Who are the most overated drivers in F1 at the moment.

[Retro Formula 1]

In response to the best drivers thread.

Top 3:

1. Schumacher
2. Massa
3. Alguersuari or Webber

[MrJan]

Sorry, have you just said that the 7 time World Champion is overrated? Fair enough he ain't gonna win anything now but....

In no particular order: Heidfeld, Massa, Rosberg

[Retro Formula 1]

Sorry, have you just said that the 7 time World Champion is overrated? Fair enough he ain't gonna win anything now but....

In no particular order: Heidfeld, Massa, Rosberg

Yep. Waste of a good seat at the moment in my opinion. The clue was in the question i.e. "at the moment".

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Everyone keeps saying Perez is the next big thing. Why? Apart from making tyres last in one race, what has he done?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

In response to the best drivers thread.

Top 3:

1. Schumacher
2. Massa
3. Alguersuari or Webber

People rate Alguersuari?

[MrJan]

Yep. Waste of a good seat at the moment in my opinion. The clue was in the question i.e. "at the moment".

That depends how you're defining overrated. If waste of a seat then that would apply to about half of the grid that won't ever set the world alight but do bring in the cash. And what about the lower teams? Is it really possible to describe either HRT driver as overrated? Neither are anywhere near as good as Schumacher though so by that standard shirley it's hypocritical to judge him by a different standard.

IMO 'waste of a seat' and overrated are two completely different things. E.G Massa is overrated at Ferrari but if he was at STR or Williams then he wouldn't be. Mind you by the same criteria I think that Maldonado is underrated while at Williams :)

[MrJan]

And who picked Vettel as overrated? :p :

[Retro Formula 1]

And who picked Vettel as overrated? :p :

I should imagine someone that feels the car flatters him. Seb is being hailed as the latest, greatest but like Schumy, it's easy to look outstanding when your car is so far ahead of the rest of the field.

Fair argument I suppose.

[Big Ben]

Schumi.... best ever my @$$.

[MrJan]

I should imagine someone that feels the car flatters him. Seb is being hailed as the latest, greatest but like Schumy, it's easy to look outstanding when your car is so far ahead of the rest of the field.

Fair argument I suppose.

The fact that his team mate isn't exactly setting the grid alight shows, IMO, that the car isn't quite as good in race trim as a lot of people think. Also the fact that he won his first race in a vastly weaker car and the wet (where I believe true drivers show their talent) is quite telling. I can sort of see why some don't like the hype around him, but I'm not convinced that he's any more overrated than any other driver.

[Dave B]

Sorry, have you just said that the 7 time World Champion is overrated? Fair enough he ain't gonna win anything now but....

In no particular order: Heidfeld, Massa, Rosberg

And yet you've nominated as over-rated the guy who's beaten that 7 time Champion in almost every session this year and last. Strange :\

[MrJan]

And yet you've nominated as over-rated the guy who's beaten that 7 time Champion in almost every session this year and last. Strange :\

Why is that an issue? What has Schumacher got to do with me thinking that Rosberg is overrated, other than the fact that they drive the same colour car? I haven't heard anyone really saying that they're expecting great things from Schumacher, quite the opposite in fact as many say he's past it. Nico on the other hand has a lot of people fussing about the fact that he's outperforming Michael. Rosberg beating MS is to be expected and for that reason I think that many are making it out to be a bigger acheivment than it actually is :)

[UltimateDanGTR]

Buemi-I don't rate this guy much, I think Ricciardo is a far better prospect than any of the two STR drivers, Alguersuari I havn't voted for because I don't consider him to be that highly rated anyway. Jarno and Sutil were my other choices, Sutil for being beaten by his rookie team mate so far this year (Ok except monaco, granted) and Jarno for not matching his team mate, despite the fact many people will point out the good years he had with jordan as proof of his driving ability.

[jens]

Overrated by who? Teams? Fans?

If by teams, then I have to say that Ferrari is being increasingly kind in their belief in Massa.

Probably year ago Schumacher was overrated, because people kept saying that "once he adapts to the car/regulations, he will start doing miracles again." Obviously not any more and by now people have got used to it.

I think general expectations were higher on Heidfeld pre-11 than it has turned out so far. Actually now it looks like that his career peaked in 2007, when he managed an excellent season. But he has never managed to replicate that sort of form again, struggling mainly in qualis from then onwards.

Rookie drivers tend to get rated extremely highly if they happen to start their careers well. Kobayashi, di Resta and Pérez are drivers that may or may not turn out to be overrated, time will tell. Regarding Kobayashi I have to say that 'spectacular driving style' has always made people being more impressed than overall performance itself (case with Mansell and Montoya), so he has still a fair amount of proving to do.


Jarno for not matching his team mate, despite the fact many people will point out the good years he had with jordan as proof of his driving ability.

Actually it is 3-3 in races at the moment for Jarno. And like M.Schumacher, Webber and Heidfeld, he is not performing at his best any more (well, at least in qualis), so I don't see, how does this take anything away from the Jordan days.

[CNR]

And who picked Vettel as overrated? :p :
i would say some lewis fan

[Koz]

Everyone keeps saying Perez is the next big thing. Why? Apart from making tyres last in one race, what has he done?

Flavor of the week really.

Just like the love-hate we've had with Petrov in recent times...

There is a good possibility we have been overrating Kobayashi, Webber and Vettel.

Webber has really done nothing special, except throw away his c'ship last year. Vetter clearly has had the fastest car for the last 3 odd years and he made it work, I'd love to see him fight it out with an inferior car - like Alonso did last year.

Rubens - really, I can see no reason whatsoever why this man deserves a drive in F1 at the moment. He did nothing special when he had the fastest car on the grid on '09. He should go home.

Massa - he has never been the same since the accident - or his team mates have been vastly overrated, by whom I mean Shoe and Kimi.

How someone can say Alonso is overrated I will never understand.
Kobayashi, we haven't had the opportunity of seeing him against a good team mate. And he does have balls of steel, but I have never had any confidence in his qualifying - and Perez has proved me right in the last few races. The question remains, does balls make up for outright speed? I hope so.

Nick - I am not sure what to say. He hasn't done all that great. However he has never really has a decent car, even now he has constant problems. But in the end we have always judged him against team mates and he has performed well against them including the likes of Kimi (albeit his first season) he was only beaten by Kubica.

[Koz]

Hey Retro, you should start a thread for most underrated driver too :)

[rjbetty]

Oh my goodness, I've been doing an over-rated and under-rated thread at my primary online hangout place www.ssr-fanclub.enjin.com (http://www.ssr-fanclub.enjin.com) recently. Then I come on here for the first time in a while and see you lot have done one at the same time as me. Maybe I can copy and paste my opinionated writings over here too?

[Roamy]

you can - just do it

[F1boat]

Rosberg. He has won nothing in F1 and is claimed to be almost as equal to Vettel and Lewis, better than Jenson and as fast as MS in his prime. All of the mentioned drivers are world champions. Rosberg has zero wins. Nuff said.

[AndyL]

I think general expectations were higher on Heidfeld pre-11 than it has turned out so far. Actually now it looks like that his career peaked in 2007, when he managed an excellent season. But he has never managed to replicate that sort of form again, struggling mainly in qualis from then onwards.

Really? I got the impression that most people's expectations of Heidfeld were low - plenty of posters expected him to be soundly beaten by Petrov. I think the general expectation was that he would do better than Petrov but not as well as Kubica would have done, which seems about right so far.

In fact your own prediction (http://www.motorsportforums.com/f1/141596-seasons-predictions.html#post897465) was for him to have consistent points finishes, which he has had 4 times out of 6 including a 3rd place, so I don't see how you can say he hasn't met your expectations ;)

[UltimateDanGTR]

I wonder who voted for Jenson...

[rjbetty]

OK, I'm copying and pasting from www.ssr-fanclub.enjin.com (http://www.ssr-fanclub.enjin.com) where I started threads for over-rated and under-rated drivers, then I came here and the same threads have been started here too!

I'm bored, so I thought I'd cause a disagreement.

FELIPE MASSA
=============
WHY IS HE RATED SO HIGHLY - THE PERCEPTION:
===========================================
Outqualified Nick Heidfeld on debut.
In 2004, outqualified Fisichella 6 times (so the statistics say...)
Outperformed champion Jacques Villeneuve n 2005.
Compared very well with M.Schumacher at Ferrari in 2006, often beating him. Beat Fisichella to 3rd in the overall standings!
Matched Kimi Raikkonen in 2007 and beat him in 2008 and 2009, so almost winning the title.

Why he isn't THAT good:
===================
Apart from debut race, performed much worse against Nick Heidfeld in 2002 tha Kimi Raikkonen in 2002 (giving a picture of the talent difference betwwen Massa and Kimi). Did not prove himself trustworthy enough to be retained by Sauber for 2003 as he spun everywhere and was wild. He was replaced by Frentzen. Massa was also banned from the US GP for dangerous driving in Italy.
In 2004 people made a big deal about how he outperformed Giancarlo Fisichella(!) In reality, Fisi fairly thrashed him. The statistics say Felipe started ahead 6 times, but here is the trurh:
Australia 2004: Fisi was better would have started ahead but made a huge mistake on his qualifying lap.
Malsysia: One of only 2 races in which Felipe proved quicker by the slimmest of margins
Imola: Only ahead because Fisichella changed an engine, and started 20th and last, one place behind Kimi Raikkonen. Giancarlo finished 9th, 1 second behind Raikkonen and 1 place AHEAD of Massa!
Europe: Same as Imola, but by an even grater margin. Fisi started last in a Sauber, yet still finished 6th, close to beating Alonso's Renault!!! By the way, Massa who started well ahead finished 3 places behind Fisi - out of the points.
Britain: See above. Fisi had to start last again, yet in the race finished 6th all over the back of Juan Montoya in a Williams. Massa who again started from a normal osition meanwhile, trailed behind in 9th again.
Brazil: Only the second time in 18 races Felipe was quicker. He started 7th places ahead of Fisi - 4th on the grid! He even led the race through strategy, this perception maing him look like he was thrashing Fisi. The reality was Giancarlo was taking a long-term approach and this was proven when he finished just 1.532sec behind at the end of the race. This showed that Fisi was a tiny fraction slower all weekend. Good job Fisi didn't retire fro the race or he would have looked BAD! Interesting, the difference between perception and reality.

Massa did do well in 2005, beating Jacques Villeneuve, but in truth any good driver could.

2006 was when Massa's reputation really took off: He started ahead of Michael on several occasions, and beat him in races, Problem was, no-one was taking into account that frankly, Michael was past it by then. The new (and current) qualifying format is split into 3 sections. That makes 54 over a season of 18 races.What people again didn't notice was that he tended to run lighter than Michael. When qualifying times were fuel-corrected, it was shown that Massa was genuinely quicker than Michael in just 2 of 54 sessions, though it is really less than 54 because most drivers failes to set representative times in all sessions, or even get through to Q2 and Q3. As a comparison, Fisichella trailed Alonso buy just 19-29. Fisi was also 0.130sec off Alonso on average. Massa was nearer to 0.4s off Michael. He did do a great job to pip Fisi to 3rd in the championship, but the Ferrari for many races enjoyed a dominant advantage that the Renault just about never did. The statistics and perception showed Massa totally showed Fisi up, especially as Massa was ahead of Fisi, while Alonso was ahead of Schumacher. The truth was probably was that he did well but only at best, matched the underperforming Giancarlo, who still compared better to Alonso than Massa did with Michael. And surely Alonso was simply better than Schumacher that season.

In 2007 Massa matched Raikkonen in qualifying and finished just 16 points behind. Trouble was, he ran lighter than Kimi in qualifying, and Raikkonen truthfully wasn't settling into Ferrari well and underperformed, thus making Massa look better. Now if Massa had beaten a 2005 spec or earlier Raikkonen... In following seasons, he beat Raikkonen, but really Kimi's heart wasn't in it anymore, so he was well below his average, and therefore much easier to beat. The perception of course was that Massa was beating the brilliant Raikkonen of say 2005.

Since Alonso joined Ferrari, Felipe has become very Fisichella-esque. It's very interesting that Alonso said recently he enjoyed his biggest ever advantage over a team-mate in 2010. Alonso obviously wasn't counting Tarso Marques, Alex Yoong and Jacques Villeneuve. But it says that Fernando doesn't rate him as highly as Fisichella and Jarno Trulli. Massa does appear to be further off Fernando than those two were. Before anyone says about how Massa isn't at his best, I know. I do believe he isn't the same guy as in 2008 (though I didnt watch F1 in 2008), but then if other drivers have to only be judged by their worst, then maybe Felipe should be too.

