11-5: The 2012 schedule

[bugeyedgomer]

AUTO RACING - INDYCAR: 2012 Schedule Revealed (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-2012-schedule-revealed)

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Bernard had discussed having a doubleheader at Iowa on Saturday night and Sunday afternoon.

“The promoters at Iowa loved the idea but our car owners didn't like it,"' he explained. “I don't understand it, it would have saved the teams a lot of money.''

Geez.

[jimispeed]

If they could get one more oval for next year, that would be perfect IMO......

[jwhite9185]

Ditch China and replace with Homestead/Phoenix/Michigan/Loudon/Chicago/Kentucky....

[Chris R]

Well, at least it appears to be the "real deal" instead of putting races on the schedule that are not going to happen....

It does appear as though Indycar needs to grow some relative to dealing with the car owners - While I am not sure a two day double header makes much sense, if Randy wants to give it a try he should - the owners might have had a valid point about the aero kits - but this is just nit-picking and posturing for power.....

[00steven]

Not a bad schedule but I would like a couple more ovals.

[DBell]

Ditch China and replace with Homestead/Phoenix/Michigan/Loudon/Chicago/Kentucky....

Did you read the article in the opening post? Let's go by those tracks one by one.

Homestead: Year after year, no crowds showed up at that track. I don't understand the thought process that if we go back, the crowds will come this time. Go back and it will be in front of rows of aluminum again.

Michigan: Another track that was once great for open wheel, the crowds stopped showing up. ISC track, so they are not going to pay and promote the race. It will need a sponsor to have a chance at coming back.

London, Kentucky, and Chicago. All need a title sponsor to come back. Crowds have ranged recently from mediocre to lousy. Tough sell.

Saved Phoenix for last as it was my home track. I grew up there and attended at least 12 or more IndyCar races there during the CART years. The last good crowd there for an IndyCar race was '95. After the split, the crowds left in droves and was a ghost town for the IRL. It's now NASCAR country and, from what I've heard, they have changed the track for next year to better suit NASCAR. If IndyCar goes there, I think they will get the same kind of turnout that Milwaukee and Loudon got. Or what Fontana will get next year. The spring date that CART used to use is for Nascar now. And they also have a fall date. Summer dates are out, so when you add it all up, this track is a loser for IndyCar. Or IndyCar is a loser for this track, depends on how you look at it.

[heliocastroneves#3]

Worst schedule I've ever seen. Bring back Charlotte, Chicagoland and Kentucky and it's perfect.

[jwhite9185]

Did you read the article in the opening post? Let's go by those tracks one by one.

Homestead: Year after year, no crowds showed up at that track. I don't understand the thought process that if we go back, the crowds will come this time. Go back and it will be in front of rows of aluminum again.

Michigan: Another track that was once great for open wheel, the crowds stopped showing up. ISC track, so they are not going to pay and promote the race. It will need a sponsor to have a chance at coming back.

London, Kentucky, and Chicago. All need a title sponsor to come back. Crowds have ranged recently from mediocre to lousy. Tough sell.

Saved Phoenix for last as it was my home track. I grew up there and attended at least 12 or more IndyCar races there during the CART years. The last good crowd there for an IndyCar race was '95. After the split, the crowds left in droves and was a ghost town for the IRL. It's now NASCAR country and, from what I've heard, they have changed the track for next year to better suit NASCAR. If IndyCar goes there, I think they will get the same kind of turnout that Milwaukee and Loudon got. Or what Fontana will get next year. The spring date that CART used to use is for Nascar now. And they also have a fall date. Summer dates are out, so when you add it all up, this track is a loser for IndyCar. Or IndyCar is a loser for this track, depends on how you look at it.

Yeah i know it won't happen - should of stated, that it was just personal choice.

[DanicaFan]

This is the first year since I started following Indycar where Im not even the least bit excited or anticipating the next year's schedule. Way too many road courses, not enough ovals, and lastly but no Danica in the series.

[heliocastroneves#3]

I agree with you DanicaFan, the series was actually made for ovals.... But it became CCWS. Shame.... But if this is the only way IndyCar can survive, then I've nothing against it. I like road courses, but please keep the balance between ovals and road courses. Even this year the schedule was already out of balance, don't make it even worser. Last year we had the perfect schedule imho.

[anthonyvop]

Tony George’s original Indy Racing League featured all ovals from 1996-2004 before beginning to add street and road courses but ovals have steadily become endangered species.

So who cares if the fans have spoken with the free market? We want more ovals!!!!

[SarahFan]

Am I the only one who sees a few big "if's" on the 2012 schedule?

[heliocastroneves#3]

Well, actually No. If I really look at it without thinking about Bernard's words I like this schedule as well. But don't use the word "Balanced schedule" ever again Randy! Too many ovals is out of balance, but this is exactly vice-versa.

[SarahFan]

Shu180..

I wasn't asking if you liked the schedule.... I'm asking if you ( or anyone else) sees more than one race on that schedule that might not happen in 2012

[DBell]

Just looking at it, I'd have to say that China is iffy. It hasn't been finalized from what I gather. Vegas is being promoted by IndyCar and probably depends on how it does this year. Given the crowd history of Vegas and the epic fail of the 5 million dollar gimmick, I wouldn't put money on this race being back. Fontana's future in 2013 is probably iffy as I don't think they will get much of a crowd next year.

[SarahFan]

Not to mention to Toronto has been a ghost town and been govt subsidized

And I expect Baltimore will be run ....'but it was reported that without a title sponsor it wouldn't be back in 2012

Belle isle has come and gone how many times now?


And I agree with Dbel 100%.... China is iffy and Vegas is shaping up to be a huge financial blOodbath.....

[heliocastroneves#3]

Shu180..

I wasn't asking if you liked the schedule.... I'm asking if you ( or anyone else) sees more than one race on that schedule that might not happen in 2012

And THIS is just because I'm Dutch. My English is good, but not perfect. :D

I think Detroit and China won't happen, and that Kentucky will be added on the schedule.

[NY2IA]

Come on....frustrating looking at this schedule. Where is Road America? Watkins Glen? Cleveland? How about asking the drivers where they like to race?

[Nikki Katz]

I think there's been quite a lot of good news stories this season - with all of the arbitrary penalties aside (and the tracks with visible seats looking quite empty, especially last night) - car count is well up on what I expected, and most of the additional cars aren't just Duno-esque drivers, they're actual good drivers trying to get a full time shot in the series. But I can't really take this schedule as anything other than bad news. It's too short and, even for someone who prefers road courses in most cases, there aren't enough ovals. I'm just wondering what the overall finances of IndyCar are like for them to announce a season like this. Ignoring F1 and its feeders, all open-wheel series have had a bad time in the last few years...

[numanoid]

Wow, very disappointing. Danica definitely made the right choice.

[Chris R]

I think there's been quite a lot of good news stories this season - with all of the arbitrary penalties aside (and the tracks with visible seats looking quite empty, especially last night) - car count is well up on what I expected, and most of the additional cars aren't just Duno-esque drivers, they're actual good drivers trying to get a full time shot in the series. But I can't really take this schedule as anything other than bad news. It's too short and, even for someone who prefers road courses in most cases, there aren't enough ovals. I'm just wondering what the overall finances of IndyCar are like for them to announce a season like this. Ignoring F1 and its feeders, all open-wheel series have had a bad time in the last few years...

I suspect Indycar is like many other businesses - alarmingly close to the edge with little to no cash reserves to fall back on..... On the bright side, that situation tends to sharpen ones management skills. On the minus side, it is nearly impossible to move forward without a good amount of plain old good luck (or perhaps more importantly, without BAD luck).....

[booger]

From what I've heard, many of the tracks, particularly ovals are having a hard time finding sponsors to pay the sanctioning fee. Street races have a better chance of finding presenting sponsors just because they are right in the middle of urban areas and populations that want to party no matter who's racing. Road courses are in the same boat. I think RA told IC to take a hike unless they made the sanctioning fee more palatable (and RA is scrambling to find a sponsor for the NASCAR Nationwide too after Bucyrus sold to CAT). Randy has even been mumbling about making the IC company into it's own promoter like he did with PBR. With that model he never had to argue with promoters, because he WAS the promoter. It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

[SarahFan]

Booger is right on IMO....

Which is why Vegas scares the he'll put me... If they pull a small crowd 2012 might be a very very rOugh year

[anthonyvop]

Booger is right on IMO....

Which is why Vegas scares the he'll put me... If they pull a small crowd 2012 might be a very very rOugh year

The people at the Vegas track didn't have a problem getting a sponsor to pay the sanctioning fee....because they didn't have to pay any. Vegas is a Track rental with the ICS in charge of promotion and marketing.

[Chamoo]

Please keep in mind this schedule is not confirmed. This is speculation based on RM's conversations with Randy Bernard. While most of it is accurate, the 2012 schedule will be released over the Las Vegas weekend.

[heliocastroneves#3]

I expect Kentucky and New Hampshire to stay honestly. If that happens, then I like the schedule.

[call_me_andrew]

Worst schedule I've ever seen. Bring back Charlotte, Chicagoland and Kentucky and it's perfect.

Charlotte is not happening. Not after those spectators died.

Atlanta and Rockingham, NC would be more likely.

[Phoenixent]

Charlotte is not happening. Not after those spectators died.

I agree with you but why don't the say the same about Michigan? Michigan had races after the three fans were killed in 1998.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

The awaited schedule announcement didn't happen yesterday. Some say it is because Chicagoland is back in play, and Tsingtao is only 90 percent. Kentucky and New Hampshire announced their 2012 schedules yesterday, and both tracks explicitily stated no IndyCar in 2012. The following 15 dates have been confirmed by press releases, news conferences or the track's website.

Mar 25 Streets of St. Petersburg
Apr 1 Barber Motorsports Park
Apr 15 Streets of Long Beach
Apr 29 Streets of Sao Paulo
May 27 Indianapolis Motor Speedway
Jun 3 The Raceway on Belle Isle
Jun 9 Texas Motor Speedway
Jun 23 Iowa Speedway
Jul 8 Streets of Toronto
Jul 22 Edmonton City Centre Airport
Aug 5 Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course
Aug 26 Infineon Raceway
Sep 2 Streets of Baltimore
Sep 15 Auto Club Speedway
Oct 14 Las Vegas Motor Speedway

[NY2IA]

Any news on the 2012 schedule?

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Any news on the 2012 schedule?

There are doubts about Baltimore (financial issues) and Las Vegas (safety issues). Randy Bernard is thought to be working on a Vegas street race to replace LVMS. He might also have reached out to ISC for more ovals. No word on China. The schedule is in a flux...

