This is getting boring!

[snellman]

A superb driver in a superb car, this is getting boring

[donKey jote]

yep... time to ban something à la Mass Dampers ;) :p

[Daniel]

Go and watch the euromillions draw if you want something unpredictable......

[ioan]

Uh ohh, still not enough show for some people out there?

[N4D13]

We'll still have to see if they end up banning blown diffusers. But even that won't stop Red Bull from taking the crown.

[Dave B]

A superb driver in a superb car, this is getting boring

I'm no Vettel fan but if I had a forelock I'd be tugging it. He's winning on merit, so best of luck to him. It's up to the others to up their game.

[Hawkmoon]

I'm no Vettel fan but if I had a forelock I'd be tugging it. He's winning on merit, so best of luck to him. It's up to the others to up their game.

That's true. It was also true in 2002 when Schumi and Ferrari swept all before them. We saw how the FIA, not to mention the media, reacted then. The stupid rule changes brought in after 2002 have taken years to rectify.

[steveaki13]

Uh ohh, still not enough show for some people out there?

I know. We need even more battling and overtaking, put the cars on ovals. :p :


I'm no Vettel fan but if I had a forelock I'd be tugging it. He's winning on merit, so best of luck to him. It's up to the others to up their game.

:up: The best driver in the best car winning the races and in time the title its how it should be.


That's true. It was also true in 2002 when Schumi and Ferrari swept all before them. We saw how the FIA, not to mention the media, reacted then. The stupid rule changes brought in after 2002 have taken years to rectify.

Agree.
What do people want, why can't people enjoy seeing a currant and future champion at his best.

[ioan]

That's true. It was also true in 2002 when Schumi and Ferrari swept all before them. We saw how the FIA, not to mention the media, reacted then. The stupid rule changes brought in after 2002 have taken years to rectify.

Catering to the occasional fan is the worse thing a sport can do, but then again they are many, too many.

[wedge]

A lucky win. Certainly in the dry this year's RBR isn't as good as last years, IMO.

[ioan]

A lucky win. Certainly in the dry this year's RBR isn't as good as last years, IMO.

Lucky?! Based on what? Certainly not track position.

[Dave B]

A lucky win. Certainly in the dry this year's RBR isn't as good as last years, IMO.

Yessss. He was so lucky to get himself into the lead based on speed and strategy. :\

[wedge]

Of course you make your own luck but I was more interested in whether Vettel would've lasted 60 laps on a set of tyres. If he did, then it would have been a great win. But hey, a win is a win.

[ioan]

Of course you make your own luck but I was more interested in whether Vettel would've lasted 60 laps on a set of tyres. If he did, then it would have been a great win. But hey, a win is a win.

There were only 6 more laps to go and the RBR was more stable and with better traction then the Ferrari and JB was not even trying to threaten Alonso. Vettel was set to win it anyway.

[BDunnell]

There were only 6 more laps to go and the RBR was more stable and with better traction then the Ferrari and JB was not even trying to threaten Alonso. Vettel was set to win it anyway.

I agree. Had there not been the set of circumstances around the first safety car, I am sure Button would have won, but given what happened late in the race Vettel's win was fully deserved.

[AndyL]

Weren't there about 10 laps still to go when the second safety car came out? The big unknown was whether Vettel would reach the "cliff" on the tyres.

[Daniel]

I agree. Had there not been the set of circumstances around the first safety car, I am sure Button would have won, but given what happened late in the race Vettel's win was fully deserved.

Button didn't exactly look as if the passes were guaranteed though.

[ioan]

Weren't there about 10 laps still to go when the second safety car came out? The big unknown was whether Vettel would reach the "cliff" on the tyres.

6 to go.

[ioan]

Button didn't exactly look as if the passes were guaranteed though.

he never ever even tried a move on Alonso even though he was close. Looked to me that he was waiting for the tires of Vettel and Alonso to go off. Not the right attitude to earn a driver of the race nomination, let alone the race win.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

6 to go.

The safety car was out for 2 laps before it was red-flagged so it was 8 laps to go.

[Daniel]

he never ever even tried a move on Alonso even though he was close. Looked to me that he was waiting for the tires of Vettel and Alonso to go off. Not the right attitude to earn a driver of the race nomination, let alone the race win.

Perhaps the pass was guaranteed though..... but the fact that at no point did Button make it look a sure thing doesn't suggest to me that Button wuz robbed.

