Milwaukee Gone, For Good

[bugeyedgomer]

thank you supporters of the Visions, you suck!

hey indycool, when you set out twenty years ago to destroy open wheel racing, did you think you would be so successful?

[00steven]

Not surprised, but it is certainly ashame.

[FIAT1]

One of the best oval tracks gone. I'm not big oval fan but have enjoyed racing here for many years. I will miss this track that produced good oval racing every year. Least we have china. Idiots!

[Wilf]

thank you supporters of the Visions, you suck!

hey indycool, when you set out twenty years ago to destroy open wheel racing, did you think you would be so successful?

Sounds like someone else who is in the news all the time blaming someone or something else for the situation in which they find themselves.

The revolving door of promoters, six or seven in the last twenty years, at least two of which ripped off the state, NASCAR, INDYCAR, vendors and the fans had nothing to do with the lack of action at the track. :rolleyes:

[Chamoo]

It is unfortunate, but I do not think the track is set up for success with it's current state ownership.

[uncommonsense52]

I'll miss Milwaukee too, but... another way to think about this is that now the market in Wisconsin has no race... and Road America is sitting there all lonely and unused...

[SarahFan]

It's CARTs fault

[Wilf]

It's CARTs fault

I thought you would go back to your previous account name before you went fishing.

[SarahFan]

Come on Wilf..... It really sucked when CART ran there and the place was full..... Thank goodness Tony had a vision

[Chris R]

While the spilt did not help, I think Milwaukee's problems are more local/track/promoter oriented than the CART/IRL split and it is a bit unfair to place this particular failure on TG - just sayin'.... :p :

[SarahFan]

Did the 1994 promotors have a problem filling the stands?

What changed?

[heliocastroneves#3]

I dunno but do you have an article about this?

I knew that Milwaukee wasn't a success for a while and that it wasn't this year as well (while it was the best race of the year) :(

[anthonyvop]

Did the 1994 promotors have a problem filling the stands?

What changed?

The product.

[FIAT1]

The product.

Bingo!!! Agree 100%. Instead of building a product they kill the venue. One more time - idiots!

[SoCalPVguy]

In think by 2011, even without the "split" that Milwaukee would have failed by now. Dying city in the rust belt, declining population, bad economy probably 20% + unemployment in that area, aging track, deteriorating grounds, plus flash mobs of black youths beating up white fair goers. No promoter can overcome that. Although we agree the "product" is not what it used to be, IMHO Milwaukee is a thing of the past like Trenton, Langhorne, etc.. that time has simply passed by.

[Chris R]

Did the 1994 promotors have a problem filling the stands?

What changed?perhaps the only thing worse than TG - the government got involved!! :D

Again not saying TG didn't do his bit to kill the race - but I think the fatal problem is/was track ownership/management and failed promoters...

[SarahFan]

The creation of the IRL was the first dominoe...it didn't happen in a vacuum


The rest you state were simply the dominos that followed

[Lousada]

How many independent major ovals are left now? IMS, Iowa, Dover, Pocono, and???? That's not good for the future of racing.

[Chris R]

If you are saying MAJOR I think the ONLY one left is Indy. Pocono and Dover are pretty much one game tracks (Cup racing), Iowa seems to be a very active up and comer so perhaps it can be called major.... All the others sold out or closed up I think......

[chuck34]

Everyone here seems to be blaming the split for this. Why? As SoCal points out what happened to Trenton, Langhorne, Riverside, the Meadowlands, Ontario, on and on, just to name a few.

It's not like every track/event was stable and growing before the split. Things change, people's preferences change, sh!t happens. Sure the split probably didn't help. But the fact that NASCAR isn't exactly wildly successful there either says to me that there is probably something else going on. Most likely the promoters have p!ssed a lot of people off, and those people aren't comming back anymore. It's a shame, but the blame everything soley on TG and the split is just short sighted, narrow minded, and shaded by past biases.

[Pat Wiatrowski]

Milw's decline started when Carl Haas quit promoting racing there. Just my opinion.

[Wilf]

I thought you would go back to your previous account name before you went fishing.

