KERS at start of the race.

[Whyzars]

Something has always bugged me about the way KERS is being used.

I don't believe that KERS should receive its charge outside of the racing and therefore should not be available at the start.

I don't know if they're looking at changing this any time soon but I believe that they should. KERS is an energy recovery system and, in my opinion, the energy recovered should only be from racing.

[slowDan]

I'm guessing that it gets charged during the warm up lap. At least I've never heard of any chargers being plugged in while they're in the pits. Whether or not that counts as racing though is more tricky! ;)

[Mark]

Paul Di Restaurant just saying part of the pre race procedure is charging the KERS.

[Daniel]

Something has always bugged me about the way KERS is being used.

I don't believe that KERS should receive its charge outside of the racing and therefore should not be available at the start.

I don't know if they're looking at changing this any time soon but I believe that they should. KERS is an energy recovery system and, in my opinion, the energy recovered should only be from racing.

And you wondered why I thought you were new to watching F1 :rolleyes:

[Whyzars]

And you wondered why I thought you were new to watching F1 :rolleyes:

I have no idea what you're talking about.

KERS being available off the start ensured that a Ferrari injected itself into the front of this Grand Prix in Spain, effectively destroying Webber's race and cost us any chance of seeing a battle involving both Red Bulls.

Yep, KERS is a peach.

[Daniel]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

KERS being available off the start ensured that a Ferrari injected itself into the front of this Grand Prix in Spain, effectively destroying Webber's race and cost us any chance of seeing a battle involving both Red Bulls.

Yep, KERS is a peach.
and if Webber wasn't Australian and Alonso was?

Webber didn't start as well, Alonso started better. Isn't racing meant to reward the better driver?

[ioan]

And you wondered why I thought you were new to watching F1 :rolleyes:

Why attack the poster instead of making a sane point?! :rolleyes:

[Daniel]

Why attack the poster instead of making a sane point?! :rolleyes:

Because their post had no point. Complaining that Fernando's KERS ruined Mark's race. Mark ruined Mark's race by not getting off the mark quick enough. MARK MARK MARK!!!!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Because their post had no point. Complaining that Fernando's KERS ruined Mark's race. Mark ruined Mark's race by not getting off the mark quick enough. MARK MARK MARK!!!!

To be fair, this thread was started before the start of the race.

[ioan]

Because their post had no point. Complaining that Fernando's KERS ruined Mark's race. Mark ruined Mark's race by not getting off the mark quick enough. MARK MARK MARK!!!!

To be honest Mark ruined his own race by defending like crazy against his own team mate and not covering the Ferrari instead.
Mark has got too many chips on his shoulder re his team mate.

Also, as already pointed out:


To be fair, this thread was started before te start of the race.

[Whyzars]

and if Webber wasn't Australian and Alonso was?

Webber didn't start as well, Alonso started better. Isn't racing meant to reward the better driver?

Absolutely, but Alonso actually led this Grand Prix and finished a minute behind at the end. :crazy:

There is something very wrong when results like this are being seen without any significant incident occurring. Ferrari and Alonso have a great package off the line.

Webber has always been a slow starter and Webber is suffering more than anyone else through KERS having energy available that is not scavenged during the race.

Alonso is the best driver on the grid by a country mile. His qualifying lap on Saturday was proof positive of that.

[Daniel]

Absolutely, but Alonso actually led this Grand Prix and finished a minute behind at the end. :crazy:


That's what happens in races though.....

[Mark]

Firstly it's a team sport. And secondly the points are awarded for an entire Grand Prix, not over a single lap.

[ioan]

Alonso is the best driver on the grid by a country mile. His qualifying lap on Saturday was proof positive of that.

Sure sure, and by today's race Vettel is better by about 4 kilometers. :rolleyes:

Luckily F1 isn't about artistic impression or Alonso would win it hands down every season.

[Whyzars]

Sure sure, and by today's race Vettel is better by about 4 kilometers. :rolleyes:

Luckily F1 isn't about artistic impression or Alonso would win it hands down every season.

