Driver and Donkey of the race - Monza 2011

[Dave B]

Driver must surely go to Vettel for proving that he can overtake in style when necessary.

Donkey can't be anybody other than Liuzzi for taking out the midfield on the first corner.

[donKey jote]

Driver Button
Donkey Webb

[Dave B]

Webber! I'd forgotten him. Not as much of a Donkey as Liuzzi but certainly an honourable mention.

[ioan]

Double RBR awards:

Vettel for DOTR
Webber for DOTR

Shouldn't be difficult to guess which one is what! ;)

[donKey jote]

Schumacher who eventually caved in
... to Ross :laugh:

[Dave B]

On the face of it Button simply breezed by Schumacher after Hamilton made a meal of trying, but as the Mercedes' tyres were falling away at that point it's probably an unfair comparison.

[AndyL]

Brawn suggested Schumacher missed a gear change on the back straight before Ascari and made an error. Considering he was covering the inside like he had on all previous laps, I would say it wasn't deliberate. They had no advantage letting a McLaren by.

Except that as MB pointed out in commentary, Michael then started going faster when he wasn't defending and maintained his advantage over Felipe.

[ioan]

Funny stuff happened today.
WTH does mean leave place into Ascari? Defending is all about not leaving place for the other car to get you.
I fear that the order from above was to let the Macs by in order to keep the WDC alive as long as possible, then again Vettel made it a useless exercise. One more race to go now.

[i_max2k2]

Donkey - Liuzzi, webber
Driver - Seb, Button, Schumi

I was looking at the replay again, and at ascari even though it certainly looked like he moved twice, to me it seemed he was trying to get closer to the racing line, as I think he was doing in most corners, get on the inside brake late and get to a better line before entering the corner.

[ioan]

I was looking at the replay again, and at ascari even though it certainly looked like he moved twice, to me it seemed he was trying to get closer to the racing line, as I think he was doing in most corners, get on the inside brake late and get to a better line before entering the corner.

Exactly and the rules state that the driver is allowed to take the racing line for the turn after having moved once to defend their position.
Race direction asking the team to tell the driver to leave place for overtaking is just not OK. And MS mad it obvious by moving over and driving slower next time they approached the Ascari chicane.
Today a driver was forced to give up his place to the competition for no other reason than not interfering with the WDC fight in which Hamilton is not part anymore anyway. :down:

[Mia 01]

Driver (s), Seb and MS.

Wasn´t Heikkis fault that Luizzi ran of the track?

And, Marks frontwing was under his car.

[Dave B]

Exactly and the rules state that the driver is allowed to take the racing line for the turn after having moved once to defend their position.
Race direction asking the team to tell the driver to leave place for overtaking is just not OK. And MS mad it obvious by moving over and driving slower next time they approached the Ascari chicane.
Today a driver was forced to give up his place to the competition for no other reason than not interfering with the WDC fight in which Hamilton is not part anymore anyway. :down:
FWIW I think Michael was just about on the right side of the "no weaving" rule, he did take up the racing line but his racing line was significantly different when he had someone behind him.

As for Mercedes gifting the place to McLaren, no chance. No chance whatsoever. :laugh:

[i_max2k2]

Driver (s), Seb and MS.

Wasn´t Heikkis fault that Luizzi ran of the track?

And, Marks frontwing was under his car.

His wing was under the car when he crashed, but it became a bigger factor, when webber realized a second late that he must be slower to take the last corner without his front wing, point being I think part of the wing came under his car when he locked up.

[ioan]

FWIW I think Michael was just about on the right side of the "no weaving" rule, he did take up the racing line but his racing line was significantly different when he had someone behind him.


That's normal, all of them change their racing lines when defending position.

[ioan]

His wing was under the car when he crashed, but it became a bigger factor, when webber realized a second late that he must be slower to take the last corner without his front wing, point being I think part of the wing came under his car when he locked up.

Strange case of brain fade there. He could have been still 6th if he'd made it back to the pits.

[i_max2k2]

That's normal, all of them change their racing lines when defending position.

+1 and I think schumi's defense for those laps was perhaps the most precise I have seen in some time, getting back to right line at the right moment was amazing, and to Lewis's credit he drove very well this race and we had some clean racing for the most part.

[ioan]

So Hamilton cutting across Kobay in the breaking zone at the last race was OK was it? Different race, different stance. :laugh:

Did I miss the part where MS hit Lewy today?
Lewis himself admitted he didn't pay attention and it was his fault, so I'm not sure who knows better him or you?

[ioan]

+1 and I think schumi's defense for those laps was perhaps the most precise I have seen in some time, getting back to right line at the right moment was amazing, and to Lewis credit he drove very well this race and we had some clean racing for the most part.

It's exactly his precision that made the powers put pressure on the team cause it was obvious that Hamy will never get past.
For me it was great to see the best give racing lessons to the lesser driver today. A joy to watch a bit real race craft in this emasculated show. It was great for as long as they let it happen.

[ioan]

MS very nearly hit Lewis today and it was Lewis backing out that stopped any contact. Lewis took the blame for something that was his fault, which is my point ioan. Don't try and turn that around because it makes no sense.

It always a case of hit and miss, it's just that MS knows better not to hit. Case closes for me as there is nothing useful left to say, and I want to avoid a flaming contest.

[Knock-on]

Did I miss the part where MS hit Lewy today?
Lewis himself admitted he didn't pay attention and it was his fault, so I'm not sure who knows better him or you?

When your boss comes on the blower twice to tell you to stop doing something, then it pretty much a closed case. Of course, I'm not sure who knows better, him or you? :D

[Dave B]

I fear that the order from above was to let the Macs by in order to keep the WDC alive as long as possible, then again Vettel made it a useless exercise. One more race to go now.


Today a driver was forced to give up his place to the competition for no other reason than not interfering with the WDC fight in which Hamilton is not part anymore anyway. :down:


It's exactly his precision that made the powers put pressure on the team cause it was obvious that Hamy will never get past.


To paraphrase your signature, any chance you could back up this opinion?

I shan't hold my breath...

[ioan]

To paraphrase your signature, any chance you could back up this opinion?

I shan't hold my breath...

Just by what we all saw. Team asking the driver to leave place for the competitor to drive by after competitor whining to his team and asking for the race director to step in.

AFAIK we leave in a free world and each is free to make up his mind and speak freely! :)

You can breath now. :p

[Rollo]

Race direction asking the team to tell the driver to leave place for overtaking is just not OK.


No such direction came from Charlie Whiting. This statement is an outright LIE.
The FIA investigated nothing either.
That was Ross Brawn who gave the instructions to Michael, not the FIA.

[Knock-on]

Just by what we all saw. Team asking the driver to leave place for the competitor to drive by after competitor whining to his team and asking for the race director to step in.

