Marco Andretti to Drive Honda F1 Car next week.

[rlenis]

From SpeedTV.

=======================

IndyCar Series “Rookie of the Year” Marco Andretti will get his first experience of a Formula 1 car courtesy of Honda Racing when he joins the team’s test at the Spanish circuit of Jerez next week.

The team has invited Marco to drive its 2006-spec RA106 on Friday, December 15, the final day of its scheduled test, in recognition of the 19-year-old’s achievements in the Honda-powered IndyCar Series this year. Andretti scored a win on the Infineon Raceway road course, and finished second in the Indianapolis 500 at his first attempt.

The son of two-time IndyCar Series championship-winning team owner and former CART champion Michael Andretti, and the grandson of racing legend Mario Andretti is also teammates at Andretti Green Racing with Brazilian Tony Kanaan, who was awarded with a similar “experience” of a Honda F1 car last December, for winning the IndyCar Series crown in 2004.

“I am thrilled that Honda has offered me this incredible opportunity,” Andretti said. “2006 was a fantastic inaugural year for me in the IRL and I look forward to fighting for the championship next season. However, as you would expect of any racing driver, when Honda offered me the chance to drive, I grabbed it with both hands – no hesitation! I can only imagine what an awesome experience this is going to be and I’m just going to take my time and enjoy every moment.”

Former Champ Car and IndyCar driver Gil de Ferran, now Sporting Director for Honda Racing, said, “We are delighted to have Marco join us in Jerez next week for his first run in a Formula 1 car. Marco has had an outstanding first season in the IndyCar Series, making a big impact at such a young age. As part of the extended Honda Racing family, it will be a great pleasure for us to give him the chance of his first experience of Formula 1.”

[grassrootsracer]

This caught me by surprise, but it is definitely a positive. Let's hope that it leads to further involvement with the Honda F1 team, or F1 at all for Marco.

[trumperZ06]

This caught me by surprise, but it is definitely a positive. Let's hope that it leads to further involvement with the Honda F1 team, or F1 at all for Marco.

;) Mario's been "pushing"... attempting to get Marco interest in Formula 1.
Micheal, on the other hand, still has bad memories, tinged with bitterness, from his own experience as a driver in F-1.

I wonder who will win the "tug-of-war" ... between Grandfather & Father...

deciding where Marco will be driving in a year or two.

IMO... Marco has the talent to compete at the F-1 level. I don't think Money is or will be a major consideration. On the other hand, Marco may want to drive against the best open wheel drivers in F-1. This will be an interesting storyline to follow.

:s mokin:

[Hotlavaaaa]

I really hope Mario gets his way. I'd hate to see Marco's talent wasted in the IRL.

[Ranger]

If you don't find Scotty around the paddock much longer, you can bet that Bernard will add some influential weighting to Mario's argument.

[SuperAguri]

A bit like Tony Kanaan last year.

Oh well, this could be interesting.

[Bolton Midnight]

Just hope the skill and talent skipped a generation as Michael certainly had none.

[Giuseppe F1]

Wasnt Wheldon also promised a HondaF1 test for winning the IRL a few years back? Seems hes been overlooked yet great to see Marco in an F1 car - infact, I really wanted to see Marco in GP2 in 2006.

I feel that grandpa will win the Andretti father/grandfather tug-of-love and expect Marco in F1 by 2008/09 hopefully

[trumperZ06]

Just hope the skill and talent skipped a generation as Michael certainly had none.

:dozey: Pffft... do you really think he lacked... "Talent" ?

Michael Andretti was simply screwed over by the FIA, when he drove in Formula 1. Rules were changed... thus not allowing Michael the opportunity to test, become familar with, and sort out the car.

Even Sena, who was his team-mate, said when Michael left the series, that Micheal Andretti was more than fast enough, he didn't get a fair chance in F-1.

:D Do a Google search on Michael Andretti's racing career. He's been VERY SUCCESSFUL... both as a Driver and Owner in professional racing.

:s mokin:

[Bolton Midnight]

:D Do a Google search on Michael Andretti's racing career. He's been VERY SUCCESSFUL... both as a Driver and Owner in professional racing.

:s mokin:


Who needs Google

Michael Andretti - 1993 Results-- Select Season --1993
Date Grandprix Team Winning Time Leader Offset Pos Pts Total
14/03/1993 South African GP McLaren Retirement - Hit Warwick 0 0
28/03/1993 Brazil McLaren Retirement - Accident With Berger 0 0
11/04/1993 European GP McLaren Retirement - Collision With Wendlinger 0 0
25/04/1993 San Marino McLaren Retirement - Spun 0 0
09/05/1993 Spain McLaren 92:27.685 +1 lap 5 2 2
23/05/1993 Monaco McLaren 112:10.947 +2 laps 8 0 2
13/06/1993 Canada McLaren 96:41.822 +3 laps 14 0 2
04/07/1993 France McLaren 98:35.241 +1 lap 6 1 3
11/07/1993 Britain McLaren Retirement - Spun 0 3
25/07/1993 Germany McLaren Retirement - Accident With Berger 0 3
15/08/1993 Hungary McLaren Retirement - Throttle Failure 0 3
29/08/1993 Belgium McLaren 84:32.124 +1 lap 8 0 3
12/09/1993 Italy McLaren 77:7.509 +1 lap 3 4 7

That's terrible, about on a par with that other American great Scott Speed.

Doing well in America doesn't really mean a great deal as IRL/CART/NASCAR etc are all second rate series.

[SuperAguri]

IRL/CART/NASCAR etc are all second rate series.

How can you 'rank' motorsport series?

[Bolton Midnight]

It's quite easy to compare, look at how well someone like Franchitti, C Fittipaldi, Andretti, Zanardi or Blundell do Stateside then compare how they performed in F1 if they even managed to get there that is.

[Roamy]

This is a good move from Honda. Maybe the lap dog will be headed home.

[Bagwan]

Speed is a great name for a race car driver . "Speed , racer" , I suppose .

But , Andretti is a racing name , synonymous with speed .

Entry , with a name like his , will be a given , when he and his family decide he is ready .
This is a sweet thing for Honda , and Bernie will see it as a real road into the US .

In 2000 , at the Indy first race , there was a huge picture of Jacques above the front gates , making the connection to F1 from Indy 500 winner .
You see , to make F1 popular in the States , you need to get Bubba to watch , and identify with a name he recognizes .

The pressure upon his shoulders will be great , though , and could carry right through to Honda , being they would become the de facto "American" team .
And that could sell a whack of cars .


I expect Marco to enter soon , and expect both Button and especially Barrichello to lose sleep over it .
They will need to word any press releases very carefully after this test with Marco , as the regular guys will be listening closely with a name like Andretti in the mix .

The trouble is , that if they were to try to push him into one of the race seats , it would cost money , time , and only increase that pressure , all creating turmoil and reducing the likelyhood of success .

Marco's father is a good example of how good genes can't always get you out from behind the 8-ball .

[Bolton Midnight]

And the hype starts, I'd have thought by now the lesson would have been learnt, wait until he

a) is on the grid
b) scoring points

before building him up into something he's very unlikely to acieve.

[Robinho]

i think this is a good move, i'm very interested to see how he does, i think he can probably develop into a very handy F1 driver, its good to see Honda taking enough interest to offer him a test.

as an asside, whilst Michael Andretti did not have a glittering F1 career there was no doubt he was a very quick driver on his day, and whilst he may never have reached the top of F1 i don't belive he was as bad as his results show, but that there were many other reason for his lack of success. if Marco is given a decent opportunity and applies himself then i think he could do well, maybe even better

whilst it may be difficult to judge how good drivers stateside are up against F1 i think its inwise to pre-judge him as a no-hoper, but equally it would be harsh to lable him the next great american hope in F1 either

the guys giving him the test know a lot more about his capabilities than we do

[bblocker68]

Who needs Google

Michael Andretti - 1993 Results-- Select Season --1993
Date Grandprix Team Winning Time Leader Offset Pos Pts Total
14/03/1993 South African GP McLaren Retirement - Hit Warwick 0 0
28/03/1993 Brazil McLaren Retirement - Accident With Berger 0 0
11/04/1993 European GP McLaren Retirement - Collision With Wendlinger 0 0
25/04/1993 San Marino McLaren Retirement - Spun 0 0
09/05/1993 Spain McLaren 92:27.685 +1 lap 5 2 2
23/05/1993 Monaco McLaren 112:10.947 +2 laps 8 0 2
13/06/1993 Canada McLaren 96:41.822 +3 laps 14 0 2
04/07/1993 France McLaren 98:35.241 +1 lap 6 1 3
11/07/1993 Britain McLaren Retirement - Spun 0 3
25/07/1993 Germany McLaren Retirement - Accident With Berger 0 3
15/08/1993 Hungary McLaren Retirement - Throttle Failure 0 3
29/08/1993 Belgium McLaren 84:32.124 +1 lap 8 0 3
12/09/1993 Italy McLaren 77:7.509 +1 lap 3 4 7

That's terrible, about on a par with that other American great Scott Speed.

Doing well in America doesn't really mean a great deal as IRL/CART/NASCAR etc are all second rate series.