Point taken. Vettel/Red Bull were about 4 kms in front of Alonso/Ferrari but I still maintain that Alonso is the best driver on the grid. Obviously its hard to quantify but Alonso does do a fine artistic impression of a multiple WDC. :)

Responding to Daniel sent the thread a little off topic.


My original view stands in that KERS is being charged up at the start of a race. It is an energy recovery system and there is no energy to recover until the race starts.

Are there safeguards to monitor KERS. Are teams able to "super juice" the KERS system specifically for the start of a race? Would the stewards know if this was happening?

[truefan72]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

KERS being available off the start ensured that a Ferrari injected itself into the front of this Grand Prix in Spain, effectively destroying Webber's race and cost us any chance of seeing a battle involving both Red Bulls.

Yep, KERS is a peach.

you should direct your frustration to RBR and Newey not KERS
they are given the same presets as everyone and chose not to make KERS a functional component of their cars

[Whyzars]

you should direct your frustration to RBR and Newey not KERS
they are given the same presets as everyone and chose not to make KERS a functional component of their cars

No frustration. This is a general observation on the KERS rules and how it is being used or not used.

This is not about what happened today although today does illustrate one of the shortcomings of KERS.

[slowDan]

Seems I was wrong about charging on the warm-up lap then. Vettel mentioned changing the batteries and charging them up just before the start as well. Not that it helped much! :p :

[truefan72]

No frustration. This is a general observation on the KERS rules and how it is being used or not used.

This is not about what happened today although today does illustrate one of the shortcomings of KERS.

I repeat, it is not a shortcoming of kers but a shortcoming of Red Bull Racing
changing the entire rules to fit your particular driver/team's self inflicted situation and then passing off that problem as being a KERS shortcoming is fairly myopic view of things IMO and you are well no your way in becoming an F1 team manager ;)

[ioan]

... but I still maintain that Alonso is the best driver on the grid.

And how is that he didn't manage to beat his rookie team mate in 2007? So much about being the best.

FFW 4 years and Alonso can't hold a candle to Vettel and Hamilton anymore. His 6 tenths have evaporated and his great development skills are yet to be seen for the first time. I'll go as far as pointing out that Alonso's skill = Renault mass damper.

[Whyzars]

I repeat, it is not a shortcoming of kers but a shortcoming of Red Bull Racing
changing the entire rules to fit your particular driver/team's self inflicted situation and then passing off that problem as being a KERS shortcoming is fairly myopic view of things IMO and you are well no your way in becoming an F! team manager ;)

My liver has enough trouble handling its current workload. :)

I started this thread before the race and it was in no way prescient. We have all seen the exact same incidents many times before. KERS was supposed to be all sorted and agreed for this year but it appears that games may still be being played.

I'm not really a fan of KERS but its here now and failures should be treated like a failure in any other major component. How do you think teams would respond to a 2 spot grid penalty for a KERS failure because that is probably what's going to be needed?

[ioan]

How do you think teams would respond to a 2 spot grid penalty for a KERS failure because that is probably what's going to be needed?

They will completely remove it?
How can you penalize someone for the failure of a part that is not mandatory?!

[Daniel]

My liver has enough trouble handling its current workload. :)

I started this thread before the race and it was in no way prescient. We have all seen the exact same incidents many times before. KERS was supposed to be all sorted and agreed for this year but it appears that games may still be being played.

I'm not really a fan of KERS but its here now and failures should be treated like a failure in any other major component. How do you think teams would respond to a 2 spot grid penalty for a KERS failure because that is probably what's going to be needed?

Why should they be penalised? Should Force India be penalised for having a car which doesn't enable Paul to win a race?

You're on cloud cuckoo.....

[steveaki13]

Alonso can't hold a candle to Vettel and Hamilton anymore. His 6 tenths have evaporated and his great development skills are yet to be seen for the first time. I'll go as far as pointing out that Alonso's skill = Renault mass damper.

I would still say Fernando is one of the top 5 drivers on the grid, and on his day he can be better than the others, but I don't think in my Opinion Alonso is actually the best driver on the Grid anymore.

I think Sebastian Vettel and Lewis Hamilton are the two best in the world (which one is best I can't quite decide).

I think those two are a step ahead of the next level of drivers.