[Mr. Mister]

In order as they appear in the poll:

Michael Schumacher. He was one of the best, and I'm not denying that, but he's not some superhuman who can defy reality. In an average car, and in older age, he's exactly what anyone else would be. A talented driver who found success in the perfect situation, and you can't discredit what he did, but that doesn't mean he can go out and do that at will.

Nico Rosberg. Never saw anything in him after his debut race, and I still don't. He never finishes better than you'd expect him to, he couldn't win when he had a shot earlier last year. Name and nationality have kept him in the rides, but to be honest, he's just a meh kind of driver. What's he ever really done that was so good?

Kamui Kobayashi. He makes an overtake and he's the Second Coming. He's fun to watch when he's on a charge, but he's very incomplete as a driver, and he's not going to get to that level. Just because he's overrated doesn't mean he's crap...it just means he's not a future World Champion that's on the short lists for Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren, etc. He's a good guy for an alright team, and he adds something to the races, but contending for race wins isn't it.

Sergio Pérez. I don't know why Ferrari signed this kid. Maybe FIAT sell carbon fiber to the other teams and they're trying to prolong his career. I don't know. Way too erratic. His junior racing record improves as the series get harder, which I will admit is a decent sign, but he was complete **** in Skip Barber, which is the lowest possible formula car racing in America. So, of course, he just moved up to FBMW after being horrible, and he wasn't anything worth talking about there. So logically, he should just keep climbing...and after years in GP2, he wins some sprint races against one of the weaker fields in series history and is declared the next big talent. Color me skeptical.

Jaime Alguersuari. He wasn't ready for F1. He still doesn't look ready for F1.

Adrian Sutil. He has plenty of detractors, but those who hail him as a wet weather god, or link him to teams on the further end of the grid, well...he's a bit like Massa. He was bad. He got better. He got bad again. Though he was never as good as Massa when he was good. This season he's pitiful. And after years of being linked to Renault, something tells me a little incident will prevent that. Oops.

[ioan]

Massa - he has never been the same since the accident - or his team mates have been vastly overrated, by whom I mean Shoe and Kimi.

How someone can say Alonso is overrated I will never understand.

How anyone can say that a 7 times F1 Champion is overrated but a 2 times can not be, all in the same post, I will never understand (or maybe I do but do not want to comment it :p )

[ioan]

Rosberg. He has won nothing in F1 and is claimed to be almost as equal to Vettel and Lewis, better than Jenson and as fast as MS in his prime. All of the mentioned drivers are world champions. Rosberg has zero wins. Nuff said.

Exactly, but how dare you put facts in the way of the wonderful bias?! ;)

[ioan]

I wonder who voted for Jenson...

I for one did not, just to make sure no one points fingers.

[ioan]

In 2004 people made a big deal about how he outperformed Giancarlo Fisichella(!) In reality, Fisi fairly thrashed him. The statistics say Felipe started ahead 6 times, but here is the trurh:
Australia 2004: Fisi was better would have started ahead but made a huge mistake on his qualifying lap.

So Fisi was better even though he made more and bigger mistakes? Funny that.

[jens]

Rosberg. He has won nothing in F1 and is claimed to be almost as equal to Vettel and Lewis, better than Jenson and as fast as MS in his prime. All of the mentioned drivers are world champions. Rosberg has zero wins. Nuff said.

Then again I wonder, what were people saying about Häkkinen and Button before they won WDC's? Oh, I remember back in 2008 some were thinking that Button barely deserves to be in F1 any more at all.

I can see that there are concerns about some aspects of Rosberg's driving, but overall he seems to have good pace (well, IMO he sort of looks like Button and Heidfeld (in his prime), but better in qualifying) and may turn out to be pleasantly competitive if Mercedes becomes a front-runner. To me Rosberg looks the sort of driver, who may be a bit dispirited if the car is uncompetitive (he was sometimes beaten by Nakajima in '08, when the car was slow and in worse races for MB Schumacher has beaten him), but I think if Nico gets his hands on a real rocket, he can be a fully committed force.


Really? I got the impression that most people's expectations of Heidfeld were low - plenty of posters expected him to be soundly beaten by Petrov. I think the general expectation was that he would do better than Petrov but not as well as Kubica would have done, which seems about right so far.

In fact your own prediction (http://www.motorsportforums.com/f1/141596-seasons-predictions.html#post897465) was for him to have consistent points finishes, which he has had 4 times out of 6 including a 3rd place, so I don't see how you can say he hasn't met your expectations ;)

Hmm, interesting, but I have to say that in qualis versus Petrov he has done worse than would have thought even despite scoring consistent points. :)
Depends, what can be meant by "low". Obviously a replacement driver isn't expected to do miracles straightaway, but I think part of Heidfeld's (higher) pre-season expectations were also based on the notion that Petrov is really a hopeless paydriver.

[ioan]

To me Rosberg looks the sort of driver, who may be a bit dispirited if the car is uncompetitive (he was sometimes beaten by Nakajima in '08, when the car was slow and in worse races for MB Schumacher has beaten him), but I think if Nico gets his hands on a real rocket, he can be a fully committed force.

One more reason not to rate him that high, he really is not made of the same stuff like MS, Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton.

[ioan]

Very true. Someone like Mark Webber has always been quick but waited many years for his first victory and that was in the best car on the grid. People seem to blame the fact Rosberg hasn't been fortunate to be gifted a win in both the mid field teams he's driven for so far. Perhaps he's having fun like Michael and just enjoying driving in F1? lol... I've seen people also on this thread suggest his surname has alot to do with him keeping his seat? If someone like Schumacher can carry out a 3 year contract and be excused because of his past reputation of winning (very impressive as it is), I don't see how Rosberg's surname can then be used as a snipe to put down his achievements. Seems like double standards to me. :)

Oh well, and me thinking this is about how good or overrated Rosberg is and not about him having fun or not in F1. I'm sure that even Naraian is having fun in F1 nowadays.

[Big Ben]

How anyone can say that a 7 times F1 Champion is overrated but a 2 times can not be, all in the same post, I will never understand (or maybe I do but do not want to comment it :p )

hiding behind silly numbers again? go check the dictionary and see how many people does overrating involve. you might get to the right conclusion that overrating ms for example has nothing to do with how one would rate, overrate or underrate any other driver... though chances are slim

[Big Ben]

Exactly, it shouldn't be purely about a driver having fun and in Nico's case I'm sure it isn't. He's like every driver in the sport, he wants to win not come along for the laugh.

You got it all wrong. it´s the other mercedes driver that's in it for the fun.. though I suspect the jokes on him. NR is clearly overrated. He never won in mediocre cars like MS would have.... if only he was younger.... and much better.

[rjbetty]

So Fisi was better even though he made more and bigger mistakes? Funny that.

I mean faster! :)

[ioan]

I mean faster! :)

Perez was also fast in Monaco, up to a point.

[ioan]

hiding behind silly numbers again? go check the dictionary and see how many people does overrating involve. you might get to the right conclusion that overrating ms for example has nothing to do with how one would rate, overrate or underrate any other driver... though chances are slim

It must be painful to be an Alonso fan and having to live with his performance levels of the last 4 years! The result of the pain show well in your posts! :laugh:

As for the numbers, well those are the only thing that remains after we brush aside hatred and other similar crap! Like it or not one driver dominates! :p

:)

[Hawkmoon]

Senna.... best ever my @$$.

I fixed it for you. ;)

[Koz]

How anyone can say that a 7 times F1 Champion is overrated but a 2 times can not be, all in the same post, I will never understand (or maybe I do but do not want to comment it :p )

This, sir, is a typical case of sarcasm failure on the interwebs. :)

[Big Ben]

It must be painful to be an Alonso fan and having to live with his performance levels of the last 4 years! The result of the pain show well in your posts! :laugh:

As for the numbers, well those are the only thing that remains after we brush aside hatred and other similar crap! Like it or not one driver dominates! :p

:)

yes. formula 1 makes me scream in pain :laugh: .

That means had MS died in the Silverstone crash he would have been a lesser driver, right?

[Big Ben]

I fixed it for you. ;)

I have no idea. I was too young. Did we have a "Senna best ever" thread back then? :p :

[Big Ben]

I think Button would be another good choice. He makes every now and then (when circumstances allow it) some risky choices and every time they pay off he's the new prost or some genius tactician. He's taking risks because he's slower and has nothing to lose.

[steveaki13]

In response to the best drivers thread.

Top 3:

1. Schumacher
2. Massa
3. Alguersuari or Webber

How can you think Schumi is over rated?

You don't even rate him high enough for him to be OVER rated. ;) :p :

[Garry Walker]

The most overrated driver is Rapunzel. He has a slave teammate, Helmut Marko polishing his turds whenever needed and by far the best car. Alonso and Hamilton in an equal car would destroy Rapunzel

[555-04Q2]

Massa is taking a hammering on the poll :(

Where's the love people...

[wedge]

The most overrated driver is Rapunzel. He has a slave teammate, Helmut Marko polishing his turds whenever needed and by far the best car. Alonso and Hamilton in an equal car would destroy Rapunzel

Webber admits he's struggling to maximise the tyres. Kimi and Alonso were struggling initially in the first half of 2007, trying to maximise the B'stone tyres after years of Michelin.


Mark Webber admits to tyre struggle | Red Bull | Formula 1 news, live F1 | ESPN F1 (http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport/story/50976.html?CMP=OTC-RSS)

"They are very different and the drivers are very sensitive to that (change)," he told rds.ca. "It's like a golfer or a tennis player changing his equipment. When you're at this level and trying to gain an edge with tiny details, the small changes can make big differences. But it's up to the drivers to adapt."



Massa is taking a hammering on the poll :(

Where's the love people...

Surprising. Pre-mid 2008 I would have undoubtedly called Massa over rated. We all know that Massa is a hot/cold driver.

Rosberg and Kubica warrants the tags as they have yet to drive for an apex team genuinely capable of winning WDC, the latter - I think some people just can't quite comprehend that the Pole has outdriven cars when he gets to be top dog.

[Roamy]

I heard today that merc will pay rosberg a ton of money and sign him thru 2015 - the other underachieving driver may get a two year extension as well. so ioan people referring to MS as overrated are only talking about the last two years. Now you know that excludes me cuz I knew the cheater was always overrated and he just came back and proved it.

[pino]

The most overrated driver is Rapunzel. He has a slave teammate, Helmut Marko polishing his turds whenever needed and by far the best car. Alonso and Hamilton in an equal car would destroy Rapunzel

Who's Rapunzel ? :p :

[odykas]

Schumi of course :devil:

[52Paddy]

I have selected Buemi. The guy has failed to impress me on any occasion since he came into F1. Now I hear that Alguersuari is getting the boot to make way for Ricciardo. It's typical Toro Rosso fashion to switch drivers on a regular basis but it's my opinion that Jaime has justified his seat with some 'racey' moments this season (and last) much more than Buemi ever has...and Buemi is only 20 or 21.

[P3ws]

If memory serves me right i see the same ppl saying NR is overrated that a year ago said hold your horses MS need some time to get into it.
Very funny.
Now these folks change their minds, MS is passed it already seems. None of NR´s teammates have trashed him not even Webbo when NR was rookie.

[woody2goody]

Sutil is the only one really that comes to mind, I think he's inconsistent and a bit erratic.

[steveaki13]

I am begging to think the same that for all Sutil's promise and ratings, he hasn't really performed as well as he should have.

[ioan]

If memory serves me right i see the same ppl saying NR is overrated that a year ago said hold your horses MS need some time to get into it.
Very funny.
Now these folks change their minds, MS is passed it already seems. None of NR´s teammates have trashed him not even Webbo when NR was rookie.

Just remind us (and yourself) how great was Nico yesterday. :)

[The Black Knight]

yes. formula 1 makes me scream in pain :laugh: .

That means had MS died in the Silverstone crash he would have been a lesser driver, right?

To be honest I always felt he lost maybe a tenth or so a lap due to that crash but have no way of backing that up, just a feeling really.

Most overrated driver in F1 at the moment - Heidfeld.

Schumacher proved on Sunday that he isn't. Amazing for a man of his age to be doing as he does.

[Big Ben]

Lewis has always been mocked for cracking under pressure at certain points and I have even seen this as a reason to claim he is overrated. Watching Vettel make a mistake under pressure on Sunday on the last lap of the race got me thinking. Are these guys human beings capable of making mistakes like you and I, or should Vettel have know better and be classed as an overrated choker like Lewis? Then again I'm sure the circumstances are very different for Lewis depending on who you ask. :)

The armchair specialist is a very demanding person

[Daniel]

Lewis has always been mocked for cracking under pressure at certain points and I have even seen this as a reason to claim he is overrated. Watching Vettel make a mistake under pressure on Sunday on the last lap of the race got me thinking. Are these guys human beings capable of making mistakes like you and I, or should Vettel have know better and be classed as an overrated choker like Lewis? Then again I'm sure the circumstances are very different for Lewis depending on who you ask. :)

How many accidents has Lewis caused and how many has Vettel caused.

