Pakistan arrests 5 informants, including pakistani major, for helping USA kill Osama

[markabilly]

and they wonder why they were in the dark............

NYT: Pakistan arrests informants in bin Laden raid - World news - The New York Times - msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43404265/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times)

:rolleyes:

[555-04Q2]

No surprise here. An operation that took the lives of people was conducted without the knowledge / notification of the government of the country that the operation took place in. Imagine what would happen in that had been done in the USA, England, France, Australia etc. All hell would have broken loose.

[Eki]

and they wonder why they were in the dark............

NYT: Pakistan arrests informants in bin Laden raid - World news - The New York Times - msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43404265/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times)

:rolleyes:
Actually they probably were arrested because they were in the dark. The USA had no jurisdiction or authority to operate in Pakistan on their own.

That's also why Italy convicted two CIA agents in 2009:

Italy convicts 'U.S. agents' in CIA kidnap trial - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/11/04/italy.rendition.verdict/index.html)

The US violated the sovereignty of Pakistan and Italy.

[driveace]

They did the correct thing in my eyes.IF they had told the Pakistan Government of their intention to go in after Bin laden,then he would have been told,and they would have missed him AGAIN .How do we know that Bin Laden has not been in their sites before,only for the Americans to tell the Pakistan Government of their intention to go in after him,then after being warned that the Americans were coming to get him,he vanishes again.
They were successful in that mission,so well done to them.

[Bob Riebe]

After listening to the talking heads on TV, one can hope that Pres. Obama ignores their babbling, keeps his mouth shut and when he does say something, it is a line in the sand to the Pakis.

I will give Pres. Obama credit, one of the things he did campaign on was to tell the Pakis-- my way or I will do it without you, and to you.

[anthonyvop]

Actually they probably were arrested because they were in the dark. The USA had no jurisdiction or authority to operate in Pakistan on their own.

That's also why Italy convicted two CIA agents in 2009:

Italy convicts 'U.S. agents' in CIA kidnap trial - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/11/04/italy.rendition.verdict/index.html)

The US violated the sovereignty of Pakistan and Italy.

The US has the right to go after anyone who has attacked us. Anywhere, Any time, Any way we deem fit. Deal with it.

[Eki]

The US has the right to go after anyone who has attacked us. Anywhere, Any time, Any way we deem fit. Deal with it.
Then other countries surely have the same right?

[Roamy]

Then other countries surely have the same right?

Certainly EKI so quit bitching about israel

[Eki]

Certainly EKI so quit bitching about israel
Well, Israel is pretty much the only country that could do as they will in the US.

[Roamy]

Well, Israel is pretty much the only country that could do as they will in the US.

Good idea EKI - we should sell out to Israel and let Benjamin run the whole shooting match !!

[Eki]

Good idea EKI - we should sell out to Israel and let Benjamin run the whole shooting match !!
You've already sold out to Israel.

[Valve Bounce]

As in Casablanca, they rounded up the usual suspects. :D

[Captain VXR]

After listening to the talking heads on TV, one can hope that Pres. Obama ignores their babbling, keeps his mouth shut and when he does say something, it is a line in the sand to the Pakis.

I will give Pres. Obama credit, one of the things he did campaign on was to tell the Pakis-- my way or I will do it without you, and to you.
Please stop using racist terminology
List of ethnic slurs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs#Paki)

[BDunnell]

The US has the right to go after anyone who has attacked us. Anywhere, Any time, Any way we deem fit. Deal with it.

In much the same way, no doubt, as you felt you had the right to go about Europe carrying a firearm the possession of which was illegal in those countries — if this actually happened, which I doubt. Nonetheless, it is worth bringing up as often as possible.

[markabilly]

actually they were suppose to be our allies, with common interests, in hunting down bin laden, but clearly, that was not the game.

Give shelter to the enmemy and expect to be treated the same.
as Mao once said, all power comes out the barrell of a gun

[Captain VXR]

So if a senior Pakistani militant escaped to the USA, would you be happy with the Pakistani army entering American soil to extract them without permission from your government?

[markabilly]

So if a senior Pakistani militant escaped to the USA, would you be happy with the Pakistani army entering American soil to extract them without permission from your government?

depends on who he was and what he did......thing is we also have extradition that we generally honor, and if he was .0001 as bad as bin laden, and hung around for 5 years and we did nothing, then go for it.

[Captain VXR]

depends on who he was and what he did......thing is we also have extradition that we generally honor, and if he was .0001 as bad as bin laden, and hung around for 5 years and we did nothing, then go for it.

The Americans didn't even ask to extradite Bin Laden.
Before I get called a woolly headed hippy socialist, I support his killing by American troops, but think they should've at least asked for permission

[Bob Riebe]

Please stop using racist terminology
List of ethnic slurs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs#Paki)
I learned and started using it from the Pakistanis I went to college with and were very good friends.
THey also had no problem with me calling them "Camel Jocks" even after they told me there are no camel parking lots in Pakistan. (To be more specific, Camel Straights were [actually are if I still smoked] my favorite cigarette, and when I popped out a pack I asked them if the camel on the package made them homesick....)

