The DeltaWing lives

[Rex Monaco]

DeltaWing race car approved to compete at Le Mans 24 in 2012 - AutoWeek (http://www.autoweek.com/article/20110609/ALMS/110609861)

I'm positing this here because it was a Indycar proposal and Dan Gurney is involved.

[SarahFan]

I hope it wins

[Chris R]

good place to trial the concept -- looks better in red too - this will be interesting.....

[Robinho]

can a mod cross this thread into the Le Mans forum also so the Indycar and Endurance fans can comment?

[ioan]

I hope it wins

With a 40 liter fuel tank it will spend more time in the pits then on the track.

[Chris R]

With a 40 liter fuel tank it will spend more time in the pits then on the track.
well, it won't take long to fill ;)

seriously, if the thing is as efficient as they claim it could get 15-20 mpg.... a 300 hp street car can get that and it is much heavier and running a lot more accessories (granted it is not running at full throttle all the time) - so maybe it is not as bad as it sounds......

[harvick#1]

it will be a unclassed 56th entry, it could be a quick car, but it has no turning radius, I have a feeling this is gonna be a very big moving chicane and could very well screw over someone's 24 hours because it'll be a dog in the corners

[Robinho]

its an interesting concept and a radical departure from the standard racing car geometry, i'm glad its being given an outlet somewhere and will be very interested to see how it actually performs, especially in cornering

[Chris R]

it will be a unclassed 56th entry, it could be a quick car, but it has no turning radius, I have a feeling this is gonna be a very big moving chicane and could very well screw over someone's 24 hours because it'll be a dog in the corners

Well, they claim it can turn - this will be an excellent opportunity to either prove or disprove the concept - I share your doubts - but I am pretty sure they are confident in the car's ability to turn otherwise they are really wasting big $$ for nothing.....

[garyshell]

it will be a unclassed 56th entry, it could be a quick car, but it has no turning radius, I have a feeling this is gonna be a very big moving chicane and could very well screw over someone's 24 hours because it'll be a dog in the corners

You state that with such certainty. How is it you know this, despite the claimes of the designers? Do you HONESTLY think Dan Gurney would put his name on this if that were the case?

Gary

[anthonyvop]

http://assets.speedtv.com/images/article_assets/107/1078461/1078461_article_img_large1.jpg

The argument about it's ability to turn apparently will be answered when it hits the track. There are some other less obvious but none the less important questions that need to be asked.

Looking at the rendering of the design I wonder how they are going to cool the engine.
The design also leads one to believe that a big diffuser will be utilized to keep the rear attached to the track. How are they going to keep the nose down?

If the DeltaWing does come to fruition I fully expect a design that is heavily modified from the original drawings.

[Andrewmcm]

Yes, keeping the nose down was the first thing to cross my mind. We've all seen the videos of the Le Mans Mercedes CLRs flipping in 1999, and it'll be interesting to see how they keep the nose of the Deltawing on the ground.

[SoCalPVguy]

I'd love to see it run too, if only to see if ...1) it will actually turn at all at high speeds (I am a "doubter"), and 2) it doesn't take off like a rocket with no front wings and an uplifted nose.

[Bob Riebe]

I'd love to see it run too, if only to see if ...1) it will actually turn at all at high speeds (I am a "doubter"), and 2) it doesn't take off like a rocket with no front wings and an uplifted nose.
I agree with you. If for nothing else it will be interesting just to see it run.
I am wondering though, as it is shaped much like a Sanforized[ AA/F car, if in a crash it might not have a tendency to break in half, or at least one-third/ two-thirds.

Not dangerous to the driver, but a bit expensive to fix.

[nigelred5]

I've always wanted to see it run, I just didn't want it to be the next Indycar. I'll be honest, I can't wait just to see an actual running version of it on track with the prototypes. I like it!

[wedge]

That thing should be at Bonneville than a race track.

Seriously, good luck to the project.

[truefan72]

That thing should be at Bonneville than a race track.

Seriously, good luck to the project.

my thoughts exactly,
too radical for LMP
they claim that it has no problems with the turn radius but it will take an entirely new approach tor acing to point the car for proper turns

I don't like it personally, even after going to the website and seeing their youtube videos.

[maximilian]

It's STILL ugly as fudge, but at least it may fit in a bit better with these cars. I still shudder to think that this contraption could have been the "new IndyCar" .... yuk.

[garyshell]

All of these doubters who think it can't turn or won't be able to keep the nose down just crack me up. Do you folks honestly think you know more about race cars than Dan Gurney? All I need to know is Dan has put his name on the project and that is enough for me. I'd venture a guess that he knows just a little bit more than all of the doubters combined.

Gary

[dataman1]

All of these doubters who think it can't turn or won't be able to keep the nose down just crack me up. Do you folks honestly think you know more about race cars than Dan Gurney? All I need to know is Dan has put his name on the project and that is enough for me. I'd venture a guess that he knows just a little bit more than all of the doubters combined.

Gary

I'm going to agree with Gary on this one plus add the Bowlby is no slouch. If Ganasi bank-rolled this project in the beginning he believed in Bowlby as much as Gurney. I sure wouldn't bet against the combination. I also agree with Wedge that it looks like a salt flats car.

[Chris R]

I would also add, for those who think it will take flight - those Bonneville cars don't exactly take flight all that easily - so.......

Overall, I have to agree with Gary and dataman - there are some pretty good minds behind this and I think it is going to be pretty cool to see how it goes (I think it will "work" the question is - "Is it a better mouse trap"??

[chuck34]

I don't know. While I respect Bowlby and Gurney more than I can express here, I just have doubts. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and if it looks right it is right are two idioms that come to mind. And that thing is making some extraordinary claims, and it sure doesn't look right. The physics of the universe are just screaming at me that it won't turn. Now I believe that it has some sort of trick diff that makes it all work, if that's the case I hope that thing is bullet-proof for reliability. I can't imagine going into Arnage at 200+ with an iffy diff.

[chuck34]

I would also add, for those who think it will take flight - those Bonneville cars don't exactly take flight all that easily - so.......

Overall, I have to agree with Gary and dataman - there are some pretty good minds behind this and I think it is going to be pretty cool to see how it goes (I think it will "work" the question is - "Is it a better mouse trap"??

Bonneville doesn't have any humps in it. Not that I think lift is this car's main concern though.

[ioan]

Bonneville doesn't have any humps in it. Not that I think lift is this car's main concern though.

Exactly.

[anthonyvop]

All of these doubters who think it can't turn or won't be able to keep the nose down just crack me up. Do you folks honestly think you know more about race cars than Dan Gurney? All I need to know is Dan has put his name on the project and that is enough for me. I'd venture a guess that he knows just a little bit more than all of the doubters combined.

Gary

Nobody is perfect

http://insideracingtechnology.com/Resources/eaglt11.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3219/2313094556_b758935a1f.jpg

[ykiki]

Nobody is perfect

http://insideracingtechnology.com/Resources/eaglt11.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3219/2313094556_b758935a1f.jpg

Ah, the Brabham BT55 was supposed to be revolutionary, but ended up being a dog.

http://autosport.aeiou.pt/users/11/1132/eb7977d4.jpeg

I suppose the difference in this case is that while those cars were relatively slow or "off the pace", there are many who simply believe that the Delta Wing flat out won't work period because it can't turn. In this instance I'm inclined to go with Bowlby and Gurney. Perhaps the Delta Wing won't be as fast as hoped, but I think they've engineered a way to steer the car around Le Mans.

[FormerFF]

it will be a unclassed 56th entry, it could be a quick car, but it has no turning radius, I have a feeling this is gonna be a very big moving chicane and could very well screw over someone's 24 hours because it'll be a dog in the corners

If it's a hazard, the ACO will not hesitate to get it off of the track.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well put me in the camp with Gary and Dataman and others who are going to let Bowlby and Gurney prove the concept.

Iam firmly of the belief that they haven't done this much work and gotten the car to be in LeMans for next year without proving more than we are being shown. I suspect before long, a prototype will be in testing. The car wont run at LeMans if it isn't proven to be safe and fast enough to not be in the way. I suspect straight line speed wont be the issue, and if Bowlby is to be believed, the car will handle too.

