Villeneuve: Raikkonen title not deserved

[SkyTom]

"Kimi Raikkonen did not deserve the title he won in 2007 and he only secured it because he was lucky, according to former world champion Jacques Villeneuve."

Jacques Villeneuve says Kimi Raikkonen did not deserve his Formula 1 title - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93714)


This coming from Villeneuve himself. Is he trying to be ironic? He seems to always be in the news.

[SGWilko]

"Kimi Raikkonen did not deserve the title he won in 2007 and he only secured it because he was lucky, according to former world champion Jacques Villeneuve."

Jacques Villeneuve says Kimi Raikkonen did not deserve his Formula 1 title - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93714)


This coming from Villeneuve himself. Is he trying to be ironic? He seems to always be in the news.

A-a-a-a-a.........choooooo!

Bless me. Sorry - allergic to bull5hit!

[SGWilko]

I'm surprised he has an opinion on it considering he said F1 is boring and he's rarely watched a race since he retired lol. What an ironic pleb. :p

Could even be one of them hypocrite types..... ;)

[steveaki13]

I think Jacques needed the money given for this story.

And besides I haven't heard of him for a few months.

[airshifter]

Strange, as Kimi finished the season very strong to secure his title.

JV on the other than, won his last grand prix only when the two Mclarens in front of him expired. He even managed to get himself disqualified in one of the season ending races.


Get a mirror Jacques. :)

[Koz]

What a douchebag.

[DexDexter]

It was Villeneuve himself who didn't deserve his title. He had a dominant car and average teammates for two years and narrowly won the title after mediocre performances in a car that should have easily beaten the rest. He did absolutely nothing after that.

[The Black Knight]

Well, JV isn't one to talk about not deserving to win a title. Schumacher was a much better driver than he was that year.

I see what he is saying about Raikkonen, to a certain extent, luck did play on his side. However, I feel that Raikkonen deserved the 2003 title and were it not for unreliability he would have got it, so the tides turned and he got what he deserved in 2003 4 years later.

[F16]

They deserved their own title, but they had strong resemblance on how did they get the title more for lucky factor. Other than their winning season, they struggle. To know which one of them is better let them drive as teammate in one team, or join Webber racing Caravan. :)

[CaptainRaiden]

Jacques just trolled the crap out of the F1 world. He's probably not getting much done in his "career" and plans on making some money by throwing mud on people who have achieved more than him. He's gone senile already. All I can say is:

http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Do-not-feed-the-trolls-atsof-570828_800_600.jpg

[555-04Q2]

Kimi who :?:

JV who :?:

[DexDexter]

They deserved their own title, but they had strong resemblance on how did they get the title more for lucky factor. Other than their winning season, they struggle. To know which one of them is better let them drive as teammate in one team, or join Webber racing Caravan. :)

You cannot compare Villeneuve's title to Räikkönen's. Villeneuve had a superior Newey-designed Williams and a weak teammate, while Räikkönen won the title in a very competitive season where teams were evenly matched. Mind you that Kimi finished second in the championship twice before joining Ferrari and won many races while Jacques didn't win anything after his car advantage was gone.

[nigelred5]

IMHO, JV is only surpassed by Jos in their relative delusions of grandeur. Yes, JV won the title, as would have any decent driver in that car with number 1 status. He's been a steaming turd ever since. He intervies like he was a seven time champion with 100 wins or something. ey jaques, Aren't there some weeds in your garden that need pulling or something...

[TheFamousEccles]

I wish he would change his surname - he does no service to the memory of his father when he prattles on like this. The Villeneuve name is revered in F1, and attention seeking like this is diminishing the lustre...

[markabilly]

IMHO, JV is only surpassed by Jos in their relative delusions of grandeur. Yes, JV won the title, as would have any decent driver in that car with number 1 status. He's been a steaming turd ever since. He intervies like he was a seven time champion with 100 wins or something. ey jaques, Aren't there some weeds in your garden that need pulling or something...

Not only done, but he smoked all the weed, before he gave the interview. :s mokin: :s mokin:






A superior car, but it took a crazy block pass that put him in the path of MS, and if MS had slammed the brakes instead of hitting him and keeping him on the road, I doubt JV would have made the corner.....instead MS pays the price and loses out all around.

[PSfan]

Love to say this, but JV is right on this one...

Also like that someone brought up that the FIA used to have balls (like DQing someones race result for driving by yellows flags too fast, even when 5 other drivers did exactly the same...back when being on probation meant something...)

Had the FIA not been neutered some time ago, they would have stripped those MacLeran drivers of their points as well as the team over spygate, that would have left the Ferrari boys to fight for the championship, and who knows... Kimi did benefit from some support from Massa.

[Roamy]

funny JV can still stir the turds after all these years. He would have had two championships but Frank gave one to Damon for all his work. Rakinon Hackinon - who cares

[Koz]

This has less to do with Kimi and more to do with the fact that JV and Massa were teammates, and Massa beat him... Since Massa beat him, obviously he must be a driving god... And Kimi is just a lucky maniac with asperger syndrome :o

[ioan]

Never understood why anyone is paying attention to this guy. Probably because of his surname, can't see any other reason.

[Rollo]

Villeneuve probably feels bad because Kimi won a title in a Ferrari and because Jacques' dad was such a legendary driver for Ferrari, he's probably feeling sour grapes that he was never asked to drive for them.

Why else would you make a comment about an almost four year old season?

[nigelred5]

Never understood why anyone is paying attention to this guy. Probably because of his surname, can't see any other reason.

Well, he is a former CART champion (from when that meant something), an Indy 500 winner and and a former F1 champion. His (early)F1 stats are also a touch better than his Dad's shortened carreer. He did himself no favors(other than his bank account) by going to BAR.

[Bagwan]

I was a big fan of Jacques when Hill left Williams and some of his comments over the years I have found amusing because I suppose I haven't always assumed he was being serious. Lately he's been quite arrogant about certain aspects in the sport and even said he has barely seen a race since he retired. Now he has opinions on a season which he claimed he hadn't watched and about a sport he classed as boring in the extreme to the point he found himself falling asleep. Well Jacques I'm laughing at you rather than with you on this one. We need to get Jacques back in the paddock in some form as he would definately take the heat off Lewis in the saying stupid things department lol.

I guess it's time to step in here , and clear acouple of things up .

Firstly , he was in Brazil , and was pumping his friend Massa for the crowd .
The comment was in reference to Massa perhaps being more deserving than Kimi of a championship , despite not having one .
It could be argued McLaren lost it , rather than Kimi won it .

He has said recently that he hasn't bothered watching it lately , not during the season with Kimi winning .


JV gets a lot of stick for trying the start-up route .
But , it was his father's dream , too .

There was no offer from Williams , but there were offers , and he chose his road .
It might have worked , but Reynard let the wings fall off , and wouldn"t allow adjustment until it was too late .
Then came his fight with Richards .

It's all in the past .

It is too bad he's not in the paddock right now , because he'd be the one speaking out about the Dumb/Dopey RS .
He'd be vocal about how they can't see .
He'd be able to nurse those Pirellis .
He'd be defending Lewis , as he's on his side a number of times this year .

And , he'd be faster than the red shoe , for sure .

[nigelred5]

I agree Massa should have a championship. That last 30 seconds at Interlagos was one of the biggest roller coaster rides of emotions I can remember. When Glock had little choice but to let Hamilton by it just gutted me. I can't imagine what Filipe felt.

[DexDexter]

Well, he is a former CART champion (from when that meant something), an Indy 500 winner and and a former F1 champion. His (early)F1 stats are also a touch better than his Dad's shortened carreer. He did himself no favors(other than his bank account) by going to BAR.

Gilles never had a Newey-designed Williams, instead he often struggled with an uncompetitive Ferrari so statistics don't really do the faster Villeneuve justice.

[IceWizard]

Kimi may not have deserved the championship in 2007 but perhaps did deseve it in '03. Villeneuve meanwhile won in a far superior car against a team mate in his first year at the team. Definitely pots and kettles me thinks.

[Rollo]

Kimi may not have deserved the championship in 2007 but perhaps did deseve it in '03. Villeneuve meanwhile won in a far superior car against a team mate in his first year at the team. Definitely pots and kettles me thinks.

Jacques first season was in 1996, when he had Damon Hill as a team mate who won the Championship.

I think that Hungary of 1997 proved that Damon was a better driver than Jacques. The only reason Jacques won that race was because Hill's throttle linkage failed. For Hill to make the Arrows sing like that even for one race, I think marks him as a better driver.
Jacques more or less proved that you could put a trained monkey into those Williams and win a World Championship.

For all of Jacques' years at BAR-Honda, did he even score a single win? No? Jensen Button did (sort of - if Honda is/was BAR).

[555-04Q2]

Lets clear the water here. No one deserves anything. You either win it or you don't. There is no luck but the luck you make for yourself. No one is more deserving than another.

[F16]

There are always circumstances beyond our control, like the case of Massa he would have won a title if only Glock didn't give off the last lap. At the end yes, great believer in luck may find the harder they work, the more they have of it. :)

[The Black Knight]

Jacques first season was in 1996, when he had Damon Hill as a team mate who won the Championship.

I think that Hungary of 1997 proved that Damon was a better driver than Jacques. The only reason Jacques won that race was because Hill's throttle linkage failed. For Hill to make the Arrows sing like that even for one race, I think marks him as a better driver.
Jacques more or less proved that you could put a trained monkey into those Williams and win a World Championship.

For all of Jacques' years at BAR-Honda, did he even score a single win? No? Jensen Button did (sort of - if Honda is/was BAR).

