Red Bull screw Webber, once again.

[Koz]

Pitting him so early on primes...

So much for being equal BS, when Seb already has a c'ship...

Great job.

Well done, Mark - you've signed a new contract and you are now Vettel's little Bitch. Congratulations.

[vhatever]

Wah, wah, wah, wah is all I read. They still want to win races, which webber has shown this year he is incapable of.

[Koz]

Wah, wah, wah, wah is all I read.

So costing Webber not only second but probably also 3rd place isn't screwing him?

[vhatever]

So costing Webber not only second but probably also 3rd place isn't screwing him?

Yes, everything wrong in webber's life/career is due to redbull. wah, wah, wah.

[ioan]

I'm no Webber fan, but today's decision was stupid.

[vhatever]

You guys don't even know if he asked to come in.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I still think Hamilton would have increased the gap on new tyres if Webber had stayed out. So this is really a nothing story.

OMG! I agree with Vhatever!!! :eek:

[ioan]

You guys don't even know if he asked to come in.

Do you?

[Koz]

You guys don't even know if he asked to come in.

They did. It was mentioned by someone (Ted, I think?)

Webber, apparently, repeatedly asked RBR if they were sure that he should pit.

[Kevincal]

Last year Mark tried to fight the Red Bull giant. This year they have convinced him to be the #2. I think he realizes it's only down from RBR, no use in fighting, just make loads of money and get some podiums and be sebs little biotch. :D It does rub me the wrong way when I see seb with helmut or horner, you can just tell they are all so giddy with each other. Then whenver I see Webber with these 3, the mood just seems kinda uncomfortable. But you can tell Webber is now content with where he is, but the team orders crap really does ruin the sport of racing. I would much rather watch gripping racing than watch another schumacher type kid rack up records. So FIA, you need to go back to banning team orders and be even more strict on it than ever.

[vhatever]

They did. It was mentioned by someone (Ted, I think?)

Webber, apparently, repeatedly asked RBR if they were sure that he should pit.


There were none played in the US feed, and it sounds like there was none played for you, either. Nothing more than fantasy, then.

[vhatever]

Last year Mark tried to fight the Red Bull giant. This year they have convinced him to be the #2. I think he realizes it's only down from RBR, no use in fighting, just make loads of money and get some podiums and be sebs little biotch. :D It does rub me the wrong way when I see seb with helmut or horner, you can just tell they are all so giddy with each other. Then whenver I see Webber with these 3, the mood just seems kinda uncomfortable. But you can tell Webber is now content with where he is, but the team orders crap really does ruin the sport of racing. I would much rather watch gripping racing than watch another schumacher type kid rack up records. So FIA, you need to go back to banning team orders and be even more strict on it than ever.


You mean possibly the greatest F1 driver of all time Schumacher was "allowed" win races? heh.

[ioan]

There were none played in the US feed, and it sounds like there was none played for you, either. Nothing more than fantasy, then.

He's fantasy is as good as yours.

[vhatever]

He's fantasy is as good as yours.

I don't presume something happened with zero proof.

[ioan]

I don't presume something happened with zero proof.

They always discuss strategy with the driver before a pit stop, it's called common sense and it's worth more than any fantasy.

[vhatever]

They always discuss strategy with the driver before a pit stop.

And what of it?

[ioan]

And what of it?

I don't know, you tell us, you're the one with the fantasy.

[Koz]

There were none played in the US feed, and it sounds like there was none played for you, either. Nothing more than fantasy, then.

Ted Kravitz would be the BBC pit lane presenter...

[vhatever]

You did presume nothing was said about the pitstop decison on the BBC feed though even when it was stated there had been.

I didn't "presume" anything. I said you have no idea of what was said unless you heard the transmissions.

So where are the transmissions? Why did they not have them on the US feed. Sounds like they didn't have them on the BBC feed, either.

[Dave B]

Oh good grief.

Webber, lord bless him, is a superb racing driver who on his day is plenty capable of getting pole and winning races. However, the uncomfortable truth for his supporters (myself included) is that Vettel is simply... better.

[vhatever]

Ted Kravitz mentioned it from the pitlane report. The transmissions were not made public on the coverage but his freedom around the pitlane means he gets the information direct from the horses mouth.

He can't even hear webber from the pitlane, genius,

[ioan]

Guys the fact is that the decision, in hindsight or not, was wrong. And Webber's silence at the end of the race was deafening.

[vhatever]

He can approach the Red Bull guys on the pit wall though and ask what happened. He can also hear half a conversation if he's in the right place. Kravitz isn't usually a guy who makes things up for fun.

If so, surely there will be after-race inquiries made of webber and such, Let's hear what webber has to say about it. ?If nothing is said about it, then clearly teddie boy is making crap up or just hearing what he wants to hear.

[Mia 01]

At the PC Mark expressed that it was the wrong decision to pit him the same lap as Lewis.

[ioan]

He needed the jump on Lewis through the pit stop and he was certainly annoyed the team got it wrong. He couldn't get past Lewis when he was in the faster car which must also be playing on his mind.

Looked like the RBR didn't have enough traction in the slow corners and luckily he couldn't use the DRS (which I despise anyway).
Webber's only chance was before the last pit stop and he had the pace to go for it at that point.

I guess they tried the same strategy they used for Vettel around mid season when they pitted him in the last lap at the same time with his opposition and they managed to pull it off. Stupid and very risky strategy that will not work every time.

[ioan]

At the PC Mark expressed that it was the wrong decision to pit him the same lap as Lewis.

And for once I fully agree with him.

[vhatever]

I very much doubt Webber will make public his conversations with the team other than his dismay at them not listening to him. Ted is a respectable guy and I would be inclined to take what he has reported at face value rather than believeing conspiracy theories on F1 threads I must admit.

Ya, webber never makes public his issues within the team. ROFLMAO.


The reality is, teddie numbnutz is a guy paid to find/look for controversy. No one has presented the transmissions and none has even specifically recounted what teddie actually said. Webber has yet to mention anything about it being the teams call to pull him in.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Webber just said on the BBC forum that he was confused by the decision to bring him in because the tyres were still good.