[Daniel]

Thats something you'll have to work out all on your own mate. Look it up. ;)

I do believe you've just answered a rhetorical question.

[Shifter]

I'd have to say the first that came to mind is Sutil. A bit too many mistakes, lad, a few too many opportunities wasted. As for Lewis, well...how can he drive good, good, good and then suddenly do some things that make us go "Wait...what? WHY LEWIS, WHY?"

But it's difficult to be too hard on any of these guys the way the have to drive these new cars with all their newfangled buttons and what-not.

[ioan]

I do believe you've just answered a rhetorical question.

:up: :D

[Garry Walker]

How many accidents has Lewis caused and how many has Vettel caused.

Probably Rapunzel has caused more accidents.

[slinkster]

I voted Webber.

Dissappointed that Vettel has been so highly placed in this ... I think he's talented and is still young.

Massa- I had hopes for but I think he's signed his soul away being Ferrari's number two. He'll never get a look in.

[Alfa Fan]

With a couple of exceptions the overratedness of each driver is proportional to the number of wins they have!

[steveaki13]

With a couple of exceptions the overratedness of each driver is proportional to the number of wins they have!

What you mean Schumi is completley overated and Narain Karthikeyan is awesome. :p :

[BDunnell]

I have no idea what most of the posts, and votes, in this are on about. Vettel overrated? Come on. Schumacher overrated? No — he's now an underdog. Massively overrated by those who believe he can magically recapture his form from years ago, but they, thankfully, are in the minority amongst proper F1 enthusiasts, even in Germany. Massa? Not overrated, just plain finished as an F1 force, which is very sad. I voted for Rosberg, being as he is constantly touted by F1 journalists as a great prospect, but who just seems to have become utterly becalmed at Mercedes. Not his fault, and I would dearly love to see him win a GP, but I fear it's never going to happen.

[52Paddy]

Not his fault, and I would dearly love to see him win a GP, but I fear it's never going to happen.

En route to becoming another journeyman perhaps?

[The Black Knight]

En route to becoming another journeyman perhaps?

Hamilton rates Rosberg as one of his main rivals in F1 and reckons he is going to break through soon. I feel he is totally underrated as well myself.

[Daniel]

Hamilton rates Rosberg as one of his main rivals in F1 and reckons he is going to break through soon. I feel he is totally underrated as well myself.

Senna rated his nephew and that didn't seem to translate into performance.

[The Black Knight]

Senna rated his nephew and that didn't seem to translate into performance.

Senna rated his nephew when he was 8 years old. Hamilton and Rosberg have been racing together a long time and known each other for nearly 12 years so they know each other fairly well. I'd say Hamilton is in a better position to judge than Senna was when his nephew was so young.

Personally, I think Ross Brawn is a very good judge of driver and if he didn't feel Nico had World Championship potential I don't think he'd be so keen to keep him.

[Daniel]

Senna rated his nephew when he was 8 years old. Hamilton and Rosberg have been racing together a long time and known each other for nearly 12 years so they know each other fairly well. I'd say Hamilton is in a better position to judge than Senna was when his nephew was so young.

Personally, I think Ross Brawn is a very good judge of driver and if he didn't feel Nico had World Championship potential I don't think he'd be so keen to keep him.

Ross Brawn has Mercedes backing and Mercedes want a German driver.

[CNR]

http://i51.tinypic.com/14o9gkn.jpg
if they are not on the chart they are overrated

[The Black Knight]

Ross Brawn has Mercedes backing and Mercedes want a German driver.

They have that in Schumacher. There are plenty of German drivers to choose from on the grid.

[BDunnell]

They have that in Schumacher.

In Schumacher, they have a driver closer to the end of his career than the beginning.

[Mia 01]

Hamilton rates Rosberg as one of his main rivals in F1 and reckons he is going to break through soon. I feel he is totally underrated as well myself.

Hamilton rates?

[Mia 01]

Not giving an answer to a question that could be answered by looking through the archives of F1 history? Surely if you ask a rhetorical question you do it without expecting an answer in return?

I didn't answer it. I'll add a thumbs up to that too. Nice one guys.. :) :up: :up:

I give you one, the worst was Canada 08.

[Big Ben]

I give you one, the worst was Canada 08.

do you really believe that? I'm shocked

[Mia 01]

do you really believe that? I'm shocked

you are right, it was a monor one.

[Mia 01]

All drivers have races where they make mistakes Mia and drop it at a vital moment during a championship. Hamilton pulled out of his pit box and fiddled with buttons on his steering wheel whilst unaware two cars had stopped at the end of the pitlane. He crashed into Kimi and ended both their races. Rosberg did exactly the same thing yet he never gets a mention in that. It was stupid by Lewis but he made up for it by winning the championship that year. Vettel drove into the back of Webber during Fuji '07 in difficult positions. He took himself out and a driver from the sister team at the time. It happens but it was his fault. Alonso dropped it at Spa last season whilst pushing. It happens. Vettel made an error that could very well have ended his race in canada but he recovered. All drivers have brainfade or make errors!

The difference is people like you only contribute to a discussion when you feel you need to place criticism. 95% of your posts are anti Hamilton, and thats fine if thats your thing but you often say the most ridiculous things and when a question is put to you, you very rarely answer it.

If an accident that occured 3 season's ago is the lasting memory you have when trying to determine a driver ability level, I suggest you start watching the races.

Ofcourse, you are right as always. I counted it as one of the worst, but perhaps it wasn´t?

[ioan]

Hamilton rates Rosberg as one of his main rivals in F1 and reckons he is going to break through soon. I feel he is totally underrated as well myself.

And what exactly does Hamilton know when it comes to properly rating anything?!

[BDunnell]

And what exactly does Hamilton know when it comes to properly rating anything?!

And what exactly does ioan know when it comes to properly rating anything?

[ioan]

And what exactly does ioan know when it comes to properly rating anything?

A lot more than you can imagine. For example I always fail to run into other cars during overtaking. :p

PS: Why is that you have a tendency to bash the poster instead of intelligently answering the posts?

[BDunnell]

A lot more than you can imagine. For example I always fail to run into other cars during overtaking. :p

PS: Why is that you have a tendency to bash the poster instead of intelligently answering the posts?

I have never 'bashed' anyone whose views on a particular subject I respect, and I'm comfortable with that.

[ioan]

I have never 'bashed' anyone whose views on a particular subject I respect, and I'm comfortable with that.

Looks to me like you are gratuitously bashing other posters who didn't even address you in this thread before.
Had a bad day or something? Take it on the chin like a real one.

[BDunnell]

Looks to me like you are gratuitously bashing other posters who didn't even address you in this thread before.
Had a bad day or something? Take it on the chin like a real one.

Er... no.

[ioan]

Er... no.

Good, then no need to pick on others.

[Retro Formula 1]

And what exactly does Hamilton know when it comes to properly rating anything?!

Welllllllll, he is a F1 driver, a World Champion and widely considered to be one of the top 2 drivers in the World. I think that gives credibility to his opinion on rating his fellow drivers.

In fact, apart from your opinion, I suggest he is very well placed to rate the number 1 driver in the Mercedes team :p :

[i_max2k2]

Welllllllll, he is a F1 driver, a World Champion and widely considered to be one of the top 2 drivers in the World. I think that gives credibility to his opinion on rating his fellow drivers.

In fact, apart from your opinion, I suggest he is very well placed to rate the number 1 driver in the Mercedes team :p :

Well before the season started, Fernando Alonso, a double world champion, widely regarded as one of the top two F1 drivers in the world currently, I guess gives him more credibility then hamilton, singled out Michael Schumacher as still his greatest threat in a equal car, if you want I could dig out the link. Rating someone doesn't prove something to be a fact, if Rosberg has been faster then MSC for most part of the last year and a few times this year, doesn't make Rosberg a better driver then Michael, not that it doesn't mean he is a bad driver, but Rosberg has not won anything, he might be faster and getting slightly better results, but still he has not pushed the Mercedes into the to top 3/4 just by himself. The last few races, Michael has shown signs of his old self, and people have taken notice, that doesn't make Rosberg a bad driver. I can say this though that at their best day, Michael is a driver on a different level then Rosberg.

[rjbetty]

Well before the season started, Fernando Alonso, a double world champion, widely regarded as one of the top two F1 drivers in the world currently, I guess gives him more credibility then hamilton, singled out Michael Schumacher as still his greatest threat in a equal car, if you want I could dig out the link. Rating someone doesn't prove something to be a fact, if Rosberg has been faster then MSC for most part of the last year and a few times this year, doesn't make Rosberg a better driver then Michael, not that it doesn't mean he is a bad driver, but Rosberg has not won anything, he might be faster and getting slightly better results, but still he has not pushed the Mercedes into the to top 3/4 just by himself. The last few races, Michael has shown signs of his old self, and people have taken notice, that doesn't make Rosberg a bad driver. I can say this though that at their best day, Michael is a driver on a different level then Rosberg.

Me thinks Fernie may not really believe that and he was just saying that, to play some sort of psychological game or something.

OVER-RATED:
Kobayashi - people here saying he should be in Ferrari etc, and is a top 5 driver! Someone here said about how we all get fooled into thinking spectacular style = amazing talent (Mansell, Montoya). I agree.
Sutil - Linked with McLaren for 2010 even though he isn't as good as Kovalainen who he would have replaced! You'd think Sutil was comfortably the better of the two given the general perception. "Number 2" drivers who struggle in a team such as Kovalainen did are always under-rated, when in fact they are usually still better than most (think Barrichello 2002, I reckon he was probably the 2nd best driver that year - Kimi wasn't developed enough by then).
Buemi - Linked with top teams mid-2010, but exactly where would he have gone and who would he have replaced?
Chandhok - I got so fed up of everyone saying he was better than Bruno Senna when it just wasn't true.

[The Black Knight]

And what exactly does Hamilton know when it comes to properly rating anything?!

A lot more than you I'd imagine, especially when it comes to Rosberg a guy he has known and raced against since he was 13. Of course, it's all just assumptions but considering some of his performances in the Williams and how he has handled MS, I'm inclined to agree with Lewis.

[The Black Knight]

Me thinks Fernie may not really believe that and he was just saying that, to play some sort of psychological game or something.

OVER-RATED:
Kobayashi - people here saying he should be in Ferrari etc, and is a top 5 driver! Someone here said about how we all get fooled into thinking spectacular style = amazing talent (Mansell, Montoya). I agree.
Sutil - Linked with McLaren for 2010 even though he isn't as good as Kovalainen who he would have replaced! You'd think Sutil was comfortably the better of the two given the general perception. "Number 2" drivers who struggle in a team such as Kovalainen did are always under-rated, when in fact they are usually still better than most (think Barrichello 2002, I reckon he was probably the 2nd best driver that year - Kimi wasn't developed enough by then).
Buemi - Linked with top teams mid-2010, but exactly where would he have gone and who would he have replaced?
Chandhok - I got so fed up of everyone saying he was better than Bruno Senna when it just wasn't true.

Oh I'd say Fred most definitely believes that. He said before that Schumacher was the best driver he had ever raced against. He knows what the great man is capable of and you have nothing on which to base your assumption that he is playing mind games either.

[Big Ben]

why keep people mentioning ms' old self. Isn't this his old self? he had an older one?

[steveaki13]

Indeed. Drivers predictions are often wrong. I remember back in 2001 Liuzzi beat Michael Schumacher at his own karting track in Kerpen after an exciting battle. Michael was so impressed he said it would be no time before he was in F1 and was definately going to be a World Champion in the future.. Oops :p

Great drivers are not always great judges... :)


He may still win that Title. I hear next years Hispania could be around 10 seconds faster. :eek: :p :

[SGWilko]

I hear next years Hispania could be around 10 seconds faster. :eek: :p :

That'll put it near the midfield then..... ;)

[raphael_2]

I wouldn't read too much into what Fernando has said on Schumacher. He is clearly not the driver he once was, even in the last few races since Turkey which have been an improvement, I would not say he has had a clear pace advantage over Rosberg.

[Shak]

I voted for Hamilton but thinking on it now I probably should have voted for Vettel too. Right now he seems to me to be the most over-rated driver in F1. Now, don't get me wrong, he's a talented driver but until he's had a couple of years in not the fastest car, he won't have proved himself in my eyes anyway. There has been no stand-out, amazing drive by him, the majority of the races he's won have been from pole and yet people compare him to Schumacher which I really don't get

The reason I went for Hamilton is because whenever he makes mistakes or crashes into people, there's always those excuses that it's because he's a "racer" and "that's just his aggressive style"....any other driver that did that would be vilified and classed as a rubbish driver...