Yeah, I have to agree with this. I have never seen JV driver a car like the Arrows the way Damon Hill did that day. It was sublime.

[IceWizard]

Jacques first season was in 1996, when he had Damon Hill as a team mate who won the Championship.

I think that Hungary of 1997 proved that Damon was a better driver than Jacques. The only reason Jacques won that race was because Hill's throttle linkage failed. For Hill to make the Arrows sing like that even for one race, I think marks him as a better driver.
Jacques more or less proved that you could put a trained monkey into those Williams and win a World Championship.

For all of Jacques' years at BAR-Honda, did he even score a single win? No? Jensen Button did (sort of - if Honda is/was BAR).

I worded my previous post badly - I meant that Villeneuve's team mate (Frentzen) was in his first year at Williams when Villeneuve won his title.

[F1boat]

Well, JV is a very bitter old man, I think. He had the best moments in his career very early and then faded. Now nobody remembers him, but the hardcore fans and their opinion of his WDC is not very high. Personally I think that JV was a good driver, not a great one, but consistent and with a "never give up" attitude - especially in the early years of his career. But his years in BAR, I think, broke him, made him slow, bitter and, frankly, pathetic. I also think that his skill decreased and in the end he was a slow midfield driver. I also think that if he returns to F1 now, he will be extremely and excruciatingly slow.
About Kimi, I think that he deserved his championship. He was very fast in the end of the 2007 season, won more races than either Lewis, Alonso or Massa and showed the right attitude - kept his head down and let the driving do the talking, even when Felipe was faster (in mid-season). This was a stark contrast with the burning arrogance, which Hamilton demonstrated right from the start of his career and the bitterness of Alonso, who simply couldn't believe that a rookie can match him, let alone defeat him.
So I think that in 2007 that the best man won. Same about 2003, BTW - Kimi was very consistent and fast that season, but MS was relentless and in Indianapolis showed why all feared him in the rain.

[ioan]

Well, JV is a very bitter old man, I think.

He was every bit as bitter when he was young too.

[mousti]

Jacques is an excentric guy ^^. Always was with his interviews and different hair colours every sport has some of them, some are cool some are just douches. I like Jacques :D

[F1boat]

He was every bit as bitter when he was young too.

Really? Very sad, then.

[Big Ben]

Let the man speak his mind. I know it's quite shocking to see this days (ex-)drivers that have an opinion about stuff but sometimes it happens and we have to put up with it. Don't get worried though. We'll get our fair share of Alonso says title still possible, Hamilton is committed to pushing hard, RBR says no no.1, mercedes adamant to close the gap, Ferrari still considering a break-up series, filled with Santander, Red Bull, Marlboro, Vodafone every other word

[F1boat]

Well, I guess that I am different because I liked the icy persona of M Schumacher back in the good old times, I think that it created an aura around him and worked very well not only for the media, but for the fans as well. About Spa 98, well, who wouldn't be angry? Tension was pretty high.
I don't think that the rubbish of JV or Lewis is good or interesting. I think that it is very stupid. But I guess that people like different things.

[SGWilko]

Well, I guess that I am different because I liked the icy persona of M Schumacher back in the good old times, I think that it created an aura around him and worked very well not only for the media, but for the fans as well. About Spa 98, well, who wouldn't be angry? Tension was pretty high.
I don't think that the rubbish of JV or Lewis is good or interesting. I think that it is very stupid. But I guess that people like different things.

I recall that, back in '96, JV very much played the mind games against DH and even went as far as ensuring he covered up any of DH's sponsor decals that appeared on the overalls when being interviewed.

Petty stuff, bet he clearly felt the need to do it.

[F1boat]

I recall that, back in '96, JV very much played the mind games against DH and even went as far as ensuring he covered up any of DH's sponsor decals that appeared on the overalls when being interviewed.

Petty stuff, bet he clearly felt the need to do it.

Didn't help him in the end, for which I am very happy :-)

[DexDexter]

Strange view point I must say. I'd much rather see a driver getting emotional and showing passion with their personality than an ice cold, sterile, PR driven individual. I don't think Schumacher's icy persona created an aura around him at all. I think because we never saw the real Michael initially, this enabled people to form some quite negative opinions of him, which thankfully he is correcting in his second career by speaking to the media and giving the fans more of an insight.

What about and ice cold, sterile, press-hating individual? I recall a certain Finnish driver who had those qualities... :)

[SGWilko]

What about and ice cold, sterile, press-hating individual? I recall a certain Finnish driver who had those qualities... :)

True, but he redeemed himself 10 times over with the 'taking a 5hit' quote. ;)

[Mia 01]

True, but he redeemed himself 10 times over with the 'taking a 5hit' quote. ;)

I´m agree with you SGWilko, hope this not turn into a habit.

[CaptainRaiden]

Strange view point I must say. I'd much rather see a driver getting emotional and showing passion with their personality than an ice cold, sterile, PR driven individual. I don't think Schumacher's icy persona created an aura around him at all. I think because we never saw the real Michael initially, this enabled people to form some quite negative opinions of him, which thankfully he is correcting in his second career by speaking to the media and giving the fans more of an insight.

I think the real Michael would have been a handful for some people. :laugh:

http://www.eddsport.co.uk/motorsport/gallery/6/puberty.jpg

[Mia 01]

He is handsome!

[i_max2k2]

I think the real Michael would have been a handful for some people. :laugh:

http://www.eddsport.co.uk/motorsport/gallery/6/puberty.jpg


Really, so we havent seen any real schumacher yet then?

[CaptainRaiden]

He is handsome!

I agree!

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/EDITORIAL/slideshow/schumacher_fashion_gallery/schumacher_fashion_gallery_10.jpg

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/EDITORIAL/slideshow/schumacher_fashion_gallery/schumacher_fashion_gallery_12.jpg

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/EDITORIAL/slideshow/schumacher_fashion_gallery/schumacher_fashion_gallery_44.jpg

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/EDITORIAL/slideshow/schumacher_fashion_gallery/schumacher_fashion_gallery_96.jpg

It's amazing to think that somebody who earned what, 40 million euros a year, committed such amazing crimes against fashion. :p

[Koz]

He is handsome!

More like a crosseyed pedophile... :eek:


It's amazing to think that somebody who earned what, 40 million euros a year, committed such amazing crimes against fashion. :p

When you got it all, you get away with everything :D

[F1boat]

I'd much rather see a driver getting emotional and showing passion with their personality than an ice cold, sterile, PR driven individual. I don't think Schumacher's icy persona created an aura around him at all.

As I said, different people, different opinions. I prefer professional looking driver, with occasional glimpse of humour maybe, like Button, Vettel or Hakkinen, but not a rubbish machine - I am definitely not a fan of Lewis and the way he talks unbelievable crap and although I liked Montoya, I think he very often looked immature and stupid in interviews. And JV simply looks bitter.
About MS, what to say. I liked his cool attitude. Different people, different opinions.

[CaptainRaiden]

About MS, what to say. I liked his cool attitude. Different people, different opinions.

You do realize that his "cool" attitude is a charade to conceal his true ruthless and brutal personality, right?

[F1boat]

You do realize that his "cool" attitude is a charade to conceal his true ruthless and brutal personality, right?

Ruthless and brutal, oh my. We are talking about a racing driver, not about Jason. And I think that the cool attitude matched his determination and inhuman consistency pretty well.

[SGWilko]

I think the real Michael would have been a handful for some people. :laugh:

http://www.eddsport.co.uk/motorsport/gallery/6/puberty.jpg
'I've come to fix ze fridge' nudge nudge, wink wink...... ;)

[CaptainRaiden]

As I said, different people, different opinions. I prefer professional looking driver, with occasional glimpse of humour maybe, like Button, Vettel or Hakkinen, but not a rubbish machine - I am definitely not a fan of Lewis and the way he talks unbelievable crap and although I liked Montoya, I think he very often looked immature and stupid in interviews. And JV simply looks bitter.
About MS, what to say. I liked his cool attitude. Different people, different opinions.


Ruthless and brutal, oh my. We are talking about a racing driver, not about Jason. And I think that the cool attitude matched his determination and inhuman consistency pretty well.

Right. So, in your opinion, what is worse? Talking your mind in a heated scenario about steward decisions at Monaco or:

1. Walking up to the Mclaren garage with bad intentions, threatening to "kill" Coulthard. - Spa 1998

2. Taking out your championship rivals deliberately.....TWICE, and then lying about it. - Adelaide 1994 and Jerez 1997

3. Parking your car at La Rascasse to block other qualifiers, and then again point blank lying about it to the world. - Monaco 2006

His "coolness" is just pouring out in those scenarios. :rolleyes:

At least JV shows what he really is, an imbecile off track, while MS has showed what a ruthless guy he is on track, and so HAS to act nice for the camera. Lewis acts the way he drives, aggressive. So yeah, apart from that one blip at Australia, he has been pretty honest in his career so far, and hasn't tried to deliberately murder people on track and then act all smiley smiley to the press.

[ioan]

Right. So, in your opinion, what is worse? Talking your mind in a heated scenario about steward decisions at Monaco or:

1. Walking up to the Mclaren garage with bad intentions, threatening to "kill" Coulthard. - Spa 1998

2. Taking out your championship rivals deliberately.....TWICE, and then lying about it. - Adelaide 1994 and Jerez 1997

3. Parking your car at La Rascasse to block other qualifiers, and then again point blank lying about it to the world. - Monaco 2006

His "coolness" is just pouring out in those scenarios. :rolleyes:

At least JV shows what he really is, an imbecile off track, while MS has showed what a ruthless guy he is on track, and so HAS to act nice for the camera. Lewis acts the way he drives, aggressive. So yeah, apart from that one blip at Australia, he has been pretty honest in his career so far, and hasn't tried to deliberately murder people on track and then act all smiley smiley to the press.

