Total chaos in f1

[mstillhere]

THe FIA changes the F1 rules againg at the 11th hour not in the middle of the season but in the middle of...............the week end: Red Bull gets 11th-hour boost over blown diffusers - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92941).

I have never seen anything like this. It's war between the F1 teams. Mainly the Renault powered teams (read RB) Vs the Mercedes powered teams (read McLAren). For the other teams they are clueless about what to do.
This a new historic low for the FIA

[Sonic]

What a crock of sh*t! Formula one has just become a laughing stock, and it's all because of this stupid engine freeze!

[Robinho]

that is all rather a mess isn't it. And this was supposed to be something that cleaned things up

[ioan]

Do we need another thread for this after it was already covered in the GP thread? Just asking.

[Mark]

Separate topic; so yes absolutely.

[ioan]

Renault powered teams are allowed to use it for reliability reasons? So have these teams been running EBD's since the engine freeze of 2006? Mercedes engines have been offered a compromise too but it makes you wonder how much of an advantage anybody has been given really. Why not change the regs at the end of the season and be done with it? We could end up seeing Red Bull even further ahead than they have before over all this!! Oh well.


Reading around it looks like the Mercedes powered teams and Ferrari could end up running their cold blowing at 50% out of protest as they did this during FP2 after this decision had been made. We could have half the grid under investigation and the FIA may well be forced to back down unless they want a complete sham on their hands. I guess we'll know soon enough who has been given the biggest advantage.

Have a chill pill and do some reading:

Formula 1 (http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2011/6/12186.html)

Afterwards it might be clearer what is happening.

Having taken 60 minutes of my life to research the situation, here's what I have found:

1. Following the FIA's decision to ban blowing the EBD when the driver is of the throttle Mercedes has asked for a dispensation claiming that they need to fire at least 4 cylinders even when the driver is off the throttle in order to ease the pressure in the crankcase otherwise they would have had reliability problem, with them supplying 3 teams their request was accepted and the limit for hot blowing (please read above link about cold vs hot blowing the exhaust) the exhausts when off throttle was changed from nil to 10%.

2. Renault engines (read that as Renault the manufacturer, so no RBR BS please) have been using up to 90% open throttle when the driver is not actually using the throttle in order to cool the valves on their engines by blowing cold air through it. They have provided data that shows they did it before the EBD has come into play and they could also prove that without this cold blowing the engines would not last the distance. Given that the engine development is frozen Renault can not change this situation and got a dispensation to have 50% throttle to cold blow their exhaust when off throttle.

The way I see all those who asked for a dispensation did receive one from the FIA, who are more or less trapped between this stupid mid season rule changes that most probably was requested also by other teams than just HRT, and the need to allow for dispensation if they don't want to lose several teams on the grid. Serves them well for changing the rules on the go.

The one possible way out of this is to postpone the rule change to next season when the exhaust will have exit above the engine cover anyway.

I wonder what Ferrari thinks about all of this and what card they will play if any.

[Robinho]

very succinct Ioan, and from what i've read that seems to be the case, although i did see something that renault only ran at 45% but that can't be right if they now have dispensation for more than they ran before

[ioan]

very succinct Ioan, and from what i've read that seems to be the case, although i did see something that renault only ran at 45% but that can't be right if they now have dispensation for more than they ran before

As far as I understood Team Renault ran it up to 90% and RBR up to 45%, maybe we will get exact data from the team or from the FIA.

[gloomyDAY]

I laughed so hard when I found out that the Renault engines were given a dispensation to run at 50% off-throttle exhaust blow and RBR only use 45%.

Awesome!

[Robinho]

As far as I understood Team Renault ran it up to 90% and RBR up to 45%, maybe we will get exact data from the team or from the FIA.

OK, so renault will be slower yet RBR actually will improve their blown diffuser by the imposition of rules to outlaw it? i can see why McLaren and Ferrari are a wee bit peeved about the whole thing

[ioan]

OK, so renault will be slower yet RBR actually will improve their blown diffuser by the imposition of rules to outlaw it? i can see why McLaren and Ferrari are a wee bit peeved about the whole thing

I guess RedBull will not use 50% given that they designed the car for 45%.

