Round 9 - Toronto (Canada)

[kobefly]

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1668/torontop.png
Round: 9
Circuit: Toronto (1.75 miles)

Friday 8th
10:55 a 11:40 - Free Practice A1
11:40 a 12:10 - Free Practice
14:50 a 15:50 - Free Practice

Saturday 9th
09:00 a 10:00 - Free Practice
12:50 a 14:10 - Qualifying

Sunday 10th
08:40 a 09:10 - Warm Up
14:50 - Race (85 laps)

[SarahFan]

Going to be an interesting weekend for the championship

If Will has a dominating weekend then I think we have a battle all the way to Vegas

If Dario extends his lead I think the championshiP gets decided 2 races prior

[SoCalPVguy]

Track map:

[Marbles]

One of the best, if not the best street course in the world. Seldom, if ever, disappoints. PT has been doing some local radio. Good to hear some promotion.

Now double sided restarts could result in some record making havoc in Turn 3.

We'll see.

[00steven]

Toronto is my favorite street race on the circuit. I love this place!

[Leo Krupe]

Going to be an interesting weekend for the championship

If Will has a dominating weekend then I think we have a battle all the way to Vegas

If Dario extends his lead I think the championshiP gets decided 2 races prior
You may be right, in which case I hope Will dominates! I can't stand when a championship (in any sport) is decided too early. There's no excitement if say, the Cowboys are a shoo-in to win the Super Bowl by the 3rd game of the season; same goes for our racing. What's the point of watching if Ganassi runs away with everything every race?

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Always great passing, always lots of action, great crowd, rich history, PT and Hinch. Everything given for a fantastic weekend, can't wait for it!

[TURN3]

One of the best, if not the best street course in the world. Seldom, if ever, disappoints. PT has been doing some local radio. Good to hear some promotion.

Now double sided restarts could result in some record making havoc in Turn 3.

We'll see.

Turn 3 is crazy on restarts even without double file. Turn 1 is where double file is really going to jumble things up by comparison. Toronto provide lots of opportunity, I just hope PT or Hinch survive the carnage and are players at then end.

[00steven]

I expect Hinchcliffe to run quite well. Maybe a top 5?

[anthonyvop]

Toronto is a great course....then again anything is better than a "Never lift" oval!!!

[TURN3]

Toronto is a great course. I think part of that is due ot the bumps and that there are changing surfaces/various grip levels around the track. Rear tires wear off here to with the abrasive surface. All of this (in part) creates opportunity.

[EagleEye]

This should be a great race. Fantastic fans, great city and good memories too!

It is also refreshing to see informed and smart posts, prior to the race.

[the bro]

What is the difference between Practice 1A and Practice 1B on the Friday? Is one of them for rookies?

[Anubis]

Always loved watching this race, regardless of who was the sanctioning it. On my list of races to get to should I ever get myself that side of the pond.

[vintage]

What is the difference between Practice 1A and Practice 1B on the Friday? Is one of them for rookies?

1A is rookies and those drivers outside the top ten. Kind of annoying that Penske still gets to run a car in it because Helio is outside the top ten.

[SarahFan]

Helios earned it....

[Dr. Krogshöj]

I wonder if AFS Racing will be back for the road courses... I hope they are still around. The pit box assignments on indycar.com don't include the #17 however. Carpenter will sit out the two Canadian rounds but PT will be back so we'll have 26 cars again.

[EagleEye]

I wonder if AFS Racing will be back for the road courses... I hope they are still around. The pit box assignments on indycar.com don't include the #17 however. Carpenter will sit out the two Canadian rounds but PT will be back so we'll have 26 cars again.

Peterson is apparently taking AFS to another team, and moving from the Forsythe shop. Looks like another car for Schmidt, but not sure when they will run.

Really looking forward to Toronto, and I have a great feeling about the race. If Servia does not finish in the top 26, I shalll never post again.

[00steven]

Helios earned it....

I'm sure he will take a good car out of the race with an early overly aggresive move.

[bblocker68]

I'm sure he will take a good car out of the race with an early overly aggresive move.

Just as long as it's not Billy Power!

Love Toronto. Best street race as far as the racing is concerned.

[SarahFan]

Is there a race this weekend?

[Pat Wiatrowski]

Is there a race this weekend?

Yes! At Silverstone!

[MrJan]

Happen to be in Toronto on holiday this week seeing relatives and my brother pointed out that it was free Friday yesterday so we went along to see what it was all about. Being from the UK I tend not to pay too much attention to IndyCar etc but it was interesting to see. It was actually the Canadian NASCAR that interested me the msot though, those cars look like pigs to drive and were all tail out everywhere.

Of the IndyCar lot it was clear who was faster, people like Dario and Heilio really stood out as having the edge.

[booger]

Anybody know why Eric Jensen is driving a Lights car this weekend? Does he even have a license? Maybe his ride buyer couldn't come up with the scratch and he decided to drive himself? And, isn't his shop in Toronto? That could be another reason. According to posted times, he's a real stone.

[SarahFan]

Will doing what needs to be done

[SarahFan]

Bourdias p7.... Nice

James Jakes outquals Paul Tracy at Toronto..... wow

[beachbum]

Bourdias p7.... Nice

James Jakes outquals Paul Tracy at Toronto..... wowApparently, Jakes and Simona were the only cars to qualify on blacks. Everyone else was on reds, which makes the times for each of them even more impressive

[SoCalPVguy]

QUALIFICATIONS FINISHED: pardon the crude paste-in ...