Lot of rubbish from you, like always. LOL

[CaptainRaiden]

Lot of rubbish from you, like always. LOL

Pretty consistent there yourself, ioan. Although I'm glad you've downgraded from the :laugh: smiley at the end of your every post to the more conservative "LOL" like a unicorn loving pre-teen girl high on prozac. :up:

[F1boat]

Lot of rubbish from you, like always. LOL

You replied instead of me. Thanks :)

[henners88]

Lot of rubbish from you, like always. LOL
Hmmmm poking fun at a driver who makes immature comments by rolling off an ironic classic lol... I like. :up:

[F1boat]

The thing is Lewis has made a couple of silly statements of late but your post makes it sound like he say's things like that all the time, which of course he doesn't and is professional like the rest of them. Look at some of the silliness on this thread after you made that comment and you've even 'liked' a comment that is immature. What more can I say lol. ;)

I liked the comment of ioan, because it is a satisfying answer to a man who supposes that I am not aware of MS 3 big, ugly errors, compared to 91 victories, 7 world championship titles and acts of great dignity as the way he thanked his mechanics for the great Ferrari years, after he retired from Suzuka, or the way he gave Fisichella a lift in Germany 1997, or his charity. To a man who tries to tell me that what is right for me to like and what it not. So yeah, this post was a lot of rubbish.
And about Lewis, for a professional speaks too much, IMO - and just IMO. In my OPINION Michael's way of acting in front of the cameras is better.

[CaptainRaiden]

https://inzones.com/picturezone/pictures/t2/chicken27.jpg



http://www.funnyforumpics.com/forums/bandwagon/1/bandwagon-south-park.jpg

I agree. :up:

[CaptainRaiden]

I liked the comment of ioan, because it is a satisfying answer to a man who supposes that I am not aware of MS 3 big, ugly errors, compared to 91 victories, 7 world championship titles and acts of great dignity as the way he thanked his mechanics for the great Ferrari years, after he retired from Suzuka, or the way he gave Fisichella a lift in Germany 1997, or his charity. To a man who tries to tell me that what is right for me to like and what it not. So yeah, this post was a lot of rubbish.
And about Lewis, for a professional speaks too much, IMO - and just IMO. In my OPINION Michael's way of acting in front of the cameras is better.

I'm gonna take a page out of your buddy's book and just say this. That post is a load of rubbish. LOL.

You seem to be a very vocal Lewis hater on this forum, citing his loud mouth and aggressive driving style as your annoyance. Yet when it comes to Schumacher, it's nuthugging bonanza to the extreme, for a guy who is infamous for his much more scandalous on-track behavior. All that is forgiven as long as he acts nice in front of the camera?!? Do you even watch races or are you only concerned with post-race interviews?

The only people who should have problem with Lewis are like fans of Buddha or something. Not MS fans. HUGE double standards.


acts of great dignity as the way he thanked his mechanics for the great Ferrari years

All champions, past and present have thanked their mechanics, sent them Christmas cards, bought them presents. Cry me a river.


or the way he gave Fisichella a lift in Germany 1997, or his charity.

That is epic fail of gigantic proportions. LMAO! Then Mansell, Coulthard, Webber more recently, and countless others are such amazingly kind souls for giving lifts to other drivers. You must shed a tear every time that happens on TV, don't you? What would F1 do without such angels? :rolleyes:

[The Black Knight]

Right. So, in your opinion, what is worse? Talking your mind in a heated scenario about steward decisions at Monaco or:

1. Walking up to the Mclaren garage with bad intentions, threatening to "kill" Coulthard. - Spa 1998

2. Taking out your championship rivals deliberately.....TWICE, and then lying about it. - Adelaide 1994 and Jerez 1997

3. Parking your car at La Rascasse to block other qualifiers, and then again point blank lying about it to the world. - Monaco 2006

His "coolness" is just pouring out in those scenarios. :rolleyes:

At least JV shows what he really is, an imbecile off track, while MS has showed what a ruthless guy he is on track, and so HAS to act nice for the camera. Lewis acts the way he drives, aggressive. So yeah, apart from that one blip at Australia, he has been pretty honest in his career so far, and hasn't tried to deliberately murder people on track and then act all smiley smiley to the press.

I'm sorry, but I don't remember Schumacher threatening to kill Coulthard? I remember him saying "Were you trying to kill me?" Could you blame him? Stopping in a straight line in the wet to brake test the car behind you, something that I'll remind you Coulthard has since taken responsibility for himself. That incident cost MS the title in 1998. If it wasn't for thathe would have 8 WDC's.

As for Adelaide 94, I've still to see substantial proof that he was to blame for that incident. I've had people go through screenshots frame by frame on this and for every interpretation they have there is an alternative one to give. There is no proof he actually intentionally took Hill out. If anything it was an opportunistic move by Hill, probably just as opportunistic as, say then Lewis's move on Maldonado in Monaco this year.

I agree with Jerez 97, it was stupid and a blip in a glistening career.

Parking at La Rascasse, debatable. I've never been able to fully make my mind up on whether he really did that on purpose or not.

But all that aside, if those few incidents are all you can really point to over his first career then I would say Schuey is pretty cool in the car too. Around 250 races and only 4 incidents. That's pretty cool indeed.

[CaptainRaiden]

I'm sorry, but I don't remember Schumacher threatening to kill Coulthard? I remember him saying "Were you trying to kill me?" Could you blame him? Stopping in a straight line in the wet to brake test the car behind you, something that I'll remind you Coulthard has since taken responsibility for himself.

I'm pretty sure I remember from what I read of the onlookers' account, Michael first of course asked DC if he was trying to kill him, and then wanted to punch him screaming "I'm gonna f*ing kill you." There is reference made to the threatening part here on 1998 Belgian Grand Prix - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Belgian_Grand_Prix) and Schumacher may benefit from ban on refuelling, says Coulthard - Motor Racing, Sport - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/schumacher-may-benefit-from-ban-on-refuelling-says-coulthard-1920629.html)


That incident cost MS the title in 1998. If it wasn't for thathe would have 8 WDC's.

I'm sorry but that's purely speculative. IFs, buts, coulda-shouldas don't decide championships. IF the Mclaren was a more reliable car in 2000, and Ferrari wasn't the best car towards the end of the season, Hakkinen would have won his third.


As for Adelaide 94, I've still to see substantial proof that he was to blame for that incident. I've had people go through screenshots frame by frame on this and for every interpretation they have there is an alternative one to give. There is no proof he actually intentionally took Hill out. If anything it was an opportunistic move by Hill, probably just as opportunistic as, say then Lewis's move on Maldonado in Monaco this year.

I agree with Jerez 97, it was stupid and a blip in a glistening career.

Parking at La Rascasse, debatable. I've never been able to fully make my mind up on whether he really did that on purpose or not.

But all that aside, if those few incidents are all you can really point to over his first career then I would say Schuey is pretty cool in the car too. Around 250 races and only 4 incidents. That's pretty cool indeed.

Look, there are tons of excuses for every famous driver's every questionable move, and we can spend another decade debating that. IMO all those three things were intentional. But that's not what I have my beef with.

What I have a problem with is MS fans bashing Lewis for being an aggressive driver and speaking his mind, which is really hugely contradictory, because MS himself has been fiercely competitive and aggressive throughout his career. So, I can't really understand what they have as an ideal. Lewis hasn't tried to take out his championship rival deliberately ever, yet for these people, MS with his Jerez incident and other questionable antics, is a hero, and they have been laying it into Lewis ever since Monaco, and if given the opportunity, will bash the crap out of Lewis for the next decade.

Why the double standards? What is this hatred based on?

[The Black Knight]

I'm pretty sure I remember from what I read of the onlookers' account, Michael first of course asked DC if he was trying to kill him, and then wanted to punch him screaming "I'm gonna f*ing kill you." There is reference made to the threatening part here on 1998 Belgian Grand Prix - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Belgian_Grand_Prix) and Schumacher may benefit from ban on refuelling, says Coulthard - Motor Racing, Sport - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/schumacher-may-benefit-from-ban-on-refuelling-says-coulthard-1920629.html)

Ok fair enough. I had either forgotten about that part of the incident or never read it before. Bad form from MS for sure and a stupid move from Coulthard.

I'm sorry but that's purely speculative. IFs, buts, coulda-shouldas don't decide championships. IF the Mclaren was a more reliable car in 2000, and Ferrari wasn't the best car towards the end of the season, Hakkinen would have won his third.
Yes, it’s pure speculation but had he won that race Schuey would have only had to finish the Japanese GP in 5th position to retain the title, a task that would have been more than possible had he not pushed so hard that the good year tyres blew out. But, as you say, it's speculation and probably not worth discussing further :)


Look, there are tons of excuses for every famous driver's every questionable move, and we can spend another decade debating that. IMO all those three things were intentional. But that's not what I have my beef with.
What I have a problem with is MS fans bashing Lewis for being an aggressive driver and speaking his mind, which is really hugely contradictory, because MS himself has been fiercely competitive and aggressive throughout his career. So, I can't really understand what they have as an ideal. Lewis hasn't tried to take out his championship rival deliberately ever, yet for these people, MS with his Jerez incident and other questionable antics, is a hero, and they have been laying it into Lewis ever since Monaco, and if given the opportunity, will bash the crap out of Lewis for the next decade.
Why the double standards? What is this hatred based on?

