9/11 Ten Years On

[Knock-on]

Well, in 2 days’ time, we will reach the 10 year anniversary of one of the most defining days in our lifetimes.

10's of 10's of thousands of deaths later, after wars, conflicts and insurgencies, terrorist attacks and retribution, are we any closer to resolution?

10 years ago I could walk on a plane with as much shampoo as I wanted and without taking off my shoes. I could see a bag left on a train and nick it instead of crapping myself and think it a bit strange that someone would cover themself in the middle of summer from head to toe in black fabric without wondering if it's a terrorist.

10 years on, what are the outcomes of 9/11? There are rumours of discussions with Al Qaeda but have they really progressed their cause or not? If they have, does this just go to demonstrate that diplomacy is toothless and terrorism is mightier than both the pen and the sword?

Have the people of the West realised that our Governments are not the paragon of virtues we assumed they were when it comes to foreign policy. The phrase "not in my name" constantly springs to mind and it's not that I don't necessarily trust anything that any Government says but am coming from the view point that I actively distrust them.

On 9/11/2001 I was talking to a client that was evacuating from a tall building in Houston, we were trying to find a team of employees that were finishing off an implementation in the WTB and a friend was missing on a flight that may have been shot down by American Air Force pilots.

Yet when I look about at the children in my household, they are 10, 12 and 14. They know nothing about pre-9/11. To them this is normality. Let’s hope in 20 years’ time it becomes something from the history books, only really discussed by old gits like us proclaiming how we all knew where we were on 9/11/2001.

Remember the dead on all sides but plan for the future.

[Malbec]

Well, in 2 days’ time, we will reach the 10 year anniversary of one of the most defining days in our lifetimes.

10 years? It feels more like 10 months ago.

It will also be 6 months to the day since the earthquake in Japan. A poignant day.


10 years on, what are the outcomes of 9/11? There are rumours of discussions with Al Qaeda but have they really progressed their cause or not? If they have, does this just go to demonstrate that diplomacy is toothless and terrorism is mightier than both the pen and the sword?

Al Qaeda have failed. There has been a wave of uprisings across the Middle East against dictators just as they pushed for but the movements have been for democracy. Even the hardcore Islamic extremists in countries like Egypt see their future in terms of working within a democratic framework, not acting to destroy it.

Fewer and fewer Muslims see AQ as some kind of real alternative especially given their penchant for random violence on anyone they disagree with and no vision for how they intend to establish a future state. And there are fewer and fewer parts of the world where AQ can say that they still have control.


Have the people of the West realised that our Governments are not the paragon of virtues we assumed they were when it comes to foreign policy. The phrase "not in my name" constantly springs to mind and it's not that I don't necessarily trust anything that any Government says but am coming from the view point that I actively distrust them.

In Britain the realisation that our government does not always pursue a foreign policy based on best intention has been the biggest impact of 9/11 along with the steady erosion of our civil liberties in the name of security. We have always trusted that when we go to war it is for a good cause with strong evidence. Our participation in the Iraq war along with all the shenanigans running up to it have strongly weakened that trust. The military's failure to bring security to Basra despite the media mocking US attempts at bringing security to the rest of Iraq has also weakened our faith in the ability of the army.

[Dave B]

In some ways the terrorists have won. America was convinced - with plenty of help from Britain - to embark on a war with badly-defined aims which killed thousands of its own troops and brought its economy to its knees. Meanwhile the USA is crossed off the potential destination list of many holidaymakers due to the paranoid travel restrictions emposed on air passengers.

Saddam Hussain and may be gone, but looking at events in the Middle East over the last few months it's possible his power base would have been dramatically weakened anyway; Bin Laden's dead but he was little more than an ailing figurehead / bogeyman during his final few years.

I guess the only positive to come out of the whole sorry episode is that the US may at last be realising that it can't go around acting as the world's policeman any longer. :s

[00steven]

Ten years later and America is in shambles. But, I still remember the way Americans pulled together after the attacks. It's just ashame that it couldn't have lasted.

