FIA throws another hissy fit and clamps down on BLOWN DIFFUSERS.

[gloomyDAY]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91475

This is garbage. Seriously, what's the point of being innovative if you're going to get kicked to the curb? F1 needs to establish what kind of series it is because I'm getting tired of watching Formula 3 Deluxe.

Edit: Man, I'm pissed. Red Bull Racing has their whole car built around this concept and they get shafted. F***! Dude, this is bull****. This is so irresponsible by the FIA because they didn't pull this card when Brawn GP decided to bend the rules and race with a double diffuser.

[Sonic]

Same old, same old...

[gloomyDAY]

Breakaway series! :angryfire

[Mark]

Utterly stupid. Just recognise that a loophole in the regs has been found and close in the next set of regs in 2012, not this year!

[schmenke]

Another parameter for a driver to concentrate on...

"...under braking, the throttle input can now be no larger than 10 per cent of its maximum. ..."

The only wat to enforce this is to monitor the throttle telemetry of every car and if one is found to momentarily fluctuate to even 11% while under braking... infraction! Oh dear :erm:
Another sporting regulation not fully thought through, another reason why my interest in the sport has diminished more in the last two seasons than during the last ~20 years that I've been following it :mark:

[gloomyDAY]

Utterly stupid. Just recognise that a loophole in the regs has been found and close in the next set of regs in 2012, not this year!Right. Have everyone on a clean slate starting next year, and not move around the goal posts in the middle of the season. I really wouldn't have been upset, but they're out to get Red Bull and stop them from "dominating" this season.

Rubbish!

[Dave B]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91481

Ban delayed until after Spain.

[airshifter]

The usual FIA crap. I agree that any change should be at the end of a season. The teams have spent far too much time and money to come up with these ideas the FIA kills. Let them run it unless track speeds get too out of hand. For that matter if track speeds get that out of hand they could come up with a cost effective solution other than to affect the handling of the car.

[Koz]

Another parameter for a driver to concentrate on...

"...under braking, the throttle input can now be no larger than 10 per cent of its maximum. ..."

The only wat to enforce this is to monitor the throttle telemetry of every car and if one is found to momentarily fluctuate to even 11% while under braking... infraction! Oh dear :erm:
Another sporting regulation not fully thought through, another reason why my interest in the sport has diminished more in the last two seasons than during the last ~20 years that I've been following it :mark:

That has got to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard of.

[nigelred5]

So in other words, they are essentially clutching while standing on the gas and the brakes to keep the exhaust flowing over the aerodynamics, generating downforce when it would normally be diminishing.

[penagate]

Another parameter for a driver to concentrate on...

"...under braking, the throttle input can now be no larger than 10 per cent of its maximum. ..."

The only wat to enforce this is to monitor the throttle telemetry of every car and if one is found to momentarily fluctuate to even 11% while under braking... infraction! Oh dear :erm:
Another sporting regulation not fully thought through, another reason why my interest in the sport has diminished more in the last two seasons than during the last ~20 years that I've been following it :mark:

I would disregard the first Autosport article (link in the OP) as it is factually wrong.

High level sources have revealed that the FIA has written to teams informing them that from this weekend's Spanish Grand Prix they will no longer be allowed to continue flowing gases through the engine when the driver is not on the throttle.

It is understood the directive to the teams tells them that, under braking, the throttle input can now be no larger than 10 per cent of its maximum. Some outfits had been gaining aerodynamic benefit from keeping the throttle flow at 100 per cent under braking.
These two paragraphs disagree with each other. If the driver is not on the throttle, the throttle is closed: 0%. My understanding of the typical blown diffuser implementation is that the engine maps are altered to retard ignition and maintain fuel flow under the closed throttle condition. This fuel exits through the exhaust as a hot gas, which energises the diffuser airflow. This is all done to maintain a consistent centre of pressure between open-throttle and closed-throttle states; it's got nothing to do with braking. To the driver, this process is invisible.

The second article makes more sense:

However, a directive from the FIA clarified that teams were only allowed to use the throttle settings for increasing torque, not for 'aerodynamic performance' - which effectively banned them from keeping gases pushing through the diffuser off-throttle.

