St. Devote was right about Button

[keysersoze]

I know fizzicist rated Button highly (and while I'm at it, just WHERE did fizzicist go?) but after seeing him lose to Fisichella at Benetton, and later struggle with the recalcitrant Honda (even Rubens was beating him), I've been very surprised over the last two season with how well Button has gotten on at McLaren, and in particular how evenly matched he is with Lewis. Perhaps the difference now is that while earlier in his career he had a few bad cars, McLaren always gives him a good one. Granted, he's not as consistent a qualifier as Hamilton, but he more often than not maximizes his races.

I used to think the absolute best were Alonso, Hamilton, and Vettel, but now I can honestly add Jenson to the that list.

[N. Jones]

I agree. He is so smooth during the race that if he could be a little more aggressive in qualifying he could be a serious challenger for a few wins.

[steveaki13]

Agree.

I remember after that good first season at Williams seeing him lapped 2 or 3 times and way behind Fisichella at Benetton. I thought he wouldn't find a drive the following year, but then outperformed Trulli in 02 and a good building season at BAR got him back into contention. I then thought he was a good midfielder. Like Panis or Trulli.

Then obviously 2004 was a great season for him so many podiums but no wins.

Then Honda went downwards and I thought around 2007 or 2008 he may fade away.


Then 2009 and the way he used the great car he had to win 6 races and beat Barrichello completley overjoyed me as I always followed him closely.

But as you said 2010 and 2011 have really shown he is up there now as one of the very best drivers in F1.

A great guy and great driver who is impressing me more and more each race, lets hope he can challenge for the title one more time at Mclaren

[ioan]

I never thought I would say it but indeed he is proving that he's more than a match for Hamy, something I didn't think would happen.
He's winning the intra-team battle this season and there are rumors that the many in the team prefer him instead of Lewis for his cerebral racing.

[steveaki13]

If Mclaren give him a car on par with a Red Bull next year, which I admit will be a struggle he should be able to win a few races and maybe challenge for the title. Although I think if the Red Bull and Mclaren are matched Vettel would still win the title.

[tfp]

I know fizzicist rated Button highly (and while I'm at it, just WHERE did fizzicist go?) but after seeing him lose to Fisichella at Benetton, and later struggle with the recalcitrant Honda (even Rubens was beating him), I've been very surprised over the last two season with how well Button has gotten on at McLaren, and in particular how evenly matched he is with Lewis. Perhaps the difference now is that while earlier in his career he had a few bad cars, McLaren always gives him a good one. Granted, he's not as consistent a qualifier as Hamilton, but he more often than not maximizes his races.

I used to think the absolute best were Alonso, Hamilton, and Vettel, but now I can honestly add Jenson to the that list.

:up: +1

[airshifter]

Jenson has improved his racecraft quite a bit IMO. It seems his ability and confidence has gone up as he got into the good cars. Being consistent and racing the whole race rather than racing for the second should keep him ahead of Lewis this year.

[F1boat]

He is a very good driver, but he seems a lot more confident now. I am impressed!

[The Black Knight]

I know fizzicist rated Button highly (and while I'm at it, just WHERE did fizzicist go?) but after seeing him lose to Fisichella at Benetton, and later struggle with the recalcitrant Honda (even Rubens was beating him), I've been very surprised over the last two season with how well Button has gotten on at McLaren, and in particular how evenly matched he is with Lewis. Perhaps the difference now is that while earlier in his career he had a few bad cars, McLaren always gives him a good one. Granted, he's not as consistent a qualifier as Hamilton, but he more often than not maximizes his races.

I used to think the absolute best were Alonso, Hamilton, and Vettel, but now I can honestly add Jenson to the that list.

He is certainly proving that he is a fantastic racer, there is no doubt about that. But once has to realise that Hamilton is having a poor season by his standard and is only 9 points, I think, behind Jenson in the championship. It's not a lot. Credit where credit is due to Jenson but once Hamilton gets himself together I can see Button being owned by him again. Jenson is a fantastic racer but I don't rate him on the same level as the top 3 and to do so I feel is getting completely carried away over a few good performances.

[The Black Knight]

Jenson has proved many of the doubters wrong with his racecraft and proves he was an excellent choice for McLaren. Lewis is having his worst season since entering the sport and is making mistakes that are throwing away valuable points. Jenson is consistent and is able to take advantage. Hats off to him and I hope his performance continues for the rest of the season. Part of me hopes he beats Lewis on points this year as it will be the kick up the rectum Lewis needs right now.

Yeah, that's how I feel, Henners. I was less than impressed with Lewis yesterday in the race. He was caught napping and couldn't pass Schumacher. He needs a kick in his rear end to get him into gear again and Button finishing ahead of him in the championship might be exactly what he needs.

[Big Ben]

I admit too he's much better than I thought and I'm quite pleased to see him beating that spoiled brat so nicely.

[jens]

I personally thought Button was driving really well already in BAR around 2004-06, but perhaps didn't get enough credit for it. Back then it was said that Top3 drivers on the grid were Schumacher, Alonso, Räikkönen and others were a long way behind, so Button was unfairly left in shade. I have to say that while in recent years Button has seemed to struggle in qualifying at times, then in that one-lap qualifying format we had in 03-05 suited him better and he looked quite impressive also in qualifying trim. But maybe without a championship winning car and a proper team-mate comparison we never saw, what he is really made of. I am also wondering if Button was ever considered by Ferrari/McLaren during the mid-noughties.

At Honda in 07-08 he either seemed to drop his head or struggle to adapt to the difficult car at times, so that's how he became somewhat questionable. Incredible to think that his F1 career almost seemed over after Honda pulled out... and we might have seen him winning only one race instead of many more he has got afterwards.

As for comparing him to the very best... certainly the inconsistencies of Hamilton currently help, because I think he would struggle to match current Vettel/Alonso on points, who relentlessly take everything out of the car every race weekend. But Button is consistent himself too, so he wouldn't be far behind. He has been better in qualifying this year compared to 09-10, when he at times failed to make it to Q3 in a car that was clearly capable of doing it. There is one more iffy aspect about Button's racecraft - race starts, where he may lose several positions due to being cautious. But once he is up to speed in race trim, he seems to be capable of lapping as fast as anyone, especially with the new tyres. That qualifying and race starts count for less in modern F1, helps too, as he has been able to make up many places on several occasions after being well down on lap 1 (Barcelona, Nürburgring, Spa, Monza).

[Mark]

fizzicist is probably too busy looking after his 2 year old son just now :) .

[DexDexter]

Come on now. :rolleyes:

:up: :up:

[Brown, Jon Brow]

He is certainly proving that he is a fantastic racer, there is no doubt about that. But once has to realise that Hamilton is having a poor season by his standard and is only 9 points, I think, behind Jenson in the championship. It's not a lot. Credit where credit is due to Jenson but once Hamilton gets himself together I can see Button being owned by him again. Jenson is a fantastic racer but I don't rate him on the same level as the top 3 and to do so I feel is getting completely carried away over a few good performances.

Button would have been 20 plus points ahead of Lewis if it wasn't for his two mechanical failures.

[The Black Knight]

Button would have been 20 plus points ahead of Lewis if it wasn't for his two mechanical failures.

Yeah, there are plenty of if's and but's on both sides. If McLaren had sent Hamilton out for one run in Monaco qualifying he may have been on Pole and run the race etc There has been bad luck on both sides but it's an especially off form season for Hamilton. This is blatantly obvious. He is clearly not at his best right now.