AFAIK we leave in a free world and each is free to make up his mind and speak freely! :)

You can breath now. :p

Allow me to interpret for you Dave....

Ioan says "NO!"


No such direction came from Charlie Whiting. This statement is an outright LIE.
The FIA investigated nothing either.
That was Ross Brawn who gave the instructions to Michael, not the FIA.

You biased Schumacher hater :p

[ioan]

No such direction came from Charlie Whiting. This statement is an outright LIE.

Prove it.

[ioan]

Allow me to interpret for you Dave....

Ioan says "NO!"

Not sure Dave needs your interpretation. But it's a free world so feel free.

[Dave B]

Prove it.

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

Seriously? That's your answer?

You sling absurd allegations around, then when challenged for proof you ask others to prove the opposite. You have history of this, and it makes you look utterly foolish.

Once again:
:rotflmao:

[ioan]

What? You can't prove anything either. At least the audio backing up our stance is proven lol.

And I didn't call anyone liar either. Isn't it?

[ioan]

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

Seriously? That's your answer?

You sling absurd allegations around, then when challenged for proof you ask others to prove the opposite. You have history of this, and it makes you look utterly foolish.

Once again:
:rotflmao:

It was sarcasm, but obviously went to high.

[Dave B]

It was sarcasm, but obviously went to high.

Yes, your humour is way too sophisticated for me.





Am I getting the hang of this "sarcasm" thing? :?:

[ioan]

Looks like the race was boring for some people.

[Dave B]

PS, editing your posts once they've been quoted merely proves that you're trying to cover your tracks once you've been busted ;)

[Rollo]

Prove it.

The Steward's Report will be available for all to see here:
Post Event Information (http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Pages/post_event.aspx)

However, it appears that you have access to information which the rest of the world doesn't have. Either what you assert exists, or is totally baseless.

[i_max2k2]

To sum it up, there were two direction changes which MS made while defending, the first one I spoke about earlier, for the one in which Lewis went a little off road, in racing, aren't we supposed to be a little more then half a car ahead to have the racing line, I thought lewis dint have it there, and ms had the line which he used. And RB coming on a second time did seem a little awkward and uncalled for, both are merc powered/owned teams, lewis and button having some chance vs ms, so if haug asked RB to let them go, it wouldn't sound very strange would it?

[ioan]

To sum it up, there were two direction changes which MS made while defending, the first one I spoke about earlier, for the one in which Lewis went a little off road, in racing, aren't we supposed to be a little more then half a car ahead to have the racing line, I thought lewis dint have it there, and ms had the line which he used. And RB coming on a second time did seem a little awkward and uncalled for, both are merc powered/owned teams, lewis and button having some chance vs ms, so if haug asked RB to let them go, it wouldn't sound very strange would it?

Only twice?

The driver in the following video didn't get any reprimand or penalty, just for the info:

Lewis Hamilton Vs Petrov - Malaysia 2010 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDfkz0J74Qg)

Maybe the said driver can only count to 1?

[ioan]

The Steward's Report will be available for all to see here:
Post Event Information (http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Pages/post_event.aspx)

However, it appears that you have access to information which the rest of the world doesn't have. Either what you assert exists, or is totally baseless.

Funny that.

[ioan]

Hamilton did get a reprimand after that incident and the FIA ammended the regs to stop drivers breaking the tow in such an aggressive way. Lewis was in the wrong and he had his knuckles slapped.

reprimand = nothing, so basically he should man up and drive when the other driver only did the 2 allowed moves. Short memories and all that, what a surprise, not.

[Mia 01]

It´s quite obvious that The MacLaren team putted great pressure on the Race director during those twenty or so laps Lewis was trying to pass MS. Perhps they where afraid that a crash would happen.

[Dave B]

It´s quite obvious that The MacLaren team putted great pressure on the Race director during those twenty or so laps Lewis was trying to pass MS. Perhps they where afraid that a crash would happen.

If it's so obvious then maybe you could succeed where ioan failed and offer some proof for your accusation.

And BTW it's "Mc", not "Mac". I appreciate English isn't your first language but a proper noun is a proper noun.

[Robinho]

Vettel driver of the day, Button did pretty well after a rubbish start too.

Donkeys for Liuzzi and Webber i think

[Dave B]

Hamilton did get a reprimand after that incident and the FIA ammended the regs to stop drivers breaking the tow in such an aggressive way. Lewis was in the wrong and he had his knuckles slapped.


reprimand = nothing, so basically he should man up and drive when the other driver only did the 2 allowed moves. Short memories and all that, what a surprise, not.

Nothing else they could have done under the rules as they were written at that time. Has your hero Schumacher never done anything which - whilst technically legal according to the rules in place at the time - was widely perceived as unsporting, or which would be illegal in 2011?

[Knock-on]

Liuzzi and Webber for the Pantomime donkey. Webber for the front end of the ass because he managed to cock up his so well today and Liuzzi proved he can go arse end first so gets the backside.

Driver for me was Button. Great 2nd place and some good overtakes again.

[The Black Knight]

Driver of the race - Seb, Schumi, Alguesari and Button in that order.

Donkeys of the Race - Liuzzi and Webber without a doubt.

[heliocastroneves#3]

Driver of the race: Schumi
Donkey of the race: Webber

[DexDexter]

Driver of the race: Jaime, special mention to Vettel and Schumi.
Donkey of the race: Mark Webber.

[keysersoze]

Totally useless 5-grid penalty for the Donkey, not of the race, but of the year! Nice going Liuzzi--24th to taking out row 4 and 5 by the first turn.

You stink.

[Wasted Talent]

Driver Button
Donkey Liuzzi

Schumacher was very hard but don't think he went over the rules (just), don't forget that the view up towards the Ascari bends makes the cars seem much closer than they really are - he covered the inside and then when it was clear that Hamilton wasn't going to be able to pass on the outside he moved back across to the racing line. The lap Hamilton went on the grass I don't think Schumacher took any different line - but it did look dramatic

WT

[N4D13]

I'd give the Driver of the Race to Vettel - he's had the best car, but he's also racing better than any other driver in the grid. No clue as for Donkey of the Race - Webber hitting Massa was a single moment and I didn't see the Liuzzi accident well.

As for Schumacher's defensive driving, I recall that both Pedro de la Rosa and Marc Gené were complaining quite soundly about it on TV, as they claim that you must not change directions more than once when defending. Schumacher did two moves all the time - one to get in the inside and another one to move back to the racing line. But I think that Ross Brawn's messages were appropriate. Michael could have been given a penalty for his aggressive defending - and if you ask PdlR and Gené, they'll tell you that he would have deserved it. And with Schumi swerving back into the racing line, they could have had a repeat of the Hamilton-Kob accident at Spa, and that wouldn't have been a nice thing to happen.

