Vettel Vs Schumacher at 69 races

[raphael_2]

Sunday was Vettel's 69th race in F1. His stats are as such:

16 wins
22 poles
6 FLs
27 podiums
1 championship

Schumacher after 69 races:

19 wins
10 poles
21 FL's
38 podiums
2 championships

Give or take a few things, both sets of stats are similar. I was personally surprised that Schumacher had amassed quite so many wins and podiums, but it includes 1994 and all but the final race of 1995. I would also add Vettel is probably racing against tougher opponents.

Concerning to think that Schumacher was 26 at his 69th race. Vettel is 23

[ioan]

Difficult to call both stats similar, when the differences are 100% or more.
But there is a trend developing.

[donKey jote]

cue fousto and his tad rant... :p

[ioan]

cue fousto and his tad rant... :p

:rotflmao:

[airshifter]

Difficult to call both stats similar, when the differences are 100% or more.
But there is a trend developing.

Really all we can count that is 100% or greater is titles, which MS obviously wins. But I can't say it's fair to even count fastest laps, as they no longer pay points. MS had incentive back in the day to get fastest lap, in todays F1 is just means you get fastest lap and no points.

IMO poles, fastest laps, laps led, etc don't amount to much. They are great for records, but don't always reflect on the title standings. A pole without a podium or win < a bad start, no fast lap and a podium finish.

[Rollo]

Really all we can count that is 100% or greater is titles, which MS obviously wins. But I can't say it's fair to even count fastest laps, as they no longer pay points. MS had incentive back in the day to get fastest lap, in todays F1 is just means you get fastest lap and no points.

Is this true? I don't recall points being awarded for either the fastest lap or the pole position in my lifetime.
Something tells me that points have never been awarded for pole, and were last awarded for the fastest lap either in 1959 or 1960. I think I remember reading that Jack Brabham had been awarded a point for the fastest lap in a championship year and 1966 seems too late.

[airshifter]

Is this true? I don't recall points being awarded for either the fastest lap or the pole position in my lifetime.
Something tells me that points have never been awarded for pole, and were last awarded for the fastest lap either in 1959 or 1960. I think I remember reading that Jack Brabham had been awarded a point for the fastest lap in a championship year and 1966 seems too late.

Excellent case of brain fade on my part, and I stand corrected.

But I maintain that records are good to have, but title standings and championships are the ones that really matter.

[Hawkmoon]

I think the interesting thing is the difference in conversions from pole to wins/podiums. Schumacher had only 10 poles yet had amassed 19 wins and 38 podiums. Vettel has converted 22 poles into 16 wins and 22 podiums. On face value that suggests that Schumi was more consistent and better at winning from further back on the grid. There are a lot of variables of course - rule changes, qualifying changes, reliability improvements etc - but I would think that Vettel has a chance to accumualte more stats than Schumi for the simple reason that he'll be competing in 25% more races per season than Schumi did for much of his career (16 races for Schumi versus 19 or 20 for Vettel).

[F1boat]

Very interesting! I am surprised that MS is more successful, honestly, maybe because he is older...

[555-04Q2]

Interesting comparison. If Vettel stays at Reb Bull and they continue to be as good as they have been he should pass The Shoe as The Shoe went to Ferrari who were poor at the time and he had a "dry spell" for a few seasons.

Hawk has a point too. In the early days of his career The Shoe used to chase down wins from all over the grid, whereas Vettel has relied on poles to achieve his wins. Lets see what the future holds :)

[Big Ben]

Difficult to call both stats similar, when the differences are 100% or more.
But there is a trend developing.

yes... there is

[CNR]

one thing new engine for qualifying new engine for race testing a fair bit
30 Aug 1992 MS fist win had 17 races ;)
Benetton-Ford Nelson Piquet won a race in 1991

vettel 22 races brfore first win in a 2 year old team :)

[The Black Knight]

Difficult to call both stats similar, when the differences are 100% or more.
But there is a trend developing.

Indeed. Though I still reckon Hamilton would put him to bed from on all out pace if they were in the same team. I think that Vettel is probably the smarter driver at the moment though.

Actually, this whole Vettel Vs Hamilton and who is better is something that has been rattling my brains but I just have that feeling that Lewis would be the faster driver were they in the same team. I'd honestly love to see them in the same car. Sometimes I think Vettel is faster, other times I think it's Lewis that is faster.

That aside, the Shoe may be ahead on current stats, but I doubt Vettel will dominate for years as the Shoe did.

[The Black Knight]

I think the interesting thing is the difference in conversions from pole to wins/podiums. Schumacher had only 10 poles yet had amassed 19 wins and 38 podiums. Vettel has converted 22 poles into 16 wins and 22 podiums. On face value that suggests that Schumi was more consistent and better at winning from further back on the grid. There are a lot of variables of course - rule changes, qualifying changes, reliability improvements etc - but I would think that Vettel has a chance to accumualte more stats than Schumi for the simple reason that he'll be competing in 25% more races per season than Schumi did for much of his career (16 races for Schumi versus 19 or 20 for Vettel).

Good post. I agree, Vettel has the ability to amass better stats. So does Lewis, but I doubt he'll manage that whilst at McLaren. The best way to look at it is probably as a % of races completed.

Anyway, Vettel has nearly alway won from the front. I'd like to see him qualify 4th or 5th and win from there for once. Can anyone think of a race where he has won and not qualified on the first row of the grid? I'd like to see him do this because it's the one thing stopping me from putting him on the level of Alonso and Hamilton in my books. Vettel doesn't excite me because he wins from the front. Alonso and Hamilton have both proved they can win from behind. I'd like to see Vettel do the same and do so a few times.