[Knock-on]

Well, at the risk of being accused of blowing my own trumpet.....Told you so!!!! :p :p :p

Seriously, it's a bit false comparing Jenson to Lewis as they are totally different drivers. It really is a case of Senna vs Prost at McLaren.

Jenson will always be precise and pick up good points and Lewis will always be more of a true racer pushing the limits. They are not mutually exclusive but both have excellent qualities and make up the strongest pairing on the grid even.

Perhaps some of the other teams will realise that rather than employ a Lap Dog who defers to their #1 driver like Massa did for Alonso at the weekend, perhaps it's better to have two drivers that compliment each other and cover all bases. Jenson and Lewis are the Ying and Yang that make up a perfect pairing.

[Dave B]

I said some time back that Lewis is the one you'd pay to watch, but Jenson is the one you'd pay to drive for you.

I compared them to a latter-day Senna and Prost: one is spectacular and blindlingly quick, a megastar on and off the track, but prone to mistakes and lapses of judgement. The other sometimes fails to even register on the radar until you look at the timing screens and realise that he's quietly been getting on with the job and bringing home the trophies.

For a team like McLaren they balance each other out perfectly.

[Mia 01]

Last day Jenson was beating Lewis with his own veapons in every aspect.

The walls are very close to the track in Singapore!

[Knock-on]

I'm sure Mia is a secret agent using this forum to communicate to her devious network of spy's in Code ;)


"Lewis, the time runs vertical in July

Potatoes never take the air when cold"

[wedge]

My impression hasn't changed.

In a good car Button can be great but the difference is that in a bad car Button will trail Hamilton.

This year's McLaren is a damn good car but handicapped by not being aero efficient and that is partly down to the rear wing set up and DRS. A large rear wing will give you more DF and more drag but it won't shed it better than a smaller wing via DRS and hence the prominent vapour trails AKA vortices.

TBH I was surprised by McLaren's aero package for Monza. No wonder he had massive confidence to go round Schumi on the outside of Ascari.

[ioan]

Yeah, there are plenty of if's and but's on both sides.

Fully agree, on one side mechanical failures on the other side brain failures.

[steveaki13]

I said some time back that Lewis is the one you'd pay to watch, but Jenson is the one you'd pay to drive for you.

I compared them to a latter-day Senna and Prost: one is spectacular and blindlingly quick, a megastar on and off the track, but prone to mistakes and lapses of judgement. The other sometimes fails to even register on the radar until you look at the timing screens and realise that he's quietly been getting on with the job and bringing home the trophies.

For a team like McLaren they balance each other out perfectly.

Yep Agree Dave

[SGWilko]

I'm sure Mia is a secret agent using this forum to communicate to her devious network of spy's in Code ;)


"Lewis, the time runs vertical in July

Potatoes never take the air when cold"

:rotflmao:

The bycicle is shining on my knee several rotations per banana sprocket....

[wedge]

I said some time back that Lewis is the one you'd pay to watch, but Jenson is the one you'd pay to drive for you.

I compared them to a latter-day Senna and Prost: one is spectacular and blindlingly quick, a megastar on and off the track, but prone to mistakes and lapses of judgement. The other sometimes fails to even register on the radar until you look at the timing screens and realise that he's quietly been getting on with the job and bringing home the trophies.

For a team like McLaren they balance each other out perfectly.

Button reminds me more of Mansell. Not an all time great IMHO but one of those in those drivers in the shadows of greatness lacking an extra ingredient. As I said, in the right car Button is sublime but like Mansell moaning about understeer, Button moans about not getting tyre temperature when the likes of Barrichello and Hamilton were/are having no such problem.

If a car needs serious development work Button would guarantee you points but a Hamilton would give the team a huge morale boost.

[Allyc85]

I do have to admit that having been a Button fan since his test shoot out for the Williams seat I do feel quite smug now :D

Read so much crap about him over the years, but just knew that given the right car he is pretty much as good as anyone. This of course is his down fall and it can be pretty frustrating to hear him moan about the balance AGAIN, but wins like at Canada soon make up for that!

I do remember being at Spa in 2007 when some Germans in full Micheal Schumacher gear told me that "Jenson Button is going to the cats!" How I laughed!

[Koz]

fizzicist is probably too busy looking after his 2 year old son just now :) .

So when he comes back, after a year (or more) away from the forum, all that repressed Jensen-love will flow out and destroy us all??? :eek:

[wedge]

I do have to admit that having been a Button fan since his test shoot out for the Williams seat I do feel quite smug now :D

Read so much crap about him over the years, but just knew that given the right car he is pretty much as good as anyone. This of course is his down fall and it can be pretty frustrating to hear him moan about the balance AGAIN, but wins like at Canada soon make up for that!

I do remember being at Spa in 2007 when some Germans in full Micheal Schumacher gear told me that "Jenson Button is going to the cats!" How I laughed!

To some extent there are truth to those criticisms. Button can fustrate me whereas Mansell makes up for it with his overtakes - best example being Mexico 1989/90 where Prost came from nowhere to win, Mansell falls asleep and regains second from Berger.

Then again its hard to choose between a solid drive and recovering from a donkey moment and the two probably balance each other out results wise :)

[Knock-on]

I do have to admit that having been a Button fan since his test shoot out for the Williams seat I do feel quite smug now :D



Yep, I remember you were one on the faithful in the face of all the detractors.

Nice feeling isn't it. :D

Best team in the world with the best pairing (although I do still rate Lewis as the better driver). When McLaren get the car, we will be unstoppable :D

[Mia 01]

Yep, I remember you were one on the faithful in the face of all the detractors.

Nice feeling isn't it. :D

Best team in the world with the best pairing (although I do still rate Lewis as the better driver). When McLaren get the car, we will be unstoppable :D

They will need an uber car, and even so I´m not so sure Jenson can do it.

[Mia 01]

I think the title is already sewn up this season and most teams will be looking towards 2012 now. I doubt Mclaren and Ferrari will be releasing any major updates in the last few races if they have any sense.

You say so, then my statement will be valid to next year to, if you get the drift.

[Daniel]

I'm sure Mia is a secret agent using this forum to communicate to her devious network of spy's in Code ;)


"Lewis, the time runs vertical in July

Potatoes never take the air when cold"

The red bean farts quietly in the September breeze *taps nose thusly and winks at KNockie*

[Knock-on]

Daniel winking at me <shudders>

:D

[SGWilko]

Daniel winking at me <shudders>

:D

Getcha coat......... :laugh:

[Cooper_S]

I've always had a soft spot for Jenson ever since his debut at BMW.Williams... he made some poor choices in the past but has matured well and is reaping the benifit of that maturity.

Lewis is a different kind of driver, I have always felt he get his kick not by winning races but by beating everyone else and he is more effected by seeing Vettel rack up more wins/championships than him... Jenson just wants to race and win races... it is still fun for him....

I think Jenson can surpass Lewis at McLaren, Lewis if not careful will self destruct and jump ship.

[Allyc85]

Yep, I remember you were one on the faithful in the face of all the detractors.

Nice feeling isn't it. :D

Best team in the world with the best pairing (although I do still rate Lewis as the better driver). When McLaren get the car, we will be unstoppable :D

Its a great feeling, infact I think it makes the wins and the 2009 Championship even more sweeter :D

[Knock-on]

Its a great feeling, infact I think it makes the wins and the 2009 Championship even more sweeter :D

And then they still say it was a fluke :laugh:

I will have to search back to "The Most Overated Driver of all Time" thread. I think that was the one :laugh:

To coin one of my old ones...... Egg and Faces :D

[Brown, Jon Brow]

And then they still say it was a fluke :laugh:

I will have to search back to "The Most Overated Driver of all Time" thread. I think that was the one :laugh:

To coin one of my old ones...... Egg and Faces :D


An interesting post from Ioan back in a 'rank the drivers' from about 4 seasons ago.


