The most overrated rally driver?

[Juha_Koo]

Since there's been "bashing" but also very analytic discussions about different drivers and their performance, I felt like this thread is a must.

Who is the most overrated rally driver and why? Let's keep it clean and civil.

[Gregor-y]

Past or present?
I don't think there are many false expectations out there at the moment. Everyone's a pretty well known quantity.

[MJW]

Sebastien Loeb, what has he acheived

[MJW]

Please note the above post is 100% a joke.

[Viking]

Overrated, ever? by who??

Maybe the media hyped Travis Pastrana, Kimi and Valentino Rossi?

Valentino in Rally GB 2002 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTviDYWSm8M&feature=related)

[Fiat-131-Abarth]

Guy Wilks

[dimviii]

Guy Wilks

+1 + Gardemaister

[Barreis]

Garde was really good but never won. JML should never stay in the works squad after all shunts and mistakes he had. But money turns the world around.

[Langdale Forest]

Mikko Hirvonen, he could be a paper champion soon. He only appears to be good because of team orders, although he is a way better driver than anyone on here could be.

[Nornbugger]

although he is a way better driver than anyone on here could be.

this kind of bs is often said here, its not relevant, would you accept poor work from a tradesman because it was better than you could do?


And Mikko is better than many here think, he just shouldnt have been made No1 as soon. He has driven some great events but often he is beaten in his head before he gets to the stages

[tfp]

Its really difficult to say who's "over rated" - Someone who is supposed to be good but actually isn't. The trouble is, we know who the big 5 are in WRC, we know who the middle of the pack are, and, er...
To be brutally honest (as much as I dont want to say it), maybe Ostberg. He was lightening fast in sweden, and he got a seat in a WRC car to aim for podiums, but weve waited and waited(since sweden), but a podium never hapenned. So maybe we've over rated Mads a bit.

I must also say, I think he is full of potential, and with more experience under the belt, in the future he could be competing with paddon and hanninen for the drivers championship.

[Fly_Half]

Personally, I believe its a tad churlish to say Hirvonen is the most 'overrated' driver. People seem to have very short memories, it wasn't long ago he was pushing Loeb every inch of the way on gravel, regularly beating him in fact. Having said that however, I believe his decline as a driver can be traced to that massive shunt on his favourite corner on Rally Finland last season(?), which appears to have dented his confidence to take that last tenth over the edge that the top drivers have to have. I realise he's never going to beat the Sebs on tarmac though.

Also, some above mentions Guy Wilks...how is he over-rated? He's proved his pace at UK National level, and has been competitive in the IRC when in a good car. No-one has ever said he's a world beater, so how is he over-rated?

The most over-rated driver at the moment? I don't think anyone in the WRC is 'over-rated' by anyone who possesses an ounce of common sense. As Greg says in post #2, everyone is a known quantity so by definition, can't be over-rated....

[tfp]

Personally, I believe its a tad churlish to say Hirvonen is the most 'overrated' driver. People seem to have very short memories, it wasn't long ago he was pushing Loeb every inch of the way on gravel, regularly beating him in fact. Having said that however, I believe his decline as a driver can be traced to that massive shunt on his favourite corner on Rally Finland last season(?), which appears to have dented his confidence to take that last tenth over the edge that the top drivers have to have. I realise he's never going to beat the Sebs on tarmac though.

Also, some above mentions Guy Wilks...how is he over-rated? He's proved his pace at UK National level, and has been competitive in the IRC when in a good car. No-one has ever said he's a world beater, so how is he over-rated?

The most over-rated driver at the moment? I don't think anyone in the WRC is 'over-rated' by anyone who possesses an ounce of common sense. As Greg says in post #2, everyone is a known quantity so by definition, can't be over-rated....

Agree with this, although I think his loss of pace happened before rally finland last year, maybe the crash in mexico?
Marcus gronholm after he took his first title says it wore him out mentally, which is why he couldnt take the title the following season, but he was back the year after to claim his title :)

[N.O.T]

its funny how people consider clowns like Block, Rossi, Kimi ects RALLY DRIVERS.

And that is the problem with the sport, there is no filter, any rich boy can jump in and be considered a rally driver....

go on with the thread now.

[Langdale Forest]

its funny how people consider clowns like Block, Rossi, Kimi ects RALLY DRIVERS.

And that is the problem with the sport, there is no filter, any rich boy can jump in and be considered a rally driver....

go on with the thread now.



In the weeks leading upto, and during Rally Mexico 2010, you said that drivers like Kimi and Block, were 'legend ambassadors of the human race', can you tell me why?

[focus206]

not easy to say...
don't know about the MOST overrated but, among fans, I saw many who, in my opinion, overrated a bit Francois Duval... he had the speed, but he had way too many crashes...
among non-fans, obviously Ken Block... many people think that he is a WRC champion or something like that, and when you say to them that he is way off the pace of the top drivers, they say that he needs time to learn and in a couple of years he will be champion :rolleyes:

[N.O.T]

In the weeks leading upto, and during Rally Mexico 2010, you said that drivers like Kimi and Block, were 'legend ambassadors of the human race', can you tell me why?

when you become 18....

[Langdale Forest]

chris butterworth is a pedo

???????

[N.O.T]

Langdale do you have some kind of mental disability ? or are you 12 ?

Stop quoting spammers....

Bender chopping

colin from rsf is a fat pig

Cala a bitch

Cara lisham

[Plan9]

Alister McRae- Got awesome drives with Subaru, Hyundai, Mitsubishi, Group N Subaru and now Proton and not not done anything worthwhile with any of them. I am open to rebuttals on his performances in these cars.

Guy Wilks- I like him but I cannot understand what has gone wrong in IRC, JWRC, PWRC and why he couldn't get money for a WRC Subaru. I think there is something in that.

Armin Schwartz- Good guy but only won 1 rally and was in several good cars Toyota, Ford (hyundai, skoda were bad)

Freddy Loix- Good in IRC but didn't do anything in WRC. Maybe he was OK in Sweden in 2003.

Bruno Thiry- similar to Loix

Petter Solberg- Should have defended his 2003 title and won some more rallies. The 2006-7 Subarus were not as bad as 2008 was.

[Nornbugger]

Alister McRae- Got awesome drives with Subaru, Hyundai, Mitsubishi, Group N Subaru and now Proton and not not done anything worthwhile with any of them. I am open to rebuttals on his performances in these cars.
.
2 events (Bulldog and RAC) in a Subaru WRC at the end of '98, was doing very well on the RAC till an off in fog, did well against his team mates in his other WRC drives, getting past it now but I think he deserved all the chances he got

I dont like the title of this thread, but if you want to talk about drivers who have had more opportunity than their talent deserves maybe Henning deserves a mention? That said he has gone out and got the sponsors

[urabus-denoS2000]

Alister McRae- Got awesome drives with Subaru, Hyundai, Mitsubishi, Group N Subaru and now Proton and not not done anything worthwhile with any of them. I am open to rebuttals on his performances in these cars.

Guy Wilks- I like him but I cannot understand what has gone wrong in IRC, JWRC, PWRC and why he couldn't get money for a WRC Subaru. I think there is something in that.

Armin Schwartz- Good guy but only won 1 rally and was in several good cars Toyota, Ford (hyundai, skoda were bad)

Freddy Loix- Good in IRC but didn't do anything in WRC. Maybe he was OK in Sweden in 2003.

Bruno Thiry- similar to Loix

Petter Solberg- Should have defended his 2003 title and won some more rallies. The 2006-7 Subarus were not as bad as 2008 was.


You are putting some very complicated stuff into very simple sentences ;) About Loix - name one number 2 Mitshubishi driver who did well in a Makkinen-oriented team , with Makkinen-developed cars with Makkinen-developed set up ? About Solberg , the last competitive model was the S11 ...

[Barreis]

Burns did well when was mitsu nr2.

[urabus-denoS2000]

Burns did well when was mitsu nr2.

Okay except for him ... ;)

[AndyRAC]

Have people forgotten when Loix drove the Toyota, both the Celica & Corolla? He put in some very impressive drives. I wouldn't take too much notice of what happened at Mitsubishi, especially after the Safari accident.

[Barreis]

Liked what he did in 1998 Acropolis with corolla.

[urabus-denoS2000]

If the question was who is the most underrated driver , only one name would come to my mind : Dani Sordo .

[N.O.T]

If the question was who is the most underrated driver , only one name would come to my mind : Dani Sordo .

i think such thread would make much more sense..... Auriol would be my answer.

[Langdale Forest]

i think such thread would make much more sense..... Auriol would be my answer.

and how about Bision...... you seem to like deminishing him.....








Auriol was a world champion, so it is hard for them to be overrated.

[urabus-denoS2000]

i think such thread would make much more sense..... Auriol would be my answer.

True , I can't really think of any driver who is overrated ... Underrated , however , there are quite a lot of them ...

[Plan9]

I would also add Burns to over-rated (but I want to do it in the most respectful manner possible). He got 10 wins, which I w\think considering the circumstances was impressive. He did win in Mitsubishi with Tommi, unlike Loix. He got a video game that I think was a bit over-rated as it was not so good on ps2 but seems to have a life of its own on PC. I was disappointed when he went to Peugeot for 2002. I think that the writing was on the wall of the garage there that he wasn't going to be allowed to win a rally (this is one of the reasons I think he is a bit overrated). In my view he went to Peugeot to get a good car which is fine but he would have mounted a more robust defense of his title in the Subaru. Also, Burns did tend to over think things and I think that may have caused him to lose focus and give away some of the wins he should have had (I would site some of his performances in Finland from 1999-2001).

That being said I did admire his driving style, which is now ubiquitous in the WRC to all driver who want to do well. I think that is his main legacy.

Can we have a thread concerning under-performing manufacturers. People seem to use them as red herring arguments to beat Ford, Subaru and even Mini when they can't think of anything better to add.

[bretddog]

over-rated
..you mean underrated ? ;)

[RobertS]

Freddy Loix- Good in IRC but didn't do anything in WRC. Maybe he was OK in Sweden in 2003.
Few 'moments' of Loix:

'96 San-Remo - If I remember right Colin and Carlos fought for the victory, but if we see the last day only - on wet tarmac - Freddy was the quickest guy there with the Celica >

juwra.com**|**Rallies - San Remo 1996 stage winners (http://www.juwra.com/sanremo_1996_stage_winners.html)


In Portugal '98 with the Marlboro-Corolla >

juwra.com**|**Rallies - Portugal 1998 stage winners (http://www.juwra.com/portugal_1998_stage_winners.html)

[RobertS]

Kenneth Eriksson

If we see him when he was the No.1. at the Mitsu...

