Inquiry: McRae Flying Too Low And Too Fast

[themo]

Former rally world champion Colin McRae MBE crashed his helicopter because he was flying too low and too fast in the wrong place, a Fatal Accident Inquiry has found.The inquiry found 39-year-old McRae had undertaken the flight that killed him and three others without a valid pilot’s licence.

McRae crashed his helicopter on 15 September 2007 in a wooded area, Mouse Valley, near to his home in Lanark. He died along with his son Johnny, aged five, and two family friends: six year-old Ben Porcelli and Graeme Duncan, who was 37.

The FAI has found that McRae lost control of his helicopter after entering Mouse Valley when there were no “operational or logistical reasons” to do so.

The helicopter deviated from its path and collided with trees. McRae wasn’t able to recover control of the aircraft because he was flying too fast and too low.

Sheriff Nikola Stewart concluded:“For a private pilot such as Mr McRae, lacking the necessary training, experience or requirement to do so, embarking upon such demanding, low level flying in such difficult terrain, was imprudent, unreasonable and contrary to the principles of good airmanship.”

The FAI found that McRae, the youngest man ever to win the World Rally Championships drivers title with his victory for the Subaru team in 1995, didn’t hold a valid flying licence at the time of the crash and therefore should not have been flying the aircraft.

Video recordings of the flight had been taken by passenger Graeme Duncan on a video camera he used inside the helicopter.

The footage demonstrated that McRae had consistently flown the aircraft at unnecessarily low heights throughout the fatal flight.

[Jake Stephens]

God love his family who have to read this.

[Juha_Koo]

Even though I respect Colin's achievements on rally stages, as an aviation enthusiast I can't tell how saddened and disappointed I am to read this. The accident was totally avoidable and only happened because of pilot's very bad judgement and reckless flying. :(

[N.O.T]

all rescpect is lost...

[GigiGalliNo1]

It sucks to hear this ...

[GigiGalliNo1]

But it's not like he purposely did this!! :(

[Bazza2541]

Nothing like leaving the dead to rest in peace.
As far as it goes, nobody can really know what happened. Much less a 'jobsworth expert' paid to find fault.

[janvanvurpa]

I said this at the time from reports all round.
And to put it very mildly was shat upon.
I tried to couch what I said it reasonable terms, stressed that the military, with basically unlimited funds ---since the mony comes from taxpayers---train and train and train and train their pilots---and still they frequently crash their helicopters...

McRae had driven well, but there was a huge amount of contemptuousness for those around him lurking not very far below the surface which we saw flare up---tooo frequently in my book considering how little time TV crews shoot "talking head shots". And I said and repeat--it is one thing to drive like you want in a car with one person who is fully cognizant of the dangers---and in a car with a carefully designed and built cage.
And we saw that at times he clearly didn't care if the car was destroied.

It is quite another to be do aerobatics and playing the fool in quote "deteriorating weather conditions" in a helicopter you have as a toy, jerking the thing around just to scare a couple of boys and a neighbor----and not have enough sense of responsibility to not kill them all.

So as a driver...GOOD.

As a human----bad.

[N.O.T]

As a human----bad.

thats a very mild expression...it good to forget people like him as fast as possible.

[Juha_Koo]

Nothing like leaving the dead to rest in peace.
As far as it goes, nobody can really know what happened. Much less a 'jobsworth expert' paid to find fault.

I'm sure the accident investigators know what happened, especially with the video evidence they had. Great mysteries have been solved only using voice and data recordings. Now they even had a video and the wreckage and impact damage was visible, and not for example in deep sea. Accident investigators are not the police nor the tribunal. They never search guilty ones - they search reasons why something happened. It could have been mechanical failure. In this case it was pilot error.

[janvanvurpa]

I'm sure the accident investigators know what happened, especially with the video evidence they had. Great mysteries have been solved only using voice and data recordings. Now they even had a video and the wreckage and impact damage was visible, and not for example in deep sea. Accident investigators are not the police nor the tribunal. They never search guilty ones - they search reasons why something happened. It could have been mechanical failure. In this case it was pilot error.

Jooooo typical Finnish understatement.
There were also at the time plenty of witnesses.
The thing is it is not like Colin was unaware that he had crashed CARS---the thing he had ages more experience driving-----plenty of times. And he had of course seen what piles of scrap rediculously strong rally cars turn into with just a little error.

And anybody who has ever just looked at helicopters knows how lightly built, and how simply exposed you----and any unfortunate passengers are.
It doesn't take much intelligence or imagination to think about the consequences of a major blunder in a helicopter...