[F1boat]

Driver Vettel, honorable mention to MS. Donkey Webber.

[airshifter]

Driver - Jenson and Sebastian. Mention to Jaime, and also to both Sauber drivers. BTW, what took Kobayashi out? Retract my mention if he did something stupid. :laugh:

Donkey - Webber first donkey, Luizzi second biggest donkey. With such a good car Webber should have known better in both incidents. Luizzi doesn't have nearly as much car, and made a desperate move. He almost defeated Webber in the donkey battle by placing all blame on Heiki.

MS was over the line but very slightly IMO. I don't think there was any investigation reported, so apparently Ross thought he crossed the line as well.

[IceWizard]

Driver = Button, just
Donkey = Liuzzi in a league of his own for this one!

[keysersoze]

I don't agree that Mark was to blame in his coming-together with Felipe. In the replay I saw, MW was completely alongside FM going into the chicane, and even though Massa had the preferred line on exit, he gambled that Webber would just fall back.

On opening laps at Monza, drivers are almost expected to go through that chicane side-by-side.

[DBell]

Exactly and the rules state that the driver is allowed to take the racing line for the turn after having moved once to defend their position.
Race direction asking the team to tell the driver to leave place for overtaking is just not OK. And MS mad it obvious by moving over and driving slower next time they approached the Ascari chicane.
Today a driver was forced to give up his place to the competition for no other reason than not interfering with the WDC fight in which Hamilton is not part anymore anyway. :down:

Wow, a conspiracy claim. Let me guess, you believe the Apollo Moon landings were faked also.

[ArrowsFA1]

It´s quite obvious that The MacLaren team putted great pressure on the Race director during those twenty or so laps Lewis was trying to pass MS.
It's perfectly normal during the course of a race for teams to raise issues with the race director. In fact they don't really need to as the FIA monitor radio traffic. It's obvious Hamilton was none too impressed with Schumacher's defensive driving so that message would have got through to Charlie Whiting. He then decides whether or not to refer it to the stewards.

What's slightly odd in this case is that, according to F1 journalist Adam Cooper on Twitter (adamcooperf1), "Ross Brawn's message to Michael Schumacher was in response to FIA telling team he was overstepping the mark in fight with Lewis".

So in this case a driver overstepping the mark was not penalised. A new FIA approach perhaps?

[F1boat]

IMO MS drove very well, I don't think that the rules must leave a defending driver helpless, as it is now... :( MS did a spectacular job with his defense ;-)

[Mia 01]

It's perfectly normal during the course of a race for teams to raise issues with the race director. In fact they don't really need to as the FIA monitor radio traffic. It's obvious Hamilton was none too impressed with Schumacher's defensive driving so that message would have got through to Charlie Whiting. He then decides whether or not to refer it to the stewards.

What's slightly odd in this case is that, according to F1 journalist Adam Cooper on Twitter (adamcooperf1), "Ross Brawn's message to Michael Schumacher was in response to FIA telling team he was overstepping the mark in fight with Lewis".

So in this case a driver overstepping the mark was not penalised. A new FIA approach perhaps?

Don´t think so, after Ross twice told MS not to defend to hard it was obvious that he started to defended clean, therefore no penalty.

[DexDexter]

Schumi may have used somewhat questionable tactics but one has to say that he drove very well and is still, at 42, a very very good racing driver. I wish he had a better car, though.

[N4D13]

Schumi may have used somewhat questionable tactics but one has to say that he drove very well and is still, at 42, a very very good racing driver. I wish he had a better car, though.
Even though he is past his prime, people have seen him as a bad driver since his return. I don't think that he's a bad driver at all - however, he's paired with an exceptional driver such as Rosberg, who, IMO, is rather underrated. I don't think Schumi would have looked bad if he was paired with somebody like Massa.

[steveaki13]

Donkey of the Race:

Same as many here. Mark Webber for his contact with Massa, he should have yielded once Felipe had gotten ahead into the second part of the chicane, although Felipe probably took a big risk turning in like that. Maybe if he left a tad more room he could have saved his own race.

Liuzzi: A donkey as well. It was an accident we have all seen at some point at the start of F1 races, but still got completely out of control and ruined some races.

[steveaki13]

Driver of the Race:

Driver of the race: Sebastian Vettel & Jenson Button. Both drove fast and smooth and performed some good overtakes.

Other mentions:

Michael Schumacher: Absolutley brilliant race defended excellently and on the soft tyres kept pace with the leaders. Only on the hards did he drop away, but still easily beat Massa
Alguersuari: Another great drive from 18th to points, but this time 6 points. Great Drive.
Di Resta: Did another solid job to score points.
Glock: I know it won't be noticed, but Glock finished pretty close to the Lotus cars today and showed a little Virgin pace.
Perez: I thought he drove well until his retirement. He was always running in 7th to 9th all race.

[markabilly]

Da Shoe put it to hamilton--unlike many others, he never let him get away with his sticking the nose where it does not belong.....I thought he was the first driver who actually intimidated hamilton into braking early and backing off.......over and over again. :D

I have seen speculation that the motive may not have been an FIA "warning", but perhaps the Mercedes company wishing to have Lewis and Button in the fight for a championship, then to have a fourth place for MS at Monza

As to you other posters, one move to defend, but the driver is permitted to move to make the corner, and that is exactly what MS did. Consistently outbraking Hamilton into the corners, even though MS was driving a car with almost no downforce compared to the Mac


but it was fun while it lasted.....seeing the hamster have his nose blocked by someone that hamilton knew was not being intimidated but was more than willing to put it to him. :D

[truefan72]

So Hamilton cutting across Kobay in the breaking zone at the last race was OK was it? Different race, different stance. :laugh:

:up:

[truefan72]

IMO MS drove very well, I don't think that the rules must leave a defending driver helpless, as it is now... :( MS did a spectacular job with his defense ;-)

....which I am fairly sure you would be saying the complete opposite if it was Hamilton blocking MSC
all you guys are so predictable


when it is someone else unto Hamilton it is good solid driving , even if he is pushing the driver off the track and even if that driver has been killed by mostly all for previous similar transgressions
When it is Hamilton in a questionable or dicey incident, the same folks here are calling for race bans, going berserk in criticizing hamilton, and generally making borderline absurd comments like "a danger to others" etc

you guys are so predictable
folks like ioan take diametrically opposed stances to previous comments

its almost comical :|

[ioan]

...
all you guys are so predictable

...
its almost comical :|

Oh the irony.

[jas123f1]

Sebastian Vettel is the DRIVER .. and there are so many donkeys .. maybe Liutzi was the real monkey .. yes I think so ..