Yeah, I'm completely onboard with you on this. It is a double standard. Personally, I have no issue with the way Hamilton or Schumacher go or went about their business. We're all human and make mistakes. When I raced I was unyielding and this is the way you had to do it to succeed. It's grand sitting back on the armchair saying this and that standard should have been adhered to but a driver doesn't have the benefit of hindsight. It's a split second decision that may or may not end up in disaster. You see a gap and you go for it. You leave a gap open, realise it and you decide to shut it or not. Sometimes your judgement from the cockpit isn't ideal and that is why we are human not Gods. Apart from Senna in Japan 90, I never rememebr seeing an incident where a driver intentionally put another drivers life at risk. It is still the most appalling act I've ever seen on an F1 circuit.

[CaptainRaiden]

Ok fair enough. I had either forgotten about that part of the incident or never read it before. Bad form from MS for sure and a stupid move from Coulthard.

:up:


Yes, it’s pure speculation but had he won that race Schuey would have only had to finish the Japanese GP in 5th position to retain the title, a task that would have been more than possible had he not pushed so hard that the good year tyres blew out. But, as you say, it's speculation and probably not worth discussing further :)

If we would debate about ifs and buts, I would arrive on the conclusion that MS would have 5 championships instead of 7, while you would have a completely opposite view. :p


Yeah, I'm completely onboard with you on this. It is a double standard. Personally, I have no issue with the way Hamilton or Schumacher go or went about their business. We're all human and make mistakes. When I raced I was unyielding and this is the way you had to do it to succeed. It's grand sitting back on the armchair saying this and that standard should have been adhered to but a driver doesn't have the benefit of hindsight. It's a split second decision that may or may not end up in disaster. You see a gap and you go for it. You leave a gap open, realise it and you decide to shut it or not. Sometimes your judgement from the cockpit isn't ideal and that is why we are human not Gods. Apart from Senna in Japan 90, I never rememebr seeing an incident where a driver intentionally put another drivers life at risk. It is still the most appalling act I've ever seen on an F1 circuit.

I agree about the unyielding part. That's the way I raced too. If half the people here had raced in a professional karting race, they won't be screaming bloody mary for every little bump and scrape that happens during racing.

You could argue that Senna's move on Prost was a retaliation for what Prost pulled a year before, but that's a whole another debate. I'm a Senna fan, and have absolutely no problems with Lewis' driving or how he handles himself. I don't agree with certain traits in MS' personality, or the way he handled things, or else I would have been his fan as well. And that's only a personal opinion. Lewis' Monaco interview was ballsy and straight up I-don't-give-a-f*ck material, a fresh breath of air from the regular drab PR talk we hear from other drivers usually.

Sadly so many toys were thrown out of the pram by little rainbow-lovin princesses everywhere, that we'll never hear entertaining post-race comments like those ever again.

[The Black Knight]

I agree about the unyielding part. That's the way I raced too. If half the people here had raced in a professional karting race, they won't be screaming bloody mary for every little bump and scrape that happens during racing.

You could argue that Senna's move on Prost was a retaliation for what Prost pulled a year before, but that's a whole another debate. I'm a Senna fan, and have absolutely no problems with Lewis' driving or how he handles himself. I don't agree with certain traits in MS' personality, or the way he handled things, or else I would have been his fan as well. And that's only a personal opinion. Lewis' Monaco interview was ballsy and straight up I-don't-give-a-f*ck material, a fresh breath of air from the regular drab PR talk we hear from other drivers usually.

Sadly so many toys were thrown out of the pram by little rainbow-lovin princesses everywhere, that we'll never hear entertaining post-race comments like those ever again.

Well, retaliation or not, it was still intentional. It was still wrong and completely uncalled for. I love Senna but it puts a pit in my stomach when I think about that incident. I would have never put another competitors life intentionally at risk no matter how much I hated him.

Agreed on the rest of your post. There is a class of folk here and in general that watch F1 that expect every little move to be scrutinised. To be honest, I feel the stewards this year are making a complete balls of everything. It's reverted back to 2008 and 2009 levels where every little incursion was penalised. It's bad for the sport. These guys are racers and there will always be mistakes and collisions and unless it's blatantly obvious a driver intentionally took out another I really feel that most incidents should remain unpunished. It's racing and we want these guys to race. We want them to speak their minds.

Imagine Nelson Piquet Snr in todays modern day F1? Look at some of the comments that he made during his career. It was appalling, entertaining and he was a completely original character. Personally, I liked him.

[F1boat]

I agree Michael Schumacher has got alot more instances to his credit rather than negative. Its just a shame you can't apply that logic to Lewis when its obvious he's also done great things
That is quite simply a lie. I was one of the first to congratulate Lewis after his brilliant victory in Nurburgring and after his championship title in 2008, even if I don't like him. I also admired the way he tried to fight with the superior RBR team last year.
I just happen not like his style which I think is consistently dangerous to the rest of the drivers and I don't admire at all his attitude in front of the camera. If you like it, fair play to you. But I have the right to prefer the attitude of a highly professional driver like Michael Schumacher, despite the THREE big accidents in his career (1994, 1997 and 2006).
About Raiden, the way he misquoted the accident in Suzuka shows that he is a blind hater of MS, nothing more. Also, I can't remember gesture like Michael did to Giancarlo in 1997. I have never seen something like that. I'd be happy if before commenting, people google the case and do not simply "hate, hate, hate".
But you know, the thread was of JV and the way he speaks rubbish. Well, not only speaks, BTW. Google youtube to see what he did to Ambrose in NASCAR. And this driver dared to talk about dirty driving... ridiculous.

[CaptainRaiden]

Also, I can't remember gesture like Michael did to Giancarlo in 1997. I have never seen something like that. I'd be happy if before commenting, people google the case and do not simply "hate, hate, hate".

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This is just too easy...

[The Black Knight]

That is quite simply a lie. I was one of the first to congratulate Lewis after his brilliant victory in Nurburgring and after his championship title in 2008, even if I don't like him. I also admired the way he tried to fight with the superior RBR team last year.
I just happen not like his style which I think is consistently dangerous to the rest of the drivers and I don't admire at all his attitude in front of the camera. If you like it, fair play to you. But I have the right to prefer the attitude of a highly professional driver like Michael Schumacher, despite the THREE big accidents in his career (1994, 1997 and 2006).
About Raiden, the way he misquoted the accident in Suzuka shows that he is a blind hater of MS, nothing more. Also, I can't remember gesture like Michael did to Giancarlo in 1997. I have never seen something like that. I'd be happy if before commenting, people google the case and do not simply "hate, hate, hate".
But you know, the thread was of JV and the way he speaks rubbish. Well, not only speaks, BTW. Google youtube to see what he did to Ambrose in NASCAR. And this driver dared to talk about dirty driving... ridiculous.


Oh come on, do you now remember Hungaroring last year? I can't think of a situation where Lewis did anything as potentially dangerous as MS did to Barrichello then. I'm a Schuey fan like, but a bit of perspective about the man, please.

[CaptainRaiden]

I just happen not like his style which I think is consistently dangerous to the rest of the drivers

http://www.getreligion.org/wp-content/photos/hypocrisy.jpg

:laugh: Says the MS fan. The double standards displayed by some MS fans is just hilarious. Also, you might wanna check the "kindness" displayed in those four videos I posted above, which somehow you missed while skipping through rainbows with hippie music in the background in your Schumacher loving world. Newsflash, there is this thing called Formula 1, which is independent of and doesn't revolve around Michael Schumacher.

Also a good advice is to check your own eyesight before branding other people blind haters. Your blind hatred for Lewis is SO obvious, it's getting to the point of being ridiculous. Stop denying and try to find out why you "really" hate him.

[Bagwan]

Let's try to remember , kids , that this is about how JV caused an outrage by saying that Felipe , perhaps , deserved a title more than Kimi , when he was recently down racing in Brazil .

As his opinion about it is debatable , how's about we think about debating the point , rather than throwing rocks ?
It's getting a touch tiresome hearing how blind everyone seems to be .

