Car vs Public Transport

[Mark]

It's interesting to do a comparison now and again between cars and public transport to see how they compare. I work at University of York and usually stay in a hotel just outside Leeds (as it's a long way to go home!). I always drive there by car, but for reasons I won't bore you with I couldn't use my car this time, so here's a comparison of the same trip by car and by public transport.

Car
46 miles
Diesel cost = £6.44
Time taken
Out = 30 minutes
Back = 25 minutes
Total = 55 minutes

Public Transport
Bus to York station = £2
Train to Leeds = £11
Walk to hotel
--
Walk to station
Train to York = £11.90
Bus to University = £1.50
Total cost = £26.40
Time taken
Out = 1 hour 45 minutes
Back = 2 hours
Total = 3 hours 45 minutes

To summarise
By car takes 55 minutes in total and costs £6.44 (plus milage costs etc but most of the costs of the car are fixed)
By public transport takes 3 hours 45 minutes in total and costs £26.40

Of course you could say it's not a fair comparison because if I wasn't using my car I wouldn't have chosen that hotel to stay in, which I guess is the point that the car gives you the flexibility.

[Sonic]

Interesting;

I am currently undertaking frequent trips to hospital to visit my Mum, and I have done the journey both by car and by rail. The hospital is a stone's throw from the station, and we live within a mile of a mainline station to London so a direct comparison is possible.

It's a 77 mile round trip in the car, travelling into south London (just missing the congestion zone). Based on my average fuel consumption on the run it costs me £11.80 in fuel and takes 1 hour and ten minutes in each direction. Parking would be a consideration (£3 to park near the hospital) but we have a parking permit as Mum is a long term resident, but to be fair I will add that on to the trips cost.

The train costs me £13.50 cheap day return, but as I take my children too the total trip is £21.30. Travel time is different both ways; outbound 1 hour 33; return 1 hour 52 (there's an extra change on the way home), making the total trip (including the walk to and from home) just shy of four hours.

So in summary, the car takes half as long, and is at least a third cheaper.

[janneppi]

It's interesting to do a comparison now and again between cars and public transport to see how they compare.

Of course you could say it's not a fair comparison because if I wasn't using my car I wouldn't have chosen that hotel to stay in, which I guess is the point that the car gives you the flexibility.

IMO a daily commute to work is one of the most repetitive trips you can do, so there isn't much need for flexibility.

I have it pretty good. My commute is 17-20 km depending on what I use
Two busses that go west Vantaa to East Vantaa without a need to switch in the middle. It costs 45Eur/per month,a about 30% less than petrol If I drove my car. It does take me 55 minutes by buss(icluding 13 minutes of walking to and from from bus stops), compared to 25-35 minutes by car. But that's something I can live with, especially since the drive back home is hell in the ring 3 traffic.

And since it's summer now, I try to ride my bicycle to work 3-4 times a week. :)

[555-04Q2]

Can't comment cause our public transport system is virtually non existent :(

We have a choice though, drive or walk :p :

[schmenke]

Rough figures:

By car:
Daily round trip: ~70kms, 90 minutes (approx. 30 minutes for the morning commute and about double that during the rush hour crawl home).
Daily fuel cost, based on ~$120.00 per month and 20 working days in a month: $6.00.

Public transportation:
Daily round trip: ~3 hours (90 minutes each way).
Monthly transit pass: $84.00, or $4.20 daily.

To summarise
By car takes 90 minutes in total and costs $6.00.
By public transport takes 3 hours in total and costs $4.20
In other words, it costs me $1.80 to save 90 minutes of commute time. Works for me.

[ioan]

Even though I live in a city with great public transportation the car still wins hands down.

Daily round trip by car 50 minutes, cost 1.50 - 2.00
Daily round trip by public transportation 90 minutes, cost 4.40.

I wonder why they are still expecting people to take the slow and overpriced public transportation?!

PS: If you factor in the comfort then it is even more critical.

[Daniel]

I'm slightly surprised by what I found out!

Car
36 miles
petrol cost = £4.45 (car is doing 50 mpg+ as most of the journey is dual carriageway. On winter tyres I reckon I could be pushing 60!!!!)
Time taken
Out = 30 minutes
Back = 30 minutes
Total = 60 minutes

Public Transport
Train station to the closest station near work = £7.10 for a return ticket
Walk to train station would be about 30 minutes, the train ride about 20 minutes and the walk to work about 40-45 so not really doable.

Quite impressed with the cost though, I might do it one day just to see what it's like and at least it's an option if the car needs to go in for a service :)

When I lived in Australia and I didn't have much to do with my times in the evening I used to get my mum to drop me off in the morning at the train station, take the train into the city, walk to work (20-25 mins walk), take the bus most of the way home and then walk for about 50 minutes. But now I'd much rather have the extra god knows how long at home rather than spending all that time walking!

[J4MIE]

I live in quite a rural area and it is a shade under 40 miles to drive to work, however as I am still not yet a car owner I can't drive very often!

By car:
Leave home at leisurely 7:45am, into work for just before 9am, cost is about £9.50 for the return journey. Leaving at 5pm I can arrive home just as the 6pm news starts (have never got home before it ;( ).

By bus:
Currently I throw myself out the door to catch the bus at 6am! :( This will get into Edinburgh city centre at 7.20 or close to, then it's a local bus which takes around 25 mins to get to my office, cost is £45 a month (about £1.50 a day).
I used to get the "rush hour" bus at 6.49am however due to traffic it's not guaranteed to reach Edinburgh by the time I am meant to start work so I am forced to get the earlier one........ hence I have started going for a 40 minute swim each morning!
I get the 5.45pm bus to return home by 7.20pm which makes for a long day.