Perhaps this directive is the result of a "green" concern.
Remember this quote from the Australian GP:
Renault blown floor uses 10% more fuel (http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/renault-blown-floor-uses-10-more-fuel/)

“Since the RS27’s fuel consumption rate is extremely good, the Renault-equipped teams were able to burn 10% more fuel than normal during the Australian Grand Prix without running out of fuel, therefore giving more exhaust flow to its partners using the blown diffuser” a Renault release revealed.
This means that approximately 10% of the fuel consumed by Red Bull and Renault is spent sticking the car to the ground rather than propelling it, something that doesn't appear environmentally conscious.

I am not sure that this new directive will reduce consumption though as presumably the Renault teams will simply run richer engine mappings to gain some power and reduce engine temperature during the race — unless carrying 10% less fuel at the start of the race is of greater benefit.

[Hawkmoon]

So in other words, they are essentially clutching while standing on the gas and the brakes to keep the exhaust flowing over the aerodynamics, generating downforce when it would normally be diminishing.

I think it was the engine mapping that was doing it rather than the driver feathering the throttle under breaking but I could be wrong.

It's funny how the FIA decided to leave the double diffusers alone in 2009 and only ban them after the season and then in 2011 they decide an in-season ban is the way to go with blown diffusers. And by funny I mean pathetic.

[SGWilko]

It's funny how the FIA decided to leave the double diffusers alone in 2009 and only ban them after the season and then in 2011 they decide an in-season ban is the way to go with blown diffusers. And by funny I mean pathetic.

To ban the DD would require a complete floor re-design = money down the drain. Banning an engine map will simply result in the Red Bulls having to keep the DRS closed on some corners during practice and qualifying.....

[markabilly]

Need to ban those red bull cheaters before vettel scores too many points to lock up the WDC, or do some stripping!!!

First vettel cheats by drinking fake booze on a podium......and now this!!!

Mac is just as guilty as their engine has been sounding very strange on the brakes, so continuing in the historical tradition of the FIA, they should be also be severly punished. They probably stole the idea from red bull anyway

No, seriously..........and it is always better to wait to mid-season to upset the apple cat with such nonsense.

[AndyL]

Perhaps this directive is the result of a "green" concern.
Remember this quote from the Australian GP:
Renault blown floor uses 10% more fuel (http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/renault-blown-floor-uses-10-more-fuel/)

This means that approximately 10% of the fuel consumed by Red Bull and Renault is spent sticking the car to the ground rather than propelling it, something that doesn't appear environmentally conscious.

I suspect you're right that part of the motivation is wanting to appear more "green". But it is nothing more than appearance - in terms of burning fuel to generate downforce, the EBD is small beer compared to the fact that they're driving round in cars with a Cd of 0.9.

[Robinho]

they are only banning the trick electronics to provide exhaust gases to the blown diffusers when there is no throttle, not the blown diffusers themselves, i really don't see that it is that much of an issue, albeit some teams have had the system since last year and most have it now, it would seem sensible to write it out of the rules for next year, but i don't think banning it will be that much of a problem for the teams.

it would appear it will hit the renault teams hardest (Red Bull and Renault specifically) but in all likelihood it will only allow the lowest teams to gain half a second or so on the field when they all lose the system and perhaps bring Red Bull slightly closer to the field.

its nothing like the Double Diffuser situation (apart from being about diffusers) as you couldn't just remove the offending part, it was about redesigning large parts of the car and it had already been subject to protest and deemed legal. It was also a loophole that had existed for a number of years previously that no-one had used before, this is very much new technology developing on the fly.

[wedge]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91475

This is garbage. Seriously, what's the point of being innovative if you're going to get kicked to the curb? F1 needs to establish what kind of series it is because I'm getting tired of watching Formula 3 Deluxe.

The eternal paradox that is innovation and reducing the speeds of the cars.

Blown-over diffusers are not being banned. The ECU will be revised so you won't get ignition retardation. In other words it will work as they did in the mid-late 80s when DF would switch on/off at corner entry.

[F1boat]

I'm against penalising teams for being innovative. :(

[Dave B]

To clarify, there is currently no "ban":


Then last night, almost a week later, [Charlie Whiting] wrote to the teams again saying that the clampdown was on hold and that it would be discussed at the next Technical Working Group meeting, due to take place the week after the Canadian Grand Prix.