SP Car Driver Hometown Car Name Entrant Time Speed
1 12 Will Power Toowoomba, Australia Verizon Team Penske Team Penske 59.5771 106.047
2 9 Scott Dixon Auckland, New Zealand Target Chip Ganassi Racing Target Chip Ganassi Racing 59.6646 105.892
3 10 Dario Franchitti Edinburgh, Scotland Target Chip Ganassi Racing Target Chip Ganassi Racing 59.9000 105.476
4 27 Mike Conway Bromley, England Andretti Autosport Andretti Autosport 59.9326 105.418
5 38 Graham Rahal New Albany, Ohio Service Central Service Central Chip Ganassi Racing 1:00.0463 105.219
6 2 Oriol Servia Pals, Spain Telemundo/Newman Haas Racing Newman/Haas Racing 1:00.3341 104.717
7 19 Sebastien Bourdais Le Mans, France Boy Scouts of America Dale Coyne Racing 59.8239 105.610
8 28 Ryan Hunter-Reay Fort Lauderdale, Fla. Team DHL/Circle K/Sun Drop Citrus Soda Andretti Autosport 59.8715 105.526
9 77 Alex Tagliani Lechanaie, Quebec Bowers & Wilkins/Schmidt Pelfrey Racing Sam Schmidt Motorsports 59.8901 105.493
10 6 Ryan Briscoe Sydney, Australia PPG Automotive Finishes Team Penske Team Penske 59.9020 105.472
11 22 Justin Wilson Sheffield, England Z-Line Designs/Dreyer & Reinbold Dreyer & Reinbold Racing 59.9636 105.364
12 3 Helio Castroneves Sao Paulo, Brazil Penske Truck Rentals Team Penske 1:00.0115 105.280
13 06 James Hinchcliffe (R) Toronto Sprott Newman/Haas Racing Newman/Haas Racing 59.8346 105.591
14 14 Vitor Meira Brasilia, Brazil ABC Supply Co./A.J. Foyt Racing A.J. Foyt Racng 59.9869 105.323
15 34 Sebastian Saavedra (R) Bogata, Colombia Conquest Racing Conquest Racing 59.9389 105.407
16 82 Tony Kanaan Salvador, Brazil GEICO-KV Racing Technology-Lotus KV Racing Technology - Lotus 1:00.0149 105.274
17 78 Simona De Silvestro Thun, Switzerland Nuclear Clean Air Energy/HVM Racing HVM Racing 1:00.0806 105.159
18 59 E.J. Viso Caracas, Venezuela PDVSA-KV Racing Technology-Lotus KV Racing Technology - Lotus 1:00.1191 105.091
19 5 Takuma Sato Tokyo KV Racing Technology - Lotus KV Racing Technology - Lotus 1:00.1003 105.124
20 26 Marco Andretti Nazareth, Pa. Team Dr Pepper Andretti Autosport 1:00.1542 105.030
21 7 Danica Patrick Roscoe, Ill. Team GoDaddy Andretti Autosport 1:00.3438 104.700
22 4 JR Hildebrand (R) Sausalito, Calif. National Guard Panther Racing Panther Racing 1:00.4472 104.521
23 18 James Jakes (R) Leeds, England Acorn Stairlifts Dale Coyne Racing 1:00.6226 104.219
24 8 Paul Tracy Scarborough, Ontario Make A Wish Dragon Racing Sarah Fisher Racing 1:00.4524 104.512
25 83 Charlie Kimball (R) Camarillo, Calif. Levemir and NovoLog Flex Pen Novo Nordisk Chip Ganassi Racing 1:00.6463 104.178
26 24 Ana Beatriz (R) Sao Paulo, Brazil Team Ipiranga/DRR Dreyer & Reinbold Racing 1:00.7917 103.929

[SoCalPVguy]

Generic memo to drivers ...

_____________ (congratulations or condolences) to ________________ (fill in driver's name), ______________ (he or she) did __________ ( great !, the best they could with a dog car, crappy), I am very ___________ (proud of, ambivalent for, pissed off at) them. ___________ (Good luck, eat crud, get out of the leader's way) in the race tomorrow.

[anthonyvop]

Yes! At Silverstone!

Ouch!!!!





Actually the race was today at Limerock.

[Scotty G.]

I'd look for Princess and PT to team up and push each other to the front.

Look for PT to be the "pusher" and Danicker to go all the way to the top!

[Scotty G.]

Toronto is a great course....then again anything is better than a "Never lift" oval!!!

Yes, any course with one place to pass is a kick-ass facility.

[Scotty G.]

If Servia does not finish in the top 26, I shalll never post again.

It was nice knowing you, EE.

[SoCalPVguy]

Final Sunday morning warm up pracice times- Special congratulations to THE Princess for her 26th place (out of 26) placing ... I am SO proud of her,,,,

Rank Car Driver BL Diff. Gap Laps
1 9 Scott Dixon 1:00.255 --.---- --.---- 26
2 12 Will Power 1:00.429 0.1745 0.1745 27
3 10 Dario Franchitti 1:00.635 0.3805 0.2060 23
4 34 Sebastian Saavedra 1:00.809 0.5539 0.1734 17
5 27 Mike Conway 1:00.883 0.6277 0.0738 22
6 28 Ryan Hunter-Reay 1:00.949 0.6942 0.0665 17
7 3 Helio Castroneves 1:00.969 0.7146 0.0204 26
8 22 Justin Wilson 1:00.998 0.7427 0.0281 21
9 19 Sebastien Bourdais 1:01.095 0.8404 0.0977 25
10 6 Ryan Briscoe 1:01.143 0.8877 0.0473 21
11 14 Vitor Meira 1:01.144 0.8886 0.0009 28
12 82 Tony Kanaan 1:01.162 0.9075 0.0189 18
13 77 Alex Tagliani 1:01.354 1.0987 0.1912 17
14 06 James Hinchcliffe 1:01.390 1.1352 0.0365 18
15 2 Oriol Servia 1:01.499 1.2440 0.1090 25
16 8 Paul Tracy 1:01.591 1.3360 0.0920 20
17 83 Charlie Kimball 1:01.597 1.3420 0.0060 17
18 59 EJ Viso 1:01.606 1.3510 0.0090 15
19 24 Ana Beatriz 1:01.667 1.4117 0.0607 24
20 38 Graham Rahal 1:01.795 1.5403 0.1286 21
21 18 James Jakes 1:01.850 1.5951 0.0548 23
22 5 Takuma Sato 1:01.854 1.5992 0.0041 24
23 78 Simona de Silvestro 1:01.883 1.6278 0.0286 23
24 4 JR Hildebrand 1:01.903 1.6476 0.0198 24
25 26 Marco Andretti 1:01.982 1.7275 0.0799 18
26 7 Danica Patrick 1:02.195 1.9403 0.2128 17