[steveaki13]

....which I am fairly sure you would be saying the complete opposite if it was Hamilton blocking MSC
all you guys are so predictable


when it is someone else unto Hamilton it is good solid driving , even if he is pushing the driver off the track and even if that driver has been killed by mostly all for previous similar transgressions
When it is Hamilton in a questionable or dicey incident, the same folks here are calling for race bans, going berserk in criticizing hamilton, and generally making borderline absurd comments like "a danger to others" etc

you guys are so predictable
folks like ioan take diametrically opposed stances to previous comments

its almost comical :|

Not true. :(

I thought they both raced hard and fair.

Michael was very close to the limit of the regulations a couple of times but it was just hard defending.

I also would support Hamilton if the positions were reversed. He played his role in an epic battle, by trying to pass cleanly and not risking taking them both off. Some thrashed Hamilton for the move on Kobayashi, I thought it was a racing incident in which they both had blame.

I like Hamilton and would love to see him winning again.

So please don't say all those who supported Schumachers defending today, are not equal in their views. It would be the same to me if Liuzzi was battling Glock. :)

[tfp]

Driver = Button, just
Donkey = Liuzzi in a league of his own for this one!

Exactly what I think :up:

[CNR]

in the old days a crash like that at the start would have seen the race redflaged

mark may have been court out by the new raised chicane at turn 1 (still a goose)

Vettel not far off snatching the title youngest double world champion from alonso

Fernando Alonso believes that Sebastian Vettel is certain to retain the F1 world title and is now focused on finishing second.
Senna for his first points

[anthonyvop]

Driver of the race was Massa.

Managed to finish 6th 42 secs behind despite being spun out by the Donkey of the race Mr. Vinegar & Water.

[kfzmeister]

If anybody watched post race commentary on BBC, while interviewing Brawn about his messages to Michael, he said that Whiting contacted them and said to "make sure and leave Lewis enough room (to pass)"
What sort of crap is it to suggest that "they asked Merc to let Maccas by so that they can continue chasing RB in championship"????? Absolute nonsense.
Lewis was absolutely owned by Schumacher today! Lmao.

[Big Ben]

Driver: Button
Donkey: Webber

Button seems to be getting better and better or maybe it's just Hammy boy making him look really good. Either way he's beating LH regularly these days. I think McLaren should start focusing on the man in the team and let the boy fight with the monkeys at the back. You would need a microscope to find LH's balls nowadays :laugh:

Webber, after winning around 8 races less than his team mate, on track or off track, God knows, seemed quite focused yesterday to do something very stupid and achieved it in a spectacular way.

Vettel drove a perfect race but others would have done that too in that car.

[markabilly]

Geeeee....seems that Charlie Witig was babbling to Brawn to tell MS to leave room for the pass...what a joke.

'FIA asked Schumi to be careful' | Planet F1 | Formula One News (http://www.planet-f1.com/news/3213/7170090/Schumacher-No-stewards-so-no-issues)


when petrov was blocking alonso at the end of the year, why did Whitig not tell Petrov to leave him room???

British whiners whining--the best in the world. But da shoe owned Hamster and put him in a cage....well until Charlie decided that lewis needed his help!!!

[rsmith16]

Don't believe Whiting asked Schumacher to leave Hamilton room - believe it was down to Michael bordering on breaking the rules regarding more than one move when defending etc...

[Knock-on]

For people that don't understand the regulations, they state very clearly that a driver MUST leave a fellow competitor racing room. You are not allowed to weave in front and crowd them off the track.

Schumy was doing this and rather than penalise him, Charlie asked Ross to remind Schumy of the rules. As we know, Michael struggles wilt adhearing to the regulations on occassion so Ross had to say it a second time to ensure he stayed within the rules.

I think it was the right way to deal with it.

[ArrowsFA1]

Geeeee....seems that Charlie Witig was babbling to Brawn to tell MS to leave room for the pass...what a joke...British whiners whining--the best in the world. But da shoe owned Hamster and put him in a cage....well until Charlie decided that lewis needed his help!!!
To directly quote Ross Brawn from the article you've linked to:

"The FIA were watching it (the incident with Lewis Hamilton) and asking us to be careful. It is a balance between racing and not overstepping the mark."
Now if Michael was doing nothing wrong (and he wasn't penalised) why did the FIA get involved? Yes, McLaren no doubt raised it with Charlie, but he should have said 'MS is not breaking any rule so get on with it'. Instead he went to Mercedes and said 'be careful'.

Rather than helping Lewis it appears the FIA were helping MS avoid a penalty. It seems to have been a case of "if you carry on like this you'll be penalised". It's another example of the rather ad hoc nature of rule policing by the FIA.

[The Black Knight]

To directly quote Ross Brawn from the article you've linked to:

Now if Michael was doing nothing wrong (and he wasn't penalised) why did the FIA get involved? Yes, McLaren no doubt raised it with Charlie, but he should have said 'MS is not breaking any rule so get on with it'. Instead he went to Mercedes and said 'be careful'.

Rather than helping Lewis it appears the FIA were helping MS avoid a penalty. It seems to have been a case of "if you carry on like this you'll be penalised". It's another example of the rather ad hoc nature of rule policing by the FIA.

Spot on. :up:

[Mark]

Eh? What on earth is wrong with reminding a driver that their actions are close to warranting a penalty?

Is this not a better way than handing out penalties being the only possible action?!

[I am evil Homer]

Geeeee....seems that Charlie Witig was babbling to Brawn to tell MS to leave room for the pass...what a joke.

'FIA asked Schumi to be careful' | Planet F1 | Formula One News (http://www.planet-f1.com/news/3213/7170090/Schumacher-No-stewards-so-no-issues)

when petrov was blocking alonso at the end of the year, why did Whitig not tell Petrov to leave him room???

British whiners whining--the best in the world. But da shoe owned Hamster and put him in a cage....well until Charlie decided that lewis needed his help!!!

Because at no point was Alonso close enough to challenge Petrov, nor did he attempt to - his issue was getting close enough in the ditry air. Petrov at no point 'blocked' Alonso.

So the two aren't comparable.

[ArrowsFA1]

Eh? What on earth is wrong with reminding a driver that their actions are close to warranting a penalty?

Is this not a better way than handing out penalties being the only possible action?!
Yes I think it is. My argument, as is often the case with the FIA and their rules, is that they do not apply consistency. Do they always give one or two warnings to an offender and thus the opportunity to avoid a penalty?

[The Black Knight]

Eh? What on earth is wrong with reminding a driver that their actions are close to warranting a penalty?

Is this not a better way than handing out penalties being the only possible action?!