His tyres might have been good, but they wouldn't have been as good as Hamiltons new tyres.

[vhatever]

Webber just said on the BBC forum that he was confused by the decision to bring him in because the tyres were still good.

His tyres might have been good, but they wouldn't have been as good as Hamiltons new tyres.


That's interesting you say that because one of the speed TV guys mentioned something about odd wear patterns on one of webber's rear tires shortly before he was pulled in.

[Koz]

That's interesting you say that because one of the speed TV guys mentioned something about odd wear patterns on one of webber's rear tires shortly before he was pulled in.

So basically, you have gone from "I know more than TV guys, they are all BS and paid to find controversy" to "TV guys know more than the driver himself"...

You need some trolling lessons, bro.

[jens]

Red Bull and Webber failed to find a way past Hamilton, but I am struggling to see, what has this got anything to do with Vettel and favouring? :confused:

[vhatever]

Red Bull and Webber failed to find a way past Hamilton, but I am struggling to see, what has this got anything to do with Vettel and favouring? :confused:

Not a thing, but that's never stopped the vettel-hating bigots before. They live in some alternative reality, divorced of logic or reason.

[F1boat]

Oh good grief.

Webber, lord bless him, is a superb racing driver who on his day is plenty capable of getting pole and winning races. However, the uncomfortable truth for his supporters (myself included) is that Vettel is simply... better.

This...

[Koz]

Red Bull and Webber failed to find a way past Hamilton, but I am struggling to see, what has this got anything to do with Vettel and favouring? :confused:

Well, I had assumed that had Webber (correctly or otherwise) stayed out for another 4-5 laps, he could have made it to the end with a fresh set of Options, unlike Vettel who had to run Prime and would have pushed him rather hard towards the end of the race. IIRC, Vettel wasn't that far ahead and I am certain Webber on options could have caught up to him. Hence the conspiracy theory.

It has happened several times this season, that when Webber approaches Vettel he is told to slow down etc; which is where I am coming from.

[Koz]

Not a thing, but that's never stopped the vettel-hating bigots before.

Have I ever indicated any sort of hate towards Vettel?



They live in some alternative reality, divorced of logic or reason.

Nope, that's just you.

[wedge]

Webber just said on the BBC forum that he was confused by the decision to bring him in because the tyres were still good.

His tyres might have been good, but they wouldn't have been as good as Hamiltons new tyres.

Seems like hindsight is a wonderful thing. Should've had the balls to stay out if was that damn sure.

[Kevincal]

Let me ask this, how can Vettel and Webber be almost equal on points last year, but this year Vettel blows mark away? Is that not just a little fishy? Why did Mark have so many mysterious "mechanical" problems early this season while Vettel had none? There really is some bull**** happening at RBR. Marko and Horner are so much in love with Vettel, as is Red Bull. There is a conspiracy against Mark, seems obvious to me. You can also see how Mark doesnt care anymore. Team orders and preferences to one driver over another are ruining F1. Just compare last year to this year, last year was incredible, team orders were banned, this year was boring, team orders are not banned. The reason Vettel was able to run away with the championship is cus they neutered Mark from the get go. If he were let to fight Seb this year would have been much closer in points. I really hope they do away with team orders again very soon. I hope everyone can see this.

To be fair, its the same at Ferrari, they screw Felipe over for Fernando whenever the opportunitey arrises. Mclaren it seems is the only top team that does not enforce any team orders, as evidenced by 2007, 2010 and this year. Good on them.

[vhatever]

Let me ask this, how can Vettel and Webber be almost equal on points last year, but this year Vettel blows mark away? Is that not just a little fishy? Why did Mark have so many mysterious "mechanical" problems early this season while Vettel had none? There really is some bull**** happening at RBR. Marko and Horner are so much in love with Vettel, as is Red Bull. There is a conspiracy against Mark, seems obvious to me. You can also see how Mark doesnt care anymore. Team orders and preferences to one driver over another are ruining F1. Just compare last year to this year, last year was incredible, team orders were banned, this year was boring, team orders are not banned. The reason Vettel was able to run away with the championship is cus they neutered Mark from the get go. If he were let to fight Seb this year would have been much closer in points. I really hope they do away with team orders again very soon. I hope everyone can see this.

To be fair, its the same at Ferrari, they screw Felipe over for Fernando whenever the opportunitey arrises. Mclaren it seems is the only top team that does not enforce any team orders, as evidenced by 2007, 2010 and this year. Good on them.


webber isn't "screwed over", he might be the luckiest man on earth to be where he is with what little talent he has. He simply isn't fit to change Seb's tires. Get over it.

No one was crying for vettel last season or the previous getting screwed over almost every race by bad redbull decisions and/or mechanical problems. also, vettel did have a bunch of problems early this year with DRS and KERS. He persevered and still managed to win/pole with the problems. You just CHOSE to ignore them, just like you CHOSE to ignore them last year and instead thinking that vttel's bad luck = webber's "skill".

[F1boat]

webber isn't "screwed over", he might be the luckiest man on earth to be where he is with what little talent he has. He simply isn't fit to change Seb's tires. Get over it.

No one was crying for vettel last season or the previous getting screwed over almost every race by bad redbull decisions and/or mechanical problems. also, vettel did have a bunch of problems early this year with DRS and KERS. He persevered and still managed to win/pole with the problems. You just CHOSE to ignore them, just like you CHOSE to ignore them last year and instead thinking that vttel's bad luck = webber's "skill".

+1 And the whole rant is because McLaren lost...

[Cooper_S]

ha ha ha ha ha ha... threads like this are sooooooooo funny.

The important thing is it was win 10 for the double WDC.... ;)

[MadDan]

I can't think of any real Vettel haters on here, theres not much to dislike about the chap really is there? People sometimes question the technological advantage of Red Bull but suggesting people are bigots and haters is a little uncalled for. Come on now. :down:

technological advantage ?
i do wonder if there is or if Vettel is f1's casey stoner look at what rossi has had to say about stoner in the past few years about him being on the best bike

[Bezza]

Oh good grief.

