IRL road courses

[Subaru WRX]

even I am not a great fan of oval racing, why the IndyCar Series, has more and more road races in its scheudle ?? Infineon, the Glenn, St. Petersburg, and this year 2 others, Detroit and Mid-Ohio, both with the ALMS
is it a first step to unify both open wheel series ?
:cool:

[BenRoethig]

God willing, but it would also require both TG and the Champ car people to stop drinking their koolades and wake up to reality.

[HiWayStar]

even I am not a great fan of oval racing, why the IndyCar Series, has more and more road races in its scheudle ?? Infineon, the Glenn, St. Petersburg, and this year 2 others, Detroit and Mid-Ohio, both with the ALMS
is it a first step to unify both open wheel series ?
:cool:

I believe it's an acknowledgement that the all-oval concept does not work, at least in present-day America.

Rather than an attempt to unify the series, the IRL is trying to steal...yet again...some of CC's thunder, while at the same time fulfilling the wishes of the ex-CART teams, & Honda.

All this proves is that the original CART model...with a combination of ovals, roads, & streets...was a good one, & there was no need to divide the OW world, other than 1 man's desire to control at least a portion of that world.

Today, both series have their bright spots...& their downside. ALMS is straddling the fence (which is ok, I guess) using the respective OW series to increase their respective draws for selected weekend events.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

"Rather than an attempt to unify the series, the IRL is trying to steal...yet again...some of CC's thunder, while at the same time fulfilling the wishes of the ex-CART teams, & Honda." HiWay Star

Oh yeah because CART (CCWS) is running so many ovals this year.

The IRL has evolved into the most diverse racing series in the world.

You can compare it to Champ Car all you want but CART in the early days of th 90s was turning into a Formula 1 wannabe, and in fact has had that status since the split. American talent couldn't earn they're way into CART on talent alone and ended up in NASCAR.

The IRL today boasts the greatest diversity of drivers covering oval, road course, karting, disciplines as well as a diversity of nationalities, and sexes. And yes, American talent ! Andretti, Sharp, Hornish, Patrick, Rice, etc.

NO ONE is stealing anyone's thunder. The IRL has made its own noise because it has an identity. An identity tied closely to the oval discipline that is the Indianapolis 500, while embracing the diversity of road and street courses.The sooner open wheel fans embrace the FACT that open wheel racing exists in North America because of the Indianapolis 500, the sooner open wheel racing in N America will unify. CCWS has no identity, just great party weekends and parades they call racing. The majority of sponsors in IndyCar are in it mainly because of the exposure of the Indy 500. CCWS has no Indy 500, no identity, no tradition, no sponsors and for this racing fan, NO APPEAL.

[BenRoethig]

I believe it's an acknowledgement that the all-oval concept does not work, at least in present-day America.

Rather than an attempt to unify the series, the IRL is trying to steal...yet again...some of CC's thunder, while at the same time fulfilling the wishes of the ex-CART teams, & Honda.

All this proves is that the original CART model...with a combination of ovals, roads, & streets...was a good one, & there was no need to divide the OW world, other than 1 man's desire to control at least a portion of that world.

Today, both series have their bright spots...& their downside. ALMS is straddling the fence (which is ok, I guess) using the respective OW series to increase their respective draws for selected weekend events.

The all road racing champ car series has been a complete failure as well. Out of the four combinations tried (all oval, all road, mix without Indy, mix with Indy) only the mix of tracks with Indy as its core has worked. Quite frankly if the series is dominated by one type of track it gets old real quick.

You talk about TG being the road block to unification, the champ car guys are as much as fault. They want to unify on their terms and have a road course dominated series as much as TG wants an oval dominated series.

[Komahawk]

I think it was Rick Mears who said that diversity is a good thing and he supports adding road courses to the IRL-schedule, however the focus should remain on the ovals.

[gorby007]

The IRL has evolved into the most diverse racing series in the world.



So would we call it now a Corrective "Vision" or an impared "Vision"

[Hayden Fan]

[quote="HiWayStar"]I believe it's an acknowledgement that the all-oval concept does not work, at least in present-day America.