RIP to all those who perished. I know I'll never forget.

[schmenke]

9/11 achieved the long-term goal of Al Qaeda which is disruption of the economies of the U.S. and western countries. The death of thousands of lives was only a secondary goal of the attacks.

However, as with any "war" a sure way to end it is to deplete the foe of his resources. Defeating Al Qaeda is no different.
Unfortunately they are being funded by strategic allies to the U.S. and the rest of the world.
The situation continues to be an embarassing mess :( .

[Eki]

Al Qaeda have failed. There has been a wave of uprisings across the Middle East against dictators just as they pushed for but the movements have been for democracy. Even the hardcore Islamic extremists in countries like Egypt see their future in terms of working within a democratic framework, not acting to destroy it.

Actually, the said dictators like Saddam Hussein and Gaddafi were enemies of al Qaeda and hardcore Islamic extremists, so I wouldn't say al Qaeda has failed.

BBC NEWS | Programmes | File on 4 | CIA prisoners 'tortured' in Arab jails (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/file_on_4/4246089.stm)


A former CIA official has confirmed suspicions that dozens of terror suspects have been flown to jails in Middle Eastern countries where torture is routinely practised, and without reference to courts of law.
Michael Scheuer, who once headed the hunt for Osama Bin Laden and left the CIA last November after a 22-year career, said the practice, known as "extraordinary rendition", was seen by the US as a key tactic in its war on terror.


The former CIA officer acknowledged that some of the suspects sent to places such as Egypt could then be tortured.

But he said: "It wouldn't be us torturing them and I think there is a lot of Hollywood involved with our portrayal of torture in Egypt and Saudi Arabia.


It hears from a Canadian man called Maher Arar, who was stopped by US officials when travelling through New York's JFK airport in September 2002 and sent to Syria where he was held for a year. He says he was brutally tortured.


An Australian named Mamdouh Habib was sent to Egypt in October 2001 by US authorities after being captured in Pakistan.

He was held in Egypt for six months, and said he was subjected to extreme torture involving electric shocks, before he was sent onwards to Guantanamo.

CBS Frets Over 'Dark Stain' of Bush CIA's 'Troubling' Actions in Libya (http://www.mrc.org/biasalert/2011/20110904011338.aspx)


On Saturday's CBS Evening News, correspondent Barry Petersen filed a report which highlighted Human Rights Watch's analysis of government records in Libya which document that, during the Bush administration, the CIA sent prisoners to Libya as part of its renditioning program. Anchor Russ Mitchell saw the papers as potentially "troubling" as he introduced the report:

Overseas now, newly discovered documents in Libya suggest the regime of ousted dictator Muammar Qaddafi had a working relationship with the CIA. Barry Petersen in Tripoli tells us the once-secret papers could prove troubling.

[Bob Riebe]

Saddam Hussain and may be gone, but looking at events in the Middle East over the last few months it's possible his power base would have been dramatically weakened anyway; Bin Laden's dead but he was little more than an ailing figurehead / bogeyman during his final few years.
You are correct about Bin Laden, but there is nothing to support your supposition on Saddam.

[Rollo]

The Sep 11 attacks were motivated by a declared Fatwa which was originally published in 1998.

I think that this constitutes an analogue for a formal declaration of war:
Al Qaeda's 1998 Fatwa | PBS NewsHour | Feb. 23, 1998 | PBS (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1998.html)
I don't know about you but a formal declaration of war by a terrorist group, seems to be pretty well congruous to one by a foreign power.
OK, this wasn't a formal "military attack", but it still is an act of war according to the terms of the declaration.

The formal response specifically to Afghanistan was probably correct and even looking through newspaper articles on microfilm as I did yesterday (I got sidetracked whilst looking for something else), no-one condemned the beginning of Operation Enduring Freedom.
It still doesn't change the fact that the events of ten years ago were pure barbarism on the part of al-Qaeda, and I have nothing but contempt for them.


You are correct about Bin Laden, but there is nothing to support your supposition on Saddam.

No? Not even the balance of political conditions in Iraq pre-2003?

