Sebastien Ogier

[MJW]

the following is from wrc.com and reports about Citroen's team orders to maximise damaged limitation for Loeb's championship standings.

To do this Ogier started the second Plum Pudding test five minutes late to incur a 50-second time penalty and fall behind Loeb on the road before parking up nearing the end of the stage for almost 10 minutes.

“On this rally the team made this choice because there is big pressure from Mikko who closed the gap a lot in the championship because of our mistake,” said Loeb.

Ogier said before the start on Thursday evening that he would follow team orders but was downhearted when he was forced to surrender a points’ finish that would have been fitting reward as he fought back from his crash on Friday.

“I received a team order and I respected this,” he said. But when asked if the loss of what would have been two drivers’ championship points would spell the end of his title ambitions, Ogier said: “I have no comment about that. You can draw your own conclusion but no comment for me.”

Ogier’s frustrations intensified when he slowed again before the finish of the Power Stage to ensure he didn’t take any bonus points away from Loeb, who claimed three extra points for topping the times on the rally-closing test. He eventually finished a despondent 11th.

With very senior management (Jean Marc Galles) clearly on Loeb's side I wonder what kind of future Ogier will have at Citroen? It looks like Citroen are missing Sordo...... I just hope they dont ruin Ogier's career. I cant see Ogier going to Ford as I suspect after this last weekend the "love in with the Juohki Finns will continue"
Playing the long game and joining FX Demaison and all the other rumoured big name engineering / sporting director type moves from the service park at VW? Might be his best option.

[bretddog]

Ruin his career is a bit of a stretch.. If running orders change for 2012, then he will not have much disadvantage, if any. For 2013 Ogier can move to VW if he really wants to. I think he has all the options any driver can dream of. Even this season, he was given a huge opportunity, but failed to grab it. Loeb is favored, which is completely justified, given his history and importance for Citroen's marketing image.

[Barreis]

Finally clever brains from leaders in citroen.

[Francis44]

Surely this is what Citroen wants, however from a spectator point of view this is boring and frustrating. If Ogier managed to finish this rally wee would be set for one of the most intense finishes in the championship for a long time. Ogier is clearly not happy about it but he can't do much, better stay at Citroen one more year and leave to VW when the contract expires.

[wildsir]

The silence from Oliver Quesnel is deafening.
Ogier will leave Citroen, I think that decision has already been made.
People say Ford cannot afford him, but maybe they cannot afford not to have him, and exaclt the catalyst they need to stay in WRC

[Nornbugger]

Ogier can have no compliants, the team gave him 100% and he did a great job too but Loeb has done a better one over the season so far. Citroen could have handled a lot of things better this season, and making Ogier hang around for 10 minutes to give Loeb 1 point was a bit OTT and flattering to Mikko too

[Lousada]

If Ogier didn't crash out he would have won the rally, be championship leader and Citroens number one driver. He has only himself to blame. The pressure is taking him.
Compare that to how Loeb behaved in 2003 when the bosses told him to surrender his driver title aspirations for the manufacturers championship. If Loeb had acted like a spoiled cry-baby then, would he have won 7 titles later?? Sometimes you have to have patience because your time will still come. Ogier doesn't seem to understand this completely.

[AndyRAC]

To be fair, Quesnel is at Silverstone - overseeing the Peugeot ILMC effort!!
In all honesty, it seems as if he needs to bind his time at Citroen - until Loeb retires leaves. VW is an option, does he want to wait?? Ford isn't an option, he'd have to be mad to go there!!

[dimviii]

If Ogier didn't crash out he would have won the rally, be championship leader and Citroens number one driver. He has only himself to blame. The pressure is taking him.
Compare that to how Loeb behaved in 2003 when the bosses told him to surrender his driver title aspirations for the manufacturers championship. If Loeb had acted like a spoiled cry-baby then, would he have won 7 titles later?? Sometimes you have to have patience because your time will still come. Ogier doesn't seem to understand this completely.

+100000

[N.O.T]

but i thought that Ogier never follows orders .... LOL

[N.O.T]

The silence from Oliver Quesnel is deafening.
Ogier will leave Citroen, I think that decision has already been made.
People say Ford cannot afford him, but maybe they cannot afford not to have him, and exaclt the catalyst they need to stay in WRC

LOL...

[Rallyper]

Next year different starting order system will not mean team orders not to come anyway. So Ogier have to wait another two years before he gets no1 in Citroen. However going to VW next year means he will maybe not have a competitive car. Going to Ford would be the best option and MW has to do something to tune up the competitness in his team. Not that the finn-boys are bad, but just to asure Ogier not going to other team.

[N.O.T]

Next year different starting order system will not mean team orders not to come anyway. So Ogier have to wait another two years before he gets no1 in Citroen. However going to VW next year means he will maybe not have a competitive car. Going to Ford would be the best option and MW has to do something to tune up the competitness in his team. Not that the finn-boys are bad, but just to asure Ogier not going to other team.

kimi is going to be champion in 2 years so Ogier has to wait longer...

[N.O.T]

On a serious note...

Ogier had his chance in australia to lead the championship...he destoyed his dream and naturally the team didn't want to risk anything from now on.

As for next year Ogier will start with Loeb on equal basis as they did this year (He won events with Loeb behind if my memory serves me right)...and the team will decide who is going for the championship when things become clear later in the season.

For all of you who would like a different team or a different nationality to win you have to wait a bit more...the tears will last until 2013 so brace yourselves for another year at least, its going to be a long and painful ride.

I really hope VW delivers a championship car straight away because the sport needs winners.

[Rallyper]

On a serious note...

Ogier had his chance in australia to lead the championship...he destoyed his dream and naturally the team didn't want to risk anything from now on.

As for next year Ogier will start with Loeb on equal basis as they did this year (He won events with Loeb behind if my memory serves me right)...and the team will decide who is going for the championship when things become clear later in the season.

For all of you who would like a different team or a different nationality to win you have to wait a bit more...the tears will last until 2013 so brace yourselves for another year at least, its going to be a long and painful ride.

I really hope VW delivers a championship car straight away because the sport needs winners.

Clearly you have a point. That´s for sure.

(And you also remember me saying last year Kimi would be champion in a couple of years...) :cool:

[not12listen]

Ogier can have no compliants, the team gave him 100% and he did a great job too but Loeb has done a better one over the season so far. Citroen could have handled a lot of things better this season, and making Ogier hang around for 10 minutes to give Loeb 1 point was a bit OTT and flattering to Mikko too

both Loeb and Ogier have won 4 rallies this year. i do not see how one has out-performed the other. am i missing something?

----

my wife and i have discussed it and think it would be ideal for Ogier and Solberg to join with VW. Loeb would suddenly see all of the bridges that he has burned:
Sordo wants to take down Loeb simply due to all of the 'team orders' for him to slow and allow Loeb to win lord knows how many times.
Mikko and Jari-Matti want to take down Loeb for the sake of beginning the restoration of the 'flying finns' being considered the fastest rally drivers on the planet.
Petter wants his title back and has proven that he can do it - if he has no mechanic failures or excessive punctures.
and now, Citroen is placing Ogier into the exact same boat as Sordo.

in short, Loeb is winning rallies, breaking records, and making a tremendous name for himself - quite a bit of it is done by stepping on the backs of his teammates.

it would be one thing if Loeb had outright won the majority of those rallies without his teammates backs to step on. but, that is clearly not the case.

i want to be clear, i do not dislike or have disdain for Loeb. there is no question in my mind that he is an incredible driver. but, to his dis-credit, he never gives credit to anyone that has helped him.

example: WRC Germany 2011 - Day 1, when asked about the choice of tires, Loeb went on to say 'we just watched the tv the night before.' when asked later, there was a quick shot of the Citroen team weather forecaster. why not just say 'our weather team did a great job.'

[N.O.T]

Sordo wants to take down Loeb simply due to all of the 'team orders' for him to slow and allow Loeb to win lord knows how many times.


please name them....or ask your wife to do so if you do not remember.

[N.O.T]

Petter wants his title back and has proven that he can do it - if he has no mechanic failures or excessive punctures.


Please remind me how many punctures Solberg had in australia...

[N.O.T]

Citroen is placing Ogier into the exact same boat as Sordo.


why did they let him win gemany then ???

Ogier put his self in this place by crashing while he could be leading the championship...

[N.O.T]

i want to be clear, i do not dislike or have disdain for Loeb


then why you lie about him ???

[N.O.T]

but, to his dis-credit, he never gives credit to anyone that has helped him.
'

World Rally Championship - News - Rally winner Loeb gives thanks to his team-mate Sordo (http://www.wrc.com/news/rally-winner-loeb-gives-thanks-to-his-team-mate-sordo/?fid=11205)

oh dear.....

[Franky]

NOT, please learn to use the quote function properly and not post every single damn quote of one post separately. Thank you.

[N.O.T]

I want to up my post count thats why....its LOW.

[not12listen]

please name them....or ask your wife to do so if you do not remember.

i'll sift back through my rally archive and get back to you on it. i do not take the time to memorize each and every instance of each rally - that would clearly demonstrate that i have no life. :)


Please remind me how many punctures Solberg had in australia...

congratulations for pointing out 1 rally where Petter had no mechanical failures or punctures that caused him the chance at a podium. :)


why did they let him win gemany then ???

Ogier put his self in this place by crashing while he could be leading the championship...

Ogier does not always listen to team orders. i'm sure they [Citroen team] did have words with him about backing off to allow Loeb to take the victory.


then why you lie about him ???

that is quite a statement to make, but we're both behind keyboards, so you can say whatever you like.


World Rally Championship - News - Rally winner Loeb gives thanks to his team-mate Sordo (http://www.wrc.com/news/rally-winner-loeb-gives-thanks-to-his-team-mate-sordo/?fid=11205)

oh dear.....

good job for showing 1 clip of Loeb thanking someone else... how about the other times? again, i'll go back through my archive and give some references. :)

[N.O.T]

i'll sift back through my rally archive and get back to you on it. i do not take the time to memorize each and every instance of each rally - that would clearly demonstrate that i have no life. :)



congratulations for pointing out 1 rally where Petter had no mechanical failures or punctures that caused him the chance at a podium. :)



Ogier does not always listen to team orders. i'm sure they [Citroen team] did have words with him about backing off to allow Loeb to take the victory.



that is quite a statement to make, but we're both behind keyboards, so you can say whatever you like.



good job for showing 1 clip of Loeb thanking someone else... how about the other times? again, i'll go back through my archive and give some references. :)

you do all that....i am waiting

[not12listen]

though this is only the most recent occurrence of Loeb using his teammates as stepping stools, it is a very clear indication of Citroen's intentions.

Rally of Australia 2011.

i fully encourage you to read the first post of this thread. :)

i have no other examples right now, as i've been spending time with my wife, working on my mr2 and enjoying my weekend off work.

