Red Flagged Race Rules.

[steveaki13]

I have not had time to look into it yet, but it seems bizzare that I have never seen F1's rules play out like this before.



My understanding was if a Red Flag is issued before 75% racing distance completed then the results is declared a half points. (i.e- Adelaide in 1991, and other races)

Then if a Red Flag is issued after 75% distance then full points. (Brazil 2003 after a massive shunt by Webber then Alonso running into the wreckage).

Never have I seen a race when the race has been stopped with 6 laps to go and ticks over two hours and then is still restarted. (Maybe the rules have actually been changed, but for me it is more sensible to stop todays race on lap 72).

Also being able to change so much on the grid before a restart. What is the limit, can you potentially put a new engine in if the race is stopped for ages.

For me todays race should have been stopped after 72 laps, with full points and in a stopped race then no changes should be allowed to make to the cars.

What are your thoughts?

[Dave B]

Never have I seen a race when the race has been stopped with 6 laps to go and ticks over two hours and then is still restarted. (Maybe the rules have actually been changed, but for me it is more sensible to stop todays race on lap 72).

Agreed, the race should never have been restarted as we'd reached the 75% limit. There was debris on the track, cold tyres, drivers concerned about Petrov's condition, and lapped cars out of position just asking for trouble (which happenned).



Also being able to change so much on the grid before a restart. What is the limit, can you potentially put a new engine in if the race is stopped for ages.

You could theoretically change anything as it's race conditions, not parc ferme. It's stupid. The cars should be restarted in whatever state they were red-flagged, and if anybody wants to have a tyre change they should come into the pits one the race resumes (save for safety concerns, in which case they be worked on and restarted from the pitlane and at the back of the field).


For me todays race should have been stopped after 72 laps, with full points and in a stopped race then no changes should be allowed to make to the cars.

What are your thoughts?
Exactly that. :up:

[AndyL]

Sporting regulations are clear that the "full points after 75% race distance" rule only comes in if the race cannot be resumed. But I can't remember this happening before either, so I'm not sure why things were different in the examples given. Have the sporting regulations changed?

[Dave B]

The rules are linked to here:
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/05/29/article-41-1-sporting-regulations/

It's up to the race controller whether or not to resume the race, and in this instance they chose to.

[BDunnell]

I cannot recall seeing a race in any formula, let alone F1, being resumed in such circumstances. Those with more understanding of the rule book than I have might wish to enlighten us all as to whether provision is now made for what happened today. I was surprised to say the least.

EDIT — just seen the post above. Hope this doesn't become a trend in all formulae.

[steveaki13]

Still makes me feel a bit miffed.

I think the rules need to be tweeked to make it a bit more sensible in dangerous conditions. i.e damage to barriers or too much debris.

[ioan]

I have not had time to look into it yet, but it seems bizzare that I have never seen F1's rules play out like this before.



My understanding was if a Red Flag is issued before 75% racing distance completed then the results is declared a half points. (i.e- Adelaide in 1991, and other races)

Then if a Red Flag is issued after 75% distance then full points. (Brazil 2003 after a massive shunt by Webber then Alonso running into the wreckage).

Never have I seen a race when the race has been stopped with 6 laps to go and ticks over two hours and then is still restarted. (Maybe the rules have actually been changed, but for me it is more sensible to stop todays race on lap 72).

Also being able to change so much on the grid before a restart. What is the limit, can you potentially put a new engine in if the race is stopped for ages.

For me todays race should have been stopped after 72 laps, with full points and in a stopped race then no changes should be allowed to make to the cars.

What are your thoughts?

Fully agree.

[BDunnell]

I have not had time to look into it yet, but it seems bizzare that I have never seen F1's rules play out like this before.



My understanding was if a Red Flag is issued before 75% racing distance completed then the results is declared a half points. (i.e- Adelaide in 1991, and other races)

Then if a Red Flag is issued after 75% distance then full points. (Brazil 2003 after a massive shunt by Webber then Alonso running into the wreckage).

Never have I seen a race when the race has been stopped with 6 laps to go and ticks over two hours and then is still restarted. (Maybe the rules have actually been changed, but for me it is more sensible to stop todays race on lap 72).

Also being able to change so much on the grid before a restart. What is the limit, can you potentially put a new engine in if the race is stopped for ages.

For me todays race should have been stopped after 72 laps, with full points and in a stopped race then no changes should be allowed to make to the cars.

What are your thoughts?

And where does aggregate timing come into all of this?

[steveaki13]

And where does aggregate timing come into all of this?

I think that was cancelled around 1995.

[Dave B]

And where does aggregate timing come into all of this?

It doesn't, the race resumes in the order it was when the red flags came out (end of the previous lap, anyway). It's a straight sprint to the finish.