QUOTE]

I think it can work. Look at NASCAR, true they have a few road races, but those are not enough to make a difference. All oval racing can work and wasn't that Tony Georges vision whan he broke away anyway? But what am I saying. I hate the Mindy Cars. I am hard core CC, I just think the IRL has the advantage in the US with more Americans.

[harvick#1]

The IRL today boasts the greatest diversity of drivers covering oval, road course, karting, disciplines as well as a diversity of nationalities, and sexes. And yes, American talent ! Andretti, Sharp, Hornish, Patrick, Rice, etc.

:eek: Danica has Talent :p : I thought Modeling was her talent, because she sure isn't proving it on the track

[ChicagocrewIRL]

:eek: Danica has Talent :p : I thought Modeling was her talent, because she sure isn't proving it on the track

HAHA . I bet Danica has more talent than 90% of the no names in CCWS. She has lead the Indianapolis 500 and not on some pit stop crap but lead it when it mattered. Something 99.999% of the population cannot ever claim they have done. She has enough talent to be someone who participates in a top notch racing series and a not a smart ass spectator racing expert wannabe.

I hope Danica makes you eat your smug comments with her being with a top tier team this year.

Oh and let's not forget the other American talent in the series, Fisher,Carpenter,Simmons,Foyt IV,Barron. These guys and the ones I mentioned before would have never had a ride in the old CART. Thank GOD for the IRL and thank GOD for Tony George.

[CCFan]

HAHA . I bet Danica has more talent than 90% of the no names in CCWS. She has lead the Indianapolis 500 and not on some pit stop crap but lead it when it mattered. Something 99.999% of the population cannot ever claim they have done. She has enough talent to be someone who participates in a top notch racing series and a not a smart ass spectator racing expert wannabe.

I hope Danica makes you eat your smug comments with her being with a top tier team this year.

Oh and let's not forget the other American talent in the series, Fisher,Carpenter,Simmons,Foyt IV,Barron. These guys and the ones I mentioned before would have never had a ride in the old CART. Thank GOD for the IRL and thank GOD for Tony George.


Actually, Chicago, Danica did lead the I500 on pit stop crap (strategy.) If you remember, she screwed up on one of the restarts & got behind. R-L put her on an alternate pit strategy and that is why she got to lead. It wasn't because she passed all of the front runners.

[HiWayStar]

"Rather than an attempt to unify the series, the IRL is trying to steal...yet again...some of CC's thunder, while at the same time fulfilling the wishes of the ex-CART teams, & Honda." HiWay Star

Oh yeah because CART (CCWS) is running so many ovals this year.

Nice way to twist my words to fit your agenda. IRL had the ovals...since its inception. Stealing CC's thunder was referring to road & street racing, & you know it. And they are...due to the reasons I listed above.


The IRL has evolved into the most diverse racing series in the world.

Only because of TG's cozy relationship with the Frances & the ISC syndicate. We'll see what happens when they tire of this little game of propping up the IRL. Drop the track-packs that ensure attendance. Let them stand on their own. California's gone, so's Phoenix, Michigan is next...get used to the idea.


You can compare it to Champ Car all you want but CART in the early days of th 90s was turning into a Formula 1 wannabe, and in fact has had that status since the split. American talent couldn't earn they're way into CART on talent alone and ended up in NASCAR.

Actually, F1 drivers...some at the peak of their careers...were coming to the US to try their hand at the diversity that CART offered. CART was head and shoulders above any other series at that time. But someone fixed all that, didn't they...?


The IRL today boasts the greatest diversity of drivers covering oval, road course, karting, disciplines as well as a diversity of nationalities, and sexes. And yes, American talent ! Andretti, Sharp, Hornish, Patrick, Rice, etc.

...Supported by the revenues from 2 races...1 of which isn't even run with IRL cra..... ...err... cars, & the Hulman trust. Without this welfare, this series would have died years ago...