[N.O.T]

LOL...

An advice from a person who follows rallying in depth and judges people and teams beyond any favouritism of nationalities, personalities ects

When you attack someone use facts...not Lies.

Your first post was full of bold comments...there was no way you could support any of it and was very easy for me to expose that, i had much harder competiton i must say...

Enjoy your life and put rallying aside until you find interest in the sport itself and not interest in diminishing drivers and especially the ones that gave to the sport so much...like Loeb and Citroen.

To use your first post to spill dirt over a 7 times world champion is just low....too low.

By the way i can wait as long as you want to bring me those "numerous times that the team mates of Loeb slowed down", Loeb didn't thank anyone ects ects.... just a tip, try and use actual events and facts not manufactured lies and imaginary senarios.

[not12listen]

World Rally Championship - News - SS26: Power Stage win for Loeb (http://wrc.com/news/ss26-power-stage-win-for-loeb/?fid=15383)

to quote the WRC article:
Sebastien Ogier slowed nearing the end of the run to ensure he didn’t take any points away from Citroen team-mate Loeb. “I have team orders and I respect it,” said the dejected Frenchman afterwards.


if that is not factual enough for you, and i'll find more info. :)

as per following rally in depth, i've got footage dating back to 1978. :) thankfully, to find the material on Citroen using Loeb's teammate(s) to boost him up, i need only to go back to 2003 (at the earliest) to current.

i didn't know this was a competition or that i had a time limit - again, i have a life. :)

[N.O.T]

no time limit...take your time.

[Brother John]

Why do you think you are always right with what you write here?
I know I often have a different opinion but apparently can not be said!
There are a few forum members here who have never been negative about Citroen and Loeb but always write negative things from other drivers and other teams.


LOL...

An advice from a person who follows rallying in depth and judges people and teams beyond any favouritism of nationalities, personalities ects

When you attack someone use facts...not Lies.

Your first post was full of bold comments...there was no way you could support any of it and was very easy for me to expose that, i had much harder competiton i must say...

Enjoy your life and put rallying aside until you find interest in the sport itself and not interest in diminishing drivers and especially the ones that gave to the sport so much...like Loeb and Citroen.

To use your first post to spill dirt over a 7 times world champion is just low....too low.

By the way i can wait as long as you want to bring me those "numerous times that the team mates of Loeb slowed down", Loeb didn't thank anyone ects ects.... just a tip, try and use actual events and facts not manufactured lies and imaginary senarios.

[Rallyper]

I´ve seen N.O.T happy when Fords are doing well also. Not defending him but anyway...

[N.O.T]

Why do you think you are always right with what you write here?
I know I often have a different opinion but apparently can not be said!
There are a few forum members here who have never been negative about Citroen and Loeb but always write negative things from other drivers and other teams.

To not like a driver/team is one thing (i for example live for the day to see guys like block,wislow,kimi out of the WRC) but in any case you must use facts to support this dislike not lies and fake arguments.

[cali]

World Rally Championship - News - SS26: Power Stage win for Loeb (http://wrc.com/news/ss26-power-stage-win-for-loeb/?fid=15383)

to quote the WRC article:
Sebastien Ogier slowed nearing the end of the run to ensure he didn’t take any points away from Citroen team-mate Loeb. “I have team orders and I respect it,” said the dejected Frenchman afterwards.

if that is not factual enough for you, and i'll find more info. :)

as per following rally in depth, i've got footage dating back to 1978. :) thankfully, to find the material on Citroen using Loeb's teammate(s) to boost him up, i need only to go back to 2003 (at the earliest) to current.

i didn't know this was a competition or that i had a time limit - again, i have a life. :)

Actually I want to know that what are you trying to prove here?
Oh dear, another troll here ...

[not12listen]

no time limit...take your time.

did you like dodging the proof that i've already given that is a direct quote from the WRC website? you know, something that i cannot alter, something that has video proof of Loeb saying it himself?

your personal tactics are transparent. grow up. accept the fact that you can be wrong, and that ANY DRIVER OR TEAM can commit 'road order tactics' to their own advantage.

although, i have never seen Petter Solberg commit road tactics. i guess he is just that honest of a driver. :)

if this is how you respond to responses that might show specific people/teams in a bad light, then i have absolutely no desire to waste 1 more instant of my time with such a childish and infantile person.

[N.O.T]

stop calling people trolls...if you think someone who has a different opinion no matter how extreme the easiest way is to accuse him that he does this to see people fight...its not like that

Its the asy way out to call someone a troll and then leave, its a cowards way out.

If you have a different opinion try and expose the truth, in that way we all benefit.

A fine example is this guys posts in which i replied with valid questions.... and his reply is that he has a wife and an MR2 and a life....and that he will go through his archives to find the imaginary data (LOL). I would expect that a guy with such a bold opinion about the best driver the sport has ever seen would at least have 1-2 facts fresh in his memory before opening his mouth.

I know all of the above very well since i cause trouble in here but NEVER without backing up my stuff without valid arguments.

[not12listen]

Actually I want to know that what are you trying to prove here?
Oh dear, another troll here ...

my point is that Loeb uses his teammates to bolster his career and statistics.

i do not see how i am being a troll. i didn't make any comments that are based in fantasty. Loeb/Citroen uses road tactics. i've shown proof of that.

there are many lies that i could make up, that would cause a lot of anger and resentment - i have no intention of doing that. if i have heard a rumor, i make it absolutely clear that what i have heard is a rumor.

for instance, i heard that Toyota MIGHT come back to WRC in 2012 with the Yaris/Auris, also that Petter Solberg MIGHT sign with VW for 2012. again, those are rumors.

and just for the sake of reference, i am an active member of a few other rally based forums. lots of the other members and i have had polite debates, and once in a while the comments get a bit laced with anger. sometimes we agree, other times we do not. but, never has anyone taken such great offense to print material. and again, i am very careful to make it clear that certain things i hear are rumor (and note it accordingly).

[N.O.T]

did you like dodging the proof that i've already given that is a direct quote from the WRC website? you know, something that i cannot alter, something that has video proof of Loeb saying it himself?

your personal tactics are transparent. grow up. accept the fact that you can be wrong, and that ANY DRIVER OR TEAM can commit 'road order tactics' to their own advantage.

although, i have never seen Petter Solberg commit road tactics. i guess he is just that honest of a driver. :)

if this is how you respond to responses that might show specific people/teams in a bad light, then i have absolutely no desire to waste 1 more instant of my time with such a childish and infantile person.

you talked about that you cannot remember how many times Loeb used his team mates to win.....he has 66 (sixty six) wins and you use an an example a time where he used his team mate to finish 10th !!! and they used team orders AFTER ford used team orders also so helo Hirvonen

to help you out i only remember 1 time where Loeb was told to win a rally while fighting and that was catalunya 2 years back, and still Sordo was behind at the time not leading ....

I am waitting for the other 65 times when Loeb was given the win...

Also your first sentece of your 1st posts states that ogier has 4 wins....why Loeb didn't ask the team or why the team didn't take the initiative to slow him down ????

An advice...stop wasting your time. you have a wife a life and an MR2...stick to those.

[not12listen]

stop calling people trolls...if you think someone who has a different opinion no matter how extreme the easiest way is to accuse him that he does this to see people fight...its not like that

Its the asy way out to call someone a troll and then leave, its a cowards way out.

If you have a different opinion try and expose the truth, in that way we all benefit.

A fine example is this guys posts in which i replied with valid questions.... and his reply is that he has a wife and an MR2 and a life....and that he will go through his archives to find the imaginary data (LOL). I would expect that a guy with such a bold opinion about the best driver the sport has ever seen would at least have 1-2 facts fresh in his memory before opening his mouth.

I know all of the above very well since i cause trouble in here but NEVER without backing up my stuff without valid arguments.

i take no offense to being called a troll. i really could care less. those sort of words will not incite me to anger, an argument or acting irrationally - i can do all of those things without any help. :)

again, i fully intend to go over my archive and give you specific rallies and day (end of day 1, etc). if i can find the specific stage, i will provide that information too.

N.O.T. - i ask a simple question of you. if i do produce this information that i claim exists, what would you say then?

[N.O.T]

you know what is the problem with telling lies ?? you have to remember a lot of things afterwards.....and you don't.

can you please name the other rally based forums ??? because i do not think there are any....

[N.O.T]

N.O.T. - i ask a simple question of you. if i do produce this information that i claim exists, what would you say then?

do all that you are claiming and you will see....but please use valid facts not your imagination.

As i said there is no time limit. take your time.

[Mintexmemory]

to help you out i only remember 1 time where Loeb was told to win a rally while fighting and that was catalunya 2 years back, and still Sordo was behind at the time not leading ....


Actually, at Catalunya 09 the team orders (IIRC) were issued at the end of day 1 when Sordo was leading. So DS went slower on the first Saturday stage and both Loeb and Sordo were jumped by....Ogier :) . But normal service was soon resumed.

[not12listen]

you talked about that you cannot remember how many times Loeb used his team mates to win.....he has 66 (sixty six) wins and you use an an example a time where he used his team mate to finish 10th !!! and they used team orders AFTER ford used team orders also so helo Hirvonen

to help you out i only remember 1 time where Loeb was told to win a rally while fighting and that was catalunya 2 years back, and still Sordo was behind at the time not leading ....

I am waitting for the other 65 times when Loeb was given the win...

Also your first sentece of your 1st posts states that ogier has 4 wins....why Loeb didn't ask the team or why the team didn't take the initiative to slow him down ????

An advice...stop wasting your time. you have a wife a life and an MR2...stick to those.

that is absolutely correct - i do not remember each time that one of Loeb's teammates slowed for him. i agree that Loeb has the most wins in WRC history and has broken more records than any other driver. that alone is impressive beyond belief. that does not discount the possibilities of team orders coming into play.

do i believe that team orders were enacted 65 times? no. but, it certainly is more than 1 or 2 times. :)

Ogier is a driver and a racer, much in the same way that Juha Kankkunen is when the Subaru team orders were for him to slow to allow Richard Burns to win in Argentina 1999 - which Juha did not.

[not12listen]

Actually, at Catalunya 09 the team orders (IIRC) were issued at the end of day 1 when Sordo was leading. So DS went slower on the first Saturday stage and both Loeb and Sordo were jumped by....Ogier :) . But normal service was soon resumed.

hey! you didn't give video proof... you must be lying! :p

[N.O.T]

Actually, at Catalunya 09 the team orders (IIRC) were issued at the end of day 1 when Sordo was leading. So DS went slower on the first Saturday stage and both Loeb and Sordo were jumped by....Ogier :) . But normal service was soon resumed.