1) Raikkonen
2) Massa
3) Heidfeld
4) Alonso
5) Vettel
6) Rosberg
7) Kovalainen
8) Sutil
9) Kubica
10) Hamilton
11) Schumacher
12) Sato

Button not even in the top 12 and behind great drivers like Sato, Sutil and Kovalainen.

[Dave B]

An interesting post from Ioan back in a 'rank the drivers' from about 4 seasons ago.



Button not even in the top 12 and behind great drivers like Sato, Sutil and Kovalainen.

That's a strange list!

[wedge]

And then they still say it was a fluke :laugh:

I will have to search back to "The Most Overated Driver of all Time" thread. I think that was the one :laugh:

To coin one of my old ones...... Egg and Faces :D

I still stand by it.

Mansell is my all time hero and his detractors would say the same of 1992 - an valid and acceptable argument.

[Zico]

I've always liked Jenson but didn't believe he was quite as good as he is now proving to be. Not the greatest of qualifiers but his strategic mind and wet race performance often more than makes up for it. Lewis is ultimately quicker but could learn a thing or two from him over race distance..

[tfp]

I've always liked Jenson but didn't believe he was quite as good as he is now proving to be. Not the greatest of qualifiers but his strategic mind and wet race performance often more than makes up for it. Lewis is ultimately quicker but could learn a thing or two from him over race distance..

+1 :up: I agree with wedge aswel, Mansell is another one of the all time greats.

[Rollo]

From the Old Forums:

Best Driver in F1... - Motorsport.com Forums (http://forums.motorsport.com/showthread.php?p=850740&highlight=Button#post850740)


Originally Posted by Rollo - 26th April 2005

Quite frankly I don't think Webber has a WDC in him. He's probably as good as Gerhard Berger was or even DC. Webber would make a solid number 2 behind the champion.
I think the only drivers out there who are capable of taking home a title are Rakka, Alonso, Button and maybe even Montoya (notwithstanding MS who is the best driver the world has ever seen).


Since 2005:
Rakka - check
Alonso - check - TWICE
Button - check
Montoya - Ok, I blew this one - Montoya proved to be a little too volatile for F1 and left in a giant huff.

Bear in mind that in 2005, both Vettel and Hamilton were still in F3.

I still don't think that Webber has a WDC in him. History has shown that he has made a solid number 2 behind the champion though.

[CaptainRaiden]

I think people are jumping on the bandwagon a bit too quick to be honest. This is a disastrous year for Lewis, and yes, Jenson has had some good and brilliant races this season, often capitalizing on Lewis' brain farts or misfortunes. But on pure pace, he's still a bit behind.

There are races like Canada, but there are also races like Nurburgring where Lewis pretty much steamrolls everyone else and Jenson is nowhere to be seen in the same car, confused as to why he was THAT slow. Yeah, he had a mechanical failure in that race, but he wasn't doing much until that point. Lewis has never been beaten on raw pace by Jenson like that in normal conditions, without any incidents.

Once Lewis gets his head together I don't see Button troubling him much TBH.

[Big Ben]

ok, so I'm not sure what exactly did sainty say about Button and how high did those praises rose (I usually gave up after the first couple of lines about metaphysics and stuff) but while I admit underrating button I still feel Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton are better than him. Hamilton is having quite a bad year and makes him look better... but he's there taking advantage of LH's bad form so thumbs up for him

[CaptainRaiden]

Well, well, well, how the tables have turned on "Mr. Smooth intelligent racer".

[Dave B]

Well, well, well, how the tables have turned on "Mr. Smooth intelligent racer".
Yes... he's only won the same amount of races this year as Alonso, Vettel, or his own team mate Hamilton. Terrible, isn't he?

[CaptainRaiden]

Yes... he's only won the same amount of races this year as Alonso, Vettel, or his own team mate Hamilton. Terrible, isn't he?


1. L. Hamilton 88 - Mclaren Mercedes
2. F. Alonso 86
3. S. Vettel 85
4. M. Webber 79
5. N. Rosberg 67
6. K. Raikkonen 55
7. R. Grosjean 53
8. J. Button 45 - Mclaren Mercedes

Say what again?

[SGWilko]

Well, well, well, how the tables have turned on "Mr. Smooth intelligent racer".

He is still smooth and intelligent in his racing approach - it is just that the tyres do not lend themselves to that style. He needs to adapt that style if he can, butm given this has been his achilles heel, I wont hold my breath.

What is really worrying, is that the race started off with a hot track, and that should have suited JB.

[airshifter]

He is still smooth and intelligent in his racing approach - it is just that the tyres do not lend themselves to that style. He needs to adapt that style if he can, butm given this has been his achilles heel, I wont hold my breath.

What is really worrying, is that the race started off with a hot track, and that should have suited JB.

I actually thought the new tires would turn the tables towards favoring Jenson over Lewis, but it seems the opposite has happened. It could just be that Lewis has upped his game this year, as he was often his own worst enemy in seasons past.

I've never been a huge fan of Jenson but never disliked him either. It's a shame to see him struggle at certain races, hopefully he will bounce back to his old form.

[jens]

Well, only about half of Hamilton's points... Button must now know, how did Kovalainen feel at McLaren... Shows, how incredible this season has been and how each season catches some drivers out with regulations changes. Now it is Button's turn.

F1 can have unexpected developments and Button's situation is unusual. Who would have thought Mr Consistent himself would become badoeresque?! Because that's what you can say, when your team-mate wins and you are 16th. Looking at his career, even when Button hasn't been very fast, he has at least been able to bring home solid results. This has been his trademark racing style. Current form is by far the worst Button has been performing in his career, even Benetton 2001 was much better. This should say it all.

I'm wondering, what does McLaren now think about the new 3-year-deal they signed last year. Sure Button will turn it around and no-one saw this coming. But still, when this contract was signed, McLaren and everyone else was convinced in Button's ultimate consistency - a driver, who can salvage decent points even on bad days. But now they are seeing that not in all circumstances he is capable of doing that...

[wedge]

Yes... he's only won the same amount of races this year as Alonso, Vettel, or his own team mate Hamilton. Terrible, isn't he?

Said it before and I'll say it again:


In a good car Button can be great but the difference is that in a bad car Button will trail Hamilton.

The curious case of Jenson Button: Just why has Button become undone? | Features & Experts | Sky Sports Formula 1 (http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/22058/7808830/Just-why-has-Button-become-undone-)

[Hawkmoon]

Said it before and I'll say it again:

In a good car Button can be great but the difference is that in a bad car Button will trail Hamilton

The curious case of Jenson Button: Just why has Button become undone? | Features & Experts | Sky Sports Formula 1 (http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/22058/7808830/Just-why-has-Button-become-undone-)

The only problem with this is that the McLaren isn't a bad car. On average, over the course of the season so far, I'd say it's in fact been the best car out there. Even when it wasn't great it was still near the front, in Hamilton's hands at least. Ferrari, Red Bull, Mercedes and Renault have all had races where they struggled to make the top 10. Hamilton has put that car, on average, on the best starting position of any driver on the grid. Hamilton's good but he's not that good that he can take a truly bad car and out-qualify the entire grid.

I think there's something else wrong with Button at the moment and it's probably something as simple as he can't get his car balanced on these tyres. He's often been on the radio complaining of a lack of grip or too much over steer or under steer. That sounds like an unbalanced car to me. I'm not a Button fan. Even though he's impressed me during his time at McLaren I still think he's the weakest world champion since Villeneuve (as much as any world champion can be considered weak). I do think he'll sort things out sooner rather than later as he's a good driver and, by all apearances, a smart one at that.