Webber, lord bless him, is a superb racing driver who on his day is plenty capable of getting pole and winning races. However, the uncomfortable truth for his supporters (myself included) is that Vettel is simply... better.

I agree, Vettel is better, and Webber has regressed this year.

However, on of the couple of occasions where Webber has been in contention, Red Bull have stopped him fighting Vettel. Once at Silverstone, and here at Korea.

Personally I think they should ban team radio - except for messages such as "safety car" and "yellow flag ahead" etc. The drivers should rely on pitboard, and their own skill and tactical nous to win races.

[Bolton Midnight]

Hamilton > Webber

the end

[tfp]

Let me ask this, how can Vettel and Webber be almost equal on points last year, but this year Vettel blows mark away? Is that not just a little fishy? Why did Mark have so many mysterious "mechanical" problems early this season while Vettel had none? There really is some bull**** happening at RBR. Marko and Horner are so much in love with Vettel, as is Red Bull. There is a conspiracy against Mark, seems obvious to me. You can also see how Mark doesnt care anymore. Team orders and preferences to one driver over another are ruining F1. Just compare last year to this year, last year was incredible, team orders were banned, this year was boring, team orders are not banned. The reason Vettel was able to run away with the championship is cus they neutered Mark from the get go. If he were let to fight Seb this year would have been much closer in points. I really hope they do away with team orders again very soon. I hope everyone can see this.

To be fair, its the same at Ferrari, they screw Felipe over for Fernando whenever the opportunitey arrises. Mclaren it seems is the only top team that does not enforce any team orders, as evidenced by 2007, 2010 and this year. Good on them.

Agree entirely with this.
There were 5 race winners last year. there are 4 this year. The only one who hasnt won a race this year is the team mate of the driver who has had by far the most victories this season. his is a no brainer for me.

[DexDexter]

Agree entirely with this.
There were 5 race winners last year. there are 4 this year. The only one who hasnt won a race this year is the team mate of the driver who has had by far the most victories this season. his is a no brainer for me.

Hardly a no brainer. Could it simply be that Vettel, after winning the WDC , is jus a bit better than last year? He is a young, still developing driver who won the WDC.
That tends to make you better, give you more confidence. No need bring up these stupid conspiracy theories which have no foundation.

[Dave B]

Hardly a no brainer. Could it simply be that Vettel, after winning the WDC , is jus a bit better than last year? He is a young, still developing driver who won the WDC.
That tends to make you better, give you more confidence. No need bring up these stupid conspiracy theories which have no foundation.
Indeed. How often have we heard it said that winning your first race or championship is like a cork popping, with drivers going on to even more success. It's the difference between believing you can win - which all top drivers surely do - and knowing you can win. Don't underestimate the boost that gives a driver's confidence.

[SGWilko]

They live in some alternative reality, divorced of logic or reason.

Slough?

[SGWilko]

I can't think of any real Vettel haters on here, theres not much to dislike about the chap really is there? People sometimes question the technological advantage of Red Bull but suggesting people are bigots and haters is a little uncalled for. Come on now. :down:

Bigot was always one of Tamb's favourites....

[Dave B]

Bigot was always one of Tamb's favourites....

Vhatever hapenned to him? I miss the old fella... :s tareup:

[SGWilko]

From the horses mouth;


If things had worked out, I should have been able to clear him by staying out longer before my second pit stop. Had that happened, I would have had a chance of going after Seb.

But the team were very keen for me to stop on the lap I did. They said they wanted to use my speed on new tyres to jump Lewis in the usual way - by changing tyres before him. But it turned out the lap I stopped was the same time as Lewis.

Following your competitor into the pits is one of the most frustrating things for a driver. It meant we were still stuck behind him and it was very hard to pass. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/15376777.stm)

[Koz]

Ah well, he dug his own grave re-signing for RBR.

Live with glory or with glory die.

[tfp]

Hardly a no brainer. Could it simply be that Vettel, after winning the WDC , is jus a bit better than last year? He is a young, still developing driver who won the WDC.
That tends to make you better, give you more confidence. No need bring up these stupid conspiracy theories which have no foundation.

Ok, I understand Seb Vettel almost certainly is a better driver all round than last year. But Mark Webber, in a league below what he was last year? Come on, I dont buy it one bit.

[Knock-on]

Vhatever hapenned to him? I miss the old fella... :s tareup:

Can't we just start a thread where Tamburello and Bolton midnight have a disagreement and leave the rest of the forum in peace?

Kill two Trolls with one stone :s

[BDunnell]

Can't we just start a thread where Tamburello and Bolton midnight have a disagreement and leave the rest of the forum in peace?

Kill two Trolls with one stone :s

Don't forget, we are all trolls according to the latter gentleman when one suggests that his opinions may lack that final bit of research.

[Koz]

Don't forget, we are all trolls according to the latter gentleman when one suggests that his opinions may lack that final bit of research.

:rotflmao:

[CaptainRaiden]

Oh dear, the conspiracy theorists are out in full force again. I'm not a Vettel OR a Webber fan, so just a quick few unbiased and LOGICAL points:

1. There is no sabotage or "screwing". You're delusional if you think sabotaging exists in F1: An F1 team doesn't pay millions to get a car on the grid and then sabotage it. :rolleyes: Are they so damn confident and arrogant that they'll win the constructors title at the end of the year, that they'll start sabotaging Mark's car at the beginning of the season?!? WTF?
2. They don't have to pay Webber's several million dollars salary to screw him in the end. They could do that just as easily with any chump from GP2 or F3 with loads of sponsor money behind him, and for a tenth of Webber's salary.
3. The tyres this year are "Pirelli" which are, wait for it, DIFFERENT than the Bridgestones, i.e. completely different behavior i.e different grip i.e. driving style altering different i.e. NOT Bridgestone! Webber has admitted he's been struggling with the new tyres all year long. Why is it so annoyingly and ridiculously impossible for his fans to accept?
4. Vettel is just a better driver. Yes, 2010 was a more equal year, but you've got to factor in mechanical failures and the fact that Vettel has been maturing all this time, and perhaps now has realized his full potential. Also, I don't think Webber is the lapdog type. If he doesn't like it, I'm sure he can find a drive with any number of teams.