[bowler]

It's hard to say that any are "over rated". There are always some better than others, and someone will always come second.

[Woodeye]

You are putting some very complicated stuff into very simple sentences ;) About Loix - name one number 2 Mitshubishi driver who did well in a Makkinen-oriented team , with Makkinen-developed cars with Makkinen-developed set up ? About Solberg , the last competitive model was the S11 ...

Never heard of Makkinen. Mäkinen I know, he drove for Mitsubishi, but who is this Makkinen? :)

I'd say that Meeke is overrated. He has been named the next great british driver after Colin, but he has been now named something like 10 years in a row. We are still waiting.

[Karukera]

It has to be Freddy Loix.
He has an amazing record of lame excuses.
He looked promising at Toyota but never really delivered. He was once nominated by Ove Andersson (RIP) in Catalunya over Auriol, the latter won the rally, Loix was humiliated and talked a massive load of bs excuses.

Moved to Mitsubishi with big $ in his pockets, had "unfortunate" seat problems in every of his Mitsubishis. Did zero at Mitsubishi.

He then moved to Hyundaï, said between the lines the car was crap, it was ok, but when a semi retired Kankkunen came in, smoking a cigar, driving with one hand, he scored more points than Loix in 9 out of 14 rallies for Loix. Even worse for Loix, Kankkunen scored the majority of Hyundaï's miserable 10 manu points.

He was picked up by Peugeot in 2004, complained a lot about the 307 which obviously was not up the marque's standards, ok, but again failed to collect manu points.
Peugeot fired Loix, called back Rovanperä, immediate effect, Peugeot quickly came back in the makes race.

Loix stayed way too much time in the WRC. His only success is to have delusioned 4 WRC teams.
IRC fits him well.

[Lousada]

Matt Wilson. He came into the sport on a 5 year plan to become world champion. Big budget, top cars, many rallies. 5 years later and it turns out he is perhaps the worst professional rally driver ever.

[Josti]

It has to be Freddy Loix.
He has an amazing record of lame excuses.
He looked promising at Toyota but never really delivered. He was once nominated by Ove Andersson (RIP) in Catalunya over Auriol, the latter won the rally, Loix was humiliated and talked a massive load of bs excuses.

I think it was rather embarrassing for Andersson. Less experienced Loix came a good 2nd though.



Moved to Mitsubishi with big $ in his pockets, had "unfortunate" seat problems in every of his Mitsubishis. Did zero at Mitsubishi.

Marlboro sponsoring obviously helped him. Never on par with Mäkinen, indeed, but we know Mitsubishi was structured around him. '99 Safari crash crushed his confidence a bit.



He then moved to Hyundaï, said between the lines the car was crap, it was ok, but when a semi retired Kankkunen came in, smoking a cigar, driving with one hand, he scored more points than Loix in 9 out of 14 rallies for Loix. Even worse for Loix, Kankkunen scored the majority of Hyundaï's miserable 10 manu points.

In such a strong field, the Accent was not good enough for consistent points (especially back then when only places 1 to 6 could score). Did better then teammate Schwarz at least. Remember Loix was quite impressive in Sweden with a broken foot. Outscored (whilst just margely) by Kankkunen, ok, but he is of a different caliber.



He was picked up by Peugeot in 2004, complained a lot about the 307 which obviously was not up the marque's standards, ok, but again failed to collect manu points.
Peugeot fired Loix, called back Rovanperä, immediate effect, Peugeot quickly came back in the makes race.

Difficult situation. High profile team, brand new car which wasn't on par with the rest (as Loix, Grönholm complained just as much). Provera didn't want to lose name and took a safe option with Rovanperä on gravel, while I don't think Loix would've done much worse, if any.

Of course by then, Loix was past his prime in WRC. Had he been in a Toyota for '99, things might have panned out different for him.

[Barreis]

Loix stepped in for peugeot after good performance in GB as a replacement for Burns.

[Fly_Half]

I would also add Burns to over-rated.

It's not often this happens, but I'm absolutely speechless. How can a Rally driver be considered 'over-rated' after winning the bloody World Championship?!

Some people just shouldn't be allowed on the Internet.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Matt Wilson. He came into the sport on a 5 year plan to become world champion. Big budget, top cars, many rallies. 5 years later and it turns out he is perhaps the worst professional rally driver ever.

Think you hit the nail in the coffin! Now I know what over rated means!

[urabus-denoS2000]

Never heard of Makkinen. Mäkinen I know, he drove for Mitsubishi, but who is this Makkinen? :)

I'd say that Meeke is overrated. He has been named the next great british driver after Colin, but he has been now named something like 10 years in a row. We are still waiting.

I'm sorry my Finnish friend , a Central-European man gets lost in all the Häkkinen's , Mäkinen's , Hänninen's , Kankkunen's , Räikkönen's .... ;)

[Woodeye]

I'm sorry my Finnish friend , a Central-European man gets lost in all the Häkkinen's , Mäkinen's , Hänninen's , Kankkunen's , Räikkönen's .... ;)

Hehehe... now that you put it like that I get the point. It's easy for a native, but might be a bit harder for someone else. :)

[Wim_Impreza]

Per-Gunnar Andersson: I can't see good final results in international events outside Sweden by him and in the JWRC he wasn't that fast too.

[urabus-denoS2000]

I always found Timo Salonen to be underrated . Don't know why , but it seems to me very few people don't take him as a true champion . He was always in the shadow a bit from the stars of that time like Vatanen , Toivonen , Rohrl and Alen . In the time he was actually the 2nd driver in Peugeot , since Vatanen was the dominant driver at the time , until his Argentina crash occured . He then dominated the whole season , with a string of majestic , powerful and controlled drives . I like him quite a lot , his character is one of the best in the WRC for me ( overweight , relaxed , always with a cigarette and with those "geek" glases - how about that for a change ? :D ) . He held the record for victories in a row ( 4 ) until Loeb came , which is quite a long time . He is trully a great driver and a great champion in my opinion .

Same can be said for Auriol in my opinion ( the man finished 3rd in 1992 - with 6 victories and one 1 point finish ! ) ...

[Plan9]

Does anyone have an opinion on Patrick Sandell?

[urabus-denoS2000]

Does anyone have an opinion on Patrick Sandell?

I have an opinion that he is just a modest international rally driver . After seeing him twice in Croatia , I have a very low opinion on him as a world rally driver . A perfect barrier between the good and the bad , with occasional signs of speed .

[Plan9]

I have an opinion that he is just a modest international rally driver . After seeing him twice in Croatia , I have a very low opinion on him as a world rally driver . A perfect barrier between the good and the bad , with occasional signs of speed .
I didn't follow him that closely to be honest. I saw him in SWRC & in NZ last year and he didn't make to much of an impression. Do you think that Burcu Cetinkaya may be over-rated or under-rated? It's hard for me to judge as in NZ Emma Gilmour is currently the only female rally driver that gets attention (I think that she does have potential).

[urabus-denoS2000]

I think Burcu Cetinkaya isn't good enough to be under or over rated , I think she is just very bad :)

[Mitch555]

Alister McRae
Guy Wilks
Armin Schwartz
Freddy Loix
Bruno Thiry
Petter Solberg

Good list Plan9, everyone has their own opinions (as you'll see!), I think deeper research is always required. And there isn't much we can do in that area sadly.

Alister McRae - 1 WRC drive in Subaru where he was going for the podium until he DNFed. Hyundai was a dud car, yet he was still able to get acceptable results, 6th in Portugal and 4th in GB in 2001, could have led in NZ 2001, but team decided to make McRae lose time for road position and give Eriksson the lead as McRae had a better chance of winning. This is arguably one of the most competitive championships in that era, along with 2002 (apart from Gronholm factor) and in 2003.

2002 at Mitsubishi: the car was a disaster, Alister did really well in Sweden and once the car was sufficiently well developed he did drive it well in New Zealand 2003. And we can not learn anything from the Proton. The car is a complete failure, poorly designed. Also the nature of the APRC rallies generally don't suit the S2000 car. New Caledonia and Japan are probably the best, but the S2000 has a shorter gearbox, meaning they are on the redline a fair amount, unlike the Group N cars which can achieve 220kph. The Satria is lucky to get to 200 :P

Guy Wilks - is definitely over-rated. Especially now that he drives for Peugeot UK. He has driven shockingly, his crash in Sanremo this year was nothing short of shocking. Blamed it on the conditions when in reality he wasn't listening to the co-driver and came into the corner in 4th gear when he should have been in 2nd/low revs 3rd. Now he is a man full of excuses. It's harsh to judge him on not finding the sponsorship for a Subaru drive though. Running a WRC car is a fair lot more expensive than PWRC, we are talking a million+ euro easy for some European rounds. He just got squeezed out when the 2 car teams returned in 2004. He might have had a drive 2006 otherwise.

Armin Schwarz - as much as people bag him, he is one of those drivers who had the talent, but didn't quite get it together whether it was his driving or the car's fault. Those early Toyota days were fast, 5th on his first ever Monte Carlo. We then don't give him credit for helping to develop the early Lancers with Eriksson, 3 podiums in 9 starts. Played third fiddle to Kankkunen and Auriol in 1995. 1997 was 4th after 4 rounds, then had two bad rallies on tarmac and was replaced by Kankkunen, which is kind of crap to compare when you have the choice between the most successful driver at the time and Schwarz :P Then he moved to Skoda, and he did really well considering he was developing a huge car, which was great on the rough, but arguably his performance in 2001 Monte Carlo is stuff of legend, fighting for a podium finish against the heavy weights. At Hyundai we saw glimpses of brilliance, he was then getting old, and the car wasn't very good. Back to Skoda where he further developed the Fabia. We never saw it at the time, but he, Auriol and Gardemeister developed quite a weapon when the likes of McRae, Duval (Monte 06) and a young Kopecky took the wheel. So I would say underrated. One of the best technical minds in the sport.