So:

Car takes about 2 hours return, cost £9.50 a day.
Bus takes 3 hours + 55 mins return and is £6.50 ish a day. (weekly bus ticket £24 + £45 a month). However, despite having free wifi it doesn't always work and even if it does, if the bus stops and switches off the engine at the park and ride which we pass through, it turns off! Also lack of heating in winter and lack of AC in summer is not too pleasant, as is having to sit next to annoying/smelly/noisy/fidgety/MOANING! fellow passengers and it is often full of rubbish at the end of the day. So despite it costing less I would FAR rather have a car, which also means you can stop at a shop and get a snack if I so wish, or turn the stereo up, or indeed stay late in the evening and not worry about missing the last bus home at 8.45 - and I can't sleep in and miss my car. Also during the Edinburgh festival it is extremely difficult to get a space on the bus home in the evening so I have sometimes to wait another hour for the next one which is just depressing - and also (sorry) but OAPs with their free bus passes usually take up most of the space especially on Wednesdays! They shouldn't be allowed to use it in evening rush hour!!! :angryfire

I need to save up for a car.............

[schmenke]

...I need to save up for a car.............

Or move :p :

[J4MIE]

Yeah, that is another option! :eek:

[yodasarmpit]

I live about 8 miles from work, so by car I leave the house at 8:10am, arriving at work by 8:30am. Return journey, 17:00pm getting home for 17:30pm at the latest.

Cost per day would be in the region of £3.

If I were to use public transport, I would need 2 buses, or a bus and a train.
Two buses would be the easiest, leave home at 7 am, walk to bus stop, get bus to next town, wait for connecting bus, get second bus to work and walk 1/4 mile to office.

Cost per day would be in the region of £6


Summary:
Car cost £3
Car time 50 minutes

Bus cost £6
Bus time unto 3 hours.

Easy choice for me.

[airshifter]

Face facts people, most have cars to make life easier, not to save money.

If anyone factored in the cost of the car, registrations, inspections, insurance, property taxes and all maintenance the cost of a commute would be much greater. With public transportation the cost of the trips is the cost of the tickets involved and some extra time, but you don't pay insurance on the time. ;)

[janneppi]

A question to those who suffer from bad public transport, was it a factor when choosing where you buy/rent your house? I moved to Vantaa few months ago and every location I looked at the first thing I did was to look at how easy it is to get to work via bus or train. Some appartments didn't make that cut.

I don't know if I should tell you, but today I drove to work in my civic. :D i made some lame excuse to myself that *I need* to make a stop outside my commute.

[anthonyvop]

A question to those who suffer from bad public transport, was it a factor when choosing where you buy/rent your house? I moved to Vantaa few months ago and every location I looked at the first thing I did was to look at how easy it is to get to work via bus or train. Some appartments didn't make that cut.

I don't know if I should tell you, but today I drove to work in my civic. :D i made some lame excuse to myself that *I need* to make a stop outside my commute.

Public transportation never crossed my mind.
My time is too important and my needs much too eclectic to be saddled with using an inefficient and uncompromising form of transportation like Public Transport.

I can't even remember the last time I left my house in the morning, went to my office then returned home without making at least one stop, detour or trip.

[Rollo]

I live 48.1km away from where I work. There and back; five days a week would be 480km/week.
The Peugeot does 7.5L/100km and so would take 36L to do the trip.
At a pump price of $1.51/L this morning it would cost $54.36 a week in petrol.

Public Transport costs which include trains and buses cost $48/week.
It's $6.36 cheaper to take public transport.
The break even point would have been when petrol cost $1.34/L

This is what part of my trip to work would look like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znVUuH7dhSc

[bluegem280]

From the cost pov, car vs public transport is nearly the same. If we compare the cost spent for trip on bus vs cost spent for fuel on car, we may find driving own car is cheaper. But if we include amount of money for buying the car, its maintenance cost, insurance etc we may find driving own car isn't cheap either.

Traveling on bus or train on long distance trip help us from being overly tired, we may meet different persons, some of which may give us benefits. We can make them friends, friendship has its benefits...
Driving own car saves times, more flexibility, we can drive alone or make sure someone in the front passenger seat is someone we like... :)

[Roamy]

Work out of the house

Car = 0
Public trans = 0
Wine = 10 bucks
Should get a freaking real job and take the bus :)

[Daniel]

Public transportation never crossed my mind.
My time is too important and my needs much too eclectic to be saddled with using an inefficient and uncompromising form of transportation like Public Transport.

I can't even remember the last time I left my house in the morning, went to my office then returned home without making at least one stop, detour or trip.

I think it depends on how good public transport is in your area. Back in Australia public transport was FAR cheaper than driving for me and not much worse in terms of time. I would have been silly to drive in every day. Here in the UK, it's just never been convenient to take a bus or train so I haven't.

[MrJan]

I'm slightly surprised by what I found out!

Car
36 miles
petrol cost = £4.45 (car is doing 50 mpg+ as most of the journey is dual carriageway. On winter tyres I reckon I could be pushing 60!!!!)
Time taken
Out = 30 minutes
Back = 30 minutes
Total = 60 minutes

Public Transport
Train station to the closest station near work = £7.10 for a return ticket
Walk to train station would be about 30 minutes, the train ride about 20 minutes and the walk to work about 40-45 so not really doable.

Quite impressed with the cost though, I might do it one day just to see what it's like and at least it's an option if the car needs to go in for a service :)


Could always take a push bike on the train, would cut down the time quite a bit at each end.

What a surprise that most people find the public transport route to cost more than a car and generally take quite a bit longer. What MPs in Westminster will never understand is that, for most of us, public transport simply isn't good enough or flexible enough to work. Unless you live somewhere with a decent metro system there really isn't much point in bothering.