There is no harm in that at all. I personally had no issue with the way Schumacher drove but in the interests of fair play you have to realise that drivers have been punished for far less this season. My issue here is with the inconsistency at which the FIA applies the rules. There was a few times that Schumacher moved twice and that should have been a penalty if they were going to be consistent thoughout the course of a season but, as is typical, they were not.

Was Hamilton given a a warning not to move twice after he did it to defend against Alonso in Malaysia? Nope!

[Mia 01]

To directly quote Ross Brawn from the article you've linked to:

Now if Michael was doing nothing wrong (and he wasn't penalised) why did the FIA get involved? Yes, McLaren no doubt raised it with Charlie, but he should have said 'MS is not breaking any rule so get on with it'. Instead he went to Mercedes and said 'be careful'.

Rather than helping Lewis it appears the FIA were helping MS avoid a penalty. It seems to have been a case of "if you carry on like this you'll be penalised". It's another example of the rather ad hoc nature of rule policing by the FIA.

Ross to MS: Lewis is faster than you, I repeat, he is faster than you!!

[wedge]

Driver of the race - Vettel. Outstanding move on Alonso. *sprinkles salt on hat*

Donkey of the race - FIA stewards. No consistency whatsover over Article 20.2 of sporting regulations: "Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as more than one change of direction to defend a position, deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted." It seems it desperately needs clarifying to the public, not just driver briefings.

[kfzmeister]

He meant room to pass in the breaking zones of several corners as Michael was squeezing Hamilton unfairly. It was obvious the McLaren was faster in cornering and Michael was going outside the spirit of the rules IMO and that of several other ex-drivers. Michael was not asked to let Lewis by, he was asked to leave room rather than putting Lewis on the grass and creating a dangerous situation. Schumacher did not 'own' Hamilton either. It was a great scrap between two very tough drivers and it was a pleasure to watch. It amazes me how different people view what is infront of them.

Lol, perhaps Smedley could have come on and said: "Michael, Lewis-is-faster-than-you! Can you confirm that you have understood that message?"

[ioan]

He meant room to pass in the breaking zones of several corners as Michael was squeezing Hamilton unfairly.

:rotflmao:

[ioan]

Geeeee....seems that Charlie Witig was babbling to Brawn to tell MS to leave room for the pass...what a joke.

'FIA asked Schumi to be careful' | Planet F1 | Formula One News (http://www.planet-f1.com/news/3213/7170090/Schumacher-No-stewards-so-no-issues)


when petrov was blocking alonso at the end of the year, why did Whitig not tell Petrov to leave him room???

British whiners whining--the best in the world. But da shoe owned Hamster and put him in a cage....well until Charlie decided that lewis needed his help!!!

:up:

[ioan]

Because at no point was Alonso close enough to challenge Petrov, nor did he attempt to - his issue was getting close enough in the ditry air. Petrov at no point 'blocked' Alonso.

So the two aren't comparable.

That's not what Alonso said after the race.

[ioan]

Eh? What on earth is wrong with reminding a driver that their actions are close to warranting a penalty?

Is this not a better way than handing out penalties being the only possible action?!

Penalty or what, for not bending over to 'mighty can't pass'?

As long as he is only close to getting a penalty he is still not that far yet.
Whiting is ludicrous as race director.

[ioan]

**Puts fingers together in a loose fist and waves hand from side to side**

Having fun on your own?

[ArrowsFA1]

Donkey of the race - FIA stewards. No consistency whatsover over Article 20.2 of sporting regulations: "Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as more than one change of direction to defend a position, deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted." It seems it desperately needs clarifying to the public, not just driver briefings.
To confuse things a little more, this from Martin Brundle's BBC column:

A steward told me after the race that he was very frustrated not to have been consulted during the race, particularly as he takes a very dim view of what he perceived as blocking.

I asked race director Charlie Whiting if the stewards can call up issues for themselves if they are not happy with something they see, and he said: "Absolutely".
BBC Sport - Martin Brundle column on the Italian Grand Prix (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/14883755.stm)

[ioan]

So if he wasn't happy why didn't he 'call up issues' for himself?
Lots of hot air, or maybe because 1 steward can not decide against the other 3?! In both cases just a wussy steward.

[ArrowsFA1]

So if he wasn't happy why didn't he 'call up issues' for himself?
Neither you nor I know ioan and suggesting this steward is "wussy" is completely groundless.

My guess is that this steward was not aware he could call up issues himself, or that because Charlie Whiting had spoken to Mercedes already he thought that no further action could be taken.

The issue isn't whether MS should have been penalised - consensus seems to be he pushed the limit but didn't cross the line - but the role and consistency of the race director and the stewards.

[ioan]

Neither you nor I know ioan and suggesting this steward is "wussy" is completely groundless.

OK, he's only a big mouth.


My guess is that this steward was not aware he could call up issues himself, or that because Charlie Whiting had spoken to Mercedes already he thought that no further action could be taken.

If a steward is not aware about the regulations, including his rights and duties, then he shouldn't even have been there, a complete waste.


The issue isn't whether MS should have been penalised - consensus seems to be he pushed the limit but didn't cross the line - but the role and consistency of the race director and the stewards.

The race director is a cucumber, judging by his decisions during the last seasons, and the stewards do not know the rule as your example shows, damn hard to achieve consistency in such circumstances.

[kfzmeister]

Isn't really the bottom line here the fact that Lewis always said that he wanted to battle 7-time World Champ Schumacher out on the circuit????

Well, Lewis.....you got your wish! lmao :)
Had a faster car and couldn't get around the great Shue!

[ioan]

He did get around him though didn't he?

Only with help from Charlie! 2 against 1 not fair in any book.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Even though I don't think Schumacher should be penalised, I think it is worth remembering that Hamilton got a 20 second penalty in Malaysia 2011 for doing much less.

[ioan]

Lame.

Cry me a river.

[driveace]

It always a case of hit and miss, it's just that MS knows better not to hit. Case closes for me as there is nothing useful left to say, and I want to avoid a flaming contest.

And Ruebens,last year nearly into the pit wall ,and blocking the track in Monacco,so nobody could better his time in Qualifying .So MS is a saint?

[Mia 01]

Only with help from Charlie! 2 against 1 not fair in any book.

Yup, that´s the matter. It was only after that MacLaren putted immense pressure on the race director and he in his turn on Ross who then told MS to let Lewis by. Lewis nedeed that help, for sure.

[ioan]

And Ruebens,last year nearly into the pit wall ,and blocking the track in Monacco,so nobody could better his time in Qualifying .So MS is a saint?

Emphasis on nearly!

[ioan]

The truth hurts you it seems. :wave:

Luckily I have your posts to 'cheer' me up! LOL

PS: Take my advice, don't seek a fight if you don't have the means.

