What do the US people around here think about this

[ioan]

I read this today and was somehow perplexed:

Bridge Comes to San Francisco With a Made-in-China Label - Yahoo! Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Bridge-Comes-to-San-Francisco-nytimes-295493098.html)

I am pretty sure that in countries like France or Germany something on this scale wouldn't have been accepted.

Also, I'm intrigued about claims that no US company could have done the job.

So, what do you think?

[Garry Walker]

Well, it is san fran - they will always do their best for "diversity".

[Mark]

Making it locally is a luxury. It's either make in China or not at all it seems.

[ioan]

Making it locally is a luxury. It's either make in China or not at all it seems.

In the end the bridge still costs 7.2 billions only 400 millions less then if it was 100% made in US.

If they would have kept that money in the US it would have most probably returned much more then those 400 millions on the long term, and would have helped a few thousand US citizens get a job.

Anyway, where are our US friends? Looks like EU citizens are more interested than them, this might explain why it happened.

[Dave B]

It's not unique to the US. Our high speed trains were made in Japan, and it looks like an order for hundreds of new commuter trains will go to Germany, despite having factories here who weren't even given the opportunity to tender.

[harvick#1]

its no surprise, have you taken a look at how our Government likes to run this country.

Obama, Democrats, and Republicans are so out of touch with reality that they are destroying this country in almost 15 years

[Roamy]

its no surprise, have you taken a look at how our Government likes to run this country.

Obama, Democrats, and Republicans are so out of touch with reality that they are destroying this country in almost 15 years

1. you need to find a gunfighter to run for president
2. you need to kick congress out
3. you need to band all your friends together and make sure you vote properly.

I liked Trump but will gladly settle for Perry.

Now with all that being said look around at all these wimps that we have in this country. This is a huge uphill battle and I am
not so sure we can get it done. May be quite interesting when the middle class decides to take action. And if they don't soon there will be no middle class
But look at the bright side - when all the women are wearing burkas your clothing cost will go down and you won't have to spring for any fu__k me pumps
for the black tie ball.

[Roamy]

BTW to answer the thread. The big money grab is going on right now cuz the rich know we are going under. They will buy anything from anybody if they can get a buck put in their pocket. I would be interested to know the current gold holdings in this country.
And with that I am going to crack a bottle of red, light up a cigar and plan the fishing trip for the 4 of july while mahatmafuk sits around and tries to figure out how to blow us up.

[555-04Q2]

I read this today and was somehow perplexed:

Bridge Comes to San Francisco With a Made-in-China Label - Yahoo! Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Bridge-Comes-to-San-Francisco-nytimes-295493098.html)

I am pretty sure that in countries like France or Germany something on this scale wouldn't have been accepted.

Also, I'm intrigued about claims that no US company could have done the job.

So, what do you think?

Nothing new. A lot of the products bought throughout the world with Made In Germany, Made In Italy etc stamped on the box are actually made in China and put in a box that says otherwise. Another trick is to say Product Of USA instead of Made In USA for example. The world cannot match the Chinese for price and technologically, they can now make 99% of what the rest of the world is capable of. To remain competitive, you have to go to China, or offer a product that the Chinese can't make yet.

[Malbec]

In the end the bridge still costs 7.2 billions only 400 millions less then if it was 100% made in US.

If they would have kept that money in the US it would have most probably returned much more then those 400 millions on the long term, and would have helped a few thousand US citizens get a job.

Anyway, where are our US friends? Looks like EU citizens are more interested than them, this might explain why it happened.

Reading your link the high value added stuff like designing the bridge from both an architectural and engineering standpoint was still done in America, and the assembly of the bridge will still be done by Americans.

Its the low value added stuff that was done in China, actually building the steel bits of the bridge.

You can look at another San Francisco product, the iPhone. The high value added side of the design is all done in the US. The low value added bit of bolting the things together and putting them in boxes is done in China. The bulk of the profits made from the product still go to the US based company, the manufacturing companies like Foxconn make very little profit per unit made.