[wedge]

The only problem with this is that the McLaren isn't a bad car.

Substitute 'bad car' for 'struggling' with the car and the problem remains the same - adapting to the car.

Button is too defined by his smooth driving style. Although he excels with it, it is a narrow window to work with.

Hamilton is aggressive - it has its disadvantages but it also allows him to be able to adapt to the car.

[The Black Knight]

How the tables have turned on this one. Button is nowhere near Hammy at the moment. He is getting pulverized by his teammate over the past 6 races. Clearly Jenson is not comfortable with the car or tyres. Last year when he beat Hamilton it was because Hamilton was having an off year. He didn't put in the work and had personal issues going on. Button is putting the work in this year still and now that Hamilton has found his feet again and putting in the work he really is demolishing Jenson. It kinda just goes to show really that people got a bit carried away with Jenson last year and lost perspective on what kind of driver he is. I'm sure Jenson will regain his form again soon but he is being completely destroyed right now.

That's what separates the greats from the rest - those that can drive around their issues. Hamilton has shown that he now knows how to look after his tyres and can adapt to the situation at hand, but Button, Mr. Smooth, hasn't been able to adapt to tyres that should really, based upon what we know of them, suit his style a lot more than it suits Hamilton's. By contrast Jenson has been eating his tyres. That's what separates the greats from the rest - those that can adapt and those that can't.

[Big Ben]

How the tables have turned on this one. Button is nowhere near Hammy at the moment. He is getting pulverized by his teammate over the past 6 races. Clearly Jenson is not comfortable with the car or tyres. Last year when he beat Hamilton it was because Hamilton was having an off year. He didn't put in the work and had personal issues going on. Button is putting the work in this year still and now that Hamilton has found his feet again and putting in the work he really is demolishing Jenson. It kinda just goes to show really that people got a bit carried away with Jenson last year and lost perspective on what kind of driver he is. I'm sure Jenson will regain his form again soon but he is being completely destroyed right now.

That's what separates the greats from the rest - those that can drive around their issues. Hamilton has shown that he now knows how to look after his tyres and can adapt to the situation at hand, but Button, Mr. Smooth, hasn't been able to adapt to tyres that should really, based upon what we know of them, suit his style a lot more than it suits Hamilton's. By contrast Jenson has been eating his tyres. That's what separates the greats from the rest - those that can adapt and those that can't.

Just like that? All excuses go for one and none is good for the other? So the greats have off years because they don't put in the work and have problem with the girlfriends and are beaten by the non-greats? Maybe Button's great too but he's sad this year. Let me just go for a week to work and not put in the work because of personal issues and see how great they think I am. I am going to be one great separated from my job.

[wedge]

Jenson has had many slumps in the past including his championship year but he tends to bounce back towards the end of the season.

Not really.

Far too reliant on car development than other drivers.

2004 - Started strong as the second best team but struggled to retain it when McLaren and Williams bounced back in the second half of the year.

2007 - in the first half of that year it was Barrichello who got the best out of the car then the pendulum swung to Button when Honda improved the handling of the car.

2009 - Brawn lost their advantage and Button was struggling playing catch up. Far too compromised for my liking in quali. A true great driver would not have been as compromised as Button was.

2010 - McLaren running out of steam competing with RBR with car development and Button faded in the final third or so of the season whereas Hamilton maximised the car.

[jens]

Not really.

Far too reliant on car development than other drivers.

2004 - Started strong as the second best team but struggled to retain it when McLaren and Williams bounced back in the second half of the year.


Really? He was getting podiums in the second half of the 2004 season as well. Italy, China, Japan. Actually I would say it was his joint best season in F1 together with 2011.

[wedge]

Really? He was getting podiums in the second half of the 2004 season as well. Italy, China, Japan. Actually I would say it was his joint best season in F1 together with 2011.

But Kimi and JPM got wins.

[Mia 01]

Jenson will be back!!

Jenson will once moore beat Lewis in the standings when the counting starts.

[The Black Knight]

Not really.

Far too reliant on car development than other drivers.

2004 - Started strong as the second best team but struggled to retain it when McLaren and Williams bounced back in the second half of the year.

2007 - in the first half of that year it was Barrichello who got the best out of the car then the pendulum swung to Button when Honda improved the handling of the car.

2009 - Brawn lost their advantage and Button was struggling playing catch up. Far too compromised for my liking in quali. A true great driver would not have been as compromised as Button was.

2010 - McLaren running out of steam competing with RBR with car development and Button faded in the final third or so of the season whereas Hamilton maximised the car.

You've just summed up what I've always thought and seen about Jenson. There's his achilles heel which is what separates the brilliant drivers from the truly great ones. We all know Hamilton had a bad year last year by his standards but he still outqualified Jenson more often than not. When Jenson has the car underneath him he can use it and be almost as quick as anyone else but when the car isn't 100% he has not got the ability to drive around it like Schumacher, Senna, Alonso - drivers of those calibre. Jenson just isn't there and was made look much better last year than he really is. But there is no doubting he's a brilliant driver and he has shown last year in particular that he was much better than a lot of people previously gave him credit, he just doesn't walk with the greats, in my opinion.

[CaptainRaiden]

Jenson will be back!!

Jenson will once moore beat Lewis in the standings when the counting starts.

The fortune teller strikes again.

And when does the "counting start"? :confused:

Right now, for Button to even overhaul Lewis in points, he would have to win two races and Lewis to have a DNF in both.

And for a guy who has trouble even getting into Q3, HIGHLY unlikely.

[Mia 01]

The little rosy bubble of hes will evetually burst again.

[The Black Knight]

The little rosy bubble of hes will evetually burst again.

I love your posts. I read them for the humor rather than content. Good stuff ;)

[Bagwan]

The little rosy bubble of hes will evetually burst again.

You're right about that , Mia .
Don't let them tell you otherwise .

He's a great driver .
But his bubble does have a habit of bursting now and then .

[BDunnell]

What driver doesn't hit misfortune every now and then? Lewis had it last season for a period and appeared to make alot of unforced errors rather than suffering due to setup and the team. This season Jenson has hit a sticky period to which he doesn't yet know whether its himself or the car (according to his last interview). Thats racing, but I repeat, these guys are very good at what they do and all have off days.

I almost get fed up of the endless, often quite sallow, opinions about drivers, to be honest, now that so many views can be found flying around the internet courtesy of people whose opinions I have been given little or no reason to respect. They lead me to wonder how those expressing them can ever just enjoy the competition for what it is.

[Bagwan]

What driver doesn't hit misfortune every now and then? Lewis had it last season for a period and appeared to make alot of unforced errors rather than suffering due to setup and the team. This season Jenson has hit a sticky period to which he doesn't yet know whether its himself or the car (according to his last interview). Thats racing, but I repeat, these guys are very good at what they do and all have off days.

Mia was reminding you all of exactly that .

[airshifter]

I almost get fed up of the endless, often quite sallow, opinions about drivers, to be honest, now that so many views can be found flying around the internet courtesy of people whose opinions I have been given little or no reason to respect. They lead me to wonder how those expressing them can ever just enjoy the competition for what it is.

Well you know how the internet gets. We have all these crap drivers at the leading edge of Formula 1, which is the leading edge of all road racing. It's not as if any of them has any real talent or something! :laugh:

If we took the worst driver in F1 he would probably perform well above a level that most in motorsport could even hope to reach one day. I think people forget how good they are, and how competitive the sport is. A minor matter of setup or car preferences can make or break many races. Combined with the drivers being human, it's obvious that even the best will have some off races or seasons.