NO ONE is stealing anyone's thunder. The IRL has made its own noise because it has an identity. An identity tied closely to the oval discipline that is the Indianapolis 500, while embracing the diversity of road and street courses.The sooner open wheel fans embrace the FACT that open wheel racing exists in North America because of the Indianapolis 500, the sooner open wheel racing in N America will unify. CCWS has no identity, just great party weekends and parades they call racing. The majority of sponsors in IndyCar are in it mainly because of the exposure of the Indy 500. CCWS has no Indy 500, no identity, no tradition, no sponsors and for this racing fan, NO APPEAL.

No one HAS to steal anyone's thunder...because there is none, other than a few die-hards...on either side of the fence. And as for your "party" quip regarding CC, have you ever been to an I500? It's nothing BUT a party. If people were actually there for the quality of the racing, they might actually show up at a few of the other races...but we know that won't happen...

[HiWayStar]

HAHA . I bet Danica has more talent than 90% of the no names in CCWS.

Yes, she does...and she proved it [and SHOWED her talent(s)] in the FHM spread.


I hope Danica makes you eat your smug comments with her being with a top tier team this year.

AGR was an also-ran last year, this year will be no different. DP is the bottom driver on a 3rd-ranked team. She might rate a few top-10's...


Oh and let's not forget the other American talent in the series, Fisher,Carpenter,Simmons,Foyt IV,Barron. These guys and the ones I mentioned before would have never had a ride in the old CART. Thank GOD for the IRL and thank GOD for Tony George.

LOL!! You're kidding, right? Those people don't rate a ride in a top flight series, American or not. Fisher flunked out of a bottom tier in Cabs, Carpenter is TG's whatever, AJ can't even drive for his own grandpa. Simmons brings Ethanol's bankroll with him, otherwise he'd be on the sidelines...& so would RLR...(I'll leave Barron out of this).

[gofastandwynn]

LOL!! You're kidding, right? Those people don't rate a ride in a top flight series, American or not. Fisher flunked out of a bottom tier in Cabs, Carpenter is TG's whatever, AJ can't even drive for his own grandpa. Simmons brings Ethanol's bankroll with him, otherwise he'd be on the sidelines...& so would RLR...(I'll leave Barron out of this).

Fisher flunked out in cabs. So did Paul Tracy, Jimmy Vasser & Scott Pruett.

Yea, and Ethanol is Simmons sponsor soooooo much......that they sponsored Paul Dana for 2+ years until his tragic death. Wow, I wish I had a sponsor like that :rolleyes: .

Wow, a cc fan tell us about a sponsor (Well, it's not like they have any of there own)

[F1boat]

NASCAR has road courses, why not the IRL? I like that race has different types of circuits.
HiWayStar, the old Indy Car might have been better than curent IRL, but current IRL IMO is vastly superior to current CCWS and even old Indy Car, no matter how great, was not equal to F1. Yeah, Mansell came from F1 to Indy Car - and won immediately.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Fisher flunked out in cabs. So did Paul Tracy, Jimmy Vasser & Scott Pruett.

Yea, and Ethanol is Simmons sponsor soooooo much......that they sponsored Paul Dana for 2+ years until his tragic death. Wow, I wish I had a sponsor like that :rolleyes: .

Wow, a cc fan tell us about a sponsor (Well, it's not like they have any of there own)


CCWS golden boy Allmendinger isn't doing so well in "cabs" either. 0-4 in qualifying tries. He needs to get back in open-wheel. He needs an IRL team.

[Jonesi]

CCWS golden boy Allmendinger isn't doing so well in "cabs" either. 0-4 in qualifying tries. He needs to get back in open-wheel. He needs an IRL team.

He would be doing just fine if he was in any other team, other than the only true startup team, in the most competitive year ever.

She has lead the Indianapolis 500 and not on some pit stop crap but lead it when it mattered.

Well, technically, she didn't lead it "when it mattered".

She led it a few laps before "it mattered". Dan Wheldon led it went "it mattered".

