Why did Williams sack Thierry Boutsen rather than Patrese after 1990?

[rjbetty]

Seems that Boutsen was way the better performer. He also won 2 races in 1989 compared to Paterse's 0! Maybe it was because Williams wanted a weaker team-mate to appease Mansell?

[D-Type]

There wasn't that much between Boutsen and Patrese.

If you compare their relative performances in 1989 (Boutsen first) we get:
Wins: 2-0
Qualifying: 4-12
Races where they both finished: 4-2
Championship points: 37-40

Looking at their whole career performances, it's difficult to get any meaningful comparison as Patrese's career was so much longer, but here's the stats (Boutsen first):
Years: 11-17
Races: 163-256
Points: 132-281
Poles: 1-8
FL: 1-13
Wins: 3-6
2nd: 2-17
3rd: 10-14

However, I don't think the decision for 1990 was solely down to how Williams viewed there two drivers. Mansell would have expected to come to Williams as Number 1 driver and perhaps Boutsen was not prepared to accept Number 2 status whereas Patrese was.

[FAL]

Wasn't it as simple as one was out of contract at the end of the year and the other wasn't. "W*nker Williams", to give him his much earlier widely used title, didn't miss financial situations like that?

[rjbetty]

[quote="FAL"]Wasn't it as simple as one was out of contract at the end of the year and the other wasn't? [quote]

Ah that must explain it. I didn't know cos I wasn't watching F1 really till 1997. It just seems from the stats that in 1990 Boutsen really outperformed Patrese and I couldn't understand why he would then be dropped but Patrese kept on.

[D-Type]

I've just realised that the comparison I gave was incomplete. Here's a fuller set (Boutsen first)

1989
Wins: 2-0
Qualifying: 4-12
Races where they both finished: 4-2
Championship points: 37-40

1990
Wins: 1-1
Qualifying: 8-8
Races where they both finished: 7-2
Championship points: 34-23

Whole career
Years: 11-17
Races: 163-256
Points: 132-281
Poles: 1-8
FL: 1-13
Wins: 3-6
2nd: 2-17
3rd: 10-14

[djparky]

from memory I don't think that Williams thought that either driver was quite good enough to be No1 (they were both very good no2's)-although the reasons why Patrese stayed escape me at the moment

[Rollo]

The only thing I can find was from "Motor Racing Yearbook" by Chevron publishing which says in the 1989/90 edition.
"Patrese would be joined by Thierry Boutsen (who came from Benetton) for two years"

Bear in mind that this would have been published in March as they do every year; so in March 1990 Boutsen would have sill been driving for Williams. Occam's Razor suggests that Boutsen had a two year contract and it wasn't renewed, because we was either after more money, or Patrese was good enough according to Sir Frank.

[Bruce D]

In the official review video for 1990, Boutsen says he had signed with Ligier (about 3/4 of the way through the season) because they offered him more testing duties and more involvement in developing the car, which he claims was what he wanted and wasn't getting at Williams.

Maybe he had already put 2 and 2 together and worked out that Mansell would be back in Williams in '91 and decided to leave while he could still get a "good" deal rather than wait to get thrown out and lose some good options. Remember Mansell had already said he was retiring at Silverstone in July and I think he started negotiating with Williams and Renault pretty soon after that, so Boutsen just jumped before he was thrown out.

Personally I don't think Mansell dominated Patrese that much in '91, certainly in the first half Patrese had him covered in both qualifying and race situations, it was only from about France onwards that Mansell stepped up and went for it. I have read in places that Patrese never got on with the physical side involved with the active suspension system and Mansell did everything he could to hide his settings.

[keysersoze]

In 1990, Thierry outscored Riccardo but the Italian suffered from his usual lousy luck, while Boutsen had an uncanny way of finding himself in the right place at the right time.

Boutsen's win in the wet at Canada in '89 was superb, but somewhat tempered by the fact that Riccardo, who comfortably outqualified his teammate, had a major aerodynamic failure (loose floor tray) and fell back.

His win in the '89 season finale in the farcical conditions Adelaide was earned, yes, but the horrendous conditions eliminated the frontrunners. Patrese was on the podium in 3rd.