[Rollo]

Schumacher won the majority of his titles against opposition which contained few previous World Champions. Apart from Villeneuve and Hakkinen, I don't think that any previous world Champion competed in a season which Schumacher won.
(do you include Senna in that list and Mansell who didn't have a full-time drive?)


Vettel has won his only championship thus far against fields which have contained Alonso, Hamilton, Button and Schumacher. Arguably Vettel has faced a higher average quality of driver and has still won.

[The Black Knight]

Schumacher won the majority of his titles against opposition which contained few previous World Champions. Apart from Villeneuve and Hakkinen, I don't think that any previous world Champion competed in a season which Schumacher won.
(do you include Senna in that list and Mansell who didn't have a full-time drive?)


Vettel has won his only championship thus far against fields which have contained Alonso, Hamilton, Button and Schumacher. Arguably Vettel has faced a higher average quality of driver and has still won.

World Champion's the Shoe competed against: Prost, Senna, Mansell, Hill, Villeneuve, Haikkonen, Raikkonen, Alonso. Whether they were previous world champions or not is pretty much a mute point. If the shoe hadn't won his 7 title we could potentially have 4 or 5 different world champions. They weren't world champion's while Schumacher was around, except Alonso, because he kept beating them.

[raphael_2]

The reason no one recalls any races where Vettel has really had to fight for victory when he's been behind is because they don't exist. All but two of Vettel's victory come from pole position, where he has lead going into T1, and gone on to coast to victory. The only races this wasn't the case was Abu Dhabi in 2009, where Lewis got pole but had brake problems in the race and eventually retired, and Barcelona this year, when Alonso jumped him at the start.

When he has had to fight from further back, or in slightly inferior equipment, to say he has fallen flat on his face would be harsh, however he has not shown to be great, clumsy would sum it up quite well I think. Similar in that respect, to Felipe Massa. This season he hasn't put himself in a position where he has had to fight from further back than the first row, so we can't criticise him for that, however as you say.... he is very much unproven.

[Hawkmoon]

The reason no one recalls any races where Vettel has really had to fight for victory when he's been behind is because they don't exist. All but two of Vettel's victory come from pole position, where he has lead going into T1, and gone on to coast to victory. The only races this wasn't the case was Abu Dhabi in 2009, where Lewis got pole but had brake problems in the race and eventually retired, and Barcelona this year, when Alonso jumped him at the start.

When he has had to fight from further back, or in slightly inferior equipment, to say he has fallen flat on his face would be harsh, however he has not shown to be great, clumsy would sum it up quite well I think. Similar in that respect, to Felipe Massa. This season he hasn't put himself in a position where he has had to fight from further back than the first row, so we can't criticise him for that, however as you say.... he is very much unproven.

The Massa comparison is interesting and I tend to agree with it. Massa was virtually unbeatable from pole a couple of seasons ago but rarely threatened from further back on the grid. Having said that I think Vettel is better than Massa ever was.

[Retro Formula 1]

The reason no one recalls any races where Vettel has really had to fight for victory when he's been behind is because they don't exist. All but two of Vettel's victory come from pole position, where he has lead going into T1, and gone on to coast to victory. The only races this wasn't the case was Abu Dhabi in 2009, where Lewis got pole but had brake problems in the race and eventually retired, and Barcelona this year, when Alonso jumped him at the start.

When he has had to fight from further back, or in slightly inferior equipment, to say he has fallen flat on his face would be harsh, however he has not shown to be great, clumsy would sum it up quite well I think. Similar in that respect, to Felipe Massa. This season he hasn't put himself in a position where he has had to fight from further back than the first row, so we can't criticise him for that, however as you say.... he is very much unproven.

I was thinking along similar lines.

Seb has the stats which cannot be denied but my opinion is that he is an exceptional driver in the right equipment. I think that if they were both in the same car, at the same point of their career, then the Shoe would dominate as would Hamilton or Alonso for that matter.

I think that when Ferrari and McLaren get on a level par, Seb will struggle.

[Rollo]

World Champion's the Shoe competed against: Prost, Senna, Mansell, Hill, Villeneuve, Haikkonen, Raikkonen, Alonso. Whether they were previous world champions or not is pretty much a mute point. If the shoe hadn't won his 7 title we could potentially have 4 or 5 different world champions. They weren't world champion's while Schumacher was around, except Alonso, because he kept beating them.

In 1994 Schumacher competed against only Senna and Mansell as previous world Champions (Hill would not be champion until 1996). Senna was only in 3 races and Mansell was only in 4.
In 1995 apart from Mansell who was only in 2 races, there were no previous world champions.
In 2000 Hill had retired, Villeneuve was in a rubbish car (and would continue to be in one until his career blew over) so the only previous World Champion with any ability to challenge against him was Hakkinen.
From 2001-2004 Schumacher had no real challenge from anyone who had been a previous World Champion at all.

Vettel won in 2010 with three previous World Champions and all of who were in moderately adequate cars. Schumacher might have been the best driver around, but comparitively his opposition was lesser.

[ArrowsFA1]

From 2001-2004 Schumacher had no real challenge from anyone who had been a previous World Champion at all...Schumacher might have been the best driver around, but comparitively his opposition was lesser.
True, but it could be argued that he raced against, and sometimes beat, the likes of Senna, Prost, and Piquet so by 2001 he hald already proven himself against some of the best drivers the sport has seen.

Good though the likes of Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton are I'm not sure they can (yet) be compared with Schumacher's opposition, at least in the early part of his F1 career.

[555-04Q2]

True, but it could be argued that he raced against, and sometimes beat, the likes of Senna, Prost, and Piquet so by 2001 he hald already proven himself against some of the best drivers the sport has seen.

Good though the likes of Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton are I'm not sure they can (yet) be compared with Schumacher's opposition, at least in the early part of his F1 career.