Source: http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/05/the-real-story-behind-the-fias-exhaust-clampdown/

So we'll have at least 3 more races with blown diffusers (Spain, Monaco and Canada); and even then it's not necessarily set in stone that there'll be any changes.

[truefan72]

just ridiculous

[Mark]

The FIA has a history of changing things mid season, e.g. the Bridgestone tyres which were 'too wide', the Renault mass damper etc, and it always comes across as them interfering with the championship outcome.

[SGWilko]

The FIA has a history of changing things mid season, e.g. the Bridgestone tyres which were 'too wide', the Renault mass damper etc, and it always comes across as them interfering with the championship outcome.

It was the Michelin's which were 'deemed' too wide.

[Robinho]

makes sense to me, they've allowed the "innovation" for a while (about a year) and it looks set to continue for a few more races yet, but as with all these things people catch up and the playing field levels, so those who have been clever and made an advantage from it have had their cake.

its also not the most sensible idea in the 1st place. Sure the blown diffusers themselves are a brilliant use of the waste exhaust gases, therefore are an efficient use of air previously lost. but with the engine overrun function, its not waste air being used, but additional exhaust gas that is only being used for the function of blowing the diffuser. Not the best use opf the engine and fuel, which are primarily there to power the car forward, not to provide extra gases when the throttle isn't being used.

I agree with James Allen on this one, it not efficient (unlike the base blown diffuser concept), and has zero relevance to any other application, be it on the road or elsewhere. best put a stop to it now or soon and let the teams spend the money on another new innovation, which they will

[truefan72]

makes sense to me, they've allowed the "innovation" for a while (about a year) and it looks set to continue for a few more races yet, but as with all these things people catch up and the playing field levels, so those who have been clever and made an advantage from it have had their cake.

its also not the most sensible idea in the 1st place. Sure the blown diffusers themselves are a brilliant use of the waste exhaust gases, therefore are an efficient use of air previously lost. but with the engine overrun function, its not waste air being used, but additional exhaust gas that is only being used for the function of blowing the diffuser. Not the best use opf the engine and fuel, which are primarily there to power the car forward, not to provide extra gases when the throttle isn't being used.

I agree with James Allen on this one, it not efficient (unlike the base blown diffuser concept), and has zero relevance to any other application, be it on the road or elsewhere. best put a stop to it now or soon and let the teams spend the money on another new innovation, which they will

I really do hate when innovation gets stifled. IMO the FIA has no business regulating the blown diffuser situation.
and I don't agree with Allen either. I don't care if it doesn't have real world applications. That is not why I watch F1.

Teams should be left alone to develop their own stuff and if it falls within the guidelines then so be it.
I have zero interest in watching a completely homologous series, zero!

[BDunnell]

But the financial argument does, or at least should, hold some water, surely? F1 cannot continue to be so profligate.

[cjent]

Innovation is self-policing. When the cost factor exceeds the benefit the manufacturers won't do it.

[52Paddy]

Innovating ideas should not be shifted on the basis of a team running away into the lead of the championship. Openly or not, there is a probability that previous (and perhaps this) technical revamps and revised legality of 'innovating parts' has been done on (or at least influenced by) that basis. If other teams need to catch up with the leaders, for example Red Bull, then it is their job to come up with an idea which, of course, they eventually will. Look at Force India. A midfield to back of the pack team in 2009 (think it was that year) who raked up a second place finish at Spa and another great result at Monza due to the way their cars worked on those fast tracks. It is groundwork like this that teams build on to improve their results and I personally believe that the FIA INTRUDING on that mechanism is unfair on the winning teams, who have put effort and thought into coming out with the great ideas that they do.

The arguments regarding environment, finance and safety are far more solid. Unfortunately, the way I see it (and call me cynical if you please) these reasons are used, at times, to blotch over the true reason which I've stated in the previous paragraph.

[F1boat]

I don't buy the financial factor. From what I read "Red Bull" doesn't have bigger budget than Ferrari or McLaren-Mercedes, yet they come with good concept. So it's not only about the money. Well, if for other teams is expensive to REDESIGN their cars... well, they won't do it, and Red Bull will rightly benefit from their effectiveness.