When has Scott Speed scored a podium finish?

I'd love to see Marco got on the grid. Everything about him reminds me of his Grandpa. The family has talent, even Michael, lol (except for all the cry-baby stuff).

[sonic_roadhog]

Just hope the skill and talent skipped a generation as Michael certainly had none.

Do you really believe that?? Ok his F1 career didn't pan out but the guy was paired with the best. I decided to have a look at the stats from '93 and for the most part he qualified 0.6-0.7 sec behind senna. Certainly not brilliant but not without tallent. Rubens/Herbert/Irvine all were about the same pace relative to MS and all went on to win some GP's.

Anyway back to main post - good luck to the kid.

Sonic :)

[trumperZ06]

Who needs Google

Doing well in America doesn't really mean a great deal as IRL/CART/NASCAR etc are all second rate series.

:p :Hhmmmm.... your statement seems to be a bit... OPINIONATED !!!

Do you have facts to back it up ?

:D I guess there's no need to mention that American drivers have won at ALL Levels of auto racing in Europe.

I could list the 24 hr @ LeMans, with Dan Gurney & A.J. Foyt, driving & winning in a Ford GT 40. Then there's Formula 1... World Champions... Phil Hill & Mario Andretti. Formula 1 also watched Dan Gurney... driving his own car and winning. I believe he drove the American Eagle.

We could talk about Roger Penske, who's won just about everything/everywhere! Both as a driver and race car team owner.

Then there's ole Carrol Shelby who won @ LeMans in 1959 driving for Aston Martin. The same Carroll Shelby won @ LeMans again, managing Ford's GT 40 assault on Ferrari in the 60's, after he had already beaten Ferrari with his own Cobra team.

Ahh... the list could go... on & on!

But then, I really don't want to confuse you with facts, since your opinion about American drivers and our racing series, is the only one that you value.

;) Ahh well... Thankfully, there seems to be many here that disagree!!!


:s mokin:

[Bolton Midnight]

In F1 Speed never did and never will, but seem to recall similar arguments from some quarters in here about him being the next big thing, hence why I said I'd have thought lessons would have been learnt by now.

In comparison to his dad and in view of all the hype Michael was poor at best.

Poor do when you have to go back to the 60/70s to unearth some American success at the pinnacle of motorsport. The very fact that the homegrown talent has and is still being whupped by Europeans that are not good enough to get into F1 should tell you something about what the score is re the level of talent in America.

I hope this lad is as good as Mario, as it's high time someone came over the pond and proved they could match the world's best but until he starts proving it there's no need for any whoops of joy.

[Ranger]

I expect, should he get into F1, Marco or Ant will be in that 2nd Honda come 2009, depending on how negotiations go and how well Davidson goes in Super Aguri.

I sure hope Marco is as good as a lot of people think and can succeed in F1.

A lot of people would want to see it happen. Including Bernie.

[Bolton Midnight]

A lot of people would want to see it happen. Including Bernie.

Agreed, he's desparate to find a good American driver to fully tap into the American market.

Just keeps on not happening, but who knows, one day, maybe.

[Placid]

So far, aside from Marco, we still have Graham Rahal who might also break into F1 in 3 years. Furthermore, we hope that Charlie Kimball has a guaranteed ride in the World Series by Renault next year. Jonathan Summerton may still have his EuroSeries seat next year as well as Richard Antinucci.

Hopefully, Colin Fleming may have to impress again if he is lucky to have either a GP2 ride if he stays in the Atlantics or a possible jump at the CCWS before trying to head into the F1 market.

This US market is starting from scratch after the defection of (WELL, YOU KNOW).

[agwiii]

A test with Honda, thanks to Gil. One of the more interesting developments in this boring off-season. Good luck to Marco - I see the steering hand of Mario in this event.

[msaxman]

you just don't get it, bolton. being in F1, in any way, is a sign of great skill. you don't need to be winning races or championships to be good. almost any driver would rather be in F1 on a mediocre team than in america at the top. not because our series are worse, but just because they are able to match themselves against the best in the world. yes, scott speed isn't having the greatest of successes, but he is in F1, which says something.

settle down, let us americans brag about people we are excited about, and try not to shoot down everything we say as ridiculous or oversighted.

sorry for the rant.

i hope marco kicks some ass this week.

[jso1985]

I hope he does good there in Jerez

I think he has the talent for F1, his win at Sebring this year was a proof that he'e been made for road circuits and not ovals(were besides Indy, he performed average)

[Bolton Midnight]

History shows a long line of drivers that got into F1 because they had money, nothing to do with talent.

Since Mario Andretti there hasn't been a single American that earnt the right to be a F1 pilot they have got seats purely down to the fact that F1 is eager to exploit the American market.

[agwiii]

:dozey: Pffft... do you really think he lacked... "Talent" ?

Michael Andretti was simply screwed over by the FIA, when he drove in Formula 1. Rules were changed... thus not allowing Michael the opportunity to test, become familar with, and sort out the car.

Even Sena, who was his team-mate, said when Michael left the series, that Micheal Andretti was more than fast enough, he didn't get a fair chance in F-1.

:D Do a Google search on Michael Andretti's racing career. He's been VERY SUCCESSFUL... both as a Driver and Owner in professional racing.

Michael's problems included his wife, his residence, and that article in Sports Illustrated. You are right to point out that Senna confirmed Michael's speed and talent. The things that led to his departure from F1 had nothing to do with his talent.

[DexDexter]

Michael's problems included his wife, his residence, and that article in Sports Illustrated. You are right to point out that Senna confirmed Michael's speed and talent. The things that led to his departure from F1 had nothing to do with his talent.

Whatever the reasons behind Andretti's failures were, In F1 world and Europe Andretti was a laughing stock in 1993, that's a fact and his talent is not confirmed on this side of the pond at all. I'm sure he was better than his results but he probably underestimated the commitment needed in f1, his physical condition, for example, seemed to be on the junky side. (what is it with American drivers, looking at nascar or open-wheel, most of them don't look like athletes?) Also He didn't do a lot of testing but many drivers have been in the same situation and have performed better, Häkkinen for example, put his old Lotus 13th on the grid in his first gp with virtually no testing at all.

[wmcot]

In F1 Speed never did and never will, but seem to recall similar arguments from some quarters in here about him being the next big thing, hence why I said I'd have thought lessons would have been learnt by now.

Bit early to tell, don't you think?



I hope this lad is as good as Mario, as it's high time someone came over the pond and proved they could match the world's best but until he starts proving it there's no need for any whoops of joy.

But we'll never know if he doesn't get the chance!

[ArrowsFA1]

Whatever the reasons behind Andretti's failures were, In F1 world and Europe Andretti was a laughing stock in 1993...
Isn't it better to look at the reasons before adding to the laughter :dozey: ?

Teamed with Senna, and having no knowledge of the tracks and just a handful of laps to learn them during the race weekends meant Andretti was always fighting an uphill battle. Also, I suspect McLaren would have preferred to have Hakkinen alongside Senna from the start.

Andretti was always an exciting driver to watch. Not as good as his father, but few were.

Marco looks promising, and it will be very interesting to see how he goes in his Honda test.

[call_me_andrew]

Doing well in America doesn't really mean a great deal as IRL/CART/NASCAR etc are all second rate series.

I'm going to point out the great flaw in your logic by reminding you that you're not even listing different series of racing. You're listing sanctioning bodies. Would you like to write a thesis on why Formula One is better than FIM?


When has Scott Speed scored a podium finish?

Don't you remember? That was the race his teammate won.

You didn't think some sexed-up Minardi with a handicapped engine would win did you?

I think Marco would do well in F1, but I'd like to see him win Indy first.

[Bolton Midnight]

Scott Speed just like Michael Andretti was over hyped, and it would appear that Marco Andretti is going to receive the same treatment, which makes me think he'll go the same way i.e. a complete no hoper. Let the driving do the talking not the poor attitude and lack of respect for just how hard F1 is.

Indy Racing changes it's name so often I'm not unduly bothered what it's called, it is and always will be for ex F1 has beens and never will be drivers.

[Robinho]

i don't think its fair to say Scott has been over hyped like Michael. i think he's landed in F1 with a minimum of fuss, obviously there are a few of our American friends who are shouting for him, but why wouldn't they, its been a while since a US driver has landed in F1.