Freddy Loix - Hard to say. Great in the Celica, and some fine performances in the Corolla. Being part of a factory team quietened some of his desire I feel. Yet when he got to Hyundai, he really did have some fine performances. Battling for a podium in Sweden 2002 with a broken leg always springs to mind as one of the bravest drives by any driver. In 2004, he was unlucky with the 2 car rule. I reckon he would have been kept on if there was the need for a third driver, or Rovanpera would have filled third spot for gravel, Robert on tarmac. Inconsistency was his enemy with some great drives at Mitsubishi (remember 99 when he fended off Burns and Kankkunen in Spain by over 2 minutes?), Hyundai and now even in the Fabia S2000. I think he really made some wrong choices in teams in the end.

Bruno Thiry - Somewhere between Schwarz and Loix. He is like Liatti in some senses. Never really been given the credit he deserves. He was wild, yet very deserving of his drives. Lots of points finishes for Ford in 1996/96 and again in 98. His drives with Skoda weren't the best, yet put him in the privateer Corolla or 206, and his performances were still mixing with the top guys. Not overrated, nor underrated. Solid driver I feel, took the full time poor team rather than privateering in a decent car which cost him in the end.

Petter Solberg - his driving from 2001 to 2005 was nothing short of exhilarating. First he let himself down through mistakes, then the car came into play. 2004 was really tough, as he had been previously mentored by Makinen for two years, and formerly by McRae in his Ford days. Although he was WRC champ, Petter wasn't ready to mentor in 2004. He did a lot of growing up in 2003, but almost too much. I feel 2004 may have been different if Makinen stayed on in an advisory role, and/or Subaru hired Colin McRae instead of Mikko Hirvonen. Could have been one of the worst decisions made in the modern era of the WRC in driver signings. I feel this would have taken pressure off Solberg and let him drive a bit more naturally and not be as stressed and intent on winning in 2004 rather than consistency which got him to the 2003 drivers title. His patch of 3 retirements in a row in 2004 really sapped his confidence. Then he had to develop Atkinson, who had the same Solberg-itis of fast but crashing, a hard thing to fix, then a car which was uncompetitive with numerous niggling problems. His latest years have been dogged by second rate Citroens. If Petter moved to Mini or VW, or paired up with Block in a Ford and freed up his money resources a bit we might see Petter back up there.

Most underrated driver I believe is one we have forgotten, Manfred Stohl. His achievement in 2006 with the 307 WRC run by his 'OMV Bozian Peugeot Norway' was a major collaborative effort yet he did make that car competitive, and was already a veteran of the sport at the time. Got dogged with a slower Xsara in 2007 probably to ensure that the C4 of Sordo would not be pressured into mistakes and be beaten by the Xsara on pace alone, that would have been a disaster.

Is Matt Wilson overrated in my books? He doesn't even rate a mention in my books ;)

My final parting note is this...

WRC is a sport of high variance in conditions. In order to become a 'successful' driver, more is needed than just driving skill. Driver attitude & confidence, co-driver ability, co-driver's psychological impact on the driver in the car, the car, tyres, the team personnel, the level of development and change of the car during the season, the financial status of the driver if self funding and the financial status of the team they competed in, decisions made on where drivers went (long term security of low rank manufacturer versus short term gain of privateer in a good car). Many of you would have changed your opinion of Antony Warmbold since he visited these forums, and scenarios like his would have been played out many times before. So it is very hard to pick on drivers without the knowledge insiders have.

[Hartusvuori]

^ Best post in here for months. It's not necessary to agree on all, but you definitely put the effort and insight that is highly appreciated. If you'd write a book, I'd get it.

[RobertS]

Armin Schwarz - as much as people bag him, he is one of those drivers who had the talent, but didn't quite get it together whether it was his driving or the car's fault. Those early Toyota days were fast, 5th on his first ever Monte Carlo. We then don't give him credit for helping to develop the early Lancers with Eriksson, 3 podiums in 9 starts. Played third fiddle to Kankkunen and Auriol in 1995. 1997 was 4th after 4 rounds, then had two bad rallies on tarmac and was replaced by Kankkunen, which is kind of crap to compare when you have the choice between the most successful driver at the time and Schwarz :P Then he moved to Skoda, and he did really well considering he was developing a huge car, which was great on the rough, but arguably his performance in 2001 Monte Carlo is stuff of legend, fighting for a podium finish against the heavy weights. At Hyundai we saw glimpses of brilliance, he was then getting old, and the car wasn't very good. Back to Skoda where he further developed the Fabia. We never saw it at the time, but he, Auriol and Gardemeister developed quite a weapon when the likes of McRae, Duval (Monte 06) and a young Kopecky took the wheel. So I would say underrated. One of the best technical minds in the sport.
Few more great 'moments' from Armin Schwaz:

1994 Monte-Carlo with the Mitsubishi Lancer Evo I
juwra.com**|**Rallies - Monte Carlo 1994 stage winners (http://www.juwra.com/monte_carlo_1994_stage_winners.html)

1992 Monte - in the middle of the Lancia-Toyota war
juwra.com**|**Rallies - Monte Carlo 1992 stage winners (http://www.juwra.com/monte_carlo_1992_stage_winners.html)
It was not easy to win stages on tarmac when Auriol-Sainz-Delecour run too with competitive cars...

[BDunnell]

Yes, a splendid post indeed — a rare commodity on these forums nowadays.

I'd add that the drive by Schwarz to fifth on the 1988 RAC in his by then outdated Audi 200 Quattro was outstanding. Yes, the conditions probably favoured his car, but it was a performance that to some extent came out of nowhere.

[mousti]

Around the world the most overrated driver is Ken Block I think... He's quite famous and I wouldn't be surprised if many people think that he's one of the top drivers in the WRC. On this forum, it's hard to say who's overrated... Some people here say Hirvonen is most overrated, but on this forum, I think Hirvonen's the last guy who is overrated.
That's more the fault of the mainstream people who doesn't follow rally at all. I know he's very proud of his good result in Alsace and knows he'll be never a top 5 driver. Matt Wilson is more overrated then, and oh yeah there will come reactions again some bashing on him. But the news reports that u read about him plus alot of fans who follow the world of rallying are still sometimes complimenting and still believing in him and that's really bad I think because he was a complete failure in Germany. That's for me overrated.

It's a pity we never saw Andreucci complete a full international program with a very fast car.

[BDunnell]

Matt Wilson is more overrated

By whom?

[jonas_mcrae]

by WRC.com of course!

[Barreis]

Good list Plan9, everyone has their own opinions (as you'll see!), I think deeper research is always required. And there isn't much we can do in that area sadly.

Alister McRae - 1 WRC drive in Subaru where he was going for the podium until he DNFed. Hyundai was a dud car, yet he was still able to get acceptable results, 6th in Portugal and 4th in GB in 2001, could have led in NZ 2001, but team decided to make McRae lose time for road position and give Eriksson the lead as McRae had a better chance of winning. This is arguably one of the most competitive championships in that era, along with 2002 (apart from Gronholm factor) and in 2003.

2002 at Mitsubishi: the car was a disaster, Alister did really well in Sweden and once the car was sufficiently well developed he did drive it well in New Zealand 2003. And we can not learn anything from the Proton. The car is a complete failure, poorly designed. Also the nature of the APRC rallies generally don't suit the S2000 car. New Caledonia and Japan are probably the best, but the S2000 has a shorter gearbox, meaning they are on the redline a fair amount, unlike the Group N cars which can achieve 220kph. The Satria is lucky to get to 200 :P

Guy Wilks - is definitely over-rated. Especially now that he drives for Peugeot UK. He has driven shockingly, his crash in Sanremo this year was nothing short of shocking. Blamed it on the conditions when in reality he wasn't listening to the co-driver and came into the corner in 4th gear when he should have been in 2nd/low revs 3rd. Now he is a man full of excuses. It's harsh to judge him on not finding the sponsorship for a Subaru drive though. Running a WRC car is a fair lot more expensive than PWRC, we are talking a million+ euro easy for some European rounds. He just got squeezed out when the 2 car teams returned in 2004. He might have had a drive 2006 otherwise.

Armin Schwarz - as much as people bag him, he is one of those drivers who had the talent, but didn't quite get it together whether it was his driving or the car's fault. Those early Toyota days were fast, 5th on his first ever Monte Carlo. We then don't give him credit for helping to develop the early Lancers with Eriksson, 3 podiums in 9 starts. Played third fiddle to Kankkunen and Auriol in 1995. 1997 was 4th after 4 rounds, then had two bad rallies on tarmac and was replaced by Kankkunen, which is kind of crap to compare when you have the choice between the most successful driver at the time and Schwarz :P Then he moved to Skoda, and he did really well considering he was developing a huge car, which was great on the rough, but arguably his performance in 2001 Monte Carlo is stuff of legend, fighting for a podium finish against the heavy weights. At Hyundai we saw glimpses of brilliance, he was then getting old, and the car wasn't very good. Back to Skoda where he further developed the Fabia. We never saw it at the time, but he, Auriol and Gardemeister developed quite a weapon when the likes of McRae, Duval (Monte 06) and a young Kopecky took the wheel. So I would say underrated. One of the best technical minds in the sport.

Freddy Loix - Hard to say. Great in the Celica, and some fine performances in the Corolla. Being part of a factory team quietened some of his desire I feel. Yet when he got to Hyundai, he really did have some fine performances. Battling for a podium in Sweden 2002 with a broken leg always springs to mind as one of the bravest drives by any driver. In 2004, he was unlucky with the 2 car rule. I reckon he would have been kept on if there was the need for a third driver, or Rovanpera would have filled third spot for gravel, Robert on tarmac. Inconsistency was his enemy with some great drives at Mitsubishi (remember 99 when he fended off Burns and Kankkunen in Spain by over 2 minutes?), Hyundai and now even in the Fabia S2000. I think he really made some wrong choices in teams in the end.

Bruno Thiry - Somewhere between Schwarz and Loix. He is like Liatti in some senses. Never really been given the credit he deserves. He was wild, yet very deserving of his drives. Lots of points finishes for Ford in 1996/96 and again in 98. His drives with Skoda weren't the best, yet put him in the privateer Corolla or 206, and his performances were still mixing with the top guys. Not overrated, nor underrated. Solid driver I feel, took the full time poor team rather than privateering in a decent car which cost him in the end.