Iraq's Culture of Violence :: Middle East Quarterly (http://www.meforum.org/101/iraqs-culture-of-violence)
This fits into a larger context, as the Arab world is becoming increasingly inhospitable toward leaders who single-handedly make decisions that put the entire country at risk of poverty, sanctions, and isolation. Such leaders today have fewer followers than in the past, and their style is being discredited and undermined. The situations resulting from Libya's conflicts with the major powers, Sudan's internal and external conflicts, and the civil war in Algeria make strong cases for those in the Arab world who argue for democratization, openness, and a change in the way Arab states are run.

In their public discourse, many Middle Easterners still blame the West for many things that have gone wrong, including the suffering of the Iraqi people. But when Arabs discuss politics behind closed doors, they are fully aware of the crisis in leadership in the region. A historical experience with conflict, mistakes, and lost opportunities makes them more pragmatic and realistic than ever before. Behind the surface rhetoric and slogans, there is a deeper discourse that is at least beginning to come to terms with reality.
- June 2001 (This is a segment of the online copy of the Magazine Article I found)

Although it's safe to say that the tragedy of history doesn't play out in a vacuum and that all events are connected to what's gone on before, to assume that "there is nothing to support" the "supposition on Saddam" is silly.

Saddam was a Sunni in a predominantly Shia country. His ruling Ba'ath Party in the aftermath of the 2003 was met with such ferocity and anger that the Coalition Provisional Authority banned it outright.

The events of the Arab Spring of 2011 as this 2001 article sort of hints at were almost always in the offing; if Saddam had still been around, then there is no reason at all to suggest that he wouldn't have been deposed in the same way that Hosni Mubarak or Muammar Gaddafi have been.

[markabilly]

Jeffro Rollo, reading something that sounds high brow and then writing about it like some college prof who does not know the real world.....

Should have nuked them with some neutron bombs and then taken the oil, just like the Brits used to do when making the world safe for civilization. Except they did not have nukes and in WWI, all their men with any balls got killed off....

[Rollo]

Jeffro Rollo, reading something that sounds high brow and then writing about it like some college prof who does not know the real world.....

14 Million Americans unemployed; spending more than $1246bn on two wars? Sounds to me like the Broken Window Fallacy came true.
The real world eh? What a strange place. It sounds like a place where people do things without thinking through the consequences.


Should have nuked them with some neutron bombs and then taken the oil, just like the Brits used to do when making the world safe for civilization. Except they did not have nukes and in WWI, all their men with any balls got killed off....

That would have worked. :rolleyes: Who else would have tried to attack the United States in retaliation if this had been carried out?

[anthonyvop]

Funny how those on the Left blame the war for America's economic woes and yet they all kneel at the Altar of F.D.R. and the war which got us out of the great depression.

So which is it?

Take your time. You have until January 2013 to blame everybody else.

[Roamy]

Elect Donald Trump - Win the War take the oil- What is so hard about this!!

[Malbec]

Actually, the said dictators like Saddam Hussein and Gaddafi were enemies of al Qaeda and hardcore Islamic extremists, so I wouldn't say al Qaeda has failed.


Unless your argument is that AQ was pro-democracy I think its safe to say that those recent revolutions are indication that they failed. AQ wasn't just against dictatorships, it was for installing theocracies across the Middle East. The two are inseperable parts of AQ's doctrine.

AQ's call to arms to install a Muslim state during the Egyptian revolution would have been worrying if it happened 5-10years ago. In the event they actually sounded amusing bordering on pathetic given how they were completely ignored by the Egyptian public.

[Malbec]

But, I still remember the way Americans pulled together after the attacks. It's just ashame that it couldn't have lasted.

I thought the same thing in the aftermath of the attacks. The spirit among Americans of all ages, particularly the young who had felt they had never been tested unlike their older generations, was incredible.

I think one of Bush's biggest errors was not harnessing this energy for something positive. In merely concentrating on the military front he turned the reaction to 9/11 into something only fit young adults in the military could really contribute to. He could have established some kind of civilian corps too where people could volunteer, and use it to address problems both within the US and outside. This would also have had a lasting legacy.