Andretti was hyped as he was going into a top team, alongside Senna and was a Chamnpion in the States. circumstances, however, were against him and the results never came. i'm not saying he would have beaten Senna but he could have carved out a decent career in F1 if he had been able to stick around, and perhaps if he's gone in with the commitments to follow F1, live in Europe, get a lot more testing under his belt etc things may have turned out differnetly.

as it is the one season is probably not enough to judge him on as a driver overall.

on the other hand Scott Speed has matched him teammate most of the year and who knows, once in a decent car may be capable of a few results, i wouldn't want to write him off just yet.

and as for Marco, he has had a fantastic start to his career in the states, has a famous name, and plenty of backing, he's earned a test at least and i would imagine that some of the hype is deserved. i agree he will need to fully apply himself if he's to succeed in F1, and to be fair he's in a fine position to learn from his fathers mistakes (and his Grandfathers experience)

constant rubishing of the American series is not really fair, they are "only" domestic series really, but attract a great deal of interest both from spectators and drivers around the world.

whilst it may not be the pinnacle that F1 is, both US series are every bit the professional and competitve series with some names who could cut it in F1, Bourdais and Wilson to name just 2.

these guys have to race somewhere of they are to stay as racing drivers, and not everyone can make it to F1, some stay in GP2, some go to the states, you have DTM, Japan, all worthy, and if you can win in any of these you are a very talented person, who might have a chance of making the grade in F1.

i don't see anyone getting any more excited than we do over Hamilton and Button for example

[Bolton Midnight]

I don't know if the old forum is still viewable but if it is go and read all the rubbish posted by the Americans re Scott Spped in GP2 it was pure bull from start to finish how he was going to do this, do that etc blah blah.

Re Michael Andretti, if this if that, if my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle.

Justin Wilson was pretty rubbish in F1 but no suprise he can mix it Stateside as it's second rate to F1. Same story with many F1 failures.

Button & Hamilton are talented, Michael Andretti & Scott Speed aren't in the same league, we'll have to wait and see what Marco goes.

[ArrowsFA1]

Justin Wilson was pretty rubbish in F1 but no suprise he can mix it Stateside as it's second rate to F1. Same story with many F1 failures.
The alternative view is that F1 was "pretty rubbish" to discard Wilson. He has shown his ability since escaping that top team that was Jaguar :p : , and showed it long before he got into F1.

The problem is there are only so many seats to go around, and if you're not sitting down when the music stops then you go elsewhere.

[BenRoethig]

Who needs Google

Michael Andretti - 1993 Results-- Select Season --1993
Date Grandprix Team Winning Time Leader Offset Pos Pts Total
14/03/1993 South African GP McLaren Retirement - Hit Warwick 0 0
28/03/1993 Brazil McLaren Retirement - Accident With Berger 0 0
11/04/1993 European GP McLaren Retirement - Collision With Wendlinger 0 0
25/04/1993 San Marino McLaren Retirement - Spun 0 0
09/05/1993 Spain McLaren 92:27.685 +1 lap 5 2 2
23/05/1993 Monaco McLaren 112:10.947 +2 laps 8 0 2
13/06/1993 Canada McLaren 96:41.822 +3 laps 14 0 2
04/07/1993 France McLaren 98:35.241 +1 lap 6 1 3
11/07/1993 Britain McLaren Retirement - Spun 0 3
25/07/1993 Germany McLaren Retirement - Accident With Berger 0 3
15/08/1993 Hungary McLaren Retirement - Throttle Failure 0 3
29/08/1993 Belgium McLaren 84:32.124 +1 lap 8 0 3
12/09/1993 Italy McLaren 77:7.509 +1 lap 3 4 7

That's terrible, about on a par with that other American great Scott Speed.

Doing well in America doesn't really mean a great deal as IRL/CART/NASCAR etc are all second rate series.

American great Scott Speed? He could walk down his own street and nobody would have a clue who he is. And if you want to talk second rate, any series who has as little faith in the drivers to drive the cars on their own as to mandate semi automatic transmissions, traction control, and god knows what else would qualify. Oh wait, that's the so called pinnacle. Fittipaldi, Senna, and Prost had to dive their own cars.

[Bolton Midnight]

Wilson just was not good enough to make the grade in F1 yet he's a star in America
QED
There are less good drivers in America

The current F1 drivers could quite easily deal without driver aids it's the manufactures that want them not the drivers.

[grassrootsracer]

Button & Hamilton are talented, Michael Andretti & Scott Speed aren't in the same league, we'll have to wait and see what Marco goes.[/quote]

Wait a minute. You're hailing one driver who has little to no F1 experience (Hamilton, other than testing recently) and slagging another (Andretti). What gives? Do you have something against Americans? Hamilton has posted fast times at Jerez and has demonstrated potential in lower catergories. But testing times are largely irrelevant, as should be obvious. And Andretti has had some success in his racing career as well, albeit clearly not as much as Hamilton.

I'm excited for Marco, but will wait till he's had more seat time in a Formula One car to claim he's the next "one" for the United States. Good luck to him and good riddance to his detractors.

[grassrootsracer]

Button & Hamilton are talented, Michael Andretti & Scott Speed aren't in the same league, we'll have to wait and see what Marco goes.

Wait a minute. You're hailing one driver who has little F1 experience (Hamilton, other than testing recently) and slagging another (Andretti). What gives? Do you have something against Americans? Hamilton has posted fast times at Jerez and has demonstrated potential in lower catergories. But testing times are largely irrelevant, as should be obvious. And Andretti has had some success in his racing career as well, albeit clearly not as much as Hamilton.

I'm excited for Marco, but will wait till he's had more seat time in a Formula One car to claim he's the next "one" for the United States. Good luck to him and good riddance to his detractors.

[schmenke]

A bit like Tony Kanaan last year....

That's exactly what I was thinking :dozey:

[msaxman]

name one former F1 driver in the IRL..... none?..... ok.

please, know what you speak of before you speak it. why is it so bad to be excited about a driver from your home nation getting a break in F1? the british get excited about hamilton, the i'm sure the french are now excited about sebastien. what's the big deal. you say we'll wait and see how much success the kid has. you're damn right. everyone but you is having fun waiting while your just a sourpuss.

live and let live.

sorry for the rant.

[call_me_andrew]

I don't know if the old forum is still viewable but if it is go and read all the rubbish posted by the Americans re Scott Spped in GP2 it was pure bull from start to finish how he was going to do this, do that etc blah blah.

Re Michael Andretti, if this if that, if my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle.

Justin Wilson was pretty rubbish in F1 but no suprise he can mix it Stateside as it's second rate to F1. Same story with many F1 failures.

How exactly was Justin Wilson rubbish? He usually out performed his teammate, and of all his retirements, there was only one crash, Brazil 2003. Given the nature of that race, I'd put an asterisk next to it.

Given the fact that he scored points in a Jaguar, he deserves a medal.

[DexDexter]

The alternative view is that F1 was "pretty rubbish" to discard Wilson. He has shown his ability since escaping that top team that was Jaguar :p : , and showed it long before he got into F1.

The problem is there are only so many seats to go around, and if you're not sitting down when the music stops then you go elsewhere.

Well, if Wilson had been really good, he'd be in F1 right now, ok, sometimes the circumstances etc. play a major role but the best of the best will come through, one way or another, Häkkinen being a good example (from a working class-family, small country (small market), no meaningful sponsorship, didn't really speak English properly etc.... And the guy just drove the wheels of an old Lotus in 1991 with no testing...or in case of Schumi, destroying his teammates immediately in an unfamiliar car after driving sportscars.... Wilson's situation was just a typical F1 opportunity, the best will make most of it, others won't.

[Bolton Midnight]

Wait a minute. You're hailing one driver who has little F1 experience (Hamilton, other than testing recently) and slagging another (Andretti). What gives? Do you have something against Americans? Hamilton has posted fast times at Jerez and has demonstrated potential in lower catergories. But testing times are largely irrelevant, as should be obvious. And Andretti has had some success in his racing career as well, albeit clearly not as much as Hamilton.

I'm excited for Marco, but will wait till he's had more seat time in a Formula One car to claim he's the next "one" for the United States. Good luck to him and good riddance to his detractors.

Hamilton has won championships in Europe where the world's talent races, not in America, see the subtle difference?

Winning in America is meaningless as the real talent is in Europe.


name one former F1 driver in the IRL..... none?..... ok.


Yep most of the front runners tried to get into F1 but weren't good enough. There's even a woman that goes well in IRL it's that dire.


Well, if Wilson had been really good, he'd be in F1 right now, ok, sometimes the circumstances etc. play a major role but the best of the best will come through, one way or another, Häkkinen being a good example (from a working class-family, small country (small market), no meaningful sponsorship, didn't really speak English properly etc.... And the guy just drove the wheels of an old Lotus in 1991 with no testing...or in case of Schumi, destroying his teammates immediately in an unfamiliar car after driving sportscars.... Wilson's situation was just a typical F1 opportunity, the best will make most of it, others won't.

Exactly the cream will always float to the top.

The fact that I can see the likes of Wilson and Firman for not being that great is where I differ from some as they just see all of their nation's drivers as the best ever, they are blinkered by nationalistic fever and jingoism. The very fact some just won’t admit that the likes of Michael Andretti and Scott Speed are a bit pants proves my point.

[msaxman]

when's the last time you smiled, bolton? you are totally missing the point. we just enjoying supporting drivers from our nation. is that sooooooo bad?

[Ranger]

Winning in America is meaningless as the real talent is in Europe.


Juan Pablo Montoya? Jacques Villeneuve?

You may think their non-European achievements were meaningless but history tells us that they were 2 of the more notable F1 drivers of the past 10 years.

[ArrowsFA1]

Well, if Wilson had been really good, he'd be in F1 right now.
Perhaps, just perhaps, F1 is not the be all and end all of the motorsport world.

Winning in America is meaningless as the real talent is in Europe.
Winning is winning, regardless of location.