Sometimes, you just have to see where an idea goes. Occasionally a good idea on paper doesn't work. I remember in the second iteration of Can Am, some guys came up with a catamaran car with the engine on one side of the car, the Driver and cockpit on the other and a central tunnel to create huge downforce. It bombed but it did make a few laps around Mosport when they brought it up here. Didn't have any straight line speed and a lot of bugs, but the project was so underfunded, it is really hard to say if they ever truly wrung out all they needed to prove or disprove the car's design.

In this case, a lot of smart and intelligent people with proven track records are trying to make this thing go.....I wouldn't be going to Vegas to put money down against them failing to prove the concept.

[chuck34]

In this case, a lot of smart and intelligent people with proven track records are trying to make this thing go.....I wouldn't be going to Vegas to put money down against them failing to prove the concept.

I wouldn't put money down on them failing, and neither would I put money down on them being a success. Just because people have done well in the past is no garuntee that they will do well in the future. Both of these guys (Bowlby and Gurney) have failed in the past, so it's not impossible. I think sometimes people are given too much credit based on past successes. Granted I do give these guys lots of credit too .... but extraordinary claims require etraordinary proof, and a computer simulation/YouTube video are not proof to this engineer.

[Chris R]

Ah, the Brabham BT55 was supposed to be revolutionary, but ended up being a dog.

http://autosport.aeiou.pt/users/11/1132/eb7977d4.jpeg

I suppose the difference in this case is that while those cars were relatively slow or "off the pace", there are many who simply believe that the Delta Wing flat out won't work period because it can't turn. In this instance I'm inclined to go with Bowlby and Gurney. Perhaps the Delta Wing won't be as fast as hoped, but I think they've engineered a way to steer the car around Le Mans.

The BT 55 concept was actually very good - the execution by the Brabham team (in its declining years) was more the issue - Murray took his concept to McLaren and won all but one race a year or two(??) later..... The Eagle - well, Dan did have his share of less than effective cars - but again , I think budget or other issues had as much to do with those "failures" as anything.....

[anthonyvop]

The Eagle - well, Dan did have his share of less than effective cars - but again , I think budget or other issues had as much to do with those "failures" as anything.....

They were a fully funded "Toyota" psuedo-factory team. Money wasn't an issue.

The idea that we shouldn't question the design of the DeltaWing just because Dan Gurney is involved is kind of silly. Nobody is perfect and the design is so radical that it has to be questioned.

[garyshell]

it will be a unclassed 56th entry, it could be a quick car, but it has no turning radius, I have a feeling this is gonna be a very big moving chicane and could very well screw over someone's 24 hours because it'll be a dog in the corners


The idea that we shouldn't question the design of the DeltaWing just because Dan Gurney is involved is kind of silly. Nobody is perfect and the design is so radical that it has to be questioned.

There is a very big difference between "questioning" and stating the car will be "a dog in the corners" or that "it has no turning radius". And seeing as how there are multi-engined airplanes being designed entirely in CAD/CAM/simulation systems these days, I think it is safe to assume a much less complex device such as the steering system on a race car can be fully sorted out prior to the prototype turning a wheel.

Gary

[ykiki]

The BT 55 concept was actually very good - the execution by the Brabham team (in its declining years) was more the issue - Murray took his concept to McLaren and won all but one race a year or two(??) later..... The Eagle - well, Dan did have his share of less than effective cars - but again , I think budget or other issues had as much to do with those "failures" as anything.....

Off on a tangent here (sorry) - how much of the BT55's problems were related to tilting the engine and was that design feature carried over by Murray in his time at McLaren - I can't remember.

Back on topic, with as much computer modeling/simulation that goes on these days I honestly can't imagine that they've designed a car that is unable to turn.

[chuck34]

There is a very big difference between "questioning" and stating the car will be "a dog in the corners" or that "it has no turning radius". And seeing as how there are multi-engined airplanes being designed entirely in CAD/CAM/simulation systems these days, I think it is safe to assume a much less complex device such as the steering system on a race car can be fully sorted out prior to the prototype turning a wheel.

Gary

The airplanes being designed in CAD/CAM are not radical departures from the current "state of the art", ie they don't have 14 short stubby wings or something. Plus after all the CAD/CAM design work is done, they go verify the thing in a wind tunnel, etc. The DW has yet to hit the track in any sort of form, other than maybe a dragster and we all know they don't turn really well. Computer simulations only work so far as the assumptions made as inputs are valid. I have no idea if the assumptions for the DW are valid or not, and I'm not sure if Bowlby et al can be sure of that either.

[garyshell]

The airplanes being designed in CAD/CAM are not radical departures from the current "state of the art", ie they don't have 14 short stubby wings or something. Plus after all the CAD/CAM design work is done, they go verify the thing in a wind tunnel, etc. The DW has yet to hit the track in any sort of form, other than in dragster form. Computer simulations only work so far as the assumptions made as inputs are valid. I have no idea if the assumptions for the DW are valid or not, and I'm not sure if Bowlby et al can be sure of that either.

I did some work for Dassault Systemes out of France and Canada who make some of the most sophisticated CAD and simulation software in the world. Their simulations are based on a physics engine, not the assumption of coefficient inputs and formulas from a designer. Those sorts of simulations are a thing of the past. Yes there are final confirmations in a real world model at some point, but not to verify the physics involved at a level of does it have a turning radius of x or y.

Gary

[chuck34]

I did some work for Dassault Systemes out of France and Canada who make some of the most sophisticated CAD and simulation software in the world. Their simulations are based on a physics engine, not the assumption of coefficient inputs and formulas from a designer. Those sorts of simulations are a thing of the past. Yes there are final confirmations in a real world model at some point, but not to verify the physics involved at a level of does it have a turning radius of x or y.

Gary

I work with Abaqus FEA (Dassault Systemes) almost everyday. Rest assured there are plenty of assumptions used in setting up computer models. Yes the programs use physical equations/laws but the inputs are not always clar cut. Garbage in, garbage out.

[Chris R]

They were a fully funded "Toyota" psuedo-factory team. Money wasn't an issue.

The idea that we shouldn't question the design of the DeltaWing just because Dan Gurney is involved is kind of silly. Nobody is perfect and the design is so radical that it has to be questioned.

I agree with you that just because Gurney is involved doesn't mean it will succeed - but it does add to the credibility factor.....

As for the Toyota money - I seem to recall reading that Toyota was only "sticking at toe in the water" at the time and that money WAS a big problem... but I could be wrong.....

[dataman1]

One thing I forgot in my earlier post. Highcroft Racing is a leading edge group with proven performance on the track. I am anxious to see it run. Until then I wish them all luck.

[shazbot]

Whilst Bowbly, Ganassi and Gurney might lend a degree of credibility I did hear mention of Don Panoz, whose association with this project is surely a nail in the coffin. Anyone who has had anything to do with Mr Panoz will testify to that.

The premise of this concept is a more environmentally friendly form of racing. Give Adrian newey 325bhp to get around a circuit as fast as possible with the same fuel consumption who hear thinks his car would look like DeltaWing?

[anthonyvop]

Whilst Bowbly, Ganassi and Gurney might lend a degree of credibility I did hear mention of Don Panoz, whose association with this project is surely a nail in the coffin. Anyone who has had anything to do with Mr Panoz will testify to that.

I know more than a few who worked for Don Panoz who would tell you how wrong you are.

[Chris R]

Whilst Bowbly, Ganassi and Gurney might lend a degree of credibility I did hear mention of Don Panoz, whose association with this project is surely a nail in the coffin. Anyone who has had anything to do with Mr Panoz will testify to that.

The premise of this concept is a more environmentally friendly form of racing. Give Adrian newey 325bhp to get around a circuit as fast as possible with the same fuel consumption who hear thinks his car would look like DeltaWing?

I don't recall too much bad being said about Don Panoz... I know a lot of people have questioned the fit and finish of his race cars - but fit and finish is rarely a high point on race cars (especially ones built with budget in mind).....

I am not so sure what Adrian Newey's car would look like - He has usually gone for function over form - so.....

[Marbles]

Panoz as always struck me as a man who's lost more cash than he'll ever recoup pursuing his passion for motorsports as a promotor, builder, track owner. I've never really heard anything negative about a contrary Panoz. I don't know?

If this project hits Le Mans next year it's only resemblance to concept will be in name only.

[shazbot]

I know more than a few who worked for Don Panoz who would tell you how wrong you are.