[steveaki13]

I was 15 at the time and working on work experience I will never forget that day.

I too was talking to my young cousins about it and think it is something everyone remembers, but they were only 1 and 2 at the time, its amazing to believe people around now don't even remember those images and emotions that we all felt.

Although I was only 15, I watched silent for hours, and felt it just as everyone else did.

Well 10 years on and watching these documentarys again, and I remember all the images as clear as if it was last year.

Lets hope despite all the loss we have done enough to stop another attack on this scale.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well after spending half the night arguing with a guy who thinks Bush was behind 9-11 or at least, the US Gov't, I can say all this event did is question the sanity of many intelligent people who claim sanity who continue to buy in to the conspiracy theories that are the item with the black helicopter crowd.

9-11 was a horrible day, a day where the West was forced to deal with an entity that doesn't give a rat's ass about democracy, freedom or any other values we hold dear. This entity was in the shadows, and shot their bolt in one bad day. It has hit a few other nations but really, they are pin pricks in the final scheme except for the innocent lives lost. Where they did win is they have changed the psyche of government. But then again, like a man who discovers he has a terminal disease that can be managed, he manages to adapt and move on...except this disease isn't terminal to our society at all.......

[Eki]

Elect Donald Trump - Win the War take the oil- What is so hard about this!!
Foamy, you're fired!

[BDunnell]

Funny how those on the Left blame the war for America's economic woes and yet they all kneel at the Altar of F.D.R. and the war which got us out of the great depression.

So which is it?

Take your time. You have until January 2013 to blame everybody else.

Er... I don't think that war was only fought for economic reasons, unless you care to suggest otherwise.

[BDunnell]

Where they did win is they have changed the psyche of government.

And they have turned a lot of people into quivering wrecks, afraid of terrorism to such an extent that they are willing to tolerate any measures no matter how much they might impinge upon freedom (in its genuine sense) and human rights.

[Garry Walker]

I guess the only positive to come out of the whole sorry episode is that the US may at last be realising that it can't go around acting as the world's policeman any longer. :s I am not sure that is a positive development.


And they have turned a lot of people into quivering wrecks, afraid of terrorism to such an extent that they are willing to tolerate any measures no matter how much they might impinge upon freedom (in its genuine sense) and human rights.I guess that is better than getting blown up by our multi-cultural arab friends.

[F1boat]

This was a very sad day and I think that the most important thing is to remember the innocent victims, not to argue about politics. Rest in peace...

[steveaki13]

This was a very sad day and I think that the most important thing is to remember the innocent victims, not to argue about politics. Rest in peace...

And the 340 odd Firmen who bravely went into those buildings and did all they could and got many people out.

[Dave B]

And the 340 odd Firmen who bravely went into those buildings and did all they could and got many people out.

And who, inadvertently, caused several of my more simple Facebook friends to repost a completely stupid and untrue status about them being "banned" from the anniversary memorial.

[ioan]

Actually, the said dictators like Saddam Hussein and Gaddafi were enemies of al Qaeda and hardcore Islamic extremists, so I wouldn't say al Qaeda has failed.

Agreed.

10 years later the westerners did bugger all in the right direction.

Decades ago the Shah of Iran was deposed and the country turned into an extremist Muslim stronghold with help from the US
Then later the same happened in Afghanistan where the US did heavily support the Taliban.
Iraq has been turned into extremist mulslims' playground.
Libya with great help from NATO is being also turned into a radical muslim nightmare even though it was a fairly stable country, just like Iraq.
Egypt is in turmoil and will also head the radical extremist way if life level drops.

Most of the above happened after 9/11 and shows how stupid our rulers are, or maybe their hidden agendas are not written for peace in this world.

[ioan]

This was a very sad day and I think that the most important thing is to remember the innocent victims, not to argue about politics. Rest in peace...

The best thing is to learn from the past and use it to make the future better, something at which humanity is failing right now.