[Bolton Midnight]

when's the last time you smiled, bolton? you are totally missing the point. we just enjoying supporting drivers from our nation. is that sooooooo bad?


Smile all the time, nothing wrong with supporting drivers from your home nation, it's bigging them up into something they aren't that's wrong.


Juan Pablo Montoya? Jacques Villeneuve?

You may think their non-European achievements were meaningless but history tells us that they were 2 of the more notable F1 drivers of the past 10 years.

Neither are American though are they. JPM was very erratic at best and JV only did well with millions of miles testing in the superior Williams and against Damon Hill who will never be ranked as one of the worlds best will he.




Winning is winning, regardless of location.

So winning a Dutch Touring Car Race is as valid as winning a DTM, BTCC or WTCC race, yeah right.

[ArrowsFA1]

So winning a Dutch Touring Car Race is as valid as winning a DTM, BTCC or WTCC race, yeah right.
Well it is to the winner of the Dutch Touring Car Race, but we're getting away from your original point, which was that "winning in America is meaningless as the real talent is in Europe".

I don't accept that. The US has its own tradition of racing which is very different to Europe. Different. Not better. Not worse. Not meaningless. Just different.

Do you think a European, raised on the likes of Thruxton and Brands Hatch, could just walk in and win on a Wisconsin dirt track one evening? It's unlikely, and yet spectators there would probably think European racing was meaningless and irrelevant.

It's not. Europe has its own tradition of racing which is very different to the US. Different. Not better. Not worse. Not meaningless. Just different.

[Bolton Midnight]

Nürburgring vs. Indy oval

Oh yes going round in circles is mega tough

Face facts, they are rubbish.

[grassrootsracer]

Bolton, you posts show ignorance. Comparing oval racing and road racing is like apples to oranges. Oval racing is not any harder or any easier than road racing. It is simply a different challenge in regards to driving skills and engineering setup.

If you want to be technical, Montoya and Villeneuve are both American. Colombia is in South America and Quebec is in Canada, which is part of North America. Also it could be argued the same for Fittipaldi, Senna, and Piquet, seeing as they are all from Brazil (part of South America too).

We also have road racing, even in the IRL (St. Petersburg, Watkins Glen, Mid Ohio, Infineon, and Belle Isle) and NASCAR (Infineon and Watkins Glen). Then there are the dedicated road racing series, Champ Car and American Le Mans Series. To say there is not talent in any of those four series is a misguided statement based on opinion, not fact.

Further more, most Americans don't over hype Scott Speed. I only give him a second glance because he is from the United States. Similarly, no one here is over hyping Marco. We're simply pleased he is being given the chance to be evaluated by Honda.

Phil Hill, Dan Gurney (not a champion, but still talented), and Mario Andretti. While we may not have that many champions (does it really matter?), we do have talent.

Jingoistic? Maybe you should look back at your own posts directed towards American racing.

[Schnell]

Wasnt Wheldon also promised a HondaF1 test for winning the IRL a few years back? Seems hes been overlooked yet great to see Marco in an F1 car - infact, I really wanted to see Marco in GP2 in 2006.

I feel that grandpa will win the Andretti father/grandfather tug-of-love and expect Marco in F1 by 2008/09 hopefully

Wheldon must be a bit miffed that he hasn't been offered a test, before Marco. One can only guess Mario had more clout.

but Kannan had to wait a while before he was offered a test opportunity, which blew him away. Wheldon was very unwise to turn down the F1 test drivers job he claims he was offered last year with another team, because if it was Sauber BMW look what happened there!

[wedge]

Teamed with Senna, and having no knowledge of the tracks and just a handful of laps to learn them during the race weekends meant Andretti was always fighting an uphill battle. Also, I suspect McLaren would have preferred to have Hakkinen alongside Senna from the start.

Ron signed Michael around the same time Mansell signed for Newman Haas.

Around that time Senna was becoming dis-illusioned by F1, politics, driver aids, uncompetitive McLaren.

Senna wouldn't put pen onto paper and commit for '93 and so Ron signed Hakkinen as 'test driver' AKA third driver - as an insurance in case Senna went off to do Indycars.

[wedge]

Wheldon must be a bit miffed that he hasn't been offered a test, before Marco. One can only guess Mario had more clout.

Wheldon was very unwise to turn down the F1 test drivers job he claims he was offered last year with another team, because if it was Sauber BMW look what happened there!

He was offered the BMW test driver role, but because he was IRL champ and desperately looking for a proper race seat last year he turned it down!

Whether it was pride and/or naivety, clearly Mario Theissen was desperate to get rid of JV, and never saw it coming. I suspect DW, like most of us, thought '06 would be JV's last full year in F1.

[Roamy]

Nürburgring vs. Indy oval

Oh yes going round in circles is mega tough

Face facts, they are rubbish.

Actually oval racing in openwheel cars is quite difficult because it is not a question of "if" it is a question of "When" you will hit the wall. Because of that I am not a big fan of ovals. The sustained speed and danger leaves F1 looking like a tryke race for faggots. If fact many F1 drivers refuse to drive on the high speed ovals. I don't even blame them, however you need to understand driving at sustained speed. I will agree F1 cars are incredible but could be even better without all the driver aids.

Not all Americans have a interest in coming to F1 - Pay is good and life is good for many sucessfull racers in America. In the real scheme of life having 50 million living in the boring sh!thole switzerland compared to 15 million living at South Beach leaves little desire to move abroad.

With all that being said I will agree - many of our racers are a bit soft to make it all the way up in either series. But what the hell other dream could one have living in Findland, Poland, Germany, France etc. Matter of fact Italy, Spain and Portugal should quit the EU and bar those dead Brits and germans from poluting the beaches.

[trumperZ06]

;) Hey Fousto,

I think trying to reason with Bolton Midnight has become a "waste of time" !

BM's... Obnoxious and Opinionated view of both the United States drivers and the Series that support Racing, show a complete lack of any real knowledge and understanding about Racing.

:dozey: As you know..The Schuey Brothers (and others), have refused to run Ovals, simply because of the danger involved if the driver makes a mistake.

Oval racing is the most difficult type of motorsport, due to the driver having to keep the car constantly "on the edge" thoughout the race.

:p : Henceforth, BM will bring to mind what his initals stand for...

Cya @ the Track,

Trumper

:s mokin:

[Bolton Midnight]

If you want to be technical, Montoya and Villeneuve are both American. Colombia is in South America and Quebec is in Canada, which is part of North America. Also it could be argued the same for Fittipaldi, Senna, and Piquet, seeing as they are all from Brazil (part of South America too).



Don't insult them by calling them American, none of those countries would want anything to do with USA, as they know where to coe to learn how to drive, Europe and Britain in particular.


Wheldon must be a bit miffed that he hasn't been offered a test, before Marco. One can only guess Mario had more clout.



Almost, begins with C but it's CASH that's the only reason he's getting a look at a F1.

[Alexamateo]

Don't insult them by calling them American, none of those countries would want anything to do with USA, as they know where to coe to learn how to drive, Europe and Britain in particular.


Off topic, but my Latin American wife always points out to me that she is also an American, so I wouldn't be so quick to make that statement. In my house, I'm a gringo from Gringolandia :p :

[Roamy]

Don't insult them by calling them American, none of those countries would want anything to do with USA, as they know where to coe to learn how to drive, Europe and Britain in particular.



Almost, begins with C but it's CASH that's the only reason he's getting a look at a F1.

The best thing about you bolton is that I don't expect you to come over here for vacation. Funny to how many latin american women have won miss universe title compared to brits. And actually the new champ car cars look quite good and we don't have to hang wingletts all over them to make up for
driver deficiencies.

[Ranger]

Neither are American though are they.
No, but considering you are arguing about American Racing then that shouldn't have much to do with it, should it?

Or are you suggesting that Americans somehow have less mental, physical strength and skill to succeed in F1 than Canadians and Colombians?


JPM was very erratic at best and JV only did well with millions of miles testing in the superior Williams and against Damon Hill who will never be ranked as one of the worlds best will he.


So despite one being a champion and the other one being one of the most successful drivers over the past 10 years, you're still rubbishing them.

Face it, there are only a handful of truly great champions in F1 over the 56/57 years of its existance. The idiocy in your assumption is that you are discarding the fact that Villeneuve is a champion, which is much more than many many other drivers have achieved or come remotely close to.

Or Montoya, who is one of the most distinguished drivers of the past 10 years. His acheivements are much more than what many many drivers before have done.

To deny that these two were talented and F1 drivers would be idiotic and quite narrow minded on your behalf. To assume that all American raised F1 drivers would have the same career path and outcomes as Montoya and Villeneuve, whether that be a good or bad thing, would also be very stereotypical and narrow-minded.

[call_me_andrew]

Yep most of the front runners tried to get into F1 but weren't good enough. There's even a woman that goes well in IRL it's that dire.

That's funny. She went to the IRL after racing in Europe, and I can't believe no one else is bothered by this sexism (and a little bit of xenophobia).

Has Bolton always been a troll?

Does anyone actually notice me here?

