Problems with visibility in a F1 car

[Knock-on]

I thought it would be better to start a separate thread as the other one relates to Lewis in Singapore and is now bringing in elements of the Cockpit / Coupe thread.

To recap, Lewis has claimed problems with visibility have contributed to a couple of recent accidents. In my opinion, the problem may incorporate the Bolster and sidepods of the survival cell, the restriction in sideways head movement from the HANS, the size, position and stability of the mirrors and even the different seating positions of different drivers.

This video gives a nice overview of HANS and some idea on the length of the straps and what movement they offer. An insight into the HANS | Videos | Features | F1 Pulse (http://www.f1pulse.com/feature/7-25-2011/daily_videos.aspx)

Credit to AndyL for this diagram:

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee23/L_Andy/f1mirrors2011.gif

This image gives an idea on the side visibility on Lewis's car.

http://www.f1-site.com/wallpapers/2011/f1/malaysia/qual/sepang-f1-wallpaper-2011-7.jpg

It looks impossible to see any car past the visibility of his wing mirrors until it's wheel to wheel.

It seems to me that there needs to be some adjustment of the rules regarding visibility.

Possibly any cockpit materials above eye-line to be transparent and larger, better mirrors. Don't know about heads up displays etc but worth discussing?

[I am evil Homer]

Whitmarsh and indeed others has said the other issue is vibration so even if they can 'see' with a larger wing mirror the exact position of car is still difficult to see. Factor in that at times these cars are going fast and reactions times are minute and it's obvious there's some problems.

It's not just Lewis either...thinking back to Buemi/Heidfeld this year, Schumacher, Kovi/Webber etc..

[Shifter]

Sometimes too, it comes down to if you don't know, don't go. Take the Hamilton/Kobayashi incident from the top of the hill at Spa. Not knowing if you're sure that you're clear, how much lap time would have been lost by using discretion and taking a shallower line into the corner?

Anyway, it's a valid point...Head & Neck safety measures do reduce perhiprial vision. Senna, for instance, was dangerously exposed in the cockpit but some of his moves might have not worked if he couldn't see what he was able to see out the sides of the cut-down cockpit.

[Bagwan]

Houston , we have a problem .
The safety cell isn't so safe .

So far , I've only heard the comment that morrors need to be stiffer mounted , for anti-vibration , from the F1 people .
And , not much about the bolster height , or the big , fat blind spot .

It's a blind spot so big , we should be calling the frontal view , the un-blind spot , because it's so much smaller .

They can't see behind , because they design the mirror so flimsy , it vibrates so much that you can't see dick behind you , if he's there .
And , that's perfectly ok , because when you're at rest , you can read your obituary , if it's written backwards for you .
It's unsafe without mirrors , apparently , but not unsafe if the mirrors you do have , are useless .

Isn't there a law suit in that somewhere ?

And , those bolsters , there to keep a driver safe , make accidental collision more likely , as it makes them blind to thier opponent .
It's like replacing the side windows of your car with steel , and feeling safer as a result .
That's just stupid .

If a monkey like me can see this , what the hell are the technical working group doing , not dealing with it in any way ?

[Knock-on]

Whitmarsh and indeed others has said the other issue is vibration so even if they can 'see' with a larger wing mirror the exact position of car is still difficult to see. Factor in that at times these cars are going fast and reactions times are minute and it's obvious there's some problems.

It's not just Lewis either...thinking back to Buemi/Heidfeld this year, Schumacher, Kovi/Webber etc..

There has been an increase in recent years of drivers claiming they had no view of an incident so I think it's fair to say the problem is endemic and not specific to Lewis or the McLaren. However, it may be exacerbated by lewis's seating position; I don't know.

With the problem of vibration, this is not a new one whether in F1 or even riding a normal performance motorcycle. With the technology around at the moment, it would seem that it's time to look at new display options. Perhaps a small flip canopy displaying a left and right pan of the car to assist the mirrors?

[Knock-on]

Houston , we have a problem .

If a monkey like me can see this , what the hell are the technical working group doing , not dealing with it in any way ?

Hmmmm, perhaps they are more interested in getting the best advantage for their individual team and less interested in what is safest?

[Shifter]

It may be time to mandate cameras. I'm pretty sure they use them in JGTC.

[Knock-on]

This is pretty straightforward isn't it, or am I being silly?

[Bagwan]

Hmmmm, perhaps they are more interested in getting the best advantage for their individual team and less interested in what is safest?

It is pretty simple , Knocky .

It's just that "they" seems to be everybody involved .
We hear about this issue in just about every race , where "I didn't see him coming" has become a valid excuse .

And yet , the FIA , and the technical working group seems to do nothing to address it .