I'm confused as to why Massa is doing so well in this poll....I don't think he's over-rated, I think it's pretty well-established he's a so-so driver, I've never really seen any evidence that there's anyone who thinks he's any better than he actually is

And Schumacher too? OK maybe if it was last year, when it was thought by some that he could come back and start winning straight away but I think by now there aren't many people who really rate him as a driver at all anymore

[raphael_2]

Good points Shak, the problem is people tend to rate drivers on how they are performing 'now' and don't necessarily look at the longer term. On current form, you have to say Lewis Hamilton is most over-rated, he is making mistakes, and being beaten by a team-mate who is not as highly rated as he is - however all drivers go through blips and have a bad patch of results. Alonso could be next, or Vettel, and then they will be classified as most 'over-rated' - because as soon as world class drivers start making mistakes, they aren't performing as well as we have become accustomed to.

[Dave B]

I voted for Hamilton but thinking on it now I probably should have voted for Vettel too.
Two of only three drivers who have won races thus far in 2011, one of whom has taken pole in all bar one event.... over-rated?

Wow, you're hard to please. :s

[rabf1]

Rubins and Massa are the two luckiest guys ever. When will people wake up and realize they have no business being in F1?

Also, I think Ferrari have grossly overrated Fred. Giving this guy a contract until 2016 (when he will be 36) was foolish.

[Shak]

Two of only three drivers who have won races thus far in 2011, one of whom has taken pole in all bar one event.... over-rated?

Wow, you're hard to please. :s

It's not who's been the most successful, it's who's the most over-rated. And yep I stand by my opinion. That car is flattering Vettel right now. I'd like to see him in a situation where he has to really fight for victories and podiums and maybe then I'll believe the hype.

I'll admit the Hamilton thing is partly due to me being an Alonso fan but I still believe what I said earlier, there's always an excuse when Hamilton does poorly

[Dave B]

It's not who's been the most successful, it's who's the most over-rated. And yep I stand by my opinion. That car is flattering Vettel right now. I'd like to see him in a situation where he has to really fight for victories and podiums and maybe then I'll believe the hype.

Hmmm, I wonder why he's beating - nay, thrashing - his team mate in a car which, surely by your logic, also flatters Webber.

Vettel over-rated. I've heard everything now. :laugh:

[CNR]

well i voted for so called quick nick
Urban Dictionary: overrated (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=overrated)
overrated

A word which recently has been used liberally as a way of discrediting something without having to give a proper justification, most often when someone finds they have a disliking for a popular phenomenom and is resentful of those who embrace it. Often used by anti-trendies.

(Something loved by many) is completely overrated.

[F1boat]

It's not who's been the most successful, it's who's the most over-rated. And yep I stand by my opinion. That car is flattering Vettel right now. I'd like to see him in a situation where he has to really fight for victories and podiums and maybe then I'll believe the hype.


Spain was a tough win, actually, very tough.

[steveaki13]

It's not who's been the most successful, it's who's the most over-rated. And yep I stand by my opinion. That car is flattering Vettel right now. I'd like to see him in a situation where he has to really fight for victories and podiums and maybe then I'll believe the hype.



How about securing pole and then winning at the legendry Monza in the wet in a Toro Rosso. A car that was outside the top 10 more often than not.

[steveaki13]

Also Vettel this year has won in Spain under alot of pressure and in Monaco where despite SC held on under pressure and on very old tyres.

I know more often than not he has won from pole, but you can't blame him for that. While I don't assume he is one of the absolute greats yet, he clearly is a real talent He has one most races, and been way ahead of Mark, who himself is no slouch.

[nigelred5]

It's not who's been the most successful, it's who's the most over-rated. And yep I stand by my opinion. That car is flattering Vettel right now. I'd like to see him in a situation where he has to really fight for victories and podiums and maybe then I'll believe the hype.

I'll admit the Hamilton thing is partly due to me being an Alonso fan but I still believe what I said earlier, there's always an excuse when Hamilton does poorly

Winning a race at Monza, in the rain, in a Toro Rosso tells me he is far from overrated. Even having a fortuitus pit strategy, The guy has given two teams their first wins and given Red Bull it's first drivers championship. I rate him right where he is, a VERY good, still very young driver in a very fast car. even when given the chance, Weber has choked as often as not in the same car.

[pino]

I love the fact all the unproven drivers on the list have the least votes and all the grand prix winners and world Champions are pulling in the raised hands lol.

Maybe I should change poll title into " Who are the drivers you dislike most ? " :p :

[Mia 01]

A good driver still needs to have respect for his competitiors off and on track. Drivers who spill comments like; Kimi lack balls, are at the bottom of most peoples lists.

[Mia 01]

Which driver said that Mia?

Memory is a strange thing.

[Mia 01]

It serves you well henner as it does to your fav driver.

[Mia 01]

Lewis hamilton has never said Kimi lacked balls, and he wouldn't be so petty to a driver he has never had a problem with. Every driver in the paddock knew how good Kimi was and he had alot of respect. Kimi is also one of my favourite drivers and I supported him throughout his time at McLaren. You have made up that statement and I challenge you to back it up!! I have reported you for trolling. :wave:

Thanks. Report you, never.

[Mia 01]

No quotes/links/sources to back up your claim then?

Most forumers have been following the sport for a long time, they know.

[Koz]

Indeed, Mia is correct on this one. Hamilton did say something similar...

[ioan]

No quotes/links/sources to back up your claim then?

What's your problem? Can't remember what big balls Lewy said a few seasons ago?! You're the troll this time.

[SGWilko]

What's your problem? Can't remember what big balls Lewy said a few seasons ago?! You're the troll this time.

Yet, still no evidence to back this one up? That's the commode calling the bath stinky.....

[SGWilko]

Indeed, Mia is correct on this one. Hamilton did say something similar...

Any danger of elaborating?

[Mark]

Can't anybody use google? It took me less than 10 seconds to find the quote.

[i_max2k2]

Got this from another forum, cant open it at work, but this is the interview where he said so..

autosport.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70475)


But he (referring to Kimi) was braking much earlier than you?

LH: Well, that's his driving, that's all. That is how he drives. If you don't have the balls to brake late then that is your problem! At the end of the day, in those situations it is the driver who can feel the grip more and put the car more on the edge. And I know I am great in those conditions. I felt the grip more than him, I knew where to place my car and I did place it in different positions to him and I found the grip.

How ironic to say that for a driver who has been doing that succesfully for a lot more time than he did. As Kimi explained in another interview when you are first and it starts raining, you don't know how much grip there is. By being second you have the luxury to look at the guy in front of you and estimate if there is more or less grip.

Regarding Massa too..

Q. You say you are confident for the coming races, but how much is the shadow of Massa a concern for you?

LH: Not really. I think Massa he is on the back foot and he is the one that has to work damn hard to keep up with me. We do have a close race, a close battle, but I feel I am in a very strong position.

[SGWilko]

Can't anybody use google? It took me less than 10 seconds to find the quote.

I am sure Google will claim it only took 0.0002 nanoseconds.

At least the quote puts it into perspective.

[pino]

Come on guys, let's quit personal comments/insults...thanks :)

[steveaki13]

Alot of recent threads appear to decend into personal and pointless rants, rather than any interesting or intriging debate.

Its a shame.

[steveaki13]

Anyway my bid for Over rated driver is:

Sutil.

He really hasn't done an overally good job in 5 years at Force India. He drove those couple of brilliant wet races, but too often threw it away or got unlucky.

He has not really impressed me this season and feel his career in F1 is going nowhere slowly or fast.

[Mia 01]

Thanks to everyone, and, still I dont like drivers who ridicilour his competitiors on or off track.

Seb will win, all and over all as long as Adrian is there.

[52Paddy]

But my vote at present would go towards Buemi. Three seasons and no real excitement from this guy. Alguersuari may be running through a spell where he is underperforming in comparison, but I would drop Buemi over him in a heartbeat. I think there is more to come from Jaime, and he certainly gave Schuey a run for his money in his first race back. :)

Agree.

[ioan]

Can't anybody use google? It took me less than 10 seconds to find the quote.

The difference being that SGWilko seems set to troll around, or maybe he couldn't recognize a slap even when he receives one.

[ioan]

Alot of recent threads appear to decend into personal and pointless rants, rather than any interesting or intriging debate.

Its a shame.

Interestingly it's mostly due to oversensitive Lewis fans, I wonder why is that.

[steveaki13]

Interestingly it's mostly due to oversensitive Lewis fans, I wonder why is that.

Nothing positive to defend him with. :D

( I would like to point out the fact that this comment is in jest. I like all drivers)

[Big Ben]

Vettel, not because he's not very good but because he's not THAT good. Just noticed on autosport.com the cover of the magazine. It says "can someone stop this man" or something to that effect. soon enough people will say he can win in a STR... oh, wait a minute... he did that, didn't he? well, the point is that it would be more correct to say "can someone stop this car?"... todt is having a go... let's see if he can.

[Retro Formula 1]

Vettel, not because he's not very good but because he's not THAT good. Just noticed on autosport.com the cover of the magazine. It says "can someone stop this man" or something to that effect. soon enough people will say he can win in a STR... oh, wait a minute... he did that, didn't he? well, the point is that it would be more correct to say "can someone stop this car?"... todt is having a go... let's see if he can.

That is a very good point.

Just how good is Seb? I suggest he is probably in the top 3 out there but is he an Alonso or Hamilton? He does seem to have a bit of a glass jaw when pressured but then again, Hamilton and Alonso make some silly mistakes when they over push a un-competitive car. However, they also have the ability to get results that the car doesn't warrant and I don't really get that feeling about Seb.

[555-04Q2]

Well at least The Shoe is leading something this year :p :

[Retro Formula 1]

Well at least The Shoe is leading something this year :p :

And he's got his old mate Massa riding shotgun. Just like the old days :D

[555-04Q2]

:laugh:

[angrycat32]

Lewis Hamilton is by far the most overrated driver.

[The Black Knight]

That is a very good point.

Just how good is Seb? I suggest he is probably in the top 3 out there but is he an Alonso or Hamilton? He does seem to have a bit of a glass jaw when pressured but then again, Hamilton and Alonso make some silly mistakes when they over push a un-competitive car. However, they also have the ability to get results that the car doesn't warrant and I don't really get that feeling about Seb.

Seab is only 24 and has shown maturity and speed well beyond his years. He still has to prove he can do it in an uncompetitive car. I know he did it once in Torro Rosso but I really need to see more than a once off. We'll really see what he is made of then if he moves to a car that isn't as quick as his current one sometime. He is definitely in the top three on raw talent with Hamilton and Alonso but has had the car to win the titles. If Hamilton had Seb's car over the last two years, I have no doubt that there's be a front page picture of Hamilton with the same caption as "Can anyone stop this man?". The press are ficlke just like so many members of this forum. It's all about selling papers in the end for the press. Here, for trolls, it's about attention seeking. We've seen similar headlines in the past about Alonso, Hamilton and Schumacher.

Someone said above that Lewis Hamilton is completely overrated. This is completely inaccurate. Drivers like him don't get rated as they do for no reason. You have to earn the privilege to be regarded as one of the best and Hamilton did that over his first 4 years on the sport. This year has been a bad one but he has proven he is resilient and determined to bounce back. He has all the qualities to become one of the all time F1 greats. Whether he'll do that is something we'll find out in time.

[Knock-on]

Like it BK. Totally agree.

When Seb gets a car that he has to battle with like the Mac this year, then we will see his mettle a bit more.

Time will tell but until then, you must say he's doing a great job :)

[AndyL]

Seab is only 24 and has shown maturity and speed well beyond his years. He still has to prove he can do it in an uncompetitive car. I know he did it once in Torro Rosso but I really need to see more than a once off.

On James Allen's blog someone raised the question of which drivers had won races in cars outside the top 4 in performance. The answers that were identified from recent years were Vettel, Raikkonen, Fisichella and Panis. Two who went on to become champions and two who didn't. So I'd agree that a single win in a midfield car isn't sufficient supporting evidence.

[jens]

In the beginning of the season people were asking whether Vettel really is on the level of Hamilton and Alonso. Now the question should more likely be "is Hamilton on the level of Vettel and Alonso?"

Regarding the overrating thing I have to say there is a possibility Kobayashi turns out to be overrated. I have read on countless occasions during 2011 that not only would he deserve a drive in a top team, but would also give a run for SV/LH/FA's money.