[Azumanga Davo]

I thought that was a bit odd. No argument on restarting a race after 75%, it's a good thing to do if there's ample time to do so. I am however on the side of leaving the cars in the condition they stopped on. And certainly not because Button's chances had vanished this time, I just believe that's the fair thing to do every single time this situation occurs.

[Mark]

I would think after 75% they should just stop the race. But take the result from 2 laps previously.

I did think red flags included the 2 hour limit, such as happened with Malaysia 2009

[N4D13]

I would think after 75% they should just stop the race. But take the result from 2 laps previously.

I did think red flags included the 2 hour limit, such as happened with Malaysia 2009
Malaysia didn't have anything to do with the time limit, but with the poor visibility. That's why the race wasn't resumed then.

[Mark]

Ah right. I understand.

[AndyL]

I thought that was a bit odd. No argument on restarting a race after 75%, it's a good thing to do if there's ample time to do so. I am however on the side of leaving the cars in the condition they stopped on. And certainly not because Button's chances had vanished this time, I just believe that's the fair thing to do every single time this situation occurs.

Yes, it would seem to make sense to restart the race from the same situation they were in before the suspension. But for whatever reason, the rules do explicitly allow for the cars to be worked on.

[The Black Knight]

While I agree with teams being allowed to work on the drivers cars when a race is stopped, I believe that Vettel had a tyre change throughout the postponement? I would not have thought this was fair to other racers personally. It's basically a free pitstop nowadays. Or am I wrong and did he not change his tyres?

[ioan]

While I agree with teams being allowed to work on the drivers cars when a race is stopped, I believe that Vettel had a tyre change throughout the postponement? I would not have thought this was fair to other racers personally. It's basically a free pitstop nowadays. Or am I wrong and did he not change his tyres?

So it's OK to repair bodywork but it's not OK to change tires?

[Rollo]

So it's OK to repair bodywork but it's not OK to change tires?

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... 3-2011.pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/B629812D19AA0E20C125789400396558/$FILE/1-2011%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%2008-03-2011.pdf)

41.4
Whilst the race is suspended :
- neither the race nor the timekeeping system will stop, however, in accordance with Article 5.3 the
length of the race suspension will be added to the maximum two hour period ;
- cars may be worked on once they have stopped on the grid or entered the pits but any such work
must not impede the resumption of the race ;
- only team members and officials will be permitted on the grid.

All the regulation says is that the "cars may be worked on". I guess that because there aren't any sort of limits on what can be worked on, that there aren't any. Presumably if a team was able to change an engine if it didn't "impede the resumption of the race" then that would also be allowed.

It all seems a bit crazy to me and I must admit I'm not sure why the regulation stands as it does. Though I can understand for reasons of safety that there could be some reasons, but I'm not sure what.

[The Black Knight]

So it's OK to repair bodywork but it's not OK to change tires?

While I'd imagine repairing bodywork would be Ok for safety reasons because Hamilton hadn't received a black flag at the time of the red flag I can't imagine that tyres would. I'm just saying I don't see why he was allowed change his tyres. It seemed odd to me, and I didn't realise they could do it. I always thought tyres could only be changed in the pits.

[steveaki13]

I still wonder if and when these rules came in.

I'm not sure they have always been this way.

The same with the restart rule, because that was not the case in 2003. After the huge crash there, they could have cleaned the track, although it would have taken a bit longer than today. Instead it was declared a result after 54 laps of 71.

[steveaki13]

While I'd imagine repairing bodywork would be Ok for safety reasons because Hamilton hadn't received a black flag at the time of the red flag I can't imagine that tyres would. I'm just saying I don't see why he was allowed change his tyres. It seemed odd to me, and I didn't realise they could do it. I always thought tyres could only be changed in the pits.

I thought they all changed tyres during the Red Flag. Although it robbed us of a potential tight finish, it seemed pretty even and fair.

Although me personally don't think it should be allowed.

[Rollo]

I'm just saying I don't see why he was allowed change his tyres. It seemed odd to me, and I didn't realise they could do it. I always thought tyres could only be changed in the pits.

If the rules don't say that you can't do something then there isn't anything from preventing you doing it.

[Cooper_S]

I'm sure that both Williams and Sauber would agree, they lost out the most by having a restart from what I saw.

I guess it is academic now as it would not have changed the podium finishes.

[Anubis]

I would think after 75% they should just stop the race. But take the result from 2 laps previously.
2009

The two lap count back wouldn't work, as you'd get situations where someone could crash out to cause the red flag but still get a result. Conceivably you could have someone crash out of the lead yet still end up winning, which wouldn't be especially satisfactory. Surprised to see a red flag actually. Can't remember the last race that was stopped due to an accident. No issue with that if it was felt necessary, and likewise no issue with restarting it, but it's a shame the tyre changes happened, as it killed the excitement.