If Americans don't want manufacturing jobs to go to China they'd better be prepared to work for Chinese rates to compete with them. Don't think you'll find too many Yanks wanting to sweat their guts out for a dollar an hour.

[Eki]

The iphone is an American product by a British designer. We all have a share lol.. :)
And by Nokia technology:

Nokia Wins Apple Patent-License Deal Cash, Settles Lawsuits - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-14/nokia-apple-payments-to-nokia-settle-all-litigation.html)

[Rudy Tamasz]

Offtopic. Just thought it might be curious. I once bought a cooling leg spray for my pregnant wife. It was made in Monaco (or so the label claimed) and cost $20. Never ever in my life I have seen anything else made in Monaco.

Which makes me think, if you can produce hard stuff in Monaco, you can produce it anywhere...

[CaptainRaiden]

Think about it from a business perspective. You could get pretty much the same work done for half the money. I run a small business, which is mostly online, and I have Americans, Britishers, Indians and other Asians applying for proofreading/editing positions. In the end after assessing all of them, I hired some Filipino and Indian editors, because they do pretty much the same job for half the money. This is why outsourcing makes sense for so many businesses everywhere. Software companies can hire two Asian programmers for the salary they'll pay an American, and they'll in the end do a comparable or even better job. As a business owner why the F wouldn't I do that??

Almost all the smartphones and laptops, macbooks, TVs, game consoles etc. are assembled and pretty much produced in China. It's not like they're all falling apart. And that's because they have to conform to certain quality regulations. Only the cheap stuff, which you find in a typical Chinese store is badly made, because well, you pay that much less for it, and that is a consumer choice. Nobody is forced to buy that crap. People who buy these things usually need use-and-throw stuff anyway. Sometimes even the cheap Chinese made stuff turns out to be a million times better than the much more expensive locally made counterpart.

[beachbum]

Well, I guess we will have to send the Statue of Liberty back to France and give up our computers (almost all made in China).

It is a world market. Products and labor come from everywhere.

[schmenke]

Nothing new here.
Structural fabrications have been outsourced to Asian yards for decades now. They have qualified workers and equipment that can fabricate this stuff for a fraction of what it would cost for American unionized labourers to do.

The Bay bridge in Oakland is a pulbicly funded project so tendering to the lowest bidder is mandatory, even if it means outsourcing.

[schmenke]

Reading your link the high value added stuff like designing the bridge from both an architectural and engineering standpoint was still done in America, and the assembly of the bridge will still be done by Americans.

Its the low value added stuff that was done in China, actually building the steel bits of the bridge.

You can look at another San Francisco product, the iPhone. The high value added side of the design is all done in the US. The low value added bit of bolting the things together and putting them in boxes is done in China. The bulk of the profits made from the product still go to the US based company, the manufacturing companies like Foxconn make very little profit per unit made.
....

We're currently doing something similar on the engineering project I'm currently working on. The design is being done completely by Canadian engineers but we've recently outsourced the production of the repetitive piping isometric drawings to Beijing. We call this "high volume engineering" or HVE. We have thousands of these drawings to produce in the next few months and workers in Beijing can pump this stuff out much faster than we can over here. It's both a time and money saver to our client. We're currently paying our Chinese office ~$35.00 per labour hour whereas it would cost over $100.00/hr to do it here.

[Robinho]

Whats the fuss about? Other countries making money off each other? We (UK) built a Cruise Liner many years ago. It sailed, it sank and American film companies made films about it and made lots of money out of it. We also built a bridge and sold it to Arizona called 'London Bridge'. Its fairly ordinary looking but alot of money was paid for it. This was partly due to the fact 'Tower Bridge' was what they thought they were buying... :laugh:

It is now Arizona's second largest tourist attraction now though.. ;)

What's no. 1? Roamy? ;)

[ioan]

Offtopic. Just thought it might be curious. I once bought a cooling leg spray for my pregnant wife. It was made in Monaco (or so the label claimed) and cost $20. Never ever in my life I have seen anything else made in Monaco.

Which makes me think, if you can produce hard stuff in Monaco, you can produce it anywhere...

