed formula-type racing in the US so maybe he wasn't the ideal person to be the promoter of an F1 race and was partly to blame for the "failure".

[D28]

That's true in many cases, I don't doubt that but in the case of Indianapolis the promoter was the same guy who destroyed formula-type racing in the US so maybe he wasn't the ideal person to be the promoter of an F1 race and was partly to blame for the "failure".

I agree with you about him largely destroying US open wheel racing, but I'm not so sure he is to blame for F1 not catching on at Indy. To his credit, he did pour huge amounts of his family's fortune into building the extra circuit and added facilities. I didn't get an answer to my earlier query about any public funds invested in that project, but I assume they were minimal.
I feel that Bernie and F1 managers themselves are mostly to blame for utterly failing to understand the US market since at least 1983. George was in no way responsible for the 2005 Michelin tire fiasco when 6 cars took the start. It is extremely hard to convince spectators that this is the world premier racing series, when this happens.

Tony George did promote NASCAR races sucessfully and his own 500, so he has some experience there. I believe you said previously that 100,000 spectators was not failure. I agree, and maintain that given time and some financial breaks from Bernie, The USGP could have been at least modestly sucessful at Indianapolis.

[airshifter]

I agree with you about him largely destroying US open wheel racing, but I'm not so sure he is to blame for F1 not catching on at Indy. To his credit, he did pour huge amounts of his family's fortune into building the extra circuit and added facilities. I didn't get an answer to my earlier query about any public funds invested in that project, but I assume they were minimal.
I feel that Bernie and F1 managers themselves are mostly to blame for utterly failing to understand the US market since at least 1983. George was in no way responsible for the 2005 Michelin tire fiasco when 6 cars took the start. It is extremely hard to convince spectators that this is the world premier racing series, when this happens.

Tony George did promote NASCAR races sucessfully and his own 500, so he has some experience there. I believe you said previously that 100,000 spectators was not failure. I agree, and maintain that given time and some financial breaks from Bernie, The USGP could have been at least modestly sucessful at Indianapolis.


I agree. The tire fiasco killed the interest they was there and growing. With so many fans of other series in the US, they need to really promote races well and deliver. F1 has few of the things NASCAR delivers, so even a good race doesn't see nearly as much action. The same goes for Indy Car and some other series as well.