:up:

Modern F1 cars are also a lot easier to drive these days compared the the 90's where it was easier to make a mistake.

[raphael_2]

:up:

Modern F1 cars are also a lot easier to drive these days compared the the 90's where it was easier to make a mistake.

Are you talking from first hand experience?

The drivers can only drive what they are given. Don't think we can criticise one era against another for something they have no control over.

[Bagwan]

:up:

Modern F1 cars are also a lot easier to drive these days compared the the 90's where it was easier to make a mistake.

Yeah , not so sure you can say that right now , as there have been many complaints about how awkward it is to be changing gear , applying KERS , and deploying the DRS , all at roughly the same time .
And , last year they were taking one hand off the wheel at some teams , to gain aero advantage .

Those things don't make it easier .

The more things change , the more they stay the same .
In this biz , the machine will always push the human as far as is possible .

[Robinho]

another way to look at it is that when Vettel has a car good enough to win with he sticks it on pole. when he hasn't started pole maybe the car has not been enough to win. MS maybe had a better race car than qually car in his early years and was able to race to wins. just speculation, but it is very difficult to equate lack of wins from anything other than front row to an inability to race to the front. It could just mean that Vettel is able to extract the max every time in qually, thus making it easier to win the resulting race

[steveaki13]

I agree with those talking about Vettels wins all being from the front row or so.

I feel he is the most consistent driver on the grid, and if Hamilton was in the same team, Vettel could beat Hamilton from the front, but if you needed a race from the back, you would think Vettel may struggle.

I really would like to see a race soon where Vettel has to start from 10th and see where he gets.

[ioan]

I think the interesting thing is the difference in conversions from pole to wins/podiums. Schumacher had only 10 poles yet had amassed 19 wins and 38 podiums. Vettel has converted 22 poles into 16 wins and 22 podiums. On face value that suggests that Schumi was more consistent and better at winning from further back on the grid. There are a lot of variables of course - rule changes, qualifying changes, reliability improvements etc - but I would think that Vettel has a chance to accumualte more stats than Schumi for the simple reason that he'll be competing in 25% more races per season than Schumi did for much of his career (16 races for Schumi versus 19 or 20 for Vettel).

MS has always been more about race craft, often winning races in not so fast cars, something he has been probably the best ever in F1.

[ioan]

one thing new engine for qualifying new engine for race testing a fair bit
30 Aug 1992 MS fist win had 17 races ;)
Benetton-Ford Nelson Piquet won a race in 1991

vettel 22 races brfore first win in a 2 year old team :)


I wouldn't call the ex Minardi a 2 years old team.

[ioan]

In 1994 Schumacher competed against only Senna and Mansell as previous world Champions (Hill would not be champion until 1996). Senna was only in 3 races and Mansell was only in 4.

But then again MS did beat Senna in 100% of those races and was on course to beating him for a 4th time when Senna had his accident.

Trying to belittle a 7 times F1 champion is something that you should reconsider IMO.

[ioan]

True, but it could be argued that he raced against, and sometimes beat, the likes of Senna, Prost, and Piquet so by 2001 he hald already proven himself against some of the best drivers the sport has seen.

Good though the likes of Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton are I'm not sure they can (yet) be compared with Schumacher's opposition, at least in the early part of his F1 career.

Exactly. I fear that many people around here weren't yet watching F1 20 years ago, and they base their opinions on hearsay and a biased British press who never liked MS.

[Rollo]

Trying to belittle a 7 times F1 champion is something that you should reconsider IMO.

Reconsidering:

.
..
...
....
.....
......
failed.

No. Belittling will continue :D As you were gentlemen... or mentlegen... gentlementlemen... watchmen?

[ioan]

Yeah , not so sure you can say that right now , as there have been many complaints about how awkward it is to be changing gear , applying KERS , and deploying the DRS , all at roughly the same time .
And , last year they were taking one hand off the wheel at some teams , to gain aero advantage .

All of these on a straight!
Most of us use several dial on a steering wheel in heavy traffic while driving to work and back, it is not really that difficult, is it?
Hell we even use a real lever to shift gears.

[ioan]

Reconsidering:

.
..
...
....
.....
......
failed.

No. Belittling will continue :D As you were gentlemen... or mentlegen... gentlementlemen... watchmen?

Good luck failing then! ;)

[ioan]

Are we supposed to compare the two drivers but be careful not to suggest any of Schumachers races/championships were won under anything other than sheer brilliance just incase we mildly offend some of the over sensitive souls? :eek:

It was sheer brilliance, sometimes it was the driver sometimes the engineer. Over to you. ;)

[Garry Walker]

Why is Rapunzel being compared to one of the greatest sportsman ever? Rapunzel is nothing without his sugardaddy Helmet Marko and by far the best car. He barely took the title last year in a car with what it should have been settled 4 races before the season ended (especially considering how awful Alonso was throughout the season) and he managed to lose the title in the clearly best car in 2009. So before comparing Rapunzel with Schumacher, let him first prove he is a top 2 driver in F1, he is yet to do that. Alonso and Hamilton would both do massive dumps on him in equal cars.


But then again MS did beat Senna in 100% of those races and was on course to beating him for a 4th time when Senna had his accident.

Imola was the 3rd race and Senna was leading the race before his car failed.

[ioan]

My bad. I'll better go catch some sleep now :crazy:

[Rollo]

Good luck failing then! ;)

OK. Will do.

http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/8/82/Epic-fail-guy-dance.gif

[Hawkmoon]

Yeah , not so sure you can say that right now , as there have been many complaints about how awkward it is to be changing gear , applying KERS , and deploying the DRS , all at roughly the same time .
And , last year they were taking one hand off the wheel at some teams , to gain aero advantage .

Those things don't make it easier .