If he had killed only himself in a hot-dogging accident I would not criticize, I have had several personal and family friends die in light aircraft accidents.
But to kill his son and another boy just showing off so much he lost control.....I really had no words then and no words now strong enough.


(For a kid 5 or 6 or 8 just flying in a light plane is exciting enough---I can recall when I did at that age---BIG EYES!!!!)

[N.O.T]

If he was a rich guy with a different name everybody would wish him good riddance to hell for leading 2 minors and an adult to a horrible death...

and rightly so...

I feel sorry that such a legend of our sport had such a personality.

[Iskald]

If he was a rich guy with a different name everybody would wish him good riddance to hell for leading 2 minors and an adult to a horrible death...

and rightly so...

I feel sorry that such a legend of our sport had such a personality.

The man is dead. He can`t defend himself. And you are stamping on his grave.

This thread is in my opinion absolutely pointless!

[N.O.T]

This thread is in my opinion absolutely pointless!

i agree with that...

[Mark]

Yes he's dead, but that doesn't mean lessons should not be learned. Flying without a licence is simply unacceptable, but the price he and his family paid for it was far too high.

[tfp]

Former rally world champion Colin McRae MBE crashed his helicopter because he was flying too low and too fast in the wrong place, a Fatal Accident Inquiry has found.The inquiry found 39-year-old McRae had undertaken the flight that killed him and three others without a valid pilot’s licence.



McRae crashed his helicopter on 15 September 2007 in a wooded area, Mouse Valley, near to his home in Lanark. He died along with his son Johnny, aged five, and two family friends: six year-old Ben Porcelli and Graeme Duncan, who was 37.

The FAI has found that McRae lost control of his helicopter after entering Mouse Valley when there were no “operational or logistical reasons” to do so.

The helicopter deviated from its path and collided with trees. McRae wasn’t able to recover control of the aircraft because he was flying too fast and too low.

Sheriff Nikola Stewart concluded:“For a private pilot such as Mr McRae, lacking the necessary training, experience or requirement to do so, embarking upon such demanding, low level flying in such difficult terrain, was imprudent, unreasonable and contrary to the principles of good airmanship.”

The FAI found that McRae, the youngest man ever to win the World Rally Championships drivers title with his victory for the Subaru team in 1995, didn’t hold a valid flying licence at the time of the crash and therefore should not have been flying the aircraft.

Video recordings of the flight had been taken by passenger Graeme Duncan on a video camera he used inside the helicopter.

The footage demonstrated that McRae had consistently flown the aircraft at unnecessarily low heights throughout the fatal flight.

What a load of pointless bulls**t.

What were they trying to do by releasing that? Teach him a lesson? Good luck with that one. :rolleyes:


The man is dead. He can`t defend himself. And you are stamping on his grave.

This thread is in my opinion absolutely pointless!

You have spoken more sense in four sentances than they have in that entire speech. Thankyou :up:

:up: Thumbs up for Colin Mcrae :champion:

Gone but NEVER forgotten.




d--(o_O)--b

[slorydn1]

I agree that if he was not licensed to do so than he should never have been at the controls of that aircraft....period. The manner in which he is alleged to have been operating it becomes moot at that point-he never should have been operating it to start with, not at any speed or altitude.

Mark is right-we all can learn from these things-and agencies like the FAI there or NTSB here in the states are there to do just that-find out what caused a crash then report it so all of us can learn from it. So I have no problem with them releasing their findings, there are lessons to be learned from them.

All that being said everyone who is so ready to bash him forget 2 very important points.

1) He's Human-and all humans do some dumb things every once in a while. We make mistakes. Show me one who doesn't and I'll show you a Cyborg. Should he have used better judgement? Sure-you'll never get an argument from me that says other wise.

2) He's dead-he paid the ultimate price for his transgressions. There is nothing more that a court can do to him that's any worse than that. I hate the fact that he took his young son and a friend with him, they didn't deserve to die. But I hate the FACT, not the person. "Hating" on him isnt going to change anything,it's not going to bring the other victims back. So really, about the only "pointless" posts in this thread are the one's that denigrate him as a person. He was a great driver that made a stupid human mistake, and paid for it with his life. And yes, while making that mistake his actions led to the deaths of other people, which makes it most unfortunate. Had he survived the crash himself he would have been guilty of neglegent homicide-a crime that in most jurisdictions would have had a moderate prison sentence attached to it. As such he paid a much heavier price than that.