NO team orders applied after day 2...during day 2 Sordo took again the lead but lost it to Loeb at the end of the day by 1.5 (while hirvonen wa 3rd a million seconds behind already from day 1 so they could apply team orders by the end of day 1 but they did not)

check results

Výsledky Rallye: Výsledky on-line (http://2009.vysledky-rally.cz/vysledky/?rz=214&filtr=)

[N.O.T]

that is absolutely correct - i do not remember each time that one of Loeb's teammates slowed for him. i agree that Loeb has the most wins in WRC history and has broken more records than any other driver. that alone is impressive beyond belief. that does not discount the possibilities of team orders coming into play.

do i believe that team orders were enacted 65 times? no. but, it certainly is more than 1 or 2 times. :)

Ogier is a driver and a racer, much in the same way that Juha Kankkunen is when the Subaru team orders were for him to slow to allow Richard Burns to win in Argentina 1999 - which Juha did not.

I am waitting for the facts....you are not producing any.....

and the catalunya incident was pointed out by me....

wake up.

[not12listen]

you know what is the problem with telling lies ?? you have to remember a lot of things afterwards.....and you don't.

can you please name the other rally based forums ??? because i do not think there are any....

racing-underground, rally anarchy, 10-tenths motorsports. those are the ones that i recall off the top of my head. but, you're a smart guy... you can search around and find more than just this one. :)

[Mintexmemory]

NO team orders applied after day 2...during day 2 Sordo took again the lead but lost it to Loeb at the end of the day by 1.5 (while hirvonen wa 3rd a million seconds behind already from day 1 so they could apply team orders by the end of day 1 but they did not)

check results

Výsledky Rallye: Výsledky on-line (http://2009.vysledky-rally.cz/vysledky/?rz=214&filtr=)
I already did, the fact that Sordo took the lead again on the Saturday only shows how much he had to rein in to let Seb past. It was clear at the time that team orders were in play all day Saturday (Day 2). What Sordo was doing in fact was registering his protest on Day 2 as he desperately wanted to win that event. If he'd known how he was going to be treated by Citroen he might have taken a different view.

[N.O.T]

That is an assumption not the facts...because Loeb wasn't slowing down thus taking risks, because his difference with hirvonen increased....

[N.O.T]

racing-underground, rally anarchy, 10-tenths motorsports. those are the ones that i recall off the top of my head. but, you're a smart guy... you can search around and find more than just this one. :)

i am talking about serious ones...anyway, bring the facts whenever you can....66 wins...take your time.

[MikeD]

i am talking about serious ones...anyway, bring the facts whenever you can....66 wins...take your time.

:laugh: Good one N.O.T

[cali]

Was this thread about Seb Ogier?

[Brother John]

I am waitting for the facts....you are not producing any.....

and the catalunya incident was pointed out by me....

wake up.

Many facts are also produced from lies! Just look at politics and big companies who always lie to the common people.

[N.O.T]

yes but it derailed a little bit...well since there are no news about him i think we are allowed to discuss about other things which are relevant in some way.

[N.O.T]

Many facts are also produced from lies! Just look at politics and big companies who always lie to the common people.

not in rallying...facts are facts.

the only example rallying has is that of papaer champ Biasion. and still his days were short thank god.

[Brother John]

not in rallying...facts are facts.

Not in rallying? Ford, Citroën and more car factories are big companies!
I had a lot to do with several car companies and especially in France and Germany.
Will certainly not say what I have experienced and seen there

[not12listen]

concerning Ogier...

RallySport Magazine - EXCLUSIVE: Ogier set to join Ford for 2012 WRC (http://www.rallysportmag.com.au/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6157&Itemid=2)

[GigiGalliNo1]

Ogier said he is not looking at other teams/changes for the rest of this season, he wants to focus on the remaining rallies.

[N.O.T]

Ogier said he is not looking at other teams/changes for the rest of this season, he wants to focus on the remaining rallies.

well isn't that obvious ??? who changes teams with 3 rallies remaining ??? who has ever done that ??

As for Ogier to Ford...forget it.

[cali]

well isn't that obvious ??? who changes teams with 3 rallies remaining ??? who has ever done that ??

As for Ogier to Ford...forget it.

Well, I agree on the first part .. lol
But the second part remains to be unknown as Ogier definitely isn't happy at the moment. And yes, Ford is weaker team than Citroen, but when you're unhappy then strange things could happen. We'll see

[alleskids]

Ogiers only real option is Loeb stopping at Citoen after 2012, or Ogier leave for VW in 2013. Going to Ford for 2012 is a lost year, he better stay at Citroen, take some **** for playing second fidle but he also will have more opertunities for wins then with Ford. Stay with Citroen in 2012, make the best of it, and leave fot VW in 2013

[N.O.T]

guys Ogier has 4 wins this year...does this sounds like second fiddle to you ???

it is absolutely normal when things clear for the championship a team to favour the guy with the best chances over the other....

if you cannot understand some basic things stick to watching ladys cups and your local village events...

[alleskids]

Ogier was indeed no second fiddle this season, and he won 4 rallies. untill Loeb got higer up to the board of Citroen, and demanded and got an aplication to his new contract, saying he wil be no 1 driver and when teamorders are necessarily with Citroen Sport the driver having to follow that teamorders will not be him. The board of PSA were eager to keep Loeb in the team, so they accepted this application to his new contract. In 2012 Ogier will see more temaorders coming his way.

[clem126]

Ogier was indeed no second fiddle this season, and he won 4 rallies. untill Loeb got higer up to the board of Citroen, and demanded and got an aplication to his new contract, saying he wil be no 1 driver and when teamorders are necessarily with Citroen Sport the driver having to follow that teamorders will not be him. The board of PSA were eager to keep Loeb in the team, so they accepted this application to his new contract. In 2012 Ogier will see more temaorders coming his way.

You got it wrong!

Loeb got a very good offer from VW and he was really considering leaving Citroen. Jean-Marc Gales (from the Citroen board) asked Loeb to stay, not the other way around! Loeb didnt "got higher up the board of Citroen and demanded".

[GigiGalliNo1]

How else would people speculate if he's changing teams or not. I've just written what I heard, who knows if I didn't hear what I heard and wrote it here NOT then someone would have just written that he IS looking at other teams this year! So sorry for writing something I didn't find obvious!

[N.O.T]

Ogier was indeed no second fiddle this season, and he won 4 rallies. untill Loeb got higer up to the board of Citroen, and demanded and got an aplication to his new contract, saying he wil be no 1 driver and when teamorders are necessarily with Citroen Sport the driver having to follow that teamorders will not be him. The board of PSA were eager to keep Loeb in the team, so they accepted this application to his new contract. In 2012 Ogier will see more temaorders coming his way.

can you please post Loebs contract ? since you posts such things i am sure you had a look at it...post it please.

[alleskids]

I know you do not believe anything which is not utmost positive on Loeb without legal proof, but why you do not ask ask Ogier, he has seen Loebs contract?

[N.O.T]

no need for legal proof...what i do not like is unbased speculations

Loeb got a contract in 2011 and everybody said that in this contract he will be considered No1 in 2012 and 2013. What you do not understand is that ogier signed a 3 YEAR contract (up to 2013) in which there are some rules in it...and i doubt that there is a clause for No2 driver in it (because he won this year, if he was No2 he would not be allowed to do so)...So unless Citroen are a bunch of amateur morons (which i doubt) i do not think they put a rule in Loebs contract which makes ogier No2 since that would lead to legal actions from ogiers part.

Please base your assumptions on known facts and not Ifs, maybes ects.

By the way how is archive searching goes Mr not12listen with a wife, an MR2 and a life??? no more lies to throw at Loeb ???

keep searching i can wait.

[Francis44]

I dont think Ogier was signed until 2013, I remember both Loeb and Ogier were signed for 1 year with an extension clause, I might be wrong though.

[Barreis]

When you go to work, there's boss. When he says something, you have to listen. So if citroen boss said to Ogier to pull over for 10 minutes, that's it. Otherwise you can be fired and find your place somewhere else. Quesnell thought Loeb would retire and that's why he wanted Ogier to be in the team. Next year it will be different with startegies. Every rally Ogier starts behind Loeb and day by day it's same. Few years ago Hirvonen won 3 or 4 rallies in one season and where's he now?! Second. My hat off to Loeb - king of WRC.

[N.O.T]

you are wrong Francis

“I’d like to thank Citroën for renewing its confidence in me, and what’s more, for three seasons! I made my world championship debut with this team, and I’ve always said that my priority was to stay with them. I’m thrilled at the idea of driving the new generation World Rally Cars, and of defending the colours of the make at the topmost level. Like Sébastien, I’m fully concentrated on the end of this season starting with the Finnish Rally, where I’ll be part of the Citroën Total World Rally Team for the first time!”

in 2010

[Francis44]

When you go to work, there's boss. When he says something, you have to listen. So if citroen boss said to Ogier to pull over for 10 minutes, that's it. Otherwise you can be fired and find your place somewhere else. Quesnell thought Loeb would retire and that's why he wanted Ogier to be in the team. Next year it will be different with startegies. Every rally Ogier starts behind Loeb and day by day it's same. Few years ago Hirvonen won 3 or 4 rallies in one season and where's now?! Second.

Well this is no ordinary "employe". At the moment very few drivers can replace Ogier if any regarding speed, so Citroen might be putting themselves in a very dangerous situation.

[Barreis]

Sordo was an ideal second driver. No big deal, Loeb wins drivers crown and citroen manufacturers. With Ogier they have another driver who can win when somebody else cleans the road infront of him for two or three days.

[N.O.T]

Ogier has won rallies from the front as well...

[sollitt]

NOT, I tend to agree with you. Ogier has a talent close to, if not equal to, Loeb's and a move away from Citroen wouldn't benefit either party and is unlikely.
Nevertheless, many will believe that there is no smoke without fire. The goal posts have surely shifted significantly over the past few weeks and not in Ogier's favour. Of course there will not be comment from Ogier whilst he remains in contention for the 2011 title.

[N.O.T]

Of course there will not be comment from Ogier whilst he remains in contention for the 2011 title.

If both finish in rallies then Loeb takes the championship, thats what the team orders suggest in Australia in my opinion.

There is no way for Ogier to win against Loeb this year with Hirvonen 3rd...if Hirvonen retires then they might allow him to win.

[sollitt]

Just remember what Guy Frequelin said about "if" ..... something unflattering about his grandmother.

[MJW]

David Evans take on the subject, Why Ogier's Citroen future is in doubt - AUTOSPORT PLUS (http://plus.autosport.com/premium/feature/3871/why-ogier-citroen-future-is-in-doubt/)
subscription part of autosport.com but here is the cruicial part


The talk down under was of a straight swap between Hirvonen and Ogier.

Could Hirvonen swap seats with Ogier next year?
Given Ogier's reluctance to shed any light on such a deal, I sought the opinion of the Finn. He promised this was the first he'd heard of it. And he looked entirely genuine. Entirely genuine right up until the point where he did one of those grins

[N.O.T]

Lol..

desperate little brittish reporters....how sad...

sorry guys the pain will continue until 2013...get ready.