[Wilf]

For God's sake people! Enough of this mine is bigger than your's and my daddy can beat up your daddy. Qualifying starts today in Homestead; let's talk about racing.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

For God's sake people! Enough of this mine is bigger than your's and my daddy can beat up your daddy. Qualifying starts today in Homestead; let's talk about racing.


"I'd like an argument please" .....MONTY PYTHON'S FLYING CIRCUS

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Go Vitor !!!!!

[Hayden Fan]

HAHA . I bet Danica has more talent than 90% of the no names in CCWS. She has lead the Indianapolis 500 and not on some pit stop crap but lead it when it mattered. Something 99.999% of the population cannot ever claim they have done. She has enough talent to be someone who participates in a top notch racing series and a not a smart ass spectator racing expert wannabe.

I hope Danica makes you eat your smug comments with her being with a top tier team this year.

Oh and let's not forget the other American talent in the series, Fisher,Carpenter,Simmons,Foyt IV,Barron. These guys and the ones I mentioned before would have never had a ride in the old CART. Thank GOD for the IRL and thank GOD for Tony George.


Paul Tracy led and won the Indy 500. No names in CC. Hay. Bruno lead Indy and dominated. Thank God for TG. Why? Really, what has he done to help AOWR? He has done nothing but kill AOWR. She has no racing talent. She has not won a single race since karting. Formula Renault-no wins. Toyota Atlantics-no wins. Indy Car-no wins. I thought racers were considered talented if you won races? If she did have some form of talent she would have not let Danny Wheldon go by. Fisher is not a talented American. She is in a car because she is a women. Carpenter is the step son of TG. Foyt the fourth is the the same as Carpenter. He failed in NASCAR so he runs back to IRL. Barron failed in CCAtlantics, so he also runs back to IRL.

[O&A Virus]

CCWS golden boy Allmendinger isn't doing so well in "cabs" either. 0-4 in qualifying tries. He needs to get back in open-wheel. He needs an IRL team.

If you get rid of the silly NASCAR points system (top 35), AJ isn't doing as bad as you'd think. He would have made 2 of the first four on speed. He's made the last two races. Give him time.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I love how some people forget the formation of the IRL and what Tony's goals were when he created it. The fact our man from Chitown there can go on about how diverse the IRL is truly sucking back the Kool Aid of the last 4 years, because Tony didn't want ANYTHING to do with Road courses for the first decade of the IRL. He HATED road courses from what he was telling the CART heads in 94. He felt the series was going away from the success of ovals and how American they were. He wanted to make a series where the USAC Sprint and Silver Crown guys could go to. HE wanted to preserve ovals.

Now we have an IRL series that is horrors, looking a lot like CART circa 1990. The most entertaining and successful version of open wheeled racing possible outside of f1. IT wasn't good enough for Tony back then. Now we are supposed to believe that this evolution of the IRL into this formula with half the quality of fields and half the fans with no TV ratings is better?

Good lord, if the point of exercise was to go back to 1990, there was a way. To leave the damned series alone and let the evolution of CART go on as it should have. The "War" between the two series has left only casualities, and for anyone on EITHER side of this mess to claim otherwise has to be mainlining Kool Aid by the gallon...

[45 Below]

At the risk of thread hijacking - can someone explain to me the "Kool Aid" reference? I think I know what Kool Aid is - a kid's drink - but being from outside the US/Canada area I have no idea what it means in this context.

All I know is that I read people from both side of "the OW divide" accusing people in the other camp of chugging back the stuff.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

At the risk of thread hijacking - can someone explain to me the "Kool Aid" reference? I think I know what Kool Aid is - a kid's drink - but being from outside the US/Canada area I have no idea what it means in this context.

All I know is that I read people from both side of "the OW divide" accusing people in the other camp of chugging back the stuff.

The "kool aid" reference goes back to the Jonestown mass suicide in Guyana back in 1978. The followers of Rev Jim Jones drank kool aid laced with cyanide committing suicide at his orders. 913 people killed themselves as "blind followers" of the cult leader. "Drinking kool aid" then refers to blindly following or towing the company line regardless of the circumstances or outcome negative or positive.