[DexDexter]

It's interesting to see what comes out of Marco's test, but I think it's more to do with his name than talent (we don't know about that). Enlighten me, has he done well in karting on the world stage? That usually tells a lot. What achievements does he have besides racing in an oval series? Has he raced in any competitive junior formulas that race on road courses?

[Bolton Midnight]

I can't believe no one else is bothered by this sexism

How is it sexist, women are not as good race drivers as men, fact, deal with it.



The best thing about you bolton is that I don't expect you to come over here for vacation. Funny to how many latin american women have won miss universe title compared to brits.


What the hell has Miss World got to do with racing? Granted some of the women from countries such as Brazil and Mexico are very pretty but they still aren't American. You can tell they aren't septics because they don't have big hair and aren't obese.

This really is scraping the bottom of the barrel.




Or are you suggesting that Americans somehow have less mental, physical strength and skill to succeed in F1 than Canadians and Colombians?

So despite one being a champion and the other one being one of the most successful drivers over the past 10 years, you're still rubbishing them.

Face it, there are only a handful of truly great champions in F1 over the 56/57 years of its existance. The idiocy in your assumption is that you are discarding the fact that Villeneuve is a champion, which is much more than many many other drivers have achieved or come remotely close to.

Or Montoya, who is one of the most distinguished drivers of the past 10 years. His acheivements are much more than what many many drivers before have done.



JV & JPM are not American, how do you not get that?

They are from Columbia and Canada, not America, do you own an Atlas?

[ArrowsFA1]

Enlighten me, has he done well in karting on the world stage? That usually tells a lot. What achievements does he have besides racing in an oval series? Has he raced in any competitive junior formulas that race on road courses?
http://marcoandretti.com/profile.htm

That's also a hint to get back on topic ;)

[Bolton Midnight]

So nothing in Europe then, don't think Alonso needs to be concerned just yet, nor Barrichello or Button.

2006
• Competing in IRL Indy Car Series for Andretti Green Racing
• Finished Second, 2006 Indy 500


2005
• Finished 5th in Star Mazda Series
• Competed in six Indy Racing League Infiniti Pro Series events
• 3 wins
• 3 pole positions
• 5 podium finishes

2004
• Champion – Skip Barber National Series
• Champion – Skip Barber Formula Dodge Southern Series
• Champion – Formula TR

2003 (first year in cars)
• Captured Skip Barber's Formula Dodge Eastern Series Championship
• 8 First Place finishes: Virginia 4/26/2003; Lime Rock 5/16/2003; Lime Rock 5/17/2003; Mont Tremblant 8/3/2003; Lime Rock 8/15/2003; Lime Rock 8/16/2003; Road America 9/14/2003; Lime Rock Park 10/3/2003;
• Skip Barber's Formula Dodge Eastern Series "Rookie of the Year"
• Set Track Records at Virginia International Raceway; Lime Rock Park, CT ; Moroso Motorsports Park, FL ; & Road Atlanta

2002 (first year in karting nationally)
• Won Stars of Tomorrow National Championship for Oakland Valley
• Backwards Series Co-Champion for Oakland Valley
• Captured 1st and 2nd for Junior Regional Super Nationals Oakland Valley
• Secured five World Karting Association Podiums and two fast laps
• Had a Stars of Tomorrow National Win in Nevada

2001 ( Oakland Valley )
• Backward Series Champion
• Track Champion
• Back to School Series Co-Champion

2000 ( Oakland Valley )
• Track Champion
• Pro Shifter Series Champion
• Back to School Series Champion

1999
• First Race in Oakland Valley Race Park
• Challenge Series Win

1997
• First Kart Race ( Flemmington , New Jersey ) – 2nd Place
• Two Wins and Six Podium Finishes – Flemmington

[ArrowsFA1]

According to Autosport Marco is looking to move to F1.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/56006

[Roamy]

Yep Bolton - I see many future WDC's in this group

Here are the latest confirmed entries for 2007 - GP2

No Driver Nat Team
- Lucas di Grassi BRZ ART Grand Prix
- Michael Ammermüller D ART Grand Prix
- Timo Glock D iSport International
- Andi Zuber AUT iSport International
- Javier Villa ESP Racing Engineering
- Alexandre Negrao BRZ Piquet Sports
- Roldan Rodriguez ESP Piquet Sports
- Nicolas Lapierre FRA DAMS
- Kazuki Nakajima JAP DAMS
- Antonio Pizzonia BRZ FMS International
- Jason Tahinci TUR FMS International
- Kohei Hirate JAP Trident Racing

[grassrootsracer]

According to Autosport Marco is looking to move to F1.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/56006

You know, that is roughly the same time frame as Graham Rahal's plans to race in F1 (if he can ever work out the GP2 issues post-Champ Car). It'd be nice to see two Americans in F1, if we're so lucky. I know, this is purely hypothetical and all, but a boy can dream...

[Schnell]

He was offered the BMW test driver role, but because he was IRL champ and desperately looking for a proper race seat last year he turned it down!

Whether it was pride and/or naivety, clearly Mario Theissen was desperate to get rid of JV, and never saw it coming. I suspect DW, like most of us, thought '06 would be JV's last full year in F1.

As I thought...however even as IRL champ, if he was (and I know he really is) serious about getting into F1, a testing role for a year, even without a guarantee of a race seat was worth the gamble. After all his reputation in the States would have remained unblemished, and no doubt he's financially secure now, so why blow the opportunity!? As it turned out JV left the team mid season and the 3rd driver made the step up to Grand Prix racer with a dash, as DW would have done too, I've no doubts. I bet he's kicking himself!

[Ranger]

JV & JPM are not American, how do you not get that?

They are from Columbia and Canada, not America, do you own an Atlas?

Yes I do.

But have a look at your post:

Doing well in America doesn't really mean a great deal as IRL/CART/NASCAR etc are all second rate series.

You were talking about American racing. Then I gave an example of drivers who had raced and succeeded in America then moved to F1 and were also quite successful there, but then you brushed that argument aside because they were not American.

That is why I brought up the question - because the fact that they are not American has nothing to do with the fact that they did initially receive major fame in America, then progressed straight to F1, to succeed there.

Which is why the atlas question has nothing to do with this argument.

[DexDexter]

Yes I do.

But have a look at your post:


You were talking about American racing. Then I gave an example of drivers who had raced and succeeded in America then moved to F1 and were also quite successful there, but then you brushed that argument aside because they were not American.

That is why I brought up the question - because the fact that they are not American has nothing to do with the fact that they did initially receive major fame in America, then progressed straight to F1, to succeed there.

Which is why the atlas question has nothing to do with this argument.

You forget that both JV and JPM cut their racing "teeth" in Europe, partially at least, so they were not products of American open-wheel racing. Last of those in F1 was Michael Andretti.

[Ranger]

You forget that both JV and JPM cut their racing "teeth" in Europe, partially at least, so they were not products of American open-wheel racing. Last of those in F1 was Michael Andretti.

Montoya yes.

JV spent 4 years in Italian F3 in '89 - '92, with no major achievements.

Did this say that he was less talented than those other drivers, considering European racing is the be all and end all talent pool of racing?

Some people would say yes.

Other people may not care, as regardless of his achievements pre-F1, he became champion.

And, relating to the topic at hand, this proves that thus far, nothing can determine whether or not Marco Andretti has the talent to succeed in F1.

[Bolton Midnight]

JV only did well when he had the best F1 car by a country mile, as soon as his car wasn't the best he flopped.

JPM was quick but erratic.

The fact they were both a lot better than their rivals in America again just proves how few good drivers there are in America.

But the fact that neither are American means that since Mario Andretti (who of course had Italian connections) there has not been a decent driver from the USA. Maybe Marco will be the exception that proves the rule, maybe he won't, only time will tell.

[Schnell]

http://marcoandretti.com/profile.htm

That's also a hint to get back on topic ;)

Looks right on topic to me matey!
Very few Americans bother to take on 'world class' karting, which is the FIA/CIK European championships. Pat Long and Brandon Miller did, I recall. However most Americans would only do their own junior national stuff, skipping senior karting going on to their own national car racing series, which only usually leads to Ovals. I think you'll find good ole Grandad made the call to Gil at Honda F1.

[ArrowsFA1]

The fact they were both a lot better than their rivals in America again just proves how few good drivers there are in America.
JV won the 1995 CART title by just 11 points (the equivalent of a 4th place finish) from Al Unser Jnr. Fabi, Gugelmin, Fittipaldi, Johansson & de Ferran were all struggling to reach the top ten, and yet these were drivers who cut their teeth in the superior (your view) European racing scene. If European-based drivers are so superior how come they were beaten by 6 US drivers and a Canadian?

Montoya was tied on points with Franchitti in 1997, but won the title because he won more races. The other drivers with a European racing background to make the top ten were Papis (5th), Fittipaldi (7th) & de Ferran (8th).