[Leon]

David Evans take on the subject, Why Ogier's Citroen future is in doubt - AUTOSPORT PLUS (http://plus.autosport.com/premium/feature/3871/why-ogier-citroen-future-is-in-doubt/)
subscription part of autosport.com but here is the cruicial part


The talk down under was of a straight swap between Hirvonen and Ogier.

Could Hirvonen swap seats with Ogier next year?
Given Ogier's reluctance to shed any light on such a deal, I sought the opinion of the Finn. He promised this was the first he'd heard of it. And he looked entirely genuine. Entirely genuine right up until the point where he did one of those grins

First of all let us see if Ford will be in the WRC next year...

[MJW]

another extract

There are a couple of stumbling blocks to a possible deal. The first is that Ford has yet to commit beyond this season (although this is increasingly seen as a matter of when rather than if);

[Gregor-y]

Lol..

desperate little brittish reporters....how sad...

sorry guys the pain will continue until 2013...get ready.
Given Citroen's team support and strategy I would not think Ogier alone could turn Ford around even if he did move. Drivers are a big part of the equation but the car, strategy and support are factors , too.

[Barreis]

Let he goes wherever he wants.

[logic]

I think before we speculate about him going to Ford , we must see if ford will be in the championship next year first.

[wrc1600]

When you go to work, there's boss. When he says something, you have to listen. So if citroen boss said to Ogier to pull over for 10 minutes, that's it. Otherwise you can be fired and find your place somewhere else. Quesnell thought Loeb would retire and that's why he wanted Ogier to be in the team. Next year it will be different with startegies. Every rally Ogier starts behind Loeb and day by day it's same. Few years ago Hirvonen won 3 or 4 rallies in one season and where's he now?! Second. My hat off to Loeb - king of WRC.
I don't think anything will change in events like Citroen had in Australia. There will be team orders anway.

[N.O.T]

Any news from the archives ???????

[AndyRAC]

Hirvonen to Citroen makes sense; a loyal No2, can rack up plenty of podiums places, plus possible wins in Sweden & Finland.....

However, Ogier to Ford doesn't add up; Who would be No1, assuming Latvala stays? I can imagine plenty of new cars & bodywork needed, not what is needed when M-Sport are counting all their pennies. Unless Ford put more money in, but that doesn't seem likely......

Saying that, they've got to agree to next year.......

[Barreis]

They should take P.Solberg.

[wildsir]

I think before we speculate about him going to Ford , we must see if ford will be in the championship next year first.
dont you mere mortals understand. as i said before, Ford will commit, if they get Ogier.

In fact, how about this.. Ford could threaten Citroen they will leave championship, if they dont get Ogier. Citroen dont want to be driving around on their own, but instead get rid of a stroppy young French lad that will not follow orders, and get a compliant No2 in Hirvonen, who is well up for it cause he is getting X more million than he'd ever get at Ford. Ford get their man and commit. Citroen will win the title for next 2 years away with Loeb, Citroen leave at end of 2013... and the world keep spinning. Dont you just love a good consiprency threory.

[tfp]

dont you mere mortals understand. as i said before, Ford will commit, if they get Ogier.

In fact, how about this.. Ford could threaten Citroen they will leave championship, if they dont get Ogier. Citroen dont want to be driving around on their own, but instead get rid of a stroppy young French lad that will not follow orders, and get a compliant No2 in Hirvonen, who is well up for it cause he is getting X more million than he'd ever get at Ford. Ford get their man and commit. Citroen will win the title for next 2 years away with Loeb, Citroen leave at end of 2013... and the world keep spinning. Dont you just love a good consiprency threory.

It makes you think aswel, the citroen bosses were probably secretly relieved that mini are joining wrc, if they continue to give ford the walloping that they have done, ford wil leave the WRC, then it will be citroen V citroen V citroen....Even if that were ever to happen, and citroen have no other manufacturers and competition to compete against, Seb Loeb would still heralded as the greatest thing since the invention of the wheel :laugh:

[N.O.T]

dont you mere mortals understand. as i said before, Ford will commit, if they get Ogier.

In fact, how about this.. Ford could threaten Citroen they will leave championship, if they dont get Ogier. Citroen dont want to be driving around on their own, but instead get rid of a stroppy young French lad that will not follow orders, and get a compliant No2 in Hirvonen, who is well up for it cause he is getting X more million than he'd ever get at Ford. Ford get their man and commit. Citroen will win the title for next 2 years away with Loeb, Citroen leave at end of 2013... and the world keep spinning. Dont you just love a good consiprency threory.


LOL.....

[Bobcat]

Citroën va pousser Sébastien Ogier vers Ford dès 2012 | La Provence (http://www.laprovence.com/article/auto-moto/citroen-va-pousser-sebastien-ogier-vers-ford-des-2012)

[GigiGalliNo1]

Ranskalaisväite: Ogierin Ford-sopimus jo valmiina - MTV3.fi - Urheilu - Ralli - Uutiset (http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/ralli/uutiset.shtml/2011/09/1390923/ranskalaisvaite-ogierin-ford-sopimus-jo-valmiina)

[focus206]

Welll... I still believe that Ogier will be in Citroen in 2012, but... now it's starting to be a "big" rumor the Ogier-Ford thing...

[wildsir]

LOL.....

I know you wish you had though of it NOT...

It looks like France 24 reporting the deal is done, no smoke without fire.
People... you need to understand, that team principles talk to each other behind closed doors.
If this 'swap' comes off, then it can only happen with Ford talking directly to Citroen.
All of a sudden its not conspiricy, but reality.

[wwbroe]

Citroën va pousser Sébastien Ogier vers Ford dès 2012 | La Provence (http://www.laprovence.com/article/auto-moto/citroen-va-pousser-sebastien-ogier-vers-ford-des-2012)

This is an old article, dating from before Rally Australia, and there is nothing new inside.

[bretddog]

There are subtle differences between an imaginary contract, a contract, and a contract with signatures.

It's not gonna happen.

[Bobcat]

This is an old article, dating from before Rally Australia, and there is nothing new inside.
1 day ago: Le Figaro - Auto-Moto : Ogier chez Ford en 2012 ? (http://www.lefigaro.fr/auto-moto/2011/09/14/02019-20110914ARTSPO00543-ogier-chez-ford-en-2012.php)

[N.O.T]

Manager tricks....

but he should be careful because it may backfire, and he destoys his career....

[wwbroe]

1 day ago: Le Figaro - Auto-Moto : Ogier chez Ford en 2012 ? (http://www.lefigaro.fr/auto-moto/2011/09/14/02019-20110914ARTSPO00543-ogier-chez-ford-en-2012.php)

Maybe you should improve your french, it was article that was published in front of Rally Australia.

[Bobcat]

Maybe you should improve your french, it was article that was published in front of Rally Australia.
Emmanuel Quintin(Sport24.com) Mis à jour le 14/09/2011 à 13:35 | publié le 14/09/2011 à 13:12

[N.O.T]

That is indeed a very Long archive search concerning Loebs attitude....

Next time try and use facts not LIES...

bye bye...

As for Ogier any finnish/brittish cry baby news about Ogier moving teams ???

LOL

[tfp]

That is indeed a very Long archive search concerning Loebs attitude....

Next time try and use facts not LIES...

bye bye...

As for Ogier any finnish/brittish cry baby news about Ogier moving teams ???

LOL

What are you talking about?

[Franky]

What are you talking about?

My guess, too much alcohol. But most likely he is referring to the user who claimed that Citroen have used team orders in favor of Loeb a lot and Loeb hasn't thanked his team mates enough for helping him, or sth like that.

[tfp]

1 day ago: Le Figaro - Auto-Moto : Ogier chez Ford en 2012 ? (http://www.lefigaro.fr/auto-moto/2011/09/14/02019-20110914ARTSPO00543-ogier-chez-ford-en-2012.php)

I thought NOT was talking about this...The dodgy British and Finnish media :D


My guess, too much alcohol. But most likely he is referring to the user who claimed that Citroen have used team orders in favor of Loeb a lot and Loeb hasn't thanked his team mates enough for helping him, or sth like that.

:D Maybe so ;)

Theres no doubting Loebs success, he IS a fantastic driver, you dont win 8 world titles(that much is set in stone IMO) without having massive amounts of skill. But he IS also citroens number 1 driver, and always has team orders on his side, and also, you dont win that many world titles without having A LOT of luck on your side aswel.

Now that the drivers title has been pretty much won already, Ogier I think is willing to bow down to team orders. But will he be as willing next year to obey team orders, when Loeb is number 1 from the start again?
IMO as long as Loeb stays at citroen, Ogier will never win a championship. And he diddn't start rallying to play second fiddle.
On the other hand, Ford may give him a chance to beat Loeb, and if this season is anything to go by, he's probably the only driver out there(currently) who can beat Loeb. If Citroen wont let him win, why should he stay?

[Plan9]

I agree with the above. I don't think that any other driver will win as many rallies of titles as Loeb either.

[Bobcat]

My guess, too much alcohol. But most likely he is referring to the user who claimed that Citroen have used team orders in favor of Loeb a lot and Loeb hasn't thanked his team mates enough for helping him, or sth like that.
DH.be - Duval : “Plus heureux aujourd’hui” (http://www.dhnet.be/sports/moteurs/article/369091/duval-plus-heureux-aujourd-hui.html)

Duval said: Que vous inspirent les récentes tensions entre Loeb et Ogier ?
“Ogier a commis la même erreur que moi. Il devrait se casser très vite. Citroën m’a détruit. Ils ont fait pareil ensuite avec Sordo. Il n’y en a que pour Loeb. Jamais plus je ne retournerais là-bas. J’aurais dû rester chez Ford...”



Sebastien Ogier says he will drive to support Citroen team in France - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/94739)

Ogier said: "I'm at the team's service to help it win more titles," (I think Loeb's service now).

[whereschris]

If Ogier were to move to Ford does anyone thing that he could beat Loeb with the Fiesta? I can't decide if it's the Fiesta or the drivers at Ford which are the problem. I'm a real fan of Latvala so would like to believe it's the car!

[Mirek]

If Ogier were to move to Ford does anyone thing that he could beat Loeb with the Fiesta? I can't decide if it's the Fiesta or the drivers at Ford which are the problem. I'm a real fan of Latvala so would like to believe it's the car!

We won't know until Ogier really drives Fiesta ;)

[whereschris]

We won't know until Ogier really drives Fiesta ;)

Good point. I hope it happens - it will certainly make make things interesting!

[ste898]

In hirvonens case it is definately the driver not the car

But in Ogier Ford would have a proper driver to pair with Latvala........what a team that would be

But it all depends of Ford will put the nesessary money in to get ogier?