In 1993 NASCAR arrived with the Busch Series to a sold out facility and was followed by the trucks in 1995. Crowds for the CART race began dropping immediately. They didn't drop to the miserable size we saw last year, but it was the first hit.

The split sure didn't help anything, but the crowds in 2008 and 2009 were over 35 thousand and approached the 40 thousand mark in spite of he fact that trouble was brewing. In January 2009 the state's promoter said it couldn't make money under the contract and asked to be let out of the contract. The state then allowed the general manager of the company who asked to be let out of the contract to take over and run the 2009 events.

Neither NASCAR nor INDYCAR were paid the contracted sanction fees and numerous vendors are still waiting for their invoices to be paid.

IndyCar insisted that any new promoter also pay the $1.5 million owed for 2009 before they would consider racing there in 2010. NASCAR moved their Nationwide Series event to Road America and the trucks were moved to another facility. Neither NASCAR nor INDYCAR raced at the facility in 2010.

Responding to a strong lobbying campaign the new CEO of INDYCAR announced they would return to Milwaukee for 2011. I have no desire to relive that fiasco but will add that promises were not kept by all sides, the state, the promoter and IndyCar. Oh yeah, some vendors were stiffed again.

Try as hard as you wish, you will not convince me that the split had anything to do with NASCAR leaving the mile. The NASCAR races were the cash cow for the mile and continually outdrew INDYCAR. When they got stiffed, the handwriting was on the wall.

[Wilf]

Milw's decline started when Carl Haas quit promoting racing there. Just my opinion.

Does anybody remember why Carl walked away?

[SarahFan]

2008 and 2008 were nowhere near 35k

[Wilf]

Oh - OK!

[SarahFan]

I'd they were the promoters would still be in place

[Wilf]

I'd they were the promoters would still be in place

No way; at least one of them would be in jail. There is between two and three million bucks missing!

[vintage]

Look, they ran a bunch of USAC classes (which many say is SO popular, all those drivers have such an INCREDIBLE following) and Indycar, and no one showed up. Stick a fork in it, it's done.

[Pat Wiatrowski]

Does anybody remember why Carl walked away?

I think the State Fair Board (owners) wanted more money than Carl was willing to pay. Also Carl wanted to start slowing down.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The Government and the promotors I can finger for this one. As much as TG killed OW racing, it doesn't explain the stiffing of NASCAR and all the issues they faced here. Bad management is the real villian. When the product that is supposively what people want to see cant stick around, that says all you need to know. The IRL's popularity has taken a huge hit in the last few years, but that is another story. This track was badly run, and their events were not promoted well.

[Andy Traxel]

I've lived in the Milwaukee area for 50 of my 54 years. I saw my first open wheel race at the Mile in '69 and proabably saw 50 or so since then.

I'm also about 75 mile from Road America and have probably been there for motorsports events more than 50 times.

I also know someone on the RA board and know a little bit about race promotion from them.

My opinion is that the Indy Car race at Mile failed because of the nature of the racetrack business these days. It hasn't help that onership and management of the track are fragmented.

In the late '60's & '70's there were 6 major USAC races at the Mile. 2 open wheel races and 4 stock car races. USAC stock car fields had names like Foyt, Jones, Bobby Unser and McCluskey in them back then and drew well. The open wheel races were sell-outs or damn near it.

With the demise of the USAC stock car series and open wheel races cut back to one a year, there hasn't been enough big time racing to keep the track busy. That's made life tough on whoever has been the promoter. I think its an earlier example of what loosing their Sprint race did to the Nashville track. Oval tracks need to be owned by the sanctioning bodies these days.

The open wheel split was a big injury as well. It split the crowd and still hasn't healed. This year they tried a race again but gave the promoter Father's Day instead of the tradional wekend after the 500. As if lots of people don't have tradional family event or other plans on Father's Day. And SCCA June Sprints at RA were that weekend this year. To expect much success with this schedule in one year was foolish.