[Knock-on]

Regarding the overrating thing I have to say there is a possibility Kobayashi turns out to be overrated. I have read on countless occasions during 2011 that not only would he deserve a drive in a top team, but would also give a run for SV/LH/FA's money.

Really? I haven't seen that and I must admit, I have a soft spot for Koby.

[52Paddy]

Regarding the overrating thing I have to say there is a possibility Kobayashi turns out to be overrated. I have read on countless occasions during 2011 that not only would he deserve a drive in a top team, but would also give a run for SV/LH/FA's money.

I still believe Kobayashi has more in store for us. Hopefully Sauber can develop a car to mix it at the front end of the mid-field (Force India, Renault and perhaps even Mercedes) at every race.

[The Black Knight]

Like it BK. Totally agree.

When Seb gets a car that he has to battle with like the Mac this year, then we will see his mettle a bit more.

Time will tell but until then, you must say he's doing a great job :)
Absolutely. He has been faultless but I'm of the opinoin that Alonso has been the best driver on the grid this year. I have lost count of how many times I've given him driver of the race this year. When you compare what he has done to his teammate they are world's apart and he really outdrove that Ferrari over the course of the season.

[The Black Knight]

On James Allen's blog someone raised the question of which drivers had won races in cars outside the top 4 in performance. The answers that were identified from recent years were Vettel, Raikkonen, Fisichella and Panis. Two who went on to become champions and two who didn't. So I'd agree that a single win in a midfield car isn't sufficient supporting evidence.

How does Raikkonen fit in that list?

Indeed. Panis win was 96 Monaco if memory serves me?

Here is Flavio's opinion of the top three men in F1 at the moment:

Vettel 'not the best' - Flavio Briatore | Red Bull | Formula 1 news, live F1 | ESPN F1 (http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport/story/61349.html)

For me, I personally believe that with a teammate like Vettel or Alonso in equal machinery that it would push Hamilton to find limits he probably only found in 2007. Just look at how he responded and dealth with Alonso that year. I personally think he'd be very level on poles over a season but would win more races. This is just my opinion and very much open to debate.

[Knock-on]

Don't agree about Alonso. I think the Ferrari was on par with the McLaren for much of the year but the McLaren drivers have done a better job. There are 2 of them going hammer and tongs to get results whereas Alonso is in a team of one, as he wants it, with a team mate that has long ago given up, whose only use in the team is to draft Alonso down the straight for qualifying or to destroy rivals races and just wants to blame everyone else.

No wonder Alonso is walking it in the team mate race.

I think that Button has done the best job this year when everything is taken into account although you can't take anything away from Seb who has been sublime.

[AndyL]

How does Raikkonen fit in that list?

Raikkonen's there by virtue of winning at Spa in '04, McLaren coming 5th in the constructors' championship that year.

[555-04Q2]

Like it BK. Totally agree.

When Seb gets a car that he has to battle with like the Mac this year, then we will see his mettle a bit more.

Time will tell but until then, you must say he's doing a great job :)

I think he did a fantastic job last year under those kind of circumstances. We forget, the guy was only 23 years old yet he fought off a double world champion in Alonso, 2 world champions in Button & Hamilton as well as a hard charging Webber to win the 2010 WDC.

Seb has been quite amazing the last 2 years.

[The Black Knight]

I think he did a fantastic job last year under those kind of circumstances. We forget, the guy was only 23 years old yet he fought off a double world champion in Alonso, 2 world champions in Button & Hamilton as well as a hard charging Webber to win the 2010 WDC.

Seb has been quite amazing the last 2 years.

Under what circumstances? He had the best car last year.

[The Black Knight]

Don't agree about Alonso. I think the Ferrari was on par with the McLaren for much of the year but the McLaren drivers have done a better job. There are 2 of them going hammer and tongs to get results whereas Alonso is in a team of one, as he wants it, with a team mate that has long ago given up, whose only use in the team is to draft Alonso down the straight for qualifying or to destroy rivals races and just wants to blame everyone else.

No wonder Alonso is walking it in the team mate race.

I think that Button has done the best job this year when everything is taken into account although you can't take anything away from Seb who has been sublime.

Those are fair enough points. Alonso still edges it for me. To be running 3rd in the championship only 8 points behind Button with a car that is clearly not as quick as his is more than impressive. He, along with Seb, has made the most of every opportunity available to him and I think that he deserves the mantle of driver of the year... so far that is! :)

[Dave B]

...whereas Alonso is in a team of one, as he wants it, with a team mate that has long ago given up, whose only use in the team is to draft Alonso down the straight for qualifying or to destroy rivals races and just wants to blame everyone else.

It's so sad to see what's become of Massa, and it simply highlights what a grand job Hamilton did in his debut year against a driver who has a habit of crushing his team-mates' spirits.

[Bezza]

I think Massa has passed his peak, partly because of being battered by Alonso and I'm sure his accident in 2009 cannot have helped.

He really should have just gone against team orders in Germany 2010 and took the win he deserved, as he has been woeful ever since and will be lucky to ever win another race.

Hamilton is still a great driver, but is going through a really poor run of form. He seems to lack confidence in himself at the moment. His accidents are clumsy. I think he will regain this but it will probably take a good pre-season to sort it out, and probably needs more off-track focus as well.

Webber has been really poor this season. He doesn't seem outwardly bothered by being trounced by Vettel, which angers me most, whilst in 2010 he was fired up to beat him until he bottled it towards the end of the season.

[555-04Q2]

Under what circumstances? He had the best car last year.

Being only 23 years old and having multiple WDC chasing him for the title. Best car or not, impressive for a 23 year old.

What were you doing at 23?

[The Black Knight]

Being only 23 years old and having multiple WDC chasing him for the title. Best car or not, impressive for a 23 year old.

What were you doing at 23?

None of your business :D

[555-04Q2]

:laugh:

[i_max2k2]

With 91 wins, 7 wdc's, schumacher is clearly overrated. :rolleyes:

And I do agree, we'll really find out about Seb when he is in an average car, until then I'd reserve my judgement.

[jens]

I'm not sure, why does a top driver necessarily need to be in average cars to "prove" anything. What counts in this business, is what you deliver at the very top. We have two contrasting examples: Fisichella, who used to be impressive in bad cars, but not so impressive in the very best ones. And Button, who impresses in a very good car, but has struggled in bad ones. Who is rated higher now?

I can understand that you would like Vettel to have equal cars to Hamilton and Alonso to have a close fight for the WDC. But average car would enable him to finish in 5ths and 6ths and I'm not sure, what is this supposed to show. Only for cynics to say that "oh I told you he won only because of the best car." We already saw Seb in 2007-08 in a pretty average car. Getting the most out of it after initial adaption period. If currently Vettel wins and Webber finishes for instance 3rd, then if the car was suddenly average, Vettel would be, say, 5th and Webber, say, 7th. So what would be the big deal? Would someone say "now this 5th place in an average car finally proves that Seb is an all-time great!"?!?! Well, I'd like to see that...

Did 2009 prove anything about Alonso you didn't know before, when he was driving an uncompetitive car? Hamilton in 2009 and Schumacher in 2005 were also pretty much nowhere on circuits, where the car didn't deliver. Häkkinen was driving average cars for many years before reaching wins. Did this add anything to their legacy? No, their greatness is based on their fights for top awards.


With 91 wins, 7 wdc's, schumacher is clearly overrated. :rolleyes:

And I do agree, we'll really find out about Seb when he is in an average car, until then I'd reserve my judgement.

First you mention someone's impressive statistics and then you mention the need for average cars. Well, Vettel has an amazing achievement of 27 pole positions already. If he has a bad car suddenly and is unable to score any more poles, does it take anything away from his poles and 2 WDC's? :D Alonso hasn't added any more titles (yet) to his two early-career triumphs, but I haven't see his reputation deteriorating.

[52Paddy]

Good post jens.

[i_max2k2]

I'm not sure, why does a top driver necessarily need to be in average cars to "prove" anything. What counts in this business, is what you deliver at the very top. We have two contrasting examples: Fisichella, who used to be impressive in bad cars, but not so impressive in the very best ones. And Button, who impresses in a very good car, but has struggled in bad ones. Who is rated higher now?

I can understand that you would like Vettel to have equal cars to Hamilton and Alonso to have a close fight for the WDC. But average car would enable him to finish in 5ths and 6ths and I'm not sure, what is this supposed to show. Only for cynics to say that "oh I told you he won only because of the best car." We already saw Seb in 2007-08 in a pretty average car. Getting the most out of it after initial adaption period. If currently Vettel wins and Webber finishes for instance 3rd, then if the car was suddenly average, Vettel would be, say, 5th and Webber, say, 7th. So what would be the big deal? Would someone say "now this 5th place in an average car finally proves that Seb is an all-time great!"?!?! Well, I'd like to see that...

Did 2009 prove anything about Alonso you didn't know before, when he was driving an uncompetitive car? Hamilton in 2009 and Schumacher in 2005 were also pretty much nowhere on circuits, where the car didn't deliver. Häkkinen was driving average cars for many years before reaching wins. Did this add anything to their legacy? No, their greatness is based on their fights for top awards.



First you mention someone's impressive statistics and then you mention the need for average cars. Well, Vettel has an amazing achievement of 27 pole positions already. If he has a bad car suddenly and is unable to score any more poles, does it take anything away from his poles and 2 WDC's? :D Alonso hasn't added any more titles (yet) to his two early-career triumphs, but I haven't see his reputation deteriorating.


How about jacques villeneuve & Hill, won in top cars, and not so great in average cars. I thought Michael was a proven driver in an fast car or not so fast car either.

[jens]

How about jacques villeneuve & Hill, won in top cars, and not so great in average cars. I thought Michael was a proven driver in an fast car or not so fast car either.

About average cars: Hill also had a race win in Jordan and "almost-a-race-win" in Arrows.

As for Villeneuve, I personally have to say that he was very impressive in BARs in 1999-2000. I would say he was performing better than he did at Williams - as we remember, his 1997 season was a bit inconsistent and filled with mistakes. Only in later BAR seasons he started fizzling away a bit.

[Mia 01]

Somehow, for this race it was Nico. Is he the next Nick Heidfield?

[i_max2k2]

About average cars: Hill also had a race win in Jordan and "almost-a-race-win" in Arrows.

As for Villeneuve, I personally have to say that he was very impressive in BARs in 1999-2000. I would say he was performing better than he did at Williams - as we remember, his 1997 season was a bit inconsistent and filled with mistakes. Only in later BAR seasons he started fizzling away a bit.

No disagreements, but the fact that MS won 91 races is a bit of testament that he probably dint win all of them when the car was as fast as the current Red Bull, that was what I was inferring with his statistics.

[52Paddy]

Look at Seb today. Straight into the lead when the lights went out. Safety car ruined the gap. Floored it when the SC went in, opened up another gap, and wasn't seen. In contrast, a train of Hamilton, Webber, Button and Alonso followed him home. I just don't know how you can say he is over-rated. He was good in the Toro Rosso too remember.

[The Black Knight]

I'm not sure, why does a top driver necessarily need to be in average cars to "prove" anything. What counts in this business, is what you deliver at the very top. We have two contrasting examples: Fisichella, who used to be impressive in bad cars, but not so impressive in the very best ones. And Button, who impresses in a very good car, but has struggled in bad ones. Who is rated higher now?
I can understand that you would like Vettel to have equal cars to Hamilton and Alonso to have a close fight for the WDC. But average car would enable him to finish in 5ths and 6ths and I'm not sure, what is this supposed to show. Only for cynics to say that "oh I told you he won only because of the best car." We already saw Seb in 2007-08 in a pretty average car. Getting the most out of it after initial adaption period. If currently Vettel wins and Webber finishes for instance 3rd, then if the car was suddenly average, Vettel would be, say, 5th and Webber, say, 7th. So what would be the big deal? Would someone say "now this 5th place in an average car finally proves that Seb is an all-time great!"?!?! Well, I'd like to see that...
Did 2009 prove anything about Alonso you didn't know before, when he was driving an uncompetitive car? Hamilton in 2009 and Schumacher in 2005 were also pretty much nowhere on circuits, where the car didn't deliver. Häkkinen was driving average cars for many years before reaching wins. Did this add anything to their legacy? No, their greatness is based on their fights for top awards.

First you mention someone's impressive statistics and then you mention the need for average cars. Well, Vettel has an amazing achievement of 27 pole positions already. If he has a bad car suddenly and is unable to score any more poles, does it take anything away from his poles and 2 WDC's? :D Alonso hasn't added any more titles (yet) to his two early-career triumphs, but I haven't see his reputation deteriorating.
The reason is that a test of a truly great driver comes when he can win races in a car that isn't the quickest on the grid. Schumacher did it, Senna did it. All the truly great drivers could drag a car up that was second or third on the grid and get it to victory and they could do it more than once. They did it repeatedly.
If Vettel or any other driver on the current wants to be classed as an all time great then they too need to show their ability to out perform an underperforming car because that is what separates the brilliant drivers from the truly great ones.