I just looked on traveline and apparently I need to leave home at 05:20 to get to work 30 minutes early (after 3 buses and a bit of walking). Going home is a bit better, can leave work at normal time and catch 2 buses (plus the walking) and get home for half six. I have no idea how much this costs, and have no desire to, because I have a car and can leave home at 07:30 to get to work for 8, and can be home before 6 in the evening. Let's face it, 3 hours of commuting (and an extra 30 minutes of work) compared to 1 if I take the car just isn't worth it, even if I do pay £1600 a year for fuel, £600 for insurance, £200 for tax and general wear & tear.

[Daniel]

I do pay £1600 a year for fuel, £600 for insurance, £200 for tax and general wear & tear.

How many miles was that? Last year I spent £1700 on fuel for 15,689 miles, spent £400 on insurance and £30 on tax. 13p per mile isn't bad! :) Doesn't include tyres but in 25k miles I've not gone through even half a set yet.

[MrJan]

Think it was a while back that I worked that out, based on 34 miles a day for 48 weeks (4 weeks holiday) at 30mpg. So doing 170 miles a week, 8160 a year, equates to 272 gallons (1235 litres) at £1.30/l = £1605. Of course I actually do more miles as that only allows for my commute and not private or work mileage (covered at 40p/mile). According to the thing I've got on my phone I've been getting 17.7p/mile on fuel alone since the tail end of July last year (at which time fuel was only £1.15 :eek: ) I've had 1,690 litres at an average of £1.22, so thats over 2 grand in 10 months. And yes I know that 26 year old blokes shouldn't be interested in this type of thing.

[Daniel]

Think it was a while back that I worked that out, based on 34 miles a day for 48 weeks (4 weeks holiday) at 30mpg. So doing 170 miles a week, 8160 a year, equates to 272 gallons (1235 litres) at £1.30/l = £1605. Of course I actually do more miles as that only allows for my commute and not private or work mileage (covered at 40p/mile). According to the thing I've got on my phone I've been getting 17.7p/mile on fuel alone since the tail end of July last year (at which time fuel was only £1.15 :eek: ) I've had 1,690 litres at an average of £1.22, so thats over 2 grand in 10 months. And yes I know that 26 year old blokes shouldn't be interested in this type of thing.

Meh, I think it's an inceredibly sensible and prudent thing to do, to keep track of where your money goes

I use www.fuelly.com (http://www.fuelly.com) to keep track of my fuel consumption (hence knowing exactly how much I've spent last year and how many miles!!!!) and it's dead easy to use. Also gives you an idea of how your car is doing compared to other similar cars :)

http://www.fuelly.com/driver/306maxi/500

If someone wants to just blindly put fuel in and pay their money I guess that's their choice :)

[Iain]

If someone wants to just blindly put fuel in and pay their money I guess that's their choice :)

Which is what I do. I always make sure I get the best price per litre of course, but apart from that there's no point in counting the money because I need to use the car at the end of the day. We do have a train station in my village now, but it doesn't run early enough for my very early dayshift starts sadly.

[Mark]

That's the thing. With public transport you have to adapt your life to what it allows. Whereas with private transport it apapts to what you want to do and when.

[Daniel]

Which is what I do. I always make sure I get the best price per litre of course, but apart from that there's no point in counting the money because I need to use the car at the end of the day. We do have a train station in my village now, but it doesn't run early enough for my very early dayshift starts sadly.

But if you keep track then you know how much it's costing you and you can make better informed decisions like getting another car on the basis of saving fuel and so on.

[Mark]

I know what Iain is saying, it doesn't really matter exactly how much it is, if you need to use your car to get to work then you just pay!

Where is does come in useful is the likes of "Well it cost me £30 in fuel to go to the Lake District last time, can I afford it this weekend?"

[janneppi]

I'll continue with my anti-car rantings for a while. :D
Drove back from work, of the 17km, of which 10 was done in first or second gear @800rpm trying not to get too close to the lemming in front of me. Absolute horror to drive there, personal liberties my ass, youre stuck there just like everyone else. :D
I value my own sanity too much to drive that volunterily.

[Iain]

But if you keep track then you know how much it's costing you and you can make better informed decisions like getting another car on the basis of saving fuel and so on.

Each to their own. :) I know where the cheapest fuel is and I know I can get at least 500 miles to a tank which will do me the best part of two weeks, so I don't see the need to do lots of calculations personally. I didn't buy my car because it was cheap to run, it was because I wanted that particular car.

[Daniel]

I know what Iain is saying, it doesn't really matter exactly how much it is, if you need to use your car to get to work then you just pay!

Where is does come in useful is the likes of "Well it cost me £30 in fuel to go to the Lake District last time, can I afford it this weekend?"

I agree, but sometimes people can become a bit blasé about things when they're not counting the costs. If you're counting the costs you could come to the realisation that it's cheaper to work at the chippie down the street than drive 50 miles each way to work each day. issues with a car can also show themselves in in an increase or decrease in economy :)

[Daniel]

Each to their own. :) I know where the cheapest fuel is and I know I can get at least 500 miles to a tank which will do me the best part of two weeks, so I don't see the need to do lots of calculations personally. I didn't buy my car because it was cheap to run, it was because I wanted that particular car.


I know what you mean. With fuelly you don't need to do any calculations ;) Simply put in your odometer reading, the number of litres and if you want to, the price of the fuel and it works it all out for you. Plus I feel, it also encourages you to be more economical which certainly isn't a bad thing :)

[MrJan]

I'll continue with my anti-car rantings for a while. :D
Drove back from work, of the 17km, of which 10 was done in first or second gear @800rpm trying not to get too close to the lemming in front of me. Absolute horror to drive there, personal liberties my ass, youre stuck there just like everyone else. :D
I value my own sanity too much to drive that volunterily.