Petter Solberg - his driving from 2001 to 2005 was nothing short of exhilarating. First he let himself down through mistakes, then the car came into play. 2004 was really tough, as he had been previously mentored by Makinen for two years, and formerly by McRae in his Ford days. Although he was WRC champ, Petter wasn't ready to mentor in 2004. He did a lot of growing up in 2003, but almost too much. I feel 2004 may have been different if Makinen stayed on in an advisory role, and/or Subaru hired Colin McRae instead of Mikko Hirvonen. Could have been one of the worst decisions made in the modern era of the WRC in driver signings. I feel this would have taken pressure off Solberg and let him drive a bit more naturally and not be as stressed and intent on winning in 2004 rather than consistency which got him to the 2003 drivers title. His patch of 3 retirements in a row in 2004 really sapped his confidence. Then he had to develop Atkinson, who had the same Solberg-itis of fast but crashing, a hard thing to fix, then a car which was uncompetitive with numerous niggling problems. His latest years have been dogged by second rate Citroens. If Petter moved to Mini or VW, or paired up with Block in a Ford and freed up his money resources a bit we might see Petter back up there.

Most underrated driver I believe is one we have forgotten, Manfred Stohl. His achievement in 2006 with the 307 WRC run by his 'OMV Bozian Peugeot Norway' was a major collaborative effort yet he did make that car competitive, and was already a veteran of the sport at the time. Got dogged with a slower Xsara in 2007 probably to ensure that the C4 of Sordo would not be pressured into mistakes and be beaten by the Xsara on pace alone, that would have been a disaster.

Is Matt Wilson overrated in my books? He doesn't even rate a mention in my books ;)

My final parting note is this...

WRC is a sport of high variance in conditions. In order to become a 'successful' driver, more is needed than just driving skill. Driver attitude & confidence, co-driver ability, co-driver's psychological impact on the driver in the car, the car, tyres, the team personnel, the level of development and change of the car during the season, the financial status of the driver if self funding and the financial status of the team they competed in, decisions made on where drivers went (long term security of low rank manufacturer versus short term gain of privateer in a good car). Many of you would have changed your opinion of Antony Warmbold since he visited these forums, and scenarios like his would have been played out many times before. So it is very hard to pick on drivers without the knowledge insiders have.

Liatti was the real tarmac driver. Also won MC what I like. Still remember fine performances from 1998.

[wrc1600]

Duval

[focus206]

It's a pity we never saw Andreucci complete a full international program with a very fast car.

Yes, and now it's a bit late... Andreucci is very fast in Italian rallies, he knows very well each rally of the National championship, but he never did any relevant rally on international ground. Now I don't think he would be fast on championships like IRC, since he have no experience outside Italy.

[Allyc85]

G


Guy Wilks - is definitely over-rated. Especially now that he drives for Peugeot UK. He has driven shockingly, his crash in Sanremo this year was nothing short of shocking. Blamed it on the conditions when in reality he wasn't listening to the co-driver and came into the corner in 4th gear when he should have been in 2nd/low revs 3rd. Now he is a man full of excuses. It's harsh to judge him on not finding the sponsorship for a Subaru drive though. Running a WRC car is a fair lot more expensive than PWRC, we are talking a million+ euro easy for some European rounds. He just got squeezed out when the 2 car teams returned in 2004. He might have had a drive 2006 otherwise.



Guy did get the money together, but Subaru pulled out of the WRC the day before he was due to sign the deal with Prodrive!

[Doon]

I think we have to look the cash private drivers have to lay down and how much testing they can do. In my eyes Mark Higgins could have been a top driver and takes my underestimated driver award.....was running in 4th on Rally GB 2001 (before Ford pulled their cars due to the Sainz crash) despite never having drive a WRC in competition. Even his outings in an old Focus WRC he was quick, and was by far the quickest in the PWRC during both years he competed.

Over estimated driver, in terms of popularity to achievements has to be Solberg. I like the guy though and he can still be quick. Mcrae went of the boil when he joined Citroen and never got any quicker (slower possible), so after 2003 he was overrated.

[Plan9]

I think we have to look the cash private drivers have to lay down and how much testing they can do. In my eyes Mark Higgins could have been a top driver and takes my underestimated driver award.....was running in 4th on Rally GB 2001 (before Ford pulled their cars due to the Sainz crash) despite never having drive a WRC in competition. Even his outings in an old Focus WRC he was quick, and was by far the quickest in the PWRC during both years he competed.

Over estimated driver, in terms of popularity to achievements has to be Solberg. I like the guy though and he can still be quick. Mcrae went of the boil when he joined Citroen and never got any quicker (slower possible), so after 2003 he was overrated.

Be careful what you say about some British rally champions around here. I made that mistake and regretted it =p But I agree that some world champions have been a bit over-hyped; mostly be media and car companies wanting to boost their brand images with the young I'm guessing; which of course they are entitled to do.

[Doon]

Haha, why about the British Rally Champions? Higgins dominated for years (ones where he had funding for a decent car) and won in 3 types of car, F2, WRC and Grp N. Is there any more of a rounded Champion? Nobody can say he wasn't quick.

[Doon]

Only other current UK driver worthy of a WRC drive, except Kris Meeke , is Craig Breen. That lad is pretty impressive. Was awesome in Sweden in the SWRC, has shown everyone up on terms od pace in the WRC Academy, and was mega fast on the IRC Scotland round.

[N.O.T]

you still confuse the meaning of the word overated with someone being slow, no good, a tourist ects....you can be a tourist and still be underated, and a multiple champion and be overated and visa versa.

[Plan9]

Good list Plan9, everyone has their own opinions (as you'll see!), I think deeper research is always required. And there isn't much we can do in that area sadly.

Alister McRae - 1 WRC drive in Subaru where he was going for the podium until he DNFed. Hyundai was a dud car, yet he was still able to get acceptable results, 6th in Portugal and 4th in GB in 2001, could have led in NZ 2001, but team decided to make McRae lose time for road position and give Eriksson the lead as McRae had a better chance of winning. This is arguably one of the most competitive championships in that era, along with 2002 (apart from Gronholm factor) and in 2003.

2002 at Mitsubishi: the car was a disaster, Alister did really well in Sweden and once the car was sufficiently well developed he did drive it well in New Zealand 2003. And we can not learn anything from the Proton. The car is a complete failure, poorly designed. Also the nature of the APRC rallies generally don't suit the S2000 car. New Caledonia and Japan are probably the best, but the S2000 has a shorter gearbox, meaning they are on the redline a fair amount, unlike the Group N cars which can achieve 220kph. The Satria is lucky to get to 200 :P

I think Alister may also have suffered because, like Ralf Schumacher, he was involved in a high profile sport next to a highly rated big brother. I used to watch and read RallyXS on T.V. and there were always comments about Alister's lack of speed compared to Colin's. I called him over-rated as he seemed to always get good, well funded drives with Hyundai and Mitsubishi and did not manage to get the most out of them.

Rally XS once had an interesting story about Colin and Alister forming a McRae WRT and using factory Subarus. I am still hopeful that something involving Alister in the WRC will eventuate.

Guy Wilks - is definitely over-rated. Especially now that he drives for Peugeot UK. He has driven shockingly, his crash in Sanremo this year was nothing short of shocking. Blamed it on the conditions when in reality he wasn't listening to the co-driver and came into the corner in 4th gear when he should have been in 2nd/low revs 3rd. Now he is a man full of excuses. It's harsh to judge him on not finding the sponsorship for a Subaru drive though. Running a WRC car is a fair lot more expensive than PWRC, we are talking a million+ euro easy for some European rounds. He just got squeezed out when the 2 car teams returned in 2004. He might have had a drive 2006 otherwise.

I think it was a shame that during the 2004-06 period there were not as many customers as there are now. I think one of the bigger gentlemen operations could have included him quite successfully. I always though Subaru was going to have a B team like Ford. But of course it did not eventuate.

Armin Schwarz - as much as people bag him, he is one of those drivers who had the talent, but didn't quite get it together whether it was his driving or the car's fault. Those early Toyota days were fast, 5th on his first ever Monte Carlo. We then don't give him credit for helping to develop the early Lancers with Eriksson, 3 podiums in 9 starts. Played third fiddle to Kankkunen and Auriol in 1995. 1997 was 4th after 4 rounds, then had two bad rallies on tarmac and was replaced by Kankkunen, which is kind of crap to compare when you have the choice between the most successful driver at the time and Schwarz :P Then he moved to Skoda, and he did really well considering he was developing a huge car, which was great on the rough, but arguably his performance in 2001 Monte Carlo is stuff of legend, fighting for a podium finish against the heavy weights. At Hyundai we saw glimpses of brilliance, he was then getting old, and the car wasn't very good. Back to Skoda where he further developed the Fabia. We never saw it at the time, but he, Auriol and Gardemeister developed quite a weapon when the likes of McRae, Duval (Monte 06) and a young Kopecky took the wheel. So I would say underrated. One of the best technical minds in the sport.

Freddy Loix - Hard to say. Great in the Celica, and some fine performances in the Corolla. Being part of a factory team quietened some of his desire I feel. Yet when he got to Hyundai, he really did have some fine performances. Battling for a podium in Sweden 2002 with a broken leg always springs to mind as one of the bravest drives by any driver. In 2004, he was unlucky with the 2 car rule. I reckon he would have been kept on if there was the need for a third driver, or Rovanpera would have filled third spot for gravel, Robert on tarmac. Inconsistency was his enemy with some great drives at Mitsubishi (remember 99 when he fended off Burns and Kankkunen in Spain by over 2 minutes?), Hyundai and now even in the Fabia S2000. I think he really made some wrong choices in teams in the end.

Bruno Thiry - Somewhere between Schwarz and Loix. He is like Liatti in some senses. Never really been given the credit he deserves. He was wild, yet very deserving of his drives. Lots of points finishes for Ford in 1996/96 and again in 98. His drives with Skoda weren't the best, yet put him in the privateer Corolla or 206, and his performances were still mixing with the top guys. Not overrated, nor underrated. Solid driver I feel, took the full time poor team rather than privateering in a decent car which cost him in the end.

