Development of a S1600 4WD RallyCar for 2013

[Sulland]

The news of the development of a new rallycar with 1600T and 4WD, with a price around 100 000 euro is very good news. It deserves its own thread.

The current 4wd cars are too expensive for most privateers in regional and national series, and the current economic climate tells us that getting sponsors will get even harder.

Several manufacturers are in dialogue with FIA as we write, with the goal to have the new category car ready for 2013. They will base them around a R3T, and add a generic 4wd system, much like the MaxiRally cars in Argentina.
A very good initiative, lets hope they succeed !

I have stolen this from another thread to give some figures:

This is quite far from the topic but WTH.

I made some hypothetic calculations with the Citroen DS3 R3T as a base.

DS3 R3T kit, which includes the “Racing engine, assembled and bench-tested, ready to be mounted”: 62.000 €
The gravel kit: 7.800 €
Donor car: 30.630 € (it’s the price of a DS3 THP 207 Racing which price in Finland without our beloved car taxes)
Assembling of the car: 20.000 €

62.000 + 7.800 + 30.630 + 20.000 = 100.430 €

What are not needed from the R3T kit for the 4WD formula are the R3T gearbox and the reinforced body shell with roll cage. The spare part price for a Renault Clio R3 body shell is 7.570 € and the spare part price for the gearbox is 9.393 €. The spare part price for the Honda Civic R3 gearbox is 9.000 €.

Choosing 7.600 € as the spare part price for the body shell and 9.000 € for the gearbox and assuming a 10% discount when these parts are included in a complete kit would result in a price of 6.840 € for the body shell and 8.100 € for the gearbox and both summed 14.940 €.

Basic kit for the 4WD = 100.430 - 14.940 = 85.490 €

The 4WD kit I picked from here (http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/112634-official-s2000-thread-13.html) (post #503)

• Gearbox: 24 500 €
• Rear diff. : 14 500 €
• Propshaft : 3 250 €
• Rear driveshaft : 950 €
• Body shell : 23 000 €
• Gravel hub carrier assembly : 4 200 €
• Rear subframe with arms : 5 300 €

24.500 + 14.500 + 3.250 + 2*950 + 23.000 + 2*4.200 + 5.300 = 80.850 €

Usually there’s a “discount” when buying a complete kit (as you all probably know what the price for a car would be if it would be build using spare part prices).

4WD kit – 10% = 72.765 €
4WD kit – 20% = 64.680 €
4WD kit – 30% = 56.595 €

The “kit discount” for the Honda Civic is ~ 9% and for the Fiesta R2 ~ 30%.

Adding the basic kit and the 4WD kit:

85.490 + 72.765 = 158.255 € for a complete car
85.490 + 64.680 = 150.170 € for a complete car
85.490 + 56.595 = 142.085 € for a complete car

[modri dirkac]

They have my support, RRC's are way too expensive. :rolleyes:

[makinen_fan]

is this comfirmed or just speculations at the moment? were is it going to be placed? below s2000/s1600T or are they plan to get rid of these categories all together. i dont umderstand why they have to invent new rally car categories every couple of years...

[Gregor-y]

Will anyone sell a 1.6T road car with 4 wheel drive to capitalize on the formula?

[Mirek]

It's a bit different idea ;) Manufacturers and FIA are talking about a possibility of a new class which is 4x4 1.6T but doesn't require production equivalent. So they don't want to create new N4/R4 in a moment when this concept slowly dies. The idea is to find a solution for new affordable 4x4 class. Basically they want to create something like R3T car with addition of a simple controlled 4x4 transmission.

[Gregor-y]

I know; I just like that the R2/R3 has some relevance to a normal car, just like my car has some homologated group N parts that make driving more enjoyable and my ownership experience more pleasant.

[Sulland]

What factories are involved in this project so far?

[Allar]

What factories are involved in this project so far?
I bed Skoda is one, but i dont know. Maybe M-sport too.

[Mirek]

For sure Peugeot for new 208.

[Sulland]

Done right, this class has the potential to get huge, both in national and regional series!

Maybe also it can become the new academy car?

[Gordini]

Hope Renault will build Clio for this class.

[OldF]

Lets put first here the public sources for this new formula.

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http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii284/OkdF/FIAlaunchesnewturbocarformula.jpg

gpweek (http://mag.gpweek.com/?iid=49492) (page 39)

and

MaxRally | News | Cheaper Super 2000 category planned (http://www.maxrally.com/news/entry/cheaper_super_2000_category_planned/)

Cheaper Super 2000 category planned


24th July 2011
By Charlie Contadeli

The new-generation Super 2000 cars will be half the price of a current version according to Peugeot Sport’s Bertrand Vallat.