BTW, RA has plenty going on. Not all for public attendance though.Road America is privately owned and still out in the country. They're busy renting the track out for testing during the week and club events on weekends. The national Porsche Club has rented Labor Day weekend forever for example. Lots of things you can't do as readily at a track in the middle of a metropolitan city.

[bratfry]

I talked to an individual that said he saw three indy cars on the track of Road America the weekend of Sept 11. He said they were different from the current design, maybe the new type. Does anyone want to read anything into that?

[chuck34]

I talked to an individual that said he saw three indy cars on the track of Road America the weekend of Sept 11. He said they were different from the current design, maybe the new type. Does anyone want to read anything into that?

Only one new IndyCar exists. The SCCA run-offs are comming up this week. Last week was a practice week starting Monday the 12th. So I'm guessing that the weekend of the 11th was rented by someone with Formula Atlantics, Continentals, or Fords, and your friend wasn't sure what he saw. I could be wrong though.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Rumor has it, Loudon will also bite the dust and we'll have new street races at Detroit, Porto Alegre, maybe Houston and Qingdao. I bet Randy's promose to keep the balance between ovals and road/street courses will go to the dumpster just like the original $5 million Las Vegas gimmick. It will be closer to 1/3 vs 2/3.

[Chris R]

wow, if this is true we are by-passing recreating CART and going straight to Champcar...... yikes!!

although, a bad oval is, imho worse than a bad street race (both as a fan watching a race and as an observer seeing empty stands) - but you cannot change the fact that a bad race is a bad race......

[SarahFan]

1/3 oval
1/3 street
1/3 RC
Balance

[chuck34]

1/3 large oval (>2 mile)
1/3 small oval (<2 mile)
1/3 street/road

That's balance to me. But I suppose I'm in the minority.

[NickFalzone]

Randy is a businessman, and first and foremost, his new oval (NH) completely tanked this year, and his new street circuit (MD) was a big success. I am supremely bored by the road courses, and about half the time like any given street or oval race. So my preference would be to get out of places like Mid-Oh or Barber. But dropping NH in favor of, say, Houston would not necessarily make me go cry in a corner. The fact of the matter is that no one shows up at IndyCar oval races, except for Indy and I guess Iowa. If keeping the series alive means going to tracks that people will show up at, then that's just business imo. As primarily a tv viewer, I can always change the channel.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

I guess you have to follow the money. US open wheel fans seems to prefer road/street courses and avoid ovals and who I am to criticize their choises. It is only for my own selfish reasons I don't like the direction the series is going. Here in Europe, I can follow any number of road racing series. US open-wheel racing gave me the change to see something different. Well, actually they didn't, they took away the live feed this year, but I downloaded the races anyway. At the beginning of the season, anyway. Then only the ovals. I feel the Vegas finale will be the last one I download.

BTW, here is the link for the NHMS rumor. http://www.newhampshire.com/article/20110922/SPORTS/709229959/0/newhampshire03

[bugeyedgomer]

I guess you have to follow the money. US open wheel fans seems to prefer road/street courses and avoid ovals and who I am to criticize their choises. It is only for my own selfish reasons I don't like the direction the series is going. Here in Europe, I can follow any number of road racing series. US open-wheel racing gave me the change to see something different. Well, actually they didn't, they took away the live feed this year, but I downloaded the races anyway. At the beginning of the season, anyway. Then only the ovals. I feel the Vegas finale will be the last one I download.

BTW, here is the link for the NHMS rumor. Allen Lessels Motor Sports: IndyCar series unlikely to return to NHMS | New Hampshire SPORTS (http://www.newhampshire.com/article/20110922/SPORTS/709229959/0/newhampshire03)

one problem with your thinking. As Wilke, Howard, and Schaffer have told you over the past 20 years, road and street race attendees aren't real open wheel fans; they, like the people who go to indy every year, are just event fans

[bugeyedgomer]

a recent photo of Nazareth

http://t.co/akvvc4Y

[Chris R]

sad

[garyshell]

one problem with your thinking. As Wilke, Howard, and Schaffer have told you over the past 20 years, road and street race attendees aren't real open wheel fans; they, like the people who go to indy every year, are just event fans

Really, who are these hacks that think they are capable of reading the minds of open wheel fans like me who have been going to road and street courses (as well as ovals) for many years? This sort of generalization is just assinine.