The fact is that over half of the grid would probably have been able to win this years title in Seb's car. That is not to take away from his achievement, he did as good a job as anyone could have done and probably better but could he have dragged an underperforming car to a few race wins like Schumacehr did in 96? I'm not convinced of that. I'm convinced of his out and out speed in a great car but the greats could do it in the second or third best car on the grid as well. I want to see that from Vettel to know if he truly he walks with them.

[52Paddy]

The fact is that over half of the grid would probably have been able to win this years title in Seb's car. That is not to take away from his achievement, he did as good a job as anyone could have done and probably better but could he have dragged an underperforming car to a few race wins like Schumacehr did in 96? I'm not convinced of that. I'm convinced of his out and out speed in a great car but the greats could do it in the second or third best car on the grid as well. I want to see that from Vettel to know if he truly he walks with them.

Does his performance in the 2008 Toro Rosso not convince you? Even his performances this year in the "best car on the grid" have been, not just impressive, but devastating. He's been able to build huge gaps even when they've been diminished by a safety car, for example. He's shown that he can overtake and defend. I guess the only thing I've yet to see is an impressive drive through the field.

[The Black Knight]

Does his performance in the 2008 Toro Rosso not convince you? Even his performances this year in the "best car on the grid" have been, not just impressive, but devastating. He's been able to build huge gaps even when they've been diminished by a safety car, for example. He's shown that he can overtake and defend. I guess the only thing I've yet to see is an impressive drive through the field.

See the part I bolded in my previous post for an answer to that.

I take a longtime to be convinced of any drivers greatness. Seb isn't there yet. It took Schumacher a long time to convince me as well. It doesn't happen because of one great season.

[555-04Q2]

I love the way the greatest F1 driver of all time and the most successful 24 year old of all time are the two most over rated drivers listed :p :

Bunch of twats :laugh:

[i_max2k2]

I love the way the greatest F1 driver of all time and the most successful 24 year old of all time are the two most over rated drivers listed :p :

Bunch of twats :laugh:

lol +1

[SGWilko]

Bunch of twats :laugh:

Is that slang for a brothel?

[Mia 01]

The most overrated for now is Nico, (and Robert up til now, hope he recower)

[AndyL]

The results of this poll don't surprise me at all. Why are guys like Glock and Liuzzi at the bottom of the poll? No-one really sees them as highly rated. The drivers most likely to be considered over-rated are the ones who are highly rated. Even a genuinely excellent driver can still be over-rated, if they're hyped more than some other equally excellent driver.

[555-04Q2]

Thats why this poll is a load of rubbish. The fact that Schuey, Alonso, Hamilton, Button and Seb are the most overated on this thread yet are the drivers who have been winning for the past god knows how long is testiment to the theory.. ;) :)

PS: Out of interest who did you vote for 555-04Q2? lol

Can't remember :( I think it was either Webber or Button?

[555-04Q2]

Is that slang for a brothel?

Slang for another word I am definetely not allowed to post on this family forum, but it begins with P.

[CaptainRaiden]

I love the way the greatest F1 driver of all time

Correction: The most "successful" driver of all time. Numbers alone do not make someone the greatest.

[i_max2k2]

Correction: The most "successful" driver of all time. Numbers alone do not make someone the greatest.

quite right, thats why he said Greatest! :)

[i_max2k2]

Quite right, Schumacher will possibly always be the most successfull, and dare I say the 'best' in terms of results, but one thing he'll never be in my eyes is the 'greatest'. That word carries with it passion, style, and personality along with it of course success on track. Drivers like Clark, Fangio, and Senna showed visible passion for their profession which I think Schumacher hid whilst being uber corporate during his Ferrari years. Schumacher is one of the 'greats' but he isn't the greatest IMO regardless of how many WDC's and races wins are quoted by his fans. People interpret the word 'greatest' in many ways and its always going to be somethig of personal preference. :)

Indeed, greatness cant be measured, weather your a fan of Senna or Clark or Schumacher, its something that a fan will relate to different things, if you think he was not passionate about the sport for over 16yrs, its your opinion, just like mine which thinks he is the very best :)

[ioan]

Indeed, greatness cant be measured, weather your a fan of Senna or Clark or Schumacher, its something that a fan will relate to different things, if you think he was not passionate about the sport for over 16yrs, its your opinion, just like mine which thinks he is the very best :)

You're losing your time with someone who thinks Hamilton is the greatest driver ever and who also despises MS.
Still great memories and results will stand forever, above all subjective rubbish some will continue to spew. :D

[henners88]

You're losing your time with someone who thinks Hamilton is the greatest driver ever and who also despises MS.
Still great memories and results will stand forever, above all subjective rubbish some will continue to spew. :D
I was complimentary of Schumacher in my posts and no I do not think Hamilton is the greatest ever thank you very much. Rather lame ioan.. :down:

[pino]

Let's keep childish comments off here thank you !

[angrycat32]

Don't agree about Alonso. I think the Ferrari was on par with the McLaren for much of the year but the McLaren drivers have done a better job. There are 2 of them going hammer and tongs to get results whereas Alonso is in a team of one, as he wants it, with a team mate that has long ago given up, whose only use in the team is to draft Alonso down the straight for qualifying or to destroy rivals races and just wants to blame everyone else.

No wonder Alonso is walking it in the team mate race.

I think that Button has done the best job this year when everything is taken into account although you can't take anything away from Seb who has been sublime.

McLaren is the 2nd best car the last 2 years, especialy this year. Definitely superior to Ferrari at the moment. Hamilton also has not done a better job than Alonso this year. Alonso is ahead in points and has been virtually the whole year, inspite of his slower car.

[angrycat32]

In the beginning of the season people were asking whether Vettel really is on the level of Hamilton and Alonso. Now the question should more likely be "is Hamilton on the level of Vettel and Alonso?"

Regarding the overrating thing I have to say there is a possibility Kobayashi turns out to be overrated. I have read on countless occasions during 2011 that not only would he deserve a drive in a top team, but would also give a run for SV/LH/FA's money.

I agree with all you said. Hamilton is not really on the level of Vettel or Alonso as a driver. That is becoming increasingly clear. Maybe in speed he is, but definitely not in consistency or race intelligence.

Kobayashi is definitely overrated too. He deserves a better driver maybe but he does not neccessarily deserve to drive a top car, and even if he did he would be a Webber (this years version, not last year) at very best.

One driver who was underrated is Kubica. He definitely deserved a top car before his accident.

[Mark]

But it's a perfectly reasonable point of view. You can only go from what you see. Button has shaded him this year, if not on speed then on racecraft.

[Mark]

He probably put it 'somewhere safe' and forgot. That's what happens to me.

[BDunnell]

Quite, we all have our favourites and this will determine how we view certain drivers and what they have achieved. I was lucky enough to catch the entire Schumacher period and saw him at his very best, so feel I am able to form my opinions based on experience. Just to clarify though I didn't say he wasn't passionate about about the sport, that much is obvious as we was quite clearly, I just preferred the approach of other greats who quite visibly expressed their passion. :)

Quite telling to me is the fact that Schumacher on joining Ferrari had little or no idea of the team's historical record in F1. I do not believe that anyone can be considered truly passionate about motor racing, or indeed any other job, without some form of historical understanding or perspective.

[BDunnell]

In James Allens book 'The Edge of Greatness" it was also stated that Schumacher didn't understand the passion of the tifosi until his 3rd season with the team, when he felt they warmed to him. He took alot of convincing from Weber to join, with his motivation at the time to join Williams as he thought they were the team of the future. I think Ross Brawn had alot to do with his final decision to sign at Maranello. He took alot of flack for not bringing them a WDC and resented the negative press he got up until his first Ferrari title in 2000. I think Schumacher's passion came purely from winning and he used to win at all costs and didn't care what the perception of him was for most of his career.

All of which, when put like that, is fair enough.

[555-04Q2]

quite right, thats why he said Greatest! :)

:up:

[CaptainRaiden]

quite right, thats why he said Greatest! :)

Being shown the way by Barbie for the last two years somehow doesn't go with the "greatest" theory. :)

[555-04Q2]

Being shown the way by Barbie for the last two years somehow doesn't go with the "greatest" theory. :)

One thing that can never be erased.....is the past. His achievements as a young, competitive driver from 1991 - 2006 remains in the record of world history as long as mankind is around :)

[Mia 01]

One thing that can never be erased.....is the past. His achievements as a young, competitive driver from 1991 - 2006 remains in the record of world history as long as mankind is around :)

This. His achievements can not be undone.

[jens]

I find it funny that Sutil has 13 votes, while di Resta has 1. It should be the other way around. Sutil is quietly doing a fine job and no-one is really hyping him, while di Resta the "Vettel beater in Euro F3" certainly doesn't lack any hype. Whether it is going to materialize or not, remains to be seen.

Rosberg is an interesting one. He is considered 'overrated', but I wouldn't totally write him off. He has had his ups and downs and he could be another "Button". I mean there were times, when Button was shaded by a vastly experienced driver of Barrichello and in 2008 many people surely were putting the Englishman in the 'overrated' category. Now Rosberg against another 'oldie' Schumi has his fluctuations too and doesn't look impressive at times. But he can bounce back.

[i_max2k2]

Being shown the way by Barbie for the last two years somehow doesn't go with the "greatest" theory. :)

We'll see how Kimi does after he comes back, and how lewis is doing after 20yrs, to determine how Michael is doing now.

[i_max2k2]

Very true. Would he have won all those titles if the grid back then was as strong as it is today is also a question that will be raised as long as mankind is around. :)

How things are right now, it really matters who has the best car or the best package, I'm sure if Schumacher was not as strong (as a drive i.e.) as he was back then we might have thought of DC, Hill, and hikkinen in the same way we think of Button, Hamilton and Alonso. Its really a matter of perspective. And he gave a taste of how good he still is, in Canada, Monza and Spa.

[CaptainRaiden]

We'll see how Kimi does after he comes back, and how lewis is doing after 20yrs, to determine how Michael is doing now.

Kimi's return should really be interesting. However, I don't think Lewis would be chasing numbers 20 years later or wasting a seat and resources of some British company who signed him on in the name of national pride...

[CaptainRaiden]

How things are right now, it really matters who has the best car or the best package, I'm sure if Schumacher was not as strong (as a drive i.e.) as he was back then we might have thought of DC, Hill, and hikkinen in the same way we think of Button, Hamilton and Alonso. Its really a matter of perspective. And he gave a taste of how good he still is, in Canada, Monza and Spa.

DC was never a contender, only when Mika lost his passion. And on equal terms, Hakkinen was very much a match for Michael. It took Ferrari a whole lot of testing and new parts for Michael to finally take that crown in 2000, for ex. the 049b engine Monza 2000 onwards, and the fact that Bridgestone favored Ferrari mid season, the reason why so many teams jumped to Michelin when they entered the sport. Schumacher's WDC in 1994 is clouded by his "accident" with Hill, and the WDC in 1995 also tainted because of Benetton's mysterious traction control. 2001, 2002 and 2004 championships were won in clearly the best car in the field, which any of the top tier drivers now could do just as easily.

Also, you first say Michael is not as strong as he was back then, but he showed how good he still is at those 3 races this year? That means in your opinion he's still good? And he's been consistently outqualified and outraced by Nico, so then in equal machinery and equal footing, NR is a better driver than the "greatest" driver ever?

Besides age is not a valid excuse anymore. Rubens is only 3 years younger, and he did absolutely fine against Button in 2009, and is doing so now too against a much younger Maldonado. I've seen 45+ year old combat sport veterans outstrike and outlast much younger opponents. Agreed they don't have to endure g-forces, but people who have been athletes all their life, have a much longer prime period, and their reflexes are still very strong for a very long time.

The second excuse is time away from sport. Well, he has had two winter testing periods and almost two seasons under his belt now, and I'm sure many, many hours in the simulator. When is he gonna start beating Nico Rosberg decisively and consistently? He's just about only matching him now. Does he need half a decade to get used to racing again??

[jens]

I'm not sure Häkkinen was exactly a match to Schumacher as a complete package. For instance he was inferior in wet conditions.

[Kevincal]

vettel is most overrated, simply look at 2010 him and mark were equal, then in 2011 red bull screwed over mark with team orders and mysterious car problems every race.

[i_max2k2]

Kimi's return should really be interesting. However, I don't think Lewis would be chasing numbers 20 years later or wasting a seat and resources of some British company who signed him on in the name of national pride...