[SarahFan]

Clearly she was working on race set-up

[anthonyvop]

Yes, any course with one place to pass is a kick-ass facility.

Any course where it takes SKILL to pass is a kick-ass facility!!!

[SarahFan]

Holy moly .... More folks in the pits etc than in the stands

[Mad_Hatter]

Why is this caution taking so long???

[00steven]

Castroneves and Tracy driving like idiots. What else is new?

[00steven]

It's ashame for Power but, I think he could have gave more room to Dario. It was a racing accident.

[gm99]

Is there any green-flag racing on at all today?

[Mad_Hatter]

Not much...



Sounds like dp doesn't wanna race anymore.

[SarahFan]

Whether it's a racing inciden or not....

To call for a penalty, go green .... Then recind the penalty is a complete BS

[harvick#1]

It's ashame for Power but, I think he could have gave more room to Dario. It was a racing accident.

not really, Dario never had a chance to make the pass, then clipped him. that was 100% Dario, should've been a penalty, this isn't Nascar

[Hoop-98]

Whether it's a racing inciden or not....

To call for a penalty, go green .... Then recind the penalty is a complete BS

TV made a mistake, race control never issued a penalty, Cavin was monitoring Race Control.

rh

[SarahFan]

Timed race?

With this much yellow you have to wonder

[Mad_Hatter]

Absolutely no one should be proud of this race...

[harvick#1]

the IRL should be ashamed of themselves today

[DBell]

Another credibility hit for IndyCar today. They seem to have a hard time holding a street course race without it turning into a crashfest. You would think a field of the "best drivers in the world" could do better.

[00steven]

not really, Dario never had a chance to make the pass, then clipped him. that was 100% Dario, should've been a penalty, this isn't Nascar

Will left the bottom wide open, Dario tried to pass, and Will closed the door and paid the price. Simple as that. It happened about a thousand times today because these guys are way to impatient. Perhaps two wide restarts are a bit too much on such a tight circuit.

[DanicaFan]

All I can say is those restarts are a joke. Bernard better rethink his idea. Im glad this race is over.. Terrible..


Here are the final results..

1. #10 Dario Franchitti
2. #9 Scott Dixon
3. #28 Ryan Hunter-Reay
4. #26 Marco Andretti
5. #14 Vitor Meira
6. #19 Sebastien Bourdais
7. #6 Ryan Briscoe
8. #4 JR Hildebrand
9. #59 EJ Viso
10. #78 Simona De Silvestro
11. #24 Ana Beatriz
12. #2 Oriol Servia
13. #38 Graham Rahal
14. #06 James Hinchcliffe
15. #22 Justin Wilson
16. #8 Paul Tracy
17. #3 Helio Castroneves
18. #18 James Jakes
19. #7 Danica Patrick
20. #5 Takuma Sato
21. #83 Charlie Kimball
22. #27 Mike Conway
23. #77 Alex Tagliani
24. #12 Will Power
25. #34 Sebastian Saavedra
26. #82 Tony Kanaan

[harvick#1]

Will left the bottom wide open, Dario tried to pass, and Will closed the door and paid the price. Simple as that. It happened about a thousand times today because these guys are way to impatient. Perhaps two wide restarts are a bit too much on such a tight circuit.

Dario never really made an attempt to pass, had 1/4 to wing of his car inside coming off the corner and was out of position and on the outside for the next turn anyway. its a shame the man leading the points (who critizies everything about dirty driving and other safety, has won 2 races in a dirty and unsafe matter and was never penalized for either) spins the man 2nd in points and got away free from no penalty. as in the booth, how no penalties were handed out in the race was insane.

[SarahFan]

At some point the guy behind has just got to hit his brakes...

[uncommonsense52]

the IRL should be ashamed of themselves today

The IRL is no more.

I saw an exciting race with a lot of hard heads. This is American Open Wheel, not F1. It's grittier, as it should be, as it always has been.

[00steven]

The IRL is no more.

I saw an exciting race with a lot of hard heads. This is American Open Wheel, not F1. It's grittier, as it should be, as it always has been.

Finally a voice of reason.

[00steven]

Dario never really made an attempt to pass, had 1/4 to wing of his car inside coming off the corner and was out of position and on the outside for the next turn anyway. its a shame the man leading the points (who critizies everything about dirty driving and other safety, has won 2 races in a dirty and unsafe matter and was never penalized for either) spins the man 2nd in points and got away free from no penalty. as in the booth, how no penalties were handed out in the race was insane.

It's a product of the racing. Dario isn't a dirty racer and I guess I don't really see how he has raced in an unsafe manner. It's ashame there were so many accidents but, guys don't wait around anymore. I guess that's why it's called racing.