[SarahFan]

Indycool once told me series couldn't survive if it hadn't solidified it's schedule by the end of august ... Teams could prepare a budget for the upcoming season.... And that corporate dollars were no longer available for sponsorship at this late date

He wad right .... Twice

[bugeyedgomer]

15 races with 2 ovals and one rectangle.
CART had 17 races 5 ovals and 1 rectangle when someone decided to fix everything
texas isn't signed and probably won't be.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Schedule update 10/11/11

Mar 25 Streets of St. Petersburg Honda Grand Prix of St. Petersburg - Honda Grand Prix of St. Petersburg (http://www.gpstpete.com/)
Apr 1 Barber Motorsports Park Home | Barber Motorsports Park (http://barbermotorsports.com/indy/index.php)
Apr 15 Streets of Long Beach Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach, Street Racing, Concerts, Festival, Family Entertainment (http://www.gplb.com/)
Apr 29 Streets of Sao Paulo http://www.band.com.br/esporte/velocidade/formula-indy/noticia/?id=100000458386
May 27 Indianapolis Motor Speedway Indianapolis 500 - Indianapolis Motor Speedway (http://www.indianapolismotorspeedway.com/indy500/)
Jun 3 The Raceway on Belle Isle Detroit Belle Isle Grand Prix (http://www.detroitgp.com/)
Jun 9 Texas Motor Speedway* NASCAR and IndyCar Season Tickets (http://www.texasmotorspeedway.com/Tickets/Season-Tickets/Season-Tickets.aspx)
Jun 23 Iowa Speedway Iowa Speedway: IZOD IndyCar Series: Iowa Entertainment, Events, Racing, Concerts (http://www.iowaspeedway.com/aspx/Events/EventDetail.aspx?id=224)
Jul 8 Streets of Toronto Honda Indy Toronto - Honda Indy Toronto (http://www.hondaindytoronto.com/)
Jul 22 Edmonton City Centre Airport Edmonton Indy (http://www.edmontonindy.com/tickets.html)
Aug 5 Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course**
Aug 19 Streets of Qingdao Ni hao, Qingdao - IndyCar.com (http://www.indycar.com/news/show/55-izod-indycar-series/50972-ni-hao-qingdao/)
Aug 26 Infineon Raceway* Indy® Grand Prix of Sonoma | Tickets | Infineon Raceway (http://www.infineonraceway.com/tickets/indy_grand_prix_of_sonoma_48024/)
Sep 2 Streets of Baltimore*** Baltimore Grand Prix (http://baltimoregrandprix.com/index.cfm)
Sep 15 Auto Club Speedway INDYCAR Weekend - Auto Club Speedway (http://www.autoclubspeedway.com/Tickets-Events/Events/INDYCAR-Weekend.aspx)
Oct 14 Las Vegas Motor Speedway**** 2012 Truck IndyCar Wknd | Speedway | Las Vegas Motor Speedway (http://www.lvms.com/tickets/2012_truck_indycar_wknd/)

* Tickets on sale, no official confirmation on 2012 sanctioning agreement.
** ALMS date announced, no official confirmation on IndyCar agreement.
*** Pending financial issues.
**** Agreement through 2014, pending safety investigation.

[ICWS]

Aug 5 Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course**
Aug 19 Streets of Qingdao Ni hao, Qingdao - IndyCar.com (http://www.indycar.com/news/show/55-izod-indycar-series/50972-ni-hao-qingdao/)
Aug 26 Infineon Raceway* Indy® Grand Prix of Sonoma | Tickets | Infineon Raceway (http://www.infineonraceway.com/tickets/indy_grand_prix_of_sonoma_48024/)
Sep 2 Streets of Baltimore*** Baltimore Grand Prix (http://baltimoregrandprix.com/index.cfm)
Sep 15 Auto Club Speedway INDYCAR Weekend - Auto Club Speedway (http://www.autoclubspeedway.com/Tickets-Events/Events/INDYCAR-Weekend.aspx)
Oct 14 Las Vegas Motor Speedway**** 2012 Truck IndyCar Wknd | Speedway | Las Vegas Motor Speedway (http://www.lvms.com/tickets/2012_truck_indycar_wknd/)

It's going to be hell for the teams to go from China to Sonoma and to Baltimore in three consecutive weeks. I don't understand why they don't have the China race scheduled for September 30th. I figure that they're leaving that gap from Fontana to Las Vegas open for a "rent-a-track" race (Kentucky, Phoenix, etc.) to be placed there, but they could've easily put the China race in the September 30th slot and put the "rent-a-track" race in August before Sonoma (Kentucky/Phoenix could be a night race).

[Spiderman]

It's going to be hell for the teams to go from China to Sonoma and to Baltimore in three consecutive weeks. I don't understand why they don't have the China race scheduled for September 30th. I figure that they're leaving that gap from Fontana to Las Vegas open for a "rent-a-track" race (Kentucky, Phoenix, etc.) to be placed there, but they could've easily put the China race in the September 30th slot and put the "rent-a-track" race in August before Sonoma (Kentucky/Phoenix could be a night race).

Maybe it's because f1 is in Asia the same weekend (Singapore) and they don't want to be in f1's shadow when they race there!

[Dr. Krogshöj]

It's going to be hell for the teams to go from China to Sonoma and to Baltimore in three consecutive weeks. I don't understand why they don't have the China race scheduled for September 30th. I figure that they're leaving that gap from Fontana to Las Vegas open for a "rent-a-track" race (Kentucky, Phoenix, etc.) to be placed there, but they could've easily put the China race in the September 30th slot and put the "rent-a-track" race in August before Sonoma (Kentucky/Phoenix could be a night race).

CART used to schedule West Coast races back-to-back with Pacific Rim dates. Long Beach used to follow Motegi while Fontana used to be on the weekend after Surfers Paradise. I guess they'll fly from China straight to California, where the trucks will be waiting for them, and then they'll cross the country to Baltimore, if that event happens.

[ICWS]

Maybe it's because f1 is in Asia the same weekend (Singapore) and they don't want to be in f1's shadow when they race there!

Formula 1 (http://www.formula1.com/races/calendar_preview.html)

The 2012 F1 calendar as of now has the Singapore Grand Prix scheduled for September 23rd. I was suggesting that IndyCar have their China race on September 30th. I understand what you're saying in regards to IndyCar not wanting to be in F1's shadow when they make their trip to China, but I think it makes a lot more sense logistically for IndyCar to have the China race on September 30th rather than August 19th, a week before going to Sonoma and then going to Baltimore the week after. For the August to October stretch of the calendar, I would recommend for IndyCar to do this:

August 5 - Lexington, Ohio
August 19 - Sonoma, California
September 2 - Baltimore, Maryland
September 15 - Fontana, California
September 30 - Qingdao, China
October 14 - Las Vegas, Nevada

[Lousada]

Maybe they don't expect Baltimore to make it in 2012?

[ykiki]

Formula 1 (http://www.formula1.com/races/calendar_preview.html)

For the August to October stretch of the calendar, I would recommend for IndyCar to do this:

August 5 - Lexington, Ohio
August 19 - Sonoma, California
September 2 - Baltimore, Maryland
September 15 - Fontana, California
September 30 - Qingdao, China
October 14 - Las Vegas, Nevada

I know you've got a couple of weeks in between each race, but criss-crossing the continent from Ohio, to California, then all the way across to Maryland, only to return to California once more?

[bugeyedgomer]

If I'd known sooner that the IRL was going to be protecting the American open wheel street race tradition, I would have become a fan sooner too.


http://www.racer.com/dixon-supports-las-vegas-street-race-idea/article/216801/

[bugeyedgomer]

will you support an early May road parade at IMS? 16th & Georgetown wants to know

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-millers-mailbag-1116

[heliocastroneves#3]

NO! We already have enough road races.. I started to like the 2012 schedule, but there are already enough road races on the schedule for next year. They should've done this a few years ago, when there weren't that much road courses on the schedule.

[Chris R]

The only way a road race at Indy makes sense is as a historic race of old Indycars on the road course sometime during May (opening day??) (just because it lets more people get a closer look at the cars at some sort of speed) - THAT I could support - not the current cars- that is foolish dilution of a tradition at the very best.....

[SarahFan]

Indy was diluted the day tony announced NASCAR was coming to town...


Indycars on the road coarse is coming.... If no in 2012 than 2013 ... Mark my words

[garyshell]

Indy was diluted the day tony announced NASCAR was coming to town...

Did you feel that way when F1 was there or the motorcycle races? While I understand the sentiment, I also realize that it is ridiculous to have a huge facility like that with only one event per year. The upkeep on the place must be huge and to expect only one event to pay for that guarantees an escalating ticket price for that event. Personally, I welcomed the idea of other series, if for no other reason, than to offset the ticket prices.

Gary

[Chris R]

Indy was diluted the day tony announced NASCAR was coming to town...


Indycars on the road coarse is coming.... If no in 2012 than 2013 ... Mark my words

I think you are probably right. The only other thing that MAY make sense is to make it a special invitational/ non-points race - a'la the Vegas attempt just to make it different/interesting....

[SarahFan]

Absolutely I did Gary...... IMS is the holy grail of auto racing...the day Tony let NASCAR in was the day he legitimized it....


Did you feel that way when F1 was there or the motorcycle races? While I understand the sentiment, I also realize that it is ridiculous to have a huge facility like that with only one event per year. The upkeep on the place must be huge and to expect only one event to pay for that guarantees an escalating ticket price for that event. Personally, I welcomed the idea of other series, if for no other reason, than to offset the ticket prices.

Gary

[bugeyedgomer]

F1 and motorcycles have a history with the Speedway. Just not a road course history.

So when does NASCAR start running the road course?

[garyshell]

F1 and motorcycles have a history with the Speedway. Just not a road course history.

Not a road course history? When did F1 and motorcycles run an oval race?

Gary

[Chris R]

Not a road course history? When did F1 and motorcycles run an oval race?

Gary
Motorcycles 1909-1910
F-1 throughout the 1950's (technically - not "for real" - the 500 was a round of the world championship)

[jimispeed]

Wish Indycar could run here! I loved this track!!

2007 Champ Car Mont-Tremblant {1/7} - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L9hnlriDoI&NR=1)

[booger]

Wasn't the Lotus an F-1 car at Indy? I believe it was the first rear engine car to make the race. But those were the days when you could "run what you brung" instead of the de-nutted bunch of crap wagons that race there now every year.

[bugeyedgomer]

The great American racer Wilbur Shaw used to order all of his cars from Europe,,,so they would be F1

[Blancvino]

Jack Brabham drove a Cooper/Climax in 1961. I believe Lotus came in 1963 or 1964.

Brabham's Cooper Climax shocks at Indy 500, 1961 (http://www.motorsportretro.com/2011/03/jack-brabham-indy-500/)

[Chris R]

The great American racer Wilbur Shaw used to order all of his cars from Europe,,,so they would be F1

He got one car from Europe - actually Mike Boyle(Umbrella Mike) got one car from Europe - the Maserati - that car had a long career.... Prior to that Shaw actually built his own car (the one he won with in 1937) and used American iron. He retired after a wire wheel failed going for his third straight win in the Maser....

That being said - I have no problem with bringing on the best stuff you can find anywhere - it is the American way.....

[SarahFan]

The 2012 schedule was released yesterday Nd there are more races on foreign soil than ovals

[DBell]

AUTO RACING - INDYCAR: 14 Calendar Dates Confirmed So Far For 2012 (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-14-calendar-dates-confirmed-so-far-for-2012/)

A schedule with 14 confirmed dates and 2 more maybe's, Texas and Vegas. One of the confirmed dates is Baltimore and we know that is also up in the air.

[SarahFan]

Texas and Vegas are huge maybes....

Sure Briton and Eddie are saying come on back....

But the thing is the league took a bath at Vegas ... Place was empty...

And Texas has gone from two races at around 90k to one with 60k..... So you gotta wonder about a sanctioning fee reduction....

Mark my word those two are more about finances than safety

[SarahFan]

Not to mention Fontana won't be around in 2013....not that it's not an awesome oval in a huge market .... Just aowr has already failed there twice and to quote N/h in this economic climate promotion is likely to be minimal

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Texas and Vegas are huge maybes....

Sure Briton and Eddie are saying come on back....

But the thing is the league took a bath at Vegas ... Place was empty...

And Texas has gone from two races at around 90k to one with 60k..... So you gotta wonder about a sanctioning fee reduction....