Really? wasting a seat? whom do you think will bring what Michael brings to Mercedes, they signed him so that they also can make money, F1 is not charity, you really missed the point, I dont know a lot of drivers who drove in their 40's with people half their age and gave them a fight. I dont think Lewis will be as good as he is right now in 20 years, or even as good as how Schumi is right now.


DC was never a contender, only when Mika lost his passion. And on equal terms, Hakkinen was very much a match for Michael. It took Ferrari a whole lot of testing and new parts for Michael to finally take that crown in 2000, for ex. the 049b engine Monza 2000 onwards, and the fact that Bridgestone favored Ferrari mid season, the reason why so many teams jumped to Michelin when they entered the sport.


If it was so easy to test and put parts together why was rest of the grid not doing it? Why were the Mclarens not able to achieve the same results, clearly Michael had a better understanding of the car and the skill to do it.



Schumacher's WDC in 1994 is clouded by his "accident" with Hill, and the WDC in 1995 also tainted because of Benetton's mysterious traction control. 2001, 2002 and 2004 championships were won in clearly the best car in the field, which any of the top tier drivers now could do just as easily.

Right except for that one race he was pathetic for the rest of 1994 right? If you have more information about the mysterious tc, why dont you enlighten us as well? The same can be said for Flexible wings, brawn diffuser, and so on, clearly engineers find loop holes and exploit them, Michael won the championships fair and square just like Button did, Seb and all others, I can always build up excuses about different years, something or another that one car had one did not.



Also, you first say Michael is not as strong as he was back then, but he showed how good he still is at those 3 races this year? That means in your opinion he's still good? And he's been consistently outqualified and outraced by Nico, so then in equal machinery and equal footing, NR is a better driver than the "greatest" driver ever?

As I see the points table this year I dont see him being "consistently outqualified and outraced by Nico" do you want me to link to the website? He is almost at par on points with more dnf's, and my point is even at 42 he can still do what he did at Canada, Spa and Monza. And of course if points is all to go by how many times was he "consistently outqualified and outraced" in the past 16yrs before this?



Besides age is not a valid excuse anymore. Rubens is only 3 years younger, and he did absolutely fine against Button in 2009, and is doing so now too against a much younger Maldonado. I've seen 45+ year old combat sport veterans outstrike and outlast much younger opponents. Agreed they don't have to endure g-forces, but people who have been athletes all their life, have a much longer prime period, and their reflexes are still very strong for a very long time.
And how many drivers in their 40's are in F1? Rubens was 3 years younger and in very competitive machinery, literally the same as Michael in the ferrari days, everyone knows how he did there (wasn't bad, but couldnt match Michael). Its more of a if question, if Michael was in that brawn with button, I doubt button would have won the championship the same if he was in Red Bull, he would have given seb a run for his money.



The second excuse is time away from sport. Well, he has had two winter testing periods and almost two seasons under his belt now, and I'm sure many, many hours in the simulator. When is he gonna start beating Nico Rosberg decisively and consistently? He's just about only matching him now. Does he need half a decade to get used to racing again??How about starting with the last 5 races? I dont think Nico has done the same as he did last year or even close. And I'm amazed to see your knowledge of Schumi's hours in the sim, could you give us an exact # and of nico's too?? Its very easy to sepculate whats happening and whats not happening in F1 with each driver, and by my reckoning he is doing pretty good in last few races and over all this year. Lets see how he does when he gets competitive machinery. When it was a bit close he held up lewis for half the race ;)

[Nem14]

Most overated drivers?

That would be a lot easier to determine if they were all driving the same car, but they aren't, so the question is basically unanswerable.

[CaptainRaiden]

Really? wasting a seat? whom do you think will bring what Michael brings to Mercedes, they signed him so that they also can make money, F1 is not charity, you really missed the point, I dont know a lot of drivers who drove in their 40's with people half their age and gave them a fight. I dont think Lewis will be as good as he is right now in 20 years, or even as good as how Schumi is right now.

Agreed that he brings in good sponsorship money, and it makes sense as the whole German Mercedes-Schumacher affair, but there are a lot more capable drivers out there who would be making good use of that seat.


If it was so easy to test and put parts together why was rest of the grid not doing it? Why were the Mclarens not able to achieve the same results, clearly Michael had a better understanding of the car and the skill to do it.

Because Ferrari clearly had the biggest budget of all in those years, and the years following, everybody knows this. Only Toyota had a bigger budget than Ferrari and Mclaren in 2008. And before you go on describing Michael as some brilliant car setup guy, the biggest piece of the pie goes to the actual engineers, designers and mechanics who worked at the factory.


Right except for that one race he was pathetic for the rest of 1994 right? If you have more information about the mysterious tc, why dont you enlighten us as well?

How old are you? Are you aware of the whole 1994 controversy at all? I would have asked you to Google it, but here, I'll help ya out: 1994 Formula One cheating controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Formula_One_cheating_controversy)

F1 News - Grandprix.com > GP Encyclopedia > People > Tad Czapski (http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/cref-czatad.html)

That Benetton still to this day is one of the most blatantly illegal cars to ever win a championship. There were allegations that Benetton were still using it in 1995. Also, search Youtube for Michael's "brilliant" starts during the Benetton years where he used to gobble up 3-4 cars within the first 50 meters. *cough* illegal launch control. *cough*


The same can be said for Flexible wings, brawn diffuser, and so on, clearly engineers find loop holes and exploit them, Michael won the championships fair and square just like Button did, Seb and all others, I can always build up excuses about different years, something or another that one car had one did not.

The flexible wings row was again an allegation at Ferrari during, surprise, surprise, Michael's time there. The double diffuser wasn't cheating, or else they'd have banned it. Instead, they allowed all the other teams to come up with their own interpretations. If the double diffuser was so advantageous, Toyota would have won as well, as them and Brawn were the only ones coming out of the box with it.

Also, Michael didn't win the 1994 championship "fair and square". Shamelessly punting out your championship rival at the last race of the season is not "fair and square". See Michael and Damon accident at Adelaide 1994. He was using illegal TC, and yet was about to get beaten by Damon Hill, and when he saw the championship slipping away, he just turned into Damon, breaking his suspension arm. I don't think any other driver in the modern era has been that blatantly ruthless, careless and cheating. Now, the way Button, Seb and Lewis have won their championship is what you call fair and square.

BTW he was disqualified twice during 1994. Also I don't think any other modern day F1 driver has been stripped off his place and stricken off the points table as humiliatingly as Michael was in 1997 for his again deliberate crash with Villenueve at Jerez.

Ferrari were disqualified at the end of 1999 as well for using illegal barge boards, and then FIA withdrew the disqualification and let them fight for the title at Suzuka.

Also in 2003, when Ferrari and your precious Schumi were getting beaten, they launched a protest against Michelin regarding tyre width, which BTW was the same since 2001. FIA banned those tyres mid-season, which allowed Michael and Ferrari to take the 2003 crown. These are the kinds of incidents that got FIA the infamous name, "Ferrari International Assiatance" FYI. Even the great Ross Brawn was struggling for answers.

asE7AA5_JdM


So, the 1994 title was won in a blatantly illegal car. Damon dropped the ball in 1995. 2001, 2002, 2004 titles won in clearly the best car in the field, 2003 title again shrouded in controversy, won by only two points over the newbie Kimi, and all this while his biggest competition being DC, Montoya and his little brother. :laugh: Overrated driver? Yes. His "greatness" is simply overamplified by his impressive stats, which either Alonso, Lewis, Seb or Webber would have achieved in those dominating Ferraris, as Kimi demonstrated in 2007 by winning the WDC.


As I see the points table this year I dont see him being "consistently outqualified and outraced by Nico" do you want me to link to the website? He is almost at par on points with more dnf's, and my point is even at 42 he can still do what he did at Canada, Spa and Monza. And of course if points is all to go by how many times was he "consistently outqualified and outraced" in the past 16yrs before this?

Nico has been having bad races this year, and has had a bit of bad luck as well, even though not more retirements. But he has consistently outqualified Michael for sure. It's 12-2 so far. Here, have a look: Nico Rosberg 2011 form guide | F1 Fanatic (http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/statistics/2011-f1-statistics/f1-2011-driver-form-guides/nico-rosberg-2011-form-guide/)
With better races, he can definitely outclass Michael, as he did last year.

And why wasn't Michael outraced and outqualified before? Are you aware of the history at all? Before Ferrari, crap teammates, Martin Brundle :laugh: , a retiring Ricardo Patrese, an injured JJ Lehto, Johhny Herbert. At Ferrari, two words, "lapdog contracts". Irvine and Barrichello signed for Ferrari knowing full well they were NOT allowed to race Michael, and if asked, will have to yield their place to him.

Rosberg is the first guy really to be a decent driver and with equal footing in the team, equal car performance, with no team orders, and you see the results. Please don't give the age excuse again, as I've already said in my earlier post, athletes even as old as 48 have done pretty well in other sports.


And how many drivers in their 40's are in F1? Rubens was 3 years younger and in very competitive machinery, literally the same as Michael in the ferrari days, everyone knows how he did there (wasn't bad, but couldnt match Michael).

:laugh: GlPrj9a88ME

He did as much as he was "ALLOWED" to do. This is a well known fact, that Rubens signed a lapdog contract at Ferrari.


How about starting with the last 5 races? I dont think Nico has done the same as he did last year or even close. And I'm amazed to see your knowledge of Schumi's hours in the sim, could you give us an exact # and of nico's too?? Its very easy to sepculate whats happening and whats not happening in F1 with each driver, and by my reckoning he is doing pretty good in last few races and over all this year. Lets see how he does when he gets competitive machinery. When it was a bit close he held up lewis for half the race ;)

He has capitalized on the fact that Nico has been having brain farts during races this year. Or it's just the difference in tyres from last year. Once everything stabilizes, the cream might rise to the top again, and yeah, I'm talking about Nico. Also, it's again a very well known and obvious fact that drivers spend hours and hours in simulators because of the testing ban now, it's no "secret". So yeah, Michael has had more than enough time to get used to racing again, and frankly he looks rather ordinary.

The only reason he held up Lewis at Monza was because his Mercedes wasn't running the DRS wing, and Lewis' Mclaren was, and hence Lewis couldn't get in the slipsteam anywhere else on the track but in the DRS zones. On other parts of the track he was blocking like a bitch, and the FIA had to warn him for that. And even when Lewis did get in the slipstream on the start/finish straight, the way his engine was set up, kept hitting the rev limiter much before Michael did. It's just simple stuff if you paid more attention. Just don't be like other Michael fanboys, they have an orgasm anytime he's anywhere near the top or mixing it with the big boys, and every other "detail" is conveniently ignored.

[Knock-on]

DC was never a contender, only when Mika lost his passion. And on equal terms, Hakkinen was very much a match for Michael. It took Ferrari a whole lot of testing and new parts for Michael to finally take that crown in 2000, for ex. the 049b engine Monza 2000 onwards, and the fact that Bridgestone favored Ferrari mid season, the reason why so many teams jumped to Michelin when they entered the sport. Schumacher's WDC in 1994 is clouded by his "accident" with Hill, and the WDC in 1995 also tainted because of Benetton's mysterious traction control. 2001, 2002 and 2004 championships were won in clearly the best car in the field, which any of the top tier drivers now could do just as easily.

Also, you first say Michael is not as strong as he was back then, but he showed how good he still is at those 3 races this year? That means in your opinion he's still good? And he's been consistently out qualified and outraced by Nico, so then in equal machinery and equal footing, NR is a better driver than the "greatest" driver ever?

Besides age is not a valid excuse anymore. Rubens is only 3 years younger, and he did absolutely fine against Button in 2009, and is doing so now too against a much younger Maldonado. I've seen 45+ year old combat sport veterans outstrike and outlast much younger opponents. Agreed they don't have to endure g-forces, but people who have been athletes all their life, have a much longer prime period, and their reflexes are still very strong for a very long time.

The second excuse is time away from sport. Well, he has had two winter testing periods and almost two seasons under his belt now, and I'm sure many, many hours in the simulator. When is he gonna start beating Nico Rosberg decisively and consistently? He's just about only matching him now. Does he need half a decade to get used to racing again??

^^This^^

Schumacher is the 'greatest' in an era where he had only sporadic challenges. Either it was at the end of drivers careers like Senna or the crop of new drivers hadn't come through.

He and Ferrari also had a number of advantages for quite a number of years whether that was Stones, Electronics, FIA etc.

Then we have his blatant on-track cheating which accounted for at least 1 of his titles not even counting the Schumy swerve which necessitated the one move rule being brought in.