[harvick#1]

there is a difference between "racing" and "demo derby" from what we saw today, this is not a professional run racing series

[numanoid]

It's a product of the racing. Dario isn't a dirty racer and I guess I don't really see how he has raced in an unsafe manner. It's a shame there were so many accidents but, guys don't wait around anymore. I guess that's why it's called racing.

I agree that Dario is not a dirty racer, but he was clearly in the wrong here. He even admitted it was more his fault than Will's. If a driver takes a wide line when challenged (which is the racing rules) there needs to be an attempted pass to hold the outside line. There clearly was NOT a pass attempt in this case. Dario went in hot when he saw an opening and saw he was way too late to make anything come of it. Power looked for the pass but didn't see it, so he resumed his normal line. Dario made a mistake and should have braked hard to avoid contact and would have likely lost a position in doing so. That said, Will should have played it safe and kept his wide line. He would have had a great jump out of the corner and would have shut Dario down.

As for the double file restarts, the drivers caused the carnage. We saw a clean turn one on the start so we know double file starts and restarts are possible even on such a narrow track. Only towards the end of the race, with the top 10 all bunched up on the restart did the drivers start drooling over position. 7th place saw 5th place with 25 laps to go and could not resit the urge to go in hot. The drivers caused the problems by going too hard and they should be criticized and not the rule.

What in the world is up with Helio this season? As one of my favorites, it's killing me to see him cause so much havoc. It's like he was possessed by Viso or Sato.

The most unforgivable incidents were the hits from behind from Sato and Tags. Didn't Tracy get hit from behind as well?

Apparently the Indycar drivers twitter feed is going nuts right now. I'm going to head over and check it out.

[SarahFan]

Seems to me by applying foot to brake pedal contact would have been avoided

[00steven]

Seems to me by applying foot to brake pedal contact would have been avoided

When you see a hole open up you have to take it. Riding behind people all day isn't how you win races. Will opened the lane, Dario looked, Will blocked and got turned. It was a racing accident, that certainly didn't deserve a penalty.

[SarahFan]

When you see a hole open up you have to take it. Riding behind people all day isn't how you win races. Will opened the lane, Dario looked, Will blocked and got turned. It was a racing accident, that certainly didn't deserve a penalty.

Do you think Dario could have avoided the cOntact

Yes or no?

[uncommonsense52]

Will's Twitter is worth a read right now...

Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/12WillPower)

[Leo Krupe]

I'm firmly in the anti-Dario camp on this one. I believe it was completely Dario's fault, and he should've been penalized. The fact that he was given a penalty, then it was immediately taken away was complete bs on the part of race control.

Two other things about this race: I agree with everything positive everyone's said about Dan Wheldon in the booth: he's knowledgeable, quick to give his opinion, and exciting. My only downside, and this is just me, but I don't like how high-pitched his voice is. His enthusiasm is infectious, but he'd be a lot more pleasant to listen to if only he had a deeper voice. Other than that, he's great in the booth.

Second, I think it was Wheldon, but I could be wrong, but calling PT "the master of sideways" was brilliant.

I really enjoyed the aggressiveness of all the drivers, but Dario needs to be penalized when he pulls garbage like that.

[Marbles]

the IRL should be ashamed of themselves today

I understand. You're upset they don't have a "grin, what, chekurred finish". That way we'd still be watching.

If you're going to penalize Dario, you're going to have to penalize everyone else for doing what he did. Both before and after he did it.

The refs were at least consistent. They kept their whistles in their pocket and I got to confess, it's easier to stomach the calls they don't make than the ones they do make.

Mr. Power, after witnessing you're post race celebration in Texas I'd be careful about throwing that word "****er" around the way you do. You're precious, we know.

They use to get around this track a bit better than they do now... hmmmm... can't for the life of me think of what the difference could be. Something's narrower or... thinner, I think. Maybe the equipment they use is just too damn cheap to worry about wadding up?

I think the only people who missed RHR's front wing change were the folks doing the broadcast. YES, HE CHANGED IS WING!

Grand effort by Rahal and RHR.

Marco, sorry, but no credit for your finish. It's not so much that you took out a whack of cars out on a restart. It's the way you accept blame for it. Like you have no conscience. And if anyone should be slapped for the shades they wear, it's you. Do you get Danica's rejects? Slapped silly!

[SarahFan]

I think part Of the problem in turn 3 is the new blocking rule...doesn't the lead car have to move to track left upon entrance?..... Quick allows the following car to move under entering the turn?

[00steven]

Do you think Dario could have avoided the cOntact

Yes or no?

Yes... I think Will could have as well.

[markabilly]

not really, Dario never had a chance to make the pass, then clipped him. that was 100% Dario, should've been a penalty, this isn't Nascar

Yes. No question. While later there were comparisons with Hunter Reay's contact with Rahal, that was different. Hunter stayed tight, real tight with the wall, and rahal moved over into him.

Dario made contact after the apex, by moving into Power, and did not stay tight against the wall. If he stayed tight, no contact. It looked planned, very planned to do the love tap.

got to wonder about little Al.......oh well. :rolleyes:

[SarahFan]

Will did not block
Will was on the racing line
Will was 95% in front

[hondacom]

Not a bad race considering the carnage. But I think little Al has outlived his usefulness. Withdrawing a penalty was a joke wether Dario deserved it or not. Race officials looked stupid doing that.

[Sateryn76]

Not a bad race considering the carnage. But I think little Al has outlived his usefulness. Withdrawing a penalty was a joke wether Dario deserved it or not. Race officials looked stupid doing that.

He denied issuing a penalty in the after interview. He said that, if they had penalized DF, they would have had to issue a penalty on the TK accident at the beginning, and several others throughout the race.