Neither title win was a walkover, and both prove nothing other than the American racing scene provides a very competitive field. After his honeymoon season in 1993 Mansell found this fact to be very true.

p.s. Sorry for ignoring my own advice and going off-topic :p

[DexDexter]

JV won the 1995 CART title by just 11 points (the equivalent of a 4th place finish) from Al Unser Jnr. Fabi, Gugelmin, Fittipaldi, Johansson & de Ferran were all struggling to reach the top ten, and yet these were drivers who cut their teeth in the superior (your view) European racing scene. If European-based drivers are so superior how come they were beaten by 6 US drivers and a Canadian?

p.s. Sorry for ignoring my own advice and going off-topic :p

With the exception of Ferran all the above mentioned drivers were way past their prime in F1 terms at that time, Fittipaldi peaked in the 70's, Gugelmin couldn't get an F1 ride etc., so ex-f1 drivers driving for fun are not representative, otherwise the DTM racers would be rated much higher than they are now with Double WC Mika losing to many many drivers there. I' m sure there is competitive and real racing in the states but all the evidence points to European junior formulas being the best place to be if you have aspirations to get into F1.

[jso1985]

How is it sexist, women are not as good race drivers as men, fact, deal with it.


Sorry for going off topic, where's the fact?

Honestly I don't see the point of saying Marco won't succed because he's American, ok America hasn't had a really talented driver in F1 since Mario but we really don't know if Marco is fast enough for F1 let alone if he's championship material.
Plus I think many American drivers from the golden era of Indy Cars like Rick Mears or Al Unser jr. could have been succesful in F1 but they weren't just interested

[race aficionado]

JV & JPM are not American, how do you not get that?

They are from Columbia and Canada, not America, do you own an Atlas?

Man, I have to jump in.
First of all it is Colombia, not Columbia, and what part of North AMERICA Central AMERICA and South AMERICA do you not comprehend?

Here in USA we are The United States of America, in that you are correct, and we are a country that is part of North America.

class dismissed, lesson ended.

:s mokin:

[Roamy]

Rack him Race !!

Plus Honda was pretty happy with Marco. I wish they would take Marco out of IRL and put him in Champ Car. If he kicks there F1 would be a option.

[rickos]

Bolton Midnight;154349]JV only did well when he had the best F1 car by a country mile, as soon as his car wasn't the best he flopped.



Bolton, the freak with the best car in 06 ended in P2.

:s mokin:

[El Sween]

I think Marco is a stunning talent. I hope we see him in F1 soon

[Ranger]

Well he seems interested in driving in F1 after winning the 500.

Possible, but how many years out will this become a reality?

[Bolton Midnight]

Indy Racing League star Marco Andretti, son of former McLaren driver Michael and grandson of 1978 world champion Mario, had his first taste of an F1 car thanks to Honda.

The 19-year-old American was two seconds off the pace of Honda test driver James Rossiter.

Mmmmm true to usual American form, i.e. pretty crap. Not a patch on Davidson, Pafett, Piquet, Kubicia and Hamilton

Japanese drivers seem on a par with American drivers, rubbish to a man.


Sorry for going off topic, where's the fact?



So how many women have won F1 races or championships? Only good female driver was Michelle Mouton.


Man, I have to jump in.
First of all it is Colombia, not Columbia, and what part of North AMERICA Central AMERICA and South AMERICA do you not comprehend?

Here in USA we are The United States of America, in that you are correct, and we are a country that is part of North America.

class dismissed, lesson ended.

:s mokin:

Pathetic trying to claim Senna et al as Yanks. Does that mean Jack Brabham and Alan Jones are Brits?

Really scraping the bottom of the barrel there.


Bolton, the freak with the best car in 06 ended in P2.

:s mokin:

The Renault with the dynamic dampers was the best car.

[Bolton Midnight]

Well he seems interested in driving in F1 after winning the 500.



Sam Hornish won the Indy 500 not Marco Andretti

[Subaru WRX]

I think he is speaking about a future Indy 500 and IRL victories :)

[Alexamateo]

Man, I have to jump in.
First of all it is Colombia, not Columbia, and what part of North AMERICA Central AMERICA and South AMERICA do you not comprehend?

Here in USA we are The United States of America, in that you are correct, and we are a country that is part of North America.

class dismissed, lesson ended.

:s mokin:




Pathetic trying to claim Senna et al as Yanks. Does that mean Jack Brabham and Alan Jones are Brits?

Really scraping the bottom of the barrel there.



.

You're being a little dense in this, he said they were Americans, not Yanks.

Like Race, who is from Colombia, says It's all America. My Latin American wife reminds me of this fact all the time. :p : Trust me they're very sensitive on this.

[Jag_Warrior]

In F1 Speed never did and never will,

Don't suppose you'd give me the winning lottery numbers for next week... while you've got the old crystal ball out, would ya?

[Bolton Midnight]

So what is Barrichello, a Brazilian or a South American? Bearing in mind how passionate he is about his native Brazil, I don;t think I've ever heard him refer to himself as a South American.

I'm Lancastrian, then English, then British, then European and in that order.

Face it Americans are crap at making race cars, crap at making racing circuits, crap at driving, well lets face it they are pretty average at most things.

[call_me_andrew]

How is it sexist, women are not as good race drivers as men, fact, deal with it.

Not a big fan of drag racing are you?


Face it Americans are crap at making race cars, crap at making racing circuits, crap at driving, well lets face it they are pretty average at most things.

Well that confirms the xenophobia.

[AJP]

Face it Americans are crap at making race cars, crap at making racing circuits, crap at driving, well lets face it they are pretty average at most things.

Wow....!!!!!
you really know what your talking about....

[Jag_Warrior]

Face it Americans are crap at making race cars, crap at making racing circuits, crap at driving, well lets face it they are pretty average at most things.

One of the worst cases of Yank envy that I've seen in awhile.

[Ranger]

Face it Americans are crap at making race cars, crap at making racing circuits, crap at driving, well lets face it they are pretty average at most things.

This must be the basis for your argument.

Brilliant.

[grassrootsracer]

Face it Americans are crap at making race cars, crap at making racing circuits, crap at driving, well lets face it they are pretty average at most things.

I could list plenty of successful American chassis builders, talented drivers, and excellent racing circuits, but what would be the point? You clearly won't accept the facts that refute your every misguided, closed-minded, xenophobic, and sexist opinions.

I'd love to offer my opinion on you, but in my English class, I was taught to let the facts do the talking. I'll let your own words be your downfall.

Finally, you should research the items on the following list:

Chaparral
Chevrolet Corvette
Dodge Viper
Elan Motorsports Technologies/Panoz
Lee Stohr Cars
Riley Technologies
Saleen
Shelby American
Swift Engineering
West Race Cars

Watkins Glen
Lime Rock Park
Virginia International Raceway
Road Atlanta
Sebring International Raceway
Barber Motorsports Park
Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course
Heartland Park
Road America
Laguna Seca
Infineon Raceway

Mario Andretti
Bill Auberlen
Terry Borcheler
Mark Donohue
Clint Field
George Follmer
AJ Foyt
Dan Gurney
Jim Hall
Phil Hill
Andy Lally
Darren Law
Butch Leitzinger
Patrick Long
Graham Rahal
Peter Revson
Boris Said
Carroll Smith
Carroll Shelby
Al Unser, Jr

I'm sure I left out many notable and talented drivers, cars, and tracks; and am well aware this list transcends Formula One. After all, you didn't specify which racing series or type of cars you were bashing. Oh well. Hopefully this will open your eyes a bit, Bolton. And I apologize to everyone else for steering this thread off course.

Back on to the topic of young Marco...
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/56041
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=30198
This is roughly what I expected; Andretti to perform decently, but nothing special. I know test times are very arbitrary, but he was ahead of Scott Speed on Friday.

[Subaru WRX]

why thre is no longer any American car maker at F1 ? the only one is...Chrysler with Mercedes :D ,it's a shame that Ford withdrewn, and GM is not there !

about US drivers, Marco Andretti could find a ride at F1 with his talent, but its all about sponsors and money there and even a 3 times CCWS champion didn't find any one there in exeption of a "test drive" at Jerez

:)

[jjanicke]

History shows a long line of drivers that got into F1 because they had money, nothing to do with talent.

Since Mario Andretti there hasn't been a single American that earnt the right to be a F1 pilot they have got seats purely down to the fact that F1 is eager to exploit the American market.

No offense buddy but lets get dirty (you want to fight.. so let's go). Who are these mother fnckers (and I like them and believe they belong in F1):

Felipe Massa
Giancarlo Fisichella
Jenson Button
Rubens Barrichello
Nick Heidfeld
Ralf Schumacher
Pedro de la Rosa
Jarno Trulli
David Coulthard
Mark Webber
Christian Klien
Vitantonio Liuzzi

... and that's only 2006. All drivers with nothing to show. A win here and there but nothing real and consistant. No MS, No FA, and for sure no KR.

Give me a fncking break and let's see what marco or gram or speed does over a period of time. Racing in the US is on par with anything else. Not only that, we can prove it (if you are too ignorant to accept that don't ask)

fnck off!

[jjanicke]

Scott Speed just like Michael Andretti was over hyped, and it would appear that Marco Andretti is going to receive the same treatment, which makes me think he'll go the same way i.e. a complete no hoper. Let the driving do the talking not the poor attitude and lack of respect for just how hard F1 is.