Well I know more than a few people who would tell you how wrong you are so there we go! The whole Panoz/Elan/PAD family of companies has had the potential to be a great organization, it's just been squandered over the years by poor management. Other than writing checks Don has nothing to do with the company, and indeed spends most of his time in Australia in tax exile - he's no longer a US citizen. St Andrews golf course has long since been sold, the Sebring resort is in a terrible state financially, the Diablo Grande resort was bought for $120 million and sold out of bankruptcy in '08 for $20 million. Mosport has been disposed off, Elan has no design capacity any more, Van Diemen barely exists and has been partially signed over to a UK group and the ALMS is struggling. Perhaps Don will bless the Deltawing with his Midas Touch!


Panoz as always struck me as a man who's lost more cash than he'll ever recoup pursuing his passion for motorsports as a promotor, builder, track owner. I've never really heard anything negative about a contrary Panoz.

Yes he has. You say that like it's a good thing! Dons 'interest' in cars stems from his son Danny, whose Panoz Auto Development once produced the Esperante and recently turned out the dogs dinner that was the Abruzzi - or Abortzzi as it was known within the company. The less said about Panoz Jr and his ability to run a company the better. Debacle would sum it up.

[garyshell]

Nice interview with Gurney about the Le Mans Delta wing project 56.

Q & A: Dan Gurney on Le Mans DeltaWing project - Racer.com (http://www.racer.com/q-a-dan-gurney-on-le-mans-deltawing-project/article/206285/?DCMP=EMC-RACER_DAILY)

Gary

[FIAT1]

I have always thougt because of the car size that alms would be better formula to race this car. I can't wait to see it on the track with other cars. I have great hope they race this car at RA as part of regular schedule.

[chuck34]

Anybody hear when this thing should hit the track for testing? And where?

[beckrd]

All of these doubters who think it can't turn or won't be able to keep the nose down just crack me up. Do you folks honestly think you know more about race cars than Dan Gurney? All I need to know is Dan has put his name on the project and that is enough for me. I'd venture a guess that he knows just a little bit more than all of the doubters combined.

Gary

I agree with you to some extent. Dan Gurney has been in the sport of racing for countless years, and I don't doubt his ability to build a racecar. However, I do think the DeltaWing will be a nightmare in the corners, and will have some cooling issues. I can see problems with this car just by looking at it. Having only three wheels, the back end will be the support of the car, terribly upsetting the car's balance. Also, with its ridiculously long front, I believe it will be more like taxiing a small plane than a racecar. Also, there is no overall stability with such a load being put on the back two wheels, and to have only three wheels goes against all racing engineering design. Also, with Don Panoz on board, the car turned out to be a little strange looking. Again, I don't doubt his ability, yet many of his cars have a very strange appearance about them.

I do think Gurney and Panoz have the right idea to expand the realm of Le Mans-spec cars, but I think this is too big of a step. I don't think too many people are keen on the idea, but I like what their motive is. My humble advice is maybe take smaller steps to achieve a goal if you REALLY want to change the future of racing. I think a single failed attempt will set back Project 56 a long way. And, frankly, I don't want to see that. I would like this crazy car to be successful. I just feel like they are really pushing the limits of engineering feats, here.

[Nem14]

Dude,
The Deltawing car has 4 wheels, though the front track is pretty narrow ; )

[garyshell]

I can see problems with this car just by looking at it. Having only three wheels, the back end will be the support of the car, terribly upsetting the car's balance.

Does that ability to just look at the car and be able to assess it's engineering dynamics extend to being able to actually count the wheels?

Gary

[shazbot]

In very simplistic terms the idea of the Delta wing is to have all the aero and mechanical grip at the back. The front end is along for the ride to a certain extent - the steering/yaw force comes from the rear end, the front end follows.

[maxmach]

Hey, you know what, Gurney and group are trying something new, something very different, more power to em. I personally think the Deltawing will do ok, probably less then the builders desire, but more then the naysayers here. But damn, they are trying.......that counts for something.

[nigelred5]

I wonder how much the design was really altered to comply with ACO rules to have two cockpits. Make this thing conform to their closed car rules and it's really going to be interesting to see. Ace and Gary would be proud. lol

[nigelred5]

I have always thougt because of the car size that alms would be better formula to race this car. I can't wait to see it on the track with other cars. I have great hope they race this car at RA as part of regular schedule.

It is really only eligible under the ACO rules for a special technology car for LeMans, but I agree. If it's going to race, I'd like to see it here and Road America seems like the place. Maybe once it's operational they will do some demonstration laps elsewhere (16th and georgetown ) to prove the technology. I've always like the concept, just not as the next Indycar.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I find the detractors are not engineers....and I will wait until the car hits the track. Ken Bowlby isn't a fool or an idiot.....and he is pushing the envelope for ideas. All power to him!

AS for Don Panoz, he essentially saved Mosport, and as for this assertion he doesn't know what he is doing, oh really? He made a hell of a lot of money somehow, he didn't inherit it. So he cant be THAT stupid. Yes, his car company hasn't done much money wise, but the enthusiasm and ideas are pushing for new ideas...give him a little credit for trying...because you know the old saw about making a small fortune in racing...starting with a large one....

[shazbot]

Ken Bowlby may well be a fool and an idiot. Ben Bowlby on the hand is a nice guy! ;)

I've worked with Panoz Jnr and Snr and it is one of lifes great mysteries that Snr made any money at all. As far as Jnr is concerned - if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all!

[beachbum]

I find the detractors are not engineers....and I will wait until the car hits the track. Some of us do have engineering degrees. But I find it particularly odd that the Delta Wing concept is to put most of the weight and loads on the rear wheels in an era where weight distributions on F1 and prototypes are moving more forward and a common solution is to run bigger front tires. The new Peugeot and Audi Le Mans cars moved to much larger front tires and the Acura P1 used the same tires front and rear.

Bowlby may be a good engineer, but if he is right, then a lot of other very smart, experienced race engineers are very wrong. Frankly, I would trust the big factories and F1 teams to find the optimum designs. But it will be interesting to how / if the Delta Wing works.

[Chris R]

Some of us do have engineering degrees. But I find it particularly odd that the Delta Wing concept is to put most of the weight and loads on the rear wheels in an era where weight distributions on F1 and prototypes are moving more forward and a common solution is to run bigger front tires. The new Peugeot and Audi Le Mans cars moved to much larger front tires and the Acura P1 used the same tires front and rear.

Bowlby may be a good engineer, but if he is right, then a lot of other very smart, experienced race engineers are very wrong. Frankly, I would trust the big factories and F1 teams to find the optimum designs. But it will be interesting to how / if the Delta Wing works.

You make good points - the only thing I would add is that, do not forget that series' in question are governed by a strict set of rules and the Delta concept cannot function within those rules - so it is not a solution to even consider for the sports car and F1 teams - those engineers have found the best solutions within a given set of parameters.....

The only reason the Delta wing gets a shot at LeMans is that they have a class for new ideas.... Indy might do well to consider such a thing as well......

[anthonyvop]

Interesting "Find" about the Delta Wing and its construction.

It appears they are using the Aston-Martin AMR-1 tub for the prototype.

Mulsanne's Corner News, September/October 2011 (http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newssept11.html)

Some great detective work by Mike Fuller at Mulsannecornner.com

[Chris R]

Interesting "Find" about the Delta Wing and its construction.

It appears they are using the Aston-Martin AMR-1 tub for the prototype.

Mulsanne's Corner News, September/October 2011 (http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newssept11.html)

Some great detective work by Mike Fuller at Mulsannecornner.com

Interesting - but the mockup and the tub do not "match" in the photo - the driver is on the opposite sides.... I wonder if the tub is just for studying or if they are making fundamental changes??

[nigelred5]

Interesting - but the mockup and the tub do not "match" in the photo - the driver is on the opposite sides.... I wonder if the tub is just for studying or if they are making fundamental changes??

From what Fuller's article says, they are using the AMR-1 tub because it's already ACO crash tested and approved. IIRC, the Deltawing design was a non stressed engine chassis, so this is bascially just a safety cell? Maybe they are just building a test mule unsing this chassis until they prove the thing will actually work?

[I am evil Homer]

Or it's an ACO requirement in order to fulfil their slot at Le Mans.