Was it made by Ratiopharm?

[ioan]

Sometimes even the cheap Chinese made stuff turns out to be a million times better than the much more expensive locally made counterpart.

I am yet to find such thing/stuff.

[ioan]

Whats the fuss about?

The fuss will be obvious the day when 99% of everything will be made in one country that will be cashing in while the others will try to survive starvation.
I know markets do self regulate but what we see now with China is not going to end well for many western countries who nowadays are producing less added value by the day.

[CaptainRaiden]

I am yet to find such thing/stuff.

I bought gym shorts from a Chinese shop, as a use-and-throw replacement, which surprisingly lasted four times longer than the previous Adidas gym shorts bought for four times the money of its Chinese counterpart, going to the same gym, doing the same exercises. Similarly, with a barbecue lighter, I was surprised at how well made and robust it was.

[CaptainRaiden]

The fuss will be obvious the day when 99% of everything will be made in one country that will be cashing in while the others will try to survive starvation.
I know markets do self regulate but what we see now with China is not going to end well for many western countries who nowadays are producing less added value by the day.

And who's fault is that? Certainly not the Chinese. As long as the same service is available for one third of the price, more and more private businesses will go for what makes the most sense, and look for their own benefit, not what is good for their country's economy. It is that country's government's job to put policies in place which makes it attractive for these businesses to stay onshore, not putting huge taxes and almost forcing their hand.

[beachbum]

Sometimes things aren't exactly as they seem. Hershey Foods (the chocolate people) have a factory in Singapore that was to be for the Asian market but the Chinese won't buy any food made there. Where is it sold? Hershey isn't saying.

[ioan]

And who's fault is that? Certainly not the Chinese.

No one implied that.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Was it made by Ratiopharm?

Can't recall, sorry.

[CaptainRaiden]

In other news, China opens the world's longest sea bridge. 42 Kilometers long. :eek:

http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/t_48WatHXtLfhqBISjv89w--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD00NDM7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/Reuters/2011-06-30T113121Z_01_PEK07_RTRIDSP_3_CHINA.jpg

http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/WnhrJMbC5oA5SgwxdcWAMQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD00MTA7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/Reuters/2011-06-30T112657Z_01_PEK08_RTRIDSP_3_CHINA.jpg

http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/Fh6Vxa78sGQjr9I4xfztaA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD00NTA7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/615cbf6092e29b0ef10e6a7067008b39.jpg


I'm sure they can handle tinier puny bridges without much hassle. :p

[Malbec]

I know markets do self regulate but what we see now with China is not going to end well for many western countries who nowadays are producing less added value by the day.

Errr you've got it the other way round. Western countries get to do the high value added stuff, its the Chinese that do the low added value stuff. Manufacturing simply isn't where money is made. Technological development, branding and good design is what really adds value and the Chinese aren't really competitive in those arenas yet, certainly not compared to the West.

Anyway China is at a high point in its development. Thanks to the one child rule they are facing an aging population and their labour is going to hit capacity soon. When that happens labour rates will rise rapidly and they will become less competitive, but by then China will be wealthier and will be (if it isn't already) a huge market for Western companies to sell to. All this paranoia about China destroying the West economically isn't warranted.

[Shifter]

Dylan, I agree.

Not to mention how poisonous it'll be to live in China. Due to scale, China can technically make a lot of money via manufacturing. The wealth, however, isn't shared with the populace, and I think China will eventually have a huge problem on their hands in terms of millions (billions) of poor folks with poor health from living & working in China's industrial areas.

[Malbec]

Dylan, I agree.

Not to mention how poisonous it'll be to live in China. Due to scale, China can technically make a lot of money via manufacturing. The wealth, however, isn't shared with the populace, and I think China will eventually have a huge problem on their hands in terms of millions (billions) of poor folks with poor health from living & working in China's industrial areas.

China is definitely not a particularly pleasant place to live in. I'm sure this will cause problems in the future when people stop caring so much about increasing their material wealth and start looking at other things but I kind of disagree about the Chinese not distributing the wealth.