[DanicaFan]

Here is a great tribute to that day from Budweiser. It is very well done. Kudos to Budweiser.... Very touching..

EUG8BPHCRMw

[Dave B]

Here is a great tribute to that day from Budweiser. It is very well done. Kudos to Budweiser.... Very touching..



Kudos for using a tragedy as a marketing opportunity? Piss off Budweiser and take your gnat's piss with you.

[Mark]

Quite. Shameful.

[DanicaFan]

Kudos for using a tragedy as a marketing opportunity? Piss off Budweiser and take your gnat's piss with you.

You are clueless. They only aired this commercial one time on tv so they wouldnt make financial gains but the wanted to make a tribute. I think its great.

[Dave B]

Showing it only once doesn't excuse them, they still wanted their branding associated with this otherwise why bother. If they wanted to do something nice without financial gain, they could have donated to a charity and kept quiet about it (maybe they did, we'd obviously never know!). But exploting a terrorist attack as a marketing exercise is pathetic.

What was the Monty Python joke about making love in a canoe? :p

[Daniel]

Showing it only once doesn't excuse them, they still wanted their branding associated with this otherwise why bother. If they wanted to do something nice without financial gain, they could have donated to a charity and kept quiet about it (maybe they did, we'd obviously never know!). But exploting a terrorist attack as a marketing exercise is pathetic.

+1

[Eki]

They just said on TV news that the "War Against Terrorism" has cost the US 4,500 billion dollars ($1500 per every American). 7000 soldiers dead and 600,000 others.

I'm sure if that money would have been put to improve border security and intelligence gathering, there would have been much less people dead.

[DBell]

They just said on TV news that the "War Against Terrorism" has cost the US 4,500 billion dollars ($1500 per every American). 7000 soldiers dead and 600,000 others.

I'm sure if that money would have been put to improve border security and intelligence gathering, there would have been much less people dead.

Yes, I'm sure if we had left Bin Laden and Al Qaeda alone and let them grow stronger that we'd all be better off. :rolleyes: I doubt the death numbers would be much different except more of them would be Americans and other Westerners. Perhaps when you go fact finding you should look deeper than TV News. Intelligence is only useful if you're willing to act on it.

[DanicaFan]

Some of you guys are so off base with this tribute, its sad. I think its a great video and some of you are the only ones that dont like it. Something wrong there.

[Eki]

Yes, I'm sure if we had left Bin Laden and Al Qaeda alone and let them grow stronger that we'd all be better off. :rolleyes: I doubt the death numbers would be much different except more of them would be Americans and other Westerners. Perhaps when you go fact finding you should look deeper than TV News. Intelligence is only useful if you're willing to act on it.
Yes, I'm not an American, so I don't understand why the life of an American is worth more than the life of a person of a different nationality. You also seem to forget that those who carried out the 9/11 attacks trained and lived in the US, not in Iraq or even Afghanistan. None of them even were an Iraqi or an Afghan.

[DBell]

Yes, I'm not an American, so I don't understand why the life of an American is worth more than the life of a person of a different nationality. You also seem to forget that those who carried out the 9/11 attacks trained and lived in the US, not in Iraq or even Afghanistan. None of them even were an Iraqi or an Afghan.

I can't even begin to try to understand the logic of this post. Probably because logic doesn't enter the equation.

So what are you saying? That we should have attacked the countries that these terrorist were from? We didn't go after them because of their nationality, but because of the organization they affiliated themselves with, which was located in Afghanistan. It would have been difficult to go to, say, Hawaii and fight Al Qaeda effectively from there from there.

Or are you saying that we should have done NOTHING after being attacked? Just say "Oh well, be sure that it doesn't happen again."? That is such a ridiculous train of thought that I will go no further on this. I'm sure that if you had been around in 1938, you would have been a big supporter of Neville Chamberlain.