[Adamfree]

I just saw Penske on WindBag Tunnel and he said "we heard over the headphones that Race Direction was going to penalize Dario." So.... and when you take that with the idiotic, double talking drek that Unser Jr. spewed on the Race Broadcast I am sceptical. On another note while not a huge SeaBass fan he was going pretty darn fine today. It was cool to see him going well.

[RJL25]

Will's Twitter is worth a read right now...

Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/12WillPower)

Interesting that he called Tag a ****er on tv after they just shared a meal together recently at each others house!

Obviously Will's comments today are out of pure frustration, he feels he has basically been taken out of the championship by Franchitti.

Fact is Dario does whinge a hell of a lot about other drivers, but is a long way from perfect himself. The fact he didn't get penalised by Indycar for smashing into Briscoe's tyre during a pitstop a few weeks ago just goes to show how much the squeaky wheel (chip ganassi) gets the oil.

[jackmart]

Did Dixon really say something negative about Graham? Someone told Graham via twitter that he did but I found his post-race interview and didn't see anything. Is this true? I can't see Dixon doing that to his own teammate

[Hoop-98]

http://blogs.indystar.com/racingexpe...nd-in-toronto/

" Oh, I thought the same thing, and I wrote that last night. Let me explain the penalty (or no penalty) as I heard it. I was sitting next to an IndyCar official in the media center at the time of Franchitti’s contact with Power, and the official’s radio was monitoring everything transmitted from the chief steward, who says all sorts of things during the race from penalties to arranging the double-file restarts to getting cars in the right order. So when Dario hit Will there was an obvious expectation that there could be a penalty, so we were listening intently. Nothing was ever said. We kept listening, and nothing came. Then Bob Jenkins said on TV that a penalty had been called. We were shocked. “Where did that come from?” we said. We stayed glued to the radio, and nothing came. Then it began to play out. I have no idea where the information came from, but Chip Ganassi later said he wasn’t told anything from IndyCar and Scott Dixon said he heard it from his team, not IndyCar. Al Unser Jr., who is in race control and is part of the review team, said no penalty was issued, and that’s consistent with the fact Marco Andretti, Ryan Briscoe and Ryan Hunter-Reay weren’t penalized for similar situations."
rh

[Mark in Oshawa]

Hoop, the question is though, not was their a penalty called, but SHOULD there have been one. Yes.....there should have.

First off, I had a great day Saturday at the track. Watched the Stockcar guys drive a nice clean race for the most part. For them, that was clean. Only one pile up in 3 2 laps in is clean. Then I stay home yesterday and watch the Indycars and see a wreckfest. Only guy happy with this one besides the Ganassi crowd and DF is the Dallara guy who is selling wings by the dozen.

This business of fault has to be taken in the context of traditional racing rules on passing. Yes, I know the IRL has a no blocking policy entering a corner....but that really doesn't supercede the way all of these guys were taught to race. On a road course, at some point, there is a point where realisitically you have one line through the corner. To get people single file for that, the passing rule was simple, if you can get your nose up to the other's guys door, or in this case mirrors, halfway up the car, then you can take the corner from him. Dario wasn't that close. Will took the wide way around all the way through 3 and was starting up the hill to 4 and 5 and Dario had no more than a wing up beside the wheel. Pretty simple. In 90 % of the series I have worked for as an official, that would be a penalty. Avoidable contact. Listen, Dario was NOT going to make that pass on the outside of 4 and definately not on the outside of 5. If he couldn't get up beside Will in 3, he wasn't going to complete the pass, so back the hell off. The IRL doesn't throw penalties on this sort of stuff because what we saw yesterday because 1)They had a great spectacle with lots of action so why discourage it and 2) it goes with the idea of letting drivers decide things on track.

But for me, and for most logical people, yesterday was interesting, but I wouldn't want to see it as an example of how these guys race. They all looked like ****ers. When PT's chrome horn was not the story, it is proof positive that things are out of hand. Briscoe started it, and they all followed one after the other punting people coming up the hill out of 3 and into 4. PT trying to take Hinch on the outside of 5. Like how well did THAT work? Call a penalty on Briscoe for being a putz in 3, and the rest of that crap isn't happening.

It was unpredictable stuff and you never knew where your driver was going to end up but a lot really good drives were spiked on the chorme horn of guys being bone heads. Tags on Power, Briscoe, Dario on Power, Hell, even Danica got her nose dirty and did a 2 for one take out. Nicely done!! Took no skill at all to take everyone out eh Danica?

Shameful racing...but it made for great TV on a temporarly basis.

For me, Graham Rahal did a fabulous job.....and deserved better than he got...and he was the only guy I saw yesterday that didn't seem to get near anyone....

[Chris R]

We want racing then when they race hard we want penalties.... If there are any penalties to be issued it is for designing a track with no room to work.... All of the incidents I saw could have been avoided by either driver - but then we all criticize Danica for "playing it safe" on a regular basis.... If we want them to race this is what you get sometimes - happens in all series occasionally... To me, the real fault is with the circuit design - street courses are fine - but they need to have a minimum of say 5-7 GOOD passing opportunities.. If you only get one or two chances to pass you are going to do things that make accidents happen when they do not work.....

As for the Power/Franchitti accident - it looked to me like Dario was as tight in as you get and Power "moved down" - but it is not like he had many options either - i think it as pretty close to 50-50. Same goes for Rahal and Hunter Reay... If these guys want to be pissed (they should be) - aim it at the course more or less behind closed doors not each other - when they b***h at each other like this they sound like whiny pretty boys more than race car drivers...