Patrese and Williams had Hungary absolutely dialed in over the years, but IIRC in 1990 Boutsen was on as well and took a narrow win over Senna. It's a shame Riccardo never won at the Hungaroring because he was quite good there.

Overall, I think they were about even, but it seems, from the outside anyway, that RP was favored by Frank and Patrick.

[rjbetty]

Thanks for the answers.
@Bruce Yeah I'm pleased to see Riccardo had the measure of Mansell in '91 till the gizmos came on song and rewarded his bravery (which is to be commended) over Patrese's natural talent.

[ArrowsFA1]

I think, as has been said, that it's simply a case of Boutsen being out of contract at the end of the year and, knowing that Mansell was signed, he 'jumped before he was pushed'.

I always had the feeling that Boutsen wasn't a great fit at Williams whereas Patrese certainly was. Riccardo was always very much a team player, and worked hard with Renault to develop the car/engine combination that was to prove so successful.

[wedge]

When did Mansell announce his 'retirement'?

[rjbetty]

When did Mansell announce his 'retirement'?

British GP 1990 when he retired having been on pole. He announced his retirement but no-one was surprised when he signed for Williams soon after. If only it had been Jean Alesi! He might have won 6 championships in a row maybe... ('92-'97)

[wedge]

I think, as has been said, that it's simply a case of Boutsen being out of contract at the end of the year and, knowing that Mansell was signed, he 'jumped before he was pushed'.

I always had the feeling that Boutsen wasn't a great fit at Williams whereas Patrese certainly was. Riccardo was always very much a team player, and worked hard with Renault to develop the car/engine combination that was to prove so successful.

I seem to remember from Mansell's autobiography that when he first tested for Williams it originally had Boutsen's settings with the suspension too soft. When stiffened to Mansell's liking he was at least a second quicker, IIRC.

When this test took place I cannot remember.

[Bruce D]

I always had the feeling that Boutsen wasn't a great fit at Williams whereas Patrese certainly was.

You're right. Something about that interview with Boutsen I mentioned before always struck me as strange, almost like he was frustrated at Williams, which is very odd given that they had a decent top 6 car at that stage and Ligier didn't have a top 10 car. Maybe he felt, wrongly as it turned out, that he had a greater contribution to the success of Williams than it looked.

[The Black Knight]

British GP 1990 when he retired having been on pole. He announced his retirement but no-one was surprised when he signed for Williams soon after. If only it had been Jean Alesi! He might have won 6 championships in a row maybe... ('92-'97)

Indeed. Jean Alesi, to me, is a guy that showed such huge promise and never delivered. I really felt that he was WDC material. What an underachiever. It's such a shame. He was incredibly quick with incredible reflexes but as the years passed by his speed just seemed to diminish and he became complacent.

[wedge]

Looked up on Wiki and Boutsen was on a two year contract.

Williams and Mansell were talking throughout 1990 but were stalled because Senna was using Williams to renegotiate with McLaren - hence Mansell's 'retirement'.

I know that Patrese had a strong working relationship with Williams (did Boutsen sense this?) but out of interest (Arrows?) how long did Patrese initially sign for Williams?


Indeed. Jean Alesi, to me, is a guy that showed such huge promise and never delivered. I really felt that he was WDC material. What an underachiever. It's such a shame. He was incredibly quick with incredible reflexes but as the years passed by his speed just seemed to diminish and he became complacent.

Except that Alesi was a muppet. There's Motorsport podcast which validates this - Nigel Roebuck doing an impression of Flavio telling Alesi to pit during the 1996 Australian GP and Alesi completely ignoring the message and ran out of fuel! Roebuck says he has the whole recording of the debacle.

[ArrowsFA1]

I know that Patrese had a strong working relationship with Williams (did Boutsen sense this?) but out of interest (Arrows?) how long did Patrese initially sign for Williams?
No idea I'm afraid wedge :dozey:

[wewillbebest]

just Remember Mansell had already said he was retiring at Silverstone in July and I think he started negotiating with Williams and Renault pretty soon after that, so Boutsen just jumped before he was thrown out.