Ultimately Chinese manufacturing is cheap because they have a large population prepared to work and a high literacy rate that can be taught quickly how to do things. For those millions of workers getting a job in a factory is far better than any other option they used to have and they usually do get paid more than they would have expected in other lines of work. OK they will never become millionaires but they can reasonably expect to attain a quality of life unimaginable for their parents.

I think India has a problem with not distributing wealth with most of their economic boom based in high tech sectors centred around a small number of employees with university level education or beyond. The average Indian who is probably (statistically speaking) illiterate has no chance of getting a good job and can only look forward to a life equal to that of their parents. All that while a well educated Indian who probably already comes from a privileged family anyway can earn an income closer to Western standards with a living standard to match, expanding the gap between rich and poor massively. If there are going to be big social problems I think India will be the place to look at. China would probably only become unstable if the economic expansion becomes seriously unstuck and millions become unemployed, but then the same can be said of many other countries including the US or the UK.

[ioan]

Can't recall, sorry.

I asked because they are based in Monaco.

[ioan]

Errr you've got it the other way round. Western countries get to do the high value added stuff, its the Chinese that do the low added value stuff.

I didn't mention low or high added value products, please read it again, I was talking about the total value added that is being produced in these countries.
And I didn't get it wrong as we are producing less added value and they are producing more with every day that goes by.
And China is certainly planing to produce more and more high value added products in the future as they are not stupid either.

[Malbec]

I didn't mention low or high added value products, please read it again, I was talking about the total value added that is being produced in these countries.
And I didn't get it wrong as we are producing less added value and they are producing more with every day that goes by.

From what I understand of what you wrote it seems like you're saying that an American company should design and manufacture things in the US, not outsource the manufacturing to China.

I understand the sentiment but I am not sure why you would want to reduce the competitiveness of (in this case) American companies by giving them a higher manufacturing cost by refusing to let them move to cheaper countries. I'm also not sure why you would want to punish American consumers by making them pay higher prices, as the makers pass on the lack of savings to the enduser.


And China is certainly planing to produce more and more high value added products in the future as they are not stupid either.

Stupid? No, I think the Chinese economy is probably one of the best run in the world, especially if you include how they've pegged the Yuan to the dollar. For a bunch of Red Book reading Commies they've got an incredible understanding of how capitalism and free international trade works.

And you're right, China WILL produce more high added value products, but by that time they too will have rising manufacturing costs and ironically some of their most advanced brands will probably be looking to move production elsewhere to keep costs low. Given how poor Chinese protection of intellectual rights is I think they will have some time to go before they get a wave of strong desirable brands and innovative products.

[555-04Q2]

And you're right, China WILL produce more high added value products, but by that time they too will have rising manufacturing costs and ironically some of their most advanced brands will probably be looking to move production elsewhere to keep costs low. Given how poor Chinese protection of intellectual rights is I think they will have some time to go before they get a wave of strong desirable brands and innovative products.

We source many components from China, USA, Europe etc. One thing that cannot be ignored is the fact that if you are willing to pay a little extra, the Chinese will make the same quality components that you can get out of Europe, USA etc. You just have to specify it and have an agent there to ensure quality control measures are in place. And those equal quality components are still half the price of the Europeans, Americans etc.

The Chinese build mostly cr@p because that is what the world wants. The world doesn't want goods that are expensive and last forever, the world wants cheap and replaceable. We have become a throw away society and the Chinese are the new caterers in town.

[schmenke]

.... the world wants cheap and replaceable. We have become a throw away society and the Chinese are the new caterers in town.

That about sums it up :mark:

[555-04Q2]

That about sums it up :mark:

Sadly, yup :up:

[ioan]

Agree, that sums it up and it's sad enough that our economical model is such a stupid one based only on consuming crap instead of making expensive but durable products for better a quality life.

[Malbec]

You just have to specify it and have an agent there to ensure quality control measures are in place.