[beachbum]

Maybe the cost of building and crashing a tub new design tub exceeds the whole budget for the project. ;)

This whole project has been lots of hype, but little actual construction. Back in Feb 2010, they promised an Indy Car prototype would be on track by August of that year. If they actually want a radical new concept to run next year, they should be a bit further along that a purchased tub sitting on sawhorses and no idea what engine they will run.

If you look at the drawings on the DeltaWing Racing Cars (http://deltawingracing.com/) website and compare them to the AMR-1 tub, the driver cell shape looks exactly the same, except for the driver moving to the right. Maybe they plan on using the Aston drive train as well, although that would probably make the weight targets had to hit.

[chuck34]

Lots of smoke and mirrors with this thing. Now it's just going to be an Aston with a fake nose one it? And no engine anouced yet, that doesn't inspire much confidence with me. I don't think they can just use an Aston drivetrain as beachbum suggests, that was one key point to this whole concept, having a light fairly underpowered yet fuel efficient motor. That most certainly is not the Aston. Then you have all the issues with Highcroft, what are they doing on this project, do they still have a team? And the questions of the vehicle dynamics (I am an engineer, and I have some BIG questions).

At this point, I think they should punt. Announce they won't run in the 2012 Le Mans. They should try to be testing by then (June 2012). Run a whole bunch of tests, track, wind tunnel, 7-post rig, etc., all through 2012. All of this in preperation for a full on, serious assult (perhaps with multiple cars?) trying to get the overall win in 2013.

[anthonyvop]

Lots of smoke and mirrors with this thing. Now it's just going to be an Aston with a fake nose one it? And no engine anouced yet, that doesn't inspire much confidence with me. I don't think they can just use an Aston drivetrain as beachbum suggests, that was one key point to this whole concept, having a light fairly underpowered yet fuel efficient motor. That most certainly is not the Aston. Then you have all the issues with Highcroft, what are they doing on this project, do they still have a team? And the questions of the vehicle dynamics (I am an engineer, and I have some BIG questions).

At this point, I think they should punt. Announce they won't run in the 2012 Le Mans. They should try to be testing by then (June 2012). Run a whole bunch of tests, track, wind tunnel, 7-post rig, etc., all through 2012. All of this in preperation for a full on, serious assult (perhaps with multiple cars?) trying to get the overall win in 2013.

They are rolling out the prototype this morning at the Petite and Mike Fuller has confirmed that is a Aston tub.

Using a homologated tub makes sense. ACO/FIA rules dictate the dimensions and general shape of the tub so why not use one all ready approved. They could have used a Lola or Oreca tub and it would have looked similar.
Saves money that can be better served on development of other parts.

[BDunnell]

You make good points - the only thing I would add is that, do not forget that series' in question are governed by a strict set of rules and the Delta concept cannot function within those rules - so it is not a solution to even consider for the sports car and F1 teams - those engineers have found the best solutions within a given set of parameters.....

The only reason the Delta wing gets a shot at LeMans is that they have a class for new ideas.... Indy might do well to consider such a thing as well......

These are all very valid points. It will be fascinating to see how the car, and the concept, perform. But I'm sure those of you who are more positive about the Delta Wing — and it is undoubtedly an exciting prospect — can also understand the scepticism about its prospects. My gut (non-engineer's, admittedly) feeling is that the days of real radicalism offering giant leaps forward in motor racing are over, even if the Le Mans regulations offer some space for them.

[anthonyvop]

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/299537_10150374579332328_703872327_8086943_1389470 975_n.jpg

Also Michelin announces that they will make the special tires for the Delta Wing ALMS/LMS (http://www.oversteertv.net/ALMS-LMS.html)

[Chris R]

those tires don't look to round :-) I am pretty sure they will not work :-)

What is it sitting on anyway???

[chuck34]

That is not the actual car, it's the mock-up. The Aston tub is right hand drive. This mock-up is left hand. Look at the Mulsanne's article you linked to.

When are we going to see the actual car?

[chuck34]

They are rolling out the prototype this morning at the Petite and Mike Fuller has confirmed that is a Aston tub.

See above. Not the actual car. Or they didn't use the Aston tub, or are there right and left drive Aston tubs?


Using a homologated tub makes sense. ACO/FIA rules dictate the dimensions and general shape of the tub so why not use one all ready approved. They could have used a Lola or Oreca tub and it would have looked similar.
Saves money that can be better served on development of other parts.

Using a homologated tub could make sense. It sure does from a cost stand-point. I'm not sure about what will happen to the performance though. The pick up points (the area of highest stresses) were designed for the Aston tub. Now those points are going to be what 2-3 feet further ahead, on a glued on apendage? What happens to the torsional rigidity at that point? I honestly don't know, I'd have to look at the actual numbers.

[BDunnell]

See above. Not the actual car.

Nor, by the look of it, a very impressive unveiling.



Using a homologated tub could make sense. It sure does from a cost stand-point. I'm not sure about what will happen to the performance though. The pick up points (the area of highest stresses) were designed for the Aston tub. Not those points are going to be what 2-3 feet further ahead, on a glued on apendage? What happens to the torsional rigidity at that point? I honestly don't know, I'd have to look at the actual numbers.

One would naturally assume that all such aspects will be thoroughly tested by the powers-that-be before the car is allowed to compete.

[chuck34]

One would naturally assume that all such aspects will be thoroughly tested by the powers-that-be before the car is allowed to compete.

Why? The ACO doesn't care about performance. They care about safety. I believe the Delta Wing can be (and probably is) about as safe as any other car out there, particularly if they are using an already Homologated tub. My questions are purely about performance. And I'm not sure there is enough time left before June to fully test something so radically different in every aspect. And that would be if they had the car running today, which they clearly do not.

[BDunnell]

Why? The ACO doesn't care about performance. They care about safety. I believe the Delta Wing can be (and probably is) about as safe as any other car out there, particularly if they are using an already Homologated tub. My questions are purely about performance. And I'm not sure there is enough time left before June to fully test something so radically different in every aspect. And that would be if they had the car running today, which they clearly do not.

I was referring to safety, based on your comments about stresses and rigidity.

[chuck34]

I was referring to safety, based on your comments about stresses and rigidity.

No my comment about stresses and rigidity were speaking to performance. Sorry if that wasn't clear. The torsional rigidity of a chassis is a very important parameter in handling. If you have a chassis with low torsional rigidity (easy to twist under a load), it can be harder to make performance tuning tweaks that make a difference, ie spring changes don't really do much, etc.

[BDunnell]

No my comment about stresses and rigidity were speaking to performance. Sorry if that wasn't clear. The torsional rigidity of a chassis is a very important parameter in handling. If you have a chassis with low torsional rigidity (easy to twist under a load), it can be harder to make performance tuning tweaks that make a difference, ie spring changes don't really do much, etc.

Indeed, and sorry for any misunderstanding. I was thinking you had concerns about structural rigidity.

[chuck34]

Indeed, and sorry for any misunderstanding. I was thinking you had concerns about structural rigidity.

No problem, I think that post may have been worded a bit strangely. Just to be clear, I would expect, and believe that as far as safety goes the Delta Wing will be "state of the art".

[BDunnell]

No problem, I think that post may have been worded a bit strangely. Just to be clear, I would expect, and believe that as far as safety goes the Delta Wing will be "state of the art".

Not at all — my mistake. I am in agreement with you.

[FormerFF]

I saw the mockup this morning. I still don't see how it will turn, unless there's some serious eletrickery in the differential. Also, it appears to have no downforce whatsoever, so it could well be a target in fast corners.

On the other hand, AAR, Highcroft, Panoz and Michelin have all signed on to this project, so I have to think it's not going to be a total fiasco.

[FIAT1]

March1, first test was conducted. Able to turn left and right. Baby steps. Just for people who might be interested it is on ytube I believe.

[garyshell]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQOXiRU4orc

And some said it would never turn. Danny Gurney knows more about engineering than all the doubters here put together.

Gary

[FIAT1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQOXiRU4orc

And some said it would never turn. Danny Gurney knows more about engineering than all the doubters here put together.

Gary

Agree. I don't think doubters have a clue. I'm very trilled to see this and would love if they make it to LeMans.

[beachbum]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQOXiRU4orc

And some said it would never turn. Danny Gurney knows more about engineering than all the doubters here put together.

Gary
Gee, you think they would have invested in a proper video camera. Not exactly thrilling, but it does at least move. I don't think any one suggested it wouldn't turn at all, but the question is - at what speed? Testing should be interesting.