[DBell]

Eki, I don't often post here in Chit Chat because it's often about politics and ideology and I don't have much use for either. But when I saw the thread title and, given the day it is, I decided to take a look. I would have hoped that on the anniversary of the terrorist attack and with respect to all who died and were affected by it, that you would have the courtesy, for one day, to refrain from chiming in with your anti American views and blaming America for the terrorist attacks. I should have known that you would be able to STFU for even one day and would feel compelled to spread your crap. You are truly a classless individual.

[00steven]

Yes, I'm not an American, so I don't understand why the life of an American is worth more than the life of a person of a different nationality. You also seem to forget that those who carried out the 9/11 attacks trained and lived in the US, not in Iraq or even Afghanistan. None of them even were an Iraqi or an Afghan.

Pathetic.

[race aficionado]

This from a New Yorker:

I am one that totally understands that this event was a life changer for us all - a devastating one - but I cringe when the day comes and most of the media just swallows it and regurgitates it, year after year.

10 years ago today our day was overcome by terrorists. Every year thereafter by the media. Always remember, never forget but not make a spectacle of a day that should be held in reverence.

And I will respectfully add to my rant:
And as sad and devastating as this event was, we as humanity are oblivious to the fact that more than 3,000 children died of hunger in the world yesterday and more than 3,000 children will die today of unnecessary hunger and tomorrow the same will occur and the day after that . . . . let's go to war for those children but not with bombs and bullets but with awareness that all life is precious - yes, including those that were lost tragically 10 years ago in this sad day of remembrance.

RIP

[Bob Riebe]

And as sad and devastating as this event was, we as humanity are oblivious to the fact that more than 3,000 children died of hunger in the world yesterday and more than 3,000 children will die today of unnecessary hunger and tomorrow the same will occur and the day after that . . . . let's go to war for those children but not with bombs and bullets but with awareness that all life is precious - yes, including those that were lost tragically 10 years ago in this sad day of remembrance.

That is making what happened ten years ago a foot-note to a political agenda.

The one thing this thread has revealed is biases and prejudices of mankind at its normal level of functioning. It is neither good nor bad, simply man does not change and life goes on.

[Bob Riebe]

Here is a great tribute to that day from Budweiser.

I fully agree.

[Rollo]

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/01L2cwk6KU2WV/350x.jpg

"Living well is the best revenge." - George Herbert

I think that it was good to see NFL games on September 11. Seriously, if you want to show the world that the events of that day haven't damaged the America psyche, then someone should declare it a national holiday and every year host NFL and baseball games and NASCAR.

That'd give the ol' two fingered salute to terrorism I think.

[00steven]

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/01L2cwk6KU2WV/350x.jpg

"Living well is the best revenge." - George Herbert

I think that it was good to see NFL games on September 11. Seriously, if you want to show the world that the events of that day haven't damaged the America psyche, then someone should declare it a national holiday and every year host NFL and baseball games and NASCAR.

That'd give the ol' two fingered salute to terrorism I think.

The NFL did a very nice job today, imo.

[Eki]

So what are you saying? That we should have attacked the countries that these terrorist were from?
No, I'm saying you should have improved your air line security, border control and internal security, so that no one could again live in the US for a long time learning to fly and plotting terrorist attacks. It would have just been enough to keep the terrorists out of the US. Now you just chased them from Afghanistan to some place else. And killing Osama bin Laden is not the end of terrorism.

[The Black Knight]

Ten years later and America is in shambles. But, I still remember the way Americans pulled together after the attacks. It's just ashame that it couldn't have lasted.

RIP to all those who perished. I know I'll never forget.

RIP to the 1.5 million people killed in Iraq or the 50,000-ish people killed in Afghanistan over the past ten years. They are the real tragedy. I don't condone 9/11, I hate that it happened, but let us put into perspective what a real tragedy is, shall we?

Oh yeah, RIP all those killed in the Gulf War and Vietnam as well. Finally RIP All those 3000 that died in 9/11, by far and away the smallest of all those tragedies, the only one which the US didn't inflict upon others.

I don't want to cause anyone offence, 9/11 was a tragedy, but a small one when compared to the innocent lives that have been lost at the hands of the US in the last 50 years alone.