Ford either wants to win or continue to be second?

[Barreis]

Latvala is a crash driver.

[T.Maanteiden kuningas]

Is there any driver in WRC who is not crashed his car? Exempel...Citroen boys in Australia 2011.

[Barreis]

Yeah, but Latvala can do it more in one season then Loeb in whole carrier.

[N.O.T]

lol...good one

just see the points difference Latvala has over the championship leader all these years...he is too iconsistent to be considered a threat so far.

Hope that will change ...his age is his advantage.

[whereschris]

I can't really remember but hasn't Latvala been really unlucky this season? I can remember the pace note error but otherwise it's been a lot of mechanical stuff. Has he crashed out of the running on any other events this year?

[N.O.T]

most of his mechanical stuff derive from offs and driver mistakes which didn't lead to a crash but damaging the car.

[whereschris]

Fair enough. I wish he could just get that bit more consistency because he is such a fast, committed and passionate driver. There's time yet though...

[alleskids]

most of his mechanical stuff derive from offs and driver mistakes which didn't lead to a crash but damaging the car.

can you proove that Latvalla's mechanical issues were only caused by drivier mistakes or Latvalla's driving style? Did you have access to the log book of the Ford team of Latvalla cars, can you point out all the mechanical issiues on the Ford cars? Remember, never make assumption on this forum, only come with real facts!!!

[Barreis]

Come on, we all know Latvala's style. :D

[N.O.T]

nice try...

just go back to the rallies he lost points and all you read is Broken this, Broken that....things do not break by themselves...

this is too easy for me please step it up or stop it....

[N.O.T]

can you proove that Latvalla's mechanical issues were only caused by drivier mistakes or Latvalla's driving style? Did you have access to the log book of the Ford team of Latvalla cars, can you point out all the mechanical issiues on the Ford cars? Remember, never make assumption on this forum, only come with real facts!!!

All Jari-Matti Latvala's major crashes - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZgEBjgKo64)

bye bye...thank you.

[tfp]

I can't really remember but hasn't Latvala been really unlucky this season? I can remember the pace note error but otherwise it's been a lot of mechanical stuff. Has he crashed out of the running on any other events this year?

He had very bad luck in argentina, he deserved to win that rally way more than anyone else, then he hit a big stone that diddnt look as if it should have been there, right in the middle of the road...but lets not get into that argument again :D

[bretddog]

Ford would have no breakthrough with Ogier. It would just prove beyond any doubt that the Fiesta engine is embarrassingly underpowered. And for the same reason Ogier will not even consider a move to Ford. These are obvious facts to all but a few forum-bugs. Ogier in a Fiesta would certainly be the most interesting experiment, but we will not see that.

It's clear that Latvala has improved alot on driver consistency. Though both him and Mikko are forced to take more risks to keep pace. But if you can't see Latvala has become a lot smarter driver you are simply blind over numbers.

The fact is with such a huge performance deficit, it's hard to compare the skills. But imo Latvala is the fastest driver of all on gravel. Which we will all witness in a Polo in 2013.

[Barreis]

Yeah, that's why Loeb is a champ last 7 seasons. :D

[Plan9]

I hope Ogier does well for the rest of the year and does not go like Petter, Marcus & Mikko who had a dip year after taking the fight to Loeb. Go Ogier!!!!!!!!!!

[tfp]

Ford would have no breakthrough with Ogier. It would just prove beyond any doubt that the Fiesta engine is embarrassingly underpowered. And for the same reason Ogier will not even consider a move to Ford. These are obvious facts to all but a few forum-bugs. Ogier in a Fiesta would certainly be the most interesting experiment, but we will not see that.

It's clear that Latvala has improved alot on driver consistency. Though both him and Mikko are forced to take more risks to keep pace. But if you can't see Latvala has become a lot smarter driver you are simply blind over numbers.

The fact is with such a huge performance deficit, it's hard to compare the skills. But imo Latvala is the fastest driver of all on gravel. Which we will all witness in a Polo in 2013.

Agree with this, the first part anyway... Although JML at VW? I think MW would sooner chain him to the gates at M sport than let him leave for VW :)


Yeah, that's why Loeb is a champ last 7 seasons. :D

I think maybe he was referring to this year and last year, rather than the last 7 seasons :)
Anyways, without JML, who would Loeb use as a road sweeper? :D

Oh yeah, I forgot, Ogier :laugh:

[Sladden]

Ford would have no breakthrough with Ogier. It would just prove beyond any doubt that the Fiesta engine is embarrassingly underpowered. And for the same reason Ogier will not even consider a move to Ford. These are obvious facts to all but a few forum-bugs. Ogier in a Fiesta would certainly be the most interesting experiment, but we will not see that.

It's clear that Latvala has improved alot on driver consistency. Though both him and Mikko are forced to take more risks to keep pace. But if you can't see Latvala has become a lot smarter driver you are simply blind over numbers.

The fact is with such a huge performance deficit, it's hard to compare the skills. But imo Latvala is the fastest driver of all on gravel. Which we will all witness in a Polo in 2013.
Really the Fiesta has a underpowered engine? I mean that would put Citroen drivers to shame..since there has been close battles...and the fastest man in Finland was Mikko were engine power matters alot. Is Citroen a better packade? Yes but to blame the Fiesta seems cheap. The drivers have not delivered the goods. That is my assessment anyway.

[Mirek]

No, in Finland the engine power doesn't matter that much. You can clearly see that on S2000 drivers. They were never so close with WRC cars like in Finland and Sweden (in NORF till the battle of Hänninen and Tänak continued). Since the rules for S2000 and WRC are absolutely same except engine, wing and few other details, the difference in speed of these two classes is by 90% done by engine. You can simply see where the engine matters how much just from difference in times between S2000 and WRC.

It's just a myth that the faster rally, the more engine matters. In fact the more acceleration from slow corners (hairpins, junctions etc.), the more the engine matters.

[bretddog]

Really the Fiesta has a underpowered engine? I mean that would put Citroen drivers to shame..since there has been close battles...and the fastest man in Finland was Mikko were engine power matters alot. Is Citroen a better packade? Yes but to blame the Fiesta seems cheap. The drivers have not delivered the goods. That is my assessment anyway.

Put Citroen drivers to shame? You mean they have to accept that it's not true they are the fastest drivers in every single WRC rally in the season? Oh, you mean since they have to accept that a Finn under equal equipment would be faster than them in Finland? hmm..

Basic physics has that fast corners or very lose surface makes the engine a much less critical factor. And that's the only times Ford shows some dull shine of hope.

[Rallyper]

No, in Finland the engine power doesn't matter that much. You can clearly see that on S2000 drivers. They were never so close with WRC cars like in Finland and Sweden (in NORF till the battle of Hänninen and Tänak continued). Since the rules for S2000 and WRC are absolutely same except engine, wing and few other details, the difference in speed of these two classes is by 90% done by engine. You can simply see where the engine matters how much just from difference in times between S2000 and WRC.

It's just a myth that the faster rally, the more engine matters. In fact the more acceleration from slow corners (hairpins, junctions etc.), the more the engine matters.

I dont agree. Acceleration from junctions comes in low gears and power is less matters. Fast roads makes you drive on high gears and if power doesnt count in fast speed driving with 5 th and 6 th gear, then I dont know what matters anyway!

[N.O.T]

stop confusing top/high speed with engine power...its amateurish..

high speed/top speed 90% of the time is due to gearing.

[Mirek]

I dont agree. Acceleration from junctions comes in low gears and power is less matters. Fast roads makes you drive on high gears and if power doesnt count in fast speed driving with 5 th and 6 th gear, then I dont know what matters anyway!

Again... S2000 and WRC is basically same machinery except engine, wing and few details. Difference between these two is almost completely due to engine. See differences in s/km between S2000 and WRC in all rallies and You can very clearly see where engine matters more and where less. The results are very clear - the smallest differences are in Finland and Sweden - fast flowing events with very little number of slow corners. In much more technical Sardinia it is cca 0,5 s/km more with smaller difference in new stages of first leg which are much faster than normal Sardinian ones. Than for example Germany with many hairpins and junctions and much better grip the difference is cca another 0,5 s/km higher than in Sardinia.

[Sladden]

I dont really know about physics and engine ect. I just remember Solberg back in Australia 2002 said that when its medium speed and good traction, we can beat the Peugeots. When its very quick (stage), the Peugeot engine is much better.
And I also remember that argument made in 2004..on fast rallies Subaru was quick again on fast rallies because of engine development. But I dont know...

I just think its fair to say the cars this year are quite equal with some advantage to Citroen. But most of the difference is down to drivers..one has been off pace.... and the other making a lot of mistakes (and mechanial issues) but on pace.

One could make the argument that Sweden and Finland was closer to S2000 since local knowledge matters alot there..

[Rallyper]

I dont agree. Acceleration from junctions comes in low gears and power is less matters. Fast roads makes you drive on high gears and if power doesnt count in fast speed driving with 5 th and 6 th gear, then I dont know what matters anyway!

Having said this I dont mean the difference between Ford and Citroen engines matters. Engines are slightly the same regarding to power. Like Sladden says its more a matter of reliability and of course the drivers way of handling the car on different surfaces.

[Mintexmemory]

[quote="Sladden"] .............and the other making a lot of mistakes (and mechanial issues) but on pace.

[quote]


In the 10 rallies to date in 2011 JML has had 4 'driver' / crew mistakes. Front bumper in Sweden, pace note error in Sardinia, a brief stall in Argentina (without losing the lead) and the off in Germany when over-driving following engine problems on day 1 (i.e. not a spontaneous mistake). I would venture the opinion that this is not too different from Ogier and Loeb this year and that they too would have had more driver errors if they'd had to compensate for the mechanical problems like engine management, drive shafts, suspension breaking, power steering, diff failure etc. that have plagued Latvala.
The common mis-conception that Latvala still makes more driver errors than other top 6 drivers is just plain wrong. I do agree, that as many people on this forum thought, Ford have paid the penalty for failing to test the Fiesta sufficiently before this season when the suspension set up could have been refined and the drive train weaknesses addressed

[Barreis]

What about small errors like that one in Australia?! There's no rally without small mistake from him.

[Sladden]

I dont think its a far cry to say Citroen is the team with most talented crews. Loeb..a phenomenon. And Ogier had a learning curve straight up. With the least amount of experience of the factory (and some private) drivers, he is fighting for victories in every rally now.

[Mintexmemory]

What about small errors like that one in Australia?! There's no rally without small mistake from him.
Do you mean the one where he inexplicably slowed and lost the lead to Hirvonen ;)
Ok SS3 in Australia as an error is the acceptable level of driver mistake i.e. not terminal, and one which Loeb, Ogier and Solberg have all made this year. Mikko isn't making as many mistakes, but then he isn't as fast as the other 4 (though I'm sure someone will have a statistic that says otherwise. :rolleyes:

[wildsir]

I dont think its a far cry to say Citroen is the team with most talented crews. Loeb..a phenomenon. And Ogier had a learning curve straight up. With the least amount of experience of the factory (and some private) drivers, he is fighting for victories in every rally now.