The Wiki can be useful but far from the last word.

[Bob Riebe]

Then other countries surely have the same right?They have the "right", which is a poor term in this case as there is NO legal backing, to try to do as they wish, if they wish, when they wish, except of course for Qaddafi who was bothering no one, except some Washington twits.

[Eki]

Qaddafi who was bothering no one, except some Washington twits.
Interesting you say that, after many Americans seemed to oppose Scotland free the Lockerbie bomber:

Barack Obama leads condemnation of Scotland for freeing Lockerbie bomber - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/6062496/Barack-Obama-leads-condemnation-of-Scotland-for-freeing-Lockerbie-bomber.html)

BTW, Saddam Hussein wasn't bothering anyone either.

[Bob Riebe]

Interesting you say that, after many Americans seemed to oppose Scotland free the Lockerbie bomber:

Barack Obama leads condemnation of Scotland for freeing Lockerbie bomber - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/6062496/Barack-Obama-leads-condemnation-of-Scotland-for-freeing-Lockerbie-bomber.html)

BTW, Saddam Hussein wasn't bothering anyone either.
The "bomber" is the only thing that Libya was connected to that could cause outrage, but Saddam was killing his citizens, which Qaddafi was not.
As I wrote, Libya had the highest standard of living in the area. That is not a good reason to attack, nor is pay-backs decades after a fact.

George Bush attacking Iraq was silly, and what happened after they went in, was incompetent.

[Eki]

The "bomber" is the only thing that Libya was connected to that could cause outrage, but Saddam was killing his citizens, which Qaddafi was not.
As I wrote, Libya had the highest standard of living in the area. That is not a good reason to attack, nor is pay-backs decades after a fact.

George Bush attacking Iraq was silly, and what happened after they went in, was incompetent.
Saddam hadn't been killing his citizens any more than Qaddafi was since the 1991 shiite uprise encouraged by the US invasion of Iraq in the first Gulf War. So it took over 10 years after the US attacked Saddam. Lot's of water under the bridge. And if the standard of living in Iraq was lower than in Libya, it was because of the first Gulf War and the sanctions that followed. Before the first Gulf War when Saddam was still a friend of the US, the Iraqi standard of living was actually quite good.

By the way, rights groups say some nasty things, like public hangings, about Qaddafi too:

http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/factbox-gaddafi-rule-marked-by-abuses-rights-groups-say/


1970s - ARRESTS, TELEVISED HANGINGS

Rights groups and Gaddafi's foes say that throughout the 1970s police and security forces arrested hundreds of Libyans who opposed, or who the authorities feared could oppose, his rule.

Student demonstrations were put down violently. Political opponents were arrested and imprisoned, or simply disappeared.

Police and security forces rounded up academics, lawyers, students, journalists, Trotskyists, communists, members of the Muslim Brotherhood and others considered "enemies of the revolution", Human Rights Watch says. Gaddafi warned anyone who tried to organise politically they would face repression.

"I could at any moment send them to the People's Court ... and the People's Court will issue a sentence of death based on this law, because execution is the fate of anyone who forms a political party," Gaddafi said in a speech on Nov. 9, 1974.

A number of televised public hangings and mutilations of political opponents followed, rights groups say.

In 1976 Gaddafi authorised the execution of 22 officers who had participated in an attempted coup the previous year, in addition to the execution of several civilians, rights activist Mohamed Eljahmi has written.

1980s: DETENTION, DISAPPEARANCES

In 1980 authorities introduced a policy of extrajudicial executions of political opponents abroad, termed "stray dogs".

According to a 2009 article in Forbes magazine by rights activist Eljahmi, Gaddafi's then deputy Abdel Salam Jalloud issued a public justification in 1980 for the assassination of dissidents abroad, telling Italian media:

"Many people who fled abroad took with them goods belonging to the Libyan people ... Now they are putting their illicit gains at the disposal of the opposition led by (then Egyptian leader Anwar) Sadat, world imperialism, and Israel."

A failed coup attempt in May 1984 apparently mounted by exiles with internal support led to the imprisonment of thousands of people. An unknown number of people were executed.

In 1988 there was a period which appeared to herald important human rights reforms. Authorities freed hundreds of political prisoners in a wide-ranging amnesty.

But more repression ensued in 1989. According to Amnesty International, which had visited the country in 1988, the government instituted "mass arbitrary arrest and detention, `disappearances,' torture, and the death penalty".

One of the main causes of the crackdown was the return to Libya of Libyan citizens from Afghanistan, where they had gone to fight Soviet forces. Some returned home with hopes of overthrowing Gaddafi and installing Islamic rule.

1990s: MASS KILLING AT PRISON

In 1993, after a failed coup attempt in which senior army officers were implicated, Gaddafi began to purge the military periodically, eliminating potential rivals and replacing them with loyalists.

In what critics call probably the bloodiest act of internal repression, more than 1,000 prisoners were shot dead by security forces on June 28 and 29, 1996 in Abu Salim prison, according to Human Rights Watch.

The scale of the killings was confirmed by the Libyan Secretary of Justice to Human Rights Watch in April 2009, and in a press release by Saif al-Islam's Gaddafi Foundation charity on Aug. 10, 2009 which set the number at 1,167.

For years Libyan officials denied that the killings at Abu Salim had ever taken place. The first public acknowledgement was in April 2004 when Gaddafi said killings had taken place there, and that prisoners' families had the right to know what took place. To date there has been no official account of the events at Abu Salim prison.

[Shifter]

Quit claiming moral equivilancy. Most of the people other countries may want dead or brought to justice for huge crimes don't come into the United States, because we'd most likely fully cooperate with the other government on hunting down those kinds of people. Pakistan was sheltering Bin Laden, and would not have assisted in bringing him to justice/extraditing/neutralizing him. When another country, in this case Pakistan, makes it clear it won't assist in finding a terrorist with the blood of many innocents on its hands, what choice did we have but to "violate the soveringty"? I wish I understood their reasoning better, but apparently they are just fine with a murderous terrorist hanging out inside their borders.

[Eki]

Quit claiming moral equivilancy. Most of the people other countries may want dead or brought to justice for huge crimes don't come into the United States, because we'd most likely fully cooperate with the other government on hunting down those kinds of people. Pakistan was sheltering Bin Laden, and would not have assisted in bringing him to justice/extraditing/neutralizing him. When another country, in this case Pakistan, makes it clear it won't assist in finding a terrorist with the blood of many innocents on its hands, what choice did we have but to "violate the soveringty"? I wish I understood their reasoning better, but apparently they are just fine with a murderous terrorist hanging out inside their borders.
There're no signs that Pakistan was knowingly sheltering Bin Laden. Remember that the US itself was harboring the 9/11 terrorists and even taught them to fly. Does that mean the US government knew about them?

[Shifter]

Right, pre-9/11, so I guess you're advocating profiling, which I figured you'd be against.

[Eki]

Right, pre-9/11, so I guess you're advocating profiling, which I figured you'd be against.
Pakistan has 165 million people and I don't believe they do much profiling. I'm sure it's just as easy if not more easy to hide in Pakistan without the government knowing as in the US, if not more so. Remember also those alleged millions of illegal immigrants in the US.

[Roamy]

Pakistan is a POS - We need to cut off all aid and move on. But many thanks to the Pakis who took the reward and gave up the bearded puke.
Time to get out of the War business and get some good down home manufacturing in place. I wonder how far we will go down before we quit buying other people's sh!t. I wonder how broke we will go before we stop giving money to the world's idiots.

So anyway these people probably got arrested because the paki gov was jealous that they will get the 25 mil. Oh and don't kid yourself they won't. As the story unfolds I guess there were incountry refueling pads all set up as well as flares lighting up the compound upon the arrival of the SEALs.
So now these heros are arrested and one thinks the Paki government did not know HA.

[Bob Riebe]

Pakistan has 165 million people and I don't believe they do much profiling. I'm sure it's just as easy if not more easy to hide in Pakistan without the government knowing as in the US, if not more so. Remember also those alleged millions of illegal immigrants in the US.
How was the U.S. supposed to know the terrorists were going to murder thousands of people?

Your rhetoric is falling part as being disjointed and silly.

Had they not trained those people, the future terrorists could have gone to the ACLU and cried their civil rights were denied., that they were suffering prejudice etc., etc., etc..

[Eki]

So now these heros are arrested and one thinks the Paki government did not know HA.
So, why did they arrest them only afterwards? They could have stopped them before the raid and warned Bin Laden if they knew. It's like Bob said about the US not knowing about the 9/11 attacks beforehand. They probably hadn't a clue that Bin Laden was lurking nearby.

[airshifter]

So, why did they arrest them only afterwards? They could have stopped them before the raid and warned Bin Laden if they knew. It's like Bob said about the US not knowing about the 9/11 attacks beforehand. They probably hadn't a clue that Bin Laden was lurking nearby.

Either the informants had more trust in the US than they did in Pakistan, or they provided the same information to Pakistan and they didn't act on it. In either case it doesn't speak really highly of the officials and government in Pakistan.

[Eki]

In the second scenario, the Pakistani government should have arrested them immediately, if they we're sheltering Bin Laden. In the first scenario the informants were so keen on the bounty on Bin Ladens head that they weren't willing to share it with anyone. The US was willing to offer $5 million for the head of Fazul Abdullah Mohammed. I can only imagine how much they were willing to offer for the head of Bin Laden.

[Roamy]

So now we set the paki government up and caught them tipping off terrorists. I cannot believe we are even involved in this cesspool. Let the Indians handle these sh!theads. Pack up and move out

[Bob Riebe]

In the second scenario, the Pakistani government should have arrested them immediately, if they we're sheltering Bin Laden. In the first scenario the informants were so keen on the bounty on Bin Ladens head that they weren't willing to share it with anyone. Far more likely they were afraid someone in the Paki government would make them disappear.
They were probably correct.