[Robinho]

coming up with a concept is cheap, designing your car around something is also far cheaper than trying to copy and adapt your existing design to make the best of it, i'd wager that the rest of the grid spent far far more money trying to get the F-duct working on their cras than McLaren did coming up with the idea and deiosgning the car to suit. The same goes for Red Bull and the off throttle blown diffuser, ideas cost nothing, innovation is great, but it can get out of control when everyone spends a fiortune copying it. As it stands most of the top teams have a credible version of the system, so the advantage of the innovation is no longer there, so it makes sense that Red Bull have had their competitive advantage from the system and now others are catching up it can be banned without penalising the innovator.

I still have the opinion that the blown diffuser is genius and great use of an otherwise waste product, but the off throttle map way of keeping the system "on" is just wasteful.

An easier way to police this would be do tighten the fuel limits so you can't afford to burn 10-30% extra fuel on anything other than making the car go forwards.

[SGWilko]

An easier way to police this would be ......

....... to place FIA mandated and monitored flow sensores at the exhaust exit and measure it in conjunction with throttle position - even Charlie could manage to police that successfully*

*probably ;)

[555-04Q2]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91475

This is garbage. Seriously, what's the point of being innovative if you're going to get kicked to the curb? F1 needs to establish what kind of series it is because I'm getting tired of watching Formula 3 Deluxe.

Edit: Man, I'm pissed. Red Bull Racing has their whole car built around this concept and they get shafted. F***! Dude, this is bull****. This is so irresponsible by the FIA because they didn't pull this card when Brawn GP decided to bend the rules and race with a double diffuser.

They should change the name from Formula One to Formula Regulated...

[SGWilko]

They should change the name from Formula One to Formula Regulated...

Formula rules for One and different rules for the others.......

[555-04Q2]

:laugh:

[ioan]

It was bound to happen at some point, I just hopped they will use some common sense and do it after the season's end.

[airshifter]

Interesting update that I got on SpeedTV watching practice for Spain.

They state that the way this all started was as a technical note for rules clarification. The draft by Charlie Whiting stated (according to them) that by introducing the engine to manage aerodynamics the teams have breached regulations already in place. In effect they claim he has stated that by having the engine involved in aero matters that there is a movable aerodynamic device. This coming from an organization that now allows DRS, a movable aerodynamic device.

I'd like to see the actual email/letter/memo word for word if anyone comes across it. Until then, this entire thing smells of mass damper to me.

[gloomyDAY]

One of the teams went ahead and snitched on Red Bull.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91554

According to this article, there is a snake on the paddock that stuck is ugly head where it didn't belong. Another thing I want to point out is that nowhere in my original post did I ever state that the blown diffuser would be banned, but rather that the rules on its use would be more stringent. Still think it's bull****!

[Robinho]

there have always been rules in F1, they've always been subject to change and they've always been regulated, there is nothing new here. I agree the timing isn't great, but i can't see it having a massive effect on the running order

[truefan72]

One of the teams went ahead and snitched on Red Bull.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91554

According to this article, there is a snake on the paddock that stuck is ugly head where it didn't belong. Another thing I want to point out is that nowhere in my original post did I ever state that the blown diffuser would be banned, but rather that the rules on its use would be more stringent. Still think it's bull****!

one team comes to mind...williams

[Ranger]

one team comes to mind...williams

I would put money on them too.

[ioan]

Interesting update that I got on SpeedTV watching practice for Spain.

They state that the way this all started was as a technical note for rules clarification. The draft by Charlie Whiting stated (according to them) that by introducing the engine to manage aerodynamics the teams have breached regulations already in place. In effect they claim he has stated that by having the engine involved in aero matters that there is a movable aerodynamic device. This coming from an organization that now allows DRS, a movable aerodynamic device.

I'd like to see the actual email/letter/memo word for word if anyone comes across it. Until then, this entire thing smells of mass damper to me.

This enforces my views on Charlie. What a tool.

[ioan]

one team comes to mind...williams

Yep. They should get their sh!t together or leave F1!
It's so boring that since they started under performing they are doing more whining and complaining then all the other teams together + jumping boats all the time! :down:

[ShiftingGears]

This enforces my views on Charlie. What a tool.