[The Black Knight]

Except that Alesi was a muppet. There's Motorsport podcast which validates this - Nigel Roebuck doing an impression of Flavio telling Alesi to pit during the 1996 Australian GP and Alesi completely ignoring the message and ran out of fuel! Roebuck says he has the whole recording of the debacle.

You said it. He was a muppet. It was such a shame. I always felt that were he coached in the right manner he could have been a WDC once at least.

[gshevlin]

just Remember Mansell had already said he was retiring at Silverstone in July and I think he started negotiating with Williams and Renault pretty soon after that, so Boutsen just jumped before he was thrown out.

The story, as recounted in a motoring magazine after Nigel had gone to Indycars, is that Nigel decided to retire after Silverstone in 1990 because he was being jerked around by Ferrari over equipment. He felt that Alain Prost was being given preferential treatment. He actually had a clause in his 1989 Ferrari contract that made him the #1 driver if Gerhard Berger left the team. When Berger left to join McLaren, Ferrari wanted Alain Prost, but in order to get Prost, they had to pay Mansell a LOT of money to buy out his #1 driver clause. Mansell was supposed to get equal treatment, but did not feel he was getting it.
At the same time...Williams was trying to sign Ayrton Senna away from McLaren. They had already signed Adrian Newey from Leyton House to be chief designer, and were determined to get a top-line driver into the car to satisfy Renault's need for a championship. Williams offered Ayrton a massive amount of $$$, and he actually signed a contract in September 1990 in Frank's private jet in France. The contract, however, had a clause in it stating that either party could nullify the contract before 12 midnight on the same day. Senna told McLaren and Honda that he had signed for Williams, Honda promptly came up with more money, and Senna told Williams he was staying with McLaren and Honda.
So now Williams was a team in need of a replacement driver, Thierry Boutsen having already been told he was not being retained. At the same time there was a driver leaving Ferrari...Mansell duly sold himself to Williams for a lot of money (I bet Nigel knew exactly how much money Williams was going to pay Ayrton, and made sure he was paid most of that). This indirectly led to the infamous 1992 incident where Mansell announced his decision to leave Williams at Monza; Williams was trying to cut his remuneration for 1993 because they felt they had overpaid for him, plus they had some French driver named Prost also under contract for 1993...
The 1991/92 marriage of Mansell and Williams was a marriage of necessity, and the end was perhaps predictable.

[ArrowsFA1]

The whole Mansell joining Williams in 1991 then leaving the following year probably deserves a book to itself!!

I'm not convinced by the 'Mansell as victim' in this saga. Poor old Nigel 'pushed' out of Ferrari by former friend Prost, happily heading for retirement until Williams show that need him so much they offer him all he could ever ask for doesn't entirely ring true, but it's the way Nige tells it.

[wedge]

I'm not convinced by the 'Mansell as victim' in this saga. Poor old Nigel 'pushed' out of Ferrari by former friend Prost, happily heading for retirement until Williams show that need him so much they offer him all he could ever ask for doesn't entirely ring true, but it's the way Nige tells it.

Could you elabortate?

[ArrowsFA1]

Could you elabortate?
Well, I'm not NM's biggest fan to start with so bear that in mind. The whole "the world is against me but I won against all odds" tended to wear a bit thin.

Stepping out of the Ferrari at Silverstone and gathering the press to announce retirement was fairly typical drama and yet fairly soon after Nigel had signed with Williams. Retirement or negotiating ploy? By mid-1990 I'm not so sure Mansell was in demand. Sure he'd been a championship challenger but had come up short and his two years at Ferrari hadn't done much to cement his place among the best drivers. On the other hand Jean Alesi was seen as a rising star and very much in demand by both Wiliams and Ferrari. Perhaps Mansell saw that his time at Ferrari was over and other options limited. Maybe he knew Alesi would be taking his place in 1991, but it would be unlike Mansell to admit that publically hence "retirement".