[F1boat]

Oh come on, do you now remember Hungaroring last year?
In my opinion it was an ugly move, but in the end there was not hit - only a menace. Michael in my opinion tried to intimidate Rubihno, but not actually hit him. Very distasteful, but not as bad as turning your car in front of the other machines, like Lewis did in GP2 (I think in Istanbul, it kinda like his move in Hungary against di Resta, but only much worse).
In the end I think that all great drivers are kinda ruthless, some more than the others. IMO Michael plays dirty sometimes, but Lewis is very instinctive and therefore more dangerous - again IMO. But my point was that I liked the media attitude of Michael better than the one of Lewis - this was dragged into a childish argument who of the two drivers is more evil, kinda like "Vader vs Maul" thread in a Star Wars forum.
Lord Raiden, thank you for the links. I am glad to see that Michael is in such dignified company of great drivers. I also admit that I did not watch F1 regularly prior to 1996, because I was a little child back then and preferred the "Ninja Turtles" cartoon. Because I am tired of pointless arguing, I will not answer your banter about MS fans. I will just say that many fans defend their favorite drivers, no matter how awful they are sometimes. About the fact that I hate Lewis, you are again wrong. He is simply annoying. I do think that hatred is bad for health and I don't really hate anyone. I strongly recommend you to stop hating MS as well.
Bagwan, well, it was a stupid thing for JV to say and sometimes I find him too very annoying, I think that right now Ambrose agrees with me. But I liked him, when he was a young driver and I was a teenager and I still think that in his good years he was a very good driver :)

[Bagwan]

In my opinion it was an ugly move, but in the end there was not hit - only a menace. Michael in my opinion tried to intimidate Rubihno, but not actually hit him. Very distasteful, but not as bad as turning your car in front of the other machines, like Lewis did in GP2 (I think in Istanbul, it kinda like his move in Hungary against di Resta, but only much worse).
In the end I think that all great drivers are kinda ruthless, some more than the others. IMO Michael plays dirty sometimes, but Lewis is very instinctive and therefore more dangerous - again IMO. But my point was that I liked the media attitude of Michael better than the one of Lewis - this was dragged into a childish argument who of the two drivers is more evil, kinda like "Vader vs Maul" thread in a Star Wars forum.
Lord Raiden, thank you for the links. I am glad to see that Michael is in such dignified company of great drivers. I also admit that I did not watch F1 regularly prior to 1996, because I was a little child back then and preferred the "Ninja Turtles" cartoon. Because I am tired of pointless arguing, I will not answer your banter about MS fans. I will just say that many fans defend their favorite drivers, no matter how awful they are sometimes. About the fact that I hate Lewis, you are again wrong. He is simply annoying. I do think that hatred is bad for health and I don't really hate anyone. I strongly recommend you to stop hating MS as well.
Bagwan, well, it was a stupid thing for JV to say and sometimes I find him too very annoying, I think that right now Ambrose agrees with me. But I liked him, when he was a young driver and I was a teenager and I still think that in his good years he was a very good driver :)

Nicely tempered post F1boat .

I agree with it all , but for the part about Jacques being annoying .
And , Ambrose is a dick .

His comment about Kimi perhaps was a touch too pandering to a pro-Massa crowd , but that's about the worst I can see about it .
It's his opinion , and it's debatable , so what's wrong with it ?

[CaptainRaiden]

In my opinion it was an ugly move, but in the end there was not hit - only a menace. Michael in my opinion tried to intimidate Rubihno, but not actually hit him.

Yes, forcing another car almost off track at 300+ kmph is completely safe.


Very distasteful, but not as bad as turning your car in front of the other machines, like Lewis did in GP2 (I think in Istanbul, it kinda like his move in Hungary against di Resta, but only much worse).

So, kinda like this?

cQG9_bfjd5Q

In case you don't know what's going on, and since you're now talking about pre-F1 incidents, this was Schumacher and Hakkinen battling for the lead at the F3 race at Macau, 1990, before both of them entered Formula 1. There were two races. Mika won the first race, and was catching up to MS in the second one, when MS, as usual, swerved into him on the straight and took him out.


Lord Raiden, thank you for the links. I am glad to see that Michael is in such dignified company of great drivers.

There are many others, those four are just what sprung to mind. And I don't think being in the company of Mansell and Coulthard is a very good thing. :laugh:


I strongly recommend you to stop hating MS as well.

Not a chance in hell. :p

[Dave B]

Hasbeen uses 4 week break to remind people he still exists.

Next story....

[CaptainRaiden]

Let's try to remember , kids , that this is about how JV caused an outrage by saying that Felipe , perhaps , deserved a title more than Kimi , when he was recently down racing in Brazil .

As his opinion about it is debatable , how's about we think about debating the point , rather than throwing rocks ?
It's getting a touch tiresome hearing how blind everyone seems to be .

F1boat dragged his annoyance for Lewis into this thread, which is becoming kind of a habit now.

As for JV, I maintain my opinion on him. I'm all for speaking your mind, but this is a sad attempt at trolling the F1 world and gaining publicity. The timing of it is off by a million miles, and he should stick to the series he's driving in, not a series where nobody wants him, and where he has no business being in.

[F1boat]

It's his opinion , and it's debatable , so what's wrong with it ?

It's kind of stupid, that's all. :)
Lord Raiden, about the accident with Hakkinen, I can only say that Mika in the end had great respect for Michael and vice versa. They had the best battles in F1 I have ever seen and unlike this accident, they were always respectful of each other.
I like Mansell and DC has a beautiful Monaco win in 2002 (the first one is not so special). But maybe they are in good company - of the greatest driver ever :)
About the accident of Barrichello, I can tell you that in LMS later last year they were a very similar accident and no one whined :)
About the annoyance of Lewis, I simply compared his outbursts with the ones of JV. And you answered - Darth Schumacher is evil :-)

[CaptainRaiden]

Lord Raiden, about the accident with Hakkinen, I can only say that Mika in the end had great respect for Michael and vice versa. They had the best battles in F1 I have ever seen and unlike this accident, they were always respectful of each other.

The respect and mutual admiration came much later in their careers when they were championship rivals, just like MS has now reconciled with DC after threatening to kill him 13 years ago. Same way Massa and Maldonado will reconcile with Lewis for the incident that you and other fans have whined day and night about.


About the annoyance of Lewis, I simply compared his outbursts with the ones of JV. And you answered - Darth Schumacher is evil :-)

You also said Lewis is a dangerous driver, and you've been pretty consistent about that throughout this thread and other threads, which you being an MS fan, IMO is pretty much blatant double standards. Being an MS fan, you accepted the dangerous and dirty driving that came along with the package, yet you have a problem if Lewis does it. If you have a problem with how he conducts his interviews, fair enough, but IMO it's double standards to criticize his driving and forgive and forget the exact same thing MS has done consistently throughout his career. What, having 7 championships and 91 victories gives him an auto-pardon?

There are no categories or sub-categories. Aggressive driving is aggressive driving, and they're both doing it. Why is one of them being singled out?

[The Black Knight]

So, kinda like this?

cQG9_bfjd5Q

In case you don't know what's going on, and since you're now talking about pre-F1 incidents, this was Schumacher and Hakkinen battling for the lead at the F3 race at Macau, 1990, before both of them entered Formula 1. There were two races. Mika won the first race, and was catching up to MS in the second one, when MS, as usual, swerved into him on the straight and took him out.


I can't see that link but if this is the famous Macau incident where Hakkinen ran into the back of Schumacher, then if you slow it down frame by frame you'll see Mika was catching up Michael in his slipstream when Michael moved to the left (or his right) at almost precisely the same time as Hakkinen. MS did it to defend his position, Mika did it to overtake. It was an unfortunate racing incident. To use it to bash MS is far fetched to say the least.

[The Black Knight]

The respect and mutual admiration came much later in their careers when they were championship rivals, just like MS has now reconciled with DC after threatening to kill him 13 years ago. Same way Massa and Maldonado will reconcile with Lewis for the incident that you and other fans have whined day and night about.



You also said Lewis is a dangerous driver, and you've been pretty consistent about that throughout this thread and other threads, which you being an MS fan, IMO is pretty much blatant double standards. Being an MS fan, you accepted the dangerous and dirty driving that came along with the package, yet you have a problem if Lewis does it. If you have a problem with how he conducts his interviews, fair enough, but IMO it's double standards to criticize his driving and forgive and forget the exact same thing MS has done consistently throughout his career. What, having 7 championships and 91 victories gives him an auto-pardon?

There are no categories or sub-categories. Aggressive driving is aggressive driving, and they're both doing it. Why is one of them being singled out?

I don't know why either of them are being singled out. No one driver is a saint. They all make mistakes. Again, I'm foremost a MS fan, and I'll happily admit that MS was a far dirtirer driver than Lewis. I don't believe that Lewis ever intentionally went out of his way to take someone out of the race like MS did to JV in Jerez in the heat of the moment. When you compete there are simply situations where you don't make the right call. Fair enough if you don't like Lewis press personality. If you prefer drones that spout PR bull**** then, in my opinoin, that's just a reflection of your own PC world view. To say that Lewis or MS were ever dangerous on track is rubbish though. Like all great drivers they had their moments where they did silly maneuvres but in the heat of the moment you'll sometimes do things that aren't politically correct to the armchair judges. The frequency of these actions will vary from driver to driver and the positions they are in because no two drivers are the same. This doesn't make them dangerous, it makes them racers and it is also what makes F1 so interesting.

I can't think of one driver in the history of F1 that I would regard as dangerous. Maybe Senna if we take the isolated Japan 1990 incident but other than that all that differs from driver to driver are levels of aggression. This doesn't make them dangerous and if any other driver on the track has an issue with them then perhaps they are in the wrong sport because F1 is dangerous. It always has been, always will be. If you aren't tough enough to take on the big boys and their attitudes then you should not be in F1.

[CaptainRaiden]

I can't see that link but if this is the famous Macau incident where Hakkinen ran into the back of Schumacher, then if you slow it down frame by frame you'll see Mika was catching up Michael in his slipstream when Michael moved to the left (or his right) at almost precisely the same time as Hakkinen. MS did it to defend his position, Mika did it to overtake. It was an unfortunate racing incident. To use it to bash MS is far fetched to say the least.

Not bashing. That video was in response to F1boat's claim of Lewis turning his car in front of other guys in GP2. Since we're talking pre-F1 days, I thought this would be a good example.

I don't think that was deliberate by MS. Nobody wants to ruin their own race, but he could see Mika's car closing in, in his mirrors, and could have moved earlier to break the tow, but he moved at the very last moment just when Mika had started to move. And that was only going to result in one thing. IMO poor driving from MS.

[The Black Knight]

Not bashing. That video was in response to F1boat's claim of Lewis turning his car in front of other guys in GP2. Since we're talking pre-F1 days, I thought this would be a good example.

I don't think that was deliberate by MS. Nobody wants to ruin their own race, but he could see Mika's car closing in, in his mirrors, and could have moved earlier to break the tow, but he moved at the very last moment just when Mika had started to move. And that was only going to result in one thing. IMO poor driving from MS.

You can't possibly lay bad driving on MS there. Mika ran into the back of him no matter what spin you put on it. It's not like MS brake tested hiim or anything. It's a racing incident. Mika's fault if you have to point the finger anywhere for running into the back of MS. He could have backed off when he saw MS move to the right as well instead of running into the back of him foot to the floor.

[CaptainRaiden]

You can't possibly lay bad driving on MS there. Mika ran into the back of him no matter what spin you put on it. It's not like MS brake tested hiim or anything. It's a racing incident. Mika's fault if you have to point the finger anywhere for running into the back of MS. He could have backed off when he saw MS move to the right as well intead of running into the back of him foot to the floor.

The contradiction in your post is epic. You first say it's Mika's fault, then you say it's a racing incident, and then again you say it's Mika's fault. :laugh: Make up your mind. Oh yeah, it's Mika's fault for trying to slipstream MS and then have MS make a sudden move right in front of him on at least a 20 meter wide track. Bottom line is, Mika would have made the pass, had Michael not made a sudden move, no matter what spin you put on it. It's like MS woke up suddenly and saw his mirrors full of the red and white car, and decided to turn just as Mika was moving.

You can block a car by breaking its tow, or if you're side-by-side you can even squeeze the car trying to overtake you, away from the racing line, or into the wall in Michael's case, but you can't just make sudden move changes when a car is THAT close, almost at your rear wheel. That will only end in contact. You claim you've raced, so you must know very well that while slipstreaming if you commit to an overtake, a LOT depends on the car in front, as the window of opportunity is really very small because of the extra speed gained by the tow. Probably the accident wouldn't have happened if Mika would have been more patient and used his brakes. I'd call this a rookie mistake as both drivers were immature and inexperienced. But still I'd lay more fault on MS, because he swerved suddenly, which set the ball in motion.

[The Black Knight]

The contradiction in your post is epic. You first say it's Mika's fault, then you say it's a racing incident, and then again you say it's Mika's fault. :laugh: Make up your mind. Oh yeah, it's Mika's fault for trying to slipstream MS and then have MS make a sudden move right in front of him on at least a 20 meter wide track. Bottom line is, Mika would have made the pass, had Michael not made a sudden move, no matter what spin you put on it. It's like MS woke up suddenly and saw his mirrors full of the red and white car, and decided to turn just as Mika was moving.
You can block a car by breaking its tow, or if you're side-by-side you can even squeeze the car trying to overtake you, away from the racing line, or into the wall in Michael's case, but you can't just make sudden move changes when a car is THAT close, almost at your rear wheel. That will only end in contact. You claim you've raced, so you must know very well that while slipstreaming if you commit to an overtake, a LOT depends on the car in front, as the window of opportunity is really very small because of the extra speed gained by the tow. Probably the accident wouldn't have happened if Mika would have been more patient and used his brakes. I'd call this a rookie mistake as both drivers were immature and inexperienced. But still I'd lay more fault on MS, because he swerved suddenly, which set the ball in motion.

There is no contradiction in my post whatsoever. You are creating a contradiction to suit yourself. I'll go through my last post step by step for you to understand:

Mika ran into the back of him no matter what spin you put on it. It's not like MS brake tested him or anything. It's a racing incident.
Pretty obvious. Surely we can agree on this thus far, no?
Now for the rest of it and please note the part in bold:

Mika's fault if you have to point the finger anywhere for running into the back of MS. He could have backed off when he saw MS move to the right as well intead of running into the back of him foot to the floor.

Now, please read this carefully, this time noting the IF in what I'm about to clarify: IF I had a gun to my head and were forced to blame anyone then it would be Mika. Just as MS should have been aware Mika may have been about to pounce, so Mika should have been aware that MS was entitled to move and defend his position. Your assertion that you can't make a sudden move when a car is that close is wrong. You can make the move at anytime and there is nothing in racing rules that state you can't. It just so happened in this case they both moved at exactly the same time which caused the accident. It's simply a by chance incident
Was it a wise move by MS to suddenly move right? No but it wasn't illegal. Was it a wise move by Mika to keep the foot to the floor. No. BUt Mika is the one overtaking and it's up to him to do it correctly. He ran into the back of Schumacher so it always has to be his fault if a gun is put to my head and I'm forced to make a choice but as I say, I don't blame either driver for this incident. I've had similar situations happen to myself where I've been the one in front and behind and it's simply just part of racing.
Is that clearer for you now?

[CaptainRaiden]

First, you have to understand the definition of a "racing incident". When you call an accident a racing incident, you're saying neither driver was at fault. This should be consistent, even if someone did put a gun to your head. So, you can't say it was a racing incident, and still attribute fault at one of them. If one of them is at fault, even 60-40, it is no longer a racing incident.

You first say it was Mika's fault, then you call it a racing incident, and then you say again it was Mika's fault. So yes, that is contradictory. I don't think there has ever been a better example of contradiction.

As for the incident, I've already said as much as I wanted to say in my earlier post. If you're saying it was Mika's fault in this incident, then it was Lewis' fault in the Maldonado incident at Monaco, 2011. You're now saying that the responsibility of an overtake lies completely with the overtaker, something which Daniel said repeatedly in the Monaco 2011 thread, which you disagreed with at the time. Yet now, your viewpoint is different, probably because of bias for MS. At least I am consistent in saying that a clean overtake can never be completed unless the driver being overtaken uses his head.

I attribute it 70%-30% fault on MS, being as unbiased as I can, and nothing more to add. IMO it's futile to drag the discussion further about an F3 incident that happened 21 years ago.

[jas123f1]

What a B*** S*** Jacques ..!!??

Kimi Raikkonen :champion: did deserve the title he won in 2007 - and Jacques Villeneuve is speaking B*ll Sh*t of Kimi - nothing else.

Why he did it ?

Why he didn't simply say:
"I'm Jacques Villeneuve , please don't forget me - do you remember - I'm the guy who ones become The Formula One Champion too... some times last century... what a car I had, it was superior and and what a time ..

Why must so many of those "has been ones something " try to make headlines on this way.. it's so sad ..
--

Jacques Villeneuve you was a great driver and man :champion: and now .. you are nothing :bigcry: .. only begging attention..

[555-04Q2]

Yes, forcing another car almost off track at 300+ kmph is completely safe.



So, kinda like this?

cQG9_bfjd5Q

In case you don't know what's going on, and since you're now talking about pre-F1 incidents, this was Schumacher and Hakkinen battling for the lead at the F3 race at Macau, 1990, before both of them entered Formula 1. There were two races. Mika won the first race, and was catching up to MS in the second one, when MS, as usual, swerved into him on the straight and took him out.



There are many others, those four are just what sprung to mind. And I don't think being in the company of Mansell and Coulthard is a very good thing. :laugh:



Not a chance in hell. :p

:erm: That is Mika driving into the back of The Shoe, not The Shoe swerving into the side of Mika as you stated. Mika took The Shoe out here, not the other way round!!!

[CaptainRaiden]

:erm: That is Mika driving into the back of The Shoe, not The Shoe swerving into the side of Mika as you stated. Mika took The Shoe out here, not the other way round!!!

Oh, surprise, surprise! Another Schumacher fan. :p

And I didn't say Schumacher swerved to the side of Mika. He tried to break the tow too late, big difference.

[The Black Knight]

First, you have to understand the definition of a "racing incident". When you call an accident a racing incident, you're saying neither driver was at fault. This should be consistent, even if someone did put a gun to your head. So, you can't say it was a racing incident, and still attribute fault at one of them. If one of them is at fault, even 60-40, it is no longer a racing incident.
You first say it was Mika's fault, then you call it a racing incident, and then you say again it was Mika's fault. So yes, that is contradictory. I don't think there has ever been a better example of contradiction.
As for the incident, I've already said as much as I wanted to say in my earlier post. If you're saying it was Mika's fault in this incident, then it was Lewis' fault in the Maldonado incident at Monaco, 2011. You're now saying that the responsibility of an overtake lies completely with the overtaker, something which Daniel said repeatedly in the Monaco 2011 thread, which you disagreed with at the time. Yet now, your viewpoint is different, probably because of bias for MS. At least I am consistent in saying that a clean overtake can never be completed unless the driver being overtaken uses his head.
I attribute it 70%-30% fault on MS, being as unbiased as I can, and nothing more to add. IMO it's futile to drag the discussion further about an F3 incident that happened 21 years ago.
Wow, I'm actually beginning to see this as futile alright. I'm also wondering if you're intentionally missing the points of my posts and twisting what I'm saying or if you're simply slow and I had never noticed it before. I've explained why there is no contradiction because I've put an IF in there. If you want baby steps then go back to school and learn the impact a conditional clause has on the hypothetical, the hypothetical here being "IF I had to point a finger". Sweet Jebus!
The Lewis Maldonado incident is a completely separate incident to this which I have clarified my position on numerous of times. Rather than go over that again I'll ignore anything in your post that refers to it.
I completely agree that a clean overtake can only be completed if the guy in front uses his head. The point is Hakkinen was never overtaking Schumacher nor had he begun to, rather he simply ran into the back of him. He was never alongside Schumacher. He was never even close to beginning to overtake. He ran into the back of him because they both happened to make, what I would regard as ligitimate moves, at precisely the same time.
When I wrote "BUt Mika is the one overtaking and it's up to him to do it correctly." I was wrong, I should have wrote it is up to him to initiate it correctly, which I'm sure you'll agree with. It's the job of the guy in front to make it as hard as possible for him to initiate an overtake while being fair, which is exactly what Schumacher was doing by moving to the right to get Hakkinen out of his slipstream. He was giving Hakkinen the left side of the circuit. Yes, Schuey should have realised that Hakkinen may move to the right, likewise, Hakkinen should have been prepared for Schumacher to move to the right and have been prepared to back out. Hakkinen had the better view and should not have hit Schumacher. But to repeat for the last time, I could not in good conscience really blame either driver for this incident. They were fighitng for position and an incident occurred. In a perfect world Hakkinen would have backed out and not hit the back of MS but in realtime it is unreasonable to expect him to react that quickly thus it's a racing incident.

[Retro Formula 1]

Jacques shoots his gob off again.... big deal.

People don't like how drivers interview.... who cares.

Surely we all like F1 for the close racing, the noise, the smell, the wheel to wheel excitement? I can only think of one member that doesn't so why are so many of us worried about what Jacky-boy says in a throw away comment that panders to a partisan Massa crowd. Jeeezzzzzzus.

As for the discussions about who did what to who, then we all know that the only 2 deliberate crashes were Senna on Prost and Jnr to gift Fred a win. Of those, the Senna one was unforgivable IMHO (as a Senna fan) and that sort of business has no place in F1. The difference between that and the Schumy examples are that although I think MS did take Jv and DH out on purpose, I think that both were spontaneous reactions and not premeditated like the Senna move. Rascasse is debatable whether he planned that as a strategy but it is undeniable that it was deliberate. However, all the incidents I mentioned were deliberate acts of cheating whether premeditated or not. This is a great pity because any true racing fan can't deny the brilliance of MS and the flaws in his career do detract from his breathtaking racing.

Perhaps it's me though but I am confused that people that claim to be MS fans constantly criticise Lewis. They are 2 of the very best drivers we have seen in the history of F1. They are fast, aggressive and have the ability to make things happen that most other drivers can't. From a pure racing perspective, ignoring the aforementioned cheats from Schumy and silly statements from Lewis, they are cast from the same mould.

[The Black Knight]

Jacques shoots his gob off again.... big deal.

People don't like how drivers interview.... who cares.

Surely we all like F1 for the close racing, the noise, the smell, the wheel to wheel excitement? I can only think of one member that doesn't so why are so many of us worried about what Jacky-boy says in a throw away comment that panders to a partisan Massa crowd. Jeeezzzzzzus.

As for the discussions about who did what to who, then we all know that the only 2 deliberate crashes were Senna on Prost and Jnr to gift Fred a win. Of those, the Senna one was unforgivable IMHO (as a Senna fan) and that sort of business has no place in F1. The difference between that and the Schumy examples are that although I think MS did take Jv and DH out on purpose, I think that both were spontaneous reactions and not premeditated like the Senna move. Rascasse is debatable whether he planned that as a strategy but it is undeniable that it was deliberate. However, all the incidents I mentioned were deliberate acts of cheating whether premeditated or not. This is a great pity because any true racing fan can't deny the brilliance of MS and the flaws in his career do detract from his breathtaking racing.

Perhaps it's me though but I am confused that people that claim to be MS fans constantly criticise Lewis. They are 2 of the very best drivers we have seen in the history of F1. They are fast, aggressive and have the ability to make things happen that most other drivers can't. From a pure racing perspective, ignoring the aforementioned cheats from Schumy and silly statements from Lewis, they are cast from the same mould.
This confuses me as well. I can't understand how you can like one and not the other. If it's because of their off track persona then perhaps one would be better of watching a soap.

[Retro Formula 1]

Oh, I don't like Schumy and will never be a fan of his again for his cheats, but thats different to denying his brilliance as a driver.

[CaptainRaiden]

Wow, I'm actually beginning to see this as futile alright. I'm also wondering if you're intentionally missing the points of my posts and twisting what I'm saying or if you're simply slow and I had never noticed it before. I've explained why there is no contradiction because I've put an IF in there. If you want baby steps then go back to school and learn the impact a conditional clause has on the hypothetical, the hypothetical here being "IF I had to point a finger". Sweet Jebus!

You're walking the line on throwing personal insults, so I'd suggest you refrain from it. You don't wanna go there. And yes, it is futile to discuss anything if your understanding of the phrase "racing incident" is at such an elementary level. Also, no point in repeating stuff either, because it seems you're only running through posts instead of actually reading them.


I completely agree that a clean overtake can only be completed if the guy in front uses his head. The point is Hakkinen was never overtaking Schumacher nor had he begun to, rather he simply ran into the back of him. He was never alongside Schumacher. He was never even close to beginning to overtake. He ran into the back of him because they both happened to make, what I would regard as ligitimate moves, at precisely the same time.

Mika had enough tow to get in front of MS before the next turn. So yeah, it was the initiating of an overtaking move, which MS tried to stop, but too late. You don't move across THAT late! You check your mirrors, and if the car is gaining on you, and is at a fair distance, then you move to break the tow. Even though my single seater racing experience is VERY small and at an amateur level, still the car I drove was pretty close to Formula BMW level, and I have experienced being overtaken, and done little overtaking of my own. MS turning right was a quick reaction to Mika turning right, and that resulted in the accident.

[CaptainRaiden]

It looks more and more likely that MS fans will not accept MS' fault in that incident, and so this will only go round in circles, with more excuses and more counter-attacking. Unfortunately work is too much of a biatch for me to indulge any longer in this. If only I used the keyboard this much at work, my productivity would be so kickass! :p

[airshifter]

Jacques shoots his gob off again.... big deal.

People don't like how drivers interview.... who cares.

Surely we all like F1 for the close racing, the noise, the smell, the wheel to wheel excitement? I can only think of one member that doesn't so why are so many of us worried about what Jacky-boy says in a throw away comment that panders to a partisan Massa crowd. Jeeezzzzzzus.

As for the discussions about who did what to who, then we all know that the only 2 deliberate crashes were Senna on Prost and Jnr to gift Fred a win. Of those, the Senna one was unforgivable IMHO (as a Senna fan) and that sort of business has no place in F1. The difference between that and the Schumy examples are that although I think MS did take Jv and DH out on purpose, I think that both were spontaneous reactions and not premeditated like the Senna move. Rascasse is debatable whether he planned that as a strategy but it is undeniable that it was deliberate. However, all the incidents I mentioned were deliberate acts of cheating whether premeditated or not. This is a great pity because any true racing fan can't deny the brilliance of MS and the flaws in his career do detract from his breathtaking racing.

Perhaps it's me though but I am confused that people that claim to be MS fans constantly criticise Lewis. They are 2 of the very best drivers we have seen in the history of F1. They are fast, aggressive and have the ability to make things happen that most other drivers can't. From a pure racing perspective, ignoring the aforementioned cheats from Schumy and silly statements from Lewis, they are cast from the same mould.


Post of the thread.

Sure there have been certain drivers I prefer the personality of them more. But even the ones I've disliked I can admire that they are great or brilliant drivers. For every bad or questionable move they make there is another that displayed pure brilliance that made things right and made up for the dumb or bad moves.

[The Black Knight]

You're walking the line on throwing personal insults, so I'd suggest you refrain from it. You don't wanna go there. And yes, it is futile to discuss anything if your understanding of the phrase "racing incident" is at such an elementary level. Also, no point in repeating stuff either, because it seems you're only running through posts instead of actually reading them.


My understanding of a racing incident isn't elementary and far from it. It appears, on the other hand, that your understanding of English lenguage is very elementary, so much so that you don't know the difference between Ifs and fact. This much is very clear from your posts. You are the one running through posts not looking out for the IF's. You clearly demonstrate you don't have the ability to distinguish between what I'm saying is a racing incident and isn't. I really can't explain any further to you. Sorry for you if you can't get it, it's not my problem but I'm not repeating myself anymore.


Mika had enough tow to get in front of MS before the next turn. So yeah, it was the initiating of an overtaking move, which MS tried to stop, but too late. You don't move across THAT late! You check your mirrors, and if the car is gaining on you, and is at a fair distance, then you move to break the tow. Even though my single seater racing experience is VERY small and at an amateur level, still the car I drove was pretty close to Formula BMW level, and I have experienced being overtaken, and done little overtaking of my own. MS turning right was a quick reaction to Mika turning right, and that resulted in the accident.

They both moved at the same time. This is clear in the video. This is why it's a racing incident and why neither is at fault.

I'm glad that you got to experience some single seater action. Every motor racingt fanatic should do that in their life. My experience is more vast than yours but that has little to do with the situation at hand. Our opinions simply differ on this situation. I believe we are going to have to agree to disagree. All I say is I can't possibly see how MS can ever be at fault or any driver for that matter when they are hit from behind. Looking in mirrors is all well and good but they don't give you the view you need to always make the correct decision. I could go over it again but I'll only be repeating what I've already said for the 4th or 5th time.

Regarding your assertion of me being bias to MS you are wrong. I am more than happy to admit when MS is at fault in any given situation. I have also criticised him, even in this thread. I may be a fan of MS but I'm not blind to his flaws either.

[DexDexter]

:erm: That is Mika driving into the back of The Shoe, not The Shoe swerving into the side of Mika as you stated. Mika took The Shoe out here, not the other way round!!!

You seem to have a distinct dislike for all the Finnish drivers, did you eat Finnish food or something somewhere? :)

[CaptainRaiden]

My understanding of a racing incident isn't elementary and far from it.

Just saying it doesn't mean it isn't.