The more things change , the more they stay the same .
In this biz , the machine will always push the human as far as is possible .

Personally I figure trying to manage which button to push on the steering wheel is much easier than trying to manage 1000bhp with relatively little aero grip while changing gear manually and steering a car without power steering.

[ArrowsFA1]

Rapunzel is nothing without his sugardaddy Helmet Marko and by far the best car.
Not true. We've seen how Marko and Red Bull can be ruthless when it comes to their driver programme. If a driver does not perform they're out. The fact is Vettel has produced the performances and results and is far from being "nothing".

Yes, he currently has the best car but the same could be said of Schumacher for the majority of his title wins. The top drivers invariably end up in the best cars; it's no coincidence.

[The Black Knight]

Why is Rapunzel being compared to one of the greatest sportsman ever? Rapunzel is nothing without his sugardaddy Helmet Marko and by far the best car. He barely took the title last year in a car with what it should have been settled 4 races before the season ended (especially considering how awful Alonso was throughout the season) and he managed to lose the title in the clearly best car in 2009. So before comparing Rapunzel with Schumacher, let him first prove he is a top 2 driver in F1, he is yet to do that. Alonso and Hamilton would both do massive dumps on him in equal cars.


Imola was the 3rd race and Senna was leading the race before his car failed.

Schumacher was right on his tail though and looked to have the measure of Senna to me.

[The Black Knight]

In 1994 Schumacher competed against only Senna and Mansell as previous world Champions (Hill would not be champion until 1996). Senna was only in 3 races and Mansell was only in 4.
In 1995 apart from Mansell who was only in 2 races, there were no previous world champions.
In 2000 Hill had retired, Villeneuve was in a rubbish car (and would continue to be in one until his career blew over) so the only previous World Champion with any ability to challenge against him was Hakkinen.
From 2001-2004 Schumacher had no real challenge from anyone who had been a previous World Champion at all.

Vettel won in 2010 with three previous World Champions and all of who were in moderately adequate cars. Schumacher might have been the best driver around, but comparitively his opposition was lesser.

No he didn't have any challenge from anyone who had been a previous WC because he simply kept blowing any potential WC out of the water. I still fail to see the relevance you're trying to convey about their being previous WC's. Just because they weren't WC's at the time doesn't mean they weren't at the level of driving required. For example, I'd definitely say that Kimi 2003 was better than Kimi 2007 and Schuey still beat him.

[ArrowsFA1]

No he didn't have any challenge from anyone who had been a previous WC because he simply kept blowing any potential WC out of the water.
So what happened in 2005-6? Why was he unable to blow Alonso out of the water? Could it be that Renault produced a car capable of challenging Ferrari, something no team had managed between 2001-4? And if that's the case could it not be true that Schumacher had a car advantage during the 2001-4 period which meant that the only potential WC was his team-mate?

A driver can win the odd race in an inferior car, but is unlikely to be able to sustain winning performances in a car that is not up to the job. Schumacher in Spain, Moss in Monaco, Villeneuve at Jarama were all examples of drivers winning races more than the car but none of them could convert that kind of performance into a title winning year.

Vettel is riding the crest of a wave at the moment, just as Schumacher did at Ferrari. Full of confidence, a good but slightly slower team-mate, the best car, the best team. It's the combination every driver wants, but few are fortunate to get.

[555-04Q2]

Are you talking from first hand experience?

The drivers can only drive what they are given. Don't think we can criticise one era against another for something they have no control over.

No. But several drivers have stated that modern F1 cars are easier than the older ones to drive. I also remember Jackie Stewart saying that his Stewart F1 car he tested around Silverstone was far easier to drive than the cars he drove in his F1 racing days.

[555-04Q2]

Why is Rapunzel being compared to one of the greatest sportsman ever? Rapunzel is nothing without his sugardaddy Helmet Marko and by far the best car. He barely took the title last year in a car with what it should have been settled 4 races before the season ended (especially considering how awful Alonso was throughout the season) and he managed to lose the title in the clearly best car in 2009. So before comparing Rapunzel with Schumacher, let him first prove he is a top 2 driver in F1, he is yet to do that. Alonso and Hamilton would both do massive dumps on him in equal cars.


Imola was the 3rd race and Senna was leading the race before his car failed.

Because no matter how good the car is, you still have to get it to the end of the race consistantly to win a WDC, which Vettel did last year and is doing again this year.

[555-04Q2]

So what happened in 2005-6? Why was he unable to blow Alonso out of the water? Could it be that Renault produced a car capable of challenging Ferrari, something no team had managed between 2001-4? And if that's the case could it not be true that Schumacher had a car advantage during the 2001-4 period which meant that the only potential WC was his team-mate?

In 2005 the Ferrari was only the fourth best car yet The Shoe managed to finish third in the WDC standing. But 2006 showed how good Alonso was. Yes the Renault was as good as the Ferrari, but Alonso was young, motivated, fast and was able to match and beat The Shoe. Alonso is the best of the modern day F1 drivers.

[The Black Knight]

So what happened in 2005-6? Why was he unable to blow Alonso out of the water? Could it be that Renault produced a car capable of challenging Ferrari, something no team had managed between 2001-4? And if that's the case could it not be true that Schumacher had a car advantage during the 2001-4 period which meant that the only potential WC was his team-mate?

A driver can win the odd race in an inferior car, but is unlikely to be able to sustain winning performances in a car that is not up to the job. Schumacher in Spain, Moss in Monaco, Villeneuve at Jarama were all examples of drivers winning races more than the car but none of them could convert that kind of performance into a title winning year.

Vettel is riding the crest of a wave at the moment, just as Schumacher did at Ferrari. Full of confidence, a good but slightly slower team-mate, the best car, the best team. It's the combination every driver wants, but few are fortunate to get.

