R4 vs S2000

[Sulland]

Seems like the R4s still have some work to do to match the S2000s, looking at the results from Sardinia, but good to see that the R4 class out in competition.

Will they ever be able to catch the S2000 NA cars ?

[morganmilan]

A question about R4: having a look at entry lists it isn´t clear for me which cars are R4 and which ones are "normal" N4. Is it any particular way to know that? Are there great differences between them ( referring to results and paces, I mean)

[Mirek]

They are in different class. R4 is in class 2 (with S2000), N4 is in class 3.

[morganmilan]

Thnx Mirek. It´s right, I knew that. I think the problem is sometimes entry lists aren´t referred to FIA classes, but to national ones. Are results quite different between these cars up to now, or must we look forward to future developing of R4 cars?

[Mirek]

I know only about two rallies where full-spec R4 cars started, so for me it's too early for any answer.

[morganmilan]

I know only about two rallies where full-spec R4 cars started, so for me it's too early for any answer.
Let´s wait and see...thnx Mirek

[dimviii]

i d like to be very close,but i really doubt it.

[nerdhan]

Will they ever be able to catch the S2000 NA cars ?

Get a world class driver like Hanninen, Meeke or Solberg in an R4 fitted with decent Michelin\Pirelli tires and prepared by a reputable rally team and its highly likely that it will be able to compete with than S2000.

The only true indicatiion of how close an R4 car will be to an S2000 car is for the same driver to test both cars on a series of timed runs with identical set ups to see which one is quicker of course.

[Mirek]

That would again apply only for particular test track. Stages all around the world differ a lot and such fundamentally different cars like R4 and S2000 shows their pros and cons in different conditions. I bet on Italian asphalt roads like Sanremo nothing changes with R4, they will be still way behind. But I believe that on some gravel stages or Central European asphalts it may be different story.

[urabus-denoS2000]

I think Rally Saturnus will be a good indication , with Pech in a R4 and Piero Longhi in an Fabia S2000 ... Also , Solowow will debut in an Evo X R4 against 10 S2000 in Croatia Rally , so it might show us some comparison :)

[OldF]

Also imo it depends much what kind the stages are. At least here in Finland the S2000 hasn’t been superior even against N4. Of course the driver also has something to do with the results. ;)

Arctic Lapland part 1: Janne Tuohino, Ford Fiesta, 2nd 0:39,0 behind the winner.
Arctic Lapland part 2: Janne Tuohino, Ford Fiesta, 3rd 0:37,4 behind the winner.
Vaakuna ralli: Janne Tuohino, Ford Fiesta, 3rd 1:18,2 behind the winner.
O.K Auto-ralli: Matti Rantanen, Peugeot 207, 2nd 0:09,1 behind the winner.

Imo instead of trying to get the R4 performance closer to S2000 performance, FIA should investigate whether it is possible to create some kind of kid brother to the S2000 keppeing the costs at R3 level.

[pantealex]

OldF:
You forgot this, N4 in Finland is not same than FIA N4
Ryhmä N Kansallinen lisäys kohtaan 254.7.
Ahtimen ilman kuristin on 34 mm FINR4WD sääntökohdan 4.8.2 mukaisesti
Jarrut ryhmän FINR 4WD kohdan 8. mukaisesti.
Puskurit ryhmän FINR 4WD kohdan 10.2.1. mukaan.

[Mirek]

In NORF it looked quite clear for S2000, wasn't it?

[Mixa]

Yeah past few seasons at NORF even with Finnish top drivers, group N or should I say PCWRC haven´t had any change of beating the S2000´s . Also what comes to Finnish gr. N it´s impossible to compare those to S2000´s. What I have read and heard, Finnish gr. N drivers who competes internationally are even having different cars to do the international events so them don´t even use the ones of the national championship on those events because it´s easier to do it that way due to all kind of things what them should change. Of course can be wrong too....