[harvick#1]

Gee, you think they would have invested in a proper video camera. Not exactly thrilling, but it does at least move. I don't think any one suggested it wouldn't turn at all, but the question is - at what speed? Testing should be interesting.

you would've thought Highcroft has enough money to have a GoPro.

have no idea about this

[gloomyDAY]

Seriously? :laugh:

A crappy 17-second video of a dildo on wheels, and going around a turn at 50 mph is supposed to convince me that this car will do well at LeMans. Git outta hea!

[FIAT1]

Some people dare to dream to build something inovative and better and some lay on the beach with dark shades singing kumbaya wondering what happened.

[nigelred5]

you would've thought Highcroft has enough money to have a GoPro.

Well, considering it's the only video posted to an account named TheRaceBird and Highcroft, AAR and Delta wing all have theirown youtube accounts, I suspect that is a video taken by someone at the track before someone with the team saw them and asked them to stop taking videos of the car on track....

[SoCalPVguy]

Yeah It turned good at 35-Mph still you can hear tire squeal in the video... Good luck at high speed le mans track

[beachbum]

Some people dare to dream to build something inovative and better and some lay on the beach with dark shades singing kumbaya wondering what happened.
Some of us have spend long hours in garages getting our hands dirty building race equipment. Some of us even have engineering degrees.

Innovation is fine - if it works and is better than the current best solutions to the question. As for the Delta Wing, I have serious doubts. Even the best engineers sometimes go off the rails and down the rabbit hole.

[dataman1]

Well, considering it's the only video posted to an account named TheRaceBird and Highcroft, AAR and Delta wing all have theirown youtube accounts, I suspect that is a video taken by someone at the track before someone with the team saw them and asked them to stop taking videos of the car on track....

Totally agree. The footage was likely unauthorized. You can bet they had cameras on the car but don't want to share the information just yet and I don't blame them. Big money invested so they need to protect that.

[FIAT1]

Some of us have spend long hours in garages getting our hands dirty building race equipment. Some of us even have engineering degrees.

Innovation is fine - if it works and is better than the current best solutions to the question. As for the Delta Wing, I have serious doubts. Even the best engineers sometimes go off the rails and down the rabbit hole.

Serious doubts based on 5 sec video of first outing without braking sound barrier. Okey dokey...

[nigelred5]

There was some tire squealing but also intake, turbo and gearbox I heard as well. I can't see how there won't be some tire howling from those narrow front tires. With a good bit of steering coming from the differential, they are almost going along for a ride. Considering the layout of LeMans, ive assumed it will be relying on straighine speed and fuel efficiency and not corner speed in tight twisties to be even remotely competitive. This is really just a very elaborate proof of concept for their package IMHO.

[call_me_andrew]

Raise your hand if you expected to see 33 identical dildoes (dildos? dildii?) in this year's 500.

[FormerFF]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQOXiRU4orc

And some said it would never turn. Danny Gurney knows more about engineering than all the doubters here put together.

Gary

When we said "it won't turn", we meant "it won't generate enough lateral g's to be a competitive race car.". No one has any doubt that it will turn at touring speeds. I still have my doubts that its performance will be anywhere close to a conventional P2 or PC car. It has no apparent downforce, the front track is narrow, and the tires are small. Unless the differential is doing most of the turning, I still don't see it being at all competitive. The differential will have to be smart enough to turn the car under both braking and acceleration, and it's not at all obvious that it will produce much braking either.

[FIAT1]

Nissan to power Deltawing car. Some exibition laps before 12hrs of Sebring. Just some info for people who are interested.

[FIAT1]

Highcroft Racing - News - NISSAN DELTAWING IN-CAR*VIDEO (http://www.highcroftracing.com/news/2012/3/13/nissan-deltawing-in-car-video.html)

Oh no, it's turning. Again.

[nigelred5]

Raise your hand if you expected to see 33 identical dildoes (dildos? dildii?) in this year's 500.

No, just the one that's always there in the family box.....

[Robinho]

Nissan to supply engine for DeltaWing Le Mans car - Le Mans news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98001)

seems to work pretty well going on the footage in the video here, decent drivers signed up to race it, very interested to see the progress so far

[garyshell]

Highcroft Racing - News - NISSAN DELTAWING IN-CAR*VIDEO (http://www.highcroftracing.com/news/2012/3/13/nissan-deltawing-in-car-video.html)

Oh no, it's turning. Again.

It looks like that was Dario's brother at the wheel. Now that Nissan is willing to put its name and reputation on the line (and the car) I think we can pretty much put to rest the doubter's doubts.

Gary

[chuck34]

Once again, I don't think anyone said it WOULDN'T turn. What I have said (and others) is that I don't know how well it will turn at competitive speeds. And my biggest concern is if it relies on the diff to do the majority of the turning (I don't know that for a fact, but that's what the internet seems to indicate, for what that's worth) is what sort of reliability will that diff have. Especially throughout a race where it is going to get extremely hot, endure very harsh vibrations, bounce over curbs, be subjected to gross overloads, etc., etc.

If it works (ie is competitive at LeMans, not just making laps) I will be the first to say I was wrong. As I have said all along, "Extrordinary claims, require extrordinary proof". An internet video unacompanied by times, driver comments, and engineering data just doesn't qualify as extrordinary proof, at least in my book.

[BDunnell]

It looks like that was Dario's brother at the wheel. Now that Nissan is willing to put its name and reputation on the line (and the car) I think we can pretty much put to rest the doubter's doubts.

Really? Nissan put its name to the Sunny GTiR rally car as well, and that was a disaster. I love the DeltaWing concept, but let's not jump to any conclusions before we've seen the car in proper action.

[FIAT1]

Once again, I don't think anyone said it WOULDN'T turn. What I have said (and others) is that I don't know how well it will turn at competitive speeds. And my biggest concern is if it relies on the diff to do the majority of the turning (I don't know that for a fact, but that's what the internet seems to indicate, for what that's worth) is what sort of reliability will that diff have. Especially throughout a race where it is going to get extremely hot, endure very harsh vibrations, bounce over curbs, be subjected to gross overloads, etc., etc.

If it works (ie is competitive at LeMans, not just making laps) I will be the first to say I was wrong. As I have said all along, "Extrordinary claims, require extrordinary proof". An internet video unacompanied by times, driver comments, and engineering data just doesn't qualify as extrordinary proof, at least in my book.

Most of us don't know how this car will perform. I know nothing obout this car at this point on what it should or not do, but that does not prevent me to aploud those who dare to dream and try something different. My opinion.

[BDunnell]

Most of us don't know how this car will perform. I know nothing obout this car at this point on what it should or not do, but that does not prevent me to aploud those who dare to dream and try something different. My opinion.

As is what Chuck says. This is rather different to saying that we know it will work based on one short video.

[chuck34]

Most of us don't know how this car will perform. I know nothing obout this car at this point on what it should or not do, but that does not prevent me to aploud those who dare to dream and try something different. My opinion.

I also applaud those who dare to think out of the box. But that is a long way from believing basically sight unseen that this will work. Or in this particular case that the back of the envelope physics flying in the face of 100+ years of automotive engineering will work right out of the box.

To take another particularly revolutionary idea, wings. The back of the envelope physics work very easily, so it was much easier for people to buy into. With this thing, the physics are much more complicated (and appear counter to known instances) and therefore many are very reluctant to accept it. I am in that catagory very reluctant to accept it. That does not mean that I am denying it will ever work, just that I am coming at it from the more sceptical side of things.

To be honest the only argument that I have ever heard in favor of this working goes something along the lines of "Dan Gurney, and Ben Bowlby are in on it, so it must work". Forgive me, but as an engineer myself, appeals to authoritly with no concrete evidence don't sway me much. I wish I had the time and the modeling capability at my fingertips to look deeper into this, but I don't so I must rely on empirical evidence to turn my opinion. That is the one thing these YouTube videos do, start to build a body of evidence that it will work. But it is not yet proof.

[FIAT1]

As is what Chuck says. This is rather different to saying that we know it will work based on one short video.

Same as saying that will not work based on one short video. We don't know , I ceartainly don't know, but I believe in people that are involved in the project and I love inovation and thinking out of the box. I think people have stated here that it will never be on track, then it would not turn and now it wont be able to race. I'm a fan of this project and want to see it being competitive and prove negatores wrong. Tyrrell build six wheeled F1 car and did not brake any records, but we still celebrate creative thinking of engineering minds to design something never seen before and say ,why not!