Petter Solberg - his driving from 2001 to 2005 was nothing short of exhilarating. First he let himself down through mistakes, then the car came into play. 2004 was really tough, as he had been previously mentored by Makinen for two years, and formerly by McRae in his Ford days. Although he was WRC champ, Petter wasn't ready to mentor in 2004. He did a lot of growing up in 2003, but almost too much. I feel 2004 may have been different if Makinen stayed on in an advisory role, and/or Subaru hired Colin McRae instead of Mikko Hirvonen. Could have been one of the worst decisions made in the modern era of the WRC in driver signings. I feel this would have taken pressure off Solberg and let him drive a bit more naturally and not be as stressed and intent on winning in 2004 rather than consistency which got him to the 2003 drivers title. His patch of 3 retirements in a row in 2004 really sapped his confidence. Then he had to develop Atkinson, who had the same Solberg-itis of fast but crashing, a hard thing to fix, then a car which was uncompetitive with numerous niggling problems. His latest years have been dogged by second rate Citroens. If Petter moved to Mini or VW, or paired up with Block in a Ford and freed up his money resources a bit we might see Petter back up there.

very insightful comments about Petter. I agree absolutely. I have to say he was hyped a bit too much by the media though.

Why did they hire Mikko to Subaru after all? It was a shocking decision. I think they needed to find a quick replacement as Burns obviously could not take up the 3 year deal he signed with Prodrive in 2003. What was the official reason that Colin was not hired? Was it something to do with the abolition of 3 car teams?

Its very popular to team Block and Solberg up at the moment. Does Block have the money?

Most underrated driver I believe is one we have forgotten, Manfred Stohl. His achievement in 2006 with the 307 WRC run by his 'OMV Bozian Peugeot Norway' was a major collaborative effort yet he did make that car competitive, and was already a veteran of the sport at the time. Got dogged with a slower Xsara in 2007 probably to ensure that the C4 of Sordo would not be pressured into mistakes and be beaten by the Xsara on pace alone, that would have been a disaster.

Is Matt Wilson overrated in my books? He doesn't even rate a mention in my books ;)

My final parting note is this...

WRC is a sport of high variance in conditions. In order to become a 'successful' driver, more is needed than just driving skill. Driver attitude & confidence, co-driver ability, co-driver's psychological impact on the driver in the car, the car, tyres, the team personnel, the level of development and change of the car during the season, the financial status of the driver if self funding and the financial status of the team they competed in, decisions made on where drivers went (long term security of low rank manufacturer versus short term gain of privateer in a good car). Many of you would have changed your opinion of Antony Warmbold since he visited these forums, and scenarios like his would have been played out many times before. So it is very hard to pick on drivers without the knowledge insiders have.

This has been very useful!

[Doon]

you still confuse the meaning of the word overated with someone being slow, no good, a tourist ects....you can be a tourist and still be underated, and a multiple champion and be overated and visa versa.

Are you saying that Mark Higgins and Craig Breen are overrated and just tourists? Only a question, please dont get offended and have a rant at me.

[Plan9]

Haha, why about the British Rally Champions? Higgins dominated for years (ones where he had funding for a decent car) and won in 3 types of car, F2, WRC and Grp N. Is there any more of a rounded Champion? Nobody can say he wasn't quick.
Well in an earlier post I made some comments about the 2001 World Champ and I got some rants back. I was not at all disrespectful of this dearly missed competitor. I like Higgins as well. I don't think it would be to late for him to get some WRC action in a top car. To be honest if I recall Malcolm Wilson wasn't to shabby either in the British championship.

[N.O.T]

Are you saying that Mark Higgins and Craig Breen are overrated and just tourists? Only a question, please dont get offended and have a rant at me.

it wasn't aimed towards you, i just see that the general trend of the thread tends towards naming good and bad drivers.

As for the names mentioned i think both are very good local rally drivers nothing more nothing less.

[Mitch555]

Guy did get the money together, but Subaru pulled out of the WRC the day before he was due to sign the deal with Prodrive!

Cheers man, didn't quite know that :)

Since we are talking about Italian drivers, I think they might be the most underrated country. Only Liatti and Galli have got into factory teams recently yet they've had a large number of drivers at a decent level. Note some of these drivers do overlap in periods, but only Liatti, Fiorio & Biason I've listed twice ;)

Late 80s
Biason, Cerrato, Zanussi, Tabaton, Fiorio, Alessandrini

1990s
Biason, Aghini, Liatti, Fiorio, Cunico, Pianezzola (not as well known)

2000s
Liatti, Galli, Andreucci, Longhi, Travaglia, Navarra, Rossetti, Basso

Lots of involvement in teams like Aimont and Jolly Club, however most never got full time factory drives. Biason, Liatti and Galli are the most prominent with Navarra, Travaglia and Basso having done IRC with Abarth early on. A lot of talent has come out of Italy in the last 20 or so years.

[Sladden]

"Same can be said for Auriol in my opinion ( the man finished 3rd in 1992 - with 6 victories and one 1 point finish ! ) .."

Totaly agree. Not only good results but very spectacular...all or nothing attacker like Mäkinen and McRae in the 1990s. A winner well into his 40s. But is left in the shadow a bit...

[havk]

When looking at this year IRC results I'm thinking of Toni Gardemasister. Really disappointing results, I expected much better results from him. The similar thing can say about Patrik Sandell.

[Barreis]

Cheers man, didn't quite know that :)

Since we are talking about Italian drivers, I think they might be the most underrated country. Only Liatti and Galli have got into factory teams recently yet they've had a large number of drivers at a decent level. Note some of these drivers do overlap in periods, but only Liatti, Fiorio & Biason I've listed twice ;)

Late 80s
Biason, Cerrato, Zanussi, Tabaton, Fiorio, Alessandrini

1990s
Biason, Aghini, Liatti, Fiorio, Cunico, Pianezzola (not as well known)

2000s
Liatti, Galli, Andreucci, Longhi, Travaglia, Navarra, Rossetti, Basso

Lots of involvement in teams like Aimont and Jolly Club, however most never got full time factory drives. Biason, Liatti and Galli are the most prominent with Navarra, Travaglia and Basso having done IRC with Abarth early on. A lot of talent has come out of Italy in the last 20 or so years.

I can tell you that on the smallest rally in Italy guys are driving like it's the last event in their life. Pedal to da metal.

[Nornbugger]

it wasn't aimed towards you, i just see that the general trend of the thread tends towards naming good and bad drivers.

As for the names mentioned i think both are very good local rally drivers nothing more nothing less.


given that any lad setting out has less than a 1% chance of making it it is quite safe to diss young lads as you just have done with Breen, the odds are against him, but he has shown well for a lad of his age, take a minute (you seem to have plenty of time) and learn about people before you knock them

[N.O.T]

Although i have plenty of time i prefer to spend it wisely and not on never beens and local heros...

next time someone turns it personal i report...i am fed up with everyone getting offended when i say something about a driver/boyfriend who isn't just mindless praise...

[Langdale Forest]

Are you saying that Mark Higgins and Craig Breen are overrated and just tourists? Only a question, please dont get offended and have a rant at me.





it wasn't aimed towards you, i just see that the general trend of the thread tends towards naming good and bad drivers.

As for the names mentioned i think both are very good local rally drivers nothing more nothing less.


Are you saying that a 3 time British champion, Mark Higgins, is a 'local' driver, he is of far better skill than Matthew Wilson.

[tfp]

Are you saying that a 3 time British champion, Mark Higgins, is a 'local' driver, he is of far better skill than Matthew Wilson.

Dont say that, you'll set him off with the Wilson rants again :laugh:

[urabus-denoS2000]

Only other current UK driver worthy of a WRC drive, except Kris Meeke , is Craig Breen. That lad is pretty impressive. Was awesome in Sweden in the SWRC, has shown everyone up on terms od pace in the WRC Academy, and was mega fast on the IRC Scotland round.

Craig Breen is Irish , which has nothing to do with the UK . I really wouldn't like to be Irish on these forums ...

[RobertS]

I must to say - KKK

He was not competitive on tarmac. Except 1995 Catalunya ;)
His best 2x 2nd in Monte-Carlo.

Great champion, one of my favorites, but 'food for thought'...

[N.O.T]

I must to say - KKK

He was not competitive on tarmac. Except 1995 Catalunya ;)
His best 2x 2nd in Monte-Carlo.

Great champion, one of my favorites, but 'food for thought'...

LOL....

the only driver who has won events with Group B cars, Group A cars and WRC
Possibly the best raly car developer ever
4 times world Champion

is overated because he was not that good on tarmac.....i do not think anybody said that he was good on tarmac....

If you guys have problems of coprehending the meaning of words or you cannot get pass through the language barrier here is some help.

o·ver·rat·ed, o·ver·rat·ing, o·ver·rates To overestimate the merits of; rate too highly

now 2 questions

In what way people overestimate kankkunen ?

and

which one of your favourite drivers did he ridicule beyond recognition and you posted that ??

[AndyRAC]

I must to say - KKK

He was not competitive on tarmac. Except 1995 Catalunya ;)
His best 2x 2nd in Monte-Carlo.

Great champion, one of my favorites, but 'food for thought'...

You surely can't be serious??

Won driving GpB Celica, Peugeot 205 T16.
Won driving GpA Lancias, Toyotas, and then the WRC era Impreza....

I'm biased, as he's still my favourite WRC driver - and when I first started following the sport - he was the man!!

[Hartusvuori]

which one of your favourite drivers did he ridicule beyond recognition and you posted that ??

Perhaps Miki Biasion in Monte 1987...

[RobertS]

I'm biased, as he's still my favourite WRC driver - and when I first started following the sport - he was the man!!
For me too.

I am 'thinking' only.
Put KKK in dfferent timeframe, against clearly universal tarmac-gravel drivers like Loeb or Makinen, in a championship with 4-5x tarmac events.

But you can say - it is unfair comparison or what-if only.

For me the rallye is gravel + tarmac + snow-ice...

[N.O.T]

put kkk in dfferent timeframe, against clearly universal tarmac-gravel drivers like loeb or makinen, in a championship with 4-5x tarmac events.


lol...

Wake up...

[ZequeArgentina]

Kankkunen overrated?? jajajaja
How funny!!!


I will supposse the one saying this is someone who was too young or not born at teh time Kankkunen was at his best years.

You should only read what his rival said about Juha at those times!

[Barreis]

Kankkunen could never be overated.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Gigi Galli!