[OldF]

OldF:
You forgot this, N4 in Finland is not same than FIA N4
Ryhmä N Kansallinen lisäys kohtaan 254.7.
Ahtimen ilman kuristin on 34 mm FINR4WD sääntökohdan 4.8.2 mukaisesti
Jarrut ryhmän FINR 4WD kohdan 8. mukaisesti.
Puskurit ryhmän FINR 4WD kohdan 10.2.1. mukaan.

I must confess, I didn’t know that. Took a while before I found that chapter. I never read those rules so accurately, just a quick browsing and “OK, they’re the same as 254” and then I missed the 7th chapter.

[OldF]

In NORF it looked quite clear for S2000, wasn't it?

You’re right. The post from pantealex (34 mm restrictor) explains part of it and in NORF there are more S2000 drivers.

[Ucci]

I think Rally Saturnus will be a good indication , with Pech in a R4 and Piero Longhi in an Fabia S2000 ... Also , Solowow will debut in an Evo X R4 against 10 S2000 in Croatia Rally , so it might show us some comparison :)
According to the interview made with Pech few days ago, he will have this weekend yust minor changes on his evo9 (lighter side doors and windows), no changes on the suspension....so still not a true R4......But he has one big advantage compare to Longhi-this will be his fourth Satrurnus, Longhi is ''fresh''.......

[mousti]

In Ypres we'll see also a good test with Jasper Vd Heuvel probably be the fastest driver to drive Ypres in a Lancer a better one u'll probably not find.

[rv65]

http://eng.kaps-transmissions.com/products-r4-sequential-gearbox.html

It looks like R4 can use sequential gearbox, which is interesting. I'm sure one will come out for the Evo.

[Mirek]

It is not allowed. See page 26 specific regulations: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... 0%20(11-12 (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/864DF82E9559C3BBC125784D005F574B/$FILE/260%20(11-12))-080311.pdf

[RS]

Arai is around 3s/km off the pace on Corsica, I guess at least half of that is the driver. There are still some more parts to come on the Impreza.

[Mirek]

He was also on Yokohama tyres which is another questionable factor...

[MR666]

Plus I am sure Arai said that the rally was more of a test so was not going to go flat out and bin the car.

[nerdhan]

http://www.rallybuzz.com/rally-talsi-2011-mml-sports-r4-lancer-evox-debut/

Ketomaa demonstrated that clearly if you have a fast quality and experienced driver in a production car N4 or R4 you can achieve very quick and competitive times.

No disrespect to Toshi Arai but he is 45 years old, has never been a "tarmac expert" and is not getting any faster as the years roll by. But I expect him to make some sort of impression against the S2000 front runners in Scotland providing he pushes hard and does'nt make mistakes as he is a quality driver on gravel as his track record shows.

I know its a long way to go for the Rally of Scotland but it would be very interesting to see the stage times Arai's R4 Impreza against one the Factory Protons providing they enter (with the exception of Alistair Mcrae as I suppose he knows the roads inside out).... I get a feeling the Imprezas would at least be very close to the Protons if not posibly even quicker on the long straights???

[Allyc85]

Is it just me that thinks that R4 is a complete waste of time and money?

[N.O.T]

no...it is a useless idea.

[Coach 2]

Anything that can get Subarus and Mitsus competitive against S2000 cars will be very valuable for many drivers in the national championships in all countries. There are many people who have sponsorship money from the importers of these cars.
There are a lot of other reasons too ......... try to figure it out.

[bluuford]

Well, If you like to compare Ketomaa speed with R4 and normal N4 and Focus WRC in Latvia. Take a look at here:
http://autorally.lv/2011/?pid=3&lng=en&id=7&comp=1&ss=1
Keep in mind that Ketomaa was always first on the road and local knowledge in this rally is very important.
Ketomaa had a puncture on the last stage (like many had) and that is why he lost so much time there.
If you like to know something about Gross speed, then with the old car he was approximately 10 sek faster that Tänak in Saaremaa rally 2010 (Tänak was with Fiesta S2000). But nearly 1.5 minutes behind Ostberg in Subaru
http://www.autosport.ee/rallyreg/?page=33&race_id=83&race_ss_class_id=0&race_ss_id=285&

[mousti]

Jasper vd Heuvel tested the R4 lately and said he's 1 sec per km faster than the regular Evo X!