[Dave B]

he never ever even tried a move on Alonso even though he was close. Looked to me that he was waiting for the tires of Vettel and Alonso to go off. Not the right attitude to earn a driver of the race nomination, let alone the race win.

We'll never know. If he'd bided his time and Vettel's and Alonso's ancient tyres fell off a cliff (and I accept it's merely an "if"), he would have been a deserving winner by virtue of his racecraft. It's not always about outright pace, you should know that as you're always telling us what a purist you are.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

he never ever even tried a move on Alonso even though he was close. Looked to me that he was waiting for the tires of Vettel and Alonso to go off. Not the right attitude to earn a driver of the race nomination, let alone the race win.

If he had attacked Alonso, then Vettel would have pulled away as Alonso was defending. He said in interview that he was waiting for Alonso to have a go at Vettel into turn one and pick up the pieces.

[Daniel]

We'll never know. If he'd bided his time and Vettel's and Alonso's ancient tyres fell off a cliff (and I accept it's merely an "if"), he would have been a deserving winner by virtue of his racecraft. It's not always about outright pace, you should know that as you're always telling us what a purist you are.

Of course. But when you were in school you didn't get grades for ifs and buts :)

[ioan]

The safety car was out for 2 laps before it was red-flagged so it was 8 laps to go.

Maybe. Though I think it was only one SC lap before they realized that they can't get Petrov out of the way.

[Somebody]

Of course, Button almost certainly wouldn't have won even if Vettel's tyres had gone off, because Alonso's tyres - though old - would still have been younger at the end of the race than Vettel's tyres were when the SC came out in the run-up to the red flag, and so wouldn't have hit the cliff.

[BDunnell]

Button didn't exactly look as if the passes were guaranteed though.

Around the first safety car, I said.

[BDunnell]

he never ever even tried a move on Alonso even though he was close. Looked to me that he was waiting for the tires of Vettel and Alonso to go off. Not the right attitude to earn a driver of the race nomination, let alone the race win.

Alain Prost won the 1986 World Championship in a car that was blatantly not the fastest that season, but through consistency and going for percentages. I assume he in no way earns any respect from you either, for what many enthusiasts still consider to have been an exceptionally impressive title victory?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Of course, Button almost certainly wouldn't have won even if Vettel's tyres had gone off, because Alonso's tyres - though old - would still have been younger at the end of the race than Vettel's tyres were when the SC came out in the run-up to the red flag, and so wouldn't have hit the cliff.

Alonso would have tried to go up the inside into the chicane, locked up and have to go through the escape road. He then would have had to let Vettel back past but Button would take advantage and pass both of them. :p

[Daniel]

Alonso would have tried to go up the inside into the chicane, locked up and have to go through the escape road. He then would have had to let Vettel back past but Button would taken advantage and pass both of them.

huh?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

huh?

This was my forecast before the red flag. :p

[ioan]

Alain Prost won the 1986 World Championship in a car that was blatantly not the fastest that season, but through consistency and going for percentages. I assume he in no way earns any respect from you either, for what many enthusiasts still consider to have been an exceptionally impressive title victory?

Can we at all compare what Alain did back then with Button being 5th in the standings and a mile behind Vettel?

[Dave B]

Can we at all compare what Alain did back then with Button being 5th in the standings and a mile behind Vettel?
Shifting the goalposts. We were discussing a single race, in which Button was playing a tactical waiting game. It didn't work out today thanks to an unpredictable safety car, but there's a chance it could have netted him a win or a 2nd place. All conjecture, as I previously said, but as a self-confessed "purist" you must surely recognise that sometimes tactics and racecraft are just as important as outright speed.

[BDunnell]

All conjecture, as I previously said, but as a self-confessed "purist" you must surely recognise that sometimes tactics and racecraft are just as important as outright speed.

I don't see how anyone can call themselves a 'purist' and then get all upset when the team of which they are a fan goes through a bad patch, given said team's history (of which I guess they are largely unaware) of suffering some appalling bad patches, but I guess that's beside the point here.

[ioan]

Shifting the goalposts. We were discussing a single race, in which Button was playing a tactical waiting game. It didn't work out today thanks to an unpredictable safety car, but there's a chance it could have netted him a win or a 2nd place. All conjecture, as I previously said, but as a self-confessed "purist" you must surely recognise that sometimes tactics and racecraft are just as important as outright speed.