[TU Homer]

Chicago,
You mention the greatness that is Danica because she led a few IRL500 laps? Is that correct? What other tracks has she led laps? Could it have been because she was with the IRL500 defending championship team, using by far, the best motor package, and had arguably the best crew in open-wheel racing? Rahal Racing (at the time) pitcrews had been winning the pit competitions like Penske/Ganassi wins races. No slam on her, but just because her crew got her to the front of the race for a few laps doesn't make her a great driver.

Using that logic, she should get lead laps at every other track.

-TU

[Mark in Oshawa]

Danica hasn't seen the lead since, proving that once again, Indy was a fluke for her. Danica is pretty, can be an interesting quote, but she would struggle in any race series IMO.

IRL road courses will just be that much tougher on little Danica, who I doubt can hang onto an IRL car for a full road course race.

[Komahawk]

Chicago,
You mention the greatness that is Danica because she led a few IRL500 laps? Is that correct? What other tracks has she led laps? Could it have been because she was with the IRL500 defending championship team, using by far, the best motor package, and had arguably the best crew in open-wheel racing? Rahal Racing (at the time) pitcrews had been winning the pit competitions like Penske/Ganassi wins races. No slam on her, but just because her crew got her to the front of the race for a few laps doesn't make her a great driver.

Using that logic, she should get lead laps at every other track.

-TU

LOL, Danica has had POLES and LLs after the '05 Indy500. And she has been all over Buddy Rice for 2 years. She's not the best driver out there, but she's pretty good.

[Civic]

The IRL was announced in 1994 and even then the plan was to have some road/street courses. It's just that the road/street courses had existing contracts with CART.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

The IRL was announced in 1994 and even then the plan was to have some road/street courses. It's just that the road/street courses had existing contracts with CART.

Is this true ??? Where can I read about this ???

[NoFender]

I like oval racing. I think it's America's roots. I think TG had a great idea when he formed the IRL. It's too bad the plan didn't work. Oh well, stuff happens. CC's fearless leaders made some idiotic moves themselves, all 3 or 6 of'em (or how ever many have been in charge since 96). TG picking up left overs from CC seems to hit people in the gut for some reason, not sure why. CC couldn't do squat with'em. so why moan about it?? If each track like Mid-Ohio, ST Pete, etc, was such a dead spot, who cares who races there. CC is no longer wasting time or money on these places, and is focusing on their street parades, after all, that's where all those loyal fans are. My point is, neither series knows exactly who they are, and they're all fishing for new fans. So, what was said yesterday, should be thrown out with yesterdays newspaper.

[TU Homer]

LOL, Danica has had POLES and LLs after the '05 Indy500. And she has been all over Buddy Rice for 2 years. She's not the best driver out there, but she's pretty good.

I don't think she's bad. But by happenstance, she found herself leading the big IRL race, so that proves she a top driver?

Besides, I'm not sure IMS is the most technical track out there. Honestly, I don't know. But I do know Milwaukee (as an example) is a completely different and difficult beast. I'm sure there are others.


-TU

[Mr Jinxx]

I think where the IRL scores now, over probably any other racing series in the world, is the fact that it promotes not only good drivers, but drivers who can adapt and race almost anywhere ... little one mile ovals, flat out mile and a halfs, superspeedways, traditional racetracks/road courses, street circuits ... the mix that the IRL have got now seems to be pretty good to me, and provides a much more diverse and challenging schedule than any other OW championship that I can think of.

With the Indy Pro series growing in popularity, both in the US and in Europe and the rest of the world, it should broaden its appeal, be a good training ground for the big cars, and will hopefully be a genuine feeder series and I can see the quality of drivers continuing to improve because of its enhanced appeal, with the IRL gradually growing in strength and popularity. Its future is much brighter than CC, of that I'm convinced.

[TU Homer]

The IRL does have the most diverse schedule in motorsport today - much more like the old CART, which was the best ever.

Said with a straight face.