[Whyzars]

They will completely remove it?
How can you penalize someone for the failure of a part that is not mandatory?!

Easy. You tell the teams that if their KERS fails to engage or operate on a minimum number of laps they will suffer a grid penalty at the next race. This is the KERS that all the teams agreed on, all the teams standardised on. They stopped developments of alternative systems for this one, didn't they?

If the teams choose to leave their KERS on a bench then they kiss a couple of grid positions goodbye at the next race. The choice to not run KERS may not be a race winner but it is certainly not a good look when a non functioning KERS car is winning races.

I wonder if the "installation", or lack thereof, was the difference between any finishers on Sunday? F1 has chosen to go down the KERS path yet they allow a non-KERS car to win races without fear of penalty.

I started this thread questioning the wisdom of an energy recovery system using energy scavenged from outside of the race. KERS obviousy has other issues as well.

[Whyzars]

You're on cloud cuckoo.....

The view is nice from up here. :rolleyes:

[airshifter]

I don't at all mind the use of KERS at the race start. True it's an energy recovery system, but you can't expect it to maintain charge for weeks between races, and the reality is that it has nothing to do with "green" racing. If KERS had unlimited use restrictions on time it might actually affect lap times more since they could use KERS longer and thus possibly use less fuel as well. In either case the HP boost could affect lap times.

I can't see why a penalty should be imposed for KERS not working or being installed. There are many things legal but not required, and they don't impose a penalty if one breaks, or if certain teams don't use it.

[Whyzars]

I don't at all mind the use of KERS at the race start. True it's an energy recovery system, but you can't expect it to maintain charge for weeks between races, and the reality is that it has nothing to do with "green" racing. If KERS had unlimited use restrictions on time it might actually affect lap times more since they could use KERS longer and thus possibly use less fuel as well. In either case the HP boost could affect lap times.

I can't see why a penalty should be imposed for KERS not working or being installed. There are many things legal but not required, and they don't impose a penalty if one breaks, or if certain teams don't use it.


I just saw it as an anomaly that KERS was able to be juiced outside of the racing and allow a start specific charge to be introduced if a team so desired. The fact that Mark Webber happened to be swamped by a KERS car an hour after I posted made the thread seem like a whinge but it wasn't meant that way.

I actually think that KERS has great importance in that it influences the design of the car. It is big and bulky and making it work reliably may influence the podium and that is very significant.

If all of the top teams had working KERS installations, or not working for that matter, I would agree with you. However, there are cars with apparently chronic KERS problems and there should probably be a sanction against that situation continuing. If a KERS is overheating for instance, and fixing that involves a larger heat exchanger, then there may be an advantage being gained by a team not having a working KERS.

[Mia 01]

Penalty for mailfunction KERS?!

Perhaps ther best thing is to ban RBR alltoghether.

[Dave B]

Easy. You tell the teams that if their KERS fails to engage or operate on a minimum number of laps they will suffer a grid penalty at the next race. This is the KERS that all the teams agreed on, all the teams standardised on. They stopped developments of alternative systems for this one, didn't they?
Why? They have the option of not running it, just as you wouldn't penalise a team for never using 7th gear if they felt it would help for some strange reason. If other teams feel that removing KERS would be an advantage they are free to do so.

[Di Rishta]

Paul Di Restaurant just saying part of the pre race procedure is charging the KERS.
:)
I think he is right, cars covered more laps during practices and qualifying they are benefited by the more charging on KERS. There may need system to reset the KERS, no KERS at the start and energy stored are only as a result of racing.

[Dave B]

KERS is supposed to show that F1 can improve its green credentials. Why then deny the use of KERS during one of the most power-hungry phases of the race?

[Mark]

Indeed, in fact it's part of the tactics of the start, do you use all your KERS straight off the line? Do you keep some in reserve for later in the lap?

If we're talking about things which are 'false' in F1, then the 6.7288122 second limit for KERS is stupid, let's do it properly and let them use as much energy as they can manage to harvest.