My drive to work is 17 miles and isn't in a city, so most of it is actual driving. The first 7 miles is on a motorway so that's done at about 75mph, some of it is in slow traffic but other times you can really let the engine sing, all the way to 8000rpm :D I also get to listen to music, alter the temperature to suit me and take whatever route I feel like.
I value my own sanity too much to do that on public transport ;)

[Daniel]

My drive to work is 17 miles and isn't in a city, so most of it is actual driving. The first 7 miles is on a motorway so that's done at about 75mph, some of it is in slow traffic but other times you can really let the engine sing, all the way to 8000rpm :D I also get to listen to music, alter the temperature to suit me and take whatever route I feel like.
I value my own sanity too much to do that on public transport

Ditto :) Though I tend to leave with plenty of time spare and just drive at a leisurely 55-60mph :p There's something deeply unrewarding about flogging a small engined car :mark: If I was in Caroline's car I'd do 75-80 most of the way though and fuel consumption would be about double the 500's :p

[Iain]

I agree, but sometimes people can become a bit blasé about things when they're not counting the costs. If you're counting the costs you could come to the realisation that it's cheaper to work at the chippie down the street than drive 50 miles each way to work each day. issues with a car can also show themselves in in an increase or decrease in economy


I know what you mean. With fuelly you don't need to do any calculations Simply put in your odometer reading, the number of litres and if you want to, the price of the fuel and it works it all out for you. Plus I feel, it also encourages you to be more economical which certainly isn't a bad thing

Life's too short to be economical all the time. Be blase, pee into the wind, stare down the barrel of the gun. :p : Besides, the way the UK is at the moment, we don't all have the luxury of choosing where we work, so we just have to make do and put up with the location and the costs.



I value my own sanity too much to do that on public transport ;)

Same here. The same applies to when I need to give people a lift. I really don't like doing that, as I like my own personal space at the end of a long day spent with other people. I can listen to whatever I want, have all the windows down if I like, it's up to me. :D

Btw, has anyone noticed that if you quote Daniel too much, you have to remove his smilies because he uses too many of them and it's over the limit? ;)

[Daniel]

Life's too short to be economical all the time. Be blase, pee into the wind, stare down the barrel of the gun. :p : Besides, the way the UK is at the moment, we don't all have the luxury of choosing where we work, so we just have to make do and put up with the location and the costs.



Same here. The same applies to when I need to give people a lift. I really don't like doing that, as I like my own personal space at the end of a long day spent with other people. I can listen to whatever I want, have all the windows down if I like, it's up to me. :D

Btw, has anyone noticed that if you quote Daniel too much, you have to remove his smilies because he uses too many of them and it's over the limit? ;)

I have the same problem all the time with other people *mark smiley* (happy? *pokey out tongue smiley*)

[MrJan]

Ditto :) Though I tend to leave with plenty of time spare and just drive at a leisurely 55-60mph :p There's something deeply unrewarding about flogging a small engined car :mark:

Maybe on the motorway, but once on an A-road it's nice to have the valves bouncing on the bonnet :D

[Daniel]

Maybe on the motorway, but once on an A-road it's nice to have the valves bouncing on the bonnet :D

On the right road yes :) Sadly the roads on the way to my new job just don't allow for it. There isn't one nice corner on the whole drive :mark:

[Sonic]

Maybe on the motorway, but once on an A-road it's nice to have the valves bouncing on the bonnet :D

Amen! The Alfa is just ticking itself cool after one such drive :D

[MrJan]

Had another reminder why the car is better. There's some roadworks on the route home from work and the traffic really backs up so you get stuck for ages. Luckily a colleague who left earlier gave me a call to remind me so I went a different way home. It's usally 5-10 minutes slower but that's far less time than I would have spent in the queue and I kept moving. With a bus I'd have been on that route and the already long journey would've been longer still.

[anthonyvop]

Time is money....I can't afford Public Transportation.

[MrMetro]

Public Transport
Bus to York station = £2
Train to Leeds = £11
Walk to hotel
--
Walk to station
Train to York = £11.90
Bus to University = £1.50
Total cost = £26.40
Time taken
Out = 1 hour 45 minutes
Back = 2 hours
Total = 3 hours 45 minutes

To summarise
By car takes 55 minutes in total and costs £6.44 (plus milage costs etc but most of the costs of the car are fixed)
By public transport takes 3 hours 45 minutes in total and costs £26.40

Of course you could say it's not a fair comparison because if I wasn't using my car I wouldn't have chosen that hotel to stay in, which I guess is the point that the car gives you the flexibility.

Unless I've misread, you state two rail journeys at 11.90 each. I know for a fact that a anytime return ticket between York and Leeds costs 14.90, so I think you've miscalculated that.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

The only time I ever use public transport is if I plan on drinking. And even then I often get a taxi instead.

[MrMetro]

I would be interested to hear the opinions of those who live in London, which has an excellent public transport network.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I would be interested to hear the opinions of those who live in London, which has an excellent public transport network.

Well that's completely different. Everyone who works in London who used the tube hates it, but London would be hell without it.

Interestingly I often get told by European friends, from countries with heavily socialised public transport, that the UK's privitised public transport is a rip-off and useless.

[MrJan]

The only time I ever use public transport is if I plan on drinking. And even then I often get a taxi instead.

I usually revert to my trusty push bike :D

[MrMetro]

Well that's completely different. Everyone who works in London who used the tube hates it, but London would be hell without it.

Interestingly I often get told by European friends, from countries with heavily socialised public transport, that the UK's privitised public transport is a rip-off and useless.