He had to setup itself because there's not a asphalt kit available he said.

[Mirek]

Again this number flies in the air like always when there is some modification to any car. But 1s/km is HUGE difference. I don't believe in that at all...

[Sulland]

R4 Sequential Gearbox | Subaru STI - KAPS Závodní pøevodovky (http://eng.kaps-transmissions.com/products-r4-sequential-gearbox.html)

It looks like R4 can use sequential gearbox, which is interesting. I'm sure one will come out for the Evo.


It is not allowed. See page 26 specific regulations: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... 0%20(11-12 (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/864DF82E9559C3BBC125784D005F574B/$FILE/260%20(11-12))-080311.pdf


Strange that Subaru would make a R4 sequntial box if it not allowed. Is it planned to be allowed in 2012 maybe ?

[mousti]

Again this number flies in the air like always when there is some modification to any car. But 1s/km is HUGE difference. I don't believe in that at all...
Maybe he found the perfect setup :D . Why would he lie about it? Info came from a source of Vd Heuvel, so I don't think it's a way of promoting it. Or he did round the number to 1 sec :D when it actually was 0.7 secs or so :D .

I think next sequential gearbox will be allowed?

[jonas_mcrae]

Its not a useless idea from the business and economical side of things

Think as RALLYART ITALY or as STI, they know how many group N cars are out there competing and LOOSING against S2000 cars, and they also know that group N cars easily outnumber S2000's. Maybe not everyone will buy the R4 kit but if a percentage of the owner base does, it can still prove quite profitable.

And if you think as an owner, you have a rally car that can't beat an S2000, however you paid much less for your evo X than you would for say, a Fabia, and now rally art is selling a kit that may give you a chance against the S2000's and still will cost you less...

The market is there, thats why they do it!

[dimviii]

Its not a useless idea from the business and economical side of things

Think as RALLYART ITALY or as STI, they know how many group N cars are out there competing and LOOSING against S2000 cars, and they also know that group N cars easily outnumber S2000's. Maybe not everyone will buy the R4 kit but if a percentage of the owner base does, it can still prove quite profitable.

And if you think as an owner, you have a rally car that can't beat an S2000, however you paid much less for your evo X than you would for say, a Fabia, and now rally art is selling a kit that may give you a chance against the S2000's and still will cost you less...

The market is there, thats why they do it!

exactly!

[mousti]

Its not a useless idea from the business and economical side of things

Think as RALLYART ITALY or as STI, they know how many group N cars are out there competing and LOOSING against S2000 cars, and they also know that group N cars easily outnumber S2000's. Maybe not everyone will buy the R4 kit but if a percentage of the owner base does, it can still prove quite profitable.

And if you think as an owner, you have a rally car that can't beat an S2000, however you paid much less for your evo X than you would for say, a Fabia, and now rally art is selling a kit that may give you a chance against the S2000's and still will cost you less...

The market is there, thats why they do it!
That's indeed true because he rents and sells Lancers ;)

But because it was from a source close to him I don't see why he would lie there. It would be obvious if it would be in a newsletter or interview..

I was thinking that directly but thought then maybe not. Oh well he'll beat for sure some S2000's in Ypres.

[Mirek]

If it was true, the car would be much faster than S2000. And that's just a fantasy. Moreover such measure apply only on one particular track with one particular driver, one tyres, one weather etc.

And I simply don't believe that let's say 60 kg and better suspension can do 1s/km. Look at that realistically, 1s/km is 5 minutes on a rally like Ypres! Even if it is 0,3 s/km it's still huge improvement.

[mousti]

Well with that said, then I'll say indeed it can't be true :D . If he would be like 5 mins faster in Ypres he'll beat everyone easily :D . Once again Mirek u teach me some stuff :p

[bluuford]

If it was true, the car would be much faster than S2000. And that's just a fantasy. Moreover such measure apply only on one particular track with one particular driver, one tyres, one weather etc.