Of course car has a lot to do with it but we're talking about having previous WC's on the grid. I'm trying to convey that his point about whether there was a previous world champion on the grid or not is a mute one. The best drivers in the world are always in F1 and that's it. Unless you can convey to me that for some reason the level of talent in the world suddenly duped even though Alonso and Raikkonen were also present on the grid then the point about their being previous world champions or future ones on the grid is bull****. From 1995-2006 Schuey was regarded as the best in the world because he was. I can't think of any other driver that has ever asserted a level of dominance even close to what he achieved. He did so because he was the best, if he wasn't he could not have managed it.

[555-04Q2]

Of course car has a lot to do with it but we're talking about having previous WC's on the grid. I'm trying to convey that his point about whether there was a previous world champion on the grid or not is a mute one. The best drivers in the world are always in F1 and that's it. Unless you can convey to me that for some reason the level of talent in the world suddenly duped even though Alonso and Raikkonen were also present on the grid then the point about their being previous world champions or future ones on the grid is bull****. From 1995-2006 Schuey was regarded as the best in the world because he was. I can't think of any other driver that has ever asserted a level of dominance even close to what he achieved. He did so because he was the best, if he wasn't he could not have managed it.

The only ones that come to mind are Sebastian Loeb in WRC and Valentino Rossi in Moto GP.

[ArrowsFA1]

Of course car has a lot to do with it but we're talking about having previous WC's on the grid.
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, my post was addressing your claim that Schumacher "simply kept blowing any potential WC out of the water". He certainly did for the first part of the 2000's but could not manage it against Alonso and Renault in 2005-6.

Was that because Schumacher was no longer the best? Could it not be true that Schumacher had a car advantage during the 2001-4 period which meant that the only potential WC was his team-mate?

[The Black Knight]

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, my post was addressing your claim that Schumacher "simply kept blowing any potential WC out of the water". He certainly did for the first part of the 2000's but could not manage it against Alonso and Renault in 2005-6.

Was that because Schumacher was no longer the best? Could it not be true that Schumacher had a car advantage during the 2001-4 period which meant that the only potential WC was his team-mate?

I wouldn't say that Schumacher's 03 Ferrari was vastly superior to the rest of the field. The 02 and 04 Ferrari's were superior however and realistically in those two years no one else had a chance but it still doesn't change the fact that Schuey blew them away, same way that just because Vettel has a superior car now doesn't change the fact that he is blowing away the competition.

In 05 and 06 I would say that Schuey was pretty much past his best. As I said already somewhere, I believe that since 03 he hasn't really been at the same level he was.

[555-04Q2]

Thats a little misleading as he could have easily finished 5th that year due to the US GP only consisting of 6 drivers and was given the easiest win of his career.

Thats like saying he could have finished 10th if some cars hadn't of crashed or DNF'd during the season. Its a non issue :)

[wedge]

Schumacher won the majority of his titles against opposition which contained few previous World Champions. Apart from Villeneuve and Hakkinen, I don't think that any previous world Champion competed in a season which Schumacher won.
(do you include Senna in that list and Mansell who didn't have a full-time drive?)


Vettel has won his only championship thus far against fields which have contained Alonso, Hamilton, Button and Schumacher. Arguably Vettel has faced a higher average quality of driver and has still won.

Not sure if this has any significance but Schumi's era had 16 races a season. Not to mention he was banned for 3 races in 1994.


In 1994 Schumacher competed against only Senna and Mansell as previous world Champions (Hill would not be champion until 1996). Senna was only in 3 races and Mansell was only in 4.
In 1995 apart from Mansell who was only in 2 races, there were no previous world champions.
In 2000 Hill had retired, Villeneuve was in a rubbish car (and would continue to be in one until his career blew over) so the only previous World Champion with any ability to challenge against him was Hakkinen.
From 2001-2004 Schumacher had no real challenge from anyone who had been a previous World Champion at all.

Vettel won in 2010 with three previous World Champions and all of who were in moderately adequate cars. Schumacher might have been the best driver around, but comparitively his opposition was lesser.

What does have racing against a previous champion got to do with anything? Button was champion in 2009 and previous WDC drivers were in crap cars so does that mean Button is better or on par with previous WDC. Hill was WDC in 1996 but Schumi was regarded as a superior driver.


Why is Rapunzel being compared to one of the greatest sportsman ever? Rapunzel is nothing without his sugardaddy Helmet Marko and by far the best car.

I could have sworn Schumi was Golden Boy in Benetton and Ferrari. What did Johnny Herbert call him? Mr Mega! Herbert threw his toys out the pram because Flavio wouldn't let Herbert have a peek at Schumi's telemetry!


:up:

Modern F1 cars are also a lot easier to drive these days compared the the 90's where it was easier to make a mistake.

In Schumi's first full season his Benetton had no fancy gizmos apart from sequential 'box.

[The Black Knight]

I remember reading about that in a book on Schumacher but I did find myself sympathising with Herbert as Schumacher was getting access to Johnny's data. It was abit unfair in that repsect but then again Ross Brawn did say he had a few heated conversations with the young Michael in his early Benetton days because he disliked testing and didn't see any point in it. Brawn is quoted in the book 'The Edge of Greatness' as saying he had to convince Michael the only way to suceed is to understand your car, and that was something Michael picked up fairly quickly. He had a lazy side once upon a time but that was very different to the force he became. :)

I'd love to know where you read that honestly. Everything I've ever read about Schumacher suggests that he was nothing less than an exceptionally motivated, hard working individual from the day he arrived in F1 and even long before then.

[The Black Knight]

Its in the book I mentioned.

What books have you read that you can recommend on Michael Schumacher?

Ah sorry I missed the book you wrote. I should have read the post properly. I read that book actually I just don't remember that being in it. Considering how much I read that's not surprising, but I can have a look for it. I'll take your word for it ;)

It's a really good book though. ;)

[zako85]

I too would like to believe that Vettel's 2010 competition had been more rigorous than what Schumacher faced in 1994. With Hamilton, Button, Alonso, and Webber breathing down his neck the whole time, the is no comparison IMO. However, I wasn't watching the 1994 season.

[ioan]

I too would like to believe that Vettel's 2010 competition had been more rigorous than what Schumacher faced in 1994. With Hamilton, Button, Alonso, and Webber breathing down his neck the whole time, the is no comparison IMO. However, I wasn't watching the 1994 season.

Funny! :D

[Rollo]

What does have racing against a previous champion got to do with anything? Button was champion in 2009 and previous WDC drivers were in crap cars so does that mean Button is better or on par with previous WDC. Hill was WDC in 1996 but Schumi was regarded as a superior driver.


There is no obvious quantifier of proven talent other than results. Someone who has won the WDC it can be said is up to the standard of WDC material.

Your 1996 example does in fact prove the point. "Hill was WDC in 1996 but Schumi was regarded as a superior driver"; Schumi had by that stage already won the WDC twice.

[ArrowsFA1]

Herbert threw his toys out the pram because Flavio wouldn't let Herbert have a peek at Schumi's telemetry!
I believe this issue was raised by Herbert as an example of the way Schumi had the team working for and around him. While Schumi asked for, and got, access to Herbert's data, there was no two way street. Rather than "throwing his toys out of the pram" Herbert was simply looking for team-mates to share information, and that's not the way things worked.

[wedge]

Rather than "throwing his toys out of the pram" Herbert was simply looking for team-mates to share information, and that's not the way things worked.

Is there a difference between moaning and "throwing toys out the pram", even if it is an 'injustice'?

Or is it down to the eye of the beholder?

Snide acts of favourtism wasn't a Schumi phenomenon.

[ArrowsFA1]

Snide acts of favourtism wasn't a Schumi phenomenon.
You're right. I just thought that describing Herbert as throwing toys or moaning misprepresented the point he was making. He was making the point that while Schumacher had access to his data, he did not have access to Schumacher's. The team condoned that and therefore showed their favouritism, which in turn gave Schumacher an advantage within the team, and advantage which most of us would probably argue he didn't need.

Schumacher is not alone in gaining that advantage. I'm currently reading "Prost Versus Senna (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Senna-Versus-Prost-Malcolm-Folley/dp/0099528096/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1310021990&sr=8-1)" in which there are a couple of similar examples - Prost claiming that Honda, and therefore McLaren, favoured Senna; Mansell getting the hump because Prost spoke Italian with his engineers at Ferrari and seemingly pulled the team around him. Then there's Mansell misleading the team and his team-mate in team de-briefs during the 1992 season, Alonso expecting that advantage at McLaren, and (keepng somewhat to the topic) Red Bull seemingly favouring Vettel in subtle ways.

As I've said before the best drivers invariably end up in the best cars, and when they get there they'll do what they can to maintain whatever advantage they can when it comes to their team-mate and competitors. It's what makes them winners to some extent.

[The Black Knight]

You're right. I just thought that describing Herbert as throwing toys or moaning misprepresented the point he was making. He was making the point that while Schumacher had access to his data, he did not have access to Schumacher's. The team condoned that and therefore showed their favouritism, which in turn gave Schumacher an advantage within the team, and advantage which most of us would probably argue he didn't need.

Schumacher is not alone in gaining that advantage. I'm currently reading "Prost Versus Senna (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Senna-Versus-Prost-Malcolm-Folley/dp/0099528096/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1310021990&sr=8-1)" in which there are a couple of similar examples - Prost claiming that Honda, and therefore McLaren, favoured Senna; Mansell getting the hump because Prost spoke Italian with his engineers at Ferrari and seemingly pulled the team around him. Then there's Mansell misleading the team and his team-mate in team de-briefs during the 1992 season, Alonso expecting that advantage at McLaren, and (keepng somewhat to the topic) Red Bull seemingly favouring Vettel in subtle ways.

As I've said before the best drivers invariably end up in the best cars, and when they get there they'll do what they can to maintain whatever advantage they can when it comes to their team-mate and competitors. It's what makes them winners to some extent.

Indeed. In fact, this was one of the reasons Prost has cited as a reason for his McLaren departure. I remember at one stage, in Suzuka 89 I think it was, he said there were 6 mechanics working around his car and there were 14 around Senna's. He said at that point he knew that McLaren had made the decision of which driver they were throwing their support behind.

[555-04Q2]

Indeed. In fact, this was one of the reasons Prost has cited as a reason for his McLaren departure. I remember at one stage, in Suzuka 89 I think it was, he said there were 6 mechanics working around his car and there were 14 around Senna's. He said at that point he knew that McLaren had made the decision of which driver they were throwing their support behind.

Maybe Senna's car had more problems then Prost's did and that's why he needed double the help :p :

[wedge]

You're right. I just thought that describing Herbert as throwing toys or moaning misprepresented the point he was making. He was making the point that while Schumacher had access to his data, he did not have access to Schumacher's. The team condoned that and therefore showed their favouritism, which in turn gave Schumacher an advantage within the team, and advantage which most of us would probably argue he didn't need.

But there's nothing against the rules for that sort of thing. In Fangio's era Fangio could jump into a team mate's car and continue the race after retiring his original car.

Herbert's beef was actually with Flavio.

Herbert was allowed access to Schumi's data then one day Flavio said no. When Herbert won the 1995 Italian GP he was given the cold shoulder by Flavio.