[ArrowsFA1]

It was only after that MacLaren putted immense pressure on the race director and he in his turn on Ross who then told MS to let Lewis by...
Ross did not tell MS to let Lewis by. Fact. I'd suggest you listen to the radio transmission again.

What evidence do you have to back up your claim that McLaren put "immense pressure" on the race director?

[Mia 01]

Ross did not tell MS to let Lewis by. Fact. I'd suggest you listen to the radio transmission again.

What evidence do you have to back up your claim that McLaren put "immense pressure" on the race director?

Have you ever heard Ross shout twice at a driver during a race.

Most didn´t belive me a few pages back when I stated that MacLaren called the race director.

[ArrowsFA1]

Have you ever heard Ross shout twice at a driver during a race.
No, but that's not the point in question. Ross did not tell MS to let Lewis by.

Most didn´t belive me a few pages back when I stated that MacLaren called the race director.
We all heard the Hamilton/McLaren radio transmission, as did the race director, but again that's not the point in question. You claimed that McLaren put "immense pressure" on the race director but you have no means of knowing any such thing.

[Mia 01]

No, but that's not the point in question. Ross did not tell MS to let Lewis by.

We all heard the Hamilton/McLaren radio transmission, as did the race director, but again that's not the point in question. You claimed that McLaren put "immense pressure" on the race director but you have no means of knowing any such thing.

Nope, only our commentators claimed this, but it was in swedish.

[airshifter]

Let's face facts here. Ross Brawn wasn't at his first race, and he knows full well the ins and outs of F1 and the regulations regarding it. If Ross knew that Charlie Whiting or anyone else at the FIA had no case against MS, he would have never repeated the warning over the radio.

Ross has always been one to play every card in his hand, and in this case he knew he was out of cards to play and gave MS the warnings.

I'm sure now someone will claim Ross is just a lapdog to Charlie Whiting.

[tfp]

Is it possible to vote for donkey of the season team?
Would it be fair to say the Williams team? I diddn't know whether theres already a thread on this somewhere...
Just what exactly has hapenned to the Williams team?

[Mia 01]

Exactly. Race control monitor all transmissions by the teams which is why you heard Vettel in Canada shouting that the track was too dangerous to drive, Webber often says "can you makde Charlie aware" etc etc. The drivers know this and often give their opinions on incidents hoping RC will act in their favour. Its not about crying or whining its about playing your card to gain an advantage. Lewis wasn't happy with Schumacher chopping across the front of him and let his feelings known over the radio. Race control will have heard this along with the footage available in order to make their decision. They would have contacted Ross Brawn and said if Michael continues he may face a penalty. Brawn took the decision on two occasions to warn Michael and Michael allowed space under breaking rather than squeezing Lewis like he had been previously. At no point did Brawn ask Michael to let Lewis go by. Its not in their interests as a team and its simply not done to rival teams. If people want to interpret the events falsely and force conspiracy theories as fact, thats their business, but it has no place in the real world. Lewis eventually got by, and the rest is history.

It was a great battle between the two and rather than enjoy it for what it was, there is the need to criticize a drivers ability and wind people up. Theres just no need.

The bold parts are interesting. If you are facing an unfare penalty you are forced, indirectly by the pressure from the chairman of the FOTA.

[555-04Q2]

Driver = Vettel.
Donkey = Webber.

[ArrowsFA1]

The bold parts are interesting. If you are facing an unfare penalty you are forced, indirectly by the pressure from the chairman of the FOTA.
Charlie is chairman of FOTA :confused: or are we back to this "immense pressure" conspiracy theory again :confused:

[Knock-on]

The bold parts are interesting. If you are facing an unfare penalty you are forced, indirectly by the pressure from the chairman of the FOTA.

Do you actually believe, or even understand what you post?

Who was facing an unfair penalty. Was a penalty ever mentioned. How did the Chairman of FOTA, Martin Whitmarsh, directly or indirectly force a penalty.

Can we not just stick to facts instead of writing suh obvious bull?

[The Black Knight]

Do you actually believe, or even understand what you post?

Who was facing an unfair penalty. Was a penalty ever mentioned. How did the Chairman of FOTA, Martin Whitmarsh, directly or indirectly force a penalty.

Can we not just stick to facts instead of writing suh obvious bull?

Do you actually take her posts seriously?

[Mia 01]

Do you actually believe, or even understand what you post?

Who was facing an unfair penalty. Was a penalty ever mentioned. How did the Chairman of FOTA, Martin Whitmarsh, directly or indirectly force a penalty.

Can we not just stick to facts instead of writing suh obvious bull?

Yes, use facts to create an understanding.

[Knock-on]

Do you actually take her posts seriously?

I struggle why someone would come on a forum and waste their life writing nonsense. Is it ADHD or something?

So many times it is impossible to hve an objective discussion without these idiotic posts dragging a thread into the toilet.

Facts are facts and rationalised opinions are justified but just writing bollox for the sake of seeing your post up there just seems so strange to me :confused:

[AndyL]

So many times it is impossible to hve an objective discussion without these idiotic posts dragging a thread into the toilet.

The ignore function can help, though it would be even better if it stopped you seeing replies to the poster(s) you're ignoring as well.

[ArrowsFA1]

Not really wishing to continue this, but in the interests of bringing facts to the table...

Derek Daly was the drivers steward at Monza, and this is from his Twitter account:

Shumi should have had penalty for blocking in Monza - we blew it - Agh
https://twitter.com/derekdaly500/status/113682785507606528

[ioan]

Who says that is really his tweeter account? Just asking.

[The Black Knight]

Who says that is really his tweeter account? Just asking.

Looking at the tweet history it seems very likely.

[Roamy]

Good job MS - Pass if you can - Oh lets cry cuz MS won't move over.. Hell he finally drove a good race

[555-04Q2]

Good job MS - Pass if you can - Oh lets cry cuz MS won't move over.. Hell he finally drove a good race

WTF? I nearly choked on my coffee, fell of my chair and knocked my screen over when I read this!!!!!!! :laugh:

You feeling alright there fousto old chap :?:

[steveaki13]

WTF? I nearly choked on my coffee, fell of my chair and knocked my screen over when I read this!!!!!!! :laugh:

You feeling alright there fousto old chap :?:

Is the world scheduled to end today? :p :D

[CNR]

Schumacher Should Have Received A Penalty In Monza if i did my job right

FIA F1 - Schumacher Should Have Received A Penalty In Monza (http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2011/09/13/006970-fia-f1-schumacher-should-have-received-penalty-monza.html)

"On Lap 20, Race director, Charlie Whiting, asked the stewards to look at an incident between Massa and Trulli at the second chicane. While looking at the slo-mo video of this incident, I missed the Schumacher/Hamilton incident that happened at that moment. When I looked at it again at home, I believe that Schumacher should have been given a drive though penalty. He was warned repeatedly and this style of driving is not what you want the future generation of drivers to perfect. We as stewards probably let Charlie down with this one" said Daly.