I'm sorry. I know the answer from most of you. But why the heck did Anton start IRL if it became CART? Actually, it's a cheap facsimile of CART, but it is a facsimile.

Did Anton's product result in greater participation in the sport? Better driver development? Better ratings? Has it grown? Is the sport better than it was than when Anton first had that brain fade about starting a competing league to CART? And has it accomplished any of the goals stated in his "vision"?

I know what Jan Schaeffer would say, if he were actually on these boards. But can anyone say it's better than before with a straight face?

I'll never forgive Anton, personally.


-TU

[NoFender]

Said with a straight face.

I'm sorry. I know the answer from most of you. But why the heck did Anton start IRL if it became CART? Actually, it's a cheap facsimile of CART, but it is a facsimile.

Did Anton's product result in greater participation in the sport? Better driver development? Better ratings? Has it grown? Is the sport better than it was than when Anton first had that brain fade about starting a competing league to CART? And has it accomplished any of the goals stated in his "vision"?

I know what Jan Schaeffer would say, if he were actually on these boards. But can anyone say it's better than before with a straight face?

I'll never forgive Anton, personally.


-TU


I don't think his original plan worked quite the way he wanted it to. That being said, the IRL has taken a different road to find success. Hardly anything that he wanted to see, came to light. So, we should expect to see things going back to what they once were each day. The grass roots concept is done. Now how do they keep it alive and still make a buck?

Is it better than before??? Yes and no. It all depends on what you want out of a sport that you only spectate. I'm fine and always have been. It's completely amusing to me the rage some people get over something they have no say in. I like the fact that there's two series I can watch with full enthusiasm. I got to at least one race from either series every year. The only thing that I see worse (from where I sit) is the confusion people have between the two. Most of the time I'm explaining the difference in the 2 cars to people, instead of what kind of great show one or the other puts on. And even after I explain, they've lost interest and talk about NASCAR. I'm a fan or AOW. Not the owners, not the teams, not really even the drivers, just the sport as a whole. Do I want to see more sponsors?? Sure, but as long as the car is on the track, I could really care less what name is on it.More people at events?? Sure, but I like small lines at the pisser or beer stand. Never let this political bs get ya wrapped up.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Said with a straight face.

I'm sorry. I know the answer from most of you. But why the heck did Anton start IRL if it became CART? Actually, it's a cheap facsimile of CART, but it is a facsimile.

Did Anton's product result in greater participation in the sport? Better driver development? Better ratings? Has it grown? Is the sport better than it was than when Anton first had that brain fade about starting a competing league to CART? And has it accomplished any of the goals stated in his "vision"?

I know what Jan Schaeffer would say, if he were actually on these boards. But can anyone say it's better than before with a straight face?

I'll never forgive Anton, personally.


-TU

I don't really think anyone cares if YOU forgive him or not, Tony George had one goal and goal alone that I can really see as the driving force to start up the IRL. And that IS to keep the Indianapolis 500 as the centerpiece for a top tier open wheel racing series in North America.

Correct me if I am wrong but CART early 90s was progressing rapidly toward having ITS championship eclipse the Indianapolis 500 as the goal of drivers and teams. Also the series was rapidly becoming a road racing series with oval races disappearing quickly. What else could the steward of the Indy 500 (Tony George) have done to keep this from happening ? In the short term the split was very damaging to the 500 but the gravity of the event itself kept the Indy Racing League alive in its early years. The crowds still came out to watch even the "no-name" drivers simply because it was THE INDIANAPOLIS 500. Tony George wanted a series where the 500 was not just another race in the series. In my opinion, CART existed because of the Indianapolis 500 and NOT the other way around.
The Unsers,Andrettis,Foyts,Rutherford,Mears,Sullivan,e tc. exist because of the 500 and again, NOT the other way around.