[steveaki13]

The two lap count back wouldn't work, as you'd get situations where someone could crash out to cause the red flag but still get a result. Conceivably you could have someone crash out of the lead yet still end up winning, which wouldn't be especially satisfactory. Surprised to see a red flag actually. Can't remember the last race that was stopped due to an accident. No issue with that if it was felt necessary, and likewise no issue with restarting it, but it's a shame the tyre changes happened, as it killed the excitement.

That happened in 2003 in Brazil Alonso crashed into the debris after a big crash by Webber, he was the only one not to slow down as seen here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ts07b7uo7E&NR=1

and a lap later the race was stopped due to Alonso. It went back 2 laps and he was on the podium. Albeit he was in an ambulance while the podium took place. Still got the 3rd though.

I think in the event of a race stopped by red flag, it needs to be taken from the end of the last lap.

[Cooper_S]

The two lap count back wouldn't work, as you'd get situations where someone could crash out to cause the red flag but still get a result. Conceivably you could have someone crash out of the lead yet still end up winning, which wouldn't be especially satisfactory. Surprised to see a red flag actually. Can't remember the last race that was stopped due to an accident. No issue with that if it was felt necessary, and likewise no issue with restarting it, but it's a shame the tyre changes happened, as it killed the excitement.

That is how Giancarlo Fisichella won his first GP.

[wedge]

I cannot recall seeing a race in any formula, let alone F1, being resumed in such circumstances. Those with more understanding of the rule book than I have might wish to enlighten us all as to whether provision is now made for what happened today. I was surprised to say the least.

EDIT — just seen the post above. Hope this doesn't become a trend in all formulae.

It happens in NASCAR but Indycar?

Recently in NASCAR there is the green-white-checker whereby 3 attempts are made to restart the race without a pace/safety car. Won't be too long when a race won't finish under SC in F1.

[Marbles]

What a joke!

Walt Disney rules. I can see the engine change happening on Herbie the Love Bug as we speak.

It's amusing someone mentioned "aggregate time". It's funny to see how far they haven't come. I use to roll my eyes when they'd stop a race when it rained so everyone could put on wet tires and then restart (yes, standing start again) and everyone one would have to get out their calculators to figure out who actually won the race... didn't matter who crossed the finish line first.

[BobbyC]

It happens in NASCAR but Indycar?

Recently in NASCAR there is the green-white-checker whereby 3 attempts are made to restart the race without a pace/safety car. Won't be too long when a race won't finish under SC in F1.

The NASCAR controversy started in the early 1990's, when stewards began judiciously using red flags in the final ten laps on any track to stop a race in an attempt to finish under green in two of the three national series (Trucks never had the rule). By 2003 NASCAR had taken heat for some judicious interpretations that a "last red flag rule" that a "no red flag with less than five laps" rule was adopted. That resulted in a Talladega incident that the GWC rule (BSB also has a similar rule) was adopted. But if there is an excessive amount of debris (which has happened at Watkins Glen), oil (stewards clean oil out), or other incident, regardless, stewards go red.

INDYCAR had a case of a red flag to clean up an excessively debris-laden track with less than ten laps to go once.

And dirt oval racing (midget and sprint cars) have long had a rule that overturning cars is an automatic red flag. No tyre changes allowed unless this is a "break" situation for longer races. With two laps to go in a feature race, a red flag can be called instead of the safety car if the car overturns.

[Ari]

Just absurd for mine.

Should have stopped the race or had them restart in their finishing spec. Basically made it a pointless run to the flag. Oh, and the SC not allowing lapped cars to move out the way was another joke. F1 is a circus these days.

Seb was very fortunate he was able to change tyres.

[Eyo]

It’s not so fair to allow tyre change under red flag without any consequences. I wouldn’t allow any work on the car other then cooling brakes, engine and so on. If someone needs a repair, can start the lap with the safety car and enter the pit before they go on full speed as the safety car comes in.
Without changing the tyres it would have been really exciting to see the top 3 battle it out, especially as the fastest car was 3rd and the slowest 1st.

[Cooper_S]

But a red flag at 72/78 laps should have meant the race was over... and the podium would have been the same. If anyone was 'robbed' it was Sauber and Williams...

Yes Jenson 'may' have passed Alonso and Vettel but at Monaco that cannot be guaranteed... Vettel's tyres had not gone off the cliff as the expression goes and by changing tyres we will never be able to know if or when they would have.

[Eyo]

You are right there was no point in restarting in that case, although I was still hoping for a fight but soon realized there is no chance. But again, if they have continued without touching the cars it would have been a few important lap at the end.