Vallat, who is responsible for the French make’s hugely successful 207 model, revealed that Peugeot and Skoda are in discussions with the FIA, motorsport’s world governing body, regarding the new technical regulations for 2013.

In an interview with respected radio reporter Colin Clark, Vallat said: “Skoda and Peugeot are talking with the FIA for a new car from 2013. It will be a standard car with a 1.6 turbo based on a future model. We are trying to cut the technical cost by half. It will be a big challenge to reduce this cost but we will be working hard with the FIA to achieve this. The category could be good."

The current Super 2000 rules were introduced in 2006. If the cost-cutting plans reach fruition then the new-era S2000 machine could cost approximately 100,000 Euros.

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The gpweek story tells that the new formula will be based on current R3 rules and a 1.6 turbo engine must be used which imo suggests that the engine can be taken from another model.

The maxrally story tells that “It will be a standard car with a 1.6 turbo based on a future model” which in turn suggests that the production model must have a 1.6 GDI turbo engine.

I wish it would be a single supplier engine.

I don’t think there are so many makes currently that have a 1.6 GDI turbo engine. Citroen DS3/C4, Peugeot 207/308 and Ford Focus are all I know about.

If the new formula cars should be ready at the beginning of 2013, FIA should publish the rules as early as possible. One year and four months is quite short time to develop and test a new car.

[Gregor-y]

MINI could use the PSA motor as well, correct? I'd much rather see makers start with their own factory standard motor, though a single supplier may cost less.

[Sulland]

--> Old F: Yes there is a difference btw the two news stories, almost from GrR to GrN as the startcar.

Hopefully FIA will decide on their own this time, and not get pushed by PSA into something that will get too expensive. Imo the cost issue need to be one of the top priorities constructing this class !

[Sulland]

Suddenly the price almost doubled. GP Week (http://mag.gpweek.com/) page 17/18. PSA thinks people have more money than they do - pls keep is simple and affordable !

The name R4T also seem to reappear, so maybe that is the real thing, or it is just a GPWeek name ?

[OldF]

It’s big difference between 100 000 € and 170 000 €. 100 000 € for a special built 4WD car is imo unrealistic which is not the half of a S2000s price.

But as Quesnel said “We want the finished car to cost half of the 2-litre NA S2000 cars - say 170 000 euros – not only at start of the formula but to continue to be available at the level into the future“.

Remember that Mirek once said that the Skoda with tarmac spec is about 235 000 €. A median about 140 000 € is imo more realistic.

[Sulland]

The Fiesta RRC is also pretty expensive: http://www.fiestarrc.com/index.php/component/remository/func-download/57/chk,4e2bfd6003eb9536fb1ba6e2187c817f/no_html,1/

Not sure how many of these that will run in national series, so maybe the R4T is the logical answer for a national top class, if you want more than 5 cars to compete.

[OldF]

The Fiesta RRC is also pretty expensive: http://www.fiestarrc.com/index.php/component/remository/func-download/57/chk,4e2bfd6003eb9536fb1ba6e2187c817f/no_html,1/

On page 2 at the end of “Package options”:

“All three packages include all conversion items to change specification of vehicle to the WRC variant.”

On page 3, “WRC conversion kit”:

“All Regional Rally Cars are supplied in WRC specification with the conversion kit to change the setup of the car to it’s Regional Rally Car Variant. The conversion kit compromises of:

- 30mm Turbo Restrictor
- RRC Front Bumper Assembly
- RRC Rear Tailgate & Spoiler
- RRC Flywheel & Bolts
- Spigot Bearing
- RRC Intercooler Intake Duct”

Whichever is it? A RRC to WRC or a WRC to RRC. Anyway I interpret this that those prices are also the prices of a Fiesta WRC. M-Sport is not selling a WRC car or a RRC car but both in same package?

[Sulland]

Any news on development on this new class ?
Have they gotten closer on agreeing on the tech regs ?

[Mirek]

AFAIK regs will be revealed for public at December. At least Peugeot 208 and I believe also Škoda (Fabia?) are under development. I think that 208 is based on machinery of DS3 R3T.

[dimviii]

and Subaru has announced that will build 1,6 turbo 4wdrive.