[Daniel]

RIP to the 1.5 million people killed in Iraq or the 50,000-ish people killed in Afghanistan over the past ten years. They are the real tragedy. I don't condone 9/11, I hate that it happened, but let us put into perspective what a real tragedy is, shall we?

Oh yeah, RIP all those killed in the Gulf War and Vietnam as well. Finally RIP All those 3000 that died in 9/11, by far and away the smallest of all those tragedies, the only one which the US didn't inflict upon others.

I don't want to cause anyone offence, 9/11 was a tragedy, but a small one when compared to the innocent lives that have been lost at the hands of the US in the last 50 years alone.

The day Americans understand this is the day the world moves forward.

[Roamy]

RIP to the 40,000 Mexicans who have died over our appetite for drugs!!

[Eki]

RIP to the 40,000 Mexicans who have died over our appetite for drugs!!
Yes, drugs kill a lot more people than terrorism. You just don't see it in the breaking news.

[00steven]

RIP to the 1.5 million people killed in Iraq or the 50,000-ish people killed in Afghanistan over the past ten years. They are the real tragedy. I don't condone 9/11, I hate that it happened, but let us put into perspective what a real tragedy is, shall we?

Oh yeah, RIP all those killed in the Gulf War and Vietnam as well. Finally RIP All those 3000 that died in 9/11, by far and away the smallest of all those tragedies, the only one which the US didn't inflict upon others.

I don't want to cause anyone offence, 9/11 was a tragedy, but a small one when compared to the innocent lives that have been lost at the hands of the US in the last 50 years alone.

Well the thread was about 9/11. War is terrible but we had to respond to the killing of innocent people.

[anthonyvop]

RIP to the 1.5 million people killed in Iraq

That silly number has been widely de-bunked.

The number is closer to 150,000 with most of them being combatants and insurgents and the vast majority of civilian deaths being at the hands of the Iranian supported insurgents.

Move along.

[The Black Knight]

Well the thread was about 9/11. War is terrible but we had to respond to the killing of innocent people.

I'm sure they were responding to yers as well.


That silly number has been widely de-bunked.

The number is closer to 150,000 with most of them being combatants and insurgents and the vast majority of civilian deaths being at the hands of the Iranian supported insurgents.

Move along.

I've heard lots and lots of figures but really the figure isn't the point here.

Anyhoo I shall leave this thread as it ultimately isn't about making a point about American Foreign Policy. The dead, ALL dead, deserve the same respect. RIP those that passed away in 911.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Ah yes...3000 people minding their own business isn't a tragedy...but people dying in a war zone is? All death by terrorism and war to noncombantants is wrong. Great..we can agree to it, but Americans for the first time in modern times had an attack in their heartland and they are not supposed to grieve? Ah yes...but to do so means they might wave the flag and have pride. God forbid they love their country eh?

Some people make me sick......the point is is their tragedy and the people who perpetrated it did so because they disapprove of the western value system the Americans propogated 200 odd years ago (freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom from persecution). That attack on 9-11 10 years ago was against the US, but was really against all of the western world. Read the manifesto's of these zealots. Mock the Americans if you like, but you just reveal your prejudice and lack of understanding to what this all is. What happened in Iraq and Afghanistan you can quibble with. Afghanistan was a necessary reaction and all of us for the most part saw that for what it was. The Taliban supported and protected Bin Laden's organization, and they were corrupt and a blight on the people of that nation. People there ARE better for them having gone. We have paid one hell of a price to get the country to where it is now, and there is no benefits for any of the Western Nations for having been there, just alturistic ones. So spare me the bile over what is going on there. Iraq is different..and argue all you want, but Hussein was knocking off 25k a year in people in some of the most creative ways for his own entertainment. Muslims kill more Muslims than the Americans ever did in most of these nations. All you guys who yell about the Americans are awful silent on Syria's killing of their own people. I guess that missed your purview when you are on the anti Israeli kick? Ah yes....threads like this do reveal much....