I am not yet sure where Ferrari stand right now as they didn't make any press release.

For everyone's sake I hope the FIA ditch the rule changes ad everyone continues from where they were 1 month ago.

[steveaki13]

Thats why sitting in the stands, I thought it sounded as if the Red Bull was still using it. I was confused as I didn't know of this development.

[ioan]

Thats why sitting in the stands, I thought it sounded as if the Red Bull was still using it. I was confused as I didn't know of this development.

It is being rumored that everyone used it in FP2.

[steveaki13]

By second practice I was so wrapped up from the rain, I couldn't hear anything. (Well almost)

[AndyRAC]

F1/FiA never seems to learn about changing the rules halfway through a season. Ridiculous - only for safety reasons should this happen. Talk about shooting oneself in the foot. Honestly, I can't be doing with it all....a complete joke.

[jas123f1]

F1/FiA never seems to learn about changing the rules halfway through a season. Ridiculous - only for safety reasons should this happen. Talk about shooting oneself in the foot. Honestly, I can't be doing with it all....a complete joke.

That's it, as it now it's complete mess.
I like Jean Todt but this is too much.. take it easy.. changing the rules halfway through a season is not ok.. What next?

[mstillhere]

I just wonder why it took Mclaren and Renault so long to request their dispensations. The ban had been announced a long time ago and plenty of discussions and talks have been taking place for them to talk about their inability to run their engines without their blower systems. Did they plan all this chaos or we are supposed to beleive they had no idea about the possible problems generated by the ban until when they tested their cars during the two practice sessions today?

[Dr. Krogshöj]

That's it, as it now it's complete mess.
I like Jean Todt but this is too much.. take it easy.. changing the rules halfway through a season is not ok.. What next?

The rules themselves weren't changed; the FIA had to clarify a rule following a request from the Cosworth-powered teams who couldn't figure out anything.

[tfp]

Whydont the other teams just do more research and development to improve their own diffusers enough to match the rbr team? Easier said than done I suppose!

[Hawkmoon]

Something doesn't add up with the Renault situation. If Renault were running at 90% and Red Bull at 45% before the ban then how is it that Renault need to run at 50% after the ban for reliability reasons? If the same engine in the Red Bull has run trouble free at 45% then logic would dictate that Renault could also run trouble free at 45%. I can't see how identical engines, and the rules dictate that they must be identical, have to run at different levels for reliability reasons.

I figure the FIA has two choices. They can either stick to their original plans and tell the teams to deal with it or they can put the change off until 2012. It doesn't take a genius to work out which is the sensible option. Of course the FIA have a third, nonsensical choice which is to have different rules for different engines and common sense be damned!

[mstillhere]

The rules themselves weren't changed; the FIA had to clarify a rule following a request from the Cosworth-powered teams who couldn't figure out anything.

You are actualy right. The RB/Renault exhaust system was not deemed illegal nor legal by the FIA until when someone challenged it's legality. Once that happened then the FIA deemed it illegal and then........50% illegal. But expecting the public at large to know all that, that's way too crazy.

[ioan]

Something doesn't add up with the Renault situation. If Renault were running at 90% and Red Bull at 45% before the ban then how is it that Renault need to run at 50% after the ban for reliability reasons? If the same engine in the Red Bull has run trouble free at 45% then logic would dictate that Renault could also run trouble free at 45%. I can't see how identical engines, and the rules dictate that they must be identical, have to run at different levels for reliability reasons.

The design of the two cars is not the same. What if the engine is under more stress in the Renault? You are oversimplifying things for the sake of it.

[ioan]

The rules themselves weren't changed; the FIA had to clarify a rule following a request from the Cosworth-powered teams who couldn't figure out anything.

Wrong. The rules were changed. Just that you are looking to the wrong rules.
These rule changes impact the engine rules that did not mention previously how much hot or cold blowing through the engine off throttle is allowed, now it is specified and is completely wrong because the FIA are changing the rules on engines while in the same time having imposed a freeze on engine development. Oh well Charlie never went this far in his cognitive process I guess and the teams had him again.