The common denominator is Citroen. I would be good in a Citroen....

[tfp]

Do you mean the one where he inexplicably slowed and lost the lead to Hirvonen ;)
Ok SS3 in Australia as an error is the acceptable level of driver mistake i.e. not terminal, and one which Loeb, Ogier and Solberg have all made this year. Mikko isn't making as many mistakes, but then he isn't as fast as the other 4 (though I'm sure someone will have a statistic that says otherwise. :rolleyes:

I wouldnt say Mikko had been as fast this year as he has been in the past, but he is a whole world better than he was last year. In the first half of the year, he was off pace in jordan and argentina, but apart from those two rallies, he has been up there. Last year, he was off pace pretty much from start to finish!

[Sladden]

The common denominator is Citroen. I would be good in a Citroen....
Oh please. Its his 3rd season in WRC...compare him to others 3rd season..or 2nd. They were "learning"...

[N.O.T]

The common denominator is Citroen. I would be good in a Citroen....

Go tell Solberg and Kimi that...

[wildsir]

Go tell Solberg and Kimi that...
I was referring to the works cars... dont you think I have been listening to PS yapping all year?

[wildsir]

What im saying is the Ogier is better than he looks. He is no quicker than Latvala. JML can't resist the temptation to drive the car quick than it can physically go.. hence the mistakes. Thats his fault, but a fact.

[Mintexmemory]

JML can't resist the temptation to drive the car quick than it can physically go.. hence the mistakes. Thats his fault, but a fact.

I think you spelled: 'JML has been told to try to get the lousily-developed car to go quicker than the engineering allows.. hence the lack of error margin and mechanical failures. That's his orders, and may be a fact', wrong ;)

[sollitt]

Thats his fault, but a fact. No, that's an opinion. Yours.

[dimviii]

"I think you have to ask the team, it's not for me to answer," he said. "My approach is the same as usual to do the best result I can do for myself. As you saw in the last rally, I think my driver championship is over, if you have more question, ask them to the team."

Sebastien Ogier coy on Citroen future talk - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/94897)

[Plan9]

Why hasn't Mini been mentioned as a candidate for him? I know it would be almost impossible to dislodge Dani or Kris but they could enter a third car?

[N.O.T]

Why hasn't Mini been mentioned as a candidate for him? I know it would be almost impossible to dislodge Dani or Kris but they could enter a third car?

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

good posts today....people still sleeping.

[tfp]

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

good posts today....people still sleeping.

Er, no, look at his flag, its morning over there :D

[Plan9]

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

good posts today....people still sleeping.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I guess the laughter goes both ways. You are making immature comments on blogs while the rest of the European members seem to have better things to do.

[N.O.T]

blogs....???

LOL...

wake up.

[Juha_Koo]

Ogier moving to Ford...

Google Translate (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mtv3.fi%2Furheilu%2Fralli%2Fuut iset.shtml%2F2011%2F10%2F1400750%2Fsiirtopommi-ogier-syrjayttamassa-hirvosen-fordilla&act=url)

I just wonder who this "very reliable source" is. I have a hunch though...

[N.O.T]

Its funny to see that the british and the finish care more about Ogiers future more than the french....

all that brutal beating they got from them all these years is starting to have phychological effects on them... anti-depressant drug companies must be delighted in Finland and UK.

LOL

[Sladden]

This rally once again prove the Ford and Citroen is very close even on tarmac. Difference comes from the person behind the wheel.

[Hartusvuori]

Its funny to see that the british and the finish care more about Ogiers future more than the french....

all that brutal beating they got from them all these years is starting to have phychological effects on them... anti-depressant drug companies must be delighted in Finland and UK.

LOL

It indeed is weird that Finnish motorsport press is interested in who will drive with Ford next season, considering that there currently are two Finns driving a Ford... Reporting on the matter is not a consequence of psychological beating, I can assure you, and while at it, our anti-depressant of choice is the same as anyones. Alcohol, of course.

[miksu]

Clever move from Ford, thats what they need -someone who knows how to drive on tarmac. And replacing Mikko rather that JM is right choice also.

[janneppi]

Reporting on the matter is not a consequence of psychological beating, I can assure you,
Decades of top drivers, rally culture and general interest it has created also plays a bit of a role.

and while at it, our anti-depressant of choice is the same as anyones. Alcohol, of course.
We also kill ourselves because it's too dark in the winter and too bright in the summer, not because there are faster drivers on WRC. :D

If Ogiers future pans out as reportet, next season would very interesting

[N.O.T]

So will ogier have a No1 status at ford ???

LOL

maybe the rumour about Latvala is a pay driver is true after all...

[MJW]

So will ogier have a No1 status at ford ???

LOL

maybe the rumour about Latvala is a pay driver is true after all...
Who says Latvala stays as well?

[ste898]

I have always supported Latvala but tbh I dont think he is much better than his totally useless team mate Hirvonen

Maybe Ford have realised that to win anything in WRC they will have to at the very least get rid of useless Hirvonen

[Langdale Forest]

I have always supported Latvala but tbh I dont think he is much better than his totally useless team mate Hirvonen

Maybe Ford have realised that to win anything in WRC they will have to at the very least get rid of useless Hirvonen


I agree, Hirvonen only won in Australia because both the works Citroens crashed out and that Latvala was told to let Hirvonen past. If none of those happend, he would probably have finished 4th. He managed to nearley become champion in 2009 because he was consistent and was relying on other drivers to make mistakes or break down.

But the problem is that there are no other drivers who could replace Hirvonen in the works team, Petter Solberg maybe?

[cali]

But the problem is that there are no other drivers who could replace Hirvonen in the works team, Petter Solberg maybe?
Hänninen, Mikkelsen, Ostberg and Tänak

[N.O.T]

Hanninen is bound to VW

Mikkelsen is nobody forthe moment struggling to win Loix in the ladycup competition

Ostberg is good for Sweden only

Tanak is the only Viable solution.

[cali]

Hanninen is bound to VW

Mikkelsen is nobody forthe moment struggling to win Loix in the ladycup competition

Ostberg is good for Sweden only

Tanak is the only Viable solution.

IMHO all of them are at least good enough to replace Hirvonen.
Mikkelsen has the speed and he has showed this in many occasions giving Hänninen very strong resistance. Don't look only the points.

And I was replying to the comment that there's nobody who could replace Hirvonen. I think there's quite plenty of them. Ofcourse I'm happy to see Hänninen in VW, but nothing official yet.

[N.O.T]

you are wrong about mikkelsen and Hanninen will not abandon VW after all these years of support....

As far as speed goes only Tanak and Hanninen have some chances...the rest are good privateers.

[cali]

you are wrong about mikkelsen and Hanninen will not abandon VW after all these years of support....

As far as speed goes only Tanak and Hanninen have some chances...the rest are good privateers.
You didn't clearly get my point but OK :)

[Bobcat]

Its funny to see that the british and the finish care more about Ogiers future more than the french....

all that brutal beating they got from them all these years is starting to have phychological effects on them... anti-depressant drug companies must be delighted in Finland and UK.

LOL

What's funny is that, Dani Sordo is finally showing what he can do when he is not in the shadow of Citroen team's depressant drugs. ;)

[dimviii]

Guys don t forget the masters absence.This is the benchmark in asphalt.

[N.O.T]

What's funny is that, Dani Sordo is finally showing what he can do when he is not in the shadow of Citroen team's depressant drugs. ;)

wat he can do exactly ???

he was 2nd with the citroen and now 2nd with the mini STILL behind the citroen....

i see no progress.

[GigiGalliNo1]

wat he can do exactly ???

he was 2nd with the citroen and now 2nd with the mini STILL behind the citroen....

i see no progress.

Ahead of Loeb :p

[Bobcat]

Citroen says it is still backing Sebastien Loeb for title despite Sebastien Ogier's win - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95017)

"The biggest danger is the blue corner: Hirvonen," said Quesnel at the end of the Alsace-based event, where Hirvonen finished fourth. "That is our main concern. Afterwards, Sebastien Loeb is team leader, then we will see what happens."

[Barreis]

Go Loeb.

[MJW]

Have a look on wrc.com to see the final part of the press conference. Ogier trots out the "I am a Citroen driver" response to the question that he has signed for Ford. Look at Petter, Sordo and Carlos Del Bario response. The service park already knows.......

[tfp]

Have a look on wrc.com to see the final part of the press conference. Ogier trots out the "I am a Citroen driver" response to the question that he has signed for Ford. Look at Petter, Sordo and Carlos Del Bario response. The service park already knows.......

I've just watched that...Did you see Quesnel start sweating when the camera turned towards him? :p :

[GigiGalliNo1]

Where can I watch this cOnference? Why do I always miss out?!

[Plan9]

Hänninen, Mikkelsen, Ostberg and Tänak
I think that it is way to early to speculate about drivers to replace Mikko. I feel that he is too good an investment to give away just because he cannot get the Fiesta to work well.
Hanninen & Mikkelsen will probably be involved with the Fabias next year at least and will want to show off to VW.
Unlike N.O.T. I think that Ostberg is a driver with alot of potential and is still young enough, with enough money to wait around till a manufacturer picks him up. Not sure if that will be Ford or not.
Tanak is now most likely on everybody's list for a drive in the next few years. I think Prokop will also have more involvement at Ford.
I am unsure why Ogier has not talked about the other British team involved in the WRC.

[kiil]

Have a look on wrc.com to see the final part of the press conference. Ogier trots out the "I am a Citroen driver" response to the question that he has signed for Ford. Look at Petter, Sordo and Carlos Del Bario response. The service park already knows.......

That is quite funny :-)

[Barreis]

Where can I watch this cOnference? Why do I always miss out?!

on wrc.com

[Francis44]

Even funnier is that Quesnell is so ashammed by the situation that he puts a glass in Dani's head in order to look happy and calm.

[Barreis]

Maybe he's happy about ex citroen driver who helped them to gain some titles.

[Francis44]

Or maybe just acting like a douche.

[bretddog]

I don't consider this press conference to indicate anything. I think you are reading them wrong. Please explain the motive for Ogier to change to a team who hasn't won a single event that can be attributed to a strong engine performance during the last 3 years? Excluding Finland and Sweden, where the Finns are naturally very strong, all wins coincide with crashes or other adverse factors for Citroen.

So what is the motive? What type of restrictions you assume Ogier will have in 2012 which he can not accept? Has Ford demanded a horse-deal to get Ogier in order to stay for the coming season?

I just don't see the logic.