Was never given a real chance

:D

[Barreis]

He had full season with mitsu. Also is a good puncher.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Sorry, good chance in good car after his career in Mitsu :)

[Barreis]

It was bad accident in Germany 2008 that ruined his chance for good season in ford.

[RobertS]

I will supposse the one saying this is someone who was too young or not born at teh time Kankkunen was at his best years.

You should only read what his rival said about Juha at those times!
Why do you insult me?
I did not wrote any personal about you....

If you want to estimate my age - which is absolutely irrelevant here - here are some scanned slides from my personal archives:

Fotos von Fishbed21 - Fotograf | fotocommunity (http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/mypics/1484501/startpic/0)

[N.O.T]

Why do you insult me?
I did not wrote any personal about you....

If you want to estimate my age - which is absolutely irrelevant here - here are some scanned slides from my personal archives:

Fotos von Fishbed21 - Fotograf | fotocommunity (http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/mypics/1484501/startpic/0)

the fact that you are an adult worsens you position actually....

[dimviii]

Why do you insult me?
I did not wrote any personal about you....


Where is this insult? i can t see it!

[tfp]

LOL....

the only driver who has won events with Group B cars, Group A cars and WRC
Possibly the best raly car developer ever
4 times world Champion

is overated because he was not that good on tarmac.....i do not think anybody said that he was good on tarmac....

If you guys have problems of coprehending the meaning of words or you cannot get pass through the language barrier here is some help.

o·ver·rat·ed, o·ver·rat·ing, o·ver·rates To overestimate the merits of; rate too highly

now 2 questions

In what way people overestimate kankkunen ?

and

which one of your favourite drivers did he ridicule beyond recognition and you posted that ??

Well said :up:
Greatest driver ever, in my book.

[ZequeArgentina]

Why do you insult me?
I did not wrote any personal about you....

If you want to estimate my age - which is absolutely irrelevant here - here are some scanned slides from my personal archives:

Fotos von Fishbed21 - Fotograf | fotocommunity (http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/mypics/1484501/startpic/0)

Insult??
Not any aggressive word at all.
<can you point any in my post?
Just the oppossite I am stating your missrating of Juha could just be because you may analize his facts from "modern" view, not considering how rally was raced at those years.
Juha is for sure one of the msot talented drivers of all time, no way to consider him overrated.

read all my post i do not insult people in a Forum, i do not know them, not what anyone really thinks and so one.

[RobertS]

the fact that you are an adult worsens you position actually....

lol...

Wake up...


Insult??
Not any aggressive word at all.
<can you point any in my post?
Just the oppossite I am stating your missrating of Juha could just be because you may analize his facts from "modern" view, not considering how rally was raced at those years.
OK. You can call me for too young or for a senile old-dog, all the same...



Juha is for sure one of the msot talented drivers of all time
Yes for sure - one of the most talented drivers on gravel and snow only.

People are biased in connection with Kankkunen.

One of the greatest drivers? Yes.
Real team-player? Yes.
Great personality? Yes.
KKK has great style....even in smoking ;)
All of these are irrelevant in this discussion.

In any context with the other 'bigs' like Loeb, Makinen(Sainz, Grönholm...) Kannkunen - Kankkunens driving talent - is simply overrated:

o·ver·rat·ed, o·ver·rat·ing, o·ver·rates To overestimate the merits of; rate too highly
Because of these guys had(have) the same speed on gravel-snow, but they were(are) in a completely different league on tarmac.

Like it or not - This is a valid factor with KKK.


Maybe more fair comparison to stay at the big Finnish champions >

Makinen became competitive on tarmac relatively early.
Grönholm had problems with the tarmac too, even in the best tarmac-car-team then, but at the Ford he had some nice results on tarmac(vs. Loeb-Sordo C4!).
Kankkunen run with the best tarmac-cars in his time. Can you show me any same progress in his driving on tarmac?

Obviously a lot of people have double standard here.

Sorry...strong words, but Kankkunens driving talent is overrated, compare with the other big champions.
And this is the only valid comparison for him, he is a great champion.

[N.O.T]

still sleeping i see....

ok.

[rage82]

lol...

Wake up...


OK. You can call me for too young or for a senile old-dog, all the same...


Yes for sure - one of the most talented drivers on gravel and snow only.

People are biased in connection with Kankkunen.

One of the greatest drivers? Yes.
Real team-player? Yes.
Great personality? Yes.
KKK has great style....even in smoking ;)
All of these are irrelevant in this discussion.

In any context with the other 'bigs' like Loeb, Makinen(Sainz, Grönholm...) Kannkunen - Kankkunens driving talent - is simply overrated:

Because of these guys had(have) the same speed on gravel-snow, but they were(are) in a completely different league on tarmac.

Like it or not - This is a valid factor with KKK.


Maybe more fair comparison to stay at the big Finnish champions >

Makinen became competitive on tarmac relatively early.
Grönholm had problems with the tarmac too, even in the best tarmac-car-team then, but at the Ford he had some nice results on tarmac(vs. Loeb-Sordo C4!).
Kankkunen run with the best tarmac-cars in his time. Can you show me any same progress in his driving on tarmac?

Obviously a lot of people have double standard here.

Sorry...strong words, but Kankkunens driving talent is overrated, compare with the other big champions.
And this is the only valid comparison for him, he is a great champion.

Sorry, but I think you are wrong. To overrate someone is to expect from him to do something because he's good in that activety and when he fails you are disapointed from the result. For example if you were expecting from KKK to win 3-4 tarmac rallies from 5 in one season and he fails to do it you can say that you have overrated him. But obviosly nobody from his team hasn't this kind of expections that's why he can't be overrated driver. I think that he has done what the teams are wanting from him after winning the drivers championchip 4 times.

[Nornbugger]

It was bad accident in Germany 2008 that ruined his chance for good season in ford.


3/4 of the way in to it, exciting driver I'll give you, very lucky that a camera man captured his slide so well in the GpN Evo, rallying needs Gigi Galli types, but they will never be champions

[Nornbugger]

Although i have plenty of time i prefer to spend it wisely and not on never beens and local heros...

next time someone turns it personal i report...i am fed up with everyone getting offended when i say something about a driver/boyfriend who isn't just mindless praise...

dont let people walk on you lad, stand up for yourself, but also learn that you cannot be right 100% of the time, you make some good points, but IMHO post a lot of rubbish too

[RobertS]

Sorry, but I think you are wrong. To overrate someone is to expect from him to do something because he's good in that activety and when he fails you are disapointed from the result. For example if you were expecting from KKK to win 3-4 tarmac rallies from 5 in one season and he fails to do it you can say that you have overrated him. But obviosly nobody from his team hasn't this kind of expections that's why he can't be overrated driver. I think that he has done what the teams are wanting from him after winning the drivers championchip 4 times.
I think, you are not understand me...maybe my language barrier.

Simply, I do not like, if somebody try to put KKK in to the 'big league' - in the 'height' of Loeb, Makinen(Sainz, Grönholm...).

In what way people overestimate kankkunen ?
or this is the way, how people overestimate Kankkunen

In my reading, these tryings are kind of overrates of his driving skills.
All have the similar talent, but at KKK something was missing.

There is the high step, to learn to drive fast on tarmac. This step was too high for Kankkunen, while the others could improve their skills to the highest level.
For me, he is clearly in the 2nd row, compare with the others above.
But I like KKK and absolutely respect his titles.
From the other side, he was genius, could win 4x without speed on tarmac.

In general, a 'what if' with a Kankkunen, who is quick on tarmac too, for example from the late '80s, it is a very interesting scenario. ;)
Kind of disaster for some other drivers - no work's seats for many guys, maybe no titles for some, no chance for some only-tarmac guys. Could change everything with pilot movements from team to team :D

[rage82]

When you are saying that KKK wasn't fast on tarmac that's mean that he wasn't so complex as the drivers mention above, but that's not make him overrated.

[RobertS]

When you are saying that KKK wasn't fast on tarmac that's mean that he wasn't so complex as the drivers mention above, but that's not make him overrated.
OK.


he wasn't so complex
I like it, nice phrase :)

Can we say the same about his competiton level?

Interesting, his team did not sent him to the clean tarmac rounds in all 4 title-years:

http://www.juwra.com/season_1986_points.html

http://www.juwra.com/season_1987_points.html

http://www.juwra.com/season_1991_points.html

http://www.juwra.com/season_1993_points.html

[ZequeArgentina]

I understand theproblem here is the definition of overrating.
In my case i do think Juha is one of the msot talented drivers of all time, even he never concentrated much in tarmac. So I do not rate him as one of the bests in tarmac. Anyway he was not a disaster at tarmac, he was not as fast as in any other surface, andhe spend not as much time in that surface. He, in fact, did little tarmac events in WRC (mainly Catalunya and San Remo + Montecarlo with its speciality)

In fact in all his early years he could be world champion without winning in tarmac. There was no need to run all races, and the driver/team choses who for which event.

[ZequeArgentina]

OK.


I like it, nice phrase :)

Can we say the same about his competiton level?

Interesting, his team did not sent him to the clean tarmac rounds in all 4 title-years:

juwra.com**|**Season 1986 - Championship standings (http://www.juwra.com/season_1986_points.html)

juwra.com**|**Season 1987 - Championship standings (http://www.juwra.com/season_1987_points.html)

juwra.com**|**Season 1991 - Championship standings (http://www.juwra.com/season_1991_points.html)

juwra.com**|**Season 1993 - Championship standings (http://www.juwra.com/season_1993_points.html)

You see, that reinforces what I said, at those times it was not needed to be in every rally to be world champion, so it was enough to win some rounds, and the team chooses were best for them.

[Barreis]

New WRC times are boring for me.

[T.Maanteiden kuningas]

[quote="RobertS"]

And driving ultra fast gravel or snow is so easy!

That´s why Kankkunen got wins only in easy events like Finland, Australia, NZ or in Sweden because it was easy job. I am sure that "big league" boys was giving him those wins for mercy.

[Mise]

lol...

Wake up...


OK. You can call me for too young or for a senile old-dog, all the same...


Yes for sure - one of the most talented drivers on gravel and snow only.

People are biased in connection with Kankkunen.

One of the greatest drivers? Yes.
Real team-player? Yes.
Great personality? Yes.
KKK has great style....even in smoking ;)
All of these are irrelevant in this discussion.