And in the end the most important one. The team doesn't have to screw their driver and let a driver from another team finish ahead. They could have gotten him ahead of Lewis, and then told him to hold position and not attack Vettel just as easily. Red Bull effed up their strategy, it was just a bloody coincidence Lewis came in at the same time, plain and simple. End of story.

[Koz]

And in the end the most important one. The team doesn't have to screw their driver and let a driver from another team finish ahead. They could have gotten him ahead of Lewis, and then told him to hold position and not attack Vettel just as easily. Red Bull effed up their strategy, it was just a bloody coincidence Lewis came in at the same time, plain and simple. End of story.

So what you are saying is Red Bull did not know Lewis was coming in on that lap?
Is that what you are saying?

Are you also saying RBR's strategists are infantile degenerates who do not understand the concept of race strategy?
Maybe someone should be sacked, and someone from this forum be hired in his stead.

I'd say all of us here would have made the right call in that shi-tuation.

I started this thread as soon as they pit Webber because it was obvious at that very moment that his race was screwed. I simply cannot comprehend how anyone could have expected a different result from that.

And Webber has essentially repeated EXACTLY what I said, essentially word for word. (post #45)
He's paranoid because of toxic glue on his rolling paper, too?

[CaptainRaiden]

So what you are saying is Red Bull did not know Lewis was coming in on that lap?
Is that what you are saying?

Is there little room in your conspiracy ridden F1 world to allow the possibility that:
A: Mclaren could have anticipated Red Bull's move and sprung a last minute pit-stop to keep position? Teams have done that in the past several times.
B: As MW said he was having constant radio chats discussing the pit stop several laps before. Are you saying that Red Bull knew the exact lap Lewis was coming in, and called Webber in at the same lap to screw his race, to make sure Mclaren stay ahead?!? :laugh: Even with the most elaborate conspiracy theory, this would be a bit of a stretch, don't you think?


Are you also saying RBR's strategists are infantile degenerates who do not understand the concept of race strategy?
Maybe someone should be sacked, and someone from this forum be hired in his stead.

They have made quite a few really moronic calls in the last 3 seasons, so this doesn't surprise me.


I'd say all of us here would have made the right call in that shi-tuation.

In hindsight, sure. In hindsight, I would have driven better than Lewis in that Mclaren, closed the gap to Vettel and then overtaken him in dramatic fashion on the last corner of the last lap.


And Webber has essentially repeated EXACTLY what I said, essentially word for word. (post #45)
He's paranoid because of toxic glue on his rolling paper, too?

Yes, Webber said the pit stop was a wrong move, twice in the post race press conference. He never hinted there was a conspiracy. You know why? Because it doesn't make "SENSE". Vettel wrapped up his title a race ago, and Red Bull were pretty much guaranteed the constructor's title. They gain absolutely nothing by screwing Webber's race, UNLESS in your conspiracy ridden movie world, it's just a cruel Austrian outfit which derives pleasure from tormenting their poor Australian driver?

Besides like I said before, team orders are allowed this year. They could have gotten Webber in front and just told him to hold position and not attack Vettel. It would really be incredibly stupid for an F1 team to sacrifice 2nd on a podium JUST so that the mighty Webber doesn't attack Vettel. Do you know how much bonus a team gets for a 2nd place podium, in fact also a 1-2?

On top of all this, who knows if Webber would have been able to attack Vettel once he'd gotten past Lewis? Vettel was the fastest man in the fastest car pretty much dictating the pace at the front, pulling out fastest laps out of his bag when he wanted to. When Webber hasn't been able to match Vettel all year, what makes people so sure that he would have done something now?

In the end it was 50-50 IMO. Webber couldn't get it done on track, i.e. get past Lewis, when Vettel did in the same car eons ago, and then the unfortunate pit-stop put the final nail in the coffin.

Webber fans, please don't behave like Alonso fans, still in denial that he wasn't beaten by a rookie, but that the team sabotaged him. :laugh:

[SGWilko]

Ron Dennis only hired Fernando Alonso back in 2007 so he could give him an uncompetitive car and make sure he wasn't a rival for the WDC!! lol. Apparently this chap knew someone at McLaren who told him this in confidence.

You mean that.... that's not true?

:eek: wahhhhh :bigcry: :bigcry:

:laugh:

[CaptainRaiden]

I once encountered a chap on another forum who swore blind Ron Dennis only hired Fernando Alonso back in 2007 so he could give him an uncompetitive car and make sure he wasn't a rival for the WDC!! lol. Apparently this chap knew someone at McLaren who told him this in confidence. Conspiracy theories are highly amusing especially when the person telling them is obviously winging it. What makes them even more funny is when the person telling them also pretends to be an ex F1 worker which they think somehow boosts their point of view... Nah..lol :)

Oh hell, there are such posters on this forum too. Just mention how Alonso was beaten by a rookie, and watch them come forward with Mclaren/Ron Dennis British team/British driver conspiracy theories.

What I really don't understand, and can't possibly comprehend is the kind of dream world some people believe exists, where teams just fart huge money on an hourly basis so that they can pay millions to designers, engineers, mechanics, rent wind tunnels, invest in R&D, pay millions in driver salaries, transport F1 cars all around the world, making sure they don't get even one scratch, pay almost a fortune in transportation and customs fees, and then sabotage the car come race day OR screw the driver they like less. :laugh: Also keeping in mind how much money they make PER POINT in Formula 1 at the end of the year.

There's a reason why lapdog contracts existed in F1, the one which Barrichello signed during his time at Ferrari, which is the team essentially saying "We can't screw you every race, so you just have to accept Michael is the number one driver, and stay behind him!"

[airshifter]

[quote="Koz"]I'd say all of us here would have made the right call in that shi-tuation.

I started this thread as soon as they pit Webber because it was obvious at that very moment that his race was screwed. I simply cannot comprehend how anyone could have expected a different result from that.