[Mark in Oshawa]

We want racing then when they race hard we want penalties.... If there are any penalties to be issued it is for designing a track with no room to work.... All of the incidents I saw could have been avoided by either driver - but then we all criticize Danica for "playing it safe" on a regular basis.... If we want them to race this is what you get sometimes - happens in all series occasionally... To me, the real fault is with the circuit design - street courses are fine - but they need to have a minimum of say 5-7 GOOD passing opportunities.. If you only get one or two chances to pass you are going to do things that make accidents happen when they do not work........

Design a street course with 5 to 7 passing places? Right...how long is this sucker? 5 miles? At Toronto, cars can pass going into 1, into 3, into 5 (as we saw yesterday more than once) and into 8 in the past. That's 4....Races have been held in the past at Toronto that had passing and were not wreckfests. It can be done...it has been done. It isn't supposed to be easy to pass people...it requires SKILL.



As for the Power/Franchitti accident - it looked to me like Dario was as tight in as you get and Power "moved down" - but it is not like he had many options either - i think it as pretty close to 50-50. Same goes for Rahal and Hunter Reay... If these guys want to be pissed (they should be) - aim it at the course more or less behind closed doors not each other - when they b***h at each other like this they sound like whiny pretty boys more than race car drivers... Dario had an option...breath on the throttle and give way. He didn't complete the pass going into 3. He sure as hell wasn't going to pass Will going up the hill on the outside of 4 or 5. Ask Paul Tracy what happens when you do that with Hinch...and he was BESIDE Hinch.

[SarahFan]

Mark....

I mentioned it earlier.... But didn't Indycar change the rule about blocking and how/where the lead car must enter the corner

[kobefly]

IndyCar 2011 - Drivers Standings
1) Dario Franchitti 353 pts ()
2) Will Power 298 pts (-55)
3) Scott Dixon 270 pts (-83)
4) Oriol Servia 234 pts (-119)
5) Tony Kanaan 221 pts (-132)
6) Ryan Briscoe 219 pts (-134)
7) Marco Andretti 216 pts (-137)
8) Graham Rahal 208 pts (-145)
9) JR Hildebrand 193 pts (-160)
10) Alex Tagliani 173 pts (-180)
11) Danica Patrick 173 pts (-180)
12) Helio Castroneves 172 pts (-181)
13) Vitor Meira 171 pts (-182)
14) Takuma Sato 167 pts (-186)
15) James Hinchcliffe 158 pts (-195)
16) Mike Conway 156 pts (-197)
17) Justin Wilson 153 pts (-200)
18) Ryan Hunter-Reay 154 pts (-199)
19) Simona de Silvestro 137 pts (-216)
20) E.J. Viso 135 pts (-218)
21) Charlie Kimball 129 pts (-224)
22) Ana Beatriz 111 pts (-242)
23) Sebastian Saavedra 106 pts (-247)
24) James Jakes 102 pts (-251)
25) Sebastien Bourdais 72 pts (-281)
26) Ed Carpenter 59 pts (-294)
27) Raphael Matos 67 pts (-286)
28) Dan Wheldon 59 pts (-294)
29) Paul Tracy 41 pts (-312)
30) Alex Lloyd 58 pts (-295)
31) Bertrand Baguette 30 pts (-323)
32) Tomas Sheckter 28 pts (-325)
33) Jay Howard 27 pts (-326)
34) Davey Hamilton 26 pts (-327)
35) Simon Pagenaud 24 pts (-329)
36) Towsend Bell 21 pts (-332)
37) Buddy Rice 20 pts (-333)
38) John Andretti 16 pts (-337)
39) Pippa Mann 15 pts (-338)
40) Wade Cunningham 10 pts (-343)

[Hoop-98]

Mark....

I mentioned it earlier.... But didn't Indycar change the rule about blocking and how/where the lead car must enter the corner

Yep Cotman brought the Champcar rule over with him.

[Chris R]

ok, perhaps I was a little optimistic with "5-7" passing opportunities :p - I was just picking a number from thin air :confused: and both Mark's and Starter's points are well taken... I do think they need to design courses with a bit more room to allow for room to make mistakes without causing carnage.... the less good passing opportunities the more likely you are to have people taking risks that are unlikely to pay off.....

Overall, I am mostly concerned that there is a pretty big call to penalize when many ask consistently for hard racing... If you want hard racing you have to allow for a certain amount of self regulation by the drivers and teams otherwise they are always trying to guess/remember what is allowable.....

[gm99]

Did Dixon really say something negative about Graham? Someone told Graham via twitter that he did but I found his post-race interview and didn't see anything. Is this true? I can't see Dixon doing that to his own teammate

Recriminations rage on after Toronto | Page 3 | IndyCar News | Jul 2011 | Crash.Net (http://www.crash.net/indycar/news/171134/3/recriminations_rage_on_after_toronto.html)


But relations even seemed strained within the extended Ganassi family, with Dixon not taking too kindly to the upstart Rahal getting in the way of the serious business, calling the young American driver "a pain in the ass" and adding that Rahal "got his just desserts" when Hunter-Reay spun him out.

"I was alongside [Rahal] going down the back straight and then the kink comes and he just comes right across," said Dixon of an earlier incident that had aggrieved him. "If I didn't brake, it would have been a massive crash."

[DanicaFan]

Not sure if I agreed with all of Power's comments but when he said "****er", I laughed. Funny as heck. Turn 3 was horrible for passing. That was where all the incidents happened. Bad corner.

Oh, and why is ****er edited out, its not a curse word ? :confused:

[DanicaFan]

I have to give a shout out to Marco Andretti and Ryan Hunter-Reay for a good race. They ran good. Marco goes from 20th to 4th. Another good run for him. His team is getting some good momentum for the 2nd half of the season.

[Anubis]

Not sure if I agreed with all of Power's comments but when he said "****er", I laughed. Funny as heck. Turn 3 was horrible for passing. That was where all the incidents happened. Bad corner.