[Plan9]

I don't consider this press conference to indicate anything. I think you are reading them wrong. Please explain the motive for Ogier to change to a team who hasn't won a single event that can be attributed to a strong engine performance during the last 3 years? Excluding Finland and Sweden, where the Finns are naturally very strong, all wins coincide with crashes or other adverse factors for Citroen.

So what is the motive? What type of restrictions you assume Ogier will have in 2012 which he can not accept? Has Ford demanded a horse-deal to get Ogier in order to stay for the coming season?

I just don't see the logic.

I agree +1. Can anyone post a link to this amazing press conference so I can try to read between the lines as well?

I just cannot see why Mikko & Ogier would want to play musical chairs. Neither benefits long term.

Mikko would be ASSURED as number 2 and never be equal to Loeb. Ever. Mikko could only be allowed to win if Loeb crashed or was not traditionally strong on the event (Sweden, Finland). The only (unlikely) light at the end of the tunnel would be moving into the Number 1 position when Loeb went and winning a swansong title before Citroen left the sport (Quensel has been quoted as saying that Citroen's presence in the sport somewhat dependent on having Loeb as a driver)

Ogier would be moving to a team with a weak car that would not be a winner on tarmac and many gravel based events & he would be partnered with Latvala who would not accept anything less than parity with him. Perhaps Ogier would just stay at Ford until Loeb left then bounce back in to Citroen.

[bretddog]

The only reason that can make any sense is if Loeb put up an ultimatum that one leaves Citroen for 2012, either him or Ogier. This is obviously what he wanted to happen as of his comments to Ogier in 2010, suggesting him to go to Ford, before Ogier signed the contract. And that opinion would certainly not change after what happened this season. So it's not so far fetched. And the PSA board would support it.

Loeb is as we know extremely in character, humble and supportive of a fair game. But the observant one would note how seemingly smooth he accepted the Quesnel-plot building over the first half of the season, did in reality not go by him easily. But he's not the one to blink the eye twice over such a situation, in the public... This he leaves for the back-room. And his show of strength would come when he got the upper hand, negotiating the next contract.

This is imo the only sensible explanation, if the Ogier/Ford rumor turns out to be true.


Plan9,
It's the post rally press conference;
World Rally Championship - Video - Browse All - France 2011: Post-rally Press Conference (http://wrc.com/video/browse-all/video-france-2011-post-rally-press-conference/?vid=2347)

[AMSS]

The only reason that can make any sense is if Loeb put up an ultimatum that one leaves Citroen for 2012, either him or Ogier. This is obviously what he wanted to happen as of his comments to Ogier in 2010, suggesting him to go to Ford, before Ogier signed the contract. And that opinion would certainly not change after what happened this season. So it's not so far fetched. And the PSA board would support it.

Loeb is as we know extremely in character, humble and supportive of a fair game. But the observant one would note how seemingly smooth he accepted the Quesnel-plot building over the first half of the season, did in reality not go by him easily. But he's not the one to blink the eye twice over such a situation, in the public... This he leaves for the back-room. And his show of strength would come when he got the upper hand, negotiating the next contract.

This is imo the only sensible explanation, if the Ogier/Ford rumor turns out to be true.


Plan9,
It's the post rally press conference;
World Rally Championship - Video - Browse All - France 2011: Post-rally Press Conference (http://wrc.com/video/browse-all/video-france-2011-post-rally-press-conference/?vid=2347)

From what i have heard, and this is a ruomour!!! The reason for Ogier leaving is that when he signed the contract with Citroen he was granted equal status in the team, BUT Ogiers contract is with Citroen sport(Quesnel) whereas again when Loeb signed the contract before Germany it was with PSA, and highest ranking man in the company and also without Quesnels knowledge, and Loebs contract states he is number 1 in the team. In this case PSA oversees C-sport so Loeb got his way.
This also means Ogiers contract is basially violated so no buy out or anything is needed from Fords end.
I say again this is a rumour as I (or anyone else in these forums won`t probably ever get to read these contracts.).
And strong "rumours" say all contracts for next year are already signed with the switch Og<->Hi made?

[Tomi]

From what i have heard, and this is a ruomour!!! The reason for Ogier leaving is that when he signed the contract with Citroen he was granted equal status in the team, BUT Ogiers contract is with Citroen sport(Quesnel) whereas again when Loeb signed the contract before Germany it was with PSA, and highest ranking man in the company and also without Quesnels knowledge, and Loebs contract states he is number 1 in the team. In this case PSA oversees C-sport so Loeb got his way.
This also means Ogiers contract is basially violated so no buy out or anything is needed from Fords end.
I say again this is a rumour as I (or anyone else in these forums won`t probably ever get to read these contracts.).
And strong "rumours" say all contracts for next year are already signed with the switch Og<->Hi made?

I think your post make sence, Loeb would not have sign a contract where he would not be the nr1 driver, also there is no guarantee that Citroen continiue in rally after Loebs contract runs out, so its much possible that Ogier might move else where.

[MJW]

Citroen's current commitment is only to end of 2013 championship - the same as Loeb's deal.

[Miika]

So there are paper champions and paper champions. Others fix the results in the events whereas Seb 1.0 does the same and more with one piece of paper.

[GigiGalliNo1]

What is this guys? Ogier to Ford?

Siirtopommi: Ogier syrjäyttämässä Hirvosen Fordilla! - MTV3.fi - Urheilu - Ralli - Uutiset (http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/ralli/uutiset.shtml/2011/10/1400750/siirtopommi-ogier-syrjayttaa-hirvosen-fordilla)

[Hartusvuori]

What is this guys? Ogier to Ford?

Siirtopommi: Ogier syrjäyttämässä Hirvosen Fordilla! - MTV3.fi - Urheilu - Ralli - Uutiset (http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/ralli/uutiset.shtml/2011/10/1400750/siirtopommi-ogier-syrjayttaa-hirvosen-fordilla)

This was discussed during Rallye de France - nothing new on that after the rally.

[Francis44]

What is this guys? Ogier to Ford?

Siirtopommi: Ogier syrjäyttämässä Hirvosen Fordilla! - MTV3.fi - Urheilu - Ralli - Uutiset (http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/ralli/uutiset.shtml/2011/10/1400750/siirtopommi-ogier-syrjayttaa-hirvosen-fordilla)

Rumours, rumours and more rumours.

[Bobcat]

Quesnel: "Loeb est le team leader" - RALLYE - Moteurs - Rallye - Sport - France Télévisions (http://sport.francetv.fr/moteurs/rallye/105018-quesnel-loeb-est-le-team-leader)

[N.O.T]

so if both finish Loeb will take the win/finish ahead of Ogier in Spain.

[dimviii]

So there are paper champions and paper champions. Others fix the results in the events whereas Seb 1.0 does the same and more with one piece of paper.
I couldn t imagine that will be a day i realise that Gronholm and Makkinen are paper champions.Pitty...

[Bobcat]

AUTOhebdo SPORT. Ogier, más cerca de Ford (http://www.autohebdosport.es/ogier-mas-cerca-de-ford)

[N.O.T]

the first few words of the article are

Los rumores sobre....

[havk]

if Ogier will have to give a win to Loeb in Spain it could be this what finally make him sign contract with Ford.. And if the rumours that Loeb's contract give him no. 1 status are true, there is rather nothing reasonable to him than leaving Citroen. But It's hard to believe to those rumours. Would Citroen marginalize such talented driver like Ogier?

[dimviii]

At last two rallies at Ogiers interviews,his dissatisfaction is apparent.
If Ogier moves to Ford,i can t see why they have to keep Quesnel.

[DonJippo]

Would Citroen marginalize such talented driver like Ogier?

Yes if they are planning to be in WRC only two more years.

[Plan9]

how safley can Ogier break team orders? I think at this point it would be worth the risk.

[N.O.T]

As was said previously... Citroen has far better tools to jeopardise Ogier if they want, so i see no reason for ogier to take risks.

[Bobcat]

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/299641_183001421776974_107880512622399_419052_1689 811204_n.jpg

[N.O.T]

LOL...

[bretddog]

Photoshop ! ..nice try.

[dimviii]

Photoshop ! ..nice try.
its not a photoshop,plenty of pictures with Ogier and Loriaux in France.Some of them already posted here from various photographers.

[N.O.T]

Its no photoshop....but doesn't mean anything also.....

[bretddog]

its not a photoshop,plenty of pictures with Ogier and Loriaux in France.Some of them already posted here from various photographers.
..try irony. It's hardly unprecedented.

[Langdale Forest]

Its no photoshop....but doesn't mean anything also.....

It's just another image from the propiganda dogs....

[N.O.T]

no need to be for propaganda reasons.... basically because its Ogiers/Citorens choice and none else, the media cannot form opinions of the people involved when it comes to decisions like this, they will form some opinions to the sheep fans but thats about it.

The media thrive from such rumours (especially in rallying where there is not much news the last few years with the citroen/Loeb domination) and for them this story is a fresh corpse and all the media vultures gather to feast on it.....its normal.

I really would like to see the reactions if this story proves to be a fluke.

chopping is a gay boy he likes boys bums

chopping is a gay boy he likes gay boys

[Langdale Forest]

chopping is a gay boy he likes boys bums


what is this?

N.o.t the north will not rise agan

I SNAPPED BCV PS2 game

[BDunnell]

what is this?

Spam, now deleted.

[Plan9]

As was said previously... Citroen has far better tools to jeopardise Ogier if they want, so i see no reason for ogier to take risks.

I understand those comments, I have read them. The point I wanted to make is that Ogier has now won more rallies this season than Loeb. I am unsure whether he would want to ruin that effort by effectively racing for second place for the next to rallies and allowing Loeb to win. What is there to jeopardize? If he is going to Ford anyway what does it matter if he leave Citroen with a bloody nose? As a professional sportsman I would expect Ogier to do all that he can to win this championship on his own back. He has ignored team orders before and got away with it, why not now???

[Mintexmemory]

I understand those comments, I have read them. The point I wanted to make is that Ogier has now won more rallies this season than Loeb. I am unsure whether he would want to ruin that effort by effectively racing for second place for the next to rallies and allowing Loeb to win. What is there to jeopardize? If he is going to Ford anyway what does it matter if he leave Citroen with a bloody nose? As a professional sportsman I would expect Ogier to do all that he can to win this championship on his own back. He has ignored team orders before and got away with it, why not now???

Why not now? Because he doesn't have the element of surprise. if he manages to spring a last minute win over SL in Spain how good do you think his car for GB will be? (A quick swap with Petter's car, a couple of paint jobs and Bob's yer uncle!). His only hope is for Loeb to have another error induced mechanical failure on day 1 and to then get 15+ points from the rally. Actually he needs a max in those circumstances as he usually rolls it on WRGB anyway! ;-)
Can't see anything but an 8th title for Old Seb

[N.O.T]

I understand those comments, I have read them. The point I wanted to make is that Ogier has now won more rallies this season than Loeb. I am unsure whether he would want to ruin that effort by effectively racing for second place for the next to rallies and allowing Loeb to win. What is there to jeopardize? If he is going to Ford anyway what does it matter if he leave Citroen with a bloody nose? As a professional sportsman I would expect Ogier to do all that he can to win this championship on his own back. He has ignored team orders before and got away with it, why not now???