QUOTE]

Webbers race was screwed because he didn't have the racecraft to get past Lewis and make it stick. You make it sound as if McLaren posted their pit strategy on the internet and broadcast it. I'm sure in hindsight that Red Bull would have changed the strategy, but when Mark hit the pit lane behind Lewis it was a done deal for making the pass due to tire advantage.

Your suggestion is that RB screwed Webber, but with Sebastian already WDC, what possible motivation would they have to do so especially considering that Seb was already solid in 1st place? I'm sure RB (or any other team on the grid for that matter) would have loved to have the photo opportunity and bragging rights having their cars finish 1-2 in the race that wrapped up the constructors championship.

[Mia 01]

Theres lot of Lewis and Fred fans who want´s Mark to take points of Seb, an if that not happens something must be wrong.

To those, take of your tin foil hats please.

Seb is better than Mark, better than Lewis and soon a three time WDC.

[CaptainRaiden]

Seb is better than Mark, better than Lewis and soon a three time WDC.

Hmm, a very detailed and well thought out statement. :up:

I would like to know what is your expert opinion on how good Vettel is compared to Kimi Raikkonen?

[Koz]

Is there little room in your conspiracy ridden F1 world to allow the possibility that:
A: Mclaren could have anticipated Red Bull's move and sprung a last minute pit-stopto keep position? Teams have done that in the past several times.

Why would RBR pit Webber before Lewis pit?
Webber was on primes, Lewis was on options. Their first stop was around the same time.
And as Webber said, he had plenty of time left in the tyres. There was no logical reason to pit, if waiting another 3-5 laps would have allowed Webber to get on OPTION tyres and thus have a 0.5-0.7s per lap advantage.



B: As MW said he was having constant radio chats discussing the pit stop several laps before. [b]Are you saying that Red Bull knew the exact lap Lewis was coming in[b], and called Webber in at the same lap to screw his race, to make sure Mclaren stay ahead?!?

No, but they would have known Lewis being on Options he would have to pit first.
The reason for this was not to prevent Webber from finishing behind Lewis, but rather to prevent Webber from racing Seb.


In hindsight, sure.
So you are saying, in hindsight it's better to pit a driver early and make him driver on another set of Prime instead a set of options that would last the remainder of the race?

You don't need hindsight or a be a rocket scientist to figure that much out. It's common sense.




Besides like I said before, team orders are allowed this year. They could have gotten Webber in front and just told him to hold position and not attack Vettel.
Team orders, yes, the ones Webber didn't follow in Silverstone. Do you think he would follow them when the c'ship is already decided?


On top of all this, who knows if Webber would have been able to attack Vettel once he'd gotten past Lewis? Vettel was the fastest man in the fastest car pretty much dictating the pace at the front, pulling out fastest laps out of his bag when he wanted to. When Webber hasn't been able to match Vettel all year, what makes people so sure that he would have done something now?
So you don't think that Webber, in the remaining in the remaining 15-16 laps (assuming he pitted a few laps later) with OPTION tyres could have close down a ~10 second gap?

[Koz]

Webbers race was screwed because he didn't have the racecraft to get past Lewis and make it stick. You make it sound as if McLaren posted their pit strategy on the internet and broadcast it. I'm sure in hindsight that Red Bull would have changed the strategy, but when Mark hit the pit lane behind Lewis it was a done deal for making the pass due to tire advantage.

Lewis was on option, hence he would have to pit earlier than Webber - is that so hard to understand?
All they had to do is wait.


Your suggestion is that RB screwed Webber, but with Sebastian already WDC, what possible motivation would they have to do so especially considering that Seb was already solid in 1st place? I'm sure RB (or any other team on the grid for that matter) would have loved to have the photo opportunity and bragging rights having their cars finish 1-2 in the race that wrapped up the constructors championship.

I don't know. Maybe to get Vettel a tie in the record for most wins in a season?
It seems unlikely though.

[DexDexter]

Ok, I understand Seb Vettel almost certainly is a better driver all round than last year. But Mark Webber, in a league below what he was last year? Come on, I dont buy it one bit.

Why don't you buy that? Drivers have good and bad seasons. Räikkönen, for example, won the WDC in 2007 and wasn't at his best in 2008. Hamilton has had a bad season yet he is a WDC as well. Besides, Webber is 35 years old so he isn't a developing driver any more.

[CaptainRaiden]

Why would RBR pit Webber before Lewis pit?
Webber was on primes, Lewis was on options. Their first stop was around the same time.
And as Webber said, he had plenty of time left in the tyres. There was no logical reason to pit, if waiting another 3-5 laps would have allowed Webber to get on OPTION tyres and thus have a 0.5-0.7s per lap advantage.

Ever considered the most obvious reason, that Webber was losing a truckload of time behind Lewis? Red Bull tried to use the undercut, to pit Webber early and get him out on a clear track, so that he could put in some fast laps and then be in front of Lewis when he makes his stop. Of course the plan failed spectacularly because Mclaren decided to pit on the same lap as well. If your driver, in a faster car, was losing almost a second a lap stuck behind a slower car, what would your strategy be? Webber was obviously incapable of getting past Lewis, what other option was there? Wait for Lewis to pit, which they had no idea when, and lose even more time??



No, but they would have known Lewis being on Options he would have to pit first.
The reason for this was not to prevent Webber from finishing behind Lewis, but rather to prevent Webber from racing Seb.

That's simply your opinion. I simply find it absolutely absurd that a team would sacrifice a possible 1-2 just so that their top 2 drivers won't race, and happily gift a position to a rival team, especially when the drivers championship was over. WTF? Does it make any sense to you? Are you aware of the amount of money a Formula 1 team makes PER POINT?



So you are saying, in hindsight it's better to pit a driver early and make him driver on another set of Prime instead a set of options that would last the remainder of the race?

You don't need hindsight or a be a rocket scientist to figure that much out. It's common sense.

So, you would rather have your driver, who was the fastest man on the track, already losing time behind a slower car, spend some more laps behind it waiting for it to make a pit stop? It's a good thing none of the F1 teams need your services ATM.