In any context with the other 'bigs' like Loeb, Makinen(Sainz, Grönholm...) Kannkunen - Kankkunens driving talent - is simply overrated:

Because of these guys had(have) the same speed on gravel-snow, but they were(are) in a completely different league on tarmac.

Like it or not - This is a valid factor with KKK.


Maybe more fair comparison to stay at the big Finnish champions >

Makinen became competitive on tarmac relatively early.
Grönholm had problems with the tarmac too, even in the best tarmac-car-team then, but at the Ford he had some nice results on tarmac(vs. Loeb-Sordo C4!).
Kankkunen run with the best tarmac-cars in his time. Can you show me any same progress in his driving on tarmac?

Obviously a lot of people have double standard here.

Sorry...strong words, but Kankkunens driving talent is overrated, compare with the other big champions.
And this is the only valid comparison for him, he is a great champion.

For a four time World Champion his tarmac skills were not so good and therefore he can be seen as an overated rally driver.
And then again he was a four time world champion in many varius cars and regulations.

[RobertS]

And then again he was a four time world champion in many varius cars and regulations.
He has 4 titles under such regulations in which he could avoid to start on any clean tarmac rallyes.
It means what it means:

juwra.com**|**Season 1986 - Championship standings (http://www.juwra.com/season_1986_points.html)

juwra.com**|**Season 1987 - Championship standings (http://www.juwra.com/season_1987_points.html)

juwra.com**|**Season 1991 - Championship standings (http://www.juwra.com/season_1991_points.html)

juwra.com**|**Season 1993 - Championship standings (http://www.juwra.com/season_1993_points.html)


his tarmac skills were not so good
khmmm....

[RobertS]

And driving ultra fast gravel or snow is so easy!

That´s why Kankkunen got wins only in easy events like Finland, Australia, NZ or in Sweden because it was easy job. I am sure that "big league" boys was giving him those wins for mercy.
Please read my complete post.


"big league" boys has many wins on the quoted 'easy events' + they are really competitive on tarmac.


And driving ultra fast gravel or snow is so easy!
For KKK it is easier than to drive on tarmac. No question.

[RobertS]

I can remember for an interview with Kankkunen from his years at the Subaru.
He told with big smile, he is here only, because hungry for a tarmac win, especially for Monte :D

[userwave]

New WRC times are boring for me.

bring back the early 2000's !

[Mitch555]

OK.


I like it, nice phrase :)

Can we say the same about his competiton level?

Interesting, his team did not sent him to the clean tarmac rounds in all 4 title-years:

juwra.com**|**Season 1986 - Championship standings (http://www.juwra.com/season_1986_points.html)

juwra.com**|**Season 1987 - Championship standings (http://www.juwra.com/season_1987_points.html)

juwra.com**|**Season 1991 - Championship standings (http://www.juwra.com/season_1991_points.html)

juwra.com**|**Season 1993 - Championship standings (http://www.juwra.com/season_1993_points.html)

For this period, only the best 8/9 (1986/87/93 = 8, 1991 = 9 results counted, so there was no reason to spend extra money sending Kankkunen to where he wouldn't be competitive.

1986 - made much more sense to send Bruno Saby, Timo Salonen and Michele Mouton to Corsica. Saby because he was a tarmac expert, Salonen as he was defending champion, and Mouton who was French and had tone tar rallies before. Kankkunen had only done one international tarmac event at that point, the 84 Manx in a Porsche. Peugeot ran with the team best to conquer the Lancia threat at that time.

1987 - Lancia ran Saby, Biason, Loubet. Arguably one of the strongest tarmac lineups ever assembled at the time. Alen and Kankkunen again were not required. 8 best counted, leaving them both plenty of time to get results, and to ensure Lancia did win in Corsica, alas we all know it was a historic win for the BMW M3 with Bernard Beguin behind the wheel. Italy you could say it may have been politics, to give Biason a chance of winning and to go for the title heading into the RAC. One could say it was highly likely to see a Lancia win on there home rally anyway with Biason & Alen in factory cars and Tabaton and Saby running privately.

1991 - In Corsica, Lancia Martini had faith in Loubet and Saby again, (Auriol was with Jolly Club in 1991). Kankkunen did compete in the mixed Italy and Spain, was beaten by Schwarz in Spain (who led at the end of each day). He was a lucky winner of that championship, Sainz's off in Australia swung the championship back in his favour. Sainz DNF-ing in Spain also helped him. Kankkunen only DNF-ed in Italy that year, compared to Sainz retiring 3 times.

1993 - Corsica saw Toyota enter a very French team of Auriol, Chatriot and Loubet. Delecour was a threat on that round, and Kankkunen wasn't going to be able to do the job on him, it was going to best to fight fire with fire there with an all French team. Italy saw no Toyota team at all, and Kankkunen got third in Spain.

So yes he did do some tarmac rallies, though consistently missed Corsica due to its specialist nature. Back in that time, the only drivers to win in Corsica who weren't French were Sandro Munari, Markku Alen and eventually Carlos Sainz in 1991. Reality was you either came out with a team of French and/or Italians as they best handled the conditions.

I don't think it makes Kankkunen anything less. It's just the way things came out with the rules. :)

[RobertS]

'Mitch555'

At first, thank you for your nice summary!


I don't think it makes Kankkunen anything less.
I wrote it in a comparison with Loeb,Makinen(Sainz,Grönholm...) only.
No doubts, KKK is one of the greatest gravel champion in WRC history ;)
He is not in the top 3 at me, but it is subjective.



For this period, only the best 8/9 (1986/87/93 = 8, 1991 = 9 results counted, so there was no reason to spend extra money sending Kankkunen to where he wouldn't be competitive.
The most likely scenario.


so there was no reason to spend extra money sending Kankkunen to where he wouldn't be competitive.
A good reason to 'teach' their driver on the surface, on the rallye, where he is not competitive yet. His team started on Corsica with many cars, a relatively cheap test-opportunity for KKK...
But You are right, it was not common practice then.
Although Lancia had a bit different team-tactic in 1986. They used the quick local experts too, but Biasion got many chances - Safari, NZ, Argentina - to learn on new rallyes for him. But he was an Italian in Italian team ;)
Sometimes these 'firsts' were not fruitless:
juwra.com**|**Rallies - Argentina 1986 final results (http://www.juwra.com/argentina_1986_results.html)
It is not a parallel - Biasion was better on gravel than KKK on tarmac - just some thoughts...


1986 - made much more sense to send Bruno Saby, Timo Salonen and Michele Mouton to Corsica. Saby because he was a tarmac expert, Salonen as he was defending champion, and Mouton who was French and had tone tar rallies before. Kankkunen had only done one international tarmac event at that point, the 84 Manx in a Porsche. Peugeot ran with the team best to conquer the Lancia threat at that time.

More interesting, if we see the situation pre-Corsica:
KKK was in leading position with 36points, Alen 27p Salonen only with 15p. Alen - who was not bad on tarmac - started on Corsica.


1991 - Kankkunen did compete in the mixed Italy and Spain, was beaten by Schwarz in Spain (who led at the end of each day). He was a lucky winner of that championship, Sainz's off in Australia swung the championship back in his favour. Sainz DNF-ing in Spain also helped him. Kankkunen only DNF-ed in Italy that year, compared to Sainz retiring 3 times.
Absolutely agree.
Sainz retired with engine in Kenya and his car did not start in Catalunya.
Both had 1-1 driving error retirements.


1993 - Corsica saw Toyota enter a very French team of Auriol, Chatriot and Loubet. Delecour was a threat on that round, and Kankkunen wasn't going to be able to do the job on him, it was going to best to fight fire with fire there with an all French team. Italy saw no Toyota team at all, and Kankkunen got third in Spain.
+ Sainz in 'that' Lancia in 1993. ;)


I will be very happy, if you can find time to analyze KKK & tarmac in the later years too.


I wrote earlier - I can not see any progress at KKK on tarmac, after a lot of rallyes. Probably it is not so clear.
'only' 6th, but it is a very strong 6th result:

juwra.com**|**Rallies - San Remo 1997 final results (http://www.juwra.com/sanremo_1997_results.html)

Kankkunen was very competitive with the Cossie in next year:

juwra.com**|**Season 1998 - Championship standings (http://www.juwra.com/season_1998_points.html)

If we give him some podium or near podium finish instead of 3x 0p on the tarmac rounds, KKK could run for the title on the last two rallyes.
My personal opinion - KKK was in his best form in the mid '90s, in a very tough competition. Great battles like '95 Portugal Sainz vs Kankkunen etc...

[Tomi]

I think, you are not understand me...maybe my language barrier.

Simply, I do not like, if somebody try to put KKK in to the 'big league' - in the 'height' of Loeb, Makinen(Sainz, Grönholm...).

In what league do you put a driver who has won as many world championships like Kankkunen has, after all thats why the drivers are hired, to win championships, one time you can win by luck, but for sure not many times.
Also in what league do you put the one time champions, vatanen, burns mcrae, solberg, just of curiosity and to get a good laugh.

[RobertS]

In what league do you put a driver who has won as many world championships like Kankkunen has, after all thats why the drivers are hired, to win championships, one time you can win by luck, but for sure not many times.
???
Loeb, Makinen(Sainz,Grönholm...) have-had the same speed on gravel-snow like KKK. All multiple champions.
But KKK was well behind the above mentioned drivers on tarmac. He was not so complex ;)
It is fact.
But You can try to forget it if you are biased in connection with KKK.


Also in what league do you put the one time champions, vatanen, burns mcrae, solberg, just of curiosity and to get a good laugh.
Here I called McRae for lucky champion in 1995:

http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/140344-prodrive-mini-wrc-51.html#post972030

I did not wrote anyithing about the others.

[tfp]

???
Loeb, Makinen(Sainz,Grönholm...) have-had the same speed on gravel-snow like KKK. All multiple champions.
But KKK was well behind the above mentioned drivers on tarmac. He was not so complex ;)
It is fact.
But You can try to forget it if you are biased in connection with KKK.


Here I called McRae for lucky champion in 1995:

http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/140344-prodrive-mini-wrc-51.html#post972030

I did not wrote anyithing about the others.

So you think Mcrae's title was down to luck and Kankkunnen was over rated?
Are we watching the same sport here??