Mark my word those two are more about finances than safety

Do we have an accurate attendance figure for Vegas? Somewhere I read it was 24,000. New Hampshire was considered a failure with 28,000 and a lot less promotion...

[SarahFan]

18k

[jimispeed]

Anyone understand his language? Sounds like maybe finale in Fort Lauderdale?!!

Tony Kanaan: "Final da Fórmula Indy 2012 poderá ser nas ruas de Fort Lauderdale na Flórida!" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pPxhotHAkY)

Wish I knew what they were saying!

[anthonyvop]

Anyone understand his language? Sounds like maybe finale in Fort Lauderdale?!!

Tony Kanaan: "Final da Fórmula Indy 2012 poderá ser nas ruas de Fort Lauderdale na Flórida!" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pPxhotHAkY)

Wish I knew what they were saying!

Shhhhhhh........Its a secret.

[heliocastroneves#3]

Please keep the finale on an oval....

[bugeyedgomer]

from one of the sites that uses this forum


throw in up to 15,000 for Vegas. Despite giving away for free, upwards of 80,000 tickets to the event, if 15,000 showed up, that was a lot. 15,000 in a stadium that holds 132,000. It looked bad for IndyCar for what was supposed to be their 'grand' finale.

and there is no LVMS for 2012,,,the remainder of the schedule remains in a kankedort

[anthonyvop]

INDYCAR announced today that the IZOD IndyCar Series will not race at Las Vegas Motor Speedway in 2012.

The series was scheduled to close its 2012 season at the speedway on Oct. 14, but INDYCAR and speedway officials said considerable testing with the new car is needed prior to returning to the facility.

"We feel we need to give our technical team ample time to conduct thorough testing at Las Vegas Motor Speedway, once we complete our ongoing investigation into the 15-car accident during the Oct. 16 race at the track," INDYCAR CEO Randy Bernard said.

The 2012 IZOD IndyCar Series season opens March 25 with the Honda Grand Prix of St. Petersburg. The complete schedule will be announced in the coming weeks.

Anybody believe that?


BTW Do guys at Indy know that this is still a link on their Website?

http://mgmresorts.com/indy/images/izod-indycar_02.jpg
http://mgmresorts.com/indy/images/izod-indycar_03.jpg
http://mgmresorts.com/indy/images/izod-indycar_04.jpg
http://mgmresorts.com/indy/images/izod-indycar_05.jpg
http://mgmresorts.com/indy/images/izod-indycar_06.jpg

[00steven]

Glad Vegas is off.

[SoCalPVguy]

Please keep the finale on an oval....

Why ?

[Dr. Krogshöj]

To quote a member from TF, saying it make sense to do the three day street festivals because of the money they raise and the crowds they attract is like saying "It makes sense for someone to use heroin because it helps make them feel better." In reality, it just highlights the fact that you cannot attract spectators to actual racetracks.

It's not just about ovals: the fact that next year's schedule only contains three ovals and three road courses shows how unattractive the product is. Filling the schedule up with street circuits is like admitting defeat: the product cannot pull people to racetracks so I have to bring the racing to the urban cores so people will come. Most of whom aren't really race fans, just party fans, who will not watch the next race on the TV.

One has to look at the demise of Champ Car to see how slippery this slope is. Champ Car didn't take this route willingly, it's what happened to it. It's what happening to IndyCar as well. It's not like the powers that be like street races, street races are just the last refuge for a dying series to appear alive for a couple of years.

[heliocastroneves#3]

Why ?

We already have enough road/street courses.

[DanicaFan]

To quote a member from TF, saying it make sense to do the three day street festivals because of the money they raise and the crowds they attract is like saying "It makes sense for someone to use heroin because it helps make them feel better." In reality, it just highlights the fact that you cannot attract spectators to actual racetracks.

It's not just about ovals: the fact that next year's schedule only contains three ovals and three road courses shows how unattractive the product is. Filling the schedule up with street circuits is like admitting defeat: the product cannot pull people to racetracks so I have to bring the racing to the urban cores so people will come. Most of whom aren't really race fans, just party fans, who will not watch the next race on the TV.





One has to look at the demise of Champ Car to see how slippery this slope is. Champ Car didn't take this route willingly, it's what happened to it. It's what happening to IndyCar as well. It's not like the powers that be like street races, street races are just the last refuge for a dying series to appear alive for a couple of years.

Sad words here but I tend to agree. It may be reality unfortunately. Race tracks need priority here, not street courses, where as we see in the long run lose money, look at Baltimore. It's sad, I dont know what the immediate fix is but it certainly isnt more street courses. It scares me to be honest. I love Indycar and I love open wheel racing on ovals, there is NOTHING more exciting to me.

[SoCalPVguy]

We already have enough road/street courses.

I disagree

[DanicaFan]

I disagree

How can you disagree, there are WAY TOO MANY street/road courses. Its sad, real sad. :(

[00steven]

How can you disagree, there are WAY TOO MANY street/road courses. Its sad, real sad. :(

I hope you recorded all of the IRL seasons because there won't be anymore all oval seasons again. I wish the series would have 50/50 but that's not possible right now. People just aren't going to the ovals other than Indy.

[SarahFan]

It's not that there are too many road and street races ... It's that we are shirt a dozen ovals

[SoCalPVguy]

How can you disagree, there are WAY TOO MANY street/road courses. Its sad, real sad. :(

Your model of an all oval open wheel series is a proven financial failure in today's market. Plus of course if you're for it I am automatically against it LOL given your poor judge of driving talent and racing economics

[heliocastroneves#3]

Well, I don't want them to return to the oval days. I want a schedule like we had in 2010, 9 road/streets and 8 ovals is perfect. But I understand this isn't possible right now, and I like road racing very much as well... Especially the races on a street course, and we have enough of them. I can't say I'm not happy with this schedule, I'm curious if Power is still such dominant on them with the new car. The only thing I want is at least the finale to be on an oval, nothing more and nothing less.

[Chris R]

I think the series probably needs to pick at least one or two additional ovals and "make" them work - in other words - make sure the racing is excellent and plan on losing money. The success of the entire series depends on the diversity of the tracks - it is the only thing that truly sets Indycars apart from the rest....

I have been reading some racing "history" books lately. This attendance problem is nothing new - even in the "golden Age(s)" there were more than a few events that did not do well/survive. Places like Ontario & Trenton died - there were more than a few events at places i have never heard of that only lasted a couple of seasons (both ovals and road courses)... I am forced to conclude that racing's normal state of existence is as a niche sport. The boom days of CART in particular were not the norm but just a wonderful confluence of events that allowed the sport of Indycar racing to thrive in spite of itself, not because of anything anybody did "right".... In 20 years, we will be saying the same thing about NASCAR (which has clearly peaked - but due to excellent management is having a fairly shallow glide path down to the reality of a niche sport....). Racing is not alone in this sense. Those of you who grew up in the 1980's probably remember that nearly every weekend was filled with huge and elaborate rock concerts at the local sports arena or stadium - now nobody will pay to see most of them.... Basketball and Hockey are nowhere near as popular as they once were....

As fans of Indycar we need to adjust our expectations.... A 12-15 race series with a mixture of tracks and a high quality internet product and teams largely supported by wealthy individuals with occasional multi-season binges by corporate spenders is what we can/should expect. TV is ancient history and too expensive. Cost controlled spec racing is a desperate attempt to cling to the immediate past (tv, big sponsors, big series...). We need to boldly move to the future and embrace the limitations of our sport and give the participants a more modest model that allows the sport to show the creativity and innovation that made the sport interesting in the first place even though it was never really "big time" then....

Back to the ovals vs. road course argument, Champcar didn't survive a lack of diversity (or lack of Indy really) - but Indy cannot survive if you cannot take the sport "to the people" - which is really the street courses in particular... Yes, we need more than just Indy for ovals and we need carefully selected street courses - but people need to see an Indycar in an environment that is familiar to them to understand just how awesome the sport is... The fact is we need both and the different types of tracks really need each other - all road courses don't give you a sense of the awesome speed potential of the car and all ovals gives you no frame of reference to what is really happening on the track....

[SarahFan]

Are street races financially successful at this point?

[Chris R]

Are street races financially successful at this point?

I am not sure, as a group, they are any more or less successful than any other race. Long Beach is appears to be successful - but not too many others have survived through the years.... I think the biggest problem with street races may be the political volatility which in an of itself makes them financially problematic....

I really think it gets down to a well run race can be profitable regardless of the type of circuit (within reason) and a poorly run (or just plain unfortunate) event will lose money on any type of circuit... Indycar needs races with more viable business models regardless of the type if track....

[SoCalPVguy]

Are street races financially successful at this point?

The real question is: Are ANY races financially successful at this point?

Indy500 yes, LBGP yes, I heard possibly Iowa.. All others NO. Indycar reminds me of an old financial joke " I lose money on every deal but I make up for it in volume".

[mike15]

My preference would be to bring back two 500 mile race one being at MIS then the classic schedule, Detroit, Toronto, Cleveland, Mid-Ohio and MIS.

[bugeyedgomer]

can you amagine how horrible it would have been if C^RT had 8 street parades on one calendar. the howls from 16th and Georgetown would have been deafening, giving rise to calls for a new open wheel series.

[heliocastroneves#3]

Luckily we have that new open wheel series, and it actually does already exist since 1996, and it merged with C^RT in 2008.

I think 2012 will be a great year, I can't say the street races were boring this year. However I would like it if in 2013 some ovals on the calendar would return like; Phoenix, Pocono and Michigan.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

can you amagine how horrible it would have been if C^RT had 8 street parades on one calendar. the howls from 16th and Georgetown would have been deafening, giving rise to calls for a new open wheel series.

Actually, it's nothing new. Look at the the 1991 CART IndyCar schedule. There were only 5 oval races (Phoenix, Indy, Milwaukee, Michigan and Nazareth) out of 17 and there were 8 temporary circuits (Surfers Paradise, Long Beach, Detroit, Cleveland, Meadowlands, Toronto, Denver and Vancouver). This kind of scheduling were one of the reasons that lead to the split.

[Blancvino]

And now, there is NO schedule finalized less than four months before the "start" of the season. 50/50 odds the 2012 season finishs. 2013 - no answering the bell, period. To quote "Dandy" Don Meredeth - "turn out the lights, the party's over"

[Dr. Krogshöj]

A bold prediction. Care to back it up with a wager? How about a six pack of my, or your, favorite craft brew?

How about a $10,000 bet?

[jwhite9185]

No real surprises...

Provisional 2012 IZOD IndyCar Series Schedule:

March 25 St. Petersburg, Fla. (street course)
April 1 Birmingham, Ala. (road course)
April 15 Long Beach, Calif. (street course)
April 29 Sao Paulo, Brazil (street course)
May 27 Indianapolis 500, In. (oval)
June 3 Detroit, Mich. (street course)
June 9 Fort Worth, Texas (oval)
June 23 Newton, Iowa (oval)
July 8 Toronto, Ontario (street course)
July 22 Edmonton, Alberta (airport course)
Aug. 5 Lexington, Ohio (road course)
Aug. 19 Qingdao, China (street course)
Aug. 26 Sonoma, Calif. (road course)
Sept. 2 Baltimore, Md. (street course)
Sept. 15 Fontana, Calif. (oval)

Provisional 2012 IndyCar schedule released - Racer.com (http://www.racer.com/provisional-2012-indycar-schedule-released/article/219673/)

Not seen anything mentioned on indycar.com though as mentioned in the article.

[heliocastroneves#3]

No real surprises...