For a couple of years before he retired it was obvious to me that he had lost the edge that he used to have. There were flashes of it but overall, he looked like he was missing the spark that was there before. It was foolish to come back and subject himself to the humiliation of being shown up by Nico.

[555-04Q2]

I find it funny that Sutil has 13 votes, while di Resta has 1.

Well known fact...the majority of people are idiots.

[Knock-on]

Well known fact...the majority of people are idiots.

Are you in the minority or are you normal ;)

[CaptainRaiden]

^^This^^

Schumacher is the 'greatest' in an era where he had only sporadic challenges. Either it was at the end of drivers careers like Senna or the crop of new drivers hadn't come through.

He and Ferrari also had a number of advantages for quite a number of years whether that was Stones, Electronics, FIA etc.

Then we have his blatant on-track cheating which accounted for at least 1 of his titles not even counting the Schumy swerve which necessitated the one move rule being brought in.

For a couple of years before he retired it was obvious to me that he had lost the edge that he used to have. There were flashes of it but overall, he looked like he was missing the spark that was there before. It was foolish to come back and subject himself to the humiliation of being shown up by Nico.

Agreed.

He is the most successful driver, yes, but that doesn't automatically make him the greatest ever. If his fans want to believe so, then good for them. He's not the greatest IMO. With Schumacher, there are always so many other factors to take into consideration. Yes, his debut at Spa was mighty impressive, and he's undoubtedly mega talented, but there's so much crap surrounding his career that it's difficult to call him the "greatest".

[jens]

How do we define 'great' and who can be considered as a true great under this criteria then? With Senna we can also use arguments of pushing drivers off the track and alleged Honda favoritism in 88-89, also denying Warwick a drive alongside him in '86. In Prost's case we can talk about politics (denying Senna a drive alongside him in 1993), good relations with Balestre, etc.

[Knock-on]

How do we define 'great' and who can be considered as a true great under this criteria then? With Senna we can also use arguments of pushing drivers off the track and alleged Honda favoritism in 88-89, also denying Warwick a drive alongside him in '86. In Prost's case we can talk about politics (denying Senna a drive alongside him in 1993), good relations with Balestre, etc.

I agree. It is very much a judgement that each person makes.

We have Greats in the sport like Schumacher, Senna, Prost, Clarke, Surtees, Fangio and they each have their place in the Hall of fame.

Who the best is is like trying to get people to agree what the best wine is. Some will say Sancerre, some Chablis, some a Chateau neuf du Pape and some just like the Lambrini. It's all about taste.

[Garry Walker]

Being shown the way by Barbie for the last two years somehow doesn't go with the "greatest" theory. :)

Schumacher has been faster than Barbie in most races this year.



DC was never a contender, only when Mika lost his passion. So mika lost his passion in 1997?



And on equal terms, Hakkinen was very much a match for Michael.
LOL. Mika was nowhere near as good as MS. Unless you want to claim McLaren and Ferrari were equal in 1998?



It took Ferrari a whole lot of testing and new parts for Michael to finally take that crown in 2000, for ex. the 049b engine Monza 2000 onwards, and the fact that Bridgestone favored Ferrari mid season, the reason why so many teams jumped to Michelin when they entered the sport. Ferrari was the only team to bring upgrades and new developments to their car throughout the season?




Schumacher's WDC in 1994 is clouded by his "accident" with Hill, and the WDC in 1995 also tainted because of Benetton's mysterious traction control. 2001, 2002 and 2004 championships were won in clearly the best car in the field, which any of the top tier drivers now could do just as easily.
1) The accident with Hill was 100% the fault of Damon. There was no room for him, there never was going to be any room for him, yet he stupidly tried to bully his way through.
2)In 1995 there were no TC accusations and no TC was ever found on Benetton. Now, McLaren is a different case in that they actually got caught cheating in 1994.
Oh and DC admitted that Williams Renault tested the car with TC after it was banned already. Cheaters!



Besides age is not a valid excuse anymore. Rubens is only 3 years younger, and he did absolutely fine against Button in 2009, and is doing so now too against a much younger Maldonado. Yeah, Maldonado the superstar.



I've seen 45+ year old combat sport veterans outstrike and outlast much younger opponents. Agreed they don't have to endure g-forces, but people who have been athletes all their life, have a much longer prime period, and their reflexes are still very strong for a very long time.

The second excuse is time away from sport. Well, he has had two winter testing periods and almost two seasons under his belt now, and I'm sure many, many hours in the simulator. When is he gonna start beating Nico Rosberg decisively and consistently? He's just about only matching him now. Does he need half a decade to get used to racing again??

MS does not use the simulator for the same reason Kimi doesnt - they get sick in it.

Do you think MS is as good now as he was in 2001?



Agreed that he brings in good sponsorship money, and it makes sense as the whole German Mercedes-Schumacher affair, but there are a lot more capable drivers out there who would be making good use of that seat.LOL. Like who? Name one.




Because Ferrari clearly had the biggest budget of all in those years, and the years following, everybody knows this. Only Toyota had a bigger budget than Ferrari and Mclaren in 2008. And before you go on describing Michael as some brilliant car setup guy, the biggest piece of the pie goes to the actual engineers, designers and mechanics who worked at the factory.The only thing you have right here is that Michael or no other driver designs the car. Driver has very little to do with the quality of his car, that is up to the engineers.




How old are you? Are you aware of the whole 1994 controversy at all? I would have asked you to Google it, but here, I'll help ya out: 1994 Formula One cheating controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Formula_One_cheating_controversy)

F1 News - Grandprix.com > GP Encyclopedia > People > Tad Czapski (http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/cref-czatad.html)

That Benetton still to this day is one of the most blatantly illegal cars to ever win a championship. There were allegations that Benetton were still using it in 1995. Also, search Youtube for Michael's "brilliant" starts during the Benetton years where he used to gobble up 3-4 cars within the first 50 meters. *cough* illegal launch control. *cough*
Name examples of those super starts he had in 1994 and 1995 where he overtook many cars at the start? Examples!
The only brilliant start he had was at France in 1994 where he went from 3rd to 1st, but other than that he had plenty of bad starts.



The flexible wings row was again an allegation at Ferrari during, surprise, surprise, Michael's time there. The double diffuser wasn't cheating, or else they'd have banned it. Instead, they allowed all the other teams to come up with their own interpretations. If the double diffuser was so advantageous, Toyota would have won as well, as them and Brawn were the only ones coming out of the box with it.
Were Ferrari punished for it? No.
Was it illegal? No



Also, Michael didn't win the 1994 championship "fair and square". Shamelessly punting out your championship rival at the last race of the season is not "fair and square". The one who did the punting was stupid Damon who tried to overtake in a place where it was impossible.



See Michael and Damon accident at Adelaide 1994. He was using illegal TC, and yet was about to get beaten by Damon Hill, and when he saw the championship slipping away, he just turned into Damon, breaking his suspension arm. I don't think any other driver in the modern era has been that blatantly ruthless, careless and cheating. Now, the way Button, Seb and Lewis have won their championship is what you call fair and square.
Again you keep going on about TC and Benetton having it. Reality is not your friend though. TC was never found on the Benetton, never was there any proof they used it. Do you have proof that they used it? If you dont, then admit you were speaking BS.



BTW he was disqualified twice during 1994.

Do you even know for what?



Ferrari were disqualified at the end of 1999 as well for using illegal barge boards, and then FIA withdrew the disqualification and let them fight for the title at Suzuka. Guess because they knew the disqualification was pure crap and the wrong decision to make.



Also in 2003, when Ferrari and your precious Schumi were getting beaten, they launched a protest against Michelin regarding tyre width, which BTW was the same since 2001. FIA banned those tyres mid-season, which allowed Michael and Ferrari to take the 2003 crown. These are the kinds of incidents that got FIA the infamous name, "Ferrari International Assiatance" FYI. Even the great Ross Brawn was struggling for answers.So Michelin was cheating for over 2 years? That is just disgusting.




So, the 1994 title was won in a blatantly illegal car. Damon dropped the ball in 1995. 2001, 2002, 2004 titles won in clearly the best car in the field, 2003 title again shrouded in controversy, won by only two points over the newbie Kimi, and all this while his biggest competition being DC, Montoya and his little brother. :laugh: Overrated driver? Yes. His "greatness" is simply overamplified by his impressive stats, which either Alonso, Lewis, Seb or Webber would have achieved in those dominating Ferraris, as Kimi demonstrated in 2007 by winning the WDC. LOL.
Where is your proof that Benetton was illegal in 1994?
I could claim you are packing a 2,5 inch dick based on that internet survey that found that indian men have the smallest penises in the world, but I have no proof, do I? But based on your approach, evidence and facts are not needed.



With better races, he can definitely outclass Michael, as he did last year.He has been slower in races, faster in qualifying.



athletes even as old as 48 have done pretty well in other sports.You really are stupid arent you? F1 is not "other sports".
Sure you can be great at darts even at 60, but F1 is a different kind of sport.



The only reason he held up Lewis at Monza was because his Mercedes wasn't running the DRS wing, and Lewis' Mclaren was, and hence Lewis couldn't get in the slipsteam anywhere else on the track but in the DRS zones. On other parts of the track he was blocking like a bitch, and the FIA had to warn him for that. And even when Lewis did get in the slipstream on the start/finish straight, the way his engine was set up, kept hitting the rev limiter much before Michael did. It's just simple stuff if you paid more attention. Just don't be like other Michael fanboys, they have an orgasm anytime he's anywhere near the top or mixing it with the big boys, and every other "detail" is conveniently ignored.
MS was teaching a nice lesson to Hamilton at Monza and such blocking should be part of racing. Why bother racing if you just have to give up your place to the guy behind you?
That FIA has moved in to ban such racing only makes me less of an f1 fan. I have missed the last few races and have had zero interest in what is happening in F1 nowadays.

[ioan]

Very true. Would he have won all those titles if the grid back then was as strong as it is today is also a question that will be raised as long as mankind is around. :)

I suppose you have means of proving that today's grid is more competitive than it was between 1991 and 2006. Looking forward to have a good laugh! :)

[ioan]

Schumacher has been faster than Barbie in most races this year.


So mika lost his passion in 1997?


LOL. Mika was nowhere near as good as MS. Unless you want to claim McLaren and Ferrari were equal in 1998?


Ferrari was the only team to bring upgrades and new developments to their car throughout the season?



1) The accident with Hill was 100% the fault of Damon. There was no room for him, there never was going to be any room for him, yet he stupidly tried to bully his way through.
2)In 1995 there were no TC accusations and no TC was ever found on Benetton. Now, McLaren is a different case in that they actually got caught cheating in 1994.
Oh and DC admitted that Williams Renault tested the car with TC after it was banned already. Cheaters!

Yeah, Maldonado the superstar.



MS does not use the simulator for the same reason Kimi doesnt - they get sick in it.

Do you think MS is as good now as he was in 2001?


LOL. Like who? Name one.


The only thing you have right here is that Michael or no other driver designs the car. Driver has very little to do with the quality of his car, that is up to the engineers.



Name examples of those super starts he had in 1994 and 1995 where he overtook many cars at the start? Examples!
The only brilliant start he had was at France in 1994 where he went from 3rd to 1st, but other than that he had plenty of bad starts.


Were Ferrari punished for it? No.
Was it illegal? No

The one who did the punting was stupid Damon who tried to overtake in a place where it was impossible.


Again you keep going on about TC and Benetton having it. Reality is not your friend though. TC was never found on the Benetton, never was there any proof they used it. Do you have proof that they used it? If you dont, then admit you were speaking BS.


Do you even know for what?

Guess because they knew the disqualification was pure crap and the wrong decision to make.

So Michelin was cheating for over 2 years? That is just disgusting.


LOL.
Where is your proof that Benetton was illegal in 1994?
I could claim you are packing a 2,5 inch dick based on that internet survey that found that indian men have the smallest penises in the world, but I have no proof, do I? But based on your approach, evidence and facts are not needed.

He has been slower in races, faster in qualifying.

You really are stupid arent you? F1 is not "other sports".
Sure you can be great at darts even at 60, but F1 is a different kind of sport.


MS was teaching a nice lesson to Hamilton at Monza and such blocking should be part of racing. Why bother racing if you just have to give up your place to the guy behind you?
That FIA has moved in to ban such racing only makes me less of an f1 fan. I have missed the last few races and have had zero interest in what is happening in F1 nowadays.

Agree with every point made! :up:

Then again your well reasoned points will all go lost on some people around here.
No matter how much logic you use they will try to drag you down to their level and beat you with their experience in posting rubbish. ;)

[Knock-on]

Well, Schumy sure showed Nico in qualifying again today :laugh:

Probably saving his tyres for the race :p