[Robinho]

worth noting that what works at Le Mans may not work elsewhere also, seeing as huge portions of the track are full throttle, so what it may lose in the twisties it will likely make up in acceleration and top speed. That could add up to a competitive lap time but slow (relative to LMP's) in the corners.

However, I don't think its going to be as bad as some have justifiabley wondered

[garyshell]

Same as saying that will not work based on one short video. We don't know , I ceartainly don't know, but I believe in people that are involved in the project and I love inovation and thinking out of the box. I think people have stated here that it will never be on track, then it would not turn and now it wont be able to race. I'm a fan of this project and want to see it being competitive and prove negatores wrong. Tyrrell build six wheeled F1 car and did not brake any records, but we still celebrate creative thinking of engineering minds to design something never seen before and say ,why not!

I agree, 100%. The bar keeps being moved as you said, from it won't be built thru it won't race. Does anyone really think that Dan Gurney or Nissan is going to risk their names on it, if they have not been convinced that it has a chance to be at least able to compete? I am pretty sure they have done their due diligence. I am anxious to see what happens at the Sebring roll out. I have no idea how it will work, all I am saying is I trust Dan and Nissan, more than the self proclaimed experts (aka doubters).

Gary

[BDunnell]

Same as saying that will not work based on one short video. We don't know , I ceartainly don't know, but I believe in people that are involved in the project and I love inovation and thinking out of the box. I think people have stated here that it will never be on track, then it would not turn and now it wont be able to race. I'm a fan of this project and want to see it being competitive and prove negatores wrong. Tyrrell build six wheeled F1 car and did not brake any records, but we still celebrate creative thinking of engineering minds to design something never seen before and say ,why not!

I don't disagree with any of that. The best thing to do is wait and see.

[chuck34]

I agree, 100%. The bar keeps being moved as you said, from it won't be built thru it won't race. Does anyone really think that Dan Gurney or Nissan is going to risk their names on it, if they have not been convinced that it has a chance to be at least able to compete? I am pretty sure they have done their due diligence. I am anxious to see what happens at the Sebring roll out. I have no idea how it will work, all I am saying is I trust Dan and Nissan, more than the self proclaimed experts (aka doubters).

Gary

Once again a blind appeal to authority, this time Dan Gurney and Nissan. Yes those guys have had success in the past. Does that mean that they will automatically have success in everything they do? That they can not fail? Greater "names" than them have failed before, and will fail again. Many of us have quite a bit of experience with engineering, cars, race cars, and high tech industries. Just because many of us do not choose to share every detail with "the 'net" doesn't mean that we have no knowledge on the subject.

As for the bar being moved. I don't believe that I have ever moved my opinion in that it probably won't be very fast particularly throughout an entire race. But you must agree that the probability of it being built has at times looked very shaky. Funding streams have been fairly shady, Highcroft basically ceased to be a race team, and the shear "outragousness" of it generally means funding is hard to come by.

Let's see how it all plays out.

[garyshell]

Once again a blind appeal to authority, this time Dan Gurney and Nissan. Yes those guys have had success in the past. Does that mean that they will automatically have success in everything they do? That they can not fail? Greater "names" than them have failed before, and will fail again. Many of us have quite a bit of experience with engineering, cars, race cars, and high tech industries. Just because many of us do not choose to share every detail with "the 'net" doesn't mean that we have no knowledge on the subject.

As for the bar being moved. I don't believe that I have ever moved my opinion in that it probably won't be very fast particularly throughout an entire race. But you must agree that the probability of it being built has at times looked very shaky. Funding streams have been fairly shady, Highcroft basically ceased to be a race team, and the shear "outragousness" of it generally means funding is hard to come by.

Let's see how it all plays out.

First, let me be clear. I never said YOU have moved the bar. I am saying that there were a bunch of folks here and elsewhere who said it would never be built, that it would never turn etc.

Second, I am not making a blind appeal to Dan or Nissan. I am saying that they no doubt did their due diligence or they would never have signed on to the project. And I respect that if they thought enough of the concept to sign on, then it has a good chance or working as advertised. Could they be wrong? Hell yes they could. But my money is on the guys who have actually seen how the thing is supposed to work, not a bunch of internet pundits (experts or not) who have never seen so much as a single engineering drawing.

I agree, let's se how this thing plays out.

Gary

[shazbot]

Come down to Sebring tomorrow and watch it run for yourselves.

[champcarray]

A video of on-track testing with narration by Eric Comas has been posted to Road & Track's website: First DeltaWing Track Test Video (http://www.roadandtrack.com/racing/video/r-t-exclusive-deltawing-first-track-test).

[call_me_andrew]

They think it'll be faster at Le Mans than the P2 class. I say it'll be slower than GT2 and not finish.

[DanicaFan]

Im so glad Indycar didnt choose that car for their new vehicle.

The videos I saw never showed the car making a sharp hair-pin turn... Is it because it cant make one very good ????

[FIAT1]

Im so glad Indycar didnt choose that car for their new vehicle.

The videos I saw never showed the car making a sharp hair-pin turn... Is it because it cant make one very good ????

Onother expert and opinion on geometry of turning. Does Nissan know this?

[garyshell]

The videos I saw never showed the car making a sharp hair-pin turn... Is it because it cant make one very good ????

No, it can barely turn at all. Dan Gurney and Nissan didn't even bother to vet the engineering and never looked at the drawings and just signed on to the project without any idea if it would work. Oh, and Danica is the best race driver who ever walked the earth. I also have a parcel of swamp land in Arizona for sale if you are interested.

Gary

[DanicaFan]

No, it can barely turn at all. Dan Gurney and Nissan didn't even bother to vet the engineering and never looked at the drawings and just signed on to the project without any idea if it would work. Oh, and Danica is the best race driver who ever walked the earth. I also have a parcel of swamp land in Arizona for sale if you are interested.

Gary

Danica is an awesome driver, I agree... :)

But Im sorry, that car could not make an efficient turn at some sharp hair-pin turns. Can you honestly see that thing turing that hairpin at Long Beach ? With a long nose like that, the design would force the drivers to make single file runs around sharp turns, no passing and side by side, it wouldnt be possible, not to mention boring racing.

[FIAT1]

Danica is an awesome driver, I agree... :)

But Im sorry, that car could not make an efficient turn at some sharp hair-pin turns. Can you honestly see that thing turing that hairpin at Long Beach ? With a long nose like that, the design would force the drivers to make single file runs around sharp turns, no passing and side by side, it wouldnt be possible, not to mention boring racing.

Where you there or you came to conclusion from you tube video like the other experts? Marino Francitti has very different opinion. Agree on Danica, she is a awesome driver, it is her racing skill that is much to be desired.

[nigelred5]

Well, to be honest, we see single file at most Tracks with a hairpin. I would be more concerned that drivers would have difficulty judging where the rear wheels are in close quarters.

It's interesting looking at how much the actual racing car is from the two seat concept. From the rear, other than the lack of a rear wing, it's pretty difficult to tell it from any other prototype.

[anthonyvop]

I was a doubter until last Friday when I saw it in person on the track and got a look at it close up. It works and it will work.

Now the naysayers will say "I told you so" if it doesn't win.

[garyshell]

Anthony,

I have been searching for any video from the Sebring rollout. Do you know if there is any posted on the web?

Gary

[Lousada]

I was a doubter until last Friday when I saw it in person on the track and got a look at it close up. It works and it will work.

Now the naysayers will say "I told you so" if it doesn't win.

Of course it performs up to the standards... if those standards are set by themselves. Build this concept to LMP2 regulations and see what happens. Or allow proper square platforms build to Delta Wing regulations. My guess is: on an equal playing field the square platform always wins.

[FIAT1]

Gordon Kirby - Auto Racing - The Way It Is (http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2012/the_way_it_is_no327.html) .

[garyshell]

Gordon Kirby - Auto Racing - The Way It Is (http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2012/the_way_it_is_no327.html) .

Great article!