Indy Racing changes it's name so often I'm not unduly bothered what it's called, it is and always will be for ex F1 has beens and never will be drivers.

Please explain how SP was "over hyped"?



I don't know if the old forum is still viewable but if it is go and read all the rubbish posted by the Americans re Scott Spped in GP2 it was pure bull from start to finish how he was going to do this, do that etc blah blah.

Re Michael Andretti, if this if that, if my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle.

Justin Wilson was pretty rubbish in F1 but no suprise he can mix it Stateside as it's second rate to F1. Same story with many F1 failures.

Button & Hamilton are talented, Michael Andretti & Scott Speed aren't in the same league, we'll have to wait and see what Marco goes.

Did you just say "aunty"? 'nuff said! LOL!!!!


Whatever the reasons behind Andretti's failures were, In F1 world and Europe Andretti was a laughing stock in 1993, that's a fact and his talent is not confirmed on this side of the pond at all. I'm sure he was better than his results but he probably underestimated the commitment needed in f1, his physical condition, for example, seemed to be on the junky side. (what is it with American drivers, looking at nascar or open-wheel, most of them don't look like athletes?) Also He didn't do a lot of testing but many drivers have been in the same situation and have performed better, Häkkinen for example, put his old Lotus 13th on the grid in his first gp with virtually no testing at all.

Are you sure you know what you're talking about? We're all fat after all, right! That's what you're saying, isn't it! Pardon if I misread.

[jjanicke]

Hamilton has won championships in Europe where the world's talent races, not in America, see the subtle difference?

Winning in America is meaningless as the real talent is in Europe.


Tell that to Phil and Mario!



Yep most of the front runners tried to get into F1 but weren't good enough. There's even a woman that goes well in IRL it's that dire.

If you knew your facts, you'd know how well that woman actually did! And I'm not even trying to degrad what she has accomplished in her short carreer.

You sound like a douche bag! (and I'm sure you know what that means... if not! look it up)




Exactly the cream will always float to the top.

The fact that I can see the likes of Wilson and Firman for not being that great is where I differ from some as they just see all of their nation's drivers as the best ever, they are blinkered by nationalistic fever and jingoism. The very fact some just won’t admit that the likes of Michael Andretti and Scott Speed are a bit pants proves my point.

You'are an embarrassment to yourself!

[jjanicke]

Nürburgring vs. Indy oval

Oh yes going round in circles is mega tough

Face facts, they are rubbish.

wow, you are a genius. let's forget about Laguna Seca and Sears Points and Watkins Glen and Road America and .....

Let's compare oval track racing to road tack racing. Genius, fncking genius, why didn't I think of that?

[jjanicke]

How is it sexist, women are not as good race drivers as men, fact, deal with it.





What the hell has Miss World got to do with racing? Granted some of the women from countries such as Brazil and Mexico are very pretty but they still aren't American. You can tell they aren't septics because they don't have big hair and aren't obese.

This really is scraping the bottom of the barrel.



JV & JPM are not American, how do you not get that?

They are from Columbia and Canada, not America, do you own an Atlas?

North America, South America! 'nuff said!

I wish I was a dumb ass and didn't undestand this!

[jjanicke]

JV only did well when he had the best F1 car by a country mile, as soon as his car wasn't the best he flopped.

JPM was quick but erratic.

The fact they were both a lot better than their rivals in America again just proves how few good drivers there are in America.

But the fact that neither are American means that since Mario Andretti (who of course had Italian connections) there has not been a decent driver from the USA. Maybe Marco will be the exception that proves the rule, maybe he won't, only time will tell.

Marco is Italian. As are millions of americans. What's your point again?


Looks right on topic to me matey!
Very few Americans bother to take on 'world class' karting, which is the FIA/CIK European championships. Pat Long and Brandon Miller did, I recall. However most Americans would only do their own junior national stuff, skipping senior karting going on to their own national car racing series, which only usually leads to Ovals. I think you'll find good ole Grandad made the call to Gil at Honda F1.


Wait... wait.... let me have the chance of making milllions, or let me make millions .... nope my pride tells to me to stuggle and not make millions ... no wonder!!

I'll take the million thank you!

[jjanicke]

Indy Racing League star Marco Andretti, son of former McLaren driver Michael and grandson of 1978 world champion Mario, had his first taste of an F1 car thanks to Honda.

The 19-year-old American was two seconds off the pace of Honda test driver James Rossiter.

Mmmmm true to usual American form, i.e. pretty crap. Not a patch on Davidson, Pafett, Piquet, Kubicia and Hamilton.

LOL..... Isn't Mika a 2 time WC and european? One of my favourite driver...

How did he do in 2006? in a mclaren no less!


Sam Hornish won the Indy 500 not Marco Andretti

You serously can't be this dull!

Yes, he said he doesn't want to contend for the F1 title until he's won Indy.

Wake upi! Yawn!!!!!

[jjanicke]

So what is Barrichello, a Brazilian or a South American? Bearing in mind how passionate he is about his native Brazil, I don;t think I've ever heard him refer to himself as a South American.

I'm Lancastrian, then English, then British, then European and in that order.

Face it Americans are crap ...., well lets face it they are pretty average at most things.

yes we are!? and I'll take this one personally. Let's go!

1 Exxon Mobil 339,938.0 36,130.0
2 Wal-Mart Stores 315,654.0 11,231.0
3 Royal Dutch Shell 306,731.0 25,311.0
4 BP 267,600.0 22,341.0
5 General Motors 192,604.0 -10,567.0
6 Chevron 189,481.0 14,099.0
7 DaimlerChrysler 186,106.3 3,536.3
8 Toyota Motor 185,805.0 12,119.6
9 Ford Motor 177,210.0 2,024.0
10 ConocoPhillips 166,683.0 13,529.0
11 General Electric 157,153.0 16,353.0
12 Total 152,360.7 15,250.0
13 ING Group 138,235.3 8,958.9
14 Citigroup 131,045.0 24,589.0
15 AXA 129,839.2 5,186.5
16 Allianz 121,406.0 5,442.4
17 Volkswagen 118,376.6 1,391.7
18 Fortis 112,351.4 4,896.3
19 Crédit Agricole 110,764.6 7,434.3
20 American Intl. Group 108,905.0 10,477.0
21 Assicurazioni Generali 101,403.8 2,384.0
22 Siemens 100,098.7 2,854.9
23 Sinopec 98,784.9 2,668.4
24 Nippon Telegraph & Telephone 94,869.3 4,404.6
25 Carrefour 94,454.5 1,784.3
26 HSBC Holdings 93,494.0 15,873.0
27 ENI 92,603.3 10,919.7
28 Aviva 92,579.4 3,211.4
29 Intl. Business Machines 91,134.0 7,934.0
30 McKesson 88,050.0 751.0
31 Honda Motor 87,510.7 5,273.2
32 State Grid 86,984.3 1,073.5
33 Hewlett-Packard 86,696.0 2,398.0
34 BNP Paribas 85,687.2 7,271.5
35 PDVSA 85,618.0 4,661.0
36 UBS 84,707.6 11,257.5
37 Bank of America Corp. 83,980.0 16,465.0
38 Hitachi 83,596.3 329.6
39 China National Petroleum 83,556.5 12,950.0
40 Pemex 83,381.7 -7,001.7
41 Nissan Motor 83,273.8 4,575.6
42 Berkshire Hathaway 81,663.0 8,528.0
43 Home Depot 81,511.0 5,838.0
44 Valero Energy 81,362.0 3,590.0
45 J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. 79,902.0 8,483.0
46 Samsung Electronics 78,716.6 7,458.8
47 Matsu****a Electric Industrial 78,557.7 1,363.8
48 Deutsche Bank 76,227.6 4,385.0
49 HBOS 75,798.8 5,870.4
50 Verizon Communications 75,111.9 7,397.0
51 Cardinal Health 74,915.1 1,050.7
52 Prudential 74,744.7 1,359.5
53 Nestlé 74,658.6 6,415.5
54 Deutsche Telekom 74,061.8 6,938.5
55 Dexia Group 72,814.3 2,532.3
55 Metro 72,814.3 659.8
57 Credit Suisse 72,193.5 4,694.3
58 Royal Bank of Scotland 71,164.3 9,997.8
59 Tesco 71,127.6 2,820.8
60 Peugeot 69,915.4 1,278.6
61 U.S. Postal Service 69,907.0 1,445.0
62 Altria Group 69,148.0 10,435.0
63 Zurich Financial Services 67,186.0 3,214.0
64 E.ON 66,313.2 9,203.7
65 Sony 66,025.6 1,091.8
66 Vodafone 65,314.2 -39,092.9
67 Société Générale 64,441.9 5,524.4
68 Électricité De France 63,434.1 4,028.4
69 Nippon Life Insurance 61,158.3 1,812.5
70 Statoil 61,032.7 4,768.7
71 France Télécom 60,932.9 7,093.8
72 LG 60,574.1 587.5
73 Kroger 60,552.9 958.0
74 Munich Re Group 60,255.7 3,318.9
75 Deutsche Post 59,989.8 2,777.1
76 State Farm Insurance Cos 59,223.9 3,241.8
77 Marathon Oil 58,958.0 3,032.0
78 BMW 57,973.1 2,782.1
79 Fiat 57,833.9 1,653.9
80 Hyundai Motor 57,434.9 2,268.7
81 Procter & Gamble 56,741.0 7,257.0
82 ABN AMRO Holding 56,614.9 5,444.9
83 Royal Ahold 56,427.3 165.3
84 Repsol YPF 56,423.6 3,876.8
85 Legal & General Group 56,384.8 1,715.7
86 Petrobrás 56,324.0 10,344.0
87 Toshiba 56,028.0 690.6
88 Dell 55,908.0 3,572.0
89 Lloyds TSB Group 55,407.0 4,530.9
90 ThyssenKrupp 55,260.7 1,294.1
91 Boeing 54,848.0 2,572.0
92 AmerisourceBergen 54,589.6 264.6
93 Santander Central Hispano Group 53,848.8 7,728.9
94 BASF 53,113.3 3,736.0
95 Costco Wholesale 52,935.2 1,063.1
96 Suez 52,742.9 3,122.2
97 Target 52,620.0 2,408.0
98 Morgan Stanley 52,498.0 4,939.0
99 Robert Bosch 52,207.6 2,918.8
100 Renault 51,365.1 4,183.7

..... 5+ out of the top 10 and then.....