Indeed, completely obscene.

[TMorel]

one team comes to mind...williams

Interesting comment from Charlie that if a Cosworth powered team were to lodge a protest then the rest of the field would be excluded.
If the other teams have pushed it so far that the grid would be in breach of the regulations and thrown out then I think maybe the FIA are right to pull the reigns in.
Also I noticed he specifically mentioned the Renaults mass dampers as a past example of taking things too far.

[ioan]

one team comes to mind...williams

I would put money on them too.

Confirmed:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91617

Now they claim they just want to clarify it, yeah, sure. :\

[N4D13]

Confirmed:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91617

Now they claim they just want to clarify it, yeah, sure. :\
Well, it's nothing new. As far as I know, almost every time that a team wants to complain about something that another team is doing, they would ask FIA something by the lines of "could we use a blown diffuser like Renault's?". Williams' stance is not so different, is it?

[Robinho]

why spend money developing something that might get banned when you can get it banned first and then spend your money on something else as the others all lose some performance. Not exactly the nicest way to operate but we'd be fooling ourselves to think that any of the teams wouldn't do exactly the same if presented with the opportunity.

[ioan]

Well, it's nothing new. As far as I know, almost every time that a team wants to complain about something that another team is doing, they would ask FIA something by the lines of "could we use a blown diffuser like Renault's?". Williams' stance is not so different, is it?

What's teh point of doing that when 80% of the grid uses it already? To have it banned maybe?

[ioan]

why spend money developing something that might get banned when you can get it banned first...

Fair play? No wait we are talking about F1 teams here.

[Robinho]

nail. hit. head.

[Dave B]

Colin Kolles has just told the BBC that "it is clear that all the cars [with blown exhausts] are illegal", and that if the situation isn't changed for Monaco Hispania "will have no choice but to protest" at some stage over the weekend.

[Mark]

The Hispania boss is saying that if hot blown diffusers aren't banned before Monaco then he'll put in an official protest. He says the other cars are illegal.

[steveaki13]

Yer I just saw that.

He said the reason they wouldn't protest today is because they weren't involved in any sporting action today.

[ioan]

The Hispania boss is saying that if hot blown diffusers aren't banned before Monaco then he'll put in an official protest. He says the other cars are illegal.

Hispania does know something about how to build a F1 car? Do they even understand how it works?
Red Bull should turn up the wick in Q1 in Monaco and leave HRT outside the 107% and see what they protest then.

It is laughable if the worst team, by a margin, on the grid starts complaining that the others are better because they are using illegal solutions.

[ioan]

Yer I just saw that.

He said the reason they wouldn't protest today is because they weren't involved in any sporting action today.

They are barely involved in any racing on any week end anyway.

[CNR]

the blown diffuser cannot be done with a cosworth engine and that is why they complained - Tom Clarkson on one lastnight

[Dave B]

I wonder what odds I can get on Barrichello winning at Monaco (after appeals). :D

[Mark]

The likes of blown diffusers, f-ducts etc don't benefit F1 as once every team has them it's a zero sum game, so they do need to be removed but the teams which have them should of course be allowed their single season of benefit - such as been the way in F1.

[CNR]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/minnows-plan-protest-over-illegal-cars-2288185.html

"I think that if this is not going to be stopped before Monaco then we have no other choice. This is illegal and it brings the other teams a huge advantage."

Kolles, was angry because he had abandoned plans for HRT's own version of a "blown diffuser" in light of the imminent ban.

[Koz]

What a bunch of twats.

[F1boat]

FIA has to give HRT a one lap advantage over the rest - they will still manage to lose :D

[Big Ben]

I understand them. They have ordered all those wood panels, hammers and nails to build their own diffuser... what are they going to do with them now?

[SGWilko]

I understand them. They have ordered all those wood panels, hammers and nails to build their own diffuser... what are they going to do with them now?

HRT strike me as the kind of folk who would build their factory in the sand...... ;)

[Mia 01]

They are not making many friends among the FOTA members.

Except Williams perhaps.

[SGWilko]

They are not making many friends among the FOTA members.

Except Williams perhaps.

Indeed - if your only hope of finishing in p5 and p6 is to ban all the cars with an EBD, then there is no place in F1 for you.