They did , a few years ago , make the mirrors bigger , but they teams make the high mounted item as light as possible , and it vibrates the image to the point it is useless .
Even if it wasn't useless , it only shows what's happening out to the outside edge of the rear wheel .

If we only look at this aspect , we have an organization that makes rules , and then allows them , knowingly , to be ignored , as , clearly , they know the mirrors to be ineffective .
We also have an organization that makes parts that they know are there for safe operation of the vehicle , capable of speeds in excess of 200mph , yet designs them too light to be effective .

Isn't there something that's a bit criminal about all this ?

[555-04Q2]

Drivers should just use their brains and/or be more aware of their surroundings.

[Big Ben]

Drivers should just use their brains and/or be more aware of their surroundings.

Do you imply Hammy shouldn't have assumed Felipe Baby just vanished? Don't be absurd.

[555-04Q2]

Do you imply Hammy shouldn't have assumed Felipe Baby just vanished? Don't be absurd.

I didn't imply anything.

[Bagwan]

Drivers should just use their brains and/or be more aware of their surroundings.

It's made a little harder when the car , itself , makes it impossible to see anything behind the bolsters .

Perhaps the drivers should refuse to drive until this is dealt with .
They must see the danger of not being able to see .
It is , after all , most obvious from where they sit .

[schmenke]

In hindsight there is a problem.

[Bagwan]

In hindsight there is a problem.

Which a little more foresight might have fixed .

[schmenke]

Upon reflection, the solution may not be clear.

[airshifter]

Considering all the tech in F1, it's actually surprising that no team has come up with a better solution. These days they could easily mount a small camera on each side of the car, forwarded mounted near the wheel mounts and facing rearward. Each camera has a small monitor in the cockpit on the appropriate side. Done properly it would work as well if not better than good mirrors on a street car.

[penagate]

Perhaps the cars could be fitted with proximity sensors, and a beep-beep sound played through the appropriate earpiece of the driver when another car is alongside. The beeping could change in pace or pitch depending on the position of the other car.

This could be a little distracting at the start of the race though!

[555-04Q2]

Its crazy that people can even entertain babysitting F1 drivers :s hock: Whatever happened to these guys being the best of the best in the world :crazy:

Drive the damn cars and stop making excuses!

[Bagwan]

Upon reflection, the solution may not be clear.

But , the bolster issue is blindingly obvious .

[schmenke]

The drivers need to rise up to the problem.

[Big Ben]

Its crazy that people can even entertain babysitting F1 drivers :s hock: Whatever happened to these guys being the best of the best in the world :crazy:

Drive the damn cars and stop making excuses!

You have to admit though that McLaren's strategy worked wonderfully, at least that's the way it looks around here, no one talks about the actual incident anymore.

[Big Ben]

I still believe this is just BS so people stop talking about LH's reckless driving but I wonder... wouldn't have smarter to take a different angle... like FM being in LH's blind spot... it sounds more likely to me.... I mean even if the mirrors vibrate a lot shouldn't LH had seen at least a red spot or something... and even if he didn't see anything where could had FM disappeared? My guess he didn't even look so not even 2m by 2m mirrors would have helped much.

[555-04Q2]

You have to admit though that McLaren's strategy worked wonderfully, at least that's the way it looks around here, no one talks about the actual incident anymore.

Never looked at it from that angle :up:

[Bagwan]

I still believe this is just BS so people stop talking about LH's reckless driving but I wonder... wouldn't have smarter to take a different angle... like FM being in LH's blind spot... it sounds more likely to me.... I mean even if the mirrors vibrate a lot shouldn't LH had seen at least a red spot or something... and even if he didn't see anything where could had FM disappeared? My guess he didn't even look so not even 2m by 2m mirrors would have helped much.

Here's the thing though , Big .
Dumping on Hamilton can be easily achieved in the "Haminton" thread .

We're trying to look at a larger issue here . Can they see well enough to drive these contraptions ?

[Bagwan]

The drivers need to rise up to the problem.

If they only would glance in thier mirrors , they'd see how poorly they looked .

[ioan]

The drivers need to rise up to the problem.

You misplaced an 's':

The driver needs to rise up to the problem.

And before anyone feels like starting a war, this was just a joke. ;)

[steveaki13]

You misplaced an 's':

The driver needs to rise up to the problem.

And before anyone feels like starting a war, this was just a joke. ;)

Surely jokes have been banned by now. :p :

[steveaki13]

Not really sure but is there any real chance of having a camera system seems like having to look down to much while racing and also the beeping system mentioned above also would be hard to hear above radio chat and the engine noise.

My thought is that mirrors just need to be bigger and fixed in a way so they don't much in isolation of the cars own movements i.e flapping around.