[wedge]

I almost get fed up of the endless, often quite sallow, opinions about drivers, to be honest, now that so many views can be found flying around the internet courtesy of people whose opinions I have been given little or no reason to respect. They lead me to wonder how those expressing them can ever just enjoy the competition for what it is.


Well you know how the internet gets. We have all these crap drivers at the leading edge of Formula 1, which is the leading edge of all road racing. It's not as if any of them has any real talent or something! :laugh:

If we took the worst driver in F1 he would probably perform well above a level that most in motorsport could even hope to reach one day. I think people forget how good they are, and how competitive the sport is. A minor matter of setup or car preferences can make or break many races. Combined with the drivers being human, it's obvious that even the best will have some off races or seasons.

There are differing levels of ability and even in the upper echelons.

Button is simply not a great driver but he's not far off either.

When Button wins a race and post-Australian GP was a perfection demonstration how some people jump on a bandwagon lauding JB as a 'great'.


What driver doesn't hit misfortune every now and then? Lewis had it last season for a period and appeared to make alot of unforced errors rather than suffering due to setup and the team. This season Jenson has hit a sticky period to which he doesn't yet know whether its himself or the car (according to his last interview). Thats racing, but I repeat, these guys are very good at what they do and all have off days.

2006 - struggles to generate heat into tyres

2009 - struggles to generate heat into tyres

2012 - struggles to generate heat into tyres

Sticky period, you say? More like a significant flaw that's been cruelly exposed.

[CaptainRaiden]

The little rosy bubble of hes will evetually burst again.


You're right about that , Mia .
Don't let them tell you otherwise .

He's a great driver .
But his bubble does have a habit of bursting now and then .

You two do realize that the only years Lewis was not in title contention were 2009 and 2011, since his debut in 2007, right? 2009 was the crappiest Mclaren car in recent times, and he still won two races. The only time this "bubble" burst was in 2011, his worst season to-date, and he still managed 3 wins, equal to Button.

Even this year, the only brain-farts and buffoonery is courtesy of Mclaren's pit crew. Lewis hasn't put a foot wrong and is incredibly consistent!

Try and look past the Hamilton hater smokescreen.

[F1boat]

Lewis is a very good driver. So are Jenson, Fernando and Seb. We should be happy that we have so amazingly talented grid!

[airshifter]

There are differing levels of ability and even in the upper echelons.

Button is simply not a great driver but he's not far off either.

When Button wins a race and post-Australian GP was a perfection demonstration how some people jump on a bandwagon lauding JB as a 'great'.



2006 - struggles to generate heat into tyres

2009 - struggles to generate heat into tyres

2012 - struggles to generate heat into tyres

Sticky period, you say? More like a significant flaw that's been cruelly exposed.

I can certainly agree Button is overall not a "great" driver. But the significant flaw that you claim leads me to think you're somewhat an anti fan of his, being that he more often than not lands in the upper half of the WDC standings. In the same car his average finish in the WDC standings is higher than that of Hamilton's. If being slightly better on average than Hamilton is a "significant flaw" than I can agree. But it's not as if he is a bottom feeder by any means.

[Bagwan]

Her response to CaptainRaiden was to suggest Jenson will bounce back and Lewis will soon hit more misfortune in the form of having his 'rosy bubble bursting'. Her flurry of anti Hamilton comments across multiple threads also highlight that the comment was less than constructive. I suggested all drivers have off days/periods and that is not what Mia was suggesting Bagwan at all in this context, she was just highlighting her hopes for her least favourite driver.

With all due respect , you must take into context that she was replying after being ridiculed for saying Jensen would bounce back .
Her "rosy bubble" comment , in a way , is complimentary about his current position , but she , as I , looking at his history as recently as last year , sees Lewis to be fast , but fragile .

[Bagwan]

You two do realize that the only years Lewis was not in title contention were 2009 and 2011, since his debut in 2007, right? 2009 was the crappiest Mclaren car in recent times, and he still won two races. The only time this "bubble" burst was in 2011, his worst season to-date, and he still managed 3 wins, equal to Button.

Even this year, the only brain-farts and buffoonery is courtesy of Mclaren's pit crew. Lewis hasn't put a foot wrong and is incredibly consistent!

Try and look past the Hamilton hater smokescreen.

He's fast , and right now he has a car that really suits him .
It's gotta be great to be a Lewis fan right now .

But , last year must have really sucked .

[jens]

Hamilton and Button have been team-mates for almost 2.5 years by now. The overall point-score over that period at the moment is 755-729. With Button's recent serious issues Hamilton has sprinted ahead, but as you see, overall it is still pretty close.

[The Black Knight]

Hamilton and Button have been team-mates for almost 2.5 years by now. The overall point-score over that period at the moment is 755-729. With Button's recent serious issues Hamilton has sprinted ahead, but as you see, overall it is still pretty close.

Indeed and if Lewis has another season like last one, which I doubt very much he will, then we will have proof that he is flawed and will probably never be consistent over multiple seasons. I can't really see that happening however, as it seems like he has learned his lesson, but time will tell.

It might be close now on overall points across 3 seasons, but if Lewis continues the way he is going I really can't imagine Jenson being able to stay in touch, but never say never. I wish no ill to Jenson I simply don't believe him to be on the same level as Lewis and that's an opinion I have held throughout Lewis bad run of form last year that should he bounce back, Jenson would be nowhere and that is currently the case. It may not be in two months though. Clearly Jenson is better than his previous run of form suggests. We'll see in time :)

[wedge]

I think you've misunderstood my point here somewhat. I think all drivers hit sticky periods, but my point is some find it harder to get out of theirs.

All too easy to say sticky period and use it as an excuse.

One needs to analyse the sticky periods.


I can certainly agree Button is overall not a "great" driver. But the significant flaw that you claim leads me to think you're somewhat an anti fan of his

Not at all. I am an admirer.

All drivers are flawed to an extent, in the same way one rates drivers.

If Button isn't a great, then why is it? Generally the case is that there's a significant flaw. Does acknowledging a flaw make me an anti-fan/hater? No. It is an issue that frustrates.

[henners88]

[quote="Bagwan"]
On that criteria all the top drivers can be considered fragile because all have had periods out of this highly amusing 'rosy bubble'. Vettel once had the nickname of 'crash kid' for the sheer amount of accidents he was involved in during his Toro Rosso days, also highlighted for 3 notable incidents during 2010. Even with this in mind he is still applauded as one of the best drivers on the grid. Fernando is known for his speed and consistency yet nobody would dare accuse him of being fragile regardless of his insecurities within teams in the past. Button has had many periods during his career where he just looks like he has fallen out of love with the sport. Lewis had 4 or 5 bad races last year which was disappointing for us fans but why dwell on such things and try and label this within his character? Lewis is no more fragile than any of his competitors as far as I am concerned and I have seen absolutely no evidence to support such a claim.

[Bagwan]

Again , with all due respect , Hamilton may not be the most fragile (Felipe comes to mind there) , but is likely the most work , in terms of keeping his boat upright .
Last year alone , he was wobbled by breaking up with the squeeze , and by a notable court case , and a certain magnetism to that red Brazilian .
When he's faced with a microphone , they've had to have "handlers" speak for him many times , as they cannot trust what he might come out with , in the heat of the moment .

Without a doubt , in my opinion , he's one of the fastest out there , but , prone to "bursting" at times , he's also the most controversial driver on the grid , and this doesn't help him go fast .