[vhatever]

ROFLMAO. Ya, Derek Daly. Everyone knows Derek Daly.

dude was probably a marshal on litter pickup duty.

You think he/they "missed" it yet why did they have brawn warn schumacher then?

If this idiot was in fact a steward it's no wonder the FIA's decisions are always so ridiculously stupid.

[The Black Knight]

ROFLMAO. Ya, Derek Daly. Everyone knows Derek Daly.

dude was probably a marshal on litter pickup duty.

You think he/they "missed" it yet why did they have brawn warn schumacher then?

If this idiot was in fact a steward it's no wonder the FIA's decisions are always so ridiculously stupid.

Well, firstly it was Charlie that warned Brawn.

Secondly, I agree on the rest. It's unacceptable for this to have been "missed" if an investigation was in order and DD, if he did miss it, should never Steward again because Schumacher's chopping and bending of the rules was going on for many laps, not just one.

[Knock-on]

It's incredible.

[ArrowsFA1]

It's incredible.
It's bonkers that such an incident was "missed". What prevented the stewards reviewing Hamilton/Schumacher once they had dealt with Trulli/Massa, or <conspiracy theory>was Charlie distracting them with that one while he gave his gentle warning</conspiracy theory>?

I appreciate there are more incidents in a race than we see on tv and the stewards can't deal with all them as they happen. I also know we'd like to see incidents dealt with as quickly as possible, and not delayed until after the race. But if this is an exampe of how things work then it needs to be improved.

[555-04Q2]

Schumacher Should Have Received A Penalty In Monza if i did my job right

FIA F1 - Schumacher Should Have Received A Penalty In Monza (http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2011/09/13/006970-fia-f1-schumacher-should-have-received-penalty-monza.html)

He should be fired then for not doing his job properly :p :

[SGWilko]

ROFLMAO. Ya, Derek Daly. Everyone knows Derek Daly.

dude was probably a marshal on litter pickup duty.

You think he/they "missed" it yet why did they have brawn warn schumacher then?

If this idiot was in fact a steward it's no wonder the FIA's decisions are always so ridiculously stupid.

Hey, chill, I think Derek Daly is British, so it all makes perfect sense vhatever vay you look at it...... ;)

[SGWilko]

What prevented the stewards reviewing Hamilton/Schumacher once they had dealt with Trulli/Massa?



Isn't there a time limit to address these things - maybe they vere just slow or vhatever......

[Mintexmemory]

Isn't there a time limit to address these things - maybe they vere just slow or vhatever......

Anyone who saw Derek Daly drive will be as astounded as I am that he is asked to judge legitimacy of blocking!!
It probably took several laps for Charlie to stop him shouting 'Go on' every time Schumacher pulled a move and explain that wasn't what should be happening!

[ArrowsFA1]

Anyone who saw Derek Daly drive will be as astounded as I am that he is asked to judge legitimacy of blocking!!
:confused:

[wedge]

Hey, chill, I think Derek Daly is British, so it all makes perfect sense vhatever vay you look at it...... ;)

He's Irish.


Anyone who saw Derek Daly drive will be as astounded as I am that he is asked to judge legitimacy of blocking!!
It probably took several laps for Charlie to stop him shouting 'Go on' every time Schumacher pulled a move and explain that wasn't what should be happening!

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't he vocal about it in his Indycar/Champcar commentary?

[ioan]

WTF? I nearly choked on my coffee, fell of my chair and knocked my screen over when I read this!!!!!!! :laugh:

You feeling alright there fousto old chap :?:

Same here! ;)

[ioan]

:confused:

Clueless?!

[ioan]

He should be fired then for not doing his job properly :p :

:up: Exactly what I thought!

[Knock-on]

Well, it seems pretty obvious to me.

We accuse the FIA of bias, conspiracy, favoritism, and double standards when underneath it all, they're just incompetent! :D

Seriously, I don't have a clue what is going on at the FIA but it's no wonder there is no consistency when we hear stories like this. i am genuinely flummoxed :confused:

[ioan]

Well, it seems pretty obvious to me.

We accuse the FIA of bias, conspiracy, favoritism, and double standards when underneath it all, they're just incompetent! :D

Seriously, I don't have a clue what is going on at the FIA but it's no wonder there is no consistency when we hear stories like this. i am genuinely flummoxed :confused:

I agree with the above. Hell must be freezing over now.! :D

[steveaki13]

I still don't agree with the steward.

I still feel it was extremley hard but just within acceptable limits.

The one time it was debatable was into Lesmo 1, but I think the steward was right to give the Mercedes team a chance to warn their driver. From then on it was OK for me.

[555-04Q2]

Well, it seems pretty obvious to me.

We accuse the FIA of bias, conspiracy, favoritism, and double standards when underneath it all, they're just incompetent! :D

Seriously, I don't have a clue what is going on at the FIA but it's no wonder there is no consistency when we hear stories like this. i am genuinely flummoxed :confused:

To quote the late Michael Jackson, "You are not alone..." :p :

[ArrowsFA1]

The issue for me now is what happens in future races. What exactly is the role of the race stewards and are they even needed if the Race Director is going to make rule calls?

[kfzmeister]

Here's a copy of the radio transmissions between MercGP and Schumacher:



Engineer: Michael, we're concerned you might get a penalty for blocking.
Michael: Why?
Engineer: Because Race Control just warned us you were blocking.
Michael: Blocking? Why - it's my own team-mate?
Engineer: No, it's Hamilton. That yellow helmet is Hamilton not Nico.
Michael: Oh (pause) I can't see anything in my mirrors.
Engineer: Are the mirrors broken?
Michael: No, somebody has stuck a nice photo of Kobayashi in the left mirror and Petrov in the right mirror.
Engineer: Can you repeat that?
Michael: Only joking - hang on a second, we're coming up to Ascari ...Yes! And again he fails to take The Schum! Get in there mein Sohn!
Engineer: Michael, you have to stop blocking.
Michael: We are having a nice battle.
Engineer: Charlie doesn't see it that way.
Michael: You know I wonder if I can get him onto the grass this lap...
Engineer: If you don't stop blocking I'm going to get Ross.
Michael: Not listening!
Ross: Michael, this is Ross. You have to leave room for Lewis at Ascari
Michael: There is plenty of room.
Ross: You need to leave a car's width of tarmac, not just a car's width between yours and the barrier.
Michael: This really is a nice lot of fun.
Ross: Michael, you have to leave Lewis room, if you collide-
Michael: He'll get the blame. He always gets the blame for everything. It won't be a problem.
Ross: We had enough trouble with Rubens last year.
Michael: Schum, Schum, Schum Schum, Schuuuuuuuuuum!
Ross: If you don't move over I'll tell people about 1994.
Michael: Er...you know, I think my tyres are going off.
[Ends]

[Knock-on]

Here's a copy of the radio transmissions between MercGP and Schumacher:

PML :laugh:

[Knock-on]

After reading the Daly statement, I'm more confused than before.