Having missed the opportunity to sign Alesi Williams didn't exactly have their pick of drivers, but they did have an improving car-engine combination and Adrian Newey who, even then, was highly regarded for his work at Leyton House. Mansell maintains that he had retired but Williams persuaded him to un-retire with an exceptional offer that he simply couldn't turn down. That may all very well be true, but there's no doubt that Williams heading into 1991 were an attractive proposition for any driver so was much persuasion really needed?

The whole departure from Williams in '92 had as much drama as the 1990 retirement. I know Riccardo Patrese signed for Benetton because as far as he knew Mansell/Prost was a done deal and there was certainly a deal there for Mansell at Williams had he wanted it. The speed with which he gave his press conference (at Monza IIRC) announcing he would be leaving, then the Indycar deal announcement made me question the whole 'Mansell pushed out of Williams' version of events that The Sun ran with and which led to 'protests' outside the Williams factory.

Nigel, bless him, does seem to enjoy this picture of him having the world (Prost, Williams) against him but against all odds he battles through (the 'impossible' Williams deal, kicked out as WDC only to bravely head for the US and win there against all odds). There's an element of truth in it but for me he overplays these kind of things which detracts from his very real talent.

[wedge]

Well Mansell is my all time hero and I'm quite happy to concede that he is a complex individual. Certainly enjoys the limelight - still does if his sons', err, talents are anything to go by.

The me against the world thing, well, he had to battle against the odds earlier in his career. Never had enough more nor the right equipment and at Lotus Peter Warr once said "Mansell will never win a race as long as I have a hole up my arse".

Funny that Mansell should say Hamilton is spoilt in F1 Racing magazine. However, racing drivers tend to be selfish individuals. Senna was paid a million dollars per race to stay at McLaren and his approach in 1993 was halfhearted (and yet still won 5 races!). Not long ago I found out Lauda unretired because he wanted to save his airline.

[Bruce D]

On the other hand Jean Alesi was seen as a rising star and very much in demand by both Wiliams and Ferrari. Perhaps Mansell saw that his time at Ferrari was over and other options limited. Maybe he knew Alesi would be taking his place in 1991, but it would be unlike Mansell to admit that publically hence "retirement".

Well when thinking about the sequence of events in the official review video, it's definately a case where everyone and their dog, except maybe McLaren, were jumping at the bit to get Alesi to sign for them. Williams state during the video that they did have a signed legal contract with Alesi for 1991. It obviously wasn't strong enough because by Portugal Alesi had signed with Ferrari, despite apparently having legal contracts with both Williams and Tyrrell, Tyrrell had quickly signed Modena "to avoid any speculation". Thus Williams was sitting with an empty seat and by Japan, 2 races later, Mansell was signed.


kicked out as WDC only to bravely head for the US and win there against all odds
Well he was the first in a line of champions that Williams booted, within 5 years he was followed by Prost and Hill. As for winning in the US "against all odds", I've followed Indycars/Champcar/IRL/whateverthehellitscalledtoday since that 1993 and he went straight to the best sorted chassis, run by the importer of that chassis, with the most powerful engine in the business at the time, yet still only managed 5 wins from 16 races. The next year when Penske and Ilmor got their act together Mansell was nowhere.

[wedge]

Well he was the first in a line of champions that Williams booted, within 5 years he was followed by Prost and Hill. As for winning in the US "against all odds", I've followed Indycars/Champcar/IRL/whateverthehellitscalledtoday since that 1993 and he went straight to the best sorted chassis, run by the importer of that chassis, with the most powerful engine in the business at the time, yet still only managed 5 wins from 16 races. The next year when Penske and Ilmor got their act together Mansell was nowhere.

Mansell had to learn the tracks and learn about oval racing. It took him a while to 'get' short track racing. He crashed in Phoenix in testing and injured his back; cf. Milwaukee and New Hampshire - the latter possibly the greatest race on an oval.

But Penske were still a force to be reckoned with. The built their own chassis and could come up with updates more frequently than being a Lola customer. Not to mention the great strength in depth of the field. You had Raul Boesel, Bobby Rahal, Al Jr threatening race wins.

Penske may have had the dominant car of 1994 but Mansell was out-driving his, just like Montoya would in 2000 when Ganassi switched to the underpowered Toyota engine.

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