To stay on topic , Button , in contrast , seems to mesh and work well with the team , and although at sea presently , gives the impression he's quietly working on it to solve the issue .

[Bagwan]

Jenson doesn't tend to vent on the team .
Hamilton does .
Jenson doesn't tend to vent at the FIA .
Hamilton does .

Venting doesn't help anyone in either case .

You had better be damn fast if you're going to risk pi$$ing your team with a "What the hell happened there , guys ?" or the FIA , with a "Maybe it's because I'm black ." comment .

But , hey , he's having a good year , so maybe a leopard can change his spots from one year to the next , but I think he had better stay fast , because he's a lot of work .

[tfp]

I may be starting a :bomb: by saying this, but...Could the car be to blame...?
Last year it was Hamilton to struggle, this year it is Jenson. One of the drivers of the team has struggled this season and last with the car. Maybe they are just developing a car suited to one driver? I'm not sure how different, if at all, their set ups are, but it seems when one gets the best out of the car, the other doesnt!

Maybe I'm completely wrong, I'm just throwing a thought out there :)

[airshifter]

Not at all. I am an admirer.

All drivers are flawed to an extent, in the same way one rates drivers.

If Button isn't a great, then why is it? Generally the case is that there's a significant flaw. Does acknowledging a flaw make me an anti-fan/hater? No. It is an issue that frustrates.

Apologies for making an assumption based on your comments. If you are finding flaws in all drivers then I can somewhaunderstand your statements. But if, as pointed out several posts ago, Jenson is only 26 total points behind Hamilton since joining the team, does this make Lewis significantly flawed as well? Many consider Lewis a great driver, and I would tend to think that if Jenson is so close in points in equal cars any person doing so would have to rate Jenson at least close to great.

[ArrowsFA1]

Is there, or has there ever been, a driver who isn't flawed in some way at some point in their career? They're all human, like the rest of us, after all :s mokin:

[The Black Knight]

Jenson doesn't tend to vent on the team .
Hamilton does .
Jenson doesn't tend to vent at the FIA .
Hamilton does .

Venting doesn't help anyone in either case .

You had better be damn fast if you're going to risk pi$$ing your team with a "What the hell happened there , guys ?" or the FIA , with a "Maybe it's because I'm black ." comment .

But , hey , he's having a good year , so maybe a leopard can change his spots from one year to the next , but I think he had better stay fast , because he's a lot of work .

If you're going to quote, quote accurately. He said "What happened there guys?" Not "What the hell happened there, guys?" Misquoting a driver damages your entire argument and makes you look like an idiot.

I can't see anything wrong with a driver querying why he was delayed in a pit stop. In fact, I'd be worried if he didn't, as it would show he really didn't care. Lewis shows passion and that he cares about his racing. You misconstrue this as him throwing the toys out of the pram. I'm sure Hamilton isn't the only driver to ever ask a team why he lost a few seconds in a pit stop over the radio.

[SGWilko]

Jenson doesn't tend to vent on the team .
Hamilton does .
Jenson doesn't tend to vent at the FIA .
Hamilton does .

Venting doesn't help anyone in either case .

You had better be damn fast if you're going to risk pi$$ing your team with a "What the hell happened there , guys ?" or the FIA , with a "Maybe it's because I'm black ." comment .

But , hey , he's having a good year , so maybe a leopard can change his spots from one year to the next , but I think he had better stay fast , because he's a lot of work .

Hell hath no fury like a Baggy scorned....

[wedge]

Jenson doesn't tend to vent on the team .
Hamilton does .
Jenson doesn't tend to vent at the FIA .
Hamilton does .

Venting doesn't help anyone in either case .

Jenson likes moaning over the radio about lack of grip and lack of tyre temperature in free practice and race day when his team mates are hardly suffering.

Are radio excerpts indicative? After all we are privy to and often heat of the moment exchange of information and dialogue.


Apologies for making an assumption based on your comments. If you are finding flaws in all drivers then I can somewhaunderstand your statements. But if, as pointed out several posts ago, Jenson is only 26 total points behind Hamilton since joining the team, does this make Lewis significantly flawed as well? Many consider Lewis a great driver, and I would tend to think that if Jenson is so close in points in equal cars any person doing so would have to rate Jenson at least close to great.

The 26 point deficit is not much of a surprise. JB is a high calibre driver. Good enough to punish Hamilton's off-season last year though so far Jenson has had the privilege of strong cars capable of winning races and challenging for WDC.

Put it this way had/if McLaren built an bad car as in 2009 who would struggle more? Would Jenson have won 2 races as Hamilton did in a crappy McLaren in 2009?

[Knock-on]

McLaren thinks it may have found a solution for Jenson Button's problems - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100515)

Hopefully McLaren have got to the bottom of Jensons problems.

[SGWilko]

McLaren thinks it may have found a solution for Jenson Button's problems - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100515)

Hopefully McLaren have got to the bottom of Jensons problems.

Was it the nut behind the wheel? ;)

[wedge]

I wonder why Button was so adamant that his problems is nothing to do with tyres yet further speculation points to it:


At the Spanish Grand Prix, he said over the team radio that he had problems getting the tyres to warm-up, especially on the hard compound.

The cars are sliding more this year because some aerodynamic aids have been banned. And in fact, he was misinterpreting the feeling - he was actually suffering from tyre over-heating.

So all the changes McLaren made for Saturday were aimed at curing the wrong problem - and made the problem they had worse.

For example, they changed to a different type of brake that has a higher operating temperature, in an attempt to get more heat into the tyres. But they needed the opposite.
BBC Sport - Jaime Alguersuari column: Valencia Grand Prix preview (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/18529174)

[SGWilko]

See your quote below, you've contradiced all that by quoting in post 102 above! :p


Heavy braking zones will cause more heat build up in the tyre carcass, and can add significantly to deg if your car is hard on the tyres generally.


Not really. Where did you get that idea from?

Some teams have been using trick hubs to try to retain heat because the heat transfer is minor as it will easily dissipate on acceleration/straights via cooling effect of the brake ducts.

Deg comes from "traction limited" ie. wheelspin. The rears are softer than the front therefore they are delicate and easy to overheat.

[wedge]

See your quote below, you've contradiced all that by quoting in post 102 above! :p

Hmmm...

*tries to save face*

Firstly, I mentioned Jaime's speculation!

*scratches head*

*strokes beard*

I was informed that brake temperature does bugger all to affect tyre temperature but I suppose I was too desperate to come off high and mighty and completely forgotten to take into account the temperature sensitivity of this year's Pirellis.

I suppose its like the tyre weaving thing. Some people including Brundle have said it doesn't work whereas Alonso has an aggressive weaving technique.


Of other teams are able with their current wheel and duct arrangement to alter tyre temperatures via heat radiated from the brakes, then this will be an easy modification to make to the car. However many other F1 Engineers suggest that they find little effect of brake temperatures altering tyre temperature, making the solution unattractive to them.

McLaren: Adjustable Rear Brake Ducts | Scarbsf1's Blog (http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2012/05/10/mclaren-adjustable-rear-brake-ducts/)

[Dave B]

Hopefully McLaren have got to the bottom of Jensons problems.
P4 in FP1 versus Hamilton's P8. Very early days but at least he's had a decent practice session for once.

[CaptainRaiden]

McLaren thinks it may have found a solution for Jenson Button's problems - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100515)

Hopefully McLaren have got to the bottom of Jensons problems.

I believe the technical explanation for the solution is "Copy Hamilton's setup!"

Button to begin weekend with Hamilton (http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/280225/button-to-begin-weekend-with-hamilton-s-setup/)

[AndyL]

I believe the technical explanation for the solution is "Copy Hamilton's setup!"