The Tube is owned and run by Transport for London (TfL) a local government body. The rest of the National Rail network is run by private operators, known in the industry as Train Operating Companies (TOC)

There are some dreadful TOC's, but then there are the better regarded TOC's. C2C, Merseyrail and Chiltern Railways to name a few.

The Tube in my opinion is brilliant. It has not helped for many years it was starved of investment, and then the botched public-private partnerships. TfL seem to be making great progress with the new upgrades.

[Mark]

Well that's completely different. Everyone who works in London who used the tube hates it, but London would be hell without it.

Interestingly I often get told by European friends, from countries with heavily socialised public transport, that the UK's privitised public transport is a rip-off and useless.

European cities tend to be much higher density than the UK so lend themselves much more to public transport.

[Daniel]

I usually revert to my trusty push bike :D

I'm sure I've seen you on roadwars or one of those programs :p

[MrJan]

I'm sure I've seen you on roadwars or one of those programs :p

:D

Not guilty, m'lud. Only been pulled over 3 times, and each time sent on my way happily. Once for no front light (short ride of about 100 yards on the actual road, and I always think that anything in front of me is up to me to spot them and take care, I never go anywhere without a back light). Once for running a set of lights (it was late and I could clearly see that no traffic was coming...and I wanted to get home to watch Red Dwarf. It's not something I've done before or since). And once for being in a trading estate at about 1 in the morning (think they thought I was scoping a place to thieve stuff from).

I did ride home after a bit of a session on Saturday, not quite sure how I made it home safely but the only injury was from when I kicked the bathroom door after getting home.

[BDunnell]

Well that's completely different. Everyone who works in London who used the tube hates it, but London would be hell without it.

Interestingly I often get told by European friends, from countries with heavily socialised public transport, that the UK's privitised public transport is a rip-off and useless.

My experience of living in mainland Europe and travelling around it on public transport is that the UK isn't actually so bad. The notion that the rest of Europe is some kind of public transport paradise now strikes me as fanciful, having waited and waited for long-delayed trains in Sweden, felt decidedly threatened on the RER in Paris, and been subjected to the dire performance of Berlin's S-Bahn over recent months, to say nothing of the general malaise that now affects Deutsche Bahn's main line services. The truth is, I suppose, that running public transport networks to a high standard is just bloody difficult. But nothing will ever convince me that privatisation in the UK has been anything other than an appalling idea. There is no sense of the idea of a 'network' now, none of the benefits of competition have been felt because it is virtually impossible to actually achieve competition on bus routes or railway lines, and the much-trumpeted superiority of the private sector when it comes to providing services has been shown to be nonsense anyway.

[Mark]

watch Red Dwarf. It's not something I've done before or since

You should, it's good :D :p

[Mark]

My experience of living in mainland Europe and travelling around it on public transport is that the UK isn't actually so bad. The notion that the rest of Europe is some kind of public transport paradise now strikes me as fanciful, having waited and waited for long-delayed trains in Sweden, felt decidedly threatened on the RER in Paris, and been subjected to the dire performance of Berlin's S-Bahn over recent months, to say nothing of the general malaise that now affects Deutsche Bahn's main line services. The truth is, I suppose, that running public transport networks to a high standard is just bloody difficult. But nothing will ever convince me that privatisation in the UK has been anything other than an appalling idea. There is no sense of the idea of a 'network' now, none of the benefits of competition have been felt because it is virtually impossible to actually achieve competition on bus routes or railway lines, and the much-trumpeted superiority of the private sector when it comes to providing services has been shown to be nonsense anyway.

Agreed. Running a public transport network requires considerable infrastructure investment, so it's basically resulted in large areas with only one operator running as a monopoly. Often if you do get competition it's on a limited section of popular routes e.g. In York there's now a competitor to First group on the Station to University route - meaning the fares have come down considerably due to the competition between the two, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

[MrMetro]

I've found that better private rail companies are found on routes that are less complex and have less overlap with other operators.

For example highly rated train companies such as Chiltern, Merseyrail and C2C all run on routes that are not complex and don't share the tracks with other companies.

Compare this to companies like CrossCountry, Northern and Southwest Trains, who run on complex routes and share tracks with other operators are often delayed and have a less popular reputation.

[MrMetro]

It is also made more complex due to Train Operating Companies (the term used in the rail industry) not actually owning the tracks. That honour goes to Network Rail, created to take over Failtrack, sorry, I mean Railtrack. As mentioned, there is little intergration in the British rail industry like there once was.

[MrMetro]

There is no sense of the idea of a 'network' now, none of the benefits of competition have been felt because it is virtually impossible to actually achieve competition on bus routes or railway lines, and the much-trumpeted superiority of the private sector when it comes to providing services has been shown to be nonsense anyway.

The 'Bus wars' that emerged after de-regulation provide short term benefit to passengers. But often is the case that one of the operators will be bought by the 'big' transport groups; First, Stagecoach, Arriva and Go-ahead. Then the mononply operator will increase prices and the passenger suffers.

There is competiton in the railway industry to a certain extent, but its hardly what you consider 'proper' competition. Train Operating Companies will compete to operate the respective franchise, some upcoming examples include the West Coast franchise, which at the moment is operated by Virgin and the East Anglia franchise.

The problem with this is when companies overbid for a franchise. Its what killed off Great North Eastern Railway (GNER) and National Express East Coast (NXEC) As a result of overbidding, GNER had to raise fare prices, increase car parking charges and cut staff.

NXEC also failed due to overbidding, resulting in the East Coast mainline franchise being taking into public ownership.