Gary

[Pat Wiatrowski]

Really, who are these hacks that think they are capable of reading the minds of open wheel fans like me who have been going to road and street courses (as well as ovals) for many years? This sort of generalization is just assinine.

Gary

Diddo!

[bugeyedgomer]

Sounds like someone else who is in the news all the time blaming someone or something else for the situation in which they find themselves.



You've mistaken my correct interpretation of the results of Tony's boondoogle for my being a doomsayer.

[Mark in Oshawa]

a recent photo of Nazareth

http://t.co/akvvc4Y
That picture depressed the hell out of me..nothing looks more forlorn than a dead race track...

[bugeyedgomer]

I suppose this is what needed fixing

1993 CART Milwaukee - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuR7EVKT1To)

yeah,,,too many fans there,,,,can you amagion how difficult it would be to get out of there after the race

[Pat Wiatrowski]

I suppose this is what needed fixing

1993 CART Milwaukee - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuR7EVKT1To)

yeah,,,too many fans there,,,,can you amagion how difficult it would be to get out of there after the race

As I recall, It was not bad IF (like us) you tail gated for about an hour and then left. Standard procedure back then at both Milw and Road America.

[nigelred5]

As I recall, It was not bad IF (like us) you tail gated for about an hour and then left. Standard procedure back then at both Milw and Road America.

Nazareth was no different in the best years. We usually went into the infield to catch winners circle, surveyed the post race crash damage in the paddock and by then it was a much clearer shot out of town. getting into the track usually meant a backup all the way from Nazareth south and out onto 22e several hours before race time. The last year CART raced there we drove right into and out of the track. I didn't attend the IRL race, but a good friend that did felt you couldn't even tell there was a race going on in town the crowd was so small.

[Chris R]

The traffic going to and from races is a big issue. I know I make many decision about what to do and where and when to go based on how long I think I might sit in traffic. Bottom line is, I am not all that willing to sit in traffic or deal with crowds that I cannot escape.... City races make a lot of sense because you can utilize public transportation and they tend to be in areas more set up to deal with heavy traffic- which also may explain the popularity of street races.....

[nigelred5]

The traffic going to and from races is a big issue. I know I make many decision about what to do and where and when to go based on how long I think I might sit in traffic. Bottom line is, I am not all that willing to sit in traffic or deal with crowds that I cannot escape.... City races make a lot of sense because you can utilize public transportation and they tend to be in areas more set up to deal with heavy traffic- which also may explain the popularity of street races.....

Don't tell people working in Baltimore that ;) I had ZERO problems with traffic, but I payed attention to the traffic plans for weeks and weighed the availability of parking against the traffic. Light rail or the subway is the way to go. driving in would be my last choice. I actually like the small crowd size for most races at NJMSP. It's delightful to make a 80 minute drive in 80 minutes!

[Chris R]

Don't tell people working in Baltimore that ;) I had ZERO problems with traffic, but I payed attention to the traffic plans for weeks and weighed the availability of parking against the traffic. Light rail or the subway is the way to go. driving in would be my last choice. I actually like the small crowd size for most races at NJMSP. It's delightful to make a 80 minute drive in 80 minutes!

Yes, the drive from Baltimore to Millville is typically a breeze..... Sad to say, with NJMSP in my backyard, I have not been there this year at all!!

[SarahFan]

Clearly Randy needs to figure out how to get more "event fans" on board...

[nigelred5]

Not coming home on Sunday evening it isn't. We usually come down 40 until well into Maryland. It's not necessarily faster but not nearly as frustrating as sitting in the Delaware I-95 parking lot.

Shhhhh,NEVER take 95 southbound. I might take 13 and 40 but I'm just as likely to come home on rt. 7 or rt 9 to 40. There's ways around that mess but I grew up spending a lot of time in Delaware, have family all over the place and my wife works up there so I know Delaware roads very well.