I think that's a misunderstanding of the situation. All year prior to Canada, both cars have used the same rear suspension geometry. In Canada, Hamilton's car had a new rear suspension, using different pick-up points on the gearbox casing, whereas Button chose to stick with the old suspension geometry. This race Button will use the same suspension geometry as Hamilton again. I think that's what was being referred to. It's a reversion to the normal situation after trying to do something different in Canada, not a departure from what has been done previously during the season.

The setup changes they think they've found to improve Button's performance compared to the races before Canada was described by Simon Roberts as very subtle.

[CaptainRaiden]

I think that's a misunderstanding of the situation. All year prior to Canada, both cars have used the same rear suspension geometry. In Canada, Hamilton's car had a new rear suspension, using different pick-up points on the gearbox casing, whereas Button chose to stick with the old suspension geometry. This race Button will use the same suspension geometry as Hamilton again. I think that's what was being referred to. It's a reversion to the normal situation after trying to do something different in Canada, not a departure from what has been done previously during the season.

That doesn't explain his form prior to Canada. He was pretty much crap in qualifying in Spain and Monaco, and crap in the race too. Canada was pretty much the worst performance of his career, and the different rear suspension makes sense there, but what about the 3 races before that?

[Knock-on]

All I know is that they hve been making the problem worse. They were making changes to fix a problem with heat in the tyres not realising they were going in the wrong direction.

[AndyL]

That doesn't explain his form prior to Canada. He was pretty much crap in qualifying in Spain and Monaco, and crap in the race too. Canada was pretty much the worst performance of his career, and the different rear suspension makes sense there, but what about the 3 races before that?

Well, they haven't said what they think was wrong with Button's set-up before Canada, other than to say it was something "very subtle". As I mentioned in the second paragraph of my previous post.

[Mia 01]

Finally it seems as Jenson have come to grips with the active suspension bits, about time.

I heard it on Viasat Motor today.

[airshifter]

All I know is that they hve been making the problem worse. They were making changes to fix a problem with heat in the tyres not realising they were going in the wrong direction.

I can't quite understand how they did this. With the amounts of data they gather, and the data transmitted from the car, how did they possibly not know if Jenson was within the optimum tire performance heat window?

[Knock-on]

I was confused as well mate but these tyres are a learning curve for everyone. I assume they were expecting the tyres to behave a certain way at a particular temperature but were moving away from where they needed to be in doing so.

[steveaki13]

Bad strategy again today. Despite all the chaos still was nowhere all day. How is that happening after last season????

[wedge]

Surprising considering he looked far happier than Lewis in Free Practice.

[spudrsca]

I hope that Mclaren have good updates for the next races.
They were the 4th or even 5th fastest cars this race as I don't rate the williams driver very highly.

RedBull and Lotus were much better, they were also behind Ferrari and I think Williams.

[Ranger]

Indeed, at the start of the season in Australia he looked brilliant... what happened?

[steveaki13]

Can't believe this is the same Button who was so brilliant last season and now he might be looking at the exit door. Although if Lewis leaves it will be almost certain that Button does. Can't see Mclaren getting in two new drivers.

[Alfa Fan]

Your Hamilton fanboyism is nauseating.

[jens]

Well, considering how people are keen on discussing about sacking every driver, who happens to underperform, what about Button? A few more races like these and there will be threads asking whether McLaren should sack Button and hire Di Resta or someone else instead.

[donKey jote]

Bring back PdlR :s ailor: :devil:

[Knock-on]

What is nauseating are your pathetic posts and flagrant trolling. Go away idiot

[donKey jote]

:eek: :p

[steveaki13]

Buttons poor run of races is now one race longer than Hamiltons slump in 2011. There were calls here suggesting McLaren might not offer Lewis a contract when discussed last year, but I expect Jenson to improve. Its clear he can't adapt at the same rate as Lewis in a similar situation, but I hope he finds something. I enjoy this pairing very much and long may it continue.

Me too

I think both on there day are two of the best

[F1boat]

Jenson's doing a Massa in these days. Who would have guessed after Oz...

[jens]

Jenson's doing a Massa in these days. Who would have guessed after Oz...

I personally think these ups-and-downs of established top drivers should give a new perspective about several drivers. For example Fisichella, who also started his 2005 season by winning in Australia, but then slipped backwards as well, although his slump was never as deep as is Button's currently. Fisi was often considered as being incapable of challenging for a title due to not being able to handle the pressure of being in a top team. But in reality perhaps he just happened to be at a wrong place at a wrong time and in a different year with a different car and regulations could have easily challenged or even won the WDC?

[AndyL]

I didn't think Button was so bad today... the main failing was the poor qualifying on Saturday. He got boxed off the start by the fast-starting Ferraris on new tyres and it was all uphill from there. Also lost several places by pitting right before the safety car. So his problems weren't all of his own doing.

[rjbetty]

I personally think these ups-and-downs of established top drivers should give a new perspective about several drivers. For example Fisichella, who also started his 2005 season by winning in Australia, but then slipped backwards as well, although his slump was never as deep as is Button's currently. Fisi was often considered as being incapable of challenging for a title due to not being able to handle the pressure of being in a top team. But in reality perhaps he just happened to be at a wrong place at a wrong time and in a different year with a different car and regulations could have easily challenged or even won the WDC?

I agree. I always felt Fisi was better than that. I can take Alonso being better than him, but I don't trust Flav...

[odykas]

It's time somebody pushes this.

http://images.drillspot.com/pimages/7158/715805_300.jpg

[The Black Knight]

Not quite sure why you feel the need to try and put me down, but I am entitled to support any driver I choose whether you like it or not. This is twice you've contributed calling me a fanboy since the end of the race yet I haven't discussed anything directly with you personally. Maybe you'd like to share you opinion on Buttons present situation rather than trying to label other posters with childish descriptions? :wave:

I wouldn't let it bother you Henners. I am a Hamilton fan boy as well. I got called the same as soon as I reacted to that idiotic move by Maldonado. Unfortunately, you'll always have guys that will jump on the bash Hamilton bandwagon as soon as they get the chance. I'm no fan of Alonso or Vettel (his one finger infuriates me) but I still appreciate their genius behind the wheel. I wasn't laughing yesterday after Vettel drove a controlled amazing race only to breakdown half way through. He deserved and had earned a win there, in my opinion. But you had guys like Garry Walker laughing at his misfortune. These people can't see beyond their own favorite driver and I feel sorry for them because they are missing out by not appreciating the quality throughout the field that we are witnessing in front of us today.

[CaptainRaiden]

If Mclaren had only one driver, and it was Button, judging by the last four races, people would think Mclaren is not even a midfield car.

He needs to up his game soon. He started Valencia with encouraging pace, right up until Q3 where he lost out big time. His race was quite ordinary.

[The Black Knight]

If Mclaren had only one driver, and it was Button, judging by the last four races, people would think Mclaren is not even a midfield car.

He needs to up his game soon. He started Valencia with encouraging pace, right up until Q3 where he lost out big time. His race was quite ordinary.

That has always been the issue with Jenson. Give him a car without issues and he'll be up there with the best of them. Give him a car with some issue he has to drive around and he can't do it.

[F1boat]

I wouldn't let it bother you Henners. I am a Hamilton fan boy as well. I got called the same as soon as I reacted to that idiotic move by Maldonado. Unfortunately, you'll always have guys that will jump on the bash Hamilton bandwagon as soon as they get the chance. I'm no fan of Alonso or Vettel (his one finger infuriates me) but I still appreciate their genius behind the wheel. I wasn't laughing yesterday after Vettel drove a controlled amazing race only to breakdown half way through. He deserved and had earned a win there, in my opinion. But you had guys like Garry Walker laughing at his misfortune. These people can't see beyond their own favorite driver and I feel sorry for them because they are missing out by not appreciating the quality throughout the field that we are witnessing in front of us today.