[RobertS]

So you think Mcrae's title was down to luck
He has 1 title 'only'.
His main rival did not start in NZ and has +1 engine-retirement. You can see it with bias or with objectivity >

juwra.com**|**Season 1995 - Championship standings (http://www.juwra.com/season_1995_points.html)

Some people think so ;) >

one time you can win by luck, but for sure not many times.
Maybe the best definitions of McRae >

He was a great driver (great enough to become champion) but not something really special like Loeb, even Makinen and Gronholm.


He was a brilliant driver, and the most popular worldwide mainly due to his computer game, but he there was never a time when no one could touch him. Since i've watched rallying Makinen had a period...well most of the late 90's where he was untouchable, Gronholm was in 2000 and especially 2002, Loeb was from 2005 until this season. Colin always tried hard, maybe too hard, and thats not because he wanted to entertain a few fans but because his competition was usually better.



and Kankkunnen was over rated?
A lot of comments above...
I have basic English, but I am sure you understand perfectly what I wrote about KKK...


Are we watching the same sport here??
Kankkunen and McRae are very popular champions. Worthily.
There are a lot of bias around them...

[Josti]

Kankkunen was more than descent on tarmac, it's just that back then it were specialists events, with quite some locals always joining the fray. Of course, by the time of his twilight years, he paid the price for not having developed himself more on that surface. His Monte record is quite good though, but different character obviously.

[RobertS]

Kankkunen was more than descent on tarmac, His Monte record is quite good though,
Clearly better than Grönholm's stats in MC.
Interestingly KKK's best Monte-serie was in his last years: '98 2nd, '99 2nd 2000 3rd
Progress(?)


not having developed himself more on that surface.
I am sure KKK had a lot of tarmac tests from 1986 Monte, Portugal, from 1988 Corsica, San-Remo etc.
He had the best opportunities in good tarmac-cars with tarmac-experts in his team:

Lancia - Auriol, Biasion, Saby
Toyota - Auriol
Ford - Sainz, Thiry...

[darkstar]

most overrated at the moment seems to be campana. why does he get the money from ffsa? what has he ever shown except some good speed at corsica witch was his homeevent? and now with the mini he´s just very slow, same in irc with the peugeot.

[dimviii]

most overrated at the moment seems to be campana. why does he get the money from ffsa? what has he ever shown except some good speed at corsica witch was his homeevent? and now with the mini he´s just very slow, same in irc with the peugeot.

can t say that you are wrong mate.

[Juha_Koo]

most overrated at the moment seems to be campana. why does he get the money from ffsa? what has he ever shown except some good speed at corsica witch was his homeevent? and now with the mini he´s just very slow, same in irc with the peugeot.

Yeah, it's an interesting question... I was very impressed with him in IRC Corsica but after that it's been, well, pretty terrible. In Germany he was 3,4 seconds slower per km, in France 1,5 secs with Mini, proven to be a good tarmac car. I hope he could get a good S2000 program and gain international experience. I'm sure it would help.

[tfp]

can t say that you are wrong mate.

:up: +2

[Sladden]

???
Loeb, Makinen(Sainz,Grönholm...) have-had the same speed on gravel-snow like KKK. All multiple champions.
But KKK was well behind the above mentioned drivers on tarmac. He was not so complex ;)
It is fact.
But You can try to forget it if you are biased in connection with KKK.


Here I called McRae for lucky champion in 1995:

http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/140344-prodrive-mini-wrc-51.html#post972030

I did not wrote anyithing about the others.
Statistically what you say is true. But if you look a bit closer on circumstances in different seasons you get different impressions.
Like this:
Mäkinen took 4 titles...but 2 of them could easily have been anothers.
Colin took 1 title but was very close on 3 others (97,98,01).

With a little bit of luck..the tables could have turned 4 to 1 in Mcraes favour. Reliability issues was perhaps a greater cause than driver incapability...just saying.

[clem126]

most overrated at the moment seems to be campana. why does he get the money from ffsa? what has he ever shown except some good speed at corsica witch was his homeevent? and now with the mini he´s just very slow, same in irc with the peugeot.

I dont know how much ffsa give him to be in the Mini but Drive-pro's boss is also from Corsica, that why Campana has been chosen over other french driver that deserve that seat at least as much as he does!

[RobertS]

Statistically what you say is true.
I think 1995 is special because of the mountain-bike accident of Sainz - after he could not start in NZ

juwra.com**|**Season 1995 - Championship standings (http://www.juwra.com/season_1995_points.html)

It was the clear turning point in mid season, pre NZ:

Sainz - 50p
McRae - 20p.

If Sainz start in NZ, he is the absolute team no.1. in the second half of the season, even with a bad result in NZ(maybe a +1 with a healthy engine in AUS) - it means no chance for McRae
If Sainz the World Champion in 1995, he did not go to Ford in 1996 etc...
(here we have a lot of nice 'what if' scenarios)



Mäkinen took 4 titles...but 2 of them could easily have been anothers.
I am sure, a lot of fans have their 'own WRC stats' on which Carlos Sainz is the Champion in 1998 with that engine-fire at the end of the last ss. in GB.
He is the most unlucky champion at me...



Colin took 1 title but was very close on 3 others (97,98,01).
1997 >

juwra.com**|**Season 1997 - Championship standings (http://www.juwra.com/season_1997_points.html)

McRae had 5x retirements - 2x his own fault(MC ice-recce fault?) and 3x technical
Makinen had 4x retirements - 1x his own, 1x more own maybe(radiator in ID) 1x hit cow on Corsica(Tommi was very competitive on tarmac already in that year) 1x front-diff
Sainz 5x retirements - 5x technical KO!!! +1x 0p in Spain which was technical too

So, at me in 1997 Sainz was the most unlucky(again ;) ), who could win also with a bit more reliable Ford.
But you are right, McRae was very near.

1998 >

juwra.com**|**Season 1998 - Championship standings (http://www.juwra.com/season_1998_points.html)

This year I can not agree, because Makinen had 6x! retirements in that season, good chance for everybody else...
Sainz was really unlucky in this season again, but the real speed was at Makinen.
Probably you seen McRae's 5x retirements only, in which 4x were technical.

2001 >

juwra.com**|**Season 2001 - Championship standings (http://www.juwra.com/season_2001_points.html)

Very interesting season, with a lot of 0p. at everybody.

Burns - 4x retirements (+2x 0p.)
McRae - 5x (+3x 0p.)
Makinen - 6x (+1x 0p.)
Grönholm - 8x (+1x 0p.)

At me the speed was at Makinen in this year also. But this is subjective.

[Sladden]

1998 >

juwra.com**|**Season 1998 - Championship standings (http://www.juwra.com/season_1998_points.html)

This year I can not agree, because Makinen had 6x! retirements in that season, good chance for everybody else...
Sainz was really unlucky in this season again, but the real speed was at Makinen.
Probably you seen McRae's 5x retirements only, in which 4x were technical.

I just watched that season today. Many had problems sure...but no one was as fast as Colin over the year with 21 ss wins over Mäkinen. But the thing was how poor Subaru concistency were. Australia and GB had Colins name written on them...in the lead on both but engine exipred. Pirellis not working on snow and dry tarmac...Mitsubishi and Michelin was always more concistent.

[Coach 2]

All have great sympathy with Carlos for the season ending in 1998, but can anyone remember why Tommi did not complete the Rally GB this year?

[RobertS]

All have great sympathy with Carlos for the season ending in 1998, but can anyone remember why Tommi did not complete the Rally GB this year?
I think that season was gone for Carlos on tarmac(see Spain and Corsica) >

http://www.juwra.com/season_1998_points.html

The Corolla was very competitive on tarmac, even vs kitcars >

http://www.juwra.com/catalunya_1998_results.html

but Sainz had badluck(again). In Spain a puncture, in Corsica electrical(?) 2x 0p.
AFAIK a lucky win for McRae in Corsica(rain + Pirelli)

http://www.juwra.com/corsica_1998_results.html

[Coach 2]

What I meant by the question Roberts, is that everyone seems to remember that Carlos had engine problems 400 m before the finish on the last SS, and lost the World Cup title for this reason.

But there does not appear that anyone remembers why Mækinen had to retire in the same race.

[RobertS]

What I meant by the question Roberts, is that everyone seems to remember that Carlos had engine problems 400 m before the finish on the last SS, and lost the World Cup title for this reason.

But there does not appear that anyone remembers why Mækinen had to retire in the same race.
With other words >




1998 >

juwra.com**|**Season 1998 - Championship standings (http://www.juwra.com/season_1998_points.html)

This year I can not agree, because Makinen had 6x! retirements in that season, good chance for everybody else...
Sainz was really unlucky in this season again, but the real speed was at Makinen.

Please read all of my posts, before quote for details...
We see it very same.


But there does not appear that anyone remembers why Mækinen had to retire in the same race.
I can not remember for the details.
Was somebody there - where Makinen hit the concrete-bloc - to warn Sainz, to slow down?

[Coach 2]

This question was not intended specifically for you Roberts.

But what I wanted out of the question, is to refresh the people's Memory, or the lack of it.
In that year had some historic cars driven in the SS1 before Mækinen came as start number one.
One of these cars had failure of either engine or gearbox inside the stage, and had released large amounts of oil on the asphalt. Mækinen hit this oil, and destroyed a rear wheel. The rest of the participants were warned about this and no one else had an accident.
On the way to the next service, Mækinen was stopped by police and had to withdraw from the rally.

[Nornbugger]

you are right in what you say Coach, Tommi was taken out through no fault of his own, it must have been a long rally for him waiting in the expectation of the title going from him.

http://gb.fotolibra.com/images/previews/108837-tommi-makinen-network-q-rally-1998.jpeg

a bit of topic, but why had Sainz no rear spoiler on that last stage?

http://gb.fotolibra.com/images/previews/122136-carlos-sainz-network-q-rally-1998.jpeg

[RobertS]

The rest of the participants were warned about this and no one else had an accident.

Sainz onboard - at 04:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5vz1DKNCNs

that yellow jacket-guy

I think all of these are 'what if's' or hard statements:

- Without the warning from the yellow-jacket guy Sainz hit that concrete too.
or
- all the same, without that 'warning' Sainz go through in that corner without problem
or
- Makinen was a bit too fast there + the oil on the road

We will never know....

Were there any warnings at the start of that stage for Sainz, which was not for Makinen :confused: