Tottenham Riots [Archive] - Motorsport Forums

Brown, Jon Brow

8th August 2011, 13:24

Daniel

8th August 2011, 13:28

So, some dickhead shoots at the police, gets himself (rightly) shot dead in the process, and loads of people feel that there's some injustice here?!

Then even more strangely, the express their lament at the perceived lack of justice they go and riot, burn down buildings and loot others. What the hell is wrong with people?

The above is quote of my friends facebook status. I would side with agreeing with this, but I don't think this is that simplistic.

I really hope those involved in the riots are brought to justice, but I do feel the Metropolitan Police aren't innocent themselves.

From what I heard this was a protest outside a police station that turned nasty when the police used overly agressive force on a 16 year old girl who was throwing stuff at the police station, then it all kicked off.

Tbh I think if you throw something at the Police or a member of the public or a Tesco, then I don't think you deserve to be treated with any respect.

People these days know exactly what they can get away with and push the limits and sometimes you wonder if we need to go a little back the other way where people are **** scared to loot, or riot (note I said riot, not protest) and damage property. I think the media are trying to merely place a legitimate (ish) excuse over all of this when really it's simply not acceptable at all.

Malbec

8th August 2011, 14:07

So, some dickhead shoots at the police, gets himself (rightly) shot dead in the process, and loads of people feel that there's some injustice here?!

Then even more strangely, the express their lament at the perceived lack of justice they go and riot, burn down buildings and loot others. What the hell is wrong with people?

The above is quote of my friends facebook status. I would side with agreeing with this, but I don't think this is that simplistic.

I really hope those involved in the riots are brought to justice, but I do feel the Metropolitan Police aren't innocent themselves.

From what I heard this was a protest outside a police station that turned nasty when the police used overly agressive force on a 16 year old girl who was throwing stuff at the police station, then it all kicked off.

The police fired two shots at the guy who was killed, he didn't fire at all. Whether he'd drawn a gun isn't clear.

The police, especially the riot police are getting themselves a bit of a reputation in London.

Previously in order to get into trouble with the police it helped if you were poor and not white. Recently with a wider segment of the population going on demonstrations and finding out the hard way what the riot police can be like, there is increasing dislike of the police. These guys are often as desperate for a fight as elements of the crowd they are trying to control. Its a shame because in my view some parts of the police have changed their approach over the past couple of decades to work with the community and not against it.

There are wider issues at stake here, Tottenham and Edmonton are poor areas surrounded by increasingly affluent areas. Unemployment went up with the crash and has stayed up, kids graduating from school are unable to find jobs and lack the education to have good prospects. There is definitely a social element to this riot.

Daniel

8th August 2011, 14:22

The police fired two shots at the guy who was killed, he didn't fire at all. Whether he'd drawn a gun isn't clear.

The police, especially the riot police are getting themselves a bit of a reputation in London.

Previously in order to get into trouble with the police it helped if you were poor and not white. Recently with a wider segment of the population going on demonstrations and finding out the hard way what the riot police can be like, there is increasing dislike of the police. These guys are often as desperate for a fight as elements of the crowd they are trying to control. Its a shame because in my view some parts of the police have changed their approach over the past couple of decades to work with the community and not against it.

There are wider issues at stake here, Tottenham and Edmonton are poor areas surrounded by increasingly affluent areas. Unemployment went up with the crash and has stayed up, kids graduating from school are unable to find jobs and lack the education to have good prospects. There is definitely a social element to this riot.

How did the Policeman get shot then? :confused:

Malbec

8th August 2011, 14:26

He was hit by a police issue bullet.

Tottenham riot: bullet lodged in officer's radio at time of Mark Duggan death 'was police issue' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8687804/Tottenham-riot-bullet-lodged-in-officers-radio-at-time-of-Mark-Duggan-death-was-police-issue.html)

Daniel

8th August 2011, 16:05

Retro Formula 1

8th August 2011, 17:03

I think we all know the Met tend to be a bit blunt and although we don't know the full facts yet, it does appear this could have been dealt with quite differently.

Saying that, there are a lot of Social problems in that area. Most are generated within the community though and I am not excusing this thuggish behaviour one bit. What we saw after the rather simplistic and course treatment by the Met was disgraceful criminal rioting. It was rent a mob at it's best and nothing to do with the shooting.

Shot themselves in the foot rather with attacking Aldi. The closest one is now 5 miles away and it'll take ages to get JJB reopened. No food, no clothing. It's terrible!!!

Rudy Tamasz

8th August 2011, 17:13

Looking at what successively happens in France, Greece, the UK etc. from a problematic East European country I tend to think that riots are a sort of leisure activities or even sport for young people. When they get bored with entertainment, substances, sex etc. and need that shot of adrenaline they amuse themselves by provoking police, torching cars, looting stores and getting away with it. Am I wrong?

BDunnell

8th August 2011, 17:17

I think we all know the Met tend to be a bit blunt and although we don't know the full facts yet, it does appear this could have been dealt with quite differently.

Saying that, there are a lot of Social problems in that area. Most are generated within the community though and I am not excusing this thuggish behaviour one bit. What we saw after the rather simplistic and course treatment by the Met was disgraceful criminal rioting. It was rent a mob at it's best and nothing to do with the shooting.

I agree with all of that. Such behaviour by the rioters does little to further the cause of those with all sorts of legitimate grievances against the Met, of which they are many at present.

BDunnell

8th August 2011, 17:18

Retro Formula 1

8th August 2011, 17:18

I think you're spot on. Protest is right and legitimate but always gives way to the criminal element who are up for a ruck in the same way as football hooligans.

BDunnell

8th August 2011, 17:19

I think you're spot on. Protest is right and legitimate but always gives way to the criminal element who are up for a ruck in the same way as football hooligans.

As evidenced by the targets chosen by the rioters, which had nothing to do with any of their grievances.

Retro Formula 1

8th August 2011, 17:21

Yes, you are, in that it is wrong to suggest that all — or even anything approaching a majority of — young people indulge in such activities.

I don't think Rudy was suggesting all young people but it is becoming pretty commonplace that any sort of legitimate protest is hijacked by the rioters.

Daniel

8th August 2011, 17:22

As evidenced by the targets chosen by the rioters, which had nothing to do with any of their grievances.

Tbh I think it's coincidental that some of the places which were attacked in the previous riots this year could be considered targets. I think there is just a group of people who want to riot and cause destruction.

These people are just idiots who undermine the rights of people to have a genuine protest.

Daniel

8th August 2011, 17:23

I don't think Rudy was suggesting all young people but it is becoming pretty commonplace that any sort of legitimate protest is hijacked by the rioters.

That's how I read it also.

BDunnell

8th August 2011, 17:25

I don't think Rudy was suggesting all young people but it is becoming pretty commonplace that any sort of legitimate protest is hijacked by the rioters.

I didn't think that was the point he was making, though.

Bob Riebe

8th August 2011, 17:38

Fair play then. Still no excuse for what happened afterwards.Which means nothing.
Attaining ammunition, is far easier than obtaining a weapon in most locals world-wide.
I have many "police issue" cartridges in my collection.

Daniel

8th August 2011, 17:40

Which means nothing.
Attaining ammunition, is far easier than obtaining a weapon in most locals world-wide.
I have many "police issue" cartridges in my collection.
Of course, but it 's not as clear cut as first thought.

Malbec

8th August 2011, 17:54

Saying that, there are a lot of Social problems in that area. Most are generated within the community though and I am not excusing this thuggish behaviour one bit. What we saw after the rather simplistic and course treatment by the Met was disgraceful criminal rioting. It was rent a mob at it's best and nothing to do with the shooting.

Shot themselves in the foot rather with attacking Aldi. The closest one is now 5 miles away and it'll take ages to get JJB reopened. No food, no clothing. It's terrible!!!

I agree with most of your post.

Taking a look at the type of shops looted across London though I don't think the looting was of an organised criminal variety, rather opportunistic. Mobile phones, games, sports and consumer electronics shops as well as cash machines bore the brunt over the weekend.

I still think that the fact that the riots happened at all though is due to wider causes than merely the shooting itself or kids wanting to vent steam. There are deep rooted problems in that area including a strong element of gang culture and a sense of deprivation and alienation.

Daniel

8th August 2011, 17:56

I agree with most of your post.

Taking a look at the type of shops looted across London though I don't think the looting was of an organised criminal variety, rather opportunistic. Mobile phones, games, sports and consumer electronics shops as well as cash machines bore the brunt over the weekend.

I still think that the fact that the riots happened at all though is due to wider causes than merely the shooting itself or kids wanting to vent steam. There are deep rooted problems in that area including a strong element of gang culture and a sense of deprivation and alienation.

I'm sorry but I don't agree, a lot of the people involved in the protests earlier this year weren't deprived people at all.

Malbec

8th August 2011, 17:58

I'm sorry but I don't agree, a lot of the people involved in the protests earlier this year weren't deprived people at all.

Which is why I was talking about the riots over this weekend Daniel.

The riots that happened this weekend are VERY different to the protests that occurred earlier this year and I see very few parallels except that the riot police were involved.

BDunnell

8th August 2011, 18:01

I'm sorry but I don't agree, a lot of the people involved in the protests earlier this year weren't deprived people at all.

One doesn't have to be deprived to take part in a protest.

BDunnell

8th August 2011, 18:03

I agree with most of your post.

Taking a look at the type of shops looted across London though I don't think the looting was of an organised criminal variety, rather opportunistic. Mobile phones, games, sports and consumer electronics shops as well as cash machines bore the brunt over the weekend.

I still think that the fact that the riots happened at all though is due to wider causes than merely the shooting itself or kids wanting to vent steam. There are deep rooted problems in that area including a strong element of gang culture and a sense of deprivation and alienation.

I very much agree — but I don't think anyone is suggesting that the violence was anything other than opportunistic.

ifacompare

8th August 2011, 19:44

i think it's sickening.

Langdale Forest

8th August 2011, 19:47

As bad as it may be, it's more exiting that the normal political news and news about bankrupt Greece.

Langdale Forest

8th August 2011, 20:27

This thread should be remaned 'London riots', as the riots have spread to almost all corners of London now.

driveace

8th August 2011, 20:50

am i getting this wrong,BUT I thought the Police were trying to arrest a gang member/leader,who was in a taxi.A shot was fired ,untill tomorrow we will not know by whom,BUT this guy had a GUN,!!!! His friends who were not there said he would not fire the gun at the police,and that he had put the gun down.NOW if you were a tactical member of the Met ,and you had all the history of this guy,and knew that he was a gun carrier,would you be calling nicely to him to surrender ,OR would you be armed too ?
These riots are ,a reason to loot and cause trouble,and the decent members of society,will be the ones to suffer ,when the likes of Aldi,and JMB sport,may decide not to bother opening in that area again

Langdale Forest

8th August 2011, 20:54

This is turning into 'England riots', incidents in Birmingham and Leeds now....

Captain VXR

8th August 2011, 21:49

I very much doubt the riots will spread to Bath/Bristol, not enough chavs round here
My brother had to evacuate from a Sainsbury's in London today because looters were approaching
If most of the rioters cared about the guy who was shot and the 16 year old girl who got a beating from the Police, they'd be smashing up Police Stations, not looting shops and burning cars and buses

Langdale Forest

8th August 2011, 22:00

This is getting close to becoming a crisis, how long will it go on for?

All because the police shot somebody who was thretening them....

Captain VXR

8th August 2011, 22:14

This is getting close to becoming a crisis, how long will it go on for?

No longer than the LA riots - 6 days - chavs have a short attention span

MrJan

8th August 2011, 22:34

There may be a handful that have a political message, but those setting fire to shops, houses and cars don't If you're angry at the Met then why would you torch a car that someone has saved to buy? They're ****s and deserve being dealt with the American way, shoot the ****ers and make up a reason for it later on.

Daniel

8th August 2011, 22:43

Tbh I think they need to start shooting people. Make Tianenman Square look like a love in.

Langdale Forest

8th August 2011, 22:52

If my shop/busisness was burnt out by the rioters, I would feel very tempted to shoot the rioters, that's how the shop owners feel and i'm sure alot of people are thinking the same as innocent lives are put at risk, especially as at least two buses have been burnt.

BDunnell

8th August 2011, 23:18

Tbh I think they need to start shooting people. Make Tianenman Square look like a love in.

Oh great. Suddenly even liberal-minded people are advocating the sort of actions that would be no better — perhaps even worse — than those being committed by the rioters.

Brown, Jon Brow

8th August 2011, 23:27

It seems the Kaiser Chiefs were correct all the time :s

donKey jote

8th August 2011, 23:30

Third world country... no better than the greeks ! :dozey:

[outtahere! :p :D :andrea: ]

BDunnell

8th August 2011, 23:33

It seems the Kaiser Chiefs were correct all the time :s

Still couldn't sing though.

MrJan

8th August 2011, 23:52

Oh great. Suddenly even liberal-minded people are advocating the sort of actions that would be no better — perhaps even worse — than those being committed by the rioters.

Forgive me for taking leave of my lily livered sensibilities but giving these c**ts a hug ain't going to solve this one. Crack some skulls, not only will it send a message but the little ****ers deserve it. Earlier I watched live coverage of a group breaking into a car, trashing it and then covering it in liquid (presumably fuel). The chopper moved away before I got to see if they set it on fire but to me you don't go around ****ing with other peoples' stuff, especially cars. If I catch someone deliberately ****ing with my car then they're going to get some retribution from a bat to the face.

Daniel

8th August 2011, 23:52

Oh great. Suddenly even liberal-minded people are advocating the sort of actions that would be no better — perhaps even worse — than those being committed by the rioters.

Seriously Ben, what value can you place on the life of someone who has no respect for the homes of ordinary people?

I think for instance that the life of a Formula 1 driver is worth spending millions on and perhaps slightly spoiling the show of F1 with a canopy, but I feel like these scum are worth far less than the houses and livelihoods they're destroying.

BDunnell

9th August 2011, 00:01

Seriously Ben, what value can you place on the life of someone who has no respect for the homes of ordinary people?

I think for instance that the life of a Formula 1 driver is worth spending millions on and perhaps slightly spoiling the show of F1 with a canopy, but I feel like these scum are worth far less than the houses and livelihoods they're destroying.

I do not believe shootings are ever justified in such a situation. More forceful policing would seem to be required, but let's not go mad.

Brown, Jon Brow

9th August 2011, 00:02

I'm going to London in a view weeks to visit my friend for his birthday. I had hoped that train tickets to London would be cheaper now, but sadly not :(

Daniel

9th August 2011, 00:02

I do not believe shootings are ever justified in such a situation. More forceful policing would seem to be required, but let's not go mad.

Not to be funny, but if they're going to get up close and personal with these people then some of the Police are going to get killed and that's simply unacceptable.

Brown, Jon Brow

9th August 2011, 00:04

Not to be funny, but if they're going to get up close and personal with these people then some of the Police are going to get killed and that's simply unacceptable.

If you want to become a policeman then you have to be prepared to get up close and personal with criminals. It is kind of part of the job.

BDunnell

9th August 2011, 00:07

If you want to become a policeman then you have to be prepared to get up close and personal with criminals. It is kind of part of the job.

Quite.

The moment the police start shooting people, they lose the remaining support and trust of another section of society — those of rather more value to society than the rioting thugs.

Daniel

9th August 2011, 00:08

If you want to become a policeman then you have to be prepared to get up close and personal with criminals. It is kind of part of the job.

Of course, but I don't think anyone should ever be forced to put themselves in such grave danger as they would be placed in by being more "robust" with these people. Do we actually need these people in our society? Would society fall apart without the sort of people who are doing this?

Daniel

9th August 2011, 00:09

Quite.

The moment the police start shooting people, they lose the remaining support and trust of another section of society — those of rather more value to society than the rioting thugs.
So what the hell are they meant to do? It's easy to suggest that they be more robust but what does that actually mean?

BDunnell

9th August 2011, 00:10

Of course, but I don't think anyone should ever be forced to put themselves in such grave danger as they would be placed in by being more "robust" with these people.

So instead of confronting and arresting them, they should shoot them and kill them? What sort of precedent does that set for policing? That, as a standpoint, is even more extreme than those who advocate 'an eye for an eye'.

BDunnell

9th August 2011, 00:10

So what the hell are they meant to do?

Not kill them.

Daniel

9th August 2011, 00:11

So instead of confronting and arresting them, they should shoot them and kill them? What sort of precedent does that set for policing? That, as a standpoint, is even more extreme than those who advocate 'an eye for an eye'.

How do they control them though?

Why should someone who shows little respect for the lives of others, their homes and their businesses be deserving of any respect at all?

Daniel

9th August 2011, 00:12

Not kill them.

Why? What does the world gain my having these idiots living on it?

BDunnell

9th August 2011, 00:22

Why? What does the world gain my having these idiots living on it?

Have you ever been outraged by reports of security forces in far-flung countries shooting at will those they don't like the look of? If so, that is exactly what you are advocating should now be the case in the UK. That is not acceptable for a civilised country. There are many people who, one way or another, make little positive contribution to society, but I would not advocate killing them.

MrJan

9th August 2011, 00:22

Seeing an 'expert' comment that yoofs feel like they have no future reminded me of a lyric by Scroobius Pip:

The Internet and public services give free education,
So it really ain't a case of rich or poor,
It's a case of self-motivation and nothing more,
Like Billy says, whether you have or you have not wealth,
The system might fail you, but don't fail yourself

More lyrics: Dan Le Sac Vs Scroobius Pip Lyrics (http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/d/dan_le_sac_vs_scroobius_pip/#share)

Daniel

9th August 2011, 00:23

Have you ever been outraged by reports of security forces in far-flung countries shooting at will those they don't like the look of? If so, that is exactly what you are advocating should now be the case in the UK. That is not acceptable for a civilised country. There are many people who, one way or another, make little positive contribution to society, but I would not advocate killing them.

Oh come on, don't trivialise the actions of those people. They're fighting for their ****ing human rights and trying to get rid of oppressive regimes :angry:

BDunnell

9th August 2011, 00:25

Oh come on, don't trivialise the actions of those people.

Says the man who used the discussion on this topic to make a cheap remark in relation to my views on safety in Formula 1. Pretty pathetic, if you ask me.

Daniel

9th August 2011, 00:26

Says the man who used the discussion on this topic to make a cheap remark in relation to my views on safety in Formula 1. Pretty pathetic, if you ask me.

I didn't? I think you've seen something which was never there. I simply stated he value that I put on a life in F1 for instance, I didn't say that you were some kind of blood thirsty crash kings watching motorsport fan......

BDunnell

9th August 2011, 00:34

I didn't? I think you've seen something which was never there. I simply stated he value that I put on a life in F1 for instance, I didn't say that you were some kind of blood thirsty crash kings watching motorsport fan......

Daniel, it was a cheap shot not becoming of you.

Daniel

9th August 2011, 00:36

Read my post again please. You've misunderstood it completely. I was showing the value that I myself put on a life, I was not saying anything about you or anyone else.

Malbec

9th August 2011, 01:18

Tbh I think they need to start shooting people. Make Tianenman Square look like a love in.

I spoke to a friend of mine who lives near Clapham Junction who was standing there watching the looting.

There are quite a few bystanders just watching, treating the event like a day out as well as the looters.

Apparently the police arrived and caught one looter still in a shop. According to my friend they beat the living daylights out of him while they were cheered on by the crowd. When they'd finished with him they took photos of their handiwork before bundling him into the back of the van and driving off.

Whilst the looting is disgusting the behaviour of the police can hardly be described as angelic. Give them guns and allow them to shoot on sight? Sorry but this isn't Syria. What next? Public hanging?

BDunnell

9th August 2011, 01:20

Apparently the police arrived and caught one looter still in a shop. According to my friend they beat the living daylights out of him while they were cheered on by the crowd. When they'd finished with him they took photos of their handiwork before bundling him into the back of the van and driving off.

I hope your friend is going to make a complaint.

Daniel

9th August 2011, 01:21

I spoke to a friend of mine who lives near Clapham Junction who was standing there watching the looting.

There are quite a few bystanders just watching, treating the event like a day out as well as the looters.

Apparently the police arrived and caught one looter still in a shop. According to my friend they beat the living daylights out of him while they were cheered on by the crowd. When they'd finished with him they took photos of their handiwork before bundling him into the back of the van and driving off.

Whilst the looting is disgusting the behaviour of the police can hardly be described as angelic. Give them guns and allow them to shoot on sight? Sorry but this isn't Syria. What next? Public hanging?

Fantastic. Hope more stories like this come out.

BDunnell

9th August 2011, 01:22

Fantastic. Hope more stories like this come out.

Now you really are getting ridiculous. Are you doing so in order to get a reaction, by any chance?

Daniel

9th August 2011, 01:23

Now you really are getting ridiculous. Are you doing so in order to get a reaction, by any chance?

No. I genuinely place little or no value on the lives of these people or any suffering they may endure due to their actions.

Malbec

9th August 2011, 01:24

Fantastic. Hope more stories like this come out.

Really? You do?

Daniel

9th August 2011, 01:25

Really? You do?

Yes, I did say that I hope more stories like this come out didn't I?

Malbec

9th August 2011, 01:25

No. I genuinely place little or no value on the lives of these people or any suffering they may endure due to their actions.

Kill 'em all I say, especially the darkies. They's the ones to blame sir!

Daniel

9th August 2011, 01:26

Kill 'em all I say, especially the darkies. They's the ones to blame sir!

I'm sorry but that's just off. I don't matter whether people are brown, black, yellow or white. When you get involved with this sort of thing you have no place in civilised society.

BDunnell

9th August 2011, 01:28

Yes, I did say that I hope more stories like this come out didn't I?

Yes, you did, and with that deeply unpleasant little bout of synthetic anger went out of the window any respect I may have had for your opinions. Just have a think about what you, as an intelligent human being, are saying here. I think it's pretty shameful.

Malbec

9th August 2011, 01:29

I'm sorry but that's just off. I don't matter whether people are brown, black, yellow or white. When you get involved with this sort of thing you have no place in civilised society.

Well you're being more than a little naive thinking the police are to be trusted to dispense justice your style don't you think?

As I said earlier Britain isn't some dictatorship, there is a clear mechanism for restoring order and dispensing justice that rises above mob rule regardless of whether its young kids looting or the Daily Hate crowd like you demanding blood.

Daniel

9th August 2011, 01:32

So what should be done and why should these people have rights when they choose to act in such a way?

Daniel

9th August 2011, 01:33

Malbec, how would you sort this out?

BDunnell

9th August 2011, 01:35

Malbec, how would you sort this out?

I don't think he/she should bother answering, given that you will clearly be dissatisfied with any answer that isn't 'Kill them all'.

Daniel

9th August 2011, 01:36

Well tell me what you think would work?

Malbec

9th August 2011, 01:38

So what should be done and why should these people have rights when they choose to act in such a way?

The thing about respecting human rights Daniel is that people still keep them even when they do things you abhore. If you believe otherwise then keep quiet about places like Guantanamo bay and the like.

The police are having their fun beating the living daylights out of any rioters they catch who'll then be processed through the courts. Given that most of the action is filmed on CCTV too the worst offenders who wriggle free will be caught and charged at some point.

BDunnell

9th August 2011, 01:40

Well tell me what you think would work?

I was clearly right in my assumption that no answer other than meting out state-sponsored killing will satisfy your current desire for immediate blood.

Daniel

9th August 2011, 01:40

Oh come on, do you REALLY think cctv will catch anything more than just a few people.....

BDunnell

9th August 2011, 01:42

Oh come on, do you REALLY think cctv will catch anything more than just a few people.....

Who mentioned CCTV?

Your comments here are rapidly becoming unworthy of any response.

Malbec

9th August 2011, 01:45

Who mentioned CCTV?

To be fair to the poor man I did as a means of catching those who aren't caught on the day. I prefer to be charitable and I'll assume that this is the one day of the year Daniel lets his hair down, downs eight pints and has a speedball....

Daniel

9th August 2011, 01:46

Malbec?

Malbec

9th August 2011, 01:59

Oh come on, do you REALLY think cctv will catch anything more than just a few people.....

No you're right, we should catch a few of them and torture them till their pips squeak right? Then they'll name names I bet.

Bob Riebe

9th August 2011, 04:04

Kill 'em all I say, especially the darkies. They's the ones to blame sir!If you are trying to prove your posts here are worthless, you have succeeded.----------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At the same time it is again, not unexpected, but sad-- how the sympathy is flowing for the criminals whilst that common liberal rhetorical drivel is doing the equivalent of totally ignoring what the criminals actions are doing to innocent people.

Some one said they should be more forceful on how they react to the criminals without being violent, or something very similar, but when another poster asked the one who said that, to explain or define what should be done, there was no answer.
That makes the one making the suggestion on how the criminals should be handled, minuse the ones opinion the police are being too brutal, look either hypocritical or simply like another internet troll.

Roamy

9th August 2011, 06:27

WTF did someone get a bad beef and kidney pie !!

Rudy Tamasz

9th August 2011, 08:32

I don't think Rudy was suggesting all young people but it is becoming pretty commonplace that any sort of legitimate protest is hijacked by the rioters.

That's pretty much what I meant, thank you. I am only afraid that rioters are making a steadily growing share of all protesters and that's a dangerous trend. Looks like the whole society is growing more marginal and less responsible for its actions.

Robinho

9th August 2011, 09:29

as I've just posted on facebook:

What is wrong with people? This has nothing to do with the Police shooting an armed man, nothing to do with politics, nothing to do with the economy or cutbacks. They have no cause they are fighting, no demands. They are not fighting for democracy or rights. Nothing to do with anti capitalism or anti government, its all about a small minority of morons with a complete lack of respect for anything or anyone who want to take something that isn't theirs, be it looted trainers, mobile phones, flat screens or cash from a ripped out cashpoint.

Its not the Police's fault, they can't cope with this sort of random acts of violence.

Its about time the millions of hardworking, honest and respectful people took their streets back from these idiots hiding behind masks, scarves and hoodies. Everyone will know who these people are from the videos, the CCTV, the people coming home with a DVD player stuffed up their jumper or a bootload of looted stuff from the high street, so shop them all. Its all very well a few hundred police trying to stop a few hundred rioters, but they'd think again in the face of a few thousand local residents, shop keepers and workers standing out on the streets protecting their property, instead of one or two brave ones who get overrun.

ArrowsFA1

9th August 2011, 09:35

If you're a Daily Mail reader they you're being told (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023924/London-riots-From-Hackney-Brixton-Twitter-Blackberry-help-looters-ordinate-raids.html) that these riots were "fuelled by social media" and "that children involved in the rioting and stealing were inspired by violent video game Grand Theft Auto".

The Mail also reports (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023902/London-riots-Left-wing-cynics-blame-Tory-cuts-mayhem.html) that "Left-wing politicians have cynically sought to make political capital out of the riots, blaming government cuts for the orgy of violence." Watching Ken Livingstone being interviewed last night I'd agree with that.

But, as always in these situations, simplistic knee-jerk reactions do nothing other than make good headlines. While absolutely condemning the opportunistic criminality we've seen, as Theresa May rightly did, and taking action against those responsible, that should not obscure a close look at the causes.

Daniel

9th August 2011, 09:36

Daniel

9th August 2011, 10:02

ArrowsFA1

9th August 2011, 10:02

https://twitter.com/#!/Riotcleanup

Malbec

9th August 2011, 10:06

Its about time the millions of hardworking, honest and respectful people took their streets back from these idiots hiding behind masks, scarves and hoodies. Everyone will know who these people are from the videos, the CCTV, the people coming home with a DVD player stuffed up their jumper or a bootload of looted stuff from the high street, so shop them all. Its all very well a few hundred police trying to stop a few hundred rioters, but they'd think again in the face of a few thousand local residents, shop keepers and workers standing out on the streets protecting their property, instead of one or two brave ones who get overrun.

When the police complain that riot tourists are slowing them down they really aren't kidding.

The rioters and looters are outnumbered, not by the police but by people who go to watch but are powerless to do anything.

As I posted earlier a friend of mine was at Clapham Junction going home from work when the looting there started. One person tried to intervene and was set upon by the looters, the rest were too scared to help but not too scared to go home.

The kind of guys who are looting are the kind of kids who normally lurk on estates in gangs and only hit the headlines when they stab each other to death when they suddenly become vibrant youths with a bright future. There's a reason people don't intervene, these kids have no problems using their knives and some of them are armed with guns too.

There are areas where people have started groups to defend some parts of town, the looting in Clapham was limited to one street because of that. The surrounding streets with small businesses were blocked off by residents and shopowners leaving the big chains to be looted.

Daniel

9th August 2011, 10:07

https://twitter.com/#!/Riotcleanup

If I lived in London I would SO be up for that. Lets hope someone arranges some sort of anti-riot protest tonight. If there are large numbers of people then there'll be sod all these scum can do.

Malbec

9th August 2011, 10:20

The Mail also reports (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023902/London-riots-Left-wing-cynics-blame-Tory-cuts-mayhem.html) that "Left-wing politicians have cynically sought to make political capital out of the riots, blaming government cuts for the orgy of violence." Watching Ken Livingstone being interviewed last night I'd agree with that.

But, as always in these situations, simplistic knee-jerk reactions do nothing other than make good headlines. While absolutely condemning the opportunistic criminality we've seen, as Theresa May rightly did, and taking action against those responsible, that should not obscure a close look at the causes.

Ken was being an idiot last night, had it been another politician rather than a social worker telling him he was wrong he would have gone on even longer about it too.

He has a point though. The riots we've had over the past year have all had the spending cuts as a root cause and we've had people from all parts of society going on those marches. We can expect more of the same in the future and as the past days have shown it won't necessarily be limited to small areas of Central London.

Some of my friends in the City talk about apocalyptic times with what is happening in the financial markets being utterly crazy and now the riots on top of that. I have to admit that these few days may be remembered in the future as being a watershed.

Daniel

9th August 2011, 10:24

Ken was being an idiot last night, had it been another politician rather than a social worker telling him he was wrong he would have gone on even longer about it too.

He has a point though. The riots we've had over the past year have all had the spending cuts as a root cause and we've had people from all parts of society going on those marches. We can expect more of the same in the future and as the past days have shown it won't necessarily be limited to small areas of Central London.

Some of my friends in the City talk about apocalyptic times with what is happening in the financial markets being utterly crazy and now the riots on top of that. I have to admit that these few days may be remembered in the future as being a watershed.

But the initial protests are completely unrelated to the rioting tbh. The protests could be about the sun rising every morning and these people would use it as an excuse. I think the media is merely making an excuse for these actions and Ken was merely agreeing.

Malbec

9th August 2011, 11:05

But the initial protests are completely unrelated to the rioting tbh. The protests could be about the sun rising every morning and these people would use it as an excuse. I think the media is merely making an excuse for these actions and Ken was merely agreeing.

Yes that would be the simplistic view.

Have you thought about why we haven't had rioting from this community for the past 25 years? How there have been equally if not more controversial killings of black guys by police with nothing more than strong words of condemnation and protest from their community?

Why now? After all the police and the community have grown closer since 1985, institutional racism has been reduced and with the formation of a strong affluent black middle class one would have thought that all the triggers would have gone. What do you think triggered the rioting?

Daniel

9th August 2011, 11:12

Yes that would be the simplistic view.

Have you thought about why we haven't had rioting from this community for the past 25 years? How there have been equally if not more controversial killings of black guys by police with nothing more than strong words of condemnation and protest from their community?

Why now? After all the police and the community have grown closer since 1985, institutional racism has been reduced and with the formation of a strong affluent black middle class one would have thought that all the triggers would have gone. What do you think triggered the rioting?

I take your point and agree that the only thing that's changed in London since 1985 is the govt's cuts.

Malbec

9th August 2011, 11:20

I take your point and agree that the only thing that's changed in London since 1985 is the govt's cuts.

What is your problem Daniel?

On this thread you've completely gone off on one, and you can't handle anything that suggests that the problem is complex and that government cuts are a factor albeit one of several?

But no you're right the problem is simple, these guys are just up for some pillaging and thats all there is to it right? Better shoot them all and get the problem over with just as you recommended. Life is simple after all.

Daniel

9th August 2011, 11:31

The initial rioting was possibly caused by a few who saw it as an opportunity to have a go at the police but that opened up the door for looting. What we have seen in the last few days has nothing to do with political or social issues or mistreatment by the police, and more to do with young men and teenagers seeing the looting on TV and fancying some free stuff. Seeing them coming out of a shop in Birmingham not even covering their faces but stepping out with watches and Jewelry just makes me sick. Most of them are not doing it because they feel bad that a guy was shot dead, they couldn't give a toss. This is just violence for the sake of violence as far as I am concerned and its a bill we are all going to have to pick up. :(
See Henners, who cars if everything goes up in price because of the cost of this, these young men have a voice and deserve to be heard apparently. :dozey:

Malbec

9th August 2011, 11:39

The initial rioting was possibly caused by a few who saw it as an opportunity to have a go at the police but that opened up the door for looting. What we have seen in the last few days has nothing to do with political or social issues or mistreatment by the police, and more to do with young men and teenagers seeing the looting on TV and fancying some free stuff. Seeing them coming out of a shop in Birmingham not even covering their faces but stepping out with watches and Jewelry just makes me sick. Most of them are not doing it because they feel bad that a guy was shot dead, they couldn't give a toss. This is just violence for the sake of violence as far as I am concerned and its a bill we are all going to have to pick up. :(

On the face of it it is pure violence for the sake of it, but to suggest that there are no underlying causes misses the point. You wouldn't behave that way nor would I. If you don't address why some people feel that its fine to behave that way nothing will be learnt and this will happen again in the future.

There is a big difference between condemning the violence which despite Daniel's suggestions is what we are all doing on this thread and seeing what caused it.

Daniel

9th August 2011, 11:45

On the face of it it is pure violence for the sake of it, but to suggest that there are no underlying causes misses the point. You wouldn't behave that way nor would I. If you don't address why some people feel that its fine to behave that way nothing will be learnt and this will happen again in the future.

There is a big difference between condemning the violence which despite Daniel's suggestions is what we are all doing on this thread and seeing what caused it.

I think you're missing the fact that humans are essentially violent people and we enjoy violence, this has been proven in many many studies. It's why we like violent computer games. Put the three of us in Rwanda during the genocide and you probably wouldn't have had any issues with hacking myself an henners to death with a machete.

These people have merely been given the opportunity to do something pleasureable and have grabbed it with both hands, the fact that they're not a part of regular society merely means that the negative effects upon them are lessened.

ArrowsFA1

9th August 2011, 12:11

These people have merely been given the opportunity...
But what gave them this particular opportunity, and have there been similar opportunities before which did not result in what we are seeing now? If so, why didn't this kind of thing happen then?

Of course there are opportunists, just as there are organisations, who are looking to exploit protests/riots for their own ends but isn't there usually an underlying discontent/incident which acts as a catalyst for them?

Daniel

9th August 2011, 12:17

But what gave them this particular opportunity, and have there been similar opportunities before which did not result in what we are seeing now? If so, why didn't this kind of thing happen then?

Of course there are opportunists, just as there are organisations, who are looking to exploit protests/riots for their own ends but isn't there usually an underlying discontent/incident which acts as a catalyst for them?

Well you see what happened was this guy got shot and some people weren't happy and were having a protest......

Malbec

9th August 2011, 12:24

I think you're missing the fact that humans are essentially violent people and we enjoy violence, this has been proven in many many studies. It's why we like violent computer games. Put the three of us in Rwanda during the genocide and you probably wouldn't have had any issues with hacking myself an henners to death with a machete.

Is this really your level of understanding of psychology?

Daniel

9th August 2011, 12:26

Is this really your level of understanding of psychology?

Have you ever seen any research into humans and the fact that we enjoy violence?

Malbec

9th August 2011, 12:37

Have you ever seen any research into humans and the fact that we enjoy violence?

I've probably had more formal psychology training than you have Daniel. As an undergraduate I did research into group psychology and how that can result in systematic violence. The fact that you can say a simple sentence like 'the fact that we enjoy violence' indicates that you are rather lacking in your understanding and that further discussion on this matter is going to be an exercise in futility.

But I do understand that that saves you from acknowledging that there may be underlying causes for this violence.

Daniel

9th August 2011, 12:49

I've probably had more formal psychology training than you have Daniel. As an undergraduate I did research into group psychology and how that can result in systematic violence. The fact that you can say a simple sentence like 'the fact that we enjoy violence' indicates that you are rather lacking in your understanding and that further discussion on this matter is going to be an exercise in futility.

But I do understand that that saves you from acknowledging that there may be underlying causes for this violence.

So tell me. Do humans enjoy violence?

You're doing what all supposed intellectuals do and are trying to find some complicated reason why this is happening.

ArrowsFA1

9th August 2011, 12:52

Just to be clear, underlying causes, whatever they may be, do not excuse the destruction of property, theft & other criminality that we have seen.

Malbec

9th August 2011, 12:59

So tell me. Do humans enjoy violence?

You're doing what all supposed intellectuals do and are trying to find some complicated reason why this is happening.

So psychology isn't complicated Daniel? You think these riots have a simple basis too?

You think 'Do humans enjoy violence' can be answered with a yes or no? Maybe you should stick to 'F1 is about cars going around in circles' level.

The relationship between humans and violence is highly complex and even PhD dissertations have difficulty addressing more than a small part of it.

Daniel

9th August 2011, 13:14

So psychology isn't complicated Daniel? You think these riots have a simple basis too?

You think 'Do humans enjoy violence' can be answered with a yes or no? Maybe you should stick to 'F1 is about cars going around in circles' level.

The relationship between humans and violence is highly complex and even PhD dissertations have difficulty addressing more than a small part of it.

Ok lets say for a moment that you're right and there's some underlying cause other than the f***wittery of humankind then why didn't people in Tunisia, Egypt and so on go around burning their own cities down? If it's simply anger that causes people to riot then surely being opressed and having the army killing people who were peacefully protesting is more of a reason to be angry and therefore riot and go around burning everything? I realise there was small scale looting during the arab spring but nothing like this at all.

I'm sorry but your argument doesn't hold water.

Malbec

9th August 2011, 13:17

Just to be clear, underlying causes, whatever they may be, do not excuse the destruction of property, theft & other criminality that we have seen.

Exactly

Malbec

9th August 2011, 13:23

Ok lets say for a moment that you're right and there's some underlying cause other than the f***wittery of humankind then why didn't people in Tunisia, Egypt and so on go around burning their own cities down? If it's simply anger that causes people to riot then surely being opressed and having the army killing people who were peacefully protesting is more of a reason to be angry and therefore riot and go around burning everything? I realise there was small scale looting during the arab spring but nothing like this at all.

I'm sorry but your argument doesn't hold water.

Your argument only holds water because you ignore everything contrary to it. Why didn't rioting happen after Stephen Lawrence was stabbed to death and the police didn't follow up properly? What about all the other demonstrations that have happened since 1985 against police violence or poverty? What about against police violence at football matches? What is it so specifically about this one guy who got killed before the weekend and the specific protest against it as opposed to all the others before it?

The Arab Spring uprisings you refer to were directly political asking for a specific regime change. A more pertinent comparison would be the LA riots, Broadwater farm/Brixton in the '80s or the French riots that have happened on and off for the past two decades. All had strong underlying causes that came to a head over one small spark. All resulted in more damage being done by the rioters to their own parts of town than anywhere else with a healthy dose of looting.

Daniel

9th August 2011, 13:35

Your argument only holds water because you ignore everything contrary to it. Why didn't rioting happen after Stephen Lawrence was stabbed to death and the police didn't follow up properly? What about all the other demonstrations that have happened since 1985 against police violence or poverty? What about against police violence at football matches? What is it so specifically about this one guy who got killed before the weekend and the specific protest against it as opposed to all the others before it?

The Arab Spring uprisings you refer to were directly political asking for a specific regime change. A more pertinent comparison would be the LA riots, Broadwater farm/Brixton in the '80s or the French riots that have happened on and off for the past two decades. All had strong underlying causes that came to a head over one small spark. All resulted in more damage being done by the rioters to their own parts of town than anywhere else with a healthy dose of rioting.

But you're forgetting that other things have changed since then. Nowadays everyone has a mobile, people use facebook and twitter so they're infinitely more connected. Heck if Graham Norton wanted to, I bet he could have 10,000 people on the streets of London pelting people to death with original recipe chicken from KFC in a couple of hourse if he so wished. If this were back in the late 90's how would people have discussed with each other where to gather? It would have been a small gathering and would have been easily contained. Nowadays the ability of people to congregate in specific areas in a short space of time is increased and that's why this is so much bigger than anything else which has happened recently.

ArrowsFA1

9th August 2011, 14:29

But you're forgetting that other things have changed since then. Nowadays everyone has a mobile, people use facebook and twitter so they're infinitely more connected...If this were back in the late 90's how would people have discussed with each other where to gather? It would have been a small gathering and would have been easily contained.
Perhaps, but what does that lead us to?

There were calls today to shut down the BlackBerry Messenger service which is thought to have played a key role in helping mobilise looters involved in the riots across London.
London riots: From Hackney to Brixton Twitter and Blackberry help looters co-ordinate raids | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023924/London-riots-From-Hackney-Brixton-Twitter-Blackberry-help-looters-ordinate-raids.html)

Should networks be compelled to shut down their services in such circumstances, and if so what are the implications of such measures?

Daniel

9th August 2011, 14:33

Perhaps, but what does that lead us to?

London riots: From Hackney to Brixton Twitter and Blackberry help looters co-ordinate raids | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023924/London-riots-From-Hackney-Brixton-Twitter-Blackberry-help-looters-ordinate-raids.html)

Should networks be compelled to shut down their services in such circumstances, and if so what are the implications of such measures?

I don't see a problem really? If people were using a motorway to get to a riot the police would shut that down and we wouldn't have a problem?

ArrowsFA1

9th August 2011, 14:59

I don't see a problem really? If people were using a motorway to get to a riot the police would shut that down and we wouldn't have a problem?
But there would be a problem for those legally going about their business on that motorway (the overwhelming majority) and consider the implications of them (you) going nowhere and getting nothing done.

52Paddy

9th August 2011, 15:00

What a ridiculous situation. Police should show no leniency in dealing with these thugs who have destroyed the livlihood of many innocent people. They are a disgrace to their neighbourhood and society, the very thing that they are 'supposed' to be fighting for. If their fight is with the police, why go burning building and cars. Idiots.

markabilly

9th August 2011, 15:18

A load of riots with absolutely no motive or cause. Utter filth and scum on our streets I'm afraid. :down:

According to Twitter last night there were some Turkish men defending their part of London. It needs to be done on a bigger scale and it needs to be organised. I wouldn't be surprised if that happens tonight, people are pissed.

Kill 'em all I say, especially the darkies. They's the ones to blame sir!

No you're right, we should catch a few of them and torture them till their pips squeak right? Then they'll name names I bet.
:eek: :eek:

Sort of reminds me about the gun control debate and what I said about you Englanders thinking you be so safe and that it was a false sense of security............................but no, you should not defend yourselves....until they come knocking on your door, then it changes one's point of view :s mokin:

unless you are a crybaby sheep.....
who among you wants to be a sheep???

markabilly

9th August 2011, 15:20

[

What a ridiculous situation. Police should show no leniency in dealing with these thugs who have destroyed the livlihood of many innocent people. They are a disgrace to their neighbourhood and society, the very thing that they are 'supposed' to be fighting for. If their fight is with the police, why go burning building and cars. Idiots.

once again......... :dozey:

Malbec

9th August 2011, 15:24

But you're forgetting that other things have changed since then. Nowadays everyone has a mobile, people use facebook and twitter so they're infinitely more connected. Heck if Graham Norton wanted to, I bet he could have 10,000 people on the streets of London pelting people to death with original recipe chicken from KFC in a couple of hourse if he so wished. If this were back in the late 90's how would people have discussed with each other where to gather? It would have been a small gathering and would have been easily contained. Nowadays the ability of people to congregate in specific areas in a short space of time is increased and that's why this is so much bigger than anything else which has happened recently.

You're changing the subject. What you're talking about are the mechanisms and logistics by which the rioters congregated, not the cause, motivation or behaviour of the rioters.

Daniel

9th August 2011, 15:28

You're changing the subject. What you're talking about are the mechanisms and logistics by which the rioters congregated, not the cause, motivation or behaviour of the rioters.

You were the one who brought up the past. In the past perhaps people did try to congregate after Stephen Lawrences murder but technology made it harder?

Malbec

9th August 2011, 15:32

You were the one who brought up the past. In the past perhaps people did try to congregate after Stephen Lawrences murder but technology made it harder?

Then they clearly weren't motivated enough since people certainly managed to get together at Broadwater Farm in 1985 or Brixton didn't they.

Retro Formula 1

9th August 2011, 15:39

It is of course a complex issue with multiple causes and influences.

Daniel is quite correct that modern media enabled real-time mobilisation of the rioters. However, this is not the cause of the riots but a consequence of modern mobility and communication that we all demand. On this occasion, modern media has lead to a social networking riot and the Police need to adapt to how new technology can change the face of crime.

What is the cause of this behaviour is a different question and my view will no doubt lead to the usual accusations of Daily Mail reader and racist but I will say it regardless.

The underlying cause is down to unchecked immigration, political correctness and human rights.

Unchecked immigration has lead to the marginalisation of large sections of the community. These areas tend to be poorer areas with high unemployment and crime thus the standard of living is lower than more affluent areas and resentment breeds. However you cannot give high paid jobs to people that haven't a adequate standard of education, language and training.

Political correctness (Enter Ben stage left) has then compounded the problem because what should be a sensible basic level of respect has been hijacked by groups who seem intent on blaming anyone apart from themselves and accepting responsibility and leads nicely into the 3rd cause; Human Rights. Everyone these days knows what their rights are but not what their responsibility is. Children demand 'respect' from adults before they will do what they are expected to and adults PANDER to them!! No wonder youths in these areas are disaffected, feral and out of control. They don't have a clue what their boundaries are, what is expected of them and how to behave.

ShiftingGears

9th August 2011, 16:25

Retro Formula 1

9th August 2011, 16:41

You need to remember that the police live in these areas as well and are as disgusted and furious as we all are about all this. If i caught a rioter, I would give them a bloody good hiding as well. Perhaps if their parents had instilled a sense of right and wrong then they would have more respect for other peoples property- innit!

On the other hand, the majority of young people have had either no part of this or have actively been helping with the clear up. Lets remember that these acts are the acts of criminals and not tar them all with the same brush.

Mark

9th August 2011, 17:01

Suggesting Blackberry should be shut down is stupid. This isn't Syria.

Daniel

9th August 2011, 17:31

Suggesting Blackberry should be shut down is stupid. This isn't Syria.

Why?

Dave B

9th August 2011, 17:33

BBM messages can be given to police with a court order. Shutting the service down would drive rioters to use more secretive methods as well as disrupting all those who use it for good / neutral purposes.

Daniel

9th August 2011, 17:40

Mark

9th August 2011, 17:44

This morning I threw my baby out with the bath water.

Malbec

9th August 2011, 17:49

The underlying cause is down to unchecked immigration, political correctness and human rights.

Unchecked immigration has lead to the marginalisation of large sections of the community. These areas tend to be poorer areas with high unemployment and crime thus the standard of living is lower than more affluent areas and resentment breeds. However you cannot give high paid jobs to people that haven't a adequate standard of education, language and training.

I was born and brought up in North London. This is where I live hence why I feel strongly about these riots and I don't recognise this picture. When I was a kid we had large Jewish, Turkish and Greek communities. Over the years we've had Persians, Kurds, Somalis and East Europeans flow in. None of these communities are strongly represented in the riots although I'm sure a few are taking part. If anything areas where there are large proportions of immigrants such as Stoke Newington or Edmonton have been relatively free of violence compared to Tottenham and Hackney.

The areas that are rioting have been poor for years and have missed out on the steady gentrification that has improved most London suburbs. They've been marginalised for decades and while they've seen some improvement over the past couple of decades before the crash, they're the poorest educated and least likely to have jobs.

Everyone these days knows what their rights are but not what their responsibility is. Children demand 'respect' from adults before they will do what they are expected to and adults PANDER to them!! No wonder youths in these areas are disaffected, feral and out of control. They don't have a clue what their boundaries are, what is expected of them and how to behave.

I don't think this could have been said any better.

Daniel

9th August 2011, 19:08

This morning I threw my baby out with the bath water.

BBM is hardly a baby. If it didn't work for a week life would go on.

Mark

9th August 2011, 19:10

But where do you stop? Shut down BBM, SMS, GSM? Shut down all communications and cause far more damage than the riots ever would.

Daniel

9th August 2011, 19:10

I agree something has failed in this instance to make these people think looting from small businesses and chain shops, burning peoples cars and homes, breaking into restaurants and attempting to mug the people eating, is perfectly acceptable behaviour. There was a teenage girl on the BBC news saying to a politician that young people don't get given enough respect so until they do, things like this will happen. Not quite sure I agree that they deserve respect after something like this. I don't agree violent computer games/films has inspired the violence either as we are all capable of being able to distinguish right from wrong IMO. The violence doesn't even seem to have anger behind it like it did originally on Saturday and seems to be fuelled by greed and excitement. Theres no doubt the rioters are enjoying what they are doing and making an awful lot of money in the process.

I saw some moronic idiot suggest we need to legalize guns in this country to defend ourselves against such violence yet completely missed the point concerning how this whole thing kicked off in the first place lol. Yeah I'm sure home/business owners would feel alot safer knowing they had a gun to defend themselves against 40 rioters who were breaking into their property and also had guns lol. Anyway I hope we don't have a 4th night of violence and I hope to god it doesn't spread to Cardiff. It needs to stop and the police need to start using tougher tactics IMO. If it takes the army to come in and restore order, then so be it. :mark:
Tbh I think this girl is right, show them the respect we'd give to an armed force in our country (they are armed after all) and start killing them if they don't surrender. If the Icelandic invaded and started pillaging and so on, we'd shoot them. Just shoot them ffs. These people's lives are a waste of time, money and resources.

Whilst Markabilly is right that this probably wouldn't happen if we all had guns, more people would die overall anyway

Daniel

9th August 2011, 19:11

But where do you stop? Shut down BBM, SMS, GSM? Shut down all communications and cause far more damage than the riots ever would.

BBM is more or less anonymous though and it's FREE. SMS's are far more traceable and you can't just message a group of 100 people for free.

Mark

9th August 2011, 19:11

Btw. My Baby is well 'ard she'd take all the rioters on! :D

Daniel

9th August 2011, 19:47

Just read his post but my opinion was based on something I heard on Real Radio earlier today and wasn't having a dig if you beleive that lol. To be honest guns wouldn't stop all this just like they didn't stop the LA riots and the trouble in Egypt and Libya, it just creates more deaths IMO.

I was agreeing with you ;)

Langdale Forest

9th August 2011, 20:05

Riots have re-started in Birmingham and for the first time, in Machester....

Where might the target next?

Daniel

9th August 2011, 20:50

No Sh*t.. lol.

Sorry I kinda misread your post :p I thought you were saying that you weren't having a dig at me :)

slinkster

9th August 2011, 21:13

Watching the latest Riot on the news right now. Hard viewing... I work for the police and am thinking of my colleagues tonight, as I was last night. They've already had their morale knocked out of them, been attacked by media and government cuts. They can barely do right for doing wrong... and I feel sorry for them being relied on sorting this out with low staffing levels, when they've been warning the government for months this scale of anger was likely. I just hope they're okay.

I'm standing by for the government speeches stating they won't be taking any responsibilty or accountability for this.

steveaki13

9th August 2011, 22:47

Its in Manchester so far tonight.

The police are in a no win situation. If they sit off and let this scum rule the streets, the mob rules and the rest of the population question why the police are not doing their job, but if they wade in heavy handed and using rubber bullets and alike, then the first time a 14 years old gets injured or killed then a backlash will follow.
On the radio today they were talking to police and they know they are in this situation and almost seem to fear this happening.

I think the time has come we have to wipe this out and regain the streets. In very unique circumstances like we are seeing here, they should have the ability to overide normal protocal and use extreme measures to protect the country.

markabilly

10th August 2011, 04:50

I agree something has failed in this instance to make these people think looting from small businesses and chain shops, burning peoples cars and homes, breaking into restaurants and attempting to mug the people eating, is perfectly acceptable behaviour. There was a teenage girl on the BBC news saying to a politician that young people don't get given enough respect so until they do, things like this will happen. Not quite sure I agree that they deserve respect after something like this. I don't agree violent computer games/films has inspired the violence either as we are all capable of being able to distinguish right from wrong IMO. The violence doesn't even seem to have anger behind it like it did originally on Saturday and seems to be fuelled by greed and excitement. Theres no doubt the rioters are enjoying what they are doing and making an awful lot of money in the process.

I saw some moronic idiot suggest we need to legalize guns in this country to defend ourselves against such violence yet completely missed the point concerning how this whole thing kicked off in the first place lol. Yeah I'm sure home/business owners would feel alot safer knowing they had a gun to defend themselves against 40 rioters who were breaking into their property and also had guns lol. Anyway I hope we don't have a 4th night of violence and I hope to god it doesn't spread to Cardiff. It needs to stop and the police need to start using tougher tactics IMO. If it takes the army to come in and restore order, then so be it. :mark:

the moron was me, and unlike you, I do not pee my panties when things get tough. And i do not have to depend on others to risk their lives (like your London police are doing), while you sit at home safe and secure.

Let the forty or more come bashing on my door, and I pronmise them all a warm welcome straight to hell.

Like I said sometime back, sooner or later those unwilling to stand for themselves, will be falling for anything, crawling in the dirt, begging for mercy while they and their families are stomped on.

But i have noted that a few of you appear to be closet red necks.....for sure. :D

Even ole daniel seems to be trying to grow some spine.....try it henners, you might actually like having a pair...........or maybe not. :rolleyes:

Daniel

10th August 2011, 09:45

Wow I tell you what, I stand in awe. You're such a big strong hero... I can only dream of being a big brave man like you Billy boy. I've gone all tingly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCOPuGBg_W0

:D

Amazon.co.uk Movers and Shakers: The biggest gainers in Sports & Leisure sales rank over the past 24 hours (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/movers-and-shakers/sports/ref=zg_bs_tab)

Top sellers on Amazon in sports and leisure...... strange for a country that doesn't play baseball that baseball bats should be so popular.

Daniel

10th August 2011, 09:47

Even ole daniel seems to be trying to grow some spine.....try it henners, you might actually like having a pair...........or maybe not. :rolleyes:

No it's simple really.

IF value of goods and property > value of lives of scum
THEN kill scum

Simple really. They should tell people to GTFO the streets and state that anyone caught with a hood or mask will be asked to surrender and if not, will be shot.

Retro Formula 1

10th August 2011, 10:57

Markabilly and Daniel getting passionate about shooting unarmed people with big powerful guns. Get aroom you hero's :rolleyes:

Looks like a quieter night last night although Manchester had the idiots. This may be because of the sheer number of Police on the streets but also the outrage in these communities. The number of police is not sustainable but community will has a lot more influence and is part of the long-term solution; possibly the key to the problem.

Daniel

10th August 2011, 11:05

Markabilly and Daniel getting passionate about shooting unarmed people with big powerful guns. Get aroom you hero's :rolleyes:

Are they unarmed? :confused: Anyway, what do these people bring to the world?

donKey jote

10th August 2011, 11:16

what do these people bring to the world?

That's what the norwegian guy thought too :dozey:

Daniel

10th August 2011, 11:33

That's what the norwegian guy thought too :dozey:

Oh come on, that is nothing like this. these people are criminals, those people were innocent.

Mark

10th August 2011, 11:45

Daniel

10th August 2011, 11:52

Rudy Tamasz

10th August 2011, 11:59

It just amazes me the amount of people who given the opportunity will go on the rampage.

It's not unique to the UK of course, look what happened in New Orleans very quickly once authority was removed.

Some people are brought up (or born, indeed) with the idea that the society, and the government and everybody else owes them something while they don't owe anything to anybody. They expect welfare and education to be brought to them and yet need to be convinced to accept it. They have no respect for law or property. There is a whole industry including pesky NGO activists, paper columnists and other do-gooders who literally live off the trade of speaking for and nursing those "disadvantaged" folks. That industry devours millions and millions of tax dollars in most developed countries, produces tons of human scum and then people get surprised with looting in times of natural disasters or social unrest. I'm surpised about why anybody else's surprised.

Mark

10th August 2011, 12:17

"There is a complete lack of irresponsibility" - David Cameron

Daniel

10th August 2011, 12:32

"There is a complete lack of irresponsibility" - David Cameron

:D

I don't think Cameron can be criticised too much. The rioting was on a far smaller scale last night due to the actions of the police and increased numbers. Hopefully tonight it'll get even smaller. I think though that something should have been done on Monday night, it got too far then.

The tories don't come across as soft, but they come across as unable to understand the mindset of those who are rioting, they seem to be treating them like naughty children.

AndyRAC

10th August 2011, 13:12

Generalisation alert - A lack of discipline, respect for authority and lack of suitable punishments is one result leading to this. The PC/goody goody brigade told us that coming down hard on people was not the answer. Going easy on them is not the answer either....

markabilly

10th August 2011, 13:29

Wow I tell you what, I stand in awe. You're such a big strong hero... I can only dream of being a big brave man like you Billy boy. I've gone all tingly.

]

Just when I thought there might be hope for you, you roll over like a sheep, and start saying I can only dream.....bah, baaaaahhhh,

markabilly

10th August 2011, 13:35

:D

Amazon.co.uk Movers and Shakers: The biggest gainers in Sports & Leisure sales rank over the past 24 hours (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/movers-and-shakers/sports/ref=zg_bs_tab)

Top sellers on Amazon in sports and leisure...... strange for a country that doesn't play baseball that baseball bats should be so popular.

sad, cause baseball bat will not do much good against those forty rioters wanting to bust in your house and have fun.

But hey, if you took serious action against these types as they come stomping in, all you other silly willies would be crying, murder, just like you did about tony martin or whoever, who shot those guys after busting into his house---repeatedly.

Daniel

10th August 2011, 13:38

sad, cause baseball bat will not do much good against those forty rioters wanting to bust in your house and have fun.

But hey, if you took serious action against these types as they come stomping in, all you other silly willies would be crying, murder, just like you did about tony martin or whoever, who shot those guys after busting into his house---repeatedly.

Err I suspect the rioters are buying the baseball bats :)

markabilly

10th August 2011, 13:44

years ago, about a hundred or so, texas had some big riot, so they called for the state militia. Word came in that they would be arriving on the train. So the good citizens huddled up at the train station, but when it arrived, only one Texas Ranger stepped off. They all cried out, where is the rest of the rangers??

He replied, "one riot, one ranger"

of course, shoot first was the rule back then.................

markabilly

10th August 2011, 13:45

Err I suspect the rioters are buying the baseball bats :)

no, they don't need to. they are the ones stealing the bats

Daniel

10th August 2011, 14:06

no, they don't need to. they are the ones stealing the bats

Markabilly, stores here generally don't sell baseball bats, people here don't play baseball.

Bagwan

10th August 2011, 15:31

Yes , the plan is working perfectly .

The outraged at the unrest will cry for the government to make new laws the further take away thier own human rights .

They'll come in silently and with all force , to take away all those trouble makers in the middle of the night .
You won't even notice your neighbour , Bob , is gone until you notice the dust building on his car .

Of course , this is perfect timing for this , given that the Olympics arrive soon .
Plenty of room for unrest there , unless you deal with it in advance like this .

Any shots of hoodies running back behind police lines yet ?
I haven't heard of any , so things are running smoothly out there on the front lines .

Bagwan

10th August 2011, 15:33

Markabilly, stores here generally don't sell baseball bats, people here don't play baseball.

I hear there's a whole league of folks that claim they play baseball with those bats .

Daniel

10th August 2011, 15:40

Not sure about people crying for the laws to be changed because of all this. As far as I am aware rioting, looting, mugging and burning peoples businesses and cars is illegal in the United Kingdom anyway.

That's what the liberal media want you to think!

Gregor-y

10th August 2011, 15:45

Markabilly, stores here generally don't sell baseball bats, people here don't play baseball.
Where's your national pride? Use cricket bats or hurleys or something.

Daniel

10th August 2011, 16:01

Where's your national pride? Use cricket bats or hurleys or something.

Hey it's not me using it :p

Tbh I feel a baseball bat is a better weapon personally.

Gregor-y

10th August 2011, 16:12

Just another wannabe Yank, then ;)

Maybe that's why the rioters are buying them; bats are a bit too balky in my mind.

Daniel

10th August 2011, 16:23

Just another wannabe Yank, then ;)

Maybe that's why the rioters are buying them; bats are a bit too balky in my mind.

I played baseball and teeball as a kid, they're fairly popular in Australia as sports :)

555-04Q2

10th August 2011, 16:55

Bagwan

10th August 2011, 17:11

slinkster

10th August 2011, 18:45

:D
I don't think Cameron can be criticised too much. The rioting was on a far smaller scale last night due to the actions of the police and increased numbers. Hopefully tonight it'll get even smaller. I think though that something should have been done on Monday night, it got too far then.
The tories don't come across as soft, but they come across as unable to understand the mindset of those who are rioting, they seem to be treating them like naughty children.

The rioting was on a lesser scale because the Police were just about able to increase numbers enough to plan better operations and use more force. It'll get less and less over the next week or so. However, if this happens next year- we're screwed. They'll be half the police force on the streets if the Tories continue with their plans for the Force.

This is mainly opportunists but this anarchy has been bubbling for a while now. The Tories hard line approach means jack all if we haven't got the police, courts and justice system financially stable enough to actually prosecute all these thugs.

Not sure about people crying for the laws to be changed because of all this. As far as I am aware rioting, looting, mugging and burning peoples businesses and cars is illegal in the United Kingdom anyway.

The human rights laws in this country DO need to be changed. They're a joke... as are many of the sentencing laws and restrictions in courts - and when half these thugs get away with mediocre community sentences because of the cost implications in prosecuting or taking them through court, it might finally make politicians take notice.

Retro Formula 1

11th August 2011, 06:54

Some people are brought up (or born, indeed) with the idea that the society, and the government and everybody else owes them something while they don't owe anything to anybody. They expect welfare and education to be brought to them and yet need to be convinced to accept it. They have no respect for law or property. There is a whole industry including pesky NGO activists, paper columnists and other do-gooders who literally live off the trade of speaking for and nursing those "disadvantaged" folks. That industry devours millions and millions of tax dollars in most developed countries, produces tons of human scum and then people get surprised with looting in times of natural disasters or social unrest. I'm surpised about why anybody else's surprised.

I'm not surprised. This has been a long time in the making but the bleeding heart brigade were apoplectic if you dared point it out.

Now we need to demand a culture change in this country and nail this cancer of the benefit class. There needs to be a reason for these people to work and an expectation that it's the norm. This is a great opportunity to make a real difference in this country.

Roamy

11th August 2011, 09:24

Daniel

11th August 2011, 09:34

I am pretty shocked by these events. Yikes when all of the fist world countries start rioting we will be deeper in sh!t !! Oh well the cesspool continues to grow - thank God for gorgeous Whores !! That is about the only beauty that will be left once they destroy Ferrari

I wish all the Brits the best and hope this ends very soon

Thanks Roamy, tbh I think it was just opportunistic, they saw the Police weren't there in numbers so they just went for it and it snowballed.

ArrowsFA1

11th August 2011, 09:57

The violent anarchy that has taken hold of British cities is the all-too-predictable outcome of a three-decade liberal experiment which tore up virtually every basic social value.

In short, what we have seen unfolding before our horrified gaze over the past four days in Britain is the true legacy of the Labour years.
UK riots 2011: Britain's liberal intelligentsia has smashed virtually every social value | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024690/UK-riots-2011-Britains-liberal-intelligentsia-smashed-virtually-social-value.html)

Thank goodness for the Daily Mail to set us all straight!

Daniel

11th August 2011, 10:22

UK riots 2011: Britain's liberal intelligentsia has smashed virtually every social value | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024690/UK-riots-2011-Britains-liberal-intelligentsia-smashed-virtually-social-value.html)

Thank goodness for the Daily Mail to set us all straight!

Definitely :p Nothing at all to do with the world becoming infinitely more materialistic and the fact that your success is now defined by how big your TV screen is and whether you have the latest iPhone. Then there are the outward displays of affluence which a lot of people make.

donKey jote

11th August 2011, 12:35

UK riots 2011: Britain's liberal intelligentsia has smashed virtually every social value | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024690/UK-riots-2011-Britains-liberal-intelligentsia-smashed-virtually-social-value.html)

Thank goodness for the Daily Mail to set us all straight!

yep :up:

what you all need is some sort of English Defence League to restore order and provide all these yobbos with a moral compass and proper social values :arrows: :andrea:

failing that... do a roamy and nuke'em ! :bandit:

Daniel

11th August 2011, 12:38

yep :up:

what you all need is some sort of English Defence League to restore order and provide all these yobbos with a moral compass and proper social values :arrows: :andrea:

failing that... do a roamy and nuke'em ! :bandit:

Although I despise the EDL, they do at least seem to be helping out and I think the Police needed help. I very much suspect that any rioter black or white is more scared of an EDL yob than the Police, though mob rule isn't exactly good......

donKey jote

11th August 2011, 12:47

the mind boggles :dozey:

ArrowsFA1

11th August 2011, 12:53

Now this is clearly a good thing:
Businesses that suffered vandalism or looting in the riots have been assured that banks will treat them "sympathetically and sensitively".
The British Bankers' Association (BBA), which represents the UK's biggest banks, said its members have put in place special measures, including extra financial support to help victims get back on their feet. UK riots: Cameron statement and Commons debate - live | UK news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/11/uk-riots-day-five-aftermath-live)

But there's something that says to me that the banks haven't been as quick to support businesses during the economic downturn :dozey: As a member of the government told Robert Peston (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13494103) in May: "We're a bit disappointed with the figures for lending to small business. Plainly we would expect the banks to do a bit better as the year goes on".

Rudy Tamasz

11th August 2011, 13:06

UK riots 2011: Britain's liberal intelligentsia has smashed virtually every social value | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024690/UK-riots-2011-Britains-liberal-intelligentsia-smashed-virtually-social-value.html)

Thank goodness for the Daily Mail to set us all straight!

One thing from that column I fully agree with is the statement that kids are more likely to behave in a criminal way if they do not have a good role model within their family. I guess that's the case with many rioters.

Bagwan

11th August 2011, 13:21

The looters or the police?
Theres no shops near me so a looting frenzy would be less likely and the police over here tend to knock on your door with a warant if they wish to check your house. Of course if you are a drug dealer or you have illegal guns, they do smash your door down at 4am, but that abouts as common as rocking horse poo. ;)

They'll take the people's rights when the people ask them to do so .

Bagwan

11th August 2011, 14:32

They are talking about cufews now .

They'll need you home if they are going to go to all the trouble of busting down your door .
After all , it's a wasted trip if you're not there , and they want to be sure they spend that money of yours wisely .

ArrowsFA1

11th August 2011, 14:56

One thing from that column I fully agree with is the statement that kids are more likely to behave in a criminal way if they do not have a good role model within their family. I guess that's the case with many rioters.
But how does a government try to ensure that kids have such a role model? Is it for government to legislate to say how family life should be structured, or to provide an incentive (i.e. tax breaks) for people to live in a particular way?

markabilly

11th August 2011, 15:10

Err I suspect the rioters are buying the baseball bats :)

or may be the citizens who what little defense is offerred by a bat, since they can not buy guns??????

I say they should swing for the fence.............

However, I do not know why, as bats are not much of a weapon, as they are easy to take way and their best use is to poke hard rather than swing.

And as an old man, when those 40 or so rioters come knocking on my door, I might get in several good whacks, before they take it away and shove it up my backside until it comes out my mouth. :eek:

I say no sir to the bats, and stick with 00 buck shot, for clearing a path and a pair of 45s for the precise work..... :D

of course I do not got to live in GB, and be left all defenseless like an Anglander

markabilly

11th August 2011, 15:13

:laugh: Classic :laugh:

yeah, back then in the good ole days, the only question to be raised over such an event was how many shots were required. If more than one, showed you needed some target practice....

Rudy Tamasz

11th August 2011, 16:53

Incentives are nice. They only work, though, if you have somebody to provide them to.

That is, if the facts from the column are true , the government should stop discriminating against the traditional family, for starters.

cali

11th August 2011, 17:05

markabilly's posts are getting more and more hilarious :D

Captain VXR

11th August 2011, 17:06

Can you imagine if shotgun's were legal in the UK? We would all have them. :eek:

From wikipedia

Single-barrelled, double-barrelled shotguns, or those with a lever-action, or pump-action and fixed magazine capacity of no more than two cartridges are permitted on a Shotgun Certificate. Shotguns with a magazine capacity of more than two-cartridges, and/or a detachable magazine, are permitted on a Section 1 Firearms Certificate. Certain types of shotgun ammunition, such as rifled slugs and larger shot sizes have to be bought following the grant of an FAC (firearms certificate). There is no limit on the amount of ammunition that a SGC (shotgun certificate) holder can acquire or possess at one time.
Its possible to get them in the UK

Gregor-y

11th August 2011, 19:03

This morning I was listening to the news and Judas Priest's 'Breaking the Law' got into my mind. This trouble is nothing new, after all.

donKey jote

11th August 2011, 20:10

That is, if the facts from the column are true , the government should stop discriminating against the traditional family, for starters.
IF :)

what do you mean by traditional family, not the one where the dad spends all day in the pub and comes home and beats his missus I suppose...

Bagwan

11th August 2011, 21:11

Yes , that's right , blame time , and time to get these laws in order .

Big Brother gonna knock on your door if you question authority .
Hustle those bums out of there whilst the gettin's good .

We demand to be oppressed because our dead-beat dads didn't teach us how to act properly with other humans !

Come on , sing it with me now .
We want oppression .
We want oppression .
We want oppression .

Clap your hands .

We want oppression .
We want oppression .
We want oppression .

Clap your hands .

Please chant this mantra before going through any doors , or opening any windows .

That is all for now .
Further directives forthcoming .

This message brought to you by your friendly neighbourhood nevermind .

markabilly

12th August 2011, 12:52

From wikipedia

Its possible to get them in the UK

time to load up!!!!!!

of course there remains the tony martin problem of the fact that everyone of of you guys love those rioters and be off hollering "murderer" and giving rehab to those nasty boys ....

However, while the daily mail seems to have nailed the liberal intelligensia very correctly, it strikes me as I have warned you guys before, that there ain't no protection like that when you load it yourself.

Or one Texas ranger with a 45 who can show straight.......Gee I am so disappointed in Henners, just when I thought my boy was going to grow a pair.

Besides, did not a lot of this kinda stuff of riots happen in Germany as it went sliding off into nazism???? Oh, I know, it is the old "can not happen here.....

cali

12th August 2011, 12:55

time to load up!!!!!!

of course there remains the tony martin problem of the fact that everyone of of you guys love those rioters and be off hollering "murderer" and giving rehab to those nasty boys ....

However, while the daily mail seems to have nailed the liberal intelligensia very correctly, it strikes me as I have warned you guys before, that there ain't no protection like that when you load it yourself.

Or one Texas ranger with a 45 who can show straight.......Gee I am so disappointed in Henners, just when I thought my boy was going to grow a pair.

Besides, did not a lot of this kinda stuff of riots happen in Germany as it went sliding off into nazism???? Oh, I know, it is the old "can not happen here.....

Epic :D

Retro Formula 1

12th August 2011, 12:58

IF :)

what do you mean by traditional family, not the one where the dad spends all day in the pub and comes home and beats his missus I suppose...

You been on the Stella again? ;)

markabilly

12th August 2011, 13:20

IF :)

what do you mean by traditional family, not the one where the dad spends all day in the pub and comes home and beats his missus I suppose...

I tried to teach you better than that, but you just don't listen...............

Bagwan

12th August 2011, 19:19

We want oppression .
Clap your hands .

100 doors proudly kicked in today by the people's army , uh , I mean police forces .

Go get'em , tigers .

We want oppression .
Clap your hands .

markabilly

13th August 2011, 16:38

We want oppression .
Clap your hands .

100 doors proudly kicked in today by the people's army , uh , I mean police forces .

Go get'em , tigers .

We want oppression .
Clap your hands .

thus it begins.....

markabilly

13th August 2011, 16:45

If carried out on the scale Mr. Cameron and his ministers have proposed, the measure would probably be the most punitive of the sanctions that they have said would be considered in response to the worst civil disorder in a generation. More than 10 million Britons, about one in six, live in public housing.

Asked whether that would render them homeless, he replied, “They should have thought of that before they started burgling.”

Asked how those so penalized would live, Mr. Pickles responded, “They could get a job.”

“Removing people for unacceptable behavior from social housing does not solve the problem,” Kevin Barron, a Labour legislator, said, since it would require local authorities to find alternative housing for evicted families.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/13/world/europe/13britain.html?ref=world

Seems to be getting nasty---making people get jobs, gee what is the world coming to??????? :eek:

Guess they could start with cleaning up the mess they created..... :rolleyes:

Captain VXR

13th August 2011, 20:48

the daily mail seems to have nailed the liberal intelligensia very correctly

Riots and looting never happen in countries with long term right wing governments then?

donKey jote

13th August 2011, 22:46

professor markaduff and daniela barnes in the 80's :p

04clpd7h0b0

:mark:

Eki

13th August 2011, 23:04

Captain VXR

13th August 2011, 23:09

^^^ahahahahahaha^^^
made my day :D
But then somehow people get less for animal cruelty???

Malbec

14th August 2011, 02:08

^^^ahahahahahaha^^^
made my day :D
But then somehow people get less for animal cruelty???

It might be funny but is it right?

The guy wasn't in the riots, he was walking home when he saw an opportunity and made an error he regretted, picked up a bottle of water and got arrested. Sounds like a kneejerk reaction out of all proportion that will seriously impact his life.

I'm getting the impression that a large chunk of the people arrested were not the rioters but easy pickings for the police, random members of the public that saw their chance and picked up stuff long after the real rioters had realised the police were on their way and moved on.

Discrimination here is needed. The rioters should be dealt with harshly and I fully agree with referral to the high court specifically so they can get a stiffer sentence but opportunistic crimes should be dealt with in a proportionate fashion.

markabilly

14th August 2011, 05:10

It might be funny but is it right?

The guy wasn't in the riots, he was walking home when he saw an opportunity and made an error he regretted, picked up a bottle of water and got arrested. Sounds like a kneejerk reaction out of all proportion that will seriously impact his life.

I'm getting the impression that a large chunk of the people arrested were not the rioters but easy pickings for the police, random members of the public that saw their chance and picked up stuff long after the real rioters had realised the police were on their way and moved on.

Discrimination here is needed. The rioters should be dealt with harshly and I fully agree with referral to the high court specifically so they can get a stiffer sentence but opportunistic crimes should be dealt with in a proportionate fashion.

Right. It is only a serious crime when done by the wrong sort of person....

you any kin to Ms Bachmann?

markabilly

14th August 2011, 05:13

professor markaduff and daniela barnes in the 80's :p

:mark:

Not realistic.

Problem is getting them to hold still... and finding good choppers as they are hard to come by........

http://www.motorsportforums.com/attachments/chitchat/2808d1313292847-tottenham-riots-5187506635_dbd39012d0-compressed.jpg

Yes sir, you rang?

and hey Michelle, you should try it, start with that husband of your'em and you won't have to obeying him when you get to be the prez....

markabilly

14th August 2011, 05:35

[ http://www.motorsportforums.com/attachments/chitchat/2808d1313292847-tottenham-riots-5187506635_dbd39012d0-compressed.jpg

Yes sir, you rang?

and hey Michelle, you should try it, start with that husband of your'em and you won't have to obeying him when you get to be the prez....

donKey jote

14th August 2011, 10:16

Discrimination here is needed.

MarkaBillyBratton (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/13/bill-bratton-advice-uk-police), the super-sheriff, appears to agree:

"Arrest is certainly appropriate for the most violent, the incorrigible, but so much of it can be addressed in other ways and it's not just a police issue, it is in fact a societal issue," he told US broadcaster ABC.

markabilly

14th August 2011, 12:59

MarkaBillyBratton (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/13/bill-bratton-advice-uk-police), the super-sheriff, appears to agree:

No, LA police do not discriminate. Catch you stealing and you go to jail. They do not ask for you to fill out a questionairre before you are arrested, with such as questions about how violent do you feel in the morning, do you love your kids, are you incorrrigble, are you a gang memeber....

or decide based on "do you look like a rioter"(ie, darker than your usual english criminal).... :rolleyes:

Everyone gets arrested, regardless of race, creed or national origin for a crime

And they do employ fear tactics, but now try to keep the Rodney King type beatings where they do not get video-taped and are now done by a racially diverse police group.....as they still say in LA, you might beat the rap, but you will not beat the ride

what he really said was:

Police forces should be more assertive in their dealings with offenders so criminals would "fear them" and lose confidence in their ability to commit crimes, he said in an interview with the Telegraph.

Bratton advocates a doctrine of "escalating force" against criminals calling for rubber bullets, Tasers, pepper spray and water cannon as potential weapons.

when not interviewing for a job with cameron, he would also add, well placed lead bullets :eek:

no, LA police do not discriminate, they intimidate :vader:

of course, there is one exception---such as officer Russell Mecano, who used to trade freedom from arrest for a a BJ....

Malbec

14th August 2011, 18:16

Right. It is only a serious crime when done by the wrong sort of person....

When will you learn to read?

The man hadn't taken part in the riots ie he wasn't a rioter. Both prosecution and defense agree he was walking home when he saw am empty looted shop and took a bottle of water, he was prosecuted for theft whereas in a normal situation its doubtful the police would have done anything more than caution him.

Meanwhile people who physically attacked police officers get 14 weeks.

Interesting that you insinuate the racial angle with Bachmann when AFAIA the man's race hasn't been made public.

Daniel

14th August 2011, 18:50

When will you learn to read?

The man hadn't taken part in the riots ie he wasn't a rioter. Both prosecution and defense agree he was walking home when he saw am empty looted shop and took a bottle of water, he was prosecuted for theft whereas in a normal situation its doubtful the police would have done anything more than caution him.

Meanwhile people who physically attacked police officers get 14 weeks.

Interesting that you insinuate the racial angle with Bachmann when AFAIA the man's race hasn't been made public.

Completely agree. I'm all for making examples of people, but we need to be consistent. If he was jailed for 6 months then others should have had far harsher penalties.

harsha

16th August 2011, 10:34

geez , all over the world , they are protests for democracy and against corruption....

and some people riot cause they don't have LCD TV's

:( :( :(

Retro Formula 1

16th August 2011, 16:43

I love Pat. Spot on as per normal :laugh:

PAT CONDELL'S GODLESS COMEDY (http://www.patcondell.net/)

donKey jote

16th August 2011, 19:58

or just another one of you ranting pricks :laugh:
An illiberal consensus | Godless Comedy on blip.tv (http://blip.tv/godless-comedy/an-illiberal-consensus-5341882)

markabilly

17th August 2011, 14:57

When will you learn to read?

The man hadn't taken part in the riots ie he wasn't a rioter. Both prosecution and defense agree he was walking home when he saw am empty looted shop and took a bottle of water, he was prosecuted for theft whereas in a normal situation its doubtful the police would have done anything more than caution him.

Meanwhile people who physically attacked police officers get 14 weeks.

Interesting that you insinuate the racial angle with Bachmann when AFAIA the man's race hasn't been made public.

Still quilty, and he was looting by his very actions.

Yeah, he may not have kicked down a door, but it is all the same.

As to the 14 weeks, well that should have been far longer, like 14 years.

Daniel

17th August 2011, 15:09

Still quilty, and he was looting by his very actions.

Yeah, he may not have kicked down a door, but it is all the same.

As to the 14 weeks, well that should have been far longer, like 14 years.

14 weeks is just silly for taking a bottle of water from a store which had already been broken into.

markabilly

17th August 2011, 15:32

14 weeks is just silly for taking a bottle of water from a store which had already been broken into.

he got six months.

the rioters were getting 14 weeks which is what i referred to.

SGWilko

17th August 2011, 15:48

I was amused when I read that some looter was going to prison for stealing a bottle of water from Lidl. I bet he's sorry now that he didn't loot at least a case of beer.

London riots: Lidl water thief jailed for six months - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8695988/London-riots-Lidl-water-thief-jailed-for-six-months.html)

Perhaps there is a lesson to be learned here then - it matters not what you steal - if you steal, you are breaking the law and should suffer the consequences.

SGWilko

17th August 2011, 15:53

whereas in a normal situation its doubtful the police would have done anything more than caution him.

And it's pussyfooting around like this for so many years that has allowed such wanton destruction to innocent families/shopkeepers homes/businesses/lives to happen.

Daniel

17th August 2011, 16:49

Perhaps there is a lesson to be learned here then - it matters not what you steal - if you steal, you are breaking the law and should suffer the consequences.

I agree largely. But stealing a bottle of water doesn't deserve a sentence!

Bagwan

17th August 2011, 17:11

I agree largely. But stealing a bottle of water doesn't deserve a sentence!

Tell that to the owner of the shop .

"Honest , sir , I just happened to be walking by when this crazy stuff started going on , and I suddenly got so thirsty that I couldn't make it home for a drink of water . I didn't know I was in a store being looted ." -Joe Blow (sad , thirsty victim)

Yeah , sad to see someone victimized just for being thirsty .

Malbec

17th August 2011, 17:53

Tell that to the owner of the shop .

"Honest , sir , I just happened to be walking by when this crazy stuff started going on , and I suddenly got so thirsty that I couldn't make it home for a drink of water . I didn't know I was in a store being looted ." -Joe Blow (sad , thirsty victim)

Yeah , sad to see someone victimized just for being thirsty .

Fine, a guy with no criminal history caused no damage to people or property (neither did he threaten to) gets 6 months for theft. Meanwhile others with long criminal histories get 14 weeks for attacking police officers. Presumably the physical safety of police officers is of far less importance than the loss of a bottle of water.

Over the last couple of days three guys were found guilty of inciting riots over facebook. Luckily the only people who turned up to the 'riots' were the police who arrested the instigators.

Two got given sentences of four years each:

Facebook riot inciters among those to get toughest jail terms yet - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/facebook/8705212/Facebook-riot-inciters-among-those-to-get-toughest-jail-terms-yet.html)

The third guy? He has to write a letter of apology as his punishment:

England riots: teenager freed after encouraging vandalism on Facebook - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/facebook/8706485/England-riots-teenager-freed-after-encouraging-vandalism-on-Facebook.html)

The consistency of these sentences is an utter joke. We've had riots and looting recently whether they be the student fees demo earlier this year and Bradford in 2001. In all cases magistrates were allowed (and did) bump up sentences because of the circumstances but they were consistent. This time they are being pushed to make sentencing even more severe by the government which raises a lot of questions in itself.

The random way in which the sentences are decided however leaves the whole system open to ridicule and more importantly to a succession of appeals. The public call for harsh sentencing shouldn't result in a lowering of standards in the judiciary system but it is. Its pathetic.

SGWilko

17th August 2011, 18:11

Fine, a guy with no criminal history caused no damage to people or property (neither did he threaten to) gets 6 months for theft. Meanwhile others with long criminal histories get 14 weeks for attacking police officers. Presumably the physical safety of police officers is of far less importance than the loss of a bottle of water.

Over the last couple of days three guys were found guilty of inciting riots over facebook. Luckily the only people who turned up to the 'riots' were the police who arrested the instigators.

Two got given sentences of four years each:

Facebook riot inciters among those to get toughest jail terms yet - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/facebook/8705212/Facebook-riot-inciters-among-those-to-get-toughest-jail-terms-yet.html)

The third guy? He has to write a letter of apology as his punishment:

England riots: teenager freed after encouraging vandalism on Facebook - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/facebook/8706485/England-riots-teenager-freed-after-encouraging-vandalism-on-Facebook.html)

The consistency of these sentences is an utter joke. We've had riots and looting recently whether they be the student fees demo earlier this year and Bradford in 2001. In all cases magistrates were allowed (and did) bump up sentences because of the circumstances but they were consistent. This time they are being pushed to make sentencing even more severe by the government which raises a lot of questions in itself.

The random way in which the sentences are decided however leaves the whole system open to ridicule and more importantly to a succession of appeals. The public call for harsh sentencing shouldn't result in a lowering of standards in the judiciary system but it is. Its pathetic.

Lets put it this way - if you don't want to risk getting a sentence (any sentence) then don't break the law.

It's a very simple concept.

I don't accept the excuse of 'I don't have a record, and I wasn't thinking when I committed the crime'.

Commit a crime, suffer the consequence.

We now have all these do-gooders moaning about the length of sentences. Tough bloody luck. Criminals, no matter what the circumstances, deserve to be punished.

There is also a clear message that needs to be put out, and I believe that is happening.

I want to see a society where, if you disrespect a bobby on the beat, he has the power to give you a clip round the ear'ole, where teachers are allowed to discipline their unruly pupils.

I like to think we are edging back to that mentality - it's just a shame that it took a riot.....

SGWilko

17th August 2011, 18:13

I agree largely. But stealing a bottle of water doesn't deserve a sentence!

It's not what you stole, it's that you DID steal, and therefore broke the law. If you don't like the sentence, don't commit the crime!!!!!!!!!!!

SGWilko

17th August 2011, 18:15

When will you learn to read?

The man hadn't taken part in the riots ie he wasn't a rioter. Both prosecution and defense agree he was walking home when he saw am empty looted shop and took a bottle of water, he was prosecuted for theft whereas in a normal situation its doubtful the police would have done anything more than caution him.

Meanwhile people who physically attacked police officers get 14 weeks.

Interesting that you insinuate the racial angle with Bachmann when AFAIA the man's race hasn't been made public.

He may not have been a rioter, but he WAS a looter. xbox, water, whatever - it is stealing and therefore a crime. It's about time all crime was punished!!!!

Bob Riebe

17th August 2011, 18:48

It's not what you stole, it's that you DID steal, and therefore broke the law. If you don't like the sentence, don't commit the crime!!!!!!!!!!!There is an old TV theme song with the lines--"If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."

SGWilko

17th August 2011, 18:51

There is an old TV theme song with the lines--"If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."

Well, here's the one that's driving me beserk......

Malbec

17th August 2011, 19:06

Lets put it this way - if you don't want to risk getting a sentence (any sentence) then don't break the law.

It's a very simple concept.

So I presume you NEVER speed right? Or is speeding an exception because you're unlikely to be caught and everyone does it anyway? You've always admitted it when someone in a shop accidentally hands you too much change right? You've never walked away with it in your pocket?

I don't accept the excuse of 'I don't have a record, and I wasn't thinking when I committed the crime'.

Its not an excuse. There is a clear difference between someone who breaks the law as a one off, whether its because they lose control in an extreme situation or commit an opportunistic crime and someone who is a career criminal. The latter need to be treated differently.

We now have all these do-gooders moaning about the length of sentences. Tough bloody luck. Criminals, no matter what the circumstances, deserve to be punished.

Of course, shame thats not my point.

There is also a clear message that needs to be put out, and I believe that is happening.

I want to see a society where, if you disrespect a bobby on the beat, he has the power to give you a clip round the ear'ole, where teachers are allowed to discipline their unruly pupils.

I like to think we are edging back to that mentality - it's just a shame that it took a riot.....

The clear message that is going out is that there is no consistency.

Use Facebook to start a riot in one part of the country and face four years in jail. Do exactly the same in another part of the country and get away with writing a letter of apology. Do you see a problem here?

Regardless of how liberal or harsh any judicial system is, the most fundamental criteria it has to fulfil is that it has to be consistent and proportionate. Commit the same crime and get a similar sentence. That should be an easy point to understand.

SGWilko

17th August 2011, 20:44

So I presume you NEVER speed right? Or is speeding an exception because you're unlikely to be caught and everyone does it anyway? You've always admitted it when someone in a shop accidentally hands you too much change right? You've never walked away with it in your pocket?

Its not an excuse. There is a clear difference between someone who breaks the law as a one off, whether its because they lose control in an extreme situation or commit an opportunistic crime and someone who is a career criminal. The latter need to be treated differently.

Of course, shame thats not my point.

The clear message that is going out is that there is no consistency.

Use Facebook to start a riot in one part of the country and face four years in jail. Do exactly the same in another part of the country and get away with writing a letter of apology. Do you see a problem here?

Regardless of how liberal or harsh any judicial system is, the most fundamental criteria it has to fulfil is that it has to be consistent and proportionate. Commit the same crime and get a similar sentence. That should be an easy point to understand.

I deid sppeed once - was doing 42 in a 30 limit - about 6 months after passing my test. Don't do it anymore, and have a clean licence to prove it.

If people get away with 'one-offs' they'll have the temptation to do it again.

I only know of two scrotes that have adroitley been banged up for this, what is the other example?

BDunnell

17th August 2011, 23:21

14 weeks is just silly for taking a bottle of water from a store which had already been broken into.

Mr Consistency.

Had the law been meted out in the way you were suggesting earlier, this individual would have been shot dead on sight.

Daniel

17th August 2011, 23:29

Mr Consistency.

Had the law been meted out in the way you were suggesting earlier, this individual would have been shot dead on sight.

Had the law been meted out in the way I was suggesting earlier, this individual would have been too scared to even walk past a shop with a broken window :)

BDunnell

17th August 2011, 23:30

Lets put it this way - if you don't want to risk getting a sentence (any sentence) then don't break the law.

It's a very simple concept.

I don't accept the excuse of 'I don't have a record, and I wasn't thinking when I committed the crime'.

Commit a crime, suffer the consequence.

We now have all these do-gooders moaning about the length of sentences. Tough bloody luck. Criminals, no matter what the circumstances, deserve to be punished.

But what if the law is wrong? I am getting the feeling you are one of those people who is happy with the legal status quo, come what may.

I want to see a society where, if you disrespect a bobby on the beat, he has the power to give you a clip round the ear'ole, where teachers are allowed to discipline their unruly pupils.

Yes, let's forget all the many faults of the police — corruption, racism, etc — and develop a blind, servile respect for them. Great idea. I disrespect most policemen, but don't act upon it. Do you suggest one should come round to me and clip me round the ear?

I like to think we are edging back to that mentality - it's just a shame that it took a riot.....

I like to think that the more intelligent members of society still have a problem with the attitudes and behaviour of large sections of the police.

One of my biggest irritations about the riots is that, beforehand, the Met was getting the pasting it has long deserved for inefficiency and corruption, in relation to the phone hacking case. Now the rioters have provided an opportunity for people to feel sorry for them again! Forgive me if I don't participate.

BDunnell

17th August 2011, 23:31

Had the law been meted out in the way I was suggesting earlier, this individual would have been too scared to even walk past a shop with a broken window :)

Yes, hilarious.

ArrowsFA1

18th August 2011, 00:28

Daniel

18th August 2011, 00:30

BDunnell

18th August 2011, 00:48

Bob Riebe

18th August 2011, 05:33

As in so many things, there is little new under the sun, and people — politicians included — would do well to have longer memories, or study things more deeply, before proclaiming present day society's alleged problems to be uniquely appalling.
The Book of Ecclesiastes says NOTHING is new under the sun. Unfortunately people being ignorant and gullible is one of them.

Malbec

18th August 2011, 11:03

This caught my attention: Facebook cases trigger criticism of 'disproportionate' riot sentences | UK news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/17/facebook-cases-criticism-riot-sentences)

Not because of the particular instances referred to but because the sentencing in the aftermath of these events is seemingly being 'adjusted' to suit the current political will. Oh, I'm sure the politicians say this has nothing to do with them and that these are purely the decisions of the courts - the judiciary is independent after all - but I have my doubts.

Whether there has been political arm twisting going on or not I do think we should be concerned when someone says that some of the sentences "make a mockery of proportionality, which is a key principle of the justice system."

Eric Pickles is right when he says that: "the public would be rightly alarmed if that incitement to riot got off with just a slap on the wrist" but who exactly is suggesting a slap on the wrist should be the penalty for these criminals? No one!

If we're not careful we'll end up with the inconsistent kind of ad-hoc "justice" seen in F1 in recent years!

What worries me is how the judiciary have received directives from on high to increase sentences, presumably to sate the crowd demanding blood. Its too late to shoot them on sight so lock 'em away and throw away the key instead.

As the chief of the police pointed out recently, politicians have no role in determining tactical or even strategic policing decisions. The same is true of the judiciary. In fact having an independent police and judiciary is one of the foundations of a democracy.

Another thing we should not forget is exactly how strong our society proved to be.

While a few thousand spontaneously rioted, an even greater number spontaneously got together the morning after to clean up the mess and help restore order.

In an area of Birmingham which had previously seen race riots we heard the most eloquent speech of the whole episode from a Muslim man who had lost his son the night before imploring people from every walk of life to stay calm. Whats more, people listened and stayed home instead of inflaming the situation.

We saw disabled old women challenging rioters and looters head on. Immigrant communities that others on this thread have already tried to blame for the riots kept order on the streets where they live, freeing up police to sort out problems elsewhere. People from all origins banding together and just helping out.

To ignore all that and focus purely on the rioting as an indictment of our society seems a little short sighted. As Boris said, Britain is not a broken society whatever David Cameron may claim, it merely has problems that need sorting out. Overreacting and abandoning things like the independency of the judiciary and concepts such as proportionality of punishment would be a defeat.

Daniel

18th August 2011, 11:13

What worries me is how the judiciary have received directives from on high to increase sentences, presumably to sate the crowd demanding blood. Its too late to shoot them on sight so lock 'em away and throw away the key instead.

As the chief of the police pointed out recently, politicians have no role in determining tactical or even strategic policing decisions. The same is true of the judiciary. In fact having an independent police and judiciary is one of the foundations of a democracy.

Another thing we should not forget is exactly how strong our society proved to be.

While a few thousand spontaneously rioted, an even greater number spontaneously got together the morning after to clean up the mess and help restore order.

In an area of Birmingham which had previously seen race riots we heard the most eloquent speech of the whole episode from a Muslim man who had lost his son the night before imploring people from every walk of life to stay calm. Whats more, people listened and stayed home instead of inflaming the situation.

We saw disabled old women challenging rioters and looters head on. Immigrant communities that others on this thread have already tried to blame for the riots kept order on the streets where they live, freeing up police to sort out problems elsewhere. People from all origins banding together and just helping out.

To ignore all that and focus purely on the rioting as an indictment of our society seems a little short sighted. As Boris said, Britain is not a broken society whatever David Cameron may claim, it merely has problems that need sorting out. Overreacting and abandoning things like the independency of the judiciary and concepts such as proportionality of punishment would be a defeat.

I completely agree that Britain is NOT broken. I come from Australia, which a lot of British people feel is some idyllic place where none of this happens, whilst we don't get rioting, Australia is not perfect and on average (in my opinion) is more multicultural than the UK. Only difference in the UK is that minorities tend to stick together more, which is perhaps something to do with the warm welcome some give them.....

SGWilko

18th August 2011, 12:28

But what if the law is wrong? I am getting the feeling you are one of those people who is happy with the legal status quo, come what may.