[call_me_andrew]

This is a common problem in all motorsports today. Headrests have gotten so big that it blocks the driver's peripheral vision.

There's an easy solution, but you're not going to like it: spotters.

[555-04Q2]

Here's the thing though , Big .
Dumping on Hamilton can be easily achieved in the "Haminton" thread .

We're trying to look at a larger issue here . Can they see well enough to drive these contraptions ?

The so called visibility issues should have been picked up during pre-season testing, not 13 races into the season.

" A bullsh!t excuse" is the term that comes to my mind :down:

[Zico]

Not really sure but is there any real chance of having a camera system seems like having to look down to much while racing and also the beeping system mentioned above also would be hard to hear above radio chat and the engine noise.

I can see problems with camera systems, screen glare etc. If you have ever tried to look at a tv or monitor outside on a sunny day you will know what I mean.

I started a thread on this very subject last year suggesting that Tactors activated by a close proximity radar system to effectively 'feel' the other cars location and distance (by tactor vibration strength) a variation of the tactors system currently being developed for helicopter pilots... as a possible solution.

See http://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?t=140108&highlight=tactors


My thought is that mirrors just need to be bigger and fixed in a way so they don't much in isolation of the cars own movements i.e flapping around.

I think having a generic FIA spec mirror of a reasonable size and with an anti-vibration damped mounting compulsary for all teams as being the most sensible answer. No need to go high-tech when an already existing solution just needs to be made mandatory

[Bagwan]

The so called visibility issues should have been picked up during pre-season testing, not 13 races into the season.

" A bullsh!t excuse" is the term that comes to my mind :down:

I suppose you could say to Lewis that if he sits that low in the car , he doesn't have the right to say he can't see very well , at least in relation to others .
But , this is more about the larger issue , that none of them can see very well , or , much better than "low" Lewis .

And , I suppose you could say that he has little right to use the excuse of not being able to see Massa behind , if he already knew the mirrors were useless .
But , although I didn't hear anyone else complaining about this issue , I also didn't hear anyone expressing surprise at the assertion , and this , I must assume at this point is because nobody was .
It seems , therefore , that a wobbly mirror is standard issue up and down the pitlane .

When they were morphing into aero devices , and getting smaller , they were put back on the sidepods , and mandated for size .
Now they are useless again , what do you think they should do ?

[Bagwan]

I can see problems with camera systems, screen glare etc. If you have ever tried to look at a tv or monitor outside on a sunny day you will know what I mean.

I started a thread on this very subject last year suggesting that Tactors activated by a close proximity radar system to effectively 'feel' the other cars location and distance (by tactor vibration strength) a variation of the tactors system currently being developed for helicopter pilots... as a possible solution.

See http://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?t=140108&highlight=tactors



I think having a generic FIA spec mirror of a reasonable size and with an anti-vibration damped mounting compulsary for all teams as being the most sensible answer. No need to go high-tech when an already existing solution just needs to be made mandatory

Anti-vibration damping would solve the mirror issue , it would seem .
That's a simple answer .

[kfzmeister]

Some thoughts on the visibility issue and Hamilton/Massa @ Suzuka:

1. Here is about the best incar cam vid i've seen so far. I realize that it is not full speed, yet nobody else has an issue with blurry, vibrating mirrors other than Hamilton. Ever!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=m3DY7HIjXMc

2. If visibility really were an issue, why is nobody talking about it? Engineers, GPDA, etc.,...? Answer: No issue

3. While watching DiGrassi's view, you always have a clear view of his rear tires (peripheral vision, anyone?). The guys are highly alert to senses like that, unlike us.

4. Hamilton (or, any driver) is always aware of who's behind him and about where they are, especially when he's now slowing due to a puncture and Massa's still full speed. He's been dishonest before. You can see how he hates being passed, but now Massa's about to do it?

[555-04Q2]

what do you think they should do ?

They should develop a mirror system that works. No point pouring hundreds of millions of Dollars into going faster if you are going to crash all the time because you skimped on the mirrors/visibility. They should use their world class facilities to sort out the issue.

[ArrowsFA1]

2. If visibility really were an issue, why is nobody talking about it? Engineers, GPDA, etc.,...? Answer: No issue
2003 (prior to the introduction of higher cockpit sides) - "...he had severely restricted view because of a sizeable blind spot either side of him, which is common to all F1 cars" Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/3164891.stm)

It is often talked about and has been for a long time, and it's a situation made worse by the higher cockpit sides. Sebastian Vettel was the last driver I remember mentioning it at the Japanese GP (link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95217)).

[autoxwyer]

Learn a little about F1, useful post! I love F1, but never join it, just take attention to F1