[ioan]

Whydont the other teams just do more research and development to improve their own diffusers enough to match the rbr team? Easier said than done I suppose!

Exactly, it is easier to handicap the competition via FIA then to get themselves up to their level.

[Dave B]

Renault - and by extension RBR - allowed just 10%. Corner off to see Charlie w. Possible protest.

[ioan]

The FIA finally shows that they were only after RBR with the new rule.
Mercedes gets what is needed for their engines to stay 'reliable', Renault doesn't, two tier rules make their way to F1 in the end.
Weight penalties coming next to make the show even 'better'! :D
Next Renault will threaten to leave F1 and the FIA will be the bozos again. Welcome to the circus.

[ioan]

And to add fuel to the fire it turns out that the dispensation asked by Mercedes is not for reliability issues but for 'handling' issues, which makes it even worse as they are practically given a dispensation that gives them a direct competitive advantage over the non Mercedes powered teams.
As a side aspect we are pretty certainly going to have a British driver win the British GP in a British car.

Stay tuned for the next weeks as this will certainly turn out very very messy.

[Mia 01]

It will be messy, yes. But RBR and Seb will be competive still. No worries for me.

[Dave B]

Renault - and by extension RBR - allowed just 10%. Corner off to see Charlie w. Possible protest.

Corner, BTW, is my phone's auto correct of C Horner. Must type slower...

[Dave B]

From Jonathan Noble:

Charlie Whiting has called an Extraordinary Meeting of the Technical Working Group to discuss engine mapping situation. More soon

[ioan]

Yep, they are meeting right now, all of them.
I wonder if common sense will prevail and all changes will be dropped for the sake of everyone, slim chance I know.

FIA summons technical chiefs for urgent meeting amid exhaust rules row - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92958)

[Mia 01]

Yep, they are meeting right now, all of them.
I wonder if common sense will prevail and all changes will be dropped for the sake of everyone, slim chance I know.

FIA summons technical chiefs for urgent meeting amid exhaust rules row - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92958)

Hope so, but ferrari like this cut, so it´s only a tiny hope that sain will prewail.

[ioan]

Common sense died a sure death again today. Mercedes can use their 10% hot blow with retarded ignition as they requested. Renault engines will have to fight the FIA on track this race.
Championship battle is being tinkered with. :\

[Robinho]

all cars running Qually in the same configuration as they ran P3, what that actually means I don't know

[ioan]

all cars running Qually in the same configuration as they ran P3, what that actually means I don't know

Looks like no one knows anymore what exactly is going on.

[Bagwan]

Looks like no one knows anymore what exactly is going on.

The race seems like it will be for who protests officially first .

Do the rules not state they can't change things like this mid-season , except in the case of safety issues ?
Is the best case for reverting to the pre-Valencia formula that it would be dangerous to have an engine blow right in front of someone following ?

[wedge]

Charlie Whiting should go. Bloody daft of him to push the FIA for mid-season rule changes. For a man of his experience he should have known it would open a can of worms.

[ioan]

I guess someone stepped in as now the FIA is ready to backtrack :eek: , if all teams agree:


"The measures which were communicated to the teams this morning by the FIA Technical Department stand for the rest of the weekend," said the FIA in a statement.

"During Saturday morning's Extraordinary Technical Working Group meeting, the members discussed the viability of returning to the pre-Silverstone set-ups and strategies.

"If the teams are in unanimous agreement, the FIA is prepared to adopt this arrangement until the end of the current season."

FIA backtracks on diffuser clampdown if all F1 teams agree - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92980)

I can see a few teams not agreeing, so we are back to square one.

The question is why is that there was no need for all teams to agree in first instance to introduce these stupid changes and now when they created a mess they need all teams to agree in order to revert to something sensible?
Are the FIA playing divide and conquer? Looks like that to me.

[gloomyDAY]

Man, this just makes me laugh!

[driveace]

What an absolute co*k up ,and the losers seem to be Mclaren.
As for RBR and Ferrari ,its NO change,their times being close to the last years times.
Break the rules Mc and as there is SO much confusion about,play ignorance !