[BDunnell]

Agreed. Running a public transport network requires considerable infrastructure investment, so it's basically resulted in large areas with only one operator running as a monopoly. Often if you do get competition it's on a limited section of popular routes e.g. In York there's now a competitor to First group on the Station to University route - meaning the fares have come down considerably due to the competition between the two, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

There is 'competition' on certain bus routes in Sheffield, too, but in reality it's not been that helpful to passengers in my experience because most ticket types can only be used on one operator's buses. Another example of how privatisation and competition is all well and good as a theory, and may bring about slightly cheaper fares, but results in aspects of travelling becoming less convenient.

[BDunnell]

As mentioned, there is little intergration in the British rail industry like there once was.

A fact that always leads to the passenger suffering. How can one expect to have a properly integrated network when competing commercial interests are at play?

[BDunnell]

The 'Bus wars' that emerged after de-regulation provide short term benefit to passengers. But often is the case that one of the operators will be bought by the 'big' transport groups; First, Stagecoach, Arriva and Go-ahead. Then the mononply operator will increase prices and the passenger suffers.

The classic, of course, was in Sheffield immediately after de-regulation, where the streets were literally clogged with buses from countless operators, each of whom would try and run their service a minute or two ahead of their rivals — and very few of whom survived. It was utterly unsustainable.

Your point about ending up with a monopoly is well-made. However, as I put in my post above, competition can very often bring about a highly inconvenient situation for passengers regarding ticketing, and to avoid this does away with one of the key benefits of competition. I would prefer a cheap, municipally-run monopoly, as we see in many mainland European cities. The bus services here in Berlin are generally excellent, and they are run and funded in just such a way.



There is competiton in the railway industry to a certain extent, but its hardly what you consider 'proper' competition.

There used to be competition on certain routes, but generally the choice was just between a less costly stopping service from one operator, and a pricier non-stopping service from another, like between London and Ipswich before that route all became part of the same franchise. And where, in all honesty, was the choice in that?

Sadly, one rail route that would benefit from genuine competition, namely that through the Channel Tunnel, has seen no such thing up to now, and won't for a while yet. It's a shame, because Eurostar is a good example of a complacent monopoly operator that could do with a bit of rivalry. British Rail, for all its faults, was anything but by the time it was privatised.

[MrMetro]

Your point about ending up with a monopoly is well-made. However, as I put in my post above, competition can very often bring about a highly inconvenient situation for passengers regarding ticketing, and to avoid this does away with one of the key benefits of competition. I would prefer a cheap, municipally-run monopoly, as we see in many mainland European cities. The bus services here in Berlin are generally excellent, and they are run and funded in just such a way.

I have nothing against monopolies if the company is doing a good job, but I have found that private companies like Stagecoach or First couldn't give a cr*p about passengers when they are in the monopoly position.

Its interesting in the UK that the better rated bus companies are those still run by the council, for example Lothian buses in Edinburgh and Nottingham City Transport.

Personally, if you really have to involve the private sector with buses, then base it on London Buses. The private company runs the service, but Transport for London set the fares and service levels.

[BDunnell]

I have nothing against monopolies if the company is doing a good job, but I have found that private companies like Stagecoach or First couldn't give a cr*p about passengers when they are in the monopoly position.

Very true.



Personally, if you really have to involve the private sector with buses, then base it on London Buses. The private company runs the service, but Transport for London set the fares and service levels.

It is a sad indictment of the way in which government, whether central or local, has washed its hands of local bus services that local authorities are so unwilling to get involved in taking any action to improve services. Many argue that as most of the services in question are private commercial operations that run without council subsidy, it is none of their business. However, the fact is that councils at the county/municipal level do still have leverage over private bus operators, in that they award the route service contracts to them, and have public transport within their remits. They merely choose not to do anything. This is especially bad in rural areas not served by any of the major operators — such as First and Stagecoach may often be appalling, but they have nothing on the utter lack of professionalism displayed by some of the smaller private companies, in my experience.

[Mark]

But it does seem to be an issue that in the UK we can't run publically owned trains / buses etc? Or is it just that when they were under public ownership they were so starved of funds?

[BDunnell]

But it does seem to be an issue that in the UK we can't run publically owned trains / buses etc? Or is it just that when they were under public ownership they were so starved of funds?

But we can. That's a major part of my point. Forget its public image, which was (and is) largely based on misconceived perceptions — most railway experts agree that British Rail at the time of its privatisation was a massively improved organisation.

[Mark]

I guess my point is that it's largely mismanagement by governments that's the issue. Instead of putting good governance in place and let them run the service as a proper business, they interfere and want to approve all spending, won't let them borrow money and crucially; cut their funding.

[Dave B]

... most railway experts agree that British Rail at the time of its privatisation was a massively improved organisation.

True, but wasn't there a suggestion that it had been fattenned up for market, so to speak?

[MrMetro]

But it does seem to be an issue that in the UK we can't run publically owned trains / buses etc? Or is it just that when they were under public ownership they were so starved of funds?

As I mentioned before, some of the better rated bus companies in the UK are those still owned by the local council. Lothian Buses have been given numerous awards over the last couple of years, as have Nottingham City Transport.

[BDunnell]

True, but wasn't there a suggestion that it had been fattenned up for market, so to speak?

That's not one I'm aware of. BR had seen a steady process of improvement over a number of years. If left alone, rail experts seem to be largely agreed that the model, including separate business units for such as inter-city and regional services, would have been set fair.

[Mark]

I've read that government funding for BR was the equivalent of £1bn/year but now it's more like £5bn. Which raises the question what BR could have done with that level of funding.

[BDunnell]

I've read that government funding for BR was the equivalent of £1bn/year but now it's more like £5bn. Which raises the question what BR could have done with that level of funding.

Indeed, it is well known now that the railways actually cost the taxpayer far more now than they did when they were still nationalised. But that doesn't matter to some, so long as the ideology is correct. BR was also in a position of requiring less and less government subsidy as the years went on, if I remember rightly.