You are a great Hamilton fan buddy, but others are not like you and this makes people to dislike the driver... I personally think that he is very good, but like other drivers more. That's all.

[wedge]

Buttons poor run of races is now one race longer than Hamiltons slump in 2011. There were calls here suggesting McLaren might not offer Lewis a contract when discussed last year, but I expect Jenson to improve. Its clear he can't adapt at the same rate as Lewis in a similar situation, but I hope he finds something. I enjoy this pairing very much and long may it continue.

The difference between this and last year is that Button is having a serious slump whereas Hamilton was inconsistent last year.


You are a great Hamilton fan buddy, but others are not like you and this makes people to dislike the driver... I personally think that he is very good, but like other drivers more. That's all.

Is it possible to give constructive criticism and not be accused of being a fanboy?

[odykas]

That has always been the issue with Jenson. Give him a car without issues and he'll be up there with the best of them. Give him a car with some issue he has to drive around and he can't do it.

Exactly.

Imho, a great driver is not someone who has a great car (like MS in the past or Vettel in the previous years).
But the person who can drive a bad car well ;)

[Knock-on]

Is it possible to give constructive criticism and not be accused of being a fanboy?

After years on this forum, reading thousands of posts, I can honestly say that the answer to your question is 'no'.

[DexDexter]

Button's current form reminds me of Heikki's last season with Mclaren. He was (is) a genuinely good driver but was totally lost at sea while Lewis was winning races. I don't think it's about the team favouring one driver over another, it's something else, IMO it's perhaps related to Hamilton's driving style and the way he likes the car.

[truefan72]

That has always been the issue with Jenson. Give him a car without issues and he'll be up there with the best of them. Give him a car with some issue he has to drive around and he can't do it.

that's Button alright :up:

[odykas]

Mr boredom did it again :s nore:

[Roamy]

Button is leaving at the end of the year. He will have sub par cars compared to Lewis. Ferrari would be a good fit for button.

[steveaki13]

If, and its a big if. Button was to leave Mclaren. Which isn't certain given his brilliant year last year. Also he has won a race this year and if he won another and had a decent second half it could still be a reasonable season.
If he did leave I believe he could go to Ferrari or maybe a step down to a potentially improving team like Williams. He would just have to decided whether a Williams type move would be worth it or whether he may consider retiring.

Of course a move to Ferrari would be to good to turn down. A nearly always fast car and another chance at a title. Albeit not while Alonso is there probably.

[jens]

I think McLaren is too rational and calm to have a knee-jerk reaction and let Button go now. Remember, after 2008 they gave Kovalainen another chance as well.

[steveaki13]

I think McLaren is too rational and calm to have a knee-jerk reaction and let Button go now. Remember, after 2008 they gave Kovalainen another chance as well.


Yep I agree.

They are a team who judge of a wider time scale. Button would have been a championship contender for Mclaren just last year, if not for how dominant Vettel was.

He won the first race, the same as Lewis and has just struggled more than Lewis in a car, which now appears to have some issues.

As most have said before, When the car is not going that well, its Lewis whos out and out speed and skill let him get more out of the car than Jenson.

So given all that its a case of Mclaren need to give the drivers a better Car, than sack Jenson

[steveaki13]

Button has a contract at McLaren and won't be leaving anytime soon. Its clear Jenson is a team player and a solid points scorer when the car is right, so why would McLaren force him out? They have the best combination on the grid and just need to sort out their development. Lewis is doing the better job of late and it wasn't long ago people on here were suggesting Lewis would be sacked and Jenson running away with the title. Both drivers are very capable of pulling themselves out of trouble and I expect both to be sitting in McLarens in 2013.

I agree.

They are the prefect line up. And as I said above. The fact is Mclaren need to give them a better car. In a car that is a match for Red Bull and Ferrari, these two have a fair chance of bringing Mclaren a title. Lewis with his agressive speed and Jenson with solid performances and occasional wins.

Mclaren couldn't really get a stronger line up that works so well. Just give them the car.

Look back at Mclaren and they have made a lot of strong line ups. In my knowledge of F1 since the late 80s. Senna & Prost, Senna & Berger, Hakkinen & Coulthard, Coulthard & Kimi, Alonso & Hamilton and now Hamilton and Button.

No way would Mclaren split this combo yet.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Taking their starting positions into account I think Button had a better race than Hamilton yesterday. Lewis had a good first stint but after that he just seemed to go backwards.

[Garry Walker]

Taking their starting positions into account I think Button had a better race than Hamilton yesterday. Lewis had a good first stint but after that he just seemed to go backwards.

How many beers did you have before and during the race?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Hamilton - started 8th finished 8th
Button - started 16th finished 10th

And to be fair to Jenson he would have made it into Q2 if it wasn't far one of the Marussias pratting around in sector 3.

[steveaki13]

I think Button done a solid job yesterday, but shouldn't have Qualified 18th (16th) in the first place. Hamilton said he pushed 100% all day, but the car sadly is just slowing up round by round.

[wedge]

Hamilton - started 8th finished 8th
Button - started 16th finished 10th


What's that got to do with anything?

Are you suggesting JB was better than better than LH?

No. The McLaren was a top ten 10 car. LH was quicker but both were pretty much stuck doing 1m 36s in their final stint.

[The Black Knight]

Button wants to see out his career at McLaren so I doubt he'll be leaving and I don't think McLaren want him to elave so this is a non argument really. What we have really seen this year is that Button can't adapt if the car doesn't suit his needs and it just confirms for me what I've always thought of him, a really good driver given the car that works well but he will never walk with the greats and is not on the same level as Hammy. I am beginning to wonder however, if Hamilton should leave McLaren. It has been 13 years since McLaren won a constructors championship and since then they have really only produced two proper championship winning cars. There is only so much a driver can do with the equipment he has got but I feel that for his own careers sake that should Hamilton stay at McLaren, they may produce the odd championship winning car here and there but they won't ever be able to do it consistently like RBR have over the past two and a half years. So Lews would finish his career with at best two championships with McLaren and I can see Seb and Alonso finishing with 4 each easily because Hammy hasn't been able to challenge them due to McLaren not providing him wiht a consistent championship winning car. McLaren seem to be the nearly men every year.

[Mia 01]

Button fits McLarens image, he wont leave anytime soon. Yes, he has a slump in form for the last five races but that will change.
The biggest problem for the team is their cars.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

What's that got to do with anything?

Are you suggesting JB was better than better than LH?

No. The McLaren was a top ten 10 car. LH was quicker but both were pretty much stuck doing 1m 36s in their final stint.

I think Lewis might have had a better result if he hadn't bothered trying to race Alonso. It was good for the crowds but the time he lost out him back into traffic when he eventually made his pit-stop.

[The Black Knight]

I think Lewis might have had a better result if he hadn't bothered trying to race Alonso. It was good for the crowds but the time he lost out him back into traffic when he eventually made his pit-stop.

Lewis was so slow towards the end that it wouldn't have really made any difference and he wasn't quick on the soft tyres either so he would have finished where he ended up either way.

[wedge]

Lewis was so slow towards the end that it wouldn't have really made any difference and he wasn't quick on the soft tyres either so he would have finished where he ended up either way.

Exactly. Grosjean was a second quicker than Hamilton in the last stint.