Sounds pretty average to me!!!!

[DexDexter]

why thre is no longer any American car maker at F1 ? the only one is...Chrysler with Mercedes :D ,it's a shame that Ford withdrewn, and GM is not there !

about US drivers, Marco Andretti could find a ride at F1 with his talent, but its all about sponsors and money there and even a 3 times CCWS champion didn't find any one there in exeption of a "test drive" at Jerez

:)


Offtopic but....
You think getting an F1 ride is all about sponsors and money? Really, if that's the case, I don't understand why there are two Finnish drivers driving two of the top cars next year.

[Subaru WRX]

yes it is all if no, why drivers like Iden Yamamoto, Klien, Yoong, .... are or were at F1 ??!!

[Subaru WRX]

yes it is all about sponsors, if no, why drivers like Iden Yamamoto, Klien, Yoong, .... are or were at F1 ??!!

[Ranger]

yes it is all about sponsors, if no, why drivers like Iden Yamamoto, Klien, Yoong, .... are or were at F1 ??!!

The word "all" in that quote detracts from the rest of your post.

Look at Button, Webber, Heidfeld. Look at Trulli, Fisichella and Ralf. Look at DC and Rubens. Look at Alonso and Raikkonen.

Despite how some of these drivers are rubbished by many on this forum, they did not get into F1 by sponsors.

No driver gets into F1 on sponsors alone. If they get to F1 there must have been at least a strong display of talent in the first place.

The fact that half of the above drivers have stayed in F1 for more than five years means that, if they did get any sponsorship, then it was well warranted, as obviously their respective teams think they are good enough to drive after those years.

[Roamy]

edited

[Jag_Warrior]

why thre is no longer any American car maker at F1 ? the only one is...Chrysler with Mercedes :D ,it's a shame that Ford withdrewn, and GM is not there !

Both GM and Ford (and more recently, the Chrysler Group) have their major problems in the North American market. F1 has a relatively small following in that market, and only two races. Then there is the expense of Formula One. In their current situation, the cost/benefit doesn't justify involvement in F1.

Out of pure sentiment, I would have liked to see Ford partner with Cosworth and badge an engine for Williams. But there's no way that (struggling) Ford could compete with Toyota in the money war that F1 has become.

[jso1985]

So how many women have won F1 races or championships? Only good female driver was Michelle Mouton.


How many were interested compared to men? if they're crap, what are then Buddy Rice, A.J. Foyt IV, and all the male drivers Danica Patrick beated this year?

But taking count your xenophobia against everything American, I guess I should sto discussing with you, pretty pointless right now...

heck, I don't even like USA much but average at everything? haven't they won more gold at the olympics than any other country?

[Bagwan]

Wind'em up and watch'em go , Mr Midnight , sir .

You seem bent on becoming the forum bigot , slapping labels where you please . It seems to have a few people upset , if you hadn't noticed .

Are you saying that Marco has no chance of success in F1 ?
If so , is it because he is from the US ?

Just clear that much up for me , please .


This debate is a mess . Perhaps we can get back to a reasonable discussion .

[Bolton Midnight]

Not a big fan of drag racing are you?




It's not proper racing, explains why it's big in America, as the cars and drivers can't do corners.



No offense buddy but lets get dirty (you want to fight.. so let's go). Who are these mother fnckers (and I like them and believe they belong in F1):

Felipe Massa
Giancarlo Fisichella
Jenson Button
Rubens Barrichello
Nick Heidfeld
Ralf Schumacher
Pedro de la Rosa
Jarno Trulli
David Coulthard
Mark Webber
Christian Klien
Vitantonio Liuzzi

... and that's only 2006. All drivers with nothing to show. A win here and there but nothing real and consistant. No MS, No FA, and for sure no KR.

Give me a fncking break and let's see what marco or gram or speed does over a period of time. Racing in the US is on par with anything else. Not only that, we can prove it (if you are too ignorant to accept that don't ask)

fnck off!

Rubbish no American driver since Mario Andretti has come close to those you've listed and on the evidence so far none will for some time to come. Wonder if Rahal will be as poor as his dad was at Jaguar, clueless he was, totally out of his depth.


How many were interested compared to men? if they're crap, what are then Buddy Rice, A.J. Foyt IV, and all the male drivers Danica Patrick beated this year?

heck, I don't even like USA much but average at everything? haven't they won more gold at the olympics than any other country?

Just proves they are even worse than she is, which really is saying something, it's a crap series for crap racers.

Yes they have won quite a lot of Golds but a) they are a pretty big country pro rata they are doing worse than Luxemburg and b) lucky they abolished slavery as had they not your medal count would be drastically slashed.



You seem bent on becoming the forum bigot , slapping labels where you please . It seems to have a few people upset , if you hadn't noticed .

Are you saying that Marco has no chance of success in F1 ?
If so , is it because he is from the US ?



The truth often upsets those unable to accept it and that's why they will continue to flounder in this stupid belief that everything American is great and wonderful when the rest of the world knows it's second rate at best.

So far Marco has proved that the best of the Stateside series are way below what is required in Europe and F1 in particular, but the rest of the world already knows that, just a few dumb asses that don't.

[Bagwan]

The truth often upsets those unable to accept it and that's why they will continue to flounder in this stupid belief that everything American is great and wonderful when the rest of the world knows it's second rate at best.

So far Marco has proved that the best of the Stateside series are way below what is required in Europe and F1 in particular, but the rest of the world already knows that, just a few dumb asses that don't.

So , I will take that as a yes , then , will I ?

You praise his grandfather , but then , he's Italian , right ?
He cut his teeth in the good ol' US .

There have been a few Yanks that have done pretty well , Bolton .
To dismiss Marco outright , for being born American , and raised in the American racing environment is pretty petty .
How did you like that demo at Indy where Jeffy got within a second of Juan in a few laps ? You think Juan slowed down for Jeffy ?
Do you think Jeffy will slow down for Juan , now he's in that cup car ?

Oh , yeah , I guess Juan is South American , being Columbian .


While it is true that not everything American is great , it is not true that it is second rate at best .
Your bias against America is no different from those about whom you generalize .


Marco is not necessarily the best that there is , stateside , but has , at least some good experience he can draw from his lineage , and a boatload of potential in the marketting end of things .
We shall see if he gets more time , as the numbers will mean more to the engineers , than to us .

[pino]

Can you guys continue this in a nice way? I mean no insults, no nationality issues...come on give it a try :)

[Jag_Warrior]

The truth often upsets those unable to accept it and that's why they will continue to flounder in this stupid belief that everything American is great and wonderful when the rest of the world knows it's second rate at best.

Odd that your ignorance is so well rooted that you cannot tell the difference between facts and opinion. Everything American is not great and wonderful. I haven't noticed anyone here suggesting that. We have a great many flaws in a great many areas. But to say that it (everything American) is second rate at best is a further demonstration of your ignorance and prejudice.

I would say it is the greatest desire of most European youngsters, who are racing wannabes, to make it to Formula One. That is not true in the United States. The number of American kids who direct themselves toward formula car racing in general, and F1 specifically, reflects that. You may not like that. You may not agree with the way that young people here see things. Though my guess is you struggle with anyone who doesn't see things your way. But that is the way it is.

People such as yourself are amusing. I'm sure the story behind whatever made you this way would be fascinating. Was it an American G.I. who impregnated your sister and skipped off? An American tourist who slapped you like a woman outside a bar, while on holiday? Maybe you worked at one of the U.K. factories I shut down a couple of years ago? Maybe you're just down on your luck and you're simply envious and jealous. Who knows?

In any case, I know a lot of fine people from the U.K. It's unfortunate that people like you seem to exist only to embarrass them.

A toast to ALL the fine European racing fans on this board during this holiday season. And a lump of coal in the stockings of those little boys (posing as men) who can't play well with others. :p :

[pino]

OK forget my request...thread closed !