[ioan]

What an absolute co*k up ,and the losers seem to be Mclaren.
As for RBR and Ferrari ,its NO change,their times being close to the last years times.
Break the rules Mc and as there is SO much confusion about,play ignorance !

let's just mention that it is McLaren who moaned for the last 2 days and got a dispensation for the Mercedes engines based on some 'handling' issues that might arise otherwise.
So no pity for McLaren as far as I am concerned, they dug their own hole.

[ioan]

Tomorrow morning teams will meet to discuss the switch back to the rules that were used in Valencia.
Apparently all but two teams agreed already to this proposal. Williams (no surprise really) and Sauber (playing Ferrari's game maybe) did not agree yet.

[Cooper_S]

Williams... looking and acting more and more like a novice team... how the mighty have fallen... reminds me of Lotus, sad really... yet they signed up to Renault engines for next year, I love renault to lean on them and put them in their place.

[Dave B]

From Andrew Benson:

Off-throttle blown diffuser meeting ends without agreement, as predicted. What now for races after Silverstone? #BBCF1

[Brown, Jon Brow]

From Andrew Benson:

Off-throttle blown diffuser meeting ends without agreement, as predicted. What now for races after Silverstone? #BBCF1

I thought the rules were set in stone now for the Silverstone weekend?

[ioan]

AUTOSPORT's sources have revealed that Ferrari and the Ferrari-powered Sauber team refused to sign the deal to return to the Valencia specification.

Formula 1 faces continued uncertainty as teams fail to reach agreement in exhaust rules row - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92998)

Who would have thought?! :\
At least now it is obvious who were the driving force behind the changes and who have benefited most from them. Go get them Seb!

PS: Turns out that Williams were not the 2nd team who didn't want to go back to Valencia specs.

[Hawkmoon]

Ioan, Ferrari didn't start this, Cosworth did. The FIA cocked it up and Ferrari are merely looking after their own vested interest no different from Red Bull, McLaren and the others.

The FIA can fix the situation quite simply. I can see no reason to require unanimity from the teams on this issue. The FIA didn't need it to change the rules in the first place so they certainly don't need it to go back again.

[555-04Q2]

THe FIA changes the F1 rules againg at the 11th hour not in the middle of the season but in the middle of...............the week end: Red Bull gets 11th-hour boost over blown diffusers - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92941).

I have never seen anything like this. It's war between the F1 teams. Mainly the Renault powered teams (read RB) Vs the Mercedes powered teams (read McLAren). For the other teams they are clueless about what to do.
This a new historic low for the FIA

Its been like this for well over a decade now :( Too many clueless old men running the show :down: I'm still surprised they manage to find their way to each circuit :p :

[ioan]

Interesting considering how much flack McLaren have got over this.

They deserve it cause it's them who asked for some of the stuff.

Funy to see that McLaren had a crappy week end after making waves on Friday.
Also Sauber had one engine blow 27 laps after they refused going back to the previous rules.

The only winner is Ferrari, and this also only due to RedBull's crappy pit stops for both drivers. Get an effin' coffee machine for your mechanics not to fell asleep Mr. Horner.

[ioan]

Its been like this for well over a decade now :( Too many clueless old men running the show :down: I'm still surprised they manage to find their way to each circuit :p :

They are driven there by their drivers! ;)

[Dave B]

Benson again:

To sighs of relief all round, the off-throttle blowing row is over. Ferrari agree to compromise - blowing allowed again from Germany

[ioan]

Ioan, Ferrari didn't start this, Cosworth did. The FIA cocked it up and Ferrari are merely looking after their own vested interest no different from Red Bull, McLaren and the others.

The FIA can fix the situation quite simply. I can see no reason to require unanimity from the teams on this issue. The FIA didn't need it to change the rules in the first place so they certainly don't need it to go back again.

Ferrari didn't start it, but they sure do keep it like that now when common sense would say to go back to what was fair on everyone (due to the engine development freeze).
Interesting that a Ferrari engine let go today halfway through the race. They might change their stance again soon.

[ioan]

Benson again:

To sighs of relief all round, the off-throttle blowing row is over. Ferrari agree to compromise - blowing allowed again from Germany

One engine that goes and pronto Ferrari agrees too. Funny things happen nowadays in F1.
What exactly does this compromise include?!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

It will be interesting to see how quick the Ferrari will be now when off-throttle blowing is permitted again. They seem to be winning the development race this year.