Thats the problem with Chinese suppliers though, if you turn your back on them you don't know what they'll be doing to cut costs. Fisher Price found that out the hard way, so did BMW Motorrad.

[markabilly]

We're currently doing something similar on the engineering project I'm currently working on. The design is being done completely by Canadian engineers but we've recently outsourced the production of the repetitive piping isometric drawings to Beijing. We call this "high volume engineering" or HVE. We have thousands of these drawings to produce in the next few months and workers in Beijing can pump this stuff out much faster than we can over here. It's both a time and money saver to our client. We're currently paying our Chinese office ~$35.00 per labour hour whereas it would cost over $100.00/hr to do it here.


And the employees doing the work are making how much???



Zhenhua put 3,000 employees to work on the project: steel-cutters, welders, polishers and engineers. The company built the main bridge tower, which was shipped in mid-2009, and a total of 28 bridge decks — the massive triangular steel structures that will serve as the roadway platform.
Pan Zhongwang, a 55-year-old steel polisher, is a typical Zhenhua worker. He arrives at 7 a.m. and leaves at 11 p.m., often working seven days a week. He lives in a company dorm and earns about $12 a day.
“It used to be $9 a day, now it’s $12,” he said Wednesday morning, while polishing one of the decks for the new Bay Bridge. “Everything is getting more expensive. They should raise our pay.”

$12 a DAY FOR A 16 HOUR PER DAY OF WORK, 7 DAYS A WEEK....amazing what slave labor can do for a few dollars less. And the ungrateful punk ass is bitching even though he got a raise from 55 cents an hour to 75 cents per hour

People who awarded this contract, should be horsewhipped

[markabilly]

From what I understand of what you wrote it seems like you're saying that an American company should design and manufacture things in the US, not outsource the manufacturing to China.

I understand the sentiment but I am not sure why you would want to reduce the competitiveness of (in this case) American companies by giving them a higher manufacturing cost by refusing to let them move to cheaper countries. I'm also not sure why you would want to punish American consumers by making them pay higher prices, as the makers pass on the lack of savings to the enduser.



Stupid?

And you're right, China WILL produce more high added value products, but by that time they too will have rising manufacturing costs and ironically some of their most advanced brands will probably be looking to move production elsewhere to keep costs low. Given how poor Chinese protection of intellectual rights is I think they will have some time to go before they get a wave of strong desirable brands and innovative products.

Dam right it is stupid.

We are subsidizing the companies that do this, and sooner or later, people like you will not be doing anything but picking the dirt from between your toes.....
but maybe you will be liucky and get a job paying you 75 cents per hour, while working 16 hour days, 7 days a week.....

[schmenke]

And the employees doing the work are making how much???


$12 a DAY FOR A 16 HOUR PER DAY OF WORK, 7 DAYS A WEEK....amazing what slave labor can do for a few dollars less. And the ungrateful punk ass is bitching even though he got a raise from 55 cents an hour to 75 cents per hour

People who awarded this contract, should be horsewhipped

$12.00 per day is a very good salary in China, especially for a labourer. This fellow gets food and lodging to boot.

I've worked a couple of construction jobs in China, and I've never seen anyone work 7:00am to 11:00pm. In fact, many labourers would get at least one day off every couple of weeks. Not unlike the shift work we experience on similar jobs on this side of the pond.

[555-04Q2]

$12.00 per day is a very good salary in China, especially for a labourer. This fellow gets food and lodging to boot.

Indeed. $12 in China buys you a whole lot more than $100 in the USA does.

[ioan]

$12.00 per day is a very good salary in China, especially for a labourer. This fellow gets food and lodging to boot.

I've worked a couple of construction jobs in China, and I've never seen anyone work 7:00am to 11:00pm. In fact, many labourers would get at least one day off every couple of weeks. Not unlike the shift work we experience on similar jobs on this side of the pond.

A day off every couple of weeks, and you call that similar to what happens in the US where you get 2 days off every week?

[Mark in Oshawa]

The Chinese do work harder than us in North America, but only because they want the money and they are paid less. That all said, I suspect as time moves on, that will cease too.