And I simply don't believe that let's say 60 kg and better suspension can do 1s/km. Look at that realistically, 1s/km is 5 minutes on a rally like Ypres! Even if it is 0,3 s/km it's still huge improvement.

It depends a lot on surface. For example, when we take South-Estonian rally in 2010
RALLI » Võistlused » Tulemused (http://autosport.ee/rallyreg/?page=33&race_id=80&race_ss_id=219&)
Tänak had Subaru with latest improvements (without R4 kit of course, but with bigger restrictor)
He was fastest GrN car
Gardemeister was second 83 sec behind and
Prokop was further behind but without his time penalty he was around 70 sec behind
They covered around 185 km, so he was around 0.38-0.4 sec per km faster (he didn't had to push the last, because he didn't had to). Rally is fast and Subaru with its high speed had an advantage.
Another factor is that I think Tänak was running with BFgoodrich and the others with Pirelli control tires, but I am not sure (Tire company was not visible in Prokop car). Maybe some home rally effect as well (Prokop was also not first timer in South-Estonia).

Two weeks later, Tänak with Mistu and Toni and Prokop with Ford in Finland.
Fastest was Toni, Prokop around 55 sec behind and Tänak around 95 sec behind during the first 13 stages (approximately 190 km) and at the beginning they all pushed very hard. So, now Tänak was 0.5 sec slower than Toni (now Toni had home effect). Yes, this time he had heavier Pirelli car with control tires bust still the difference in two rallies is around 0.9 sec/km between the same two drivers. I do not think it is all down to tires and some extra weight only.

So, a bit softer and sandier surface with some more straights in S-E was more suitable to traditional GrN car than S2000 car. You can also see that Kaur started under supreally on Sunday and he was also faster than Prokop and Gardemeister.
So, if you add R4 kit to those cars, then I think they might be very, very competitive on such a surface, compared to S2000 cars.

[mousti]

The surface where Vd Heuvel tested was for sure 100% asphalt.

[Mirek]

It depends a lot on surface. For example, when we take South-Estonian rally in 2010
RALLI » Võistlused » Tulemused (http://autosport.ee/rallyreg/?page=33&race_id=80&race_ss_id=219&)
Tänak had Subaru with latest improvements (without R4 kit of course, but with bigger restrictor)
He was fastest GrN car
Gardemeister was second 83 sec behind and
Prokop was further behind but without his time penalty he was around 70 sec behind
They covered around 185 km, so he was around 0.38-0.4 sec per km faster (he didn't had to push the last, because he didn't had to). Rally is fast and Subaru with its high speed had an advantage.
Another factor is that I think Tänak was running with BFgoodrich and the others with Pirelli control tires, but I am not sure (Tire company was not visible in Prokop car). Maybe some home rally effect as well (Prokop was also not first timer in South-Estonia).

Two weeks later, Tänak with Mistu and Toni and Prokop with Ford in Finland.
Fastest was Toni, Prokop around 55 sec behind and Tänak around 95 sec behind during the first 13 stages (approximately 190 km) and at the beginning they all pushed very hard. So, now Tänak was 0.5 sec slower than Toni (now Toni had home effect). Yes, this time he had heavier Pirelli car with control tires bust still the difference in two rallies is around 0.9 sec/km between the same two drivers. I do not think it is all down to tires and some extra weight only.

So, a bit softer and sandier surface with some more straights in S-E was more suitable to traditional GrN car than S2000 car. You can also see that Kaur started under supreally on Sunday and he was also faster than Prokop and Gardemeister.
So, if you add R4 kit to those cars, then I think they might be very, very competitive on such a surface, compared to S2000 cars.