Provisional 2012 IZOD IndyCar Series Schedule:

March 25 St. Petersburg, Fla. (street course)
April 1 Birmingham, Ala. (road course)
April 15 Long Beach, Calif. (street course)
April 29 Sao Paulo, Brazil (street course)
May 27 Indianapolis 500, In. (oval)
June 3 Detroit, Mich. (street course)
June 9 Fort Worth, Texas (oval)
June 23 Newton, Iowa (oval)
July 8 Toronto, Ontario (street course)
July 22 Edmonton, Alberta (airport course)
Aug. 5 Lexington, Ohio (road course)
Aug. 19 Qingdao, China (street course)
Aug. 26 Sonoma, Calif. (road course)
Sept. 2 Baltimore, Md. (street course)
Sept. 15 Fontana, Calif. (oval)

Provisional 2012 IndyCar schedule released - Racer.com (http://www.racer.com/provisional-2012-indycar-schedule-released/article/219673/)

Not seen anything mentioned on indycar.com though as mentioned in the article.

I've seen the schedule on IndyCar.com yesterday, in the schedules section, but I saw they deleted it today. I expect another street race to be added to the schedule, but I won't be surprised at all if it would be an oval anyway.

[DanicaFan]

The provisional schedule is horrible. As I have said before, for the first time I am not even excited about this coming season of Indycar. I do not want to watch an American version of F1. Hardly any ovals, no Danica, just cant get excited.

[SarahFan]

NASCAR has 30+ ovals AND Danica!!!

What do you think her odds are to get a win in 2012?
Win the championship?

[DanicaFan]

NASCAR has 30+ ovals AND Danica!!!

What do you think her odds are to get a win in 2012?
Win the championship?

I know! Im excited. NASCAR is now my favorite form of auto racing. Danica will get at least a couple wins next year, I am excited.

[SarahFan]

So you 100% Danica gets a win?

[anthonyvop]

I've seen the schedule on IndyCar.com yesterday, in the schedules section, but I saw they deleted it today. I expect another street race to be added to the schedule, but I won't be surprised at all if it would be an oval anyway.

Right now the Hold Up is Texas. They haven't signed a contract and Randy Bernard is either there or leaving shortly to meet with the boss to hammer out the deal

[DanicaFan]

So you 100% Danica gets a win?


Yep!

[Lee Roy]

Right now the Hold Up is Texas. They haven't signed a contract and Randy Bernard is either there or leaving shortly to meet with the boss to hammer out the deal

Does anyone seriously think that Baltimore is going to happen?

[heliocastroneves#3]

Ehm DanicaFan, what's wrong with 11 road/streets on the IndyCar calendar? I mean IndyCar will probably have races on those courses where we will see a lot of passing or strange things happening, while EVERY F1 race is the same sleepover. Despite the fact IndyCar is having a lot of road/street courses right now, doesn't make it a second F1. It would be a second F1 if in all those races nothing would happen and there wouldn't be any passing. But I'm 100% sure this is not gonna happen. The most boring IndyCar race of this year, is even better then the best F1 race of this year.

And keep in mind that in 2013, oval fans like you could be very surprised with some ovals probably making their return. I prefer oval racing as well, but in my opinion it has to be 50/50. It's not possible right now, live with it!

[SarahFan]

Why does anyone believe we will see more than 4 or 5 ovals in 2013?

I understand the want... But this has been the trend, ratings and attendance certainly don't dictate a return

[heliocastroneves#3]

Why does anyone believe we will see more than 4 or 5 ovals in 2013?

I understand the want... But this has been the trend, ratings and attendance certainly don't dictate a return

Well, at least there have been talks with Chicagoland, Pocono, Phoenix and Michigan, if I'm correct.

[SarahFan]

There has?

[bugeyedgomer]

50/50 at this point.

$150 million promised by IMS

According to a UM-Baltimore County sports economics professor estimates that the race prompted only about $15 million in additional spending

Further, the race management firm is insolvent and has over $12 million in unpaid expenses, of which the city is owed $1.9 million.

The report says the Baltimore Grand Prix produced $440,000 in admissions and amusement tax revenue for the city, but state comptroller records show that amount is about as much as it collected for the city from sales of tickets and other taxed items during the entire month of September. And the figure is down more than 30 percent from collections a year earlier.

City logistical support for the event and $6.5 million in road improvements had been justified by big economic-benefit projections that did not prove accurate.

"Is this really what we mean by success?" said Coates, with the University of Maryland, Baltimore County.

[bugeyedgomer]

--I'm pretty sure that the Indianapolis Motor Speedway didn't promise anybody in Baltimore anything.---
1) The CART figures Angstadt used to promote 3 day street festivals

--A what? Never heard of a Baltimore County sports economics professor and I'm pretty sure friends of mine who live there would object strongly to the County having one on the payroll.--
2) The U of M - I'm pretty sure your friends object to education. I've read some incoherent ramblings from B'more fans

--The second part is obviously false--
3) Sue the State for falsifying financial data, see #1

I'm enjoying watching the IRL become what it spent years and hundreds of millions of dollars to destroy.

Are you aware that since the IRL took over the the St. Pete GP, that St. Petersburg has become the saddest place to live in America?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2068500/Americas-saddest-cities-revealed--3-Sunshine-State.html

[nigelred5]

What is the average age of a citizen in St Petersburg? Could it be that everyone there is tired of seeing everyone around them dying all the time.

[anthonyvop]

Are you aware that since the IRL took over the the St. Pete GP, that St. Petersburg has become the saddest place to live in America?


St. Pete has always been a dumpy city. It is actually 2 cities. One part is populated by retires from the North East. The other part is a typical inner-city style slum.

[DanicaFan]

Here is how the 2012 schedule will most likely look like when announced shortly. Unless something drastic happens, Texas will announce a 2 race event again this year making the 16 race count that Indycar needs to complete a schedule. That is pretty sad if you ask me.

Here is the 2012 Indycar season schedule..


March 25: St. Petersburg, Fla. (street circuit)
April 1: Barber Motorsports Park (permanent road course)
April 15: Long Beach, Calif. (street circuit)
April 29: São Paulo, Brazil (street circuit)
May 27: Indianapolis Motor Speedway (oval)
June 3: Detroit (street circuit)
June 9: Texas Motor Speedway (oval)
June 23: Iowa Speedway (oval)
July 8: Toronto (street circuit)
July 22: Edmonton (street circuit)
Aug. 5: Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course (permanent road course)
Aug. 19: Qingdao, China (street circuit)
Aug. 26: Infineon Raceway (permanent road course)
Sept. 2: Baltimore (street circuit)
Sept. 15: Auto Club Speedway (oval)

[heliocastroneves#3]

And the season will already end in September. But that also happened in 2006, 2007 and 2008, so that's nothing new. I like the schedule, as it's having enough street races. I like the racing on permanent road courses as well, but if I've to make a choice between permanent or temporary street courses, I definitely choose for that last one. It's also nice that the season will end at the Auto Club Speedway, where the season also ended in 2005. The season finale will be a night race again, like it was in 2010 at Homestead. :)

[Lee Roy]

50/50 at this point.

The Baltimore Grand Prix website has been down for a couple of days now.

[DanicaFan]

The Baltimore Grand Prix website has been down for a couple of days now.

Still having financial problems at Baltimore. Not good. Baltimore Racing Development has until December 31st of this year to pay back more than a million dollars in taxes.

[DanicaFan]

Texas will also host one race there on June 9th, no more twin race gimmick. Im glad, Texas was always a good race, there was no reason to mess with it.

[heliocastroneves#3]

Totally agree with you, DanicaFan. I'm glad the 228-lap race is back.

[jwhite9185]

Are you aware that since the IRL took over the the St. Pete GP, that St. Petersburg has become the saddest place to live in America?

America's saddest cities revealed... and 3 are in the Sunshine State | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2068500/Americas-saddest-cities-revealed--3-Sunshine-State.html)


Really wouldn't take anything that 'newspaper' says seriously...

[zako85]

Ehm DanicaFan, what's wrong with 11 road/streets on the IndyCar calendar? I mean IndyCar will probably have races on those courses where we will see a lot of passing or strange things happening, while EVERY F1 race is the same sleepover. Despite the fact IndyCar is having a lot of road/street courses right now, doesn't make it a second F1. It would be a second F1 if in all those races nothing would happen and there wouldn't be any passing. But I'm 100% sure this is not gonna happen. The most boring IndyCar race of this year, is even better then the best F1 race of this year.


I will respectfully disagree. I have watched all of Formula 1 2011 races and most of IndyCar. Most of IndyCar street and road course races had been a big yawner, a parade show with some bumping action. Add to that F1's beautiful and unique cars of each team, beautiful venues, and action packed qualifiers, and the IndyCar is becoming a relative bore. At this rate, I might stop watching IndyCar after 2012..

There are not enough _exciting_ street and road courses in IndyCar IMO. I also don't like the abundance of street courses. They should be kept down to 2-3 really good ones. The race cars simply don't shine on those. Compare to F1, with only 3 street races in 2011. Out of those, the Monaco GP and Singapore were fine. Only the European GP was kind of boring to see.

[heliocastroneves#3]

The season finale might be held on a street circuit in Fort Lauderdale, BUT Milwaukee might be on the calendar as well! :D

IndyCar season may conclude in Fort Lauderdale | The Indianapolis Star | indystar.com (http://www.indystar.com/article/20120106/SPORTS0107/201060322/IndyCar-season-may-conclude-Fort-Lauderdale)

[SarahFan]

Don't know about the rest of you but even knowing its another race it's hard to get excited about another street race

[DanicaFan]

Don't know about the rest of you but even knowing its another race it's hard to get excited about another street race

I agree with that. I would love to see Milwaukee back but I have no interest in another street course....yawn...

If you want to end it in Florida, go to Homestead-Miami, another oval!

[heliocastroneves#3]

I agree with that. I would love to see Milwaukee back but I have no interest in another street course....yawn...

If you want to end it in Florida, go to Homestead-Miami, another oval!

Agree with you for 100%! Bring back Homestead! (And many other ovals...)


Don't know about the rest of you but even knowing its another race it's hard to get excited about another street race

I'm not excited about that street race (however I prefer a street race instead of a road course), but I'm very excited about Milwaukee. Despite it's not official yet, there's at least some hope!

[SarahFan]

If you need to add a race to keep izod happy then run the ims road coarse ... Sell $10 tickets if you bought a ticket to to the 500...

You'd get 60k or so .. Another mil in suites ...

Thats 7mil.... Say it costs 5 mil to run/promote ..

Now you've 2 mil to throw at series promotion

[DBell]

If you need to add a race to keep izod happy then run the ims road coarse ... Sell $10 tickets if you bought a ticket to to the 500...

You'd get 60k or so .. Another mil in suites ...

Thats 7mil.... Say it costs 5 mil to run/promote ..

Now you've 2 mil to throw at series promotion

60k at IMS looks about the same as 15 at Milwaukee. Besides, that wouldn't be a street course. Hasn't a rule been passed that they can only add races that are street courses or something? Every potential race being talked about anymore is a street course. IndyCar seems to have been updated with a CC V2 patch.

[SarahFan]

60k is double what Ft Lauderdale is going to get ...

Plus the cash flows sideways ....

We've seen the Baltimore mess ... Can the series really survive another fiasco?

[nigelred5]

60k is double what Ft Lauderdale is going to get ...

Plus the cash flows sideways ....

We've seen the Baltimore mess ... Can the series really survive another fiasco?