In the end even without a split, the Indianapolis 500 was losing stature to the growing popularity of taxicab racing. The lack of respect CART as a corporation, was showing both by the owners and drivers made matters even worse. Ultimately those same owners and drivers realized eventually that open wheel racing in America exists solely because of one race, and the desire by sponsors to be in THAT race is what led most of the most powerful CART teams back to the Indianapolis 500 and their entry into the IRL. Fernandez,Penske,Ganassi,Rahal-Letterman,The Green Brothers.....These teams and their sponsors could not thrive in CART without the 500.

Sure turning right has been added to the series. In my opinion, it was necessary and inevitable. These road and street courses have made the IRL series the ULTIMATE test of driving, forcing teams and drivers to excel in many different areas.

The main difference between the IRL of today and the CART of the early 90s is that success in the month of May in Indianapolis is THE main measure of success. I can recall interview after interview with current IRL drivers where they were quoted as saying if it came down to winning the IRL championship or the Indianapolis 500, hands down, the 500 was the ULTIMATE goal. There is no other series in the world where you can win a race with a heritage that stretches back almost 100 years. NO WHERE NO SERIES. The Borg Warner Trophy is the holy grail of the IRL.

And in that sense Tony George is a complete success.

TO BOILERIMS..... the above is a completely orignal composition of opinion and in no way has been cut and pasted from any source other than my own neurons. CHEERS

[Wilf]

I don't agree that TG has experienced a complete success because it is still a work in process, but he is a lot closer than he was 11 or 12 years ago.

It's nice to see someone either remembers or has done some research on what was happening in ther early 90's.

Honest discourse is much more enjoyable when the participants truly know the subject and don't let their emotions get in the way.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Heck, if you guys think that winning the 500 is the holy grail, and I do, then you better realize this. CART drivers and teams looked at the series back in the 90's and still treated the 500 as a jewel. They may have on occasion taken their being there for granted, and that got in Tony's craw, but believe me, they should have or did know that it was the race to win. That said, to only have one race put so far ahead of the others in stature that the series is meaningless is not healthy either.

Tony has really only cared about promoting and running his event. The IRL is the sideshow he has had to fund and promote and run to support the Speedway. He wanted total control of the cars that ran the Indy 500 and he killed American OW racing damn near in the process of doing just that. The fact that the IRL is a decent series today doesn't mitigate the first 10 years of miscues, missteps and failed ideas. It also doesn't mitigate the fact that he has now recreated CART in a sense by going to St. Petes, the Glen, Mid-Ohio, Detroit (that idea should have stayed dead IMO) and Sonoma.

Look, you guys as fans of the IRL should realize that you have to look back at the early 90's and see what you are seeing now is along the same lines with half the fans, half the quality of drivers (About 8 Champ Car guys would really be a fine addition to the IRL along with their teams) and about 1 TENTH of the TV ratings. THat is on a good day. This is not something to be proud of.

Should CART fans and CCWS fans be proud? Yes and no, they have fought the good fight to keep what they had, but as time has gone on, I have been very critical of them too.

The IRL going to road courses is yet again another subtle admission that the original raison d'etre of the IRL didn't hold up to the market reality, and now we have a split loyalty/split fan base in two pointlessly warring factions while the casual race fan has walked off to NASCAR. This move to road courses will make the IRL more watchable to me personally, it is a reason I watch more IRL events now than I did 5 years ago, but please spare me the hyperbole of how wonderful this all is. It isn't.

CART were arrogant stupid people who didn't give Tony the time of day because they didn't see what a hammer he had. Now only if he had used his head in how he dealt with them, and the series he created, he would likely be the king of all OW racing today. Instead, he wasted the first 5 years in no man's land while CART starved without the Indy money tree, and then he has run a series that keeps evolving through misstep and sometimes right moves to be about 25% of what CART was in 1994. I cant buy this as a total success. The fact he is alive and has most of the good teams and sponsors is something, but then again, having the tradition and jewel of Indy keeps money coming in to an extent, and it is the one thing CART didn't have that eventually killed them. Still, the sport isn't where it should be, and for that he has to share in that blame. Saying how wonderful the IRL is and how balanced it is doesn't change the reality of what racing really was 20 years ago.