I'm skeptic about comparison based on one or two events and different drivers with different tyres, moreover one local and one newcomer. For me that says nothing about the car ;)

I can fabricate really nice comparisons similar to this one. One very nice is Tlustak and his performance against Cetinkaya :-D In Barum Tlustak was with Fabia and Burcu with Peugeot. She was 3-5 s/km slower without punctures. Now in Turkey both had same Puntos and constantly same (slow) times. So my conclusion is that Fabia is 3-5 s/km faster than 207, right? :D

It's extreme example but I hope it shows what I mean. There is way too much unknowns in such comparison. You would have to compare those drivers in different cars and tyres for many many events before You could statistically make some valid conclusion.

[GTA]

I think we all need to give the R4 project some time.

Its very easy to say that they do not perform close to the S2000... but time will tell and when the Complete R4's will be running in full spec it could be a different story after all.

[Mirek]

Its very easy to say that they do not perform close to the S2000...

I don't say that, Jack. Just I don't believe a real improvement of 1s/km because that is just sci-fi :)

[N.O.T]

the r4 reminds me of the special homologation rules we got a few years back in order for the N4 cars to be able to compete with the s1600 on tarmac rounds....and both are going to end in complete failure.

[OldF]

I understand that Mitsubishi and Subaru wants to fight for the victory in regional, IRC and national championships, but imo it’s unfair if it can be made by a car which price is at least 70.000 € below the price of a S2000.

On the other hand I think the concept of the S2000 got out of hands by allowing too much freedoms in the S2000 rules, which made them expensive.

But what will happen sometimes in the future if R4 rules will have more freedoms to be competitive with S2000 cars (if they ever will be), which also would make them more expensive. Same thing with the S2000 when the current S2000 cars (with 2,0 l NA engine) will get outdated and replaced with about 400.000 € S1600T cars. The price gap between a R4 and S1600T will be huge.

My point is that there are fewer privateers or private teams that can afford running a 4WD car in the future if the prices are increasing all the time by allowing more freedoms to the rules. I’m convinced that a 4WD rally car can be built for about 150.000 € just by comparing few spare parts prices of a R3 and a S2000.

Drive shafts:
Clio R3 = 430 € each
S2000 = 1.600 – 1.900 € each

Hub carriers + hub:
Clio R3 = 350 € each (front hubs)
S2000 = 4.000 – 4.2000 € each

Gravel dampers (set of 4):
Clio R3 = 6.714 €
S2000 = 14.400 €

Front sub frame with arms:
Clio R3 = 4.402 €
S2000 = 5.200 €

Steering rack:
Clio R3 = 1.556 €
S2000 = 2.000 €

S2000 prices: http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/112634-official-s2000-thread-13.html (post #503)

Clio R3 prices: http://www.renault-sport.com/catalogues/rallye/ClioR3/Elec_7711160999_fr_T.pdf

[dimviii]

the r4 reminds me of the special homologation rules we got a few years back in order for the N4 cars to be able to compete with the s1600 on tarmac rounds....and both are going to end in complete failure.
don t think so!
where did you saw the ''failure''?

[dimviii]

I think we all need to give the R4 project some time.

Its very easy to say that they do not perform close to the S2000... but time will tell and when the Complete R4's will be running in full spec it could be a different story after all.
Of course they are going to progress,but really you think that they can manage to win over a s2000 car?
Which spares are missing to have complete r4s? Are they a delay with spares? which ones are delayed?

[Sulland]

I understand that Mitsubishi and Subaru wants to fight for the victory in regional, IRC and national championships, but imo it’s unfair if it can be made by a car which price is at least 70.000 € below the price of a S2000.

On the other hand I think the concept of the S2000 got out of hands by allowing too much freedoms in the S2000 rules, which made them expensive.

But what will happen sometimes in the future if R4 rules will have more freedoms to be competitive with S2000 cars (if they ever will be), which also would make them more expensive. Same thing with the S2000 when the current S2000 cars (with 2,0 l NA engine) will get outdated and replaced with about 400.000 € S1600T cars. The price gap between a R4 and S1600T will be huge.

My point is that there are fewer privateers or private teams that can afford running a 4WD car in the future if the prices are increasing all the time by allowing more freedoms to the rules. I’m convinced that a 4WD rally car can be built for about 150.000 € just by comparing few spare parts prices of a R3 and a S2000.