I love oval racing, especially on the flat 1mile tracks, but Milwaukee, New Hampshire and LasVegas were anyhing less of a fiasco? We don't know how much those three races lost, but I can guarantee they did. There were more people in attendance in Baltimore than all three ovals combined. Baltimore lost money due to poor management, not a lack of attendees or local suport. Everyone is so willing to give New Hampshire, Milwaukee, and Las Vegas chance after chance after chance. Why???? Haven't all three tracks PROVEN there is no Indycar fan base at any of them. None of the three has EVER pulled a crowd for an indycar event. The last time any of them did was in the 90's as CART races. The split alienated one hell of a lot of fans and rit;s painfully obvious, they aren't coming back and the ADDgenerations simply don't give a rats behind about oval racing. We're talking 15 years of apathy there. If Indycar is going to race at tracks like that, then everyone might as well forget about TV, major sponsorships and top level drivers. They might as well run tube frame sprint cars and charge $12 a head for that kind of a crowd.

[heliocastroneves#3]

Well, the attendance at Las Vegas was worser than at Milwaukee and New Hampshire. New Hampshire wasn't even that bad. How the hell no one is attending those races? I mean Texas always has a "good" attendance, why Milwaukee, Las Vegas and New Hampshire are failing that much then? Maybe Las Vegas should've been a night race anyway. They could try this with Milwaukee. I'm one of the "new guys" in IndyCar racing, and as much as I like road/street racing, it's nothing like racing on a 1 mile, a 1,5 mile, a 2 mile or a 2,5 mile oval.

[SarahFan]

40k at Baltimore just isn't enough....

80k for a few years to pay the infrastructure...... Buzz wheres off and you Settle into a nice 50 or 55k and the event can make it......

The 15-20k the ovals are getting and/or the 40 ft Lauderdale is likely to get are getting the series it's teams and the racers no where .....QUICK


I love oval racing, especially on the flat 1mile tracks, but Milwaukee, New Hampshire and LasVegas were anyhing less of a fiasco? We don't know how much those three races lost, but I can guarantee they did. There were more people in attendance in Baltimore than all three ovals combined. Baltimore lost money due to poor management, not a lack of attendees or local suport. Everyone is so willing to give New Hampshire, Milwaukee, and Las Vegas chance after chance after chance. Why???? Haven't all three tracks PROVEN there is no Indycar fan base at any of them. None of the three has EVER pulled a crowd for an indycar event. The last time any of them did was in the 90's as CART races. The split alienated one hell of a lot of fans and rit;s painfully obvious, they aren't coming back and the ADDgenerations simply don't give a rats behind about oval racing. We're talking 15 years of apathy there. If Indycar is going to race at tracks like that, then everyone might as well forget about TV, major sponsorships and top level drivers. They might as well run tube frame sprint cars and charge $12 a head for that kind of a crowd.

[SarahFan]

What we got here folks is CART envy Champcar execution

[nigelred5]

Original. Same comment from three different posters at TF... ;)

As has been said, South Florida is a wasteland for attracting sports fans, and the series simply doesn't draw well enough to pull large numbers of fans from outside of the local markets in most instances, even in warm weather resort areas. The only sport that draws a consistent crowd is a 'Caines football game and even that has gone down since moving to Dolphins stadium. It's a shame Sanchez built Homestead in Homestead but the real state was REAL cheap after Andrew.

What I don't ever see evidence of is all of these independent promoters that show up to promote street races trying to team up with permanent racing facilities trying to partner up on events.

[SarahFan]

That poster at TF is me btw

[mike15]

What is the point of bringing back oval race were the attendance has been poor at best.
That said I would like the return of (3) 500 mile races.
Of course I would like to see Michigan return if somehow they can boost attendance.

[anthonyvop]

Original. Same comment from three different posters at TF... ;)

As has been said, South Florida is a wasteland for attracting sports fans, .


NASCAR At Homestead sells out and Don't forget Sebring which draws 100,000+ every year.

[nigelred5]

Nascar is the season Finale.. as we know NASCAR travels well in RV's. NASCAR fans are well accustomed to bringing their own accomodations and their own party. There's more RV's at the average NASCAR race than spectators at an Indycar race unfortunately. Indycar drew flies at homestead, just like the Dolphins, Marlins, Panthers, even the Heat doesn't sell our 100% of the time. Sebring is Florida's Preakness. It's not the largest race in the sport, but it is a very prominent race and draws one hell of a party. and just like hte Preakness, the #1 question always is: How many of those 100K are even aware there is a race (or even conscious) for the majority of the 24 hours? Why has Indycar or CART before them never held a race at Sebring? They know it won't draw as many flies as a dead armadillo.

[DavePI2]

all i know is I ordered my tickets for 1. Indy 2. Detroit and 3. MidOhio, hope to see you there.

[anthonyvop]

Nascar is the season Finale.. as we know NASCAR travels well in RV's. NASCAR fans are well accustomed to bringing their own accomodations and their own party. There's more RV's at the average NASCAR race than spectators at an Indycar race unfortunately. Indycar drew flies at homestead, just like the Dolphins, Marlins, Panthers, even the Heat doesn't sell our 100% of the time. Sebring is Florida's Preakness. It's not the largest race in the sport, but it is a very prominent race and draws one hell of a party. and just like hte Preakness, the #1 question always is: How many of those 100K are even aware there is a race (or even conscious) for the majority of the 24 hours? Why has Indycar or CART before them never held a race at Sebring? They know it won't draw as many flies as a dead armadillo.


Funny How Champ Car sold well at Homestead...

Anyway if Sebring is the Preakness then what is the Kentucky Derby?

BTW Every Dolphin Home Game since the 1970's have been a Sell out. The Marlins are a Sick joke and NOBODY CARES ABOUT HOCKEY!!!!

[DanicaFan]

It looks like Milwaukee will be on this year's schedule. That is finally some good news for the schedule.

[heliocastroneves#3]

True. But when it will be confirmed? In February I guess?

[nigelred5]

Funny How Champ Car sold well at Homestead...

Anyway if Sebring is the Preakness then what is the Kentucky Derby?

BTW Every Dolphin Home Game since the 1970's have been a Sell out. The Marlins are a Sick joke and NOBODY CARES ABOUT HOCKEY!!!!

CHAMPCAR, sure it did? How long has that been now? What has INDYCAR done at homestead? What's attendance been like there in the past ten years.? Why are they planning a street race in lauderdale if Indycar is a draw in Homestead? ISC knows it's a money looser.

The Marlins,, the team Miami is spending HOW many millions to build a 37K seat retractible dome and yet, it will still be half empty? They'll draw a larger crowd for a Jerry Falwell revival.(yeah, I know he's dead)

They don't have a Kentucky Derby Equivalent. Been to it twice, in the infield. I felt like I was at a church sermon compared to the Preakness. Mint julips..... bah! Preakness is( well was) 12 hose beer bongs, wet t shirts and wondering how the H3!! you're gonna get home Sebring is 90+% no holds barred party where they happen to have a car race. Not knocking it, I've been there several times, but it's is clearly obvious the race isn't why most folks are there. I've been th the Preakness at least 20 times, I've yet to see a single horse race.
I"ve been to Joe Robbie, Pro Player or what ever it is now 4 times for games in the past 5 years. My uncle lives in Lauderdale and one of my best friends lives within walking distance of BankAtlantic Center. Walked up an bought a ticket at the box office for a dolphins game each and every time. They haven't had an announced attendance anywhere near a sell out for years.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

The Milwaukee Mile wants an IndyCar race in June. (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/indycar/story/2012-01-13/Milwaukee-Mile-2012-race/52534488/1) The targeted weekend is June 16-17. If it happened, there would be five race weekends in a row (Indy, Detroit, Texas, Milwaukee, Iowa). I would like to have Milwaukee on the schedule. It is the best oval track ever built for open-wheel cars. But I'd rather see the race on July 1 or Labor Day Weekend, if Baltimore falls through.

[FIAT1]

I wish they would come to RA but I will buy a ticket for Milwaukee and hope they stay and build this race for years to come.

[Nikki Katz]

I think the series does need a 17th race. There's only 16 at the moment, but one of those is still TBA, and another is looking a bit shakey! If it is a short schedule this year then I hope they get themselves sorted for 2013.

[heliocastroneves#3]

In 2006 there only were 14 races on the schedule, and still it was a great season. =)

[Lousada]

In 2006 there only were 14 races on the schedule, and still it was a great season. =)

There were 28 races in 2006...

[heliocastroneves#3]

There never has been such a huge amount of races on an IndyCar Series schedule. Of course when you count the ChampCar races as well, they did. But the IndyCar Series had just 14 races on the schedule. Sam Hornish Jr's last title, what a great season that was. Of course it was marred by the death of Paul Dana, but besides that it was a great season.

[FormerFF]

It's better to have a smaller number of well attended events that a larger number of poorly attended ones.

[heliocastroneves#3]

Yep, that's true. :)

[mike15]

Indycar needs more than one, 500 mile race and why not use the F1 layout at Indy for a second race.

[Marbles]

What is it with Milwaukee? Year after year it seems to be on the ropes. I thought they were ready to plow the thing under after last year. Everybody loves The Mile, I know I do, but apparently you need some sort of rainmaker for it to have any success whatsoever.

Ooops... shouldn't have said rainmaker.

[numanoid]

What is it with Milwaukee? Year after year it seems to be on the ropes. I thought they were ready to plow the thing under after last year. Everybody loves The Mile, I know I do, but apparently you need some sort of rainmaker for it to have any success whatsoever.

Ooops... shouldn't have said rainmaker.

Well, a few years ago they had a serious problem with promoters. I had heard, here perhaps, that a promoter was lined up, took the money and disappeared. That was the start of the death spiral.

Last year, they once again had promotion problems. I enjoyed the race thoroughly (it was my first race) but it was not very well run. Even with 2 for 1 tickets on race weekend it was pretty dead. In fairness though, there was rain all throughout the weekend including the morning of the race.

I really hope it comes back next year. I'll for sure make the drive again.

We were planning on going to Iowa. Maybe we'll see two races back to back!

[heliocastroneves#3]

I want to go to Fontana, but I live in The Netherlands.... So I just have to plan my holidays in September then.... Will talk about it with my gf, who loves racing, and especially IndyCar racing very much as well.

[FIAT1]

Milwaukee needs a sponsor and stability. I hate ovals but I'm there for last 19 years and this yo yo on and off have to stop. Either kill it or rebuild it. With new car and some real talent like Rubens people will show up. Onother thing I'm in Chicago and if I was not a fan I wouldn't know obout a race. Promotion is very poor. I'm ready for turbos this year -hope!

[jwhite9185]

I want to go to Fontana, but I live in The Netherlands.... So I just have to plan my holidays in September then.... Will talk about it with my gf, who loves racing, and especially IndyCar racing very much as well.

Went to the race there 3 times in the CART days. Very good facility, although it is kinda in the middle of nowhere.

Depending on your budget, try to stay at the Hilton in San Bernadino. A few of the teams stay there and sitting in the bar of that hotel one Saturday night, a very young Oriol Servia walked in! If not, thats the general area to aim for, as theres a lot of hotels and restaurants along that road and its only about 10 miles from the track.

[heliocastroneves#3]

Went to the race there 3 times in the CART days. Very good facility, although it is kinda in the middle of nowhere.

Depending on your budget, try to stay at the Hilton in San Bernadino. A few of the teams stay there and sitting in the bar of that hotel one Saturday night, a very young Oriol Servia walked in! If not, thats the general area to aim for, as theres a lot of hotels and restaurants along that road and its only about 10 miles from the track.