Gary

[DanicaFan]

Have you seen it make a hair-pin turn ? I havent and I havent heard anyone say they have either. I would love to see this monstrosity make the sharp hair pin at Long Beach. It would look ridiculously stupid doing it and extremely slow at making it.....lol

[garyshell]

Have you seen it make a hair-pin turn ? I havent and I havent heard anyone say they have either. I would love to see this monstrosity make the sharp hair pin at Long Beach. It would look ridiculously stupid doing it and extremely slow at making it.....lol

And you would know this, how? If your engineering prowess is anything like your race prediction prowess, you might want to rethink this assertion.

Gary

[Andrewmcm]

Have you seen it make a hair-pin turn ? I havent and I havent heard anyone say they have either. I would love to see this monstrosity make the sharp hair pin at Long Beach. It would look ridiculously stupid doing it and extremely slow at making it.....lol

So by the same token, how can you comment on how this car will perform when you have not see it perform? How can you be so sure it wouldn't make a tight corner? Perhaps you would care to comment on your Engineering experience, and then we can decide whether or not your comments bear any weight at all.

I'm looking forward to seeing this car in action. I have no current opinion either way on whether this car will work on all types of circuit. For information I hold a Masters Degree in Physics with Astrophysics, and a PhD in Computational Fluid Dynamics. I've also done a little bit of automotive CFD in my time.

Whether it works or not, this car will leave a lot of people looking stupid on either side of the fence.

[DanicaFan]

Im not an engineer but with a long nose on a car like that, commen sense kicks in that it could not make a sharp turn. Its not physically possible. It would have to go wide.

[Andrewmcm]

To quote Gordon Kirby in that article - "Imagine yourself fifty or sixty years ago as a fan of the beautiful Indy roadsters of the late 50s and early 60s or the classic Maserati 250F, Mercedes-Benz W196 or Dino Ferrari Formula One cars from the mid-fifties. If I suggested to you that those superb cars were about to be replaced by an invasion of tiddly little rear-engine Coopers and Lotuses you would have said I was crazy. But it happened, almost overnight, between 1958-'61 in F1 and 1963-'66 in Indy cars. "

Common sense means nothing in Engineering. The Indy boys in the early 60s would have looked at rear-engined cars and laughed their heads off. They were soon laughing on the other side of their faces when they got blown away by rear-engined cars. Go back in time to the 1910s and show someone an A380 and they would think you were mental if you suggested that thing could fly. We only perceive the Delta Wing car to be ridiculous because it is a radical concept. It may work, it may not work. If it does work you can be sure that it will be adopted pretty sharpish by manufacturers as a lot of its technology seems to be relevant to what really matters - cars that will be on the road in future.

[anthonyvop]

Anthony,

I have been searching for any video from the Sebring rollout. Do you know if there is any posted on the web?

Gary



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QwpOpfHycU


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Alt6HfokxEg

[anthonyvop]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wlQAvEfmeI

[wedge]

To quote Gordon Kirby in that article - "Imagine yourself fifty or sixty years ago as a fan of the beautiful Indy roadsters of the late 50s and early 60s or the classic Maserati 250F, Mercedes-Benz W196 or Dino Ferrari Formula One cars from the mid-fifties. If I suggested to you that those superb cars were about to be replaced by an invasion of tiddly little rear-engine Coopers and Lotuses you would have said I was crazy. But it happened, almost overnight, between 1958-'61 in F1 and 1963-'66 in Indy cars. "

Common sense means nothing in Engineering. The Indy boys in the early 60s would have looked at rear-engined cars and laughed their heads off. They were soon laughing on the other side of their faces when they got blown away by rear-engined cars. Go back in time to the 1910s and show someone an A380 and they would think you were mental if you suggested that thing could fly. We only perceive the Delta Wing car to be ridiculous because it is a radical concept. It may work, it may not work. If it does work you can be sure that it will be adopted pretty sharpish by manufacturers as a lot of its technology seems to be relevant to what really matters - cars that will be on the road in future.

All due respect to Gordon Kirby but its not a good analogy.

The mid-engined cars was born out of the spirit of racing and competition.

Where did Delta Wing come from? A design brief that called for gimmicky cars.

If there was series that called for wingless cars would the DW concept succeed?

[garyshell]

Im not an engineer but with a long nose on a car like that, commen sense kicks in that it could not make a sharp turn. Its not physically possible. It would have to go wide.

Would that be the same "common sense" that had you pick Danica to win every single IndyCar was she ever entered?

Gary

[garyshell]

Thank you for the video links, Anthony!

Gary

[anthonyvop]

All due respect to Gordon Kirby but its not a good analogy.

The mid-engined cars was born out of the spirit of racing and competition.

Where did Delta Wing come from? A design brief that called for gimmicky cars.

If there was series that called for wingless cars would the DW concept succeed?

Actually the Delta Wing was born as a response to a request for design by the Indy Car Series that met certain performance and safety parameters much like many other series.

[garyshell]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QBh6rLjhSQ&feature=player_embedded

More video from Sebring.

Gary

[wedge]

Actually the Delta Wing was born as a response to a request for design by the Indy Car Series that met certain performance and safety parameters much like many other series.

True, I was being harsh.

Such radical designs interpreted by DW, Swift, et al can be argued appropriately as gimmicks.

[call_me_andrew]

Bowlby was in London early last week for Nissan's announcement that its turbocharged 1.6 liter direct injection four-cylinder engine will power the Delta Wing. The engine makes 300 bhp at 7,500 rpm and the 1,000 pound Delta Wing (475 kilograms dry and 575 kilos with driver and fuel) is designed to produce competitive lap times using half the fuel of a conventional car. Congratulations to NIssan for taking the plunge with the Delta Wing and shame on the domestic manufacturers for shying away from it.

"This car was designed for what the auto industry stated they wanted," Bolwby said.

I thought automakers were looking to make more powerful engines that consume less fuel. This is a less powerful engine that consumes less fuel. That's neither bold nor radical; that's a formula for more pack racing.

[anthonyvop]

I thought automakers were looking to make more powerful engines that consume less fuel. This is a less powerful engine that consumes less fuel. That's neither bold nor radical; that's a formula for more pack racing.

Pack racing is a phenomena of Flat out, all the way around, oval racing. Rarely happens in road racing. Even in spec series set-up and Talent separates most.

[shazbot]

The demonstration run at Sebring was just that - a demonstration. Issues with the gearbox (among other things) kept speed and laps down. RML will take the car from AAR and continue development in the UK.

[chuck34]

The demonstration run at Sebring was just that - a demonstration. Issues with the gearbox (among other things) kept speed and laps down. RML will take the car from AAR and continue development in the UK.

RML? I'm missing that one, who is that? Brain fart or something.

[SoCalPVguy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QBh6rLjhSQ&feature=player_embedded

More video from Sebring.

Gary

Thnaks Gary. I see slow speeds, wide turns, lots of under-steer and nowhere near the apex rumble strips

[chuck34]

Thnaks Gary. I see slow speeds, wide turns, lots of under-steer and nowhere near the apex rumble strips

I noticed the missed apexes too. Although I'm not 100% sure as to the cause of it. It could be just normal shake down, take it easy type of stuff. But I'm really starting to wonder if it's more about Marino (or any driver) not really knowing where to put the car on track because he (or she) does not really have a good way of judging how wide the car is. That could have really "interesting" effects if/when this thing ever gets into traffic.

[FIAT1]

Great picture! http://ow.ly/i/woZI

[anthonyvop]

I noticed the missed apexes too. Although I'm not 100% sure as to the cause of it. It could be just normal shake down, take it easy type of stuff. But I'm really starting to wonder if it's more about Marino (or any driver) not really knowing where to put the car on track because he (or she) does not really have a good way of judging how wide the car is. That could have really "interesting" effects if/when this thing ever gets into traffic.

It wasn't even a shake down. i was just a few laps to show off the car to the press and public. They are testing the car now at Sebring.

[chuck34]

It wasn't even a shake down. i was just a few laps to show off the car to the press and public. They are testing the car now at Sebring.

Cool. It will be interesting to see how the actual testing shakes out.

[FIAT1]

Great picture! Ow.ly - image uploaded by @highcroftracing (Highcroft Racing) (http://ow.ly/i/woZI)

....or is it that fast already? (HUMOR)

[shazbot]

RML? I'm missing that one, who is that? Brain fart or something.

Home - RML Group - From Concept to Reality (http://www.rmlmallock.co.uk/)

The Delta Wing's Nissan motor is developed and built by RML.