For those who think I am an old fogey, I am 42, and I grew up watching the 500 on TV. I loved it, the lore and story of the race always made it the highlight of any CART season (besides Toronto where I could actually go and WATCH live) and I think 90% of the fans of the sport at that time would agree. If Tony couldn't see THAT, then he really wasn't paying attention.

[TU Homer]

Re read my post. What part of "today" didn't you get? CART, though much lamented and missed, is dead and has been for a while.

No, I got it. Your comment sorta set me off. Anton didn't start IRL to be the most diverse form of motorsports today. he started it basically to preserve the tradition of the Indy500, and to preserve the tradition of the American oval race. So, why did he then recreate CART? That was my point.


-TU

[TU Homer]

Correct me if I am wrong but CART early 90s was progressing rapidly toward having ITS championship eclipse the Indianapolis 500 as the goal of drivers and teams. Also the series was rapidly becoming a road racing series with oval races disappearing quickly.

You are wrong. First, CART recognized the Indy500 for what it was. Secondly, the series wanted to cut a week off the Indy500 "festival", which ironically has been floated by IMS and IRL over the past few years.


-TU

[TU Homer]

Heck, if you guys think that winning the 500 is the holy grail, and I do, then you better realize this. CART drivers and teams looked at the series back in the 90's and still treated the 500 as a jewel. They may have on occasion taken their being there for granted, and that got in Tony's craw, but believe me, they should have or did know that it was the race to win. That said, to only have one race put so far ahead of the others in stature that the series is meaningless is not healthy either.

Tony has really only cared about promoting and running his event. The IRL is the sideshow he has had to fund and promote and run to support the Speedway. He wanted total control of the cars that ran the Indy 500 and he killed American OW racing damn near in the process of doing just that. The fact that the IRL is a decent series today doesn't mitigate the first 10 years of miscues, missteps and failed ideas. It also doesn't mitigate the fact that he has now recreated CART in a sense by going to St. Petes, the Glen, Mid-Ohio, Detroit (that idea should have stayed dead IMO) and Sonoma.

Look, you guys as fans of the IRL should realize that you have to look back at the early 90's and see what you are seeing now is along the same lines with half the fans, half the quality of drivers (About 8 Champ Car guys would really be a fine addition to the IRL along with their teams) and about 1 TENTH of the TV ratings. THat is on a good day. This is not something to be proud of.

Should CART fans and CCWS fans be proud? Yes and no, they have fought the good fight to keep what they had, but as time has gone on, I have been very critical of them too.

The IRL going to road courses is yet again another subtle admission that the original raison d'etre of the IRL didn't hold up to the market reality, and now we have a split loyalty/split fan base in two pointlessly warring factions while the casual race fan has walked off to NASCAR. This move to road courses will make the IRL more watchable to me personally, it is a reason I watch more IRL events now than I did 5 years ago, but please spare me the hyperbole of how wonderful this all is. It isn't.

CART were arrogant stupid people who didn't give Tony the time of day because they didn't see what a hammer he had. Now only if he had used his head in how he dealt with them, and the series he created, he would likely be the king of all OW racing today. Instead, he wasted the first 5 years in no man's land while CART starved without the Indy money tree, and then he has run a series that keeps evolving through misstep and sometimes right moves to be about 25% of what CART was in 1994. I cant buy this as a total success. The fact he is alive and has most of the good teams and sponsors is something, but then again, having the tradition and jewel of Indy keeps money coming in to an extent, and it is the one thing CART didn't have that eventually killed them. Still, the sport isn't where it should be, and for that he has to share in that blame. Saying how wonderful the IRL is and how balanced it is doesn't change the reality of what racing really was 20 years ago.

For those who think I am an old fogey, I am 42, and I grew up watching the 500 on TV. I loved it, the lore and story of the race always made it the highlight of any CART season (besides Toronto where I could actually go and WATCH live) and I think 90% of the fans of the sport at that time would agree. If Tony couldn't see THAT, then he really wasn't paying attention.

Worth repeating.


-TU