It appears, on the other hand, that your understanding of English lenguage is very elementary, so much so that you don't know the difference between Ifs and fact. This much is very clear from your posts. You are the one running through posts not looking out for the IF's. You clearly demonstrate you don't have the ability to distinguish between what I'm saying is a racing incident and isn't. I really can't explain any further to you. Sorry for you if you can't get it, it's not my problem but I'm not repeating myself anymore.

Yeah, I'll work on improving my "language". You're still point blank denying that you contradicted yourself in your post. Here, let me quote you, so you can understand:


You can't possibly lay bad driving on MS there. Mika ran into the back of him no matter what spin you put on it. It's not like MS brake tested hiim or anything. It's a racing incident. Mika's fault if you have to point the finger anywhere for running into the back of MS.

There, I put it in bold for you to understand. That's a clear case of contradiction. Please do understand that when you call it a racing incident, you mean that neither driver is at fault or are EQUALLY at fault. What you basically said was like this: Mika is at fault - blah blah blah - racing incident - blah blah blah - Mika is at fault. Doesn't make any sense, and I think you're only confusing yourself further here.

[CaptainRaiden]

I'm glad that you got to experience some single seater action. Every motor racingt fanatic should do that in their life. My experience is more vast than yours but that has little to do with the situation at hand. Our opinions simply differ on this situation. I believe we are going to have to agree to disagree. All I say is I can't possibly see how MS can ever be at fault or any driver for that matter when they are hit from behind. Looking in mirrors is all well and good but they don't give you the view you need to always make the correct decision. I could go over it again but I'll only be repeating what I've already said for the 4th or 5th time.

Regarding your assertion of me being bias to MS you are wrong. I am more than happy to admit when MS is at fault in any given situation. I have also criticised him, even in this thread. I may be a fan of MS but I'm not blind to his flaws either.

As for the rest of your post, I have to agree with you that we have to agree to disagree. ;)

[555-04Q2]

Oh, surprise, surprise! Another Schumacher fan. :p

And I didn't say Schumacher swerved to the side of Mika. He tried to break the tow too late, big difference.

Yes you did.

Post #77: .....when MS, as usual, swerved into him on the straight and took him out.

[The Black Knight]

Just saying it doesn't mean it isn't.



Yeah, I'll work on improving my "language". You're still point blank denying that you contradicted yourself in your post. Here, let me quote you, so you can understand:



There, I put it in bold for you to understand. That's a clear case of contradiction. Please do understand that when you call it a racing incident, you mean that neither driver is at fault or are EQUALLY at fault. What you basically said was like this: Mika is at fault - blah blah blah - racing incident - blah blah blah - Mika is at fault. Doesn't make any sense, and I think you're only confusing yourself further here.

Congratulations on finding the typo. I'm sure nobody has ever done that before.

On my final post on this, what I was doing here was stating the case why MS could not have blame laid against him in this case. I then stated it was a racing incident. I have also, in other posts, clarified why I don't regard this incident as Mika's fault either. Now, here is the IF part that you don't appear capable of grasping. IF AND ONLY IF I had to place blame, i.e. IF someone were to offer me a few million to place blame here at either Mika or Schuey's feet, which I wouldn't like doing for such an incident but I would for that money, then I'd lay the blame at Mika's feet because he hit Schumacher from behind and HE was the only one that could have avoided that incident had he been able to react quick enough. But again, as I've said repeatedly, in the heat of the moment it is unreasonable to expect him to have avoided that incident in the time frame he had.

Do you get what I'm saying now?

[F1boat]

The later posts convinced me that Lord Raiden is likely a highly emotional and biased user in the forum, therefore I may sadly stop adding comments to a once interesting discussion what constitutes dangerous driving and what not. The JV topic IMO is also covered...

[CaptainRaiden]

Yes you did.

Post #77: .....when MS, as usual, swerved into him on the straight and took him out.

That still doesn't in any way imply that he swerved into the side of him. Anybody with two eyes can see Mika was not alongside, but about to get alongside.

[CaptainRaiden]

Congratulations on finding the typo. I'm sure nobody has ever done that before.

On my final post on this, what I was doing here was stating the case why MS could not have blame laid against him in this case. I then stated it was a racing incident. I have also, in other posts, clarified why I don't regard this incident as Mika's fault either. Now, here is the IF part that you don't appear capable of grasping. IF AND ONLY IF I had to place blame, i.e. IF someone were to offer me a few million to place blame here at either Mika or Schuey's feet, which I wouldn't like doing for such an incident but I would for that money, then I'd lay the blame at Mika's feet because he hit Schumacher from behind and HE was the only one that could have avoided that incident had he been able to react quick enough. But again, as I've said repeatedly, in the heat of the moment it is unreasonable to expect him to have avoided that incident in the time frame he had.

Do you get what I'm saying now?

Look dude, we can debate this until rapture. As an answer to your post, I don't wanna repeat everything else I said before, so like you said before, let's just agree to disagree.

[CaptainRaiden]

The later posts convinced me that Lord Raiden is likely a highly emotional and biased user in the forum, therefore I may sadly stop adding comments to a once interesting discussion what constitutes dangerous driving and what not. The JV topic IMO is also covered...

Yep, as expected, another useless, low calorie comment, and a case of the pot calling the kettle black. First practice what you preach, and then stop spewing garbage in every thread by bashing Lewis every chance you get. You should have stopped posting after the ridiculously ignorant "MS' kindness by giving Fisi a lift" post. Full stop. Also a good idea is to keep your opinions about others to yourself. ;)

[The Black Knight]

Look dude, we can debate this until rapture. As an answer to your post, I don't wanna repeat everything else I said before, so like you said before, let's just agree to disagree.

Fair enough. Fine with me.

[F1boat]

Yep, as expected, another useless, low calorie comment, and a case of the pot calling the kettle black. First practice what you preach, and then stop spewing garbage in every thread by bashing Lewis every chance you get. You should have stopped posting after the ridiculously ignorant "MS' kindness by giving Fisi a lift" post. Full stop. Also a good idea is to keep your opinions about others to yourself. ;)

http://gnc.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pGNC1-6954666dt.jpg
Heartily recommended for you.

[CaptainRaiden]

Is it good?

[F1boat]

I can only hope that it will be helpful :)

[555-04Q2]

That still doesn't in any way imply that he swerved into the side of him. Anybody with two eyes can see Mika was not alongside, but about to get alongside.

:erm: ...uhhh....ahhhh.....mmmmm....geeee.... :?:

[CaptainRaiden]

:erm: ...uhhh....ahhhh.....mmmmm....geeee.... :?:

Fap all you want, I never said he swerved into the side of him. Let's look at it slowly...


Mika won the first race, and was catching up to MS in the second one, when MS, as usual, swerved into him on the straight and took him out.


:erm: That is Mika driving into the back of The Shoe, not The Shoe swerving into the side of Mika as you stated. Mika took The Shoe out here, not the other way round!!!

Please stop trying to put words into other people's mouths. :) Probably I should have chosen better words. Shoe suddenly swerved into "the path" of Mika, just when Mika was getting alongside. How's that? Still not good?

You can't be seriously saying that is Mika's fault. It is a racing incident at best, if you wanna be unbiased. Oh I forgot you're an MS fan, and for you lot he can never do no wrong. When he farts, first there's a rainbow, then only bunnies come out spreading love and joy all around the world. :rolleyes:

[The Black Knight]

Fap all you want, I never said he swerved into the side of him. Let's look at it slowly...





Please stop trying to put words into other people's mouths. :) Probably I should have chosen better words. Shoe suddenly swerved into "the path" of Mika, just when Mika was getting alongside. How's that? Still not good?

You can't be seriously saying that is Mika's fault. It is a racing incident at best, if you wanna be unbiased. Oh I forgot you're an MS fan, and for you lot he can never do no wrong. When he farts, first there's a rainbow, then only bunnies come out spreading love and joy all around the world. :rolleyes:

LMAO@ the bunnies spreading love and joy

Just like you are not an MS fan and are biased against him. I still don't understand how you come up with the conclusion that MS swerved into Mika's path. Now, admittedly, I haven't watched that video in a longtime but I do remember viewing it closely before and witnessing both cars moving at exactly the same time.

I know I said I'd leave this be but you do realise by stating this was a racing incident at best you're contradicting what you wrote to me in previous posts? What I've been saying all along is that it's a racing incident but at worst Mika's fault because he drove into Michael's rear. You're saying it's a racing incident at best but otherwise MS fault becuase he drove into Mika's path despite them both moving at the same time. Sounds like we've the same position, except you favour Mika, I favour MS :) That is all.

[CaptainRaiden]

Just like you are not an MS fan and are biased against him. I still don't understand how you come up with the conclusion that MS swerved into Mika's path. Now, admittedly, I haven't watched that video in a longtime but I do remember viewing it closely before and witnessing both cars moving at exactly the same time.

Why would MS flick his steering wheel right suddenly away from the racing line? To block Mika, right? IMHO, the problem is that he moved to defend too late, and that resulted in them crashing. Mika could have backed off too, but it was too late.


I know I said I'd leave this be but ou do realise by stating this was a racing incident at best you're contradicting what you wrote to me in previous posts? What I've been saying all along is that it's a racing incident but at worst Mika's fault because he drove into Michael's rear. You're saying it's a racing incident at best but otherwise MS fault becuase he drove into Mika's path despite them both moving at the same time. Sounds like we've the same position, except you favour Mika, I favour MS :) That is all.

I also added "If you wanna be unbiased," which none of us are in this thread. :D