Team orders, yes, the ones Webber didn't follow in Silverstone. Do you think he would follow them when the c'ship is already decided?

Well, actually he did follow them. Did he threaten to overtake Vettel at Silverstone? Yes. Did he make a dangerous or desperate move to overtake Vettel? No. So yes, he did hold position and follow team orders at Silverstone.


So you don't think that Webber, in the remaining in the remaining 15-16 laps (assuming he pitted a few laps later) with OPTION tyres could have close down a ~10 second gap?

Are you 100% sure he would have? He couldn't even get past Lewis in a slower Mclaren. What makes you think he would have chased and gotten past Vettel in a faster Red Bull, who was consistently pulling a second a lap on Lewis?!? :crazy: BTW, the fastest lap of the race belongs to Vettel on the last lap, which means he was simply pacing himself, and would have turned the wick up if needed.

[CaptainRaiden]

Webber couldn't get past a slower McLaren for 22 laps so I doubt he would have got past a car that was matched for pace.

^ This. Nail - hit - head.

[airshifter]

Webber couldn't get past a slower McLaren for 22 laps so I doubt he would have got past a car that was matched for pace.

Now it all makes sense. Webber couldn't get past Hamilton, but he was challenging for 1st place, that being the driver faster than Hamilton! :laugh:

[Mia 01]

Hmm, a very detailed and well thought out statement. :up:

I would like to know what is your expert opinion on how good Vettel is compared to Kimi Raikkonen?

Perhaps Kimi will be teammate with Seb 2013.

[donKey jote]

back to Ferrari? I don't think so :p

[Bolton Midnight]

Ah well, he dug his own grave re-signing for RBR.


He's bloody lucky they offered him an extension, they should have sacked him and signed Di Resta for 2012.

MW is pants, not fit to lace LH, FA, JB, RK, SV, NR boots

[ioan]

He's bloody lucky they offered him an extension, they should have sacked him and signed Di Resta for 2012.

MW is pants, not fit to lace LH, FA, JB, RK, SV, NR boots

Who's RK and how good is she/he at lacing boots?

As for NR he's never got close to Webber's race craft.

[BDunnell]

Who's RK and how good is she/he at lacing boots?

I think he means Kubica.

[ioan]

I think he means Kubica.

Bolton chose a very bad moment to mention him in comparisons with other drivers capabilities, even when it comes to boot lacing.

[TheFamousEccles]

He's bloody lucky they offered him an extension, they should have sacked him and signed Di Resta for 2012.

MW is pants, not fit to lace LH, FA, JB, RK, SV, NR boots

Yet more sage words and comedy gold from Bolton Midnight! Give him a big hand, Ladies and Gentlemen. And not a partisan opinion in sight. Oh, except for the Di Resta bit.

[Bolton Midnight]

I think Bolton was insinuating Webber would be doing the boot lacing not Robert Kubica. If you read the post properly rather than skipping through it I think you'll understand.

exactly

[Bolton Midnight]

Who's RK and how good is she/he at lacing boots?

As for NR he's never got close to Webber's race craft.

Says it all really doesn't it..............

Nico > Webber FACT


And not a partisan opinion in sight.

I'm not Spanish, German, Polish doh

[Mia 01]

Says it all really doesn't it..............

Nico > Webber FACT


I'm not Spanish, German, Polish doh

I´m afraid that is an opinion I can´t agree with. In my opinion Nico soon have to prove himself.

[jens]

But Mark Webber, in a league below what he was last year? Come on, I dont buy it one bit.

Different rules influence the performance of drivers. If you have noticed, Hamilton, Barrichello and Rosberg have been performing worse than last year as well. So yes, it is entirely normal to change "league" within one year.

Actually the race pace of Webber has been good on several occasions this year, matching Vettel in that. But qualis and bad starts have been a let-down, so that he has had no chance of catching Seb in the race then. And unlike 2010, Vettel hasn't been making random mistakes (like behind SC in Hungary) or suffering car problems, so he has given no opportunities for Webber to capitalize and somehow end up in front of him - well, except at the Nürburgring. Japan, Korea, China, Germany, Belgium, Malaysia - all were occasions, where Webber was fast in races. Doesn't remind a driver, whose car has been deliberately handicapped! Well, except KERS issues in some early races, but Vettel had them too.

As for Silverstone '11, let me tell you honestly. If I was a team boss, I wouldn't let my drivers race on the final lap of the race either, especially if they are on course for big points. And I think it applies to all team bosses. Recall McLaren, Turkey 2010, "fuel saving" (which Button apparently wasn't informed about in time), but where was the cry that Hamilton was being favoured?



Webber couldn't get past a slower McLaren for 22 laps so I doubt he would have got past a car that was matched for pace.

Cars have different setups. McLaren's top speed was too high for DRS-zone, but if Vettel had the same setup as Webber, the Australian could have made it in the DRS-zone. Provided he would have been able to catch Vettel, that is.

[Bolton Midnight]

I´m afraid that is an opinion I can´t agree with. In my opinion Nico soon have to prove himself.

In equal cars Nico would own Webber easily, he's not that far of in the vastly inferior Mercedes so with a decent car he'd be well ahead of him.

MW is very much 2nd division.

[DexDexter]

In equal cars Nico would own Webber easily, he's not that far of in the vastly inferior Mercedes so with a decent car he'd be well ahead of him.

MW is very much 2nd division.

So Nico is better than Vettel since Webber "owned" Vettel last year with about two races to go :p :

[Bolton Midnight]

So Nico is better than Vettel since Webber "owned" Vettel last year with about two races to go :p :

Leave off the drugs, MW has never 'owned' SV never ever

I'd expect such claptrap from an Auusie but not a Finn FFS

[DexDexter]

Leave off the drugs, MW has never 'owned' SV never ever

I'd expect such claptrap from an Auusie but not a Finn FFS

Are you saying that Mark Webber didn't lead the championship right at the end?

[Bolton Midnight]

Are you saying that Mark Webber didn't lead the championship right at the end?