[OldF]

Does VW group have a DI 1,6T engine in any of their production cars? At least I couldn’t find any in this (http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/?man=6483) database. For sure the Polo WRC will have one but will that engine be in any production car?

BTW, does anyone know about a good car database with technical specifications? The one above is the best I’ve found.

[Barreis]

very expensive.

[ProRally]

no more need for production engine 1.6T, they can make one from a blank page of paper....

[Mirek]

no more need for production engine 1.6T, they can make one from a blank page of paper....

That is for WRC/S2000 1.6T only. Isn't it? I thought R3T/R4T engine must come from production...

[RICARDO75]

Does VW group have a DI 1,6T engine in any of their production cars? At least I couldn’t find any in this (http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/?man=6483) database. For sure the Polo WRC will have one but will that engine be in any production car?

BTW, does anyone know about a good car database with technical specifications? The one above is the best I’ve found.

The Audi A1 S1 will have 1600cc turbo engine
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/273970/audi_rs1_spy_pics.html?CMP=NLC-Newsletters&uid=05f89bb4fa0bef4e12114f66e6766ca5

[Sulland]

That is for WRC/S2000 1.6T only. Isn't it? I thought R3T/R4T engine must come from production...
To be able to meet the price they work for, they have to use a production based engine.

[Bobcat]

http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/ford/fiesta-st-concept/ns/ford_fiesta-st-concept_prf_ns_110311_717.jpg

The new Fiesta ST is an interesting global car with a 1.6T Ford EcoBoost engine and Ford shows high interest in creating an R3T Fiesta and an R3T4WD Fiesta. ;)

Ford Fiesta ST Concept Bows at 2011 Los Angeles Auto Show (http://www.insideline.com/ford/fiesta/ford-fiesta-st-concept-bows-at-2011-los-angeles-auto-show.html)

[Sulland]

Cool, hopefully VW and PSA will come as well!

[Mirek]

VW via Škoda, not themselves.

[polo10]

VW via Škoda, not themselves.

Is that confirmed with Skoda??? I heard that it will be with new Fabia,and the new one will only come out later in 2013 i think so probably only in 2014 we will have the rally car, is this correct?

[James Graham]

Is this really a good move for the sport? Adding yet another class structure to an already confusing number of classes and variations. The FIA need to really strip out and scrap a lot of classes and put forward a plan for the next five or ten years that makes everything clear. They just seem to be inventing classes depending on what different manufacturers request. The interest is obviously there from manufacturers which is brilliant for rallying.

The price of 100,000 or 170,000 euro's seems a little opimistic to me. Remember the old 100,000 euro price cap on the S1600 cars? That was unrealistic and that was many years ago. If I recall Renault were the main culprits. They would sell you a S1600 Clio for 100,000 euro and then if you wanted it to go fast and be able to use it on both tarmac and gravel then you needed to spend another 100,000 euro.

I hope the FIA and manufacturers can all agree on a way forward with this and attract new or returning manufacturers back into the sport. It is obvious that rallying is going down the production based route but we still need to make it exciting for both drivers and fans.

[Mirek]

Is that confirmed with Skoda??? I heard that it will be with new Fabia,and the new one will only come out later in 2013 i think so probably only in 2014 we will have the rally car, is this correct?

Not officially. Let's call it strong rumors :)

[Sulland]

Is this really a good move for the sport? Adding yet another class structure to an already confusing number of classes and variations. The FIA need to really strip out and scrap a lot of classes and put forward a plan for the next five or ten years that makes everything clear. They just seem to be inventing classes depending on what different manufacturers request. The interest is obviously there from manufacturers which is brilliant for rallying.

The price of 100,000 or 170,000 euro's seems a little opimistic to me. Remember the old 100,000 euro price cap on the S1600 cars? That was unrealistic and that was many years ago. If I recall Renault were the main culprits. They would sell you a S1600 Clio for 100,000 euro and then if you wanted it to go fast and be able to use it on both tarmac and gravel then you needed to spend another 100,000 euro.

I hope the FIA and manufacturers can all agree on a way forward with this and attract new or returning manufacturers back into the sport. It is obvious that rallying is going down the production based route but we still need to make it exciting for both drivers and fans.

This is FIAs main challenge , keeping the price down.

This class has in my opinion the potential to be the real Regional Rally Car. The Mini SP and Fiesta RRC are way to expensive to buy and operate, close to WRC prices.