[Hoop-98]

It wasn't even a shake down. i was just a few laps to show off the car to the press and public. They are testing the car now at Sebring.

How quick/not quick Anthony?

[anthonyvop]

The coolest shot I have seen in a long time

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/559959_372035439494215_100000632876864_1187565_170 3993159_n.jpg

[call_me_andrew]

Pack racing is a phenomena of Flat out, all the way around, oval racing. Rarely happens in road racing. Even in spec series set-up and Talent separates most.

Yes and the delta wing was designed to race on ovals as an Indycar. The delta wing is underpowered (thus it has a low top speed) and very light (thus it never has to lift on ovals). The Delta Wing is as wrong for ovals as it is for Long Beach.

[FIAT1]

.........

[FIAT1]

My mistake , never mind.

[DanicaFan]

This car doesnt belong in Indycar...technically it's not even an open wheeled car....lol

[anthonyvop]

Yes and the delta wing was designed to race on ovals as an Indycar. The delta wing is underpowered (thus it has a low top speed) and very light (thus it never has to lift on ovals). The Delta Wing is as wrong for ovals as it is for Long Beach.


What makes you think the Delta Wing would have had a low top speed?
The DW in ICS trim would have had a significantly smaller frontal area and so would have made up for any HP disadvantage. Also pack racing wasn't created by High Speeds but actually from too low of a top speed for the high down-force where the drivers could drive all the way around without ever lifting their foot off the throttle.

[anthonyvop]

This car doesnt belong in Indycar...technically it's not even an open wheeled car....lol

In its original IndyCar design it was.

http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/images/12/2010/02/delta_wing_race_car.jpg

[garyshell]

This car doesnt belong in Indycar...

Earth to DF, it's not in Indycar. It will run at LeMans.

Gary

[DanicaFan]

Earth to DF, it's not in Indycar. It will run at LeMans.

Gary

Well, no kidding. I knew that, I was making a statement about the car ever even being in Indycar..... get a grip mate.

[garyshell]

Earth to DF, it's not in Indycar. It will run at LeMans.

Gary


Well, no kidding. I knew that, I was making a statement about the car ever even being in Indycar..... get a grip mate.

One can never be certain, when dealing with someone who uses "Danica Patrick- 2012 Nationwide Series Champion" as their signature line.

Gary

[FIAT1]

One can never be certain, when dealing with someone who uses "Danica Patrick- 2012 Nationwide Series Champion" as their signature line.

Gary

LOL!!!

[Marbles]

I noticed the missed apexes too. Although I'm not 100% sure as to the cause of it. It could be just normal shake down, take it easy type of stuff. But I'm really starting to wonder if it's more about Marino (or any driver) not really knowing where to put the car on track because he (or she) does not really have a good way of judging how wide the car is. That could have really "interesting" effects if/when this thing ever gets into traffic.

Good point! All these drivers have always used the front corner of the car for reference of the apex which obviously won't work here (in the traditional sense). Although this was a display, having the front corner of the car a foot away from the apex of the curbing will certainly give the impression of understeer or a missed apex from certain viewpoints.

[heliocastroneves#3]

One can never be certain, when dealing with someone who uses "Danica Patrick- 2012 Nationwide Series Champion" as their signature line.

Gary

Once again a reply by Gary which made me laughing out loud. :D

[garyshell]

Once again a reply by Gary which made me laughing out loud. :D

Enjoy the brisket, I'll be here all week! Be sure to tip your waiters.

Gary

[Nem14]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wlQAvEfmeI

It looks like the car is hitting the apexes in this video with no problems.

[call_me_andrew]

What makes you think the Delta Wing would have had a low top speed?
The DW in ICS trim would have had a significantly smaller frontal area and so would have made up for any HP disadvantage. Also pack racing wasn't created by High Speeds but actually from too low of a top speed for the high down-force where the drivers could drive all the way around without ever lifting their foot off the throttle.

It had a low top speed because the engine only produces 300 horsepower. And I don't care what the nose on that display piece looked like; that was just a mockup, not a functioning prototype.

Going around a corner with the throttle wide open doesn't require an ounce of downforce. NASCAR managed to prove that the day it opened Daytona.

[anthonyvop]

It had a low top speed because the engine only produces 300 horsepower.

How do you know it has a low top speed?


And I don't care what the nose on that display piece looked like; that was just a mockup, not a functioning prototype.

Going around a corner with the throttle wide open doesn't require an ounce of downforce. NASCAR managed to prove that the day it opened Daytona.

You really need to read up on modern race car dynamics. I don't care what car you are driving or what track. If you are going around 200 MPH into a corner you are going to ease up on the throttle or hit the brakes unless you have some serious down force and grip. Even at Daytona it wasn't till the "Aero-Wars" of the late 1960 did the speeds climbed astronomically.

[call_me_andrew]

It has a low top speed because it only has 300 horsepower. I have to keep repeating this because you seem unaware that this is a low number.

Even in the inaugural Daytona 500, drivers weren't lifting in the turns. As the Delta Wing is so light, it's sure to have plenty of mechanical grip in a wide-radius turn, and that's before we take banking into account.

[garyshell]

It has a low top speed because it only has 300 horsepower. I have to keep repeating this because you seem unaware that this is a low number.

Horsepower alone does NOT indicate top speed. There are other factors, not the least of which is weight, and if memory serves me, that was one of the things that was supposed to be very different about the Deltawing.

Gary

[beachbum]

Weight typically doesn't impact top speed, just how quickly you get there. Top speed is limited by aero drag and frictional drag equaling the available HP.

However, given a defined distance, a heavy car may not have the space to accelerate to it's top speed before it runs out of room, but that is a different matter. Most tracks don't give enough room to get to a stable top speed, but at ones that do (Le Mans, Daytona), HP and drag will determine the faster car.

[Mark in Oshawa]

People keep trying to prove this thing wont work, and yet with every new piece of footage I see, it seems clear it does. As for the top speed, frontal area, drag and downforce all are mixed in with the effect of horsepower and gearing to give us a top speed. With 300hp, they really need to have low drag (which means little downforce) to get a big top speed. Then you look at the car, and you realize there is very little drag in that small needle nose and slick bodywork. If NASCAR can have a restricted engine with 450hp run `180mph with all that frontal area, then I think the Delta Wing has the potential to rip along at LeMans as fast or maybe faster than the GT's with just 300hp. It will be interesting to see, but it is clear to me Bowlby's theories are pretty much dead on so far...

[Nem14]

It will never turn.

It doesn't have enough power.

The check is in the mail.

AutoRacing1.com - Hot News Page (http://autoracing1.com/hotnews.asp?tid=60166)

[DBell]

It will never turn.

It doesn't have enough power.

The check is in the mail.

AutoRacing1.com - Hot News Page (http://autoracing1.com/hotnews.asp?tid=60166)

I think it's a pretty impressive debut for the Delta Wing. Qualifying times at Le Mans puts in the back part of the LMP2 field. I would be curious to see how it would fair against Le Mans cars at a different type of track, say like Brands Hatch or Laguna Seca. Could it keep that speed at a twistier track where top end speed isn't as important? I hope it does well, though I think it will be a serious challange to make it all the way through the 24 hours.

IMO, not fast enough to be the next generation IndyCar like the original concept was planned.

[nigelred5]

realistically, we're looking at a very different car than the single seat Indycar version

[Nem14]

But it still proves the basic DeltaWing concept - substantially reduced frontal area, 1/2 the weight, 1/2 the horsepower, and 1/2 the drag - is a lot more viable than many so-called 'experts' pronounced it would be.

[nigelred5]

Valiant effort by Motoyama to get the car back to the pits after being drop kicked off the track by Nakajima.. one thing is certain, Japanese drivers have perfected the art of the crash. They weren't being scored officially, so I feel they should have been allowed a tow back to the pits for repairs. I think they proved the concept worksat LeMans but it's going to need so show what it can do on a much tighter course. I'd like to see them be approved to run in P2 as a full competetor next year. Oh, and paint the car a color someone can actually see!. Between the very small frontal area, the small overall size of the car and the stealth paint job, drivers could not see the car.

[call_me_andrew]

The DeltaWing concept has raised one very interesting question: what would happen if you put wheels on a Flesh Light?

[nigelred5]

lol, you've been on two many "adult" sites.

I think they call that one the "Black Momba" ;)