Oh, and why is ****er edited out, its not a curse word ? :confused:

I think it's safe to assume Power meant it in its more traditional British sense...

ETA - especially having just read his Twitter account :)

[Hoop-98]

Hoop, the question is though, not was their a penalty called, but SHOULD there have been one. Yes.....there should have.
.

And that debate could go on forever without resolution, I was responding to the "rescinders"
Who's fault it was on a forum is a futile discussion :)

[I am evil Homer]

Once again it seems like major brain fade for some drivers and their inability to drive a road course. These people are allegedly professional race drivers but you wouldn't know it the way they act on a road course.

[downtowndeco]

To be fair many of these street circuits are much "tighter" than anything any other OW series races on, the cars are closer together speed wise (increasing the opportunities for close racing vs having the field just follow one another based on qualifying order like F1) and the series has more of a "take the gloves off lets go racing" attitude than any other OW series. JMHO. Yeah it was a messy race. It was also entertaining & the best car/driver combo won, which means in the end it all shook out the way it was supposed to.



Once again it seems like major brain fade for some drivers and their inability to drive a road course. These people are allegedly professional race drivers but you wouldn't know it the way they act on a road course.

[DanicaFan]

Yeah, I watched some of that F1 race. It just doesnt compare to IndyCar racing. IndyCars are much more exciting.

[00steven]

Yeah, I watched some of that F1 race. It just doesnt compare to IndyCar racing. IndyCars are much more exciting.

I like F1, but for once I agree with you.

[harvick#1]

Yeah, I watched some of that F1 race. It just doesnt compare to IndyCar racing. IndyCars are much more exciting.

:s nore: there are a lot of Road Courses that produce great racing, judging F1 when they race at Valencia is irrelevant. F1 has professional drivers, IRL has about 5 actual professionals and 25 Amateurs

[Chris R]

To be fair many of these street circuits are much "tighter" than anything any other OW series races on, the cars are closer together speed wise (increasing the opportunities for close racing vs having the field just follow one another based on qualifying order like F1) and the series has more of a "take the gloves off lets go racing" attitude than any other OW series. JMHO. Yeah it was a messy race. It was also entertaining & the best car/driver combo won, which means in the end it all shook out the way it was supposed to.

it is not often I see things by your point of view - but you are right on the money with this one.....

[Chris R]

:s nore: there are a lot of Road Courses that produce great racing, judging F1 when they race at Valencia is irrelevant. F1 has professional drivers, IRL has about 5 actual professionals and 25 Amateurs

I do not think that is a completely accurate assessment..... There are some pretty weak drivers in f-1 and there are more than 5 good drivers in Indycar..... I would not argue that F1 has a stronger field - but it is not as lop sided as you suggest.....

[00steven]

I do not think that is a completely accurate assessment..... There are some pretty weak drivers in f-1 and there are more than 5 good drivers in Indycar..... I would not argue that F1 has a stronger field - but it is not as lop sided as you suggest.....

Very good point.

[anthonyvop]

Yeah, I watched some of that F1 race. It just doesnt compare to IndyCar racing. IndyCars are much more exciting.

I am curious but why?

[Anubis]

Difficult to say what's more exciting at the moment really. F1 has been good for the last few seasons, Valencia aside, but if anything the new tyres and DRS have now made passing TOO easy, given the huge speed differentials it is throwing up. The excitement feels forced. Toronto may have seen some comedy driving, but I think the series as a whole has more HONEST racing than F1. Look at Webber being called off from racing Vettel for second at the weekend. I must admit I've enjoyed the post-Toronto Twitter back and forth hugely, which is something you'd never see in F1, given how PR managed the whole thing is. I know Hamilton has been outspoken lately, but look at the row that caused! Just hope the online feuds don't spilll over into on-track feuds a la NASCAR.

[wedge]

Yeah, I watched some of that F1 race. It just doesnt compare to IndyCar racing. IndyCars are much more exciting.

Wait till we go to Mid Ohio

[wedge]

They use to get around this track a bit better than they do now... hmmmm... can't for the life of me think of what the difference could be. Something's narrower or... thinner, I think. Maybe the equipment they use is just too damn cheap to worry about wadding up?

:up:

Amen, brother

[DanicaFan]

I am curious but why?

Why I watched F1 or why I find Indycar more exciting ? lol

[DanicaFan]

Wait till we go to Mid Ohio

I will be at Mid-Ohio again this year.

[Andrewmcm]

Narrower track perhaps? Judge for yourself - here's the track in 1995 - YouTube - ‪1995 Molson Indy Toronto - Part 3‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33R3IBWMFEI)

Here's the track now - YouTube - ‪2011 Toronto IZOD IndyCar Series Practice 1 Highlights‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwunasiF8wc)

Is it me or is the entrance to 4 a bit tighter now than it was way back when?

[Jag_Warrior]

:s nore: there are a lot of Road Courses that produce great racing, judging F1 when they race at Valencia is irrelevant. F1 has professional drivers, IRL has about 5 actual professionals and 25 Amateurs

This^^^

There was a time when AOWR could favorably compare itself to F1. But IMO, that time has long since passed. Right now it does well to compare itself to GP2 (which is a VERY exciting spec series to watch, week in and week out). Once the IRL sheds the museum quality spec chassis and engines, I think that will be an important step forward.

Everyone has, and is entitled to their own opinion. But as of right now, I think it takes a giant leap to even get the IRL in the same book, much less on the same page, as Formula One.

I didn't get to watch Toronto live. I think it's scheduled to be recorded on the DVR tomorrow. But from what I've read on this forum, it sounds more like it'll remind me of a bad GP2 race, rather than a good F1 race. I am looking forward to next season though.