If he had he'd be World Champion wouldn't he; as that is when they crown them, at the end, see?

[jens]

If he had he'd be World Champion wouldn't he; as that is when they crown them, at the end, see?

World Champion or not, but how was he able to get into the lead of a championship at all if he was no good?

[Bolton Midnight]

World Champion or not, but how was he able to get into the lead of a championship at all if he was no good?

Best car by a country mile, next............

[Dave B]

Red Bull are screwing Mark, are they?



Speaking about the prospect ahead of the Indian Grand Prix, team principal Christian Horner said that the outfit would prefer Webber to earn the runner-up position himself but says that switching places was not totally out of the question.

"I think that from a team perspective we will do everything we can tohelp Mark," said Horner. "It is a conversation we would need to have with the drivers, but I am sure Mark would want to achieve it under his own merit. I am not sure he would like to be given something, but I am quite sure if asked the question, Sebastian would be willing to do that."

Source: Red Bull happy to use team orders to help Webber finish second in championship - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95702)

Didn't think so.

[tfp]

We will see next year. Personally, I hope Webber outpaces Vettel without the help of the team.
It is fair to say, Webber has had a poor season, like jens said maybe he diddnt get a good feel with this years car or something, and after all, he has made many more mistakes than Vettel this season.
On the other hand, there is blatant favouritism from RBR from the start, after they earned so much respect from everyone for winning the drivers and constructors championship in 2010 WITHOUT using team orders.

[Bolton Midnight]

We will see next year. Personally, I hope Webber outpaces Vettel without the help of the team.


Is that a pig I see in the sky?

[Kevincal]

laughing my ass off, oh sure after the fact that RBR screwed Webber all season to the point that vettel wins with many races left NOW they are all like "oh sure NOW we will help Mark LMAO". watch again in 2012 Webber will have all kinds of mysterious car problems and Vettel will have absolutely no problems again. team orders and BS need to be banned pronto to save the sport. we cant have a guy winning the championship with several races left it just ruins the whole series. Mark and Seb need to be allowed to battle again like in 2010. 2010 F1 was thrilling, 2011 was freaking boring and horrible. Sure more passing but it was fake passing with no skill required. push a button to pass, whooptie doo. And team orders galore everywhere since its no longer banned. ugh.

[tfp]

laughing my ass off, oh sure after the fact that RBR screwed Webber all season to the point that vettel wins with many races left NOW they are all like "oh sure NOW we will help Mark LMAO". watch again in 2012 Webber will have all kinds of mysterious car problems and Vettel will have absolutely no problems again. team orders and BS need to be banned pronto to save the sport. we cant have a guy winning the championship with several races left it just ruins the whole series. Mark and Seb need to be allowed to battle again like in 2010. 2010 F1 was thrilling, 2011 was freaking boring and horrible. Sure more passing but it was fake passing with no skill required. push a button to pass, whooptie doo. And team orders galore everywhere since its no longer banned. ugh.

I dont usually agree with or quote posts that are one rant from begginning to end, but you practically summed it up perfectly!
We need more seasons like 2010 and less like 2011.
And the DRS thing you talked about, I used to think it was a good idea. USED to :)
Before there were crazy overtakes anywhere on the track, now they're restricted to one part of the track.

[Bolton Midnight]

Worse that DRS is the fall off with the tyres, once they are shot at any Tom Dick or Webber is able to overtake.

[Garry Walker]

Anyone thinking Webbo is given a fair chance at Red Bull is too stupid to be called an inbred imbecile.

[Garry Walker]

Thats abit strong for a group of people we don't know or have ever met.

I think I was being far too kind to them.

[ioan]

Says it all really doesn't it..............

Nico > Webber FACT

Remind us their stats then! :rotflmao:

[CNR]

FORMULA ONE - F1: Horner Pays Tribute To Newey (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-christian-horner-pays-tribute-to-adrian-newey/)

Effectively these are non-championship races; all three of them we’d dearly love to win at. We’ve won the next two for the last two years, and we’ve love to do a hat trick both in Abu Dhabi and Brazil. You never lose sight of the fact that the opposition isn’t very far away.”

[DexDexter]

Anyone thinking Webbo is given a fair chance at Red Bull is too stupid to be called an inbred imbecile.

Anyone thinking that they deliberately slow his car down is an inbred imbecile. Sure they favour Vettel but the car is essentially the same and Mark had his chance to be a WDC but decided to run into Kovalainen among other mistakes. Now that Vettel is a double WDC, he just doesn't stand a chance, whether favored or not.

[SGWilko]

According to this thread, Webber has been f***ed so many times by his team he must have a Clown's Pocket down under........

[jens]

Webber was sad to watch in the Indian Grand Prix. Completely unable to keep the pace of Vettel and Button, who were running away from the field. Unable to drive away from Alonso and later in the race unable to do anything about him and attack. 4th place in a winning car. Also no higher than a measly 4th position in the points standings, while team-mate is busy replicating Schumacher's 2002/2004 seasons. At least Barrichello finished a comfortable 2nd in the championship in those seasons, not 4th.

Webber of 2011 reminds me a lot of Fisichella and Kovalainen from their stints in top team. Looking hopeless/lack of pace and even if they have pace on some occasions, circumstances don't play in their favour to bring home the desired result. Massa is also in this group. Sad to watch, because you know that all these drivers were capable of much more in their prime.

[SGWilko]

capable of much more in their prime.

Both narrowly missing out on WDC.

[Koz]

Red Bull are screwing Mark, are they?



Source: Red Bull happy to use team orders to help Webber finish second in championship - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95702)

Didn't think so.

Do anyone honestly believe that SV and RBR would pass up breaking records to help Webbo in any way shape or form?

[tfp]

Do anyone honestly believe that SV and RBR would pass up breaking records to help Webbo in any way shape or form?

Nope, not me.

[Garry Walker]

Anyone thinking that they deliberately slow his car down is an inbred imbecile. Sure they favour Vettel but the car is essentially the same and Mark had his chance to be a WDC but decided to run into Kovalainen among other mistakes. Now that Vettel is a double WDC, he just doesn't stand a chance, whether favored or not.
Where did I say he is slowed down by RB? Nice to see you admit Rapunzel is favoured by Red Bull, that is what we all wanted to hear.