I don't care who the drivers were in this incident but am concerned about the process involved.

The Stewards don't seem to be able to manage incidents in the race effectively and there is too much blurring between what their responsibility is and what the role of Charlie is. We have seen this before when Charlie has issued an opinion to a team which the team has taken as an official statement only for Charlie to change his mind and refer the issue to the Stewards who penalised the team. Yet here, Charlie seems to have circumvented the Stewards and influenced a drivers race by warning him to drive differently.

I really don't care whether Schumy was driving within the rules or how legitimate a penalty would have been. That is a matter for opinion.

What I want to understand is who manages the race itself and decides who is warned or penalised and what the process is.

I think the teams are entitled to know this as well.

[555-04Q2]

The issue for me now is what happens in future races. What exactly is the role of the race stewards and are they even needed if the Race Director is going to make rule calls?

The Race Stewards position gives washed up and retired F1 drivers the chance to feel important for a few days each year while being inconsistant in their findings.

[wedge]

Another cock up from Charlie this year after trying to ban EBD this year.

Jean, do F1 a favour give him his P45.

[SGWilko]

Another cock up from Charlie this year after trying to ban EBD this year.

Jean, do F1 a favour give him his P45.

Charlie would go back to Jean ask what the P9 is for..... :laugh:

[kfzmeister]

There that joke appeared on Monday, very amusing lol.

You guys move so fast on this forum! Sorry for re post :(
That was funny as hell! Deserved to be posted twice! :)

[ArrowsFA1]

The Race Stewards position gives washed up and retired F1 drivers the chance to feel important for a few days each year while being inconsistant in their findings.
I disagree. I've always supported the idea of having drivers on the stewards panel because their experience of having 'been there and done that' adds a valuable perspective. The inconsistency hasn't come about since we've had the driver steward, it was there long before that!

[ioan]

Another cock up from Charlie this year after trying to ban EBD this year.

Jean, do F1 a favour give him his P45.

Is that a bullet or something?!

[ioan]

I disagree. I've always supported the idea of having drivers on the stewards panel because their experience of having 'been there and done that' adds a valuable perspective. The inconsistency hasn't come about since we've had the driver steward, it was there long before that!

So having a driver steward doesn't help one bit. Good to know.

[DexDexter]

I disagree. I've always supported the idea of having drivers on the stewards panel because their experience of having 'been there and done that' adds a valuable perspective. The inconsistency hasn't come about since we've had the driver steward, it was there long before that!

The idea is good but is someone like Derek Daly the right man to be on the panel? A former indycar driver in reality. That's what bothers me, the guys change all the time and some are used to different type of racing and may not really be familiar with current F1.

[Mia 01]

I´m sure MS wll defend hard against Lewis next time they find themself in the same position again. And MS has every right to do so, he is not afraid of Lewis sight.

[Knock-on]

So having a driver steward doesn't help one bit. Good to know.

Arrows and Dex have valid points but have you as well? Not sure. I feel after the Hamilton / Spa incident, the FIA needed to do something and we don't know how many disgraceful decisions like that they have prevented.

What has happened though is that the armchair experts like you and me have someone we can blame, even though the majority of decision making power on the Stewards panel is NOT with the former drivers but with the occassional nobodies that make up the rest of the (often biased or uneducated) panel.

[airshifter]

The problem with stewards, former drivers or not, is that they are human. As humans that follow the sport they will tend to have some bias. It may be aimed towards a driver or team, a certain way they interpret the rule, knee jerk reaction that doesn't consider the rules, etc.

Often the best judges might be people with no F1 following, educated enough to read and understand the regulations. They would not have enough background to show any bias towards a team or driver, and might be better off deciding who if anyone was at fault.


There was a controversial incident last year that as usual had all the forumers taking sides. Having shown several people not F1 followers the replay, they all came to the same conclusion without any doubt as to the fault. Granted this was a small sampling of people but all of them came to the same conclusion very quickly.

[CaptainRaiden]

I´m sure MS wll defend hard against Lewis next time they find themself in the same position again. And MS has every right to do so, he is not afraid of Lewis sight.

Who said he doesn't have the right to do so? I don't see anybody saying that in this thread or on this forum. Every driver has the right to defend. The only right he doesn't have is to block like a biatch.

[555-04Q2]

I disagree. I've always supported the idea of having drivers on the stewards panel because their experience of having 'been there and done that' adds a valuable perspective. The inconsistency hasn't come about since we've had the driver steward, it was there long before that!

You have every right to your opinion, which just happens to be wrong :p :

[555-04Q2]

So having a driver steward doesn't help one bit. Good to know.

Ex racers don't always = good team managers, good team owners, good race stewards, good driver managers etc. It's the same in every other industry.

Just ask Martin Johnson from the English Rugby Team. One of the great players and captains, cr@p coach/manager.

[ioan]

Ex racers don't always = good team managers, good team owners, good race stewards, good driver managers etc. It's the same in every other industry.

Just ask Martin Johnson from the English Rugby Team. One of the great players and captains, cr@p coach/manager.

I agree, and Alain Prost is a good example for how a good driver is just that, a good driver.

[F1boat]

I personally agree with Dieter Zetsche, MS drove hard defensively, but there were not hits and rubbish. I personally enjoy good defensive driving, like the one MS produced :-) But in my opinion British media are very biased against MS, just as they always defend Lewis aggressive attacking maneuvers. Fans like me are even more biased, so I guess that FIA and their stewards are the most competent judges of what is right and what is wrong. Clearly they thought that MS was on the edge - and I guess that they now better than me or the guys who wanted MS penalized for blocking their favorite driver...

[ArrowsFA1]

So having a driver steward doesn't help one bit. Good to know.
The driver stewards make no difference to consistency because 1) they are only there as advisors, the stewards make the final decision and 2) there is a different driver steward at each race, just as there are a different set of stewards who are, I think, generally members of the national motorsport federation.

One option may be to have a permanent panel of stewards who attend every race, so the same people would be judging incidents throughout the season.

I certainly think the Race Director should be removed from being involved in judging, or advising, when an incident occurs. That's the job for the stewards.

[F1boat]

The bolded part made me laugh because I hate the way the British press attack Lewis most of the time so where you have got this perception he is our media darling is beyond me?

From what I read in different websites like PlanetF1, BBC and autosport. I might be wrong about newspapers, if so, sorry.