As I've said before the best drivers invariably end up in the best cars, and when they get there they'll do what they can to maintain whatever advantage they can when it comes to their team-mate and competitors. It's what makes them winners to some extent.

Best summed up by Senna when he told Mansell at the 1992 Australian GP: "Now you know why I'm b*****d because I don't want anybody else to have the same feeling"

Regards to Prost - is there a credible source that he got his mechanics to swap cars with Mansell's, behind Mansell's back? It's a story that's endlessly repeated over the interweb.

[The Black Knight]

One of the things that stood out for me yesterday was that Vettel is not the cream of the crop when he has to race other top level drivers for position. He is great when he is out front but when it comes to battling his way back through the grid, like he should have done yesterday, he was unable to do it. 10 or so laps stuck behind Hamilton with a car that was seconds faster than the McLaren at that stage is simply not good enough. I was disappointed, I must say. However, this all just proves to me that Hamilton and Alonso are still the best drivers out there. Both drove supremely well yesterday.

[vhatever]

One of the things that stood out for me yesterday was that Vettel is not the cream of the crop when he has to race other top level drivers for position. He is great when he is out front but when it comes to battling his way back through the grid, like he should have done yesterday, he was unable to do it. 10 or so laps stuck behind Hamilton with a car that was seconds faster than the McLaren at that stage is simply not good enough. I was disappointed, I must say. However, this all just proves to me that Hamilton and Alonso are still the best drivers out there. Both drove supremely well yesterday.

He was behind hamilton for 3 laps in DRS, towards the end of the life of the tires he was on, too. And the first lap Lewis got to use the DRS on a backmarker car. So he only had 2 laps to try to get passed him. Not a ton of time. And why risk crashing out the race when he knew he could get passed hammy anyway? That's something an idiot like hamilton or webber would do, not someone like Vettel or Alonso.

[vhatever]

Yet you mocked Webber for not getting past his own teammate is just two laps? Which stance is for both arguements as they are identical? Are you scrapping the one above or your Webber arguement?

I didn't mock him for not getting passed a KERS-less vettel. All I said is he couldn't pass him, so the team order was the correct thing to do.

[The Black Knight]

He was behind hamilton for 3 laps in DRS, towards the end of the life of the tires he was on, too. And the first lap Lewis got to use the DRS on a backmarker car. So he only had 2 laps to try to get passed him. Not a ton of time. And why risk crashing out the race when he knew he could get passed hammy anyway? That's something an idiot like hamilton or webber would do, not someone like Vettel or Alonso.

So you're advocating Vettel losing time staying stationery losing seconds behind Hamilton yet you were lauding the FIA scumbags for costing RBR 0.5 secs, probably far less in reality, on pit exit?

You are GOLD! The double standards you've conveyed in your "first" 33 posts here are quite astonishing :D

[wedge]

He was behind hamilton for 3 laps in DRS, towards the end of the life of the tires he was on, too. And the first lap Lewis got to use the DRS on a backmarker car. So he only had 2 laps to try to get passed him. Not a ton of time. And why risk crashing out the race when he knew he could get passed hammy anyway? That's something an idiot like hamilton or webber would do, not someone like Vettel or Alonso.

Alonso made an effort to pass LH in the second stint and did so.

Vettel once again failed to answer critics and his lack of racecraft within top 3 positions.

[steveaki13]

So you're advocating Vettel losing time staying stationery losing seconds behind Hamilton yet you were lauding the FIA scumbags for costing RBR 0.5 secs, probably far less in reality, on pit exit?

You are GOLD! The double standards you've conveyed in your "first" 33 posts here are quite astonishing :D

33 in this lifetime.

[555-04Q2]

Alonso made an effort to pass LH in the second stint and did so.

Vettel once again failed to answer critics and his lack of racecraft within top 3 positions.

I think he has proved quite the opposite. When you are smashing everyone from the front, who needs to risk a pass?

[SGWilko]

I think he has proved quite the opposite. When you are smashing everyone from the front, who needs to risk a pass?

A racer?

[The Black Knight]

A racer?

Woah woah woah! A racer! In F1? No way man. We need to be careful. Wouldn't want a wheels touching or anything that our granny's would flinch at. This is MODERN F1 where the drivers don't have to pass. The stewards in couple with critics that have never raced in their lives are enough to ensure that.

We got to be careful. We only want attempted overtaking moves when they are definitely going to succeed. If they don't succeed then give the driver that attempted the overtake a penalty for causing an avoidable collision. That's F1 nowadays. Bar Lewis, racers are a thing of the past.

[Retro Formula 1]

Woah woah woah! A racer! In F1? No way man. We need to be careful. Wouldn't want a wheels touching or anything that our granny's would flinch at. This is MODERN F1 where the drivers don't have to pass. The stewards in couple with critics that have never raced in their lives are enough to ensure that.

We got to be careful. We only want attempted overtaking moves when they are definitely going to succeed. If they don't succeed then give the driver that attempted the overtake a penalty for causing an avoidable collision. That's F1 nowadays. Bar Lewis, racers are a thing of the past.

:laugh: This is that sarcasm think I've heard so much about, isn't it :laugh:

:up:

[steveaki13]

People bashing Vettel for not being a great passer, but when beating the rest from the front you cant and dont need to pass.

Don't think Vettel will be bothered about not passing people if he wins the title with about 12 or 13 wins.

All that matters for the championship and record books is winning. Its only the fans in 30 years time, who will be concerned that he couldn't pass.

If he in the future needs to pass to win races and can't then he won't win and his records will suffer, until then he's got the rest in the palm of his hand.
If the only thing people can do to bring tension to the title is saying "ah but he needs to win a few races from 10th" then he will be smiling from ere to ere. (ear to ear)

[wedge]

Regards to Prost - is there a credible source that he got his mechanics to swap cars with Mansell's, behind Mansell's back? It's a story that's endlessly repeated over the interweb.