[Mia 01]

They sure must screw him, Seb is a bad driver who thanks to the car beats all of that superior driver perhaps exept Jenson who also have the superior car compared to his teammate.

[DexDexter]

Where did I say he is slowed down by RB? Nice to see you admit Rapunzel is favoured by Red Bull, that is what we all wanted to hear.

Whether Vettel is favoured or not is academic because the bottom line is he is currently the better driver of the two. That's the only thing that matters. I like Mark and on his day he is a great driver but absolutely nothing suggests that someone is hindering his progress. He's just getting old while Vettel is getting better.

[Knock-on]

Where did I say he is slowed down by RB? Nice to see you admit Rapunzel is favoured by Red Bull, that is what we all wanted to hear.

I don't think many people will argue that Mark has complete parity within the team for the simple fact that Seb is quicker. If you have one new wing, you give it to the faster driver. If it's optimum to pit on lap 15, then you pit Seb on that lap and mark on 14 or 16.

That's just logical isn't it? Why would team handicap themselves by advantaging their slowest driver :confused:

However, using the optimal strategy for the fastest driver is a MILLION MILES away from purposely disadvantaging their #2 driver. They want Mark to do the very best he can for the team and will do everything they can to assist him apart from disadvantaging their #1 driver.

[Kevincal]

You look at last year and this year and its more than obvious mark is being hindered. same thing with felipe, he was #1 driver in 2008 and look how great he did, and now look how ****ty he is as #2 driver. f1 teams are dirty and only care about money and marketing and sponsers, they will screw over a driver without a second thought. most drivers stay silent about this and dont care because they are being payed so much money. mark fought the system last year like a rebel and it was great. this year the team disabled his kers or screwed his drs in most of the early races giving him zero chance to fight seb. its more than obvious.

[DexDexter]

You look at last year and this year and its more than obvious mark is being hindered. same thing with felipe, he was #1 driver in 2008 and look how great he did, and now look how ****ty he is as #2 driver. f1 teams are dirty and only care about money and marketing and sponsers, they will screw over a driver without a second thought. most drivers stay silent about this and dont care because they are being payed so much money. mark fought the system last year like a rebel and it was great. this year the team disabled his kers or screwed his drs in most of the early races giving him zero chance to fight seb. its more than obvious.

First of all, Felipe Massa has never been Ferrari's number 1 driver. Räikkönen had a terrible mid-season in 2008 and suddenly Ferrari were in a situation where their second driver was the only one with a real hope of winning the championship. The rest of your post is just typical stuff for a poster that's watched too much Fox or something. :rolleyes:

[CaptainRaiden]

f1 teams are dirty and only care about money and marketing and sponsers, they will screw over a driver without a second thought. most drivers stay silent about this and dont care because they are being payed so much money.

Wait, isn't that a bit contradicting? Why screw a driver and then pay his huge salary? Would it make any sense to you as a business owner? They could get any GP2 driver or a test driver like Ricciardo for about 5% of what they were paying Mark last year and screw him even more royally. Hell, I'll pay to drive a Red Bull, and they can mess about with the DRS or KERS on my car every race if they wanted to.

FYI they paid Webber more than double of what they paid Vettel last year. Source: List of Formula 1 driver salaries - GPUpdate.net (http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/240929/list-of-formula-1-driver-salaries/)


1 Fernando Alonso, Ferrari - €30 million
2 Lewis Hamilton, McLaren - €16 million
= Kimi Räikkönen, Ferrari - €16 million
4 Felipe Massa, Ferrari - €14 million
5 Jenson Button, McLaren - €9 million
6 Michael Schumacher, Mercedes - €8 million
= Nico Rosberg, Mercedes - €8 million
8 Robert Kubica, Renault - €7.5 million
9 Rubens Barrichello, Williams - €5.5 million
10 Mark Webber, Red Bull - €4.2 million
11 Jarno Trulli, Lotus - €3 million
12 Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull - €2 million
= Heikki Kovalainen, Lotus - €2 million
14 Timo Glock, Virgin - €1 million
15 Nico Hülkenberg, Williams – €700,000
16 Pedro de la Rosa, Sauber – €500,000
= Kamui Kobayashi, Sauber – €500,000
18 Vitaly Petrov, Renault – €400,000
= Sébastien Buemi, Toro Rosso – €400,000
= Jaime Alguersuari, Toro Rosso – €400,000
21 Adrian Sutil, Force India – €200,000
= Vitantonio Liuzzi, Force India – €200,000
= Lucas di Grassi, Virgin – €200,000
24 Bruno Senna, Hispania – €150,000

The most amazing thing about that list is Kimi getting paid 16 million euros for not driving in 2010. :crazy: How the hell does Santander make sense about this to its investors and shareholders, I have no idea.

[airshifter]

You look at last year and this year and its more than obvious mark is being hindered. same thing with felipe, he was #1 driver in 2008 and look how great he did, and now look how ****ty he is as #2 driver. f1 teams are dirty and only care about money and marketing and sponsers, they will screw over a driver without a second thought. most drivers stay silent about this and dont care because they are being payed so much money. mark fought the system last year like a rebel and it was great. this year the team disabled his kers or screwed his drs in most of the early races giving him zero chance to fight seb. its more than obvious.


I really don't understand how someone can rationalize even making such a statement. More wins = more money, regardless of which driver wins. As far as sponsors go it would make more sense to support both drivers equally. It makes even less sense that they would hinder Mark after Sebastian has already won the title and RB has already won the constructors championship.

IMO Webber simpy isn't coming to grips with the car this year, or lacks motivation after being humbled by his younger team mate last year.

[jens]

this year the team disabled his kers or screwed his drs in most of the early races giving him zero chance to fight seb. its more than obvious.

:laugh: So you say RBR disabled Mark's DRS and KERS in early season. But why is he still incapable of matching Vettel, after those devices have been enabled? :D