That said, I'm sure everyone has an opinion. Everyone is free to voice their opinion. I applaud almost everyone for not directly going after another poster in voicing their opinion. Go after the post, not the poster. A few have gotten close to that line, so be careful. Other than tha good job so far :up:

[Tomi]

What a load of pointless bulls**t.

What were they trying to do by releasing that? Teach him a lesson? Good luck with that one. :rolleyes:

Its good they released the repport, if there is other morons out there, they might think twice before they fly without licence and killing children.

[Gregor-y]

As sad as it is McRae was always a bit reckless in the cars and it shouldn't be too surprising he was reckless elsewhere. I can't say it changes any of my opinions other than to emphasize the consistency of the man.

[Barreis]

Man is dead and that's it.

[N.O.T]

I think most of us who think bad about him is because they were other people involved and the fact they were minors adds to that....If they were only adults in the helicopter i think the reactions would be far less "strict" towards him because as an adult you can always say "Cut the %&^$^ man" or voice your objection towards stupid behaviours... but a child is a child...

Nobody judges him for doing stupid things....we are motorsport fans and the basis of motorsport (especially rallying) is doing TOTALLY stupid things in a controlled envinoment (going 100-120 Mph through forests isn't exactly sane). we Judge him because he did something stupid and some people involved who payed the price ALSO didn't have the choice to say STOP.

As i said would you "support" (not literally since none approves what he did) him if he was a rich bussinesman ???

The fact that the report doesn't try to cover any of the facts can only benefit everyone.

The fact that he was a legend of the sport cannot be taken away by anything in the world.... but the fact that he CHOOSE to leave this world like that, taking innocent people with him tells a lot about his character and that also is something it cannot change no matter how many people he made happy through his driving and achievements.

[J4MIE]

Can't believe some of the stuff I am reading here!! :confused:

The investigation had to take place, do you think it would just be left as "oh it was an accident", have you ever heard of that happening with any other sort of air crash? Journalists are only publishing this to make a headline (as I read on another forum). Unbelievable.

"The fundamental purpose of investigating accidents is to determine the circumstances and causes of the accident with a view to the preservation of life and the avoidance of accidents in the future; it is not to apportion blame or liability." From the AAIB website.


My personal opinion is that, indeed, he made a mistake. Big time. I can see how you could quite easily go out and go and have a bit of fun enjoying yourself in your 'toy' even though you shouldn't really do it, like probably most of us have in cars at one time or another.

HOWEVER, while you can quite easily go out and do this yourself, it is absolutely unforgivable that he did this when he had kids in with him. Totally out of order, and without a license?? Incredible. Also irresponsible to the rest of the family that he has left behind, and the relatives of those also killed.

Unfortunately I agree with NOT, it has spoiled the memories I had of him rallying.

[tfp]

That said, I'm sure everyone has an opinion. Everyone is free to voice their opinion. I applaud almost everyone for not directly going after another poster in voicing their opinion. Go after the post, not the poster. A few have gotten close to that line, so be careful. Other than tha good job so far :up:

:up: I respect that 100%, and I respect the fairness in moderating("Everyone is free to voice their opinion"), thank you :) (And I dont mean that in a sarcastic way!)

I know he made mistakes, and I'm sure if he could take it all back, he would.
I just find it deeply saddening that a lot (not all) people have such a low opinion of him.

[Bazza2541]

Can't believe some of the stuff I am reading here!! :confused:

The investigation had to take place, do you think it would just be left as "oh it was an accident", have you ever heard of that happening with any other sort of air crash? Journalists are only publishing this to make a headline (as I read on another forum). Unbelievable.

"The fundamental purpose of investigating accidents is to determine the circumstances and causes of the accident with a view to the preservation of life and the avoidance of accidents in the future; it is not to apportion blame or liability." From the AAIB website.


My personal opinion is that, indeed, he made a mistake. Big time. I can see how you could quite easily go out and go and have a bit of fun enjoying yourself in your 'toy' even though you shouldn't really do it, like probably most of us have in cars at one time or another.

HOWEVER, while you can quite easily go out and do this yourself, it is absolutely unforgivable that he did this when he had kids in with him. Totally out of order, and without a license?? Incredible. Also irresponsible to the rest of the family that he has left behind, and the relatives of those also killed.

Unfortunately I agree with NOT, it has spoiled the memories I had of him rallying.

A licence is just a bit of paper, it's not as if he wasn't qualified, just out of date. In my experience all licences do is give credibility to ijits.