When you are 5th in the standings and about 3 race wins worth behind you should not play the waiting game because you will only lose more terrain. Especially when the one winning is also ahead of you in the standings.

And let's not forget that even Alonso is about to overtake Button in the standings.

[BDunnell]

When you are 5th in the standings and about 3 race wins worth behind you should not play the waiting game because you will only lose more terrain. Especially when the one winning is also ahead of you in the standings.

And let's not forget that even Alonso is about to overtake Button in the standings.

What do you mean 'even Alonso' — one of the finest drivers in the world?

[ioan]

What do you mean 'even Alonso' — one of the finest drivers in the world?

The Ferrari is no way equal in performance to the McLaren which puts Button into the shade as far as race craft is concerned.

[Dave B]

When you are 5th in the standings and about 3 race wins worth behind you should not play the waiting game because you will only lose more terrain. Especially when the one winning is also ahead of you in the standings.

I'm not sure whether it's that you cannot or will not understand the point. Button was playing the waiting game in this race, not in the championship overall. He believed - rightly or wrongly - that Vettel's lap times were about to tank, and played the game accordingly.

At the risk of angering you by bringing your hero into the equation, some of Schumacher's best victories have been tactical so it confuses me why you would become so vexed at the thought of Jenson winning in such a way.

[ioan]

I'm not sure whether it's that you cannot or will not understand the point. Button was playing the waiting game in this race, not in the championship overall. He believed - rightly or wrongly - that Vettel's lap times were about to tank, and played the game accordingly.

And I was explaining that he chose the wrong play in this trace given where he stands overall. Or do they not race in a championship anymore?

[BDunnell]

I'm not sure whether it's that you cannot or will not understand the point.

Or, maybe, because the comparison with Prost in 1986 is somewhat lost, referring as it does to a season before the Schumacher era?



At the risk of angering you by bringing your hero into the equation, some of Schumacher's best victories have been tactical so it confuses me why you would become so vexed at the thought of Jenson winning in such a way.

And, indeed, some of them may have been down to car superiority too.

[ioan]

I
At the risk of angering you by bringing your hero into the equation, some of Schumacher's best victories have been tactical so it confuses me why you would become so vexed at the thought of Jenson winning in such a way.

Win vs 3rd place, nuff said.

[Dave B]

And I was explaining that he chose the wrong play in this trace given where he stands overall. Or do they not race in a championship anymore?
You can only play the game one race at a time. Jenson believed (and I repeat: rightly or wrongly, we'll never know) that his tactic would win him the race. It was, on balance, the right thing to do. The second safety car was impossible to predict.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Win vs 3rd place, nuff said.

So one of Schumi's strengths was his ability to predict safety cars and red-flagging of the race? :rolleyes:

[ioan]

So one of Schumi's strengths was his ability to predict safety cars and red-flagging of the race? :rolleyes:

Who said that?

[Robinho]

IMO had the race not been red flagged and new tyres given out Vettel almost certainly would not have managed to stay ahead, What the final order of the top 3 would have been i'm unsure, but I don't think Vettel would have won, in fact he probably would have ended up 3rd, the times were getting progressively worse. What was certain was at the time the fastest of the 3 was at the back of the 3 and the slowest was at the front. As it was the circumstances dictated the end was very different to what we would have seen without the red flag, but you can only work with the circumstances you are presented with and the result is what it is and with a little fortune Vettel took a good win. I don't think he was either the best or the fastest driver today

[Daniel]

IMO had the race not been red flagged and new tyres given out Vettel almost certainly would not have managed to stay ahead, What the final order of the top 3 would have been i'm unsure, but I don't think Vettel would have won, in fact he probably would have ended up 3rd, the times were getting progressively worse. What was certain was at the time the fastest of the 3 was at the back of the 3 and the slowest was at the front. As it was the circumstances dictated the end was very different to what we would have seen without the red flag, but you can only work with the circumstances you are presented with and the result is what it is and with a little fortune Vettel took a good win. I don't think he was either the best or the fastest driver today

We don't know if Vettel was going to fall off the cliff. But I agree that when the race is red flagged it should be parc ferme rules unless it's raining :)

[Robinho]

we don't know, but the odds were in the favour he was heading that way, he was clearly struggling for pace, about 4+ seconds of the eventual fastest lap, on tyres that should have been only 1 sec slower, thats pretty serious degradation. its my feeling that he was on the precipice, and that Red Bull will have been so pleased to have the opportunity to get those tyres off the car. Stoopid rules there, we all wanted to see the end as it was panning out, with the differing tyres