But if a team decides it will be better off without KERS they are free not to use it. At least at the moment Neweys decision to sideline KERS seems to be paying off.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

KERS is an F1 technology that has its uses on road cars. If motor sport can continue to benefit road cars then it can be always be justified against its critics who think it's a noisy waste of fuel.

[steveaki13]

Indeed, in fact it's part of the tactics of the start, do you use all your KERS straight off the line? Do you keep some in reserve for later in the lap?
.

I think that was shown in Spain.

There was a replay of Hamilton's start for example with the KERS Graphic and he only used about 1/2 to 2/3 of his 1st lap KERS.

Then they showed Alonso's start and he just used all the KERs for Lap 1 in order to jump into the lead.

I assume he thought it better to use the 1st lap KERS for the start to help him gain those places as on lap 1 with battling and moving around maybe it isn't so key to hold onto some as it would be on a later lap.

I think thats the case anyway.

[Robinho]

I was always under the impression that they got the charge into the system on the warm up lap. there is plenty of energy going through the brakes as they have to get themnhot for the race, so the constant accelerating and braking during the lap charges the KERS. I see no rationale in the arguement that because they are not racing there is no energy to harvest?

I also don't think Spain was anything to do with poor KERS on the RBR's, they stayed ahead of the McLarens, it was just the "perfect" start that Alonso got, much of the gain was made immediately off the line and the pick up before KERS even came into play.

Anyway, IMO opinion its easy to charge KERS on the parade lap, therefore its fine to use it at the start

[The Black Knight]

I was always under the impression that they got the charge into the system on the warm up lap. there is plenty of energy going through the brakes as they have to get themnhot for the race, so the constant accelerating and braking during the lap charges the KERS. I see no rationale in the arguement that because they are not racing there is no energy to harvest?

I also don't think Spain was anything to do with poor KERS on the RBR's, they stayed ahead of the McLarens, it was just the "perfect" start that Alonso got, much of the gain was made immediately off the line and the pick up before KERS even came into play.

Anyway, IMO opinion its easy to charge KERS on the parade lap, therefore its fine to use it at the start

AFAIK, it's not as clear cut as they get the whole boost in one lap. The batteries are charged before the race, so off the grid everyone has a full charged KERS system whether they do a warm up lap or not. The energy recovery for one lap might not necessarily be enough for 6 seconds burst of KERS but the batteries would still be charged enough to counteract this. So yes they are recovering energy and recharging the battery but once they have used the battery for 6 seconds it doesn't mean the battery is dead, it just means that is all they were allowed to use in a single lap.

[Whyzars]

Anyway, IMO opinion its easy to charge KERS on the parade lap, therefore its fine to use it at the start

We have seen a couple of interesting things this year. Cars starting towards the back of the grid are finishing higher in the order then they would have in past seasons. Alonso's start in Spain was also very interesting.

KERS is not aiding overtaking like it used to and the fuel saving angle seems to be limited by the current rules. The "push to pass" function is now through the DRS so KERS could become primarily a launch tool. We could even see the regenerative charge components being dropped from some cars if that is seen as beneficial.

One way to stop KERS becoming a launch tool is to stop the charging of KERS from outside of the race and/or a penalty being imposed for KERS "failures".

[Daniel]

What a ridiculous idea. Why punish KERS failures? What does that achieve?

[Whyzars]

What a ridiculous idea. Why punish KERS failures? What does that achieve?

If teams setup their KERS as a launch tool that is only energised in the garage, how would you "encourage" them to recover energy on the track?

[Daniel]

If teams setup their KERS as a launch tool that is only energised in the garage, how would you "encourage" them to recover energy on the track?

Oh I dunno, perhaps the lack of 80bhp during the race is a penalty? Next you'll penalise drivers for getting flats.....

[Bagwan]

If teams setup their KERS as a launch tool that is only energised in the garage, how would you "encourage" them to recover energy on the track?

I get what you're saying , Whyzars , and the point of the thread , too .

Indeed , if the actual name of the system is "kinetic energy recovery system" , then that should be the energy it employs .
It should be the only energy it employs .

As such , they could simply have a meter on the car displaying the actual charge in the batteries , and check it is not above a certain level before the start of the formation lap .
Most teams equipped with KERS are having no issues with getting the units charged in a flying lap .
So , hopefully , they would be able to adjust to this anyway .