[janvanvurpa]

A licence is just a bit of paper, it's not as if he wasn't qualified, just out of date. In my experience all licences do is give credibility to ijits.

I agree with the bit about licences to a degree. Hell i've raced under Canadian various US, Swedish and French licences and held driver's licences all over the place..

But not only was whatever licence he held expired, he was in fact not "qualified' in the helicopter he was so recklessly flying.

Separately, a two fold thought: why do some people seem compelled to defend the PERSON McRae who has done this horrible thing---and which as we have seen, was often so quick to show disrespect for those all around like the mechanics and his co-drivers and the car designers, and defend the person as if they knew him as a personal friend?

And why do we have to idolize drivers--or sport figures in general and imagine that they are necessarily "nice people" or like a good mate?

Nobody can argue that Colin was a fantastically fun driver to watch driving, especially in his blue Subaru days.....

But that has nothing to do with him as a person.

Why should it?

Nothing can erase memories of his days in the Legacy in Finland, or the Impreza in San Remo....but that was the driver..

This tragedy---an entirely pointless tragedy ----- I believe was entirely in character.

[Mark]

I think like so many who excel in Motorsport they almost must have a flawed personality which does lead to incidents such as this.

Air crashes are not like car crashes they must be investigated and any blame apportioned.

NOT and J4MIE have said it all here.

[J4MIE]

A licence is just a bit of paper, it's not as if he wasn't qualified, just out of date. In my experience all licences do is give credibility to ijits.

That's a fair point but if I were to drive after my driving license expires and have an accident involving others, I assume that I would be in quite a lot of trouble. "Just out of date" wouldn't cut it. I would be expecting jail time.

[Nornbugger]

But not only was whatever licence he held expired, he was in fact not "qualified' in the helicopter he was so recklessly flying.

.

I cant disagree with any of your other points, but I have read in other places that he had been qualified on this Helicopter but it was basicaly a paper work error that let it lapse, I'll try and find links but maybe its just fanciful thinking from a fan?

One thing is sure, 2 adults were up there, and 2 kids, the adults both failed the kids, that the 2 kids where killed by big boys playing with a big toy is unforgivable.

[Doug Woods]

Excellent thread. One of the best ever on this forum.

Not often that I agree with JVL, but he has nailed it perfectly.

Those of us who have been around rallying for a long time understand that sometimes the stars of our sport are often not star material outside of the car.

[Barreis]

Leave the dead man in peace.

[bassist]

I`ve sat back, and read this thread in amazement. I would suggest this be the last post on this matter in respect to all those that tragically lost their lives. Our thoughts should remain with the families.

[Mark]

Sorry but no. Just because someone has died, and perhaps especially, we should consider why and what we can learn from it.

[ste898]

If he was a rich guy with a different name everybody would wish him good riddance to hell for leading 2 minors and an adult to a horrible death...

and rightly so...

I feel sorry that such a legend of our sport had such a personality.

Once again NOT you are talking utter ****e

You know nothing of what happened apart from what these so called no all have said

Colin McRae is a LEGEND and always will be in my eyes

Part of rallying died that day!!!!!!

[bassist]

Sorry but no. Just because someone has died, and perhaps especially, we should consider why and what we can learn from it.
Your call ( As a moderator I presume) But I disagree with you.

[Harveytee.]

I know there were quite a few people who went to that inquiry, helicopter pilots, and others who had flown with him and all know how good Colin was as a pilot. The thing is we see helicopter joy rides where helicopters take off, fly round and land again. It looks as if that’s all the helicopter can do, when in fact the helicopter that Colin had was much more than a toy and was capable of much more, and well within a safety envelope. When someone is very proficient at something and others who know little about it see that someone perform it can be mind blowing. After a while the onlooker will begin to understand and see the skill involved. Then, it doesn’t become mind blowing and becomes normal.

I know the very area where this happened, I’ve been there and more. There is a very good case for saying if he was higher then whatever happened to the aircraft then it could well have been corrected. The main thing from this enquiry is they don’t know what happened to the craft so they put it down to Colin in the absence of that information. They done the same thing when a military Chinook crashed into the isle of mull, blamed the pilots for flying too low. It took 15 or so years to reverse that. One thing for sure, I have absolutely no doubt, whatever happened to this helicopter the man to correct it, if possible to do so, was flying that craft that very day. Helicopters are made to fly just above the ground, it’s what they do. Further more, the tragic flight ended less than 200 yards from the landing area and that would be normal for the helicopter to be that low at that point as Colin stayed in the edge of the valley. Another thing, for some strange reason wind direction was not mentioned. Colin may well have taken that route over the trees to head into the wind.