[Dave B]

Ferrari didn't start it, but they sure do keep it like that now when common sense would say to go back to what was fair on everyone (due to the engine development freeze).
Interesting that a Ferrari engine let go today halfway through the race. They might change their stance again soon.
Suspect the damage on KOB's car after his collision may have been a factor. Possibly. Maybe...

[ioan]

Suspect the damage on KOB's car after his collision may have been a factor. Possibly. Maybe...

You're right, didn't think about that being a possibility.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

One engine that goes and pronto Ferrari agrees too. Funny things happen nowadays in F1.
What exactly does this compromise include?!

I thought the compromise was what we had at Silverstone and then revert back to the Valencia regs at the next round in Germany?

[F1boat]

Renault vs Mercedes intrigues and a Ferrari win. Satisfying :D

[jas123f1]

The Rule has now been applied for the British Grand Prix only.
For subsequent races the regulations be reversed back to the ‘valencia specification’ that permitted blown diffuser.

NICE - hopefully we don't need to see something like that in the future.

Jean Todt is the man ..

[ioan]

Jean Todt is the man ..

Only if he kicks Charlie into retirement.

[Retro Formula 1]

Total cock-up from beginning to end and what's the result? Red Bull still the best car, Ferrari suddenly on par at the top and McLaren hugely disadvantaged. Same chit, different day.

The FIA make a knee-jerk rule change while still doubting if the teams are technically breaking a regulation and then go back again with some caveat about Parc Ferme and engine mapping.

[mstillhere]

Please click on this link. It may shed some light on this issue:

Q & A: FIA on blown diffuser rules - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93074)

[scaliwag]

I believe the FIA have got it ass about face once again, F1 is supposed to be all about technical excellence, but rather than rewarding designer genius (i e) A. Newey with praise for his achievement they spend hours trying to negate his genius by changing the rules half way through the season, you really couldn’t make it up.
Newey designs a winning car within the rules and what do the FIA come up with, we’ll change the rules.
I accept that changing the engine mapping after qualifying was and is against the rules, so the team/teams that did so should be penalised with a points deduction.

Regards scaliwag.

[Retro Formula 1]

I agree but am not even sure that changing the engine mapping is illegal is it? Surely a driver can change maps on the fly.

If it's not in the regs, then the de-facto is you can do it as long as it's within the spirit of the rules and nobody has tried to ban this before.

[mstillhere]

If I recall correctly, after park ferme' nobody can change the mapping settings. During quali they can do what they want with it. But whatever settings are chosen for quali that team will race with them
as well.

Now going back to Ferrari, in GB Ferrari had brought a car that had been totally redesined and reingineered with RB in mind. The change of the rules - not to mention the rain - was not supposed to happen. They dealt with it the best way they could but their racing plan was to show a "new" car with the blown diffusers, etc, etc. In other words a RB +++.

According to Italian media but not only this new version of the 150 is actually so much better than the RB that they actually won the last GP despite the fact that they raced with a car that was not what was supposed to be. In Germany Ferrari feel that they might show - weather conditions permitting - that Ferrari not only caught up with RB but they might actually be a full second faster than the RB. A result that actually went beyond their expectations and it seems pretty much do to new suspension system but not only obvioulsy.
How true all the above is? We are a few days away to find out. :)

[gloomyDAY]

According to Italian media but not only this new version of the 150 is actually so much better than the RB that they actually won the last GP despite the fact that they raced with a car that was not what was supposed to be. In Germany Ferrari feel that they might show - weather conditions permitting - that Ferrari not only caught up with RB but they might actually be a full second faster than the RB. A result that actually went beyond their expectations and it seems pretty much do to new suspension system but not only obvioulsy.
How true all the above is? We are a few days away to find out. :) GTFOutta here!

[mstillhere]

Fat chance ahol.

[ioan]

Now going back to Ferrari, in GB Ferrari had brought a car that had been totally redesined and reingineered with RB in mind...

You mean they copied everything they could from RB, this might explain why they kicked out their technical director.