Thank you for the information, would be great to eventually see some drivers there!

I already heard from someone that the facility is indeed a little bit in the middle of nowhere hehe. :D

[nigelred5]

There were 28 races in 2006...

^This is why many of us DIDN'T want a merger.

IF we coulda/woulda/shoulda had cooperation instead of outright animosity between the series, we could have had a truly great thing in AMerican based open wheel racing.

[call_me_andrew]

and why not use the F1 layout at Indy for a second race.

Because 1 race with 250,000 people is better than 2 races with 125,000 people.

[garyshell]

Indycar needs more than one, 500 mile race and why not use the F1 layout at Indy for a second race.


Because 1 race with 250,000 people is better than 2 races with 125,000 people.

This assumes that somehow a road course race would siphon off half of the attendance of the 500. I think the assumption is faulty.

Gary

[mike15]

The Indy 500 has proved it can hold it's base of supporters so having another race on the road circuit would attract a different set of fans and probably many F1 fans just to see the comparison. Using the Brickyard 400 as the example, that race did not diminish the Indy 500 nor did the F1 race. So there is a history at Indy, that having more races does not take away from the 500.

[nigelred5]

They need to alter the road course again if it's really going to present any worthwile racing. Run the roadcourse counter clockwise, but at the end of Hulman BLVD, make a right before the north tunnel onto shaw drive. That will loop back towards turn 2. Either just before the back stretch tunnel, (or after but it would restrict infield access more) make a connection onto the backstretch in the wide paved area coming off of oval turn two. If you skipped the turn 1 road course complex added for MotoGP, that essentially adds the entire oval to the over all road course except for oval turn 2. That's actually minimal additonal track construction. Another alternative would be to make a left off of Hulman blvd as it presently does for the MotoGP course, but then connect motogp turn 12 with Shaw Drive. Either way without measuring the track, that would have to make it close to 4 miles and finally provide, IMHO a pretty cool infield track for open wheel and endurance racing.

Talk about requiring a compromise set up. Oval fans would see the majority of what they see now, and road course fans have plenty of roadcourse action as well.

[nigelred5]

The Indy 500 has proved it can hold it's base of supporters so having another race on the road circuit would attract a different set of fans and probably many F1 fans just to see the comparison. Using the Brickyard 400 as the example, that race did not diminish the Indy 500 nor did the F1 race. So there is a history at Indy, that having more races does not take away from the 500.

I think Many may argue the 400 has in fact diminished attendance at the 500. The USGP I would agree had no negative impact on the 500. Actually it improved IMS as a facility greatly by forcing some significant upgrades.

[garyshell]

I think Many may argue the 400 has in fact diminished attendance at the 500.

And many HAVE made that argument. But based on what measure, a moistened finger in the air? IMHO it's baseless.

Gary

[mike15]

Nigeled5 how can you be taken seriously when attendance for the brickyard has been going down while the attendance for the I500 has been going up.

[nigelred5]

And many HAVE made that argument. But based on what measure, a moistened finger in the air? IMHO it's baseless.

Gary

Vast stretches of visible Aluminum and infield grass at the 500 since the brickyard began are a start. It's certainly more than just that, however I find it hard to believe there arent quite a few fans that have to make the choice between the two. You don't think a whole lot of people in Indiana choose to see the Rushville Rocket over the past ten years or so? Just sayin'

[nigelred5]

Nigeled5 how can you be taken seriously when attendance for the brickyard has been going down while the attendance for the I500 has been going up.

You can take me however you want. Fact is, attendance at the 500 has been DOWN, sometimes signifcantly since 1994. It's gone UP since the merger, however I've still seen HUGE stretches of aluminum along the main straight and throughout turns 3 and 4. That NEVER happened before the Brickyard.

[chuck34]

You can take me however you want. Fact is, attendance at the 500 has been DOWN, sometimes signifcantly since 1994. It's gone UP since the merger, however I've still seen HUGE stretches of aluminum along the main straight and throughout turns 3 and 4. That NEVER happened before the Brickyard.

The last few years have seen much more bare aluminum for the 400 than the 500. But both are down from their heights, no doubt. But the 500 seems to be coming back up while the 400 is headed down.

And the economy sure hasn't helped any at all.

[nigelred5]

Agreed, but I stand by my statement. I have good friends that dropped their block of 25 500 tickets in turn 3 they had held since the early 70's in '99, but they still have the same block of tickets for the 400 they have had that they picked up when they dropped the tix for the 500. They were to the point where they were getting stuck with the 500 tix when they used to have a family and friends draw to see who got to pay Mike for one of his tickets. He had to do that for the 400 for years.

Fortunatley, I agree with you that 500 attendance APPEARS to be trending upwards and the 400, well, I don't really care as I think it's a miserable track for stock cars and never watch the race, but even 100K butts in seats helps keep IMS going and improving.

[mike15]

Your estimates of attendance is just wrong. Your estimate of 100,000 would make IMS look empty. Getting rid of the IRL image and restoring the Indycar image is going a long way in rebuilding interest. Plus going back to turbo charged engines with multiple suppliers will also add interest and bring back fans.

[FIAT1]

Your estimates of attendance is just wrong. Your estimate of 100,000 would make IMS look empty. Getting rid of the IRL image and restoring the Indycar image is going a long way in rebuilding interest. Plus going back to turbo charged engines with multiple suppliers will also add interest and bring back fans.

Agree, I think many people have forgotten how many free tickets beer and cigarette company's including engine suppliers would give in promotions.We all know damage that was done ,but I think Indycar this year is going to be turning point of a comeback.

[garyshell]

Agreed, but I stand by my statement. I have good friends that dropped their block of 25 500 tickets in turn 3 they had held since the early 70's in '99, but they still have the same block of tickets for the 400 they have had that they picked up when they dropped the tix for the 500. They were to the point where they were getting stuck with the 500 tix when they used to have a family and friends draw to see who got to pay Mike for one of his tickets. He had to do that for the 400 for years.

Fortunatley, I agree with you that 500 attendance APPEARS to be trending upwards and the 400, well, I don't really care as I think it's a miserable track for stock cars and never watch the race, but even 100K butts in seats helps keep IMS going and improving.

No one is questioning the facts, we are questioning the conclusion. You are speculating that the reason for the decline in interest in the 500, was because of the 400. But that ignores all of the other factors, not the least of which was the split. Personally, I think many more folks quit going because of the politics and the likes of the racing dentist filling the field for several years. Sure there were some folks who made a decision between the 500 and the 400, but I think that number is insignifcant.

Gary

[DanicaFan]

The Milwaukee Mile race is set now. It is the weekend of June 16th-17th.

[numanoid]

The Milwaukee Mile race is set now. It is the weekend of June 16th-17th.

Yep. Can't wait!

Milwaukee Mile IndyCar return confirmed for 2012 - Racer.com (http://www.racer.com/milwaukee-mile-indycar-return-confirmed-for-2012/article/227353/)

Got tickets t Iowa and will be going to Milwaukee as well. Looks like back to back race weekends for my wife and I.

[FIAT1]

The Milwaukee Mile race is set now. It is the weekend of June 16th-17th.

Great news, I hope they spend few bucks on promotions in newspaper and local tv stations in Chicago . I know Where I will be on that weekend. See you there!

[heliocastroneves#3]

Yeah! This is great news!

[nigelred5]

No one is questioning the facts, we are questioning the conclusion. You are speculating that the reason for the decline in interest in the 500, was because of the 400. But that ignores all of the other factors, not the least of which was the split. Personally, I think many more folks quit going because of the politics and the likes of the racing dentist filling the field for several years. Sure there were some folks who made a decision between the 500 and the 400, but I think that number is insignifcant.

Gary

First off I never sait it was MY conclusion, but I similarly question your assertion the 400 had negligible effect on the 500. Hell, I'll argue the mere presence of the 400 and the windfall it provided the track gave good ol TG the big boy britches to even start the IRL. The 400 was his hedge fund for decreased attendance and the cost of totally supporting the IRL, and I"ll actually give him credit for having the forethought to see that.

[DBell]

Great news, I hope they spend few bucks on promotions in newspaper and local tv stations in Chicago . I know Where I will be on that weekend. See you there!

Michael Andretti will be the guy to contact about promotion as he is the promoter of the event. According to Speed, he saved the event.

AUTO RACING - INDYCAR: Andretti Saves Milwaukee Mile (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-andretti-saves-milwaukee-mile/)

I hope they don't expect things to turn around overnight. It will need a minimum of a 3 year commitment to start to turn things around, imo.

[nigelred5]

Good to see they are willing to give Milwaukee another chance, but I wonder just how many times they will go back. It's 100% a track worth trying. Maybe later in the summer will guarantee warmer temps, get kids out of school, give longer to plan, etc... I just worry that a little over 4 months is time enoughto pull it together.

[nigelred5]

Michael Andretti will be the guy to contact about promotion as he is the promoter of the event. According to Speed, he saved the event.

AUTO RACING - INDYCAR: Andretti Saves Milwaukee Mile (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-andretti-saves-milwaukee-mile/)

I hope they don't expect things to turn around overnight. It will need a minimum of a 3 year commitment to start to turn things around, imo.

I have to give Michael props. He's stepped up numerous times trying to make this sport work. Team ownership, support series involvement, race promotion. Good on ya Mike.

[garyshell]

First off I never sait it was MY conclusion, but I similarly question your assertion the 400 had negligible effect on the 500. Hell, I'll argue the mere presence of the 400 and the windfall it provided the track gave good ol TG the big boy britches to even start the IRL. The 400 was his hedge fund for decreased attendance and the cost of totally supporting the IRL, and I"ll actually give him credit for having the forethought to see that.

On this point we both agree 100%. I will go so far as to say I still think the France family was whispering in King George's ear. "Hey kid, look what we did when we took complete control of our series..."

Gary

[Nikki Katz]

The Milwaukee Mile race is set now. It is the weekend of June 16th-17th.
Good news!!!

Is the replacement for Vegas now dead? Would still love to see a 17th race.

[heliocastroneves#3]

Yeah me too.... And please.... Let it be an oval.... Bring back Homestead! (Although I still like the Vegas oval very much, I think it was a good decision to cancel it for this year.... Especially because it would be held exactly one year after we lost Dan.)

[DBell]

I don't think there are anymore races that are going to be added this year. This gets them to their contractual obligation of 16 and now they have to hope like hell that Baltimore somehow survives. The other races rumored aren't going to happen this year at this late date.

@ heliocastroneves#3: After years of IndyCar racing at Homestead with no one showing up, why do you think that will change if they go back? Unlike Milwaukee, I don't think IndyCar will ever get fans to show up there. I think Milwaukee has a chance to, but it is a steep uphill climb. Vegas, in current configuration, is done as a track for IndyCar. It is just not right for it. Plus, it's another race that IndyCar has never been able to attract people to over the years. How many tickets did they give away last year for one of the heaviest promoted IndyCar races , outside the 500? 75-80k? And they got maybe 15-18k to show up.

[heliocastroneves#3]

Well, the investigation about the Vegas race had another result.... But indeed, I think the calendar will remain for what it is. This would mean the finale would be held on Auto Club Speedway; one of my favorite ovals. Night races this year will be held at Texas, Iowa and Auto Club right?

[nigelred5]

There has been a little. There are three groups that definitely have submitted proposals. One local group, one from PA, and the group headed by the guy that came in the last month and basicallt saved the day. Way too many beers to spew the details. From my understanding, the Local group has barely recieved the courtesy of acknowledgement of reciept of their proposal. From the sound of it, Indycar and the city know whot they want, they have to igure out how to make it work.