Finally to say there was no operational or logistical reasons to fly through the valley is outrageous, they were on a pleasure flight, not a taxi doing a detour to rack up the fair.

Look at this video, you will not believe how fast a helicopter can decelerate and land and this helicopter is less powerful than the type Colin was flying. It only took this pilot about 8 seconds to bring this to a halt, turn the craft and land it. Colin could do that with his eyes shut. You could argue that if anything went wrong, this pilot was trying to land the craft too quickly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq9oMhHZCkM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq9oMhHZCkM)

Here is another one, the same type as Colins. Is this pilot taking too much of a risk. To most people he is, but he’s not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-0ZZFnMyQY&NR=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-0ZZFnMyQY&NR=1)

What about this one…is the pilot taking unnecessary risks, banking too tight, flying too low. Notice how he lands into the wind, check the wind sock, and if trees were in the road that’s how he would still come in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2KXePvBOeo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2KXePvBOeo)

[N.O.T]

Colin McRae is a LEGEND and always will be in my eyes

Part of rallying died that day!!!!!!

I agree with that...

I base my assumptions on the reports... none knows what happened, but i guess since they used camera footage from the crash i guess they did not lie about it.

He is a rallying legend...i just wish he acted like one in his personal life as well.

[Francis44]

All acidents are avoidable, it's a bit unffair to judge him, Im sure that he was trying as hard as he could to get the people onboard and his son safely on the ground because if I remember correctly the weather was not good.

[Jake Stephens]

I`ve sat back, and read this thread in amazement. I would suggest this be the last post on this matter in respect to all those that tragically lost their lives. Our thoughts should remain with the families.

Amen.

[tfp]

I`ve sat back, and read this thread in amazement. I would suggest this be the last post on this matter in respect to all those that tragically lost their lives. Our thoughts should remain with the families.

Amen.

[bretddog]

Anyone who understand a little bit about aviation knows that you fly an aircraft with a dramatically different respect to safety and safety margins than most other vehicles. For obvious reasons. In the air, specially close to ground, there is just no forgiveness. But it's a recurring factor for a large number of CFITs, that simply the pilot's ambitions outweigh their abilities.

It sounds like many are unaware of the facts. In case details from earlier report should speak for itself:
Colin McRae helicopter crash report | The Sun |Home Scotland|Scottish News (http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/article2229460.ece)

It really does not leave much to be speculated. Although a direct technical pilot error can not be proven to have caused the impact, it is beyond doubt that the pilot flew the aircraft in a manner which left extremely limited chance of recovery from an (the) unexpected event. Being it pilot error, disturbance by passenger or mechanical.

To do so on a solo flight is one thing. With passengers is again a whole different game.

And for that last line alone, I think to revisit these facts is justified, as this is something a lot of people can relate to, and this accident can serve as the necessary reminder.

[tfp]

RIP Colin, sadly missed.

[N.O.T]

RIP Graeme Duncan, Johnny Mcrae, Ben Porcelli, Colin Mcrae.

[tfp]

RIP Graeme Duncan, Johnny Mcrae, Ben Porcelli, Colin Mcrae.

Amen.

[BDunnell]

Anyone who understand a little bit about aviation knows that you fly an aircraft with a dramatically different respect to safety and safety margins than most other vehicles. For obvious reasons. In the air, specially close to ground, there is just no forgiveness. But it's a recurring factor for a large number of CFITs, that simply the pilot's ambitions outweigh their abilities.

It sounds like many are unaware of the facts. In case details from earlier report should speak for itself:
Colin McRae helicopter crash report | The Sun |Home Scotland|Scottish News (http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/article2229460.ece)

It really does not leave much to be speculated. Although a direct technical pilot error can not be proven to have caused the impact, it is beyond doubt that the pilot flew the aircraft in a manner which left extremely limited chance of recovery from an (the) unexpected event. Being it pilot error, disturbance by passenger or mechanical.

To do so on a solo flight is one thing. With passengers is again a whole different game.

And for that last line alone, I think to revisit these facts is justified, as this is something a lot of people can relate to, and this accident can serve as the necessary reminder.

An excellent post in all respects.

[J.Lindstroem]

RIP Graeme Duncan, Johnny Mcrae, Ben Porcelli, Colin Mcrae.

Best post in the whole thread. Now just let it be!