Not at all, but my experience of the law (my grandfather was a bobby on the beat out of Tottenham Court Road Station in the days when the Police wore capes, did a good job and were respected because they showed respect) is that the Police should be allowed to enforce, not afraid to do their jobs for fear of legal action. Then there is all the paperwork that ties their hands behind their backs. Its a politically correct eggshell treading world gone mad, and has led to the police to being what it is sadly.

As a matter of interest, I had to beg my old boss for a bridging loan so I could move house - we purchased a lovely townhouse - brand new it was. Then all the scum (and I use the word advisedly here) moved into the 'affordable housing' section. Only one family in that block were well meaning, and their lives were made a living hell. There was drug dealing, swearing, spitting, foul language, dangerous dogs, white goods left in front gardens etc. I wrote to the police so many times (in fact, I am still waiting for the chief of Kent police to reply....) to get them to do their jobs. We joined neighbouhood watch and tried to engage these people, but they were not interested. I can tell you that in the middle of summer, you could not open your windows otherwise my kids would have been exposed to the constant foul language from the communal play area at the front of the house (which we had to contribute toward for maintenance). So you see, I have an interest in seeing this area of a very broken society being dragged up by the scruff and finally being dealt with.

Yes, let's forget all the many faults of the police — corruption, racism, etc — and develop a blind, servile respect for them. Great idea. I disrespect most policemen, but don't act upon it. Do you suggest one should come round to me and clip me round the ear?

I see the ensuing situation as the country addressing many faults and starting to deal with them, not simply brushing past wrongs under the carpet

I like to think that the more intelligent members of society still have a problem with the attitudes and behaviour of large sections of the police.

If you are law abiding citizens, save for if you are unfortunate to have an RTA for example, you ought not to have to much to do with the police.

One of my biggest irritations about the riots is that, beforehand, the Met was getting the pasting it has long deserved for inefficiency and corruption, in relation to the phone hacking case. Now the rioters have provided an opportunity for people to feel sorry for them again! Forgive me if I don't participate.

Inefficency of the Police is well and truly one to be laid at the governments doorstep. You can't upset the ethnic minorities incase they cry wolf, the poor can't be picked on ya da etc.

The way I see it is this - if you go, for example, to Abu Dhabi or wherever it is, and walk about showing a lot of flesh, you get banged up (and rightly so, you obey the law of the country) - so why can't our laws apply to all, instead of having to tippy toe on eggshells around every oik and his wife?

Malbec

18th August 2011, 13:01

Not at all, but my experience of the law (my grandfather was a bobby on the beat out of Tottenham Court Road Station in the days when the Police wore capes, did a good job and were respected because they showed respect) is that the Police should be allowed to enforce, not afraid to do their jobs for fear of legal action. Then there is all the paperwork that ties their hands behind their backs. Its a politically correct eggshell treading world gone mad, and has led to the police to being what it is sadly.

If you are law abiding citizens, save for if you are unfortunate to have an RTA for example, you ought not to have to much to do with the police.

Actually the police need to be policed too.

I've had more dealing with the police than most being in the medical profession. Most of the time they're fine, bringing us 'custom' or coming to our aid when something kicks off, usually promptly. When we had shooting cases we worked with armed police protection, they were there as much for us as they were to protect the patients. I do have a lot to thank the police for.

I've testified for police officers injured performing their duties as well as of course being involved in their care which I hope has paid them back somewhat.

I've also overheard police officers talking about how they've engineered incidents to make it look as if they've been attacked so they could beat the living daylights out of someone. I've treated people who were denied medication for long term and life threatening illnesses until the police realised that there may be serious consequences to that. I've had a colleague hospitalised because the police at a football match decided to have some fun, remove their ID numbers and wade in with their truncheons on a group of fans who wanted to leave a match early to miss the post-match traffic jam.

I described on another thread how I once had to tell a young father and their five year old son that their mother was brain dead. I didn't describe how it happened. She had been turning right at a junction when a police Land Rover Discovery ran through a red light and hit her car at speed. Rushing to an emergency? Nope, the police driver who was lightly injured was happy to explain that they had only been transferring a prisoner from one station to another and was the young lady in the other car okay?

Much as I'd like to paint the police as angels like you have I've had far too much experience with them to portray them as such. Some of them behave as you'd expect young men with power to, they abuse it whenever they have the chance. Others are often just thugs. I'm damn glad the police have to look over their shoulder, we know what happens when they're not watched and its not pretty.

The way I see it is this - if you go, for example, to Abu Dhabi or wherever it is, and walk about showing a lot of flesh, you get banged up (and rightly so, you obey the law of the country) - so why can't our laws apply to all, instead of having to tippy toe on eggshells around every oik and his wife?

So, in which cases (apart from after this riot as I flagged up) do you see some parts of the population being treated with kid gloves? Are you talking about News International journalists by any chance?

SGWilko

18th August 2011, 13:15

So, in which cases (apart from after this riot as I flagged up) do you see some parts of the population being treated with kid gloves? Are you talking about News International journalists by any chance?

On the contrary, every person that is found to have commited a crime should be dealt with in the same manner, regardless of whether it will upset their beliefs, faiths, human rights (and this is the big noose around the police/courts neck) etc.

SGWilko

18th August 2011, 13:18

Much as I'd like to paint the police as angels like you have

I'm certainly not making them out to be the innocent here, but if they are allowed to do their jobs - properly - without a multidude of legaleise, paperwork and human rights bollox getting in the way, then it will be a much more efficient and less corrupt police force that serves us.

Malbec

18th August 2011, 13:22

On the contrary, every person that is found to have commited a crime should be dealt with in the same manner, regardless of whether it will upset their beliefs, faiths, human rights (and this is the big noose around the police/courts neck) etc.

You'll find that respecting people's human rights means that they will all be treated equally. I don't see the problem with that.

Again, can you bring up specific cases? Or am I to understand you are against stop and searches being 7 times more common on black males than they are on whites? On that I agree with you.

Bagwan

18th August 2011, 13:23

There is an old TV theme song with the lines--"If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."

That's "Baretta" , with Robert Blake .

Malbec

18th August 2011, 13:24

I'm certainly not making them out to be the innocent here, but if they are allowed to do their jobs - properly - without a multidude of legaleise, paperwork and human rights bollox getting in the way, then it will be a much more efficient and less corrupt police force that serves us.

Can you let me know in what way all the legalese etc as you put it encourages senior police officers to jump into bed with journalists? You're not making much sense here.

I can understand how removing paperwork makes the police more efficient but how does it make it less corrupt? More paperwork = bigger papertrail = better auditing and makes it easier for corruption to be found out.

SGWilko

18th August 2011, 13:52

You'll find that respecting people's human rights means that they will all be treated equally. I don't see the problem with that.

Again, can you bring up specific cases? Or am I to understand you are against stop and searches being 7 times more common on black males than they are on whites? On that I agree with you.

I see it that if you break the law, you should cease to have rights - it's a choice thing - if you choose to break the law, you choose to suffer the consequences.

Without being labelled racist, the fact is that, one of the myriad reasons we moved, was the family in one of the privately owned houses opposite ours, were Ghanians. The mother (I don't know the situation re the father) was a Paediatrician, and worked at Guys - she would often remain in town during the week. Her Son and a lodger (the father of the lodger was a High Court Judge in Ghana) were teenagers and left to their own devices during the week.

There would be a constant stream of souped up but clapped out cars pulling up to that house at all hours during the week, music blearing at all hours. Can't imagine what for, can you?????

Anyway, it turns out that the lodger was studying law (or was supposed to be), and was only over on a visa and the terms were that he needed to pass his exams and get a job in order to remain over here.

He failed, then failed re-takes. His last chance - re-taking a final time he failed again, but neglected to let his landlord know (he knew she would tell his father - the judge).

Anyway, she did find out, he found out she had found out, so he murdered her.

Meanwhile, while on my way to a meeting at work, I get a phone-call from the wife. In a terrible state she was. She'd just made a start on clearing out the garage (we were trying to move at that point, such was the untenable situation) when the Son of the now dead mother had finally dragged himself out of bed and found his mum covered in blood in her car as she had attempted to head off for work.

My wife, without thinking, ran over to assist (despite the fact that these individuals had contributed to making our lives a living hell) as the Son was trying to call an ambulance but was too busy shouting abuse down the line. So, she grabs the phone, and gets stuck in, helping drag the obviously dead multiple stabbed (not light) mother out the car, dealing with the ambulance people on the phone etc......

Long and short of it is, that it is not my fault they happened to be black, or that most of the dertritus they were selling drugs to were also black (oh yes, they were dealers). That just happens to be a fact.

To this day, my wife has panic attacks if she sees blood or crime scenes on the telly, maybe she should have minded her own business.

So the black thing wont wash with me I am afraid. It is very easy to use the 'race card', and this is where the police have to tread on eggshells.

And yes, does it show that I have little sympathy for common criminals and the scum of society who care not for anyone else but themselves?

SGWilko

18th August 2011, 13:54

Can you let me know in what way all the legalese etc as you put it encourages senior police officers to jump into bed with journalists? You're not making much sense here.

I heard that a number of senior officers, including Stephenson, have been cleared of wrongdoing.....

Malbec

18th August 2011, 13:59

So the black thing wont wash with me I am afraid. It is very easy to use the 'race card', and this is where the police have to tread on eggshells.

And yes, does it show that I have little sympathy for common criminals and the scum of society of care not for anyone else but themselves?

I heard about that case, about a year and a half ago I think? Sorry to hear that you/your family were involved.

However that is still just the one case. If I was to extrapolate from what happened in the Manchester riots where the youths were almost overwhelmingly white what conclusion would I draw?

As for losing human rights, at what point do you lose them? When you're arrested?

Malbec

18th August 2011, 14:00

I heard that a number of senior officers, including Stephenson, have been cleared of wrongdoing.....

Woah...

The whole phone hacking thing hasn't even kicked off properly yet, we've only just barely scratched the surface especially now it looks like James Murdoch lied to the select committee. Its way too early to see how far things go and who is involved. Lets wait and see on this one.

SGWilko

18th August 2011, 14:03

I heard about that case, about a year and a half ago I think? Sorry to hear that you/your family were involved.

However that is still just the one case. If I was to extrapolate from what happened in the Manchester riots where the youths were almost overwhelmingly white what conclusion would I draw?

As for losing human rights, at what point do you lose them? When you're arrested?

2007 I think - time flies now that we have moved!

I'm not looking for sympathy, just trying to get across where my viewpoint is coming from. It's a chapter of our lives, especially because our kids were young and impressionable and our instinct was to pretect them from the worst of society, that we really want to try to forget, but any news such as the riots etc just brings it all back.

If I knew all the answers, I'd have submitted my application before midday yesterday. ;)

SGWilko

18th August 2011, 14:05

Woah...

The whole phone hacking thing hasn't even kicked off properly yet, we've only just barely scratched the surface especially now it looks like James Murdoch lied to the select committee. Its way too early to see how far things go and who is involved. Lets wait and see on this one.

As you see, it is not just the police that are corrupt. Unfortunately, right from the beginning (if you happen to believe in it) there was corruption - look at Adam............

A bit simplistic I know, but we are all human and have many many flaws.

Daniel

18th August 2011, 14:07

I see it that if you break the law, you should cease to have rights - it's a choice thing - if you choose to break the law, you choose to suffer the consequences.

Without being labelled racist, the fact is that, one of the myriad reasons we moved, was the family in one of the privately owned houses opposite ours, were Ghanians. The mother (I don't know the situation re the father) was a Paediatrician, and worked at Guys - she would often remain in town during the week. Her Son and a lodger (the father of the lodger was a High Court Judge in Ghana) were teenagers and left to their own devices during the week.

There would be a constant stream of souped up but clapped out cars pulling up to that house at all hours during the week, music blearing at all hours. Can't imagine what for, can you?????

Anyway, it turns out that the lodger was studying law (or was supposed to be), and was only over on a visa and the terms were that he needed to pass his exams and get a job in order to remain over here.

He failed, then failed re-takes. His last chance - re-taking a final time he failed again, but neglected to let his landlord know (he knew she would tell his father - the judge).

Anyway, she did find out, he found out she had found out, so he murdered her.

Meanwhile, while on my way to a meeting at work, I get a phone-call from the wife. In a terrible state she was. She'd just made a start on clearing out the garage (we were trying to move at that point, such was the untenable situation) when the Son of the now dead mother had finally dragged himself out of bed and found his mum covered in blood in her car as she had attempted to head off for work.

My wife, without thinking, ran over to assist (despite the fact that these individuals had contributed to making our lives a living hell) as the Son was trying to call an ambulance but was too busy shouting abuse down the line. So, she grabs the phone, and gets stuck in, helping drag the obviously dead multiple stabbed (not light) mother out the car, dealing with the ambulance people on the phone etc......

Long and short of it is, that it is not my fault they happened to be black, or that most of the dertritus they were selling drugs to were also black (oh yes, they were dealers). That just happens to be a fact.

To this day, my wife has panic attacks if she sees blood or crime scenes on the telly, maybe she should have minded her own business.

So the black thing wont wash with me I am afraid. It is very easy to use the 'race card', and this is where the police have to tread on eggshells.

And yes, does it show that I have little sympathy for common criminals and the scum of society who care not for anyone else but themselves?

Christ, that's terrible.

I think the problem is that people treat black people differently. Not always in a bad way mind you, but sometimes just differently. We need to stop treating people differently because their skin is a different colour and look at who they are....

Fact is scum/chavs/whatever come in all colours, we had a family move in up the street in the last year with loads of kids and they have NO respect for anyone elses property or their personal space. They happily play in the front yards of the people living in the small old people's complex, they kick their football around (and into) people's cars, ride their bikes into Caroline's car....... They've got some really young kids maybe 3 or 4 years old which play right next to the road and they have NO road sense at all :mark: Problem is, do you say something and risk them taking it badly?