Let's not forget who the villain of the piece is here — not Thatcher in this case but John Major, who had a nostalgic vision of the inter-war years including different rail operators competing side-by-side on the same routes. Had Major had a grasp of history on this subject, he would have known that the railways as they existed between the wars were unreliable, provided dreadful facilities for their second and third-class passengers, and were totally unsustainable as a result of that competition. It was perhaps his most misguided policy.

[MrMetro]

Let's not forget who the villain of the piece is here — not Thatcher in this case but John Major, who had a nostalgic vision of the inter-war years including different rail operators competing side-by-side on the same routes. Had Major had a grasp of history on this subject, he would have known that the railways as they existed between the wars were unreliable, provided dreadful facilities for their second and third-class passengers, and were totally unsustainable as a result of that competition. It was perhaps his most misguided policy.

Indeed it was John Major who privatised BR. And quite a naff job he did of it as well, planned poorly and rushed. He had to do it though, to make him look like a big man, privatising something Thatcher wouldn't dare touch.

[AndyRAC]

Of all the privatisations - the one affecting the railways was probably the worst. As somebody has already stated - the romantic visions of the railways pre-nationalisation was completely at odds with the reality. And what we have now is a right mess.

Come back BR......
We're getting there......

[BDunnell]

Of all the privatisations - the one affecting the railways was probably the worst. As somebody has already stated - the romantic visions of the railways pre-nationalisation was completely at odds with the reality. And what we have now is a right mess.

Come back BR......
We're getting there......

But we never will get there, because none of the main parties are in favour of any model other than the current one. For all their talk of 'choice', on the issue of private sector involvement in the public services, we have none at the ballot box.

[Mark]

Isn't the problem at the moment is that there are now far too many vested interests, especially in terms of the banks leasing the rolling stock, that taking the lot of it back into public ownership would be an almighty struggle!

IMO for the railways to get their costs down and do things properly - as they were saying on the news today, it's not the train companies that are the issue, but the ROSCOs (i.e. the companies that actually own the trains and lease them to the train operating companies) that are the issue, if we were to bring those back into public ownership again, such that the government actually owns the trains, we'd be on a better footing. But, the whole point of having them in the first place is so that someone other than the government can borrow the money needed to purchase new rolling stock - so there's no easy answers.

[MrMetro]

This makes for interesting reading: http://www.firstcrapitalconnect.co.uk/what-can-we-do-about-first-capital-connect.html

[52Paddy]

Interesting thread - for the record: my journey from home (Dublin) to college (Limerick) is 120 miles and is one I make every couple of weekends. I usually stay put in one area or the other for a long period of time.

By car -

Petrol: costs less than €20 (about €18).
Time: 90mins

By coach

Bus into coach station: €1.80
Coach: €11
Total: €12.80
Time: 3-4 hours

It costs me about €6 more to use the car but, factoring in comfort, flexibility of time and ability to bring the luggage I need (usually comprises a few instruments, bag of clothes and a backpack) this is a worthy investment. If I compare the train, it's much, much worse:

Tram ticket to station: €2.10
Train ticket: €15 (only at certain times, usually last train)
Taxi home from train station: €8 (Getting the last train means I arrive in Limerick at midnight and public transport has finished up)
Total: €25.10

If I get an earlier train in order to get down to Limerick before the buses finish up, I would have to pay €29 for the train ticket!

I'll have the car, thank you very much :D

[MattL]

Interesting thread this - and a distinct lack of London (or other city) workers!

My current daily commute is small and working for a car manufacturer, I am biased. However...I spent a couple of years working as an account manager, which meant being on the road for hours every day, returning home to 100s of emails etc. The area I covered included London, and I loved the days when I visited customers in London, as I could use the train journeys to and from London to work.

I accept this is a different scenario to most for several reasons (all mileage was on business and therefore reimbursed; my working day included the time in the car; I could manage my diary to travel into London outside of rush hour and therefore guarantee a seat on the train to enable me to get the laptop out), but there are some real advantages to public transport.

[Mark]

Of course most people don't work in London. But there's a rare example of a city where public transport wins, just due to the sheer size of the place and the amount of people there, driving in and out isn't practical, so the train is the sensible option, even then it's crazily crowded.

One thing those of us outside London have the perception of is that it seems the transport planners in Whitehall think that all cities have as good an external rail connection as London, and an internal pubilc transport system as good as London, when this is very far from being the case. Which is why the likes of a congestion charging zone isn't practical anywhere else.

[52Paddy]

I work in Dublin city centre as a bike courier and this, in my opinion, is the best way around the city. It's quicker than the bus (if you're half decent on a bike) and you don't need to worry about traffic or parking. Parking in Dublin is a nightmare and not free. The street system is a bit awkward in places and, unless you're carrying a lot of luggage or the weather is miserable, the car is unnecessary. In line with what Matt has said above, public transport does have its place in society. Unfortunately, the service in Dublin is not punctual so you cannot always rely on buses if you have a specific time plan.

[BDunnell]

One thing those of us outside London have the perception of is that it seems the transport planners in Whitehall think that all cities have as good an external rail connection as London, and an internal pubilc transport system as good as London, when this is very far from being the case.

I wish there were some transport planners in Whitehall! A bit more (sensible) central control might be a very good thing.

[MrMetro]

Central government is not always good for transport. An example being the ill-fated London Underground public-private partnership (PPP). Metronet and Tube lines went bust and had to be bailed out by the taxpayer. PPP was not the idea of Transport for London (TfL), but rather the Labour government, who insisted that it would be better for updating the tube and better value for the taxpayer.

A lot of the work being carried out on the Tube today was meant to be completed earlier, but the failing of Metronet and Tube Lines prevented this.