[ioan]

IMO had the race not been red flagged and new tyres given out Vettel almost certainly would not have managed to stay ahead, What the final order of the top 3 would have been i'm unsure, but I don't think Vettel would have won, in fact he probably would have ended up 3rd, the times were getting progressively worse. What was certain was at the time the fastest of the 3 was at the back of the 3 and the slowest was at the front. As it was the circumstances dictated the end was very different to what we would have seen without the red flag, but you can only work with the circumstances you are presented with and the result is what it is and with a little fortune Vettel took a good win. I don't think he was either the best or the fastest driver today


You think that Alonso and Button would have managed around Monaco what Hamilton couldn't in the Spanish GP?

[ioan]

we don't know, but the odds were in the favour he was heading that way, he was clearly struggling for pace, about 4+ seconds of the eventual fastest lap, on tyres that should have been only 1 sec slower, thats pretty serious degradation.

Is it worth pushing hard around Monaco when ahead and all you need is to cover up?
Who says he wasn't nursing his tires by going a couple seconds per lap slower?

And BTW the Ferrari could not keep up under acceleration out of the corners either which leads me to think that Alonso's tires might have been in a worse state than those of Vettel.

The chances for no position change were by far bigger than an overtake happening without a major screw up.

[Robinho]

You think that Alonso and Button would have managed around Monaco what Hamilton couldn't in the Spanish GP?

I think that Alonso and/or Button would have managed to get past Vettel. It was nothing like Spain, there was about a 40 lap spread of wear between the top 3's tyres.

To answer your other question, if Vettel had just been nursing and covering up, i don't think the top 3 would have been running all within 1 sec, that would have been too uncomfortable.

I think your right and Alonso was beginning to struggle with the rears, and don't forget the blown diffuser gives a great advantage to the RBR in the low to mid speed corners like the last one allowing better traction. Vettel was obviously pacing a bit and trying to cover up as much as possible, but he was struggling and i honestly don't think he would have won the race without the red flag and the new tyres. But that is what we got and thats what he did, and he certainly deserves the credit for gettinng to that point in the lead and being in the right place to capitalise. Just for me, today he was not my driver of the day, ok?

[ioan]

I think that Alonso and/or Button would have managed to get past Vettel. It was nothing like Spain, there was about a 40 lap spread of wear between the top 3's tyres.

To answer your other question, if Vettel had just been nursing and covering up, i don't think the top 3 would have been running all within 1 sec, that would have been too uncomfortable.

I think your right and Alonso was beginning to struggle with the rears, and don't forget the blown diffuser gives a great advantage to the RBR in the low to mid speed corners like the last one allowing better traction. Vettel was obviously pacing a bit and trying to cover up as much as possible, but he was struggling and i honestly don't think he would have won the race without the red flag and the new tyres. But that is what we got and thats what he did, and he certainly deserves the credit for gettinng to that point in the lead and being in the right place to capitalise. Just for me, today he was not my driver of the day, ok?

Fair enough! :up:

[jens]

Considering that I'm a bit of a fanboy, I'm liking all of this so far. After all the struggles of 2010, everything is finally falling into place and I'm enjoying the level of precision Team Vettel has achieved by now. His season hasn't been perfect either (some risky strategies and malfunctioning KERS), but Seb has been driving flawlessly to capitalize on the situations as much as possible.

But taking a bit of a wider view, I'm satisfied as long as the races are entertaining. And my goodness, they are! Points table IMO isn't really that important, it's just an off-track activity of adding numbers to each other. Of course a tight battle would add to the drama, but while watching the race, just forget it and enjoy all the battles there are going on through the field! I would be concerned if it was like 2002, when we had both domination and boring races.

[F1boat]

But taking a bit of a wider view, I'm satisfied as long as the races are entertaining. And my goodness, they are! Points table IMO isn't really that important, it's just an off-track activity of adding numbers to each other.
Exactly!

[wedge]

You think that Alonso and Button would have managed around Monaco what Hamilton couldn't in the Spanish GP?

No one knew how the tyres would last.

Look at Schumi and Rosberg in the first stint when the their tyres went junk.