It's true, of course. As mentioned in Mansell's autobiography - DOH!

[vhatever]

So you're advocating Vettel losing time staying stationery losing seconds behind Hamilton yet you were lauding the FIA scumbags for costing RBR 0.5 secs, probably far less in reality, on pit exit?

You are GOLD! The double standards you've conveyed in your "first" 33 posts here are quite astonishing :D

It's better to lose a couple seconds behind hamilton than get crashed out of the race by a swerving idiot who the FIA has a long history of cheating for doubly so at the British GP, where not being british is an immediate 10 second penalty. The only way possible for vettel to lose the WDC at this point is to start not finishing races.

[vhatever]

Vettel was doing the swerving not Hamilton as shown and confirmed by all reliable sources. You seem to be trolling here my friend by attempting to get a rise out of people by highlighting a 'British' bias. The irony is you whining about 'bias' but being incredibly biased yourself it seems. Sorry but you just devalue your point and look inherently stupid in doing so. :down:

You seem to be the type who is allergic to the truth. Tough luck. Too bad anyone who isn't a biased joke who watched this year's British GP got a great look at their wonderful fairness, where two much worse incidents in di Resta and Hamilton got zero punishment and Schumacher got a stop and go. Nope, no bias at the British GP. Talk about inherently stupid.

[SGWilko]

Schumacher got a stop and go.

You realise, do you not, that when the Shoe ran into KK - and I agree it was not intentional - theat he ruined KK's race by punting him into a spin. That cannot go unpunished I am afraid.

[Retro Formula 1]

You seem to be the type who is allergic to the truth. Tough luck. Too bad anyone who isn't a biased joke who watched this year's British GP got a great look at their wonderful fairness, where two much worse incidents in di Resta and Hamilton got zero punishment and Schumacher got a stop and go. Nope, no bias at the British GP. Talk about inherently stupid.

Same old, same old :rolleyes:

I suppose Massa is on Hamiltons side as is Stefano.

Come on me old son. You and a couple of other such people are the only ones that see a problem here. Stop making yourself look foolish again.

[vhatever]

You realise, do you not, that when the Shoe ran into KK - and I agree it was not intentional - theat he ruined KK's race by punting him into a spin. That cannot go unpunished I am afraid.

And? Hamilton stole 4 by playing bumper cars, and Buemi had a freaking puncture, which is way worse. You don't even watch F1, apparently.

[SGWilko]

And? Hamilton stole 4 by playing bumper cars, and Buemi had a freaking puncture, which is way worse. You don't even watch F1, apparently.

Actually, Massa lost 4 by going off track having run out of talent mid corner. Vettel got a puncture at Silverstone in 2010 due to contact, and a penalty wasn't required then, either....

[vhatever]

Actually, Massa lost 4 by going off track having run out of talent mid corner. Vettel got a puncture at Silverstone in 2010 due to contact, and a penalty wasn't required then, either....

It was lewis who ran out of talent the corner before, actually. And why are you chagning the subject to 2010? What is the relevance? The stewards said schumacher's nick of kamui should be a stop and go, and di resta did the same thing with no penalty. The end, you lose.

[SGWilko]

It was lewis who ran out of talent the corner before, actually. And why are you chagning the subject to 2010? What is the relevance? The stewards said schumacher's nick of kamui should be a stop and go, and di resta did the same thing with no penalty. The end, you lose.

DiResta spun Buemi round did he?

Didn't need to be 2010, the relevance was the way the puncture was caused. No winning or losing, just discussing and differeing opinions.

[vhatever]

DiResta spun Buemi round did he?

Didn't need to be 2010, the relevance was the way the puncture was caused. No winning or losing, just discussing and differeing opinions.

No, he punctured his god damn tire. Do you even read?

[SGWilko]

No, he punctured his god damn tire. Do you even read?

No, I can't read I am afraid. In fact, what is it you wrote that I have quoted?

I thought Pirelli did the tyres this year, not god damn by the way........

[vhatever]

The "guest" formula one driver really doesn't have any direct power over the stewards decision. The position is purely that of an adviser.

[SGWilko]

The "guest" formula one driver really doesn't have any direct power over the stewards decision. The position is purely that of an adviser.

You've just nullified your point about bias. Stunning!

[The Black Knight]

You've just nullified your point about bias. Stunning!

I can't stop laughing.

[SGWilko]

I can't stop laughing.

Yes, the moral of the story? Engage brain before posting. :laugh:

[Retro Formula 1]

I can't stop laughing.

:laugh: Do you think there's two of them or was that a true Doh! moment?

[Mia 01]

This thread is a bit of fun,put MS up so you can get Seb down.

Seb has already brooken all of Lewis achievments.

[Mia 01]

So what are you doing bringing Lewis up then? Is Lewis even being discussed here??????

Nope, but most know that he is looking at the stas as he have said, worrying about Seb.

I can understand fans putting MS up.

[Mia 01]

So what has that got to do with measuring vettel against Schumacher after 69 races?
It seems you yourself forgot the thread title when you got the temptation to talk about your favourite topic, Hamilton. Lewis and Seb are young and have plenty of years left to add to their achievements. Lets leave this discussion to another thread. Perhaps you could start one? :)

Ofcourse, thank´s for your advice. I will leave this thread (and so far I also thinks that MS tops Seb but only so far).
But I´m sorry to say, will Lewis ever be up there, he has to change his driving style.

[Dave B]

The "guest" formula one driver really doesn't have any direct power over the stewards decision. The position is purely that of an adviser.
Nice one Tamb :up:

[555-04Q2]

So what are you doing bringing Lewis up then? Is Lewis even being discussed here??????

Lewis is The Shoe's secret love child ;)