[Daniel]

Central government is not always good for transport. An example being the ill-fated London Underground public-private partnership (PPP). Metronet and Tube lines went bust and had to be bailed out by the taxpayer. PPP was not the idea of Transport for London (TfL), but rather the Labour government, who insisted that it would be better for updating the tube and better value for the taxpayer.

A lot of the work being carried out on the Tube today was meant to be completed earlier, but the failing of Metronet and Tube Lines prevented this.

But the sort of idiots you get working in local government aren't any better and having multiple groups of these people makes for a fragmented solution.

[Erki]

By car:
distance: 5.5km :)
fuel: 0.44L (at 8L/100km average)
fuel cost: €0.52 (at €1.19/L)
time: haven't measured, most likely about 11 minutes with a stop at a kiosk to buy an energy drink to kick start my day. :burnout:

By bus:
walk to bus stop: ~8 minutes
bus drive: ~8 minutes
walk to workplace: ~5 minutes
total: ~21 minutes
cost: €0.64 and no energy drink :dozey:

This obviously doesn't factor in additional costs like the car itself, insurance, tyres, repair/service work.. parking! (I live in the middle of the city).

Many people around here seem to have complaints about public transport and some of them surely are justified, but at least for me the system works well enough.. unless I stay out later than the last bus leaves.

[anthonyvop]

I decided to give Public transport a go the other day.

I walk out the front door of my house and waited....and waited....and waited. After 45 seconds a vehicle with comfortable seats, personal control of the climate and sound system and a driver who would take me anywhere I wanted to go, when I wanted to go and taking the route I decide failed to materialize!

So much for Public transportation.

[janneppi]

I work in Dublin city centre as a bike courier and this, in my opinion, is the best way around the city. It's quicker than the bus (if you're half decent on a bike) and you don't need to worry about traffic or parking.
I try to use my bike three-four times a week for commuting. I'm a bit faster than the bus from door to door, part of it is the bus route is 22km's and I can do a 17,5 km route on a bicycle. It's good fun on most days, and I get some much needed exercise few hours week.

[52Paddy]

I try to use my bike three-four times a week for commuting. I'm a bit faster than the bus from door to door, part of it is the bus route is 22km's and I can do a 17,5 km route on a bicycle. It's good fun on most days, and I get some much needed exercise few hours week.

Good work. Unfortunately, a lot of people whom I mention this to at home seem to think that cycling is a huge effort. It really isn't, especially when the weather is good. Bear in mind, I live about 5km from the city centre.

[Mark]

Good work. Unfortunately, a lot of people whom I mention this to at home seem to think that cycling is a huge effort. It really isn't, especially when the weather is good. Bear in mind, I live about 5km from the city centre.

It is when you aren't used to it and haven't got your fitness.

I used to cycle, many years ago, and even the likes of 5km was a struggle at first, but after a few months it was as easy as walking to the next room!

[MrJan]

It is when you aren't used to it and haven't got your fitness.

Or the bike! Blokes at work have spent upwards of £1500 on road bikes, in some cases more than I'll spend on getting a car. That's slightly different compared to my 10 year old bike that cost £250 new. It also depends on route, for example a lot of the roads around me are extremely hilly which takes it out of me. I'll happily do mileage on the flat but hauling my (rather substantial) weight up a hill will drastically cut down the distance that I'm happy to go.

[52Paddy]

It is when you aren't used to it and haven't got your fitness.

I used to cycle, many years ago, and even the likes of 5km was a struggle at first, but after a few months it was as easy as walking to the next room!

True, but it does get easier for sure (as I'm aware you pointed out).

[GridGirl]

As much as I like cycling (which isn't alot right now) I still wouldn't cycle to work. :s I was to do a charity 72 mile cycle ride in two weeks and had been doing rides of up to 42miles on my mountain bike using off road tyres. I wasn't going to swap to slick tyres until this weekend but then I fell off while mountain biking last weekend. A nice x-ray has confirmed no broken bones but my cycling days are over for a good month or two. I really hope it's not going to be too hard getting back in the saddle after having such a long break from it.

The other half spent £1800 on his 2009 mountain bike. The 2011 version of the same bike is £2400 in shops to buy now. The price of bikes seem to be sky rocketing right now. The increase is partly due to increased demand pushing prices up and rising costs. In the UK at least it appears to be a good idea to buy sooner rather than later if your thinking about getting into cycling.

[Daniel]

As much as I like cycling (which isn't alot right now) I still wouldn't cycle to work. :s I was to do a charity 72 mile cycle ride in two weeks and had been doing rides of up to 42miles on my mountain bike using off road tyres. I wasn't going to swap to slick tyres until this weekend but then I fell off while mountain biking last weekend. A nice x-ray has confirmed no broken bones but my cycling days are over for a good month or two. I really hope it's not going to be too hard getting back in the saddle after having such a long break from it.

The other half spent £1800 on his 2009 mountain bike. The 2011 version of the same bike is £2400 in shops to buy now. The price of bikes seem to be sky rocketing right now. The increase is partly due to increased demand pushing prices up and rising costs. In the UK at least it appears to be a good idea to buy sooner rather than later if your thinking about getting into cycling.

Bike prices also tend to fluctuate seasonally as well :) Winter is the best time to buy :)

[GridGirl]

Prices don't tend to dip in winter though as new season bikes are launched late August and early September time. You could maybe get a cheaper bike around that time if the are selling old season stock and you can find a bike in your size. Depends on your sizing to be honest. I suppose it depends what end of the bike market your looking at though. I suppose there could be more fluctuation in the cheaper or entry level type bikes. I've narrowed my next bike purchase down two two models which currently cost £1200 and £2000. If I'm going to get a new bike this year it won't be until late summer. Well I get a new bike or I put decking in the garden anyhows.