[wedge]

Yessss. He was so lucky to get himself into the lead based on speed and strategy. :\

Lucky that he was on the 'right' tyre it seems

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91866

[CNR]

if anything button was lucky he got to warm up his tyres behind the safty car and not at race pace when you look at alonso on the out lap
and crazy frog may have still done it on a 1 stop

[DexDexter]

Uh ohh, still not enough show for some people out there?

Good show but Vettel is winning them too often. Great driver but let's hope he has some DNFs just to make it more exciting. 99% of viewers don't want to see Vettel running away with it. Domination is never good.

[555-04Q2]

A superb driver in a superb car, this is getting boring

Bullsh!t. This is one of the best starts to a season since the early 1990's. We are seeing some real racing the whole way down the field. I couldn't give a sh!t is Vettel wins every race remaining this year, as long as the close racing continues. Bring on the rest of 2011 I say.

[F1boat]

Yes, and I'd be priviliged to see (finally) another convincing WDC after M Schumacher. And DNF is a bit cruel wish, given Seb's past...

[Cooper_S]

After winning the WDC last year without ever leading the championship and suffereing plenty of DNF's I think it will take more than a a few DNF's to stop Vettel this season as he already had two DNF's in hand over Lewis, Jenson and Mark and 3 over Alonso.

[N. Jones]

A superb driver in a superb car, this is getting boring
Can't see how 1st-2nd-3rd separated by a half second can be considered boring. That was the best Monaco GP I have ever seen.

[Cooper_S]

the red flag tyre change arguments are a red herring... as the race should have finnished when it as red flaged, and the result would have been the same... this is F1 and those are the breaks.

If Jenson and the Mclaren are truly now as good as they appear a win is not far away.

[airshifter]

Bullsh!t. This is one of the best starts to a season since the early 1990's. We are seeing some real racing the whole way down the field. I couldn't give a sh!t is Vettel wins every race remaining this year, as long as the close racing continues. Bring on the rest of 2011 I say.


Something we agree on. Though the Red Bull is probably the best car in the field, nobody is handing Sebastian these wins.

Red Bull and Sebastian rolled the dice on the tire strategy, and decided on a very ballsy move to stay on the tires and go for a win rather than change and probably end up 3rd. In doing so he forced himself to take care of the tires that were well beyond lap expectations... and to do it while holding off two other former WDCs in great cars with much newer tires.

Personally I think Button catching up to Alonso played a huge part. Until then Alonso could focus on hounding Vettel and hoping for a mistake. Once Jenson caught up Alonso had to split his focus.

Vettel used the strong points of the car to do the same thing he did to Lewis in Spain. He was getting great exits, saving his KERS to defend when needed, and controlling the race.



One of the best Monaco races in many years IMO, and overall one of the best season starts in many years.

[ioan]

No one knew how the tyres would last.

Look at Schumi and Rosberg in the first stint when the their tyres went junk.

Was Vettel driving a crappy W02 and we missed it? You always compare apples and bananas, strange habit.

[ioan]

Great driver but let's hope he has some DNFs just to make it more exciting.

Wishing bad on someone just for the show's sake! :down:

[AndyL]

the red flag tyre change arguments are a red herring... as the race should have finnished when it as red flaged, and the result would have been the same... this is F1 and those are the breaks.

Whether the result would have been the same is not the point. If tyre changes hadn't been allowed, then we might have got the thrilling finale that had been building up before the safety car. Even if Vettel's tyres had lasted and neither Alonso nor Button had been able to pass, it still would have been a rivetting last few laps. The finish we got was a bit of an anticlimax, and if they'd called it at the red flag that would have been an anticlimax too.

[Cooper_S]

How is that not the point... tyre changes are are allowed so there really is no point in saying they shouldn't or for that matter this, that or the other 'may' have happened... I mean for every possible alternative result where Vettel did not win there are other possible alternatives resulting in Vettel still winning....

Had they banned tyre changes and restarted... Jenson and Alonso could have tangled next lap and left Vettle 5 laps to cruise home nursing his tyres all the way... that would also have been an anticlimax.

[555-04Q2]

Something we agree on.

Thanks, now it's raining outside :p :

[SGWilko]

Bullsh!t. This is one of the best starts to a season since the early 1990's. We are seeing some real racing the whole way down the field. I couldn't give a sh!t is Vettel wins every race remaining this year, as long as the close racing continues. Bring on the rest of 2011 I say.

Seconded!