The failures on the Bulls are seen most likely to be the result of the tight packaging , but , you'd think it would have been sorted by now if it really was the case .
Newey is saying it's because they don't have the staff dedicated to it .
I would suggest that if he really saw it as a problem , it would have been dealt with by now .

We know the system must be adding some torque to braking in the slow-downs , as this is how it recovers energy .
I have read that this has been a very difficult issue with which to deal for the guys engineering the braking system .
And , we know the system to be intermittent at best , when sometimes it comes back on line after a long stint without .


Could it be that they don't recover energy as quickly , with smaller generators affecting the braking ? If that was coupled with a smaller battery , would it help that Bull handle as well as it does ?
I dunno , just a thought .

And , indeed , as Daniel says , 80hp is worth it .

But , somehow , it doesn't seem to suit Adrian .
Seems fishy .

[Whyzars]

Oh I dunno, perhaps the lack of 80bhp during the race is a penalty? Next you'll penalise drivers for getting flats.....

"A tyre failure will see a car return to the pits at the earliest opportunity. The driver is to be showered with chunks of hot rubber and road scum". Punctures are their own punishment. :)

The extra horses of KERS was an advantage in the past but KERS usefulness may now be reduced. The DRS seems to be providing a "push to pass" capability for far less inconvenience.

This could very well be the last year of the KERS if it is allowed to evolve into a glorified launch tool. Restricting its use at the start is one way to circumvent this. A sanction for a KERS "failure" or at least a definition of a minimum KERS objective is another and may show some level of committment to the technological direction.

The teams did ask for KERS inclusion in 2011 didn't they?

[Whyzars]

The failures on the Bulls are seen most likely to be the result of the tight packaging , but , you'd think it would have been sorted by now if it really was the case .
Newey is saying it's because they don't have the staff dedicated to it .
I would suggest that if he really saw it as a problem , it would have been dealt with by now .

He may not be seeing it as a problem. The 80bhp must not be worth the hassle for the limited time it is available.

Red Bull are winning the races without KERS and that is why there needs to be "encouragement" if KERS is to become a permanent fixture in F1. The usefulness of the KERS has been diminished by the new tyres and the DRS which was probably not foreseen at the start of the season.



Could it be that they don't recover energy as quickly , with smaller generators affecting the braking ? If that was coupled with a smaller battery , would it help that Bull handle as well as it does ?
I dunno , just a thought .

And , indeed , as Daniel says , 80hp is worth it .

But , somehow , it doesn't seem to suit Adrian .
Seems fishy .

If a team is paying lip service to KERS by running a trimmed down kit to advantage then I would think that a KERS based grid penalty would be the only way to discourage them continuing to do that.

The rules restricting the use of KERS should probably be lifted ASAP so that we can see the true capabilities of the different KERS installations. The KERS advantage has been lessened by the DRS and the new tyres so the competitive difference between the teams may very well be in their charging abilities.

The KERS system must have merit otherwise why would the teams ask for its inclusion?

[airshifter]

The rules restricting the use of KERS should probably be lifted ASAP so that we can see the true capabilities of the different KERS installations. The KERS advantage has been lessened by the DRS and the new tyres so the competitive difference between the teams may very well be in their charging abilities.

The KERS system must have merit otherwise why would the teams ask for its inclusion?

This part I can agree with. If we let the teams use KERS, let them use it as much as they want, with limits only on total power output and possibly voltages (for safety reasons). If they can manage to get 20 seconds of use per lap, let them do it.

From commentay here in the US, they seem to think that the troubles with the RB system are several. One seems to be cooling, which may account for a system that in theory is working but in race conditons they are limiting use. From what I've seen with racer input, the harvesting issue is something all teams and drivers must deal with. In essence they are trying to balance the generator output to the batteries with brake balance, and not using KERS will affect this since the generator can only provide limited charge once the battery level is up.

I still can't understand imposing a penalty on the way the system is used, or even if it is used at all. Similar to a tire failure, that extra 80HP is incentive enough for the teams to use it if they can get it into a reliable system.