This class will take over for Gr N4 and S2000 NA, and will become THE class when it comes to number of cars sold.
This has to be done right by FIA listening to the driver community, and not only the manufacturers.
If they can keep it in the range of 100 000 Euro, and restrict development that pushes the price, that would be the best for the sport !

[RS]

Is this really a good move for the sport? Adding yet another class structure to an already confusing number of classes and variations.

I hear what you are saying. Particularly WRC, 1.6T S2000 (I don't even know what they are oficially called?) and RRC being all virtually the same car got a bit messy.

But this class I think is a good move. It is like a proper (and maybe cheaper) sucessor to S2000. The current RRCs just seem to be a stop-gap solution.

I just hope they are not too boring to watch like current N4 or two wheel drive turbo cars.

[OldF]

This is FIAs main challenge , keeping the price down.

Fully agree with you.


This class has in my opinion the potential to be the real Regional Rally Car. The Mini SP and Fiesta RRC are way to expensive to buy and operate, close to WRC prices. !

It should have been but I think it’s too late for that. The Mini and Fiesta again is mainly for WRC but gives the option also to be used in regional rallies.


This class will take over for Gr N4 and S2000 NA, and will become THE class when it comes to number of cars sold.

Agree. There will be a huge market for these cars whether Subaru or Mitsubishi will continue to homologate new N4 cars or not.


If they can keep it in the range of 100 000 Euro, and restrict development that pushes the price, that would be the best for the sport !

100 000 € sounds too optimistic. I don’t know but I think a new complete Citroen DS3 R3T is about 100 000 €. My guess is between 140 000 – 180 000 € depending of the price for the 4WD kit.

[Sulland]

News on this class in GP Week (http://mag.gpweek.com/) page 20/21

Rally is going from a 10 tier to 5 tier class system

WRC
New R4T or whatever the name will be
R-GT
R3
R1 + R2

In my opinion this looks simple and logic, and almost too good to be true !
It also means that todays RRC and SP cars will die almost stillborn.

[focus206]

News on this class in GP Week (http://mag.gpweek.com/) page 20/21

Rally is going from a 10 tier to 5 tier class system

WRC
New R4T or whatever the name will be
R-GT
R3
R1 + R2

In my opinion this looks simple and logic, and almost too good to be true !
It also means that todays RRC and SP cars will die almost stillborn.

With all of the new classes that are coming out, I feel a bit confused... it's better if we have a more simple system like this.

[Sulland]

With all of the new classes that are coming out, I feel a bit confused... it's better if we have a more simple system like this.

Agree, but looking to other parts of carsport, it might have made more logical sense to call:

WRC = R1
R4T = R2
R3 = R3
R2 = R4
R1 = R5
+ R-GT

More resemblance to the racing world. Most people know that F1 is top dog, R1 could be the same in Rally.

[OldF]

But FIA still tries to match the old groups (A and N) and S2000 NA into these new classes. With two classes already reserved, 8 classes should be matched with 3 left.

“The challenge now is to consider cars homologated under old group A and N, including the old generation 2-litre S2000 cars, to ensure they can be fitted into the new categories while competitors still have them to use.”

[Sulland]

Some times you have to make clean cuts. In my opinion this is one of there crossroads for FIA.

Make it simple and say that the new classes (R1--> R4, + GT and WRC are the only cars allowed to use in all FIA rally series from 2013. That would have tidied up and made it simple for all involved !

[Sulland]

The new Fiesta ST is an interesting global car with a 1.6T Ford EcoBoost engine and Ford shows high interest in creating an R3T Fiesta and an R3T4WD Fiesta. ;)

Ford Fiesta ST Concept Bows at 2011 Los Angeles Auto Show (http://www.insideline.com/ford/fiesta/ford-fiesta-st-concept-bows-at-2011-los-angeles-auto-show.html)

By doing it this way the Fiesta can deliver in R1, R2, R3, R4 and WRC - not bad, and this is how you make money from Rally, not the WRC part, where numbers are small !

[Sulland]

Peugeot is working on the 208; Google Oversetter (http://translate.google.no/translate?hl=no&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rallye-magazin.de%2Frallyes%2Fint%2Fnachrichten%2Fnews-detail%2Fd%2F2011%2F12%2F03%2Fpeugeot-plant-den-naechsten-schritt%2Findex.html)

[navtheace]

Any update on this?

[ProRally]

Any update on this?

Last time (and it was this mid January) I spoke to Peugeot representative the 208 R4T is coming along very nicely....

[Mirek]

Škoda refuse to comment the development in any way. I think it's because the R4T will be based on new model of Fabia which has not been revealed yet.