Edit: Er... I guess it's taping RIGHT NOW! Heck, let's watch a race!

[Jag_Warrior]

M'kay... there's an hour and forty five minutes of my life that I won't get back. Also, I owe GP2 an apology for the above comparison. But rather than eat crow, I decided to bake a cake. Like it?
http://www.eating.ucdavis.edu/eatdis/bulimia/kathleen/shameful/shameful.jpg

[anthonyvop]

Why I watched F1 or why I find Indycar more exciting ? lol

Neither!!!!

Why do you have such a fanatical devotion to a below average racecar driver with 1 dubious win in 9 years of professional racing, a bad attitude, terrible complexion and the body of a 11 year old Korean Boy?

[zako85]

Another credibility hit for IndyCar today. They seem to have a hard time holding a street course race without it turning into a crashfest. You would think a field of the "best drivers in the world" could do better.


Part of the reason is probably not drivers but the fact that in IndyCar there is relatively little difference in the performance between cars, being effectively a "spec car racing series" right now. So, there is a tendency to stay bunched up. Compare this to Formula 1, where there can be a huge difference between cars, because all chassis and aero setups are unique, and there are 4 different engine suppliers in 2010/2011, resulting in well defined leaders, mid-pack, and back-markers. If there is no crash on the first few corners, there are good chances that the race will be yellow-free. Bunch up Formula 1 drivers like last Sunday in Toronto, and you could see a lot of incidents too.

[zako85]

:s nore: there are a lot of Road Courses that produce great racing, judging F1 when they race at Valencia is irrelevant. F1 has professional drivers, IRL has about 5 actual professionals and 25 Amateurs

You may be right, but in F1 it's an oddity when even 5 have a chance to race each other on reasonably equal terms. The rest of those professional drivers just try to make best of their situation in order to be hopefully offered a chance to drive a relatively fast car. Both are exciting to watch IMO.

[Andrewmcm]

The left after Turn 3 that leads into the corner where Tags dumped Power. I dunno, maybe there are more tyre barriers these days. The camera angles appear to have subtly changed so it's not straightforward to say if anything has changed.

Maybe I need new glasses!

[Jag_Warrior]

You may be right, but in F1 it's an oddity when even 5 have a chance to race each other on reasonably equal terms. The rest of those professional drivers just try to make best of their situation in order to be hopefully offered a chance to drive a relatively fast car. Both are exciting to watch IMO.

I think you have the same thing in F1 that you have in Indy car: a few at the sharp end of the grid who are going for the win, a few in the middle who are going for points and a few at the tail end who are just trying to stay on the lead lap. And sure, you have the Danica types, who just cruise around and wait for other cars to drop out. But even she managed to wad up a lot of carbon fiber the other day. IMO, what was different about the IRL race in Toronto was you had people just flat plowing into one another or chopping noses off cars. That was without a doubt one of the saddest displays of so called "professional racing" that I've seen in many years, in any series. The kids in GP2 are hungry and often desperate. But even there, you don't tend to see the kind of widespread foolishness that took place in Toronto. And when they do get too nutty in GP2, the officials step in and pull out the whipping stick.

I'll repeat what I've said SO many times over the years: FIRE BRIAN BARNHART! He's not fit to oversee a Star Mazda race.

[Chris R]

Robin Miller has a pretty good column on this race at Speed - he sums it up pretty well.....

[DBell]

Yeah, I watched some of that F1 race. It just doesn't compare to IndyCar racing. IndyCars are much more exciting.


That's your opinion and I respect that, but for me the opposite is true. I'm already planning for Austin next year(hope it does happen). I haven't opened my wallet for IndyCar(orCC) since Long Beach '05. I care enough to dvr the races, but not enough to spend the money for travel, hotel, etc to attend an IndyCar. If there was a local race I would go, but I'm not going to spend the kind of money it takes to travel to a race at this time. That wasn't always the case for me.

[00steven]

Robin Miller has a pretty good column on this race at Speed - he sums it up pretty well.....

Yeah, I thought it was good too.

[Marbles]

F1 has professional drivers, IRL has about 5 actual professionals and 25 Amateurs

The irony here, of course, is the headline act at virtually every Indycar Amateur Hour is a Formula One veteran.

[Marbles]

The left after Turn 3 that leads into the corner where Tags dumped Power. I dunno, maybe there are more tyre barriers these days. The camera angles appear to have subtly changed so it's not straightforward to say if anything has changed.


I don't think there is anything wrong, or changed, with Turn 3. I think it's a classic. The slowest sphincter tightener in all of racedom. The difference between now and then is a driver would surrender at the apex of 3 and live to fight another day. Lose the battle but win the war. Incidents, especially the silliness that Hinchcliffe and Tracy attempted was not even thought of. Any idiot could have called the outcome of that one. Why are the drivers so surprised with the results?


I'll repeat what I've said SO many times over the years: FIRE BRIAN BARNHART! He's not fit to oversee a Star Mazda race.

I loved Star Mazda! Unfortunately, It's no longer available on SPEED. And yes, why is Barnhart still around?

[Chris R]

good point and pretty darn funny as well!!


The irony here, of course, is the headline act at virtually every Indycar Amateur Hour is a Formula One veteran.

[Mark in Oshawa]

For those who think the track has changed in Toronto, no, it hasn't. I have been going there on and off for most of the last 25 years, and they haven't altered this area of the track one iota from 3 all the way up to corner 8. The walls look different but are placed in the same spots.

I think Jag's point is valid, it was like a GP2 race gone wrong....and I expected better driving from Dario or Briscoe than I saw. PT, well, he is what he is...the charging bull....but considering how crappy his car was in practice, it was his only way of getting ahead...