[anthonyvop]

When it comes to the Milwaukee race I believe Albert Einstein had it right


“Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.”

[nigelred5]

When it comes to the Milwaukee race I believe Albert Einstein had it right

I have the same feeling. Fortunately/unfortunately, the racing is not the problem. It's the way it has been managed and promoted since Carl Haas stepped away from teh race that it just can't seem to draw a crowd. It is THE classic Indycar short track. It's too bad there aren't more flat fairgrounds style short tracks on the schedule. I'd love to replace the whopping 9 days of horse racing annually at our state fairgrounds with car racing, but it would never happenin that neighorhood.

[nigelred5]

update on Baltimore:

Baltimore grand Prix: City picks new management team - baltimoresun.com (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/breaking/bs-md-grand-prix-selection-20120210,0,7934555.story)

[mike15]

The brickyard 400 is a novelty race and one of the worst NASCAR races on the schedule and the main reason attendance has been going down. The only thing that makes the race noteworthy is because it is at IMS.

Over the years at IMS for the I500 there were four types of fans, those that loved the I500 no matter what raced there, the IRL/TG fan, the CART faithful who gave up their I500 tickets and finally the corporations that gave away their tickets just to keep a foot in the door at IMS.

With all the changes coming to Indycar in 2012 including new chassis the return of the turbo charged engines, multiple engine manufacturers and elimination of the last of IRL management I believe you will see renewed interest in Indycar from long time fans of American Open Wheel racing. As the new chassis develops towards additional manufacturers interest will again increase.

[anthonyvop]

I have the same feeling. Fortunately/unfortunately, the racing is not the problem. It's the way it has been managed and promoted since Carl Haas stepped away from teh race that it just can't seem to draw a crowd. It is THE classic Indycar short track. It's too bad there aren't more flat fairgrounds style short tracks on the schedule. I'd love to replace the whopping 9 days of horse racing annually at our state fairgrounds with car racing, but it would never happenin that neighorhood.

I hear people say that the racing isn't the problem and I wonder what race they are watching.

The cars look ridiculous there like an adult sitting in a Kindergarten classroom chair. Too big and overpowered to be driving around in a circle. It is the poster child for those who dislike ovals.

I know that many will take exception to this but look at it from the point of view of people who don't like oval racing.

[anthonyvop]

There has been a little. There are three groups that definitely have submitted proposals. One local group, one from PA, and the group headed by the guy that came in the last month and basicallt saved the day. Way too many beers to spew the details. From my understanding, the Local group has barely recieved the courtesy of acknowledgement of reciept of their proposal. From the sound of it, Indycar and the city know whot they want, they have to igure out how to make it work.

City officials are completing a five-year deal with a new group to manage the Baltimore Grand Prix and plan to announce the terms of the deal Wednesday, (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/breaking/bs-md-grand-prix-selection-20120210,0,7934555.story)


The mayor's office did not say who would receive the contract to operate the three-day racing festival.

So much for open and transparent governance in Baltimore.

[DBell]

I hear people say that the racing isn't the problem and I wonder what race they are watching.

The cars look ridiculous there like an adult sitting in a Kindergarten classroom chair. Too big and overpowered to be driving around in a circle. It is the poster child for those who dislike ovals.

I know that many will take exception to this but look at it from the point of view of people who don't like oval racing.

I know you don't like ovals and I'll accept that this is you view of Milwaukee, but you should accept that your view is a minority view among IndyCar fans and out of step with what a majority of fans want. For me, I like ovals like Milwaukee, the old Phoenix, and Loudon. It's the banked Nascar ovals I don't bother with. To me, Milwaukee was one of the better races last year. The difference between Milwaukee and a place like Homestead is the Mile was once a successful race. If they give it 3 years and can't grow the fanbase back to respectable levels, then it's time to draw a line under Milwaukee.

[heliocastroneves#3]

If you don't like oval racing, then F1 is better to watch I think.... Now we're only having 5 ovals on the schedule, but about some years it could be the half of the schedule or a little more... And then an IndyCar season might be not that enjoyable for you. It's a pity for you ChampCar doesn't exist anymore... If I'm right they only had road/street courses in 2007 and on the 2008 schedule there were only road/street courses planned as well.

I truly love the 1,5 mile high banked ovals but Milwaukee always has great races, and I think another 1 mile oval needs to be on the schedule. Really hope Phoenix can make it's return in 2013.

What about a return to Chicagoland? It's kinda ridiculous that this oval is not on the schedule anymore in my opinion. But at least we have 16 races, of course I hope for a 17th race, but I'm already very happy with Milwaukee being on the schedule for this year.

[mike15]

I believe attendance is the only measure of what racing fans want and attendance has not been at Milwaukee and other ovals for a long time. The minority are the fans, holding on to ovals that at one time was an attraction but not today based on attendance. You can blame promotion all you want but even knowledgeable fans that have a schedule don't attend those races.

[heliocastroneves#3]

Yeah, I would love to attend those races.... But for me it's not that easy to do, as I live in The Netherlands.... That's far outside the United States, and so I'm only able to attend those races when I have some holidays..... :(

Of course the lack of attendance is the reason for the lack of ovals, but I can remember times when at Kansas there was enough attendance and when the attendance at Homestead and Milwaukee was not even that bad..... Also to make the Chicagoland event a night race was a big mistake. I love night races, but the attendance was terrible in 2010 compared to 2007/2008 when it was just a race in the afternoon.

[nigelred5]

City officials are completing a five-year deal with a new group to manage the Baltimore Grand Prix and plan to announce the terms of the deal Wednesday, (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/breaking/bs-md-grand-prix-selection-20120210,0,7934555.story)


So much for open and transparent governance in Baltimore.

The details hadnot been finalized as of Friday evening. Even with open government rules, which I am bound by daily working directly with several government contractors, you don't announce who won a contract until it is signed sealed and delivered. It will be anounced wednesday. There is a protest period in government contracts once the contracts are announced. I will be shocked if it isn't the group led by Dale Dillon and Felix Dawson. Dawson is partnering with local financing and was involved in the group that originally tried to take over BRD before the city cancelled their contract. Dillon is basically Indycar's "guy" with a track record with the oronto and St Pete street races and came in and basically pulled a rabbit out of his backside and made the race happen. Bascially, they got rid of the questionable guys, kep the guy that actually knew what needs to be done, and partneredwith investors that actually have money.

[nigelred5]

I hear people say that the racing isn't the problem and I wonder what race they are watching.

The cars look ridiculous there like an adult sitting in a Kindergarten classroom chair. Too big and overpowered to be driving around in a circle. It is the poster child for those who dislike ovals.

I know that many will take exception to this but look at it from the point of view of people who don't like oval racing.

If they don't like ovals, I just assume they don't watch. I'm a fan of both and prefer real permanent road courses a bit more than ovals but the flat one milers are my absolute favorite. Fast, tight,dicingback and forth, closing in sometimes within inches a lap, working working to set up the overtake, sometimes just to loose teh position back as fast as they overtook. I loved New Hampshire, Phoenix, Nazareth and Milwaukee. The best was seeing Indycars lap a flat 1 milers at faster speeds than stock cars could manage at some of the high banked larger tracks.

I love Michigan and Fontana and Indy, I just don't like seeing them on the real high banked 1.5's and I especially dislike the flatter sweeping momentum 1.5's like Chicagoland and Kansas.

[nigelred5]

Yeah, Gimme some of this!

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/nuR7EVKT1To" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[anthonyvop]

I know you don't like ovals and I'll accept that this is you view of Milwaukee, but you should accept that your view is a minority view among IndyCar fans and out of step with what a majority of fans want. For me, I like ovals like Milwaukee, the old Phoenix, and Loudon. It's the banked Nascar ovals I don't bother with. To me, Milwaukee was one of the better races last year. The difference between Milwaukee and a place like Homestead is the Mile was once a successful race. If they give it 3 years and can't grow the fanbase back to respectable levels, then it's time to draw a line under Milwaukee.

Nope.

I would suggest recent history proves that the vast majority of Indycar fans do not like Ovals.
Remember the series was created as an all oval series and now is a series whose schedule is dominated by road and street courses. If Ovals were the most popular there would be more oval races.

[DBell]

Nope.

I would suggest recent history proves that the vast majority of Indycar fans do not like Ovals.
Remember the series was created as an all oval series and now is a series whose schedule is dominated by road and street courses. If Ovals were the most popular there would be more oval races.

If you view it in the most simplistic terms perhaps. More to the equation than what you describe.

[garyshell]

If you view it in the most simplistic terms perhaps. More to the equation than what you describe.

Gee, imagine that, the "journalist" leaving out parts of the equation.

Gary

[heliocastroneves#3]

I think the lack of promotion is the reason for the lack of attendance at oval races and so due to this the lack of ovals on the schedule. The reason that there's more attendance at especially street races, is because many people who do attend those races are not even real fans. It's just part of their day trip or holidays. For me it's not such a big problem as I enjoy the races on road/street courses as well, but for me there goes nothing above an oval race. Of course I can understand some other people are more a fan of road/street racing and that makes IndyCar such a beautiful sport. Because IndyCar has it all. I like road/street races enough to say that IndyCar would've even been my favorite form of motorsport if Indianapolis would've been the only oval. :) I've watched F1 as well, for a while.... But that became a boring parade, while the road racing in IndyCar is simply great. :D

[SarahFan]

Lack of promotion?

Vegas had arguably the most promotion of any race the past decade including free tickets and only garnered 15k

[anthonyvop]

If you view it in the most simplistic terms perhaps. More to the equation than what you describe.


A Simplistic view is the best view.

You can take in all of the other issues but it still all points to the fact that the people chose with their feet and their wallets in rejecting oval racing.

[garyshell]

A Simplistic view is the best view.

You can take in all of the other issues but it still all points to the fact that the people chose with their feet and their wallets in rejecting oval racing.

You can take in all of the other issues but it still all points to the fact that the people chose with their feet and their wallets in rejecting those SPECIFIC races. Taking it to some conclusion that it was a vote for ALL oval races requires a ridiculous leap of faith, but not at all surprising given the source for this conclusion.

As simplistic view is just that, a simple view.

Gary

[FIAT1]

Porhaps amateur pack racing with spec cars is part of the problem for boring high banked oval drive oround now days. This Indycar fan does not like nascar type slow, yellow after yellow etc type racing, therefore eliminate dumb down bumper cars , open competition on every level and they will come back with their feet and wallets .my opinion

[mike15]

If races depend on only the true race fan there would be fewer races. Marketing has more to do with attracting the non race fan to a race weekend and making that event the place to be at. Much like the Superbowl, it is more about the event than the actual game.

[FIAT1]

Porhaps, but In my case I hate ovals and Milwaukee mile is last place I want to be for just event , but I come every year for last 19 with group of people and spend money for two days because Im a fan. There is many like me who stayed home because of past wars, therefore building stature of Indy racing to high level where once was would help bring old fans and interest for new.

[nigelred5]

Lack of promotion?

Vegas had arguably the most promotion of any race the past decade including free tickets and only garnered 15k

Who were they targeting with their promotion and where? They could have opened the gates for anyone that would have showed up locally. IT they had promoted at that level for New Hampshire or Milwaukee, I suspect the turn out would have been different. I still have 4 free tix complements ICS for buying my Baltimore GP tix, but i still would have had to get to vegas, which really has little appeal to me. Give me those same free tickets to Milwaukee or Loudon and I would have gone to either.