[RICARDO75]

First images from Peugeot 208 R4T

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vIGJQ01usrk/TzdWKvyrNbI/AAAAAAAATeU/ITzN7SSurzw/s1600/430225_347223341974848_118252478205270_1094893_114 244397_n.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SyEEERzOnsU/TzdWRnROwTI/AAAAAAAATec/1WvXqB8nIvA/s1600/424022_347223561974826_118252478205270_1094894_170 8875428_n.jpg

[Maxi]

What will make these cars different (other than price) from the current spec WRC cars?

[TyPat107]

What will make these cars different (other than price) from the current spec WRC cars?

Not really even close to current wrc. Much closer to a production fwd car with the addition of 4wd.

[ProRally]

First images from Peugeot 208 R4T

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vIGJQ01usrk/TzdWKvyrNbI/AAAAAAAATeU/ITzN7SSurzw/s1600/430225_347223341974848_118252478205270_1094893_114 244397_n.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SyEEERzOnsU/TzdWRnROwTI/AAAAAAAATec/1WvXqB8nIvA/s1600/424022_347223561974826_118252478205270_1094894_170 8875428_n.jpg

Looking good !!!

[Sulland]

Since we dont know the full tech spec of the class yet it is for most of us hard to say 100%. But from what we do know, this class will be a R3T with standardized all wheel drive, and bigger restrictor, maybe 32mm.

[navtheace]

So it's basically very similar to current World Rally Car but no bodywork flaring of arches etc?

[Mirek]

It has four wheels, so yes, it is similar...

[navtheace]

If this category is not to be the top category the works teams will also enter in.

Then it will just become another 'forgotton' class in the WRC as the works cars will be way faster and many of the rich privateers will not bother.

Just like R4 now.

The only way this category can be a success is making it the top level class, just like GpA as A8 was before world rally car class came in.

[Mirek]

If this category is not to be the top category the works teams will also enter in.

Then it will just become another 'forgotton' class in the WRC as the works cars will be way faster and many of the rich privateers will not bother.

Just like R4 now.

The only way this category can be a success is making it the top level class, just like GpA as A8 was before world rally car class came in.

Your post doesn't make any sense. Sorry.

[mousti]

If this category is not to be the top category the works teams will also enter in.

Then it will just become another 'forgotton' class in the WRC as the works cars will be way faster and many of the rich privateers will not bother.

Just like R4 now.

The only way this category can be a success is making it the top level class, just like GpA as A8 was before world rally car class came in.
Yeah that's why there are 300 S2000 have been sold over a couple of years..

[navtheace]

300 is not a lot for the last couple of years. Divide 300 across 20 countries for example and that gives 15 per country over two years.

Compare that to GpA and GpN days of rally car sales.

[Mirek]

You're still living in Your dreams about gr.A times coming back and still repeat same biased views. Wake up, it will never happen even if You somehow manage to fire whole FIA and make Your own rules.

Don't be so naive. It's profit which drives the car makers. No way they could make anything more than huge loss from new gr.A cars now. Current leading marketing tool based on various politic decisions say You must be green in these days. Some decade a go it was the safety which moved all on another rail. Let's see what comes in future but for sure now it's not the time for anything like gr.A. Those times ended two decades back and are nothing but dead now.

[Rally Power]

300 is not a lot for the last couple of years.
Compare that to GpA and GpN days of rally car sales.

Apart the Escort, and the endless Integrale updates, Gr.A top cars in national championships were factory made, usually ex wc cars converted to customers specs. I doubt any make has achieved in those days the 207 S2000 production figures.
R4T is a logical and desirable solution to less moneyed national championships, in witch WRC cars, even in RCC form, are unreachable. Even for FIA's regional championships R4T makes a lot of sense, and the SWRT should also be R4T limited in a near future.
If FIA want's R4T to be a national/regional success and even become a wealthy WRC support category, they really need to put aside N4, R4, S2000 and RCC in order to clarify rally regulamentations and boost this new category.

[cut full]

I would also say that there is a lot of difference between current wrc cars and r4t.
for example: the engine. if we say that there will be a 32mm restrictor in r4t, it means that this are engines that are going to last longer than current s2000 atmospheric engines. s2000 engines need much much money to be revised after short use on ss. and the same thing in comparison from r4t with 1.6L turbo wrc engines. r4t is going to be a "cheap" car and I am sure there will be many cars sold. as mirek sayed already before, that is the motive for manufacturers to create such a car.