[Eki]

The Taliban supported and protected Bin Laden's organization, and they were corrupt and a blight on the people of that nation. People there ARE better for them having gone.
Are they gone? News from the website of the Finnish Defense Forces:

Maavoimat > Ajankohtaista > Maavoimien tiedotteet "Kapinallishyökkäys Kabulissa (http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/portal/puolustusvoimat.fi/!ut/p/c5/vZHNkqIwFIWfpR-gTUKQkKUNMQQhyl8rbCigFf9QWlSUpx-qejE1i3HVxb3Lc8_9qs4BCej3lN13ZXbdnU_ZEaxAoqVc0XTLh ojOZ-4HFHMHfhJngQyhgSVYQTUN9s9adIfO33e-lI4tXFK0rsNaGW0d95KIkDVKyNouDBMnuHitND8EKij6nHpsIq nxPY3f-l_JKxqHr3WIfnQNsxmTXEV8YahQBGZEw4hgHmkv_XOf_OjwPzO BIAYJ-evnSOq9P1wo3J_2BwiEv5jGaxYejtXnPhxLGZA1YF98wL703-3LBskur0ZtUY3giBAFKRhhpFKKNQ2DZR7fHqwRJWN-agfVbZvdKaskNpZl25r8GSwexO3qfZJvCP1WvojjGePId7HV4D gaVzAK9HpcXopVdRY4NtrsqqqHqNuIjG5cMV8_s1sebGWsXc80 O2yNokWWLFJHHHVOrMJevmveYTZN7bzUVbM8ec7aonFVqI2Cm_ xhBkc809U3IK1ztQZ1da-Zb3Wrf3Y9-QPzRjzk/dl3/d3/L2dBISEvZ0FBIS9nQSEh/?pcid=5a28f7804850fb38afc1af5c6ba8100e)


Kapinallishyökkäys Kabulissa – suomalaiset rauhanturvaajat kunnossa

Räjähtein ja singoin aseistautuneet kapinalliset ovat hyökänneet ulkomaalaiskohteita vastaan Afganistanin pääkaupungissa Kabulissa.

Paikallista aikaa noin kello 13.45 alkaneen hyökkäyksen kohteina ovat olleet ilmeisesti ainakin Yhdysvaltain suurlähetystö sekä Nato-johtoisten ISAF-joukkojen esikunta.

Kaikki Kabuliin sijoitetut suomalaiset rauhanturvaajat on tavoitettu, ja he ovat kunnossa.

Translation: Rebel Attack in Kabul - Finnish Peacekeepers Safe

Rebels armed with explosives and RPGs have attacked against foreign targets in Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan. The targets of the attack that started about 13:45 local time were apparently at least the US embassy and the head quarters of the NATO lead ISAF forces. All the Finnish peacekeepers in Kabul have been reached and they are OK.

The Afghans fought off the British, then the Soviets, I see no reason why they wouldn't fight off the foreigners that are there now.



Hussein was knocking off 25k a year in people in some of the most creative ways for his own entertainment.
Do you have any evidence on that?

[DexDexter]

To me people here just like to bash Americans, no matter what the topic. 9/11 was a terrible act of terror against innocent civilians, that's it. So what if Americans are responsible for many things, almost all nations are. Look into your country's past and surprise, surprise, you'll find horrible things committed by your ancestors.

[anthonyvop]

Yes, drugs kill a lot more people than terrorism. You just don't see it in the breaking news.

I do. Everyday. But then again I don't live in Finland

[anthonyvop]

The dead, ALL dead, deserve the same respect.

No they don't!

Does Stalin deserve as much respect as Mother Teresa?

Does Mao deserve as much respect as Einstein?

I know it will upset your warm and fuzzy feeling but some people are just bad!

[Eki]

No they don't!

Does Stalin deserve as much respect as Mother Teresa?

Does Mao deserve as much respect as Einstein?

I know it will upset your warm and fuzzy feeling but some people are just bad!
Depends on who you ask. Stalin was recently voted for the greatest Russian of all times (even when he was a Georgian and not a Russian) and many elderly Russians miss him. Mao is still highly revered in China by many and people queue to see his embalmed body.