If citroen relises that Ogier is a threat to Loeb....then at the service they will chance the ecu program of his car so it doen't have so much power...so Ogier even if he wants to do such an unprofessional thing he would not be able to...although professional sportsmen do EXACTLY what their employers say....

where exactly did he ingore team orders ??? Australia ???

LOL

[N.O.T]

Why not now? Because he doesn't have the element of surprise. if he manages to spring a last minute win over SL in Spain how good do you think his car for GB will be? (A quick swap with Petter's car, a couple of paint jobs and Bob's yer uncle!). His only hope is for Loeb to have another error induced mechanical failure on day 1 and to then get 15+ points from the rally. Actually he needs a max in those circumstances as he usually rolls it on WRGB anyway! ;-)
Can't see anything but an 8th title for Old Seb

Team orders are being applied long before the last stage of the rally so he will not be able to surprise anyone....Citroen will tell him on day 2-3 to to stay clear of Loeb...if he doesn't citroen will make sure the car does.

[bretddog]

Unless Mikko can push the Citroen team orders to wait for last stages of GB, there is no real chance for Ogier to break them. But for that situation to even occur is quite unlikely, and one rally in between, so not much point to discuss.

Though I think it's a very valid speculation to question if Quesnel is really done and over with his agenda... Is he playing a two-face for both the media and the PSA management? It's still Quesnel-Ogier vs PSA-Loeb as far as I'm concerned. And due to what happened in France, which btw still smells, the whole thing is wide open.

You can't dictate Loeb to walk away with this one.. I think he will rise to the challenge, but he can't afford a moment of bad luck, and he hasn't had this type of pressure ever before; Both from the outside and inside of his team, even with 2 drivers at the very end of the season. If he can't close in next behind Ogier in Spain, so they can swap positions, then Ogier has a very real chance to snatch this title.

[ShiftingGears]

The common denominator is Citroen. I would be good in a Citroen....

No, no you wouldn't. That is what excuse people use to justify why Loeb gets better results than their favourite driver.

In reality, the Ford driver who was closest to Loeb in terms of talent in the last five years was Marcus Gronholm, and even he could not pull off the consistency rally after rally that Loeb did.

[dimviii]

World Rally Championship - News - Quesnel proud of Ogier (http://www.wrc.com/news/quesnel-proud-of-ogier/?fid=15545)

[Bobcat]

World Rally Championship - News - Quesnel proud of Ogier (http://www.wrc.com/news/quesnel-proud-of-ogier/?fid=15545)

Despite openly backing Ogier, Quesnel has stated that Ogier’s team-mate Sebastien Loeb will continue to have Citroen’s full support in his bid for an eighth world title.

“He’s the [world championship] leader and that means the focus is Sebastien Loeb,” said Quesnel.

Funny and sporty Quesnel....lol :D

wigget andrew husrey

[Hartusvuori]

The point I wanted to make is that Ogier has now won more rallies this season than Loeb.

Another statistic than wins - and not to take anything away from Ogier, just a reminder. And where does this leave Hirvonen? Exactly where he is supposed to be, fourth:

STAGE WINS

Loeb, Sebastien (FR) 55
Latvala, Jari-Matti (FI) 51
Ogier, Sebastien (FR) 50
Hirvonen, Mikko (FI) 32
Solberg, Petter (NO) 26
Sordo, Dani(SP) 4
Andersson, Per-Gunnar (SE) 4
Ostberg, Mads (NO) 4
Ketomaa, Jari (FI) 1

(Statistics from Jonkka and wrc.com)

[MikeD]

Though I think it's a very valid speculation to question if Quesnel is really done and over with his agenda...

Of course he is, otherwise he won't have a job efter Rally Spain.

My guess it that Citroën will approach Rally Spain this way...

Priority 1: Seal the Manufacturers championship

Priority 2: Make sure that Ogier finish in top 3 - and doesn't take the fight to Loeb and Sordo (Manu points are more important that drivers points in this rally as Citroën doesn't want to fight for both championships in GB). This message will be made very clear to Ogier and if he doesn't obey he won't driver rally GB in a DS3.

Priority 3: Upgrade PSWRT to full factory support like they did in 2009 (from private Xsara to PH-Sport C4). PSolberg will be treated like Loeb and Sordo hoping he can take points from Hirvonen.

Priority 4: Make sure that Ogier finish in front of Hirvonen in case Loeb doesn't score more points than Hirvonen, so that Ogier can act as backup challenge for the championship.

Priority 5: If nessesary ask Ogier to get in position between Latvala and Hirvonen to see how Ford will react - but only if Loeb is safely in front. The optimal would be if Latvala is let lose and Ford fall into that trap.

Priority 6: Make sure that Ogier and PSolberg take Powerstage points from Hirvonen - and hoping Sordo will do the same.

If all goes to plan (which is rarely does) Hirvonen will get somewhere between 4th and 6th position which will give Loeb a good points-margin and Citroën will seal the Manu Championship.

[Francis44]

Ogier will only win the championship if Loeb makes another mistake or the car fails on him again, which is unlikely since it seems Loeb drives even better under pressure.

[Plan9]

Another statistic than wins - and not to take anything away from Ogier, just a reminder. And where does this leave Hirvonen? Exactly where he is supposed to be, fourth:

STAGE WINS

Loeb, Sebastien (FR) 55
Latvala, Jari-Matti (FI) 51
Ogier, Sebastien (FR) 50
Hirvonen, Mikko (FI) 32
Solberg, Petter (NO) 26
Sordo, Dani(SP) 4
Andersson, Per-Gunnar (SE) 4
Ostberg, Mads (NO) 4
Ketomaa, Jari (FI) 1

(Statistics from Jonkka and wrc.com)

When you put it that way it looks like Latvala has had a difficult time (i.e. handing Australia, France results to Mikko). I guess that in rally like in any other profession what people should get and will get have to be separated to get what's best for the team. These decisions probably don't always seem fair to the outsider.

[tfp]

When you put it that way it looks like Latvala has had a difficult time (i.e. handing Australia, France results to Mikko). I guess that in rally like in any other profession what people should get and will get have to be separated to get what's best for the team. These decisions probably don't always seem fair to the outsider.

+1 :up: It may have been a season that JML will rather forget, but he has acted incredibly proffessionally, and thats a good thing to have on his CV for the future.

[Bobcat]

Quesnel: "Loeb ist unser Favorit!" :: rallye-magazin.de (http://www.rallye-magazin.de/rallyes/wm/nachrichten/news-detail/d/2011/10/16/quesnel-loeb-ist-unser-favorit/index.html)

[Bobcat]

MaxRally | News | Quesnel reveals background to team orders (http://www.maxrally.com/news/entry/quesnel_reveals_background_to_team_orders/)

[Bobcat]

Loeb on his tough season with Ogier: "He damaged my image."

Loeb: «Ogier a nui à mon image» - Rallye - WRC - L'EQUIPE.FR (http://www.lequipe.fr/Formule1/breves2011/20111107_100438_loeb-ogier-a-nui-a-mon-image.html)

[noel157]

I understand that Ogier has made up his mind, he has signed with VW Motorsport. It's from a good source so likely some truth in it.

[Rallyper]

I understand that Ogier has made up his mind, he has signed with VW Motorsport. It's from a good source so likely some truth in it.

So he will not compete for the WRDC in 2012 then? Maybe he is thinking VW will be competitive for the championship in 2013. He might look positive at the future, but still no one knows how competitive VW will be....

[N.O.T]

I understand that Ogier has made up his mind, he has signed with VW Motorsport. It's from a good source so likely some truth in it.

my sources say he signed with hyundai as test driver for the new accent so ask him again...

[Allyc85]

I understand that there is alot of B.S rumours at the moment and we should just wait and see ;)

[zephyr]

Citroën rallyes: ciao Quesnel et Ogier, hello Serieys et Hirvonen... | La Provence (http://www.laprovence.com/article/sports-region/citroen-rallyes-ciao-quesnel-et-ogier-hello-serieys-et-hirvonen)
Pretty much saying that Ogier will go to Ford for a year and that VW offered him 16 million Euros per year for 2 years , wich is approximatly the same amount they offered to Loeb and is twice as much as they earn with Citroën.
They are waiting for Ford to fund M-Sport for Ogier (salary or team budget, they don't say).
Quesnel will be replaced by Serieys (ex Dakkar Mitsubishi).

[noel157]

We shall see.

[kakus]

Citroën rallyes: ciao Quesnel et Ogier, hello Serieys et Hirvonen... | La Provence (http://www.laprovence.com/article/sports-region/citroen-rallyes-ciao-quesnel-et-ogier-hello-serieys-et-hirvonen)
Pretty much saying that Ogier will go to Ford for a year and that VW offered him 16 million Euros per year for 2 years , wich is approximatly the same amount they offered to Loeb and is twice as much as they earn with Citroën.
They are waiting for Ford to fund M-Sport for Ogier (salary or team budget, they don't say).
Quesnel will be replaced by Serieys (ex Dakkar Mitsubishi).

wrong translate.

Pas d'offre de VW à 16 millions d'Euros pour Ogier dans cette article.

Ogier will be more expensive pour VW if he beat Loeb next year. That's all.

[noel157]

We shall see.

Maybe soon.........

Sordo /Solberg in 2012?

[N.O.T]

Maybe soon.........

Sordo /Solberg in 2012?

more likely than Ogier...especially Solberg.

[tfp]

Maybe soon.........

Sordo /Solberg in 2012?

Sordo in VW? His mini days havent even properly started yet :)

[AndyRAC]

Sordo in VW? His mini days havent even properly started yet :)

True, however, the uncertainty over their finances can't help.......

[Langdale Forest]

my sources say he signed with hyundai as test driver for the new accent so ask him again...

no, he is going to Suzuki next year........

[noel157]

Sordo in VW? His mini days havent even properly started yet :)

No, I meant to replace Ogier at Citroen.

[tfp]

No, I meant to replace Ogier at Citroen.

I see, my mistake!

[noel157]

No worries.

[zephyr]

@kakus (http://www.motorsportforums.com/members/kakus-93464/)
You are right, I misread.
And french is my first language: shame on me.

[Bobcat]

I understand that Ogier has made up his mind, he has signed with VW Motorsport. It's from a good source so likely some truth in it.
I think we can only see Solberg with Mikkelsen moving to VW for the next year. The others will want a shot at the WRC title.