[SarahFan]

Who were they targeting with their promotion and where? They could have opened the gates for anyone that would have showed up locally. IT they had promoted at that level for New Hampshire or Milwaukee, I suspect the turn out would have been different. I still have 4 free tix complements ICS for buying my Baltimore GP tix, but i still would have had to get to vegas, which really has little appeal to me. Give me those same free tickets to Milwaukee or Loudon and I would have gone to either.

Thats all well and good ... But my statement stands...

The earlier claimed the problem was lack of promotion for ovals ... Vegas is/was easily and far and away the most promoted race of the season ... Very few showed up

[garyshell]

Thats all well and good ... But my statement stands...

The earlier claimed the problem was lack of promotion for ovals ... Vegas is/was easily and far and away the most promoted race of the season ... Very few showed up

Was that because it was an oval, or because it was Vegas? I am not saying I know the answer to that question, I just saying that I don't know that anyone else does either.

Gary

[SarahFan]

The race was heavily promoted ... No one showed

It WAS an oval

[garyshell]

The race was heavily promoted ... No one showed

It WAS an oval

And the reason no one showed was?

Gary

[SarahFan]

Infer what want Gary ...

Bottom line is the earlier poster made a claim ... Clearly the heavily promoted oval in Vegas flys in face of his claim

[garyshell]

The only thing I am inferring is I am not sure anyone can infer that the sole issue was it was an oval.

Gary

[SarahFan]

Black

[heliocastroneves#3]

I mean, take Kentucky for an example. I don't think it had any promotion, as the race was called: Kentucky Indy 300. The attendance was terrible in 2011, and if I compare the attendance of 2011 to that from 2010, then I would almost say the 2010 event was very successful. Not to talk about the 2009 event there, it was even better then because it was promoted by Meijer. I also read multiple times about the Chicagoland race, that if some people wouldn't have been IndyCar fans (and then I'm talking about people who even live in Chicago) they wouldn't have known there was a race at Chicagoland Speedway. And that while it was promoted by Peak. That's what I mean with lack of promotion. I have seen video's of races at Kentucky, Kansas and Chicagoland when the attendance was simply good. I really don't understand why the hell the most of those races are financial sucking. Look at Iowa, it was except Indy, the best oval race in terms of attendance. The race itself was great as well, which means it might be a very successful event this year as well.

[mike15]

Somebody has to say it.
What has made NASCAR popular was the crashes that you could see from anywhere in the grandstands accept Indy.
IndyCar on the other hand, has fewer crashes especially on ovals. It's unfortunate that when IndyCar does crash on an oval there are injuries unlike NASCAR.

[garyshell]

Somebody has to say it.
What has made NASCAR popular was the crashes that you could see from anywhere in the grandstands accept Indy.
IndyCar on the other hand, has fewer crashes especially on ovals. It's unfortunate that when IndyCar does crash on an oval there are injuries unlike NASCAR.

No, no one has to say it. Such discussion is totally inappropriate.

Gary

[FIAT1]

Somebody has to say it.
What has made NASCAR popular was the crashes that you could see from anywhere in the grandstands accept Indy.
IndyCar on the other hand, has fewer crashes especially on ovals. It's unfortunate that when IndyCar does crash on an oval there are injuries unlike NASCAR.

Please say this is a joke...

[nigelred5]

Please say this is a joke...

It's been a given for many followers of NASCAR. NASCAR has actually gone back and forth with enforcing or assessing on track penalties for intentional contact for years. They rarely park anyone. Post race chats, undisclosed fines and slaps to the willy are the way in NASCAR. France actually encouraged drivers to settle it on the track last year until it was obviously getting out of control. Cheers are heard as often as gasps in the stands and I've personally heard people complain there weren't enough crashes leaving Dover more than once. NASCAR is modern day chariot racing, especially on the short tracks like Bristol, Martinsville and Richmond.

[DavePI2]

well I am one who is excited about this years schedule. I have my usual orders in for Indy and MidOhio and this year I am adding Detroit to the mix. Now I just too have to do a little digging and find out which is the best casino and other adult establishments in the detroit area.

[jimispeed]

Iowa and Alabama should trade places on the schedule!!

[nigelred5]

Iowa and Alabama should trade places on the schedule!!

Huh?? Are we going with studded tires and a little banked ice racing? What's the average temperature for April 1st in Newton Iowa? Alabama is ungodly hot and humid in late June. I would like to see the ovals and street courses broken up and alternating a little more but I'm sure it's easier on the teams to have them grouped together to keep cars in similar confugurations when travelling race to race without breaks in betwen race weekends.


It sucks I'll be in Orlando from March 28th to the 4th. I can't get down there for St Pete, and I'm tied up and can't make it to Barber the following weekend. If it's back to back next year, I'm going to try to do both races in a westie road trip. Leave the thursday before St Pete, make it back home the following monday with a week of Florida beach time inbetween..

[FIAT1]

It's been a given for many followers of NASCAR. NASCAR has actually gone back and forth with enforcing or assessing on track penalties for intentional contact for years. They rarely park anyone. Post race chats, undisclosed fines and slaps to the willy are the way in NASCAR. France actually encouraged drivers to settle it on the track last year until it was obviously getting out of control. Cheers are heard as often as gasps in the stands and I've personally heard people complain there weren't enough crashes leaving Dover more than once. NASCAR is modern day chariot racing, especially on the short tracks like Bristol, Martinsville and Richmond.

nascar comparison? Oh please! Not enough crashes? Demolition derby would be better then for some, I love racing and skill of passing without bumping people in the wall, but that is just me.

[DavePI2]

agree fiat, that pass miera made at indy in 08 on the front straight between dixon and carpentier is the best move I have seen in the 48 years I have watched racing.

[heliocastroneves#3]

There happen crashes on ovals very often, and 9 of the 10 times there are no injuries. I'm sure that at Vegas Dan Wheldon was just unlucky. I mean we saw the same happen to Conway at Indy, and Conway was lucky. As I always say; I love every type of IndyCar racing, but the racing on a 1,5 mile oval is just the best in my opinion. I just watched the 2010 Chicagoland race (the highlights), and it's simply amazing. Also the Vegas race, until the horrific crash was a great race. I'm happy Texas is on the schedule, and I think Chicagoland has a chance of returning, as Bernard had talks about a return in 2011. He didn't succeed, so for now a return is not likely, but with some good promotion this can become a very successful race.

That some people say that IndyCar shouldn't race on ovals is hypocritical bull****, because if it was really THAT unsafe, we would've had at least one fatal accident every year. If you want no more injuries or no more fatalities in racing, then you have to ban motorsport, because in a bad situation a multiple car pile up can also happen on a road/street course, which can be especially on a street course have a fatal accident as a result.

NASCAR can be funny to watch, but the reason for it's popularity is because it's a show. Why it's a show? Due the much accidents and the drivers' mentality. I think we will never see in IndyCar happening that a driver will knock someone out of the race as a revenge action. This is not racing, this is called amusement.. For the fans racing IS amusument, but NASCAR has a completely different form of amusement.That's why NASCAR is popular. Sometimes it's just frustrating people (and then I'm talking about people on another forum) don't wanna see 1,5 mile ovals anymore just because of one heavy accident. It is painful we lost Dan Wheldon, but that's not a reason to ban those ovals from the sport. If it really was that unsafe we would've had fatal accidents on them every year. Maybe Vegas wasn't suitable, but Kentucky, Texas, Chicagoland, Homestead-Miami, Twin Ring Motegi, Kansas, Nashville and maybe some others ARE suitable for IndyCar racing.

Sadly they're not a financial success hehe.

I have to agree for 100% that Meira's pass at the 2008 Indy 500 was the best move ever, and three-wide racing, side by side racing and passes like this are the reason I love IndyCar oval racing. Why do you think Danica made the move to NASCAR? She's more concerned about the race attendance then about her performance... She fears road/street races are boring, well, they aren't and it's not even her case to even care about it. Another reason she moved to NASCAR is because she can't control an IndyCar with a good setup on a fast oval. She never had the idea of making a move, she always played it safe. Just because she fears the high speeds. NASCAR is slower, and she can handle it better, but I doubt if she will try to overtake more. I still think she will play it safe there.

What do you guys think about the Detroit Belle Isle race anyway? I read somewhere that it might be a very successful event as already 80% of the business suites has been sold.

[nigelred5]

agree fiat, that pass miera made at indy in 08 on the front straight between dixon and carpentier is the best move I have seen in the 48 years I have watched racing.

Please don't misinterpret my comment as agreeing with that viewpoint, however it is the truth about many fans in a NASCAR crowd. Worst case scenario for a nascar fan is a caution free 500 mile race. They'd have a meltdown and demand NASCAR "fix the racing."

[DavePI2]

as i have mentioned once before I am very much looking forward to detroit. I love road racing and I haven't been to a street race since the days of the columbus 500. I purchased seats in grandstand 3 that would apppear to have a great view of the cars comming straight at me on the front straight as well as seeing the pits. Should be a great event. Now how to get away with taking a couple extra for the casinos.

[mike15]

It's no joke. Look how disappointed the NASCAR fans are when they resurface a track and there are fewer crashes. Dave Dispain covered those issues well on his program and he could not believe that what everyone was saying about NASCAR fans and crashes was apparently true based on the tone of conversations.
So deny it all you want but there are many fans of NASCAR that love to sit back in their seat at an oval, with their favorite beer, just waiting for the next crash. As was said above a Daytona 500 with out a crash would be most disappointing for many fans.
On the other hand, when Indycars raced at the 500 at MIS with the Hanaford device, people were on their feet lap after lap with the passes for the lead along with action in the pack of cars behind. There are cultural difference between an IndCar fan, a NASCAR fan and fans of road racing and how they view racing. We have not discussed road racing fans but many crave the low cost of camping on the grounds associated with a race weekend.

[FIAT1]

Watching video from Phoenix, track looks much better then before and they should start season there like in old days. Racing at Phoenix was very good and I will never forget Hiro and Jacques accident.Amazing .

[nigelred5]

Watching video from Phoenix, track looks much better then before and they should start season there like in old days. Racing at Phoenix was very good and I will never forget Hiro and Jacques accident.Amazing .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gjs_hDkjen8

Looks smooth, unfortunately, it doesn't "look" and I doubt it drives like Phoenix anymore. Looks like just every other Nascar track now, but I'dlike to see them back there.

Just as everywhere else they have tried to start the season, NASCAR has very strategically locked up the early-season, warm weather oval tracks and markets. NASCAR is in phoenix March 4th and Nov 11th, Las Vegas March 11th and Fontana March 20th and so unless they somehow worked a double with the evil empire, I doubt you'll see them back at Phoenix or anywhere in the southwest other than Long Beach at time in the spring when the temps are bearable.

[heliocastroneves#3]

Well, I liked the old Phoenix.... But if the new Phoenix will bring us races like we have at Iowa Speedway, I'm glad they gave it a huge update... Would love it if they would return to PIR in 2013.

[FIAT1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gjs_hDkjen8

Looks smooth, unfortunately, it doesn't "look" and I doubt it drives like Phoenix anymore. Looks like just every other Nascar track now, but I'dlike to see them back there.

Just as everywhere else they have tried to start the season, NASCAR has very strategically locked up the early-season, warm weather oval tracks and markets. NASCAR is in phoenix March 4th and Nov 11th, Las Vegas March 11th and Fontana March 20th and so unless they somehow worked a double with the evil empire, I doubt you'll see them back at Phoenix or anywhere in the southwest other than Long Beach at time in the spring when the temps are bearable.

Yeah, forgat obout nascar.