Drive shafts:
Clio R3 = 430 € each
S2000 = 1.600 – 1.900 € each

Hub carriers + hub:
Clio R3 = 350 € each (front hubs)
S2000 = 4.000 – 4.2000 € each

Gravel dampers (set of 4):
Clio R3 = 6.714 €
S2000 = 14.400 €

Front sub frame with arms:
Clio R3 = 4.402 €
S2000 = 5.200 €

Steering rack:
Clio R3 = 1.556 €
S2000 = 2.000 €

S2000 prices: http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/112634-official-s2000-thread-13.html (post #503)

Clio R3 prices: http://www.renault-sport.com/catalogues/rallye/ClioR3/Elec_7711160999_fr_T.pdf

The S2000NA should have had the FIA maxprice from the start, but now it does not matter since FIA is slowly chokeing the class, and S1600T is even more expensive and most drivers cant afford them.

Many nations are struggeling to figure out what class should be the top 4WD class. A8 will die, but the N4 class is too boring to look at and listen to, so for regional and national series R4 might be the answer.
Or maybe the MaxiRally class would suit many countries.

[Mirek]

The S2000NA should have had the FIA maxprice from the start, but now it does not matter since FIA is slowly chokeing the class, and S1600T is even more expensive and most drivers cant afford them.

S2000 has maximum price, even most of their spare parts have maximum price for which they must be available for sale (S2000 1.6T also). I don't think they are more expensive than few years back when they started. More than 300 of them all around the world after just few years make S2000 one of the most successful rally formula ever. That's just fact.

[Sulland]

I am refering to the 168 000€ limit mentioned here http://www.motorsportforums.com/irc/124561-s2000-r-maxprice.html
That has never been real, since they are at about 300 k € are they not?

[OldF]

As I understand it the 168.000 € is the price for the S2000 kit which doesn’t include the donor car or assembling of the kit.

The price difference for a Peugeot tarmac version (230.000 €) and the kit is 62.000 €. That much they charge for the assistance of assembling the kit, training of mechanics and probably also the donor car and engine.

The gravel version is 245.000 €. The price reduction for the gravel kit is significant when buying a gravel version (245.000 – 230.000 = 15.000 vs. 40.000 as a separate kit).

[OldF]

The S2000 is indeed a successful rally formula. When I first time read about it, my impatient started waiting for the first videos. This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCBx-6DOnDo) (Colin McRae testing the Punto) was the first video I saw of a S2000 and then I got more excited. They have been and are very spectacular both on tarmac and gravel.

Here is a summary from the S2000 database (sorry I have to put it as a link because I didn’t manage to make the copy from an Excel sheet small enough for a embedded pic).

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii284/OkdF/S2000Databasesummary-1.jpg

Btw, how many of these cars are used in the nations by the plate nationality?

Ten of these are written of: 2 Grande Punto, 1 Fiesta, 1 Pug, 1 Proton and 5 Fabia :confused: .

There are 4 top brands and countries in Europe by the plate nationality:

Pug 94
Grande Punto 49
Fabia 45
Fiesta 39

Italy 50
France 47
Great Britain 37
Czech republic 32

Except for few countries there’s not probably many countries where the best drivers have a S2000 to fight for the national championships, and that’s why imo there should be a formula, which would be cheaper than a S2000 and with the performance of a N4 or R4.

[Sulland]

I fully agree with OldF that S2000 is a success, and have trouble understanding FIA that killed it off (but then again FIA is a hard animal to follow the logic from).
It looks the part, and sounds the part for the public, and is quick and responsive for the driver. The only downfall is the price.


Are R4 getting closer, and how close will it be able to get given the current R4 regs ?

[mousti]

It's indeed a big shame that they kill S2000 :( S1.6t doesn't seem to be a good replacement because they are even more expensive I think and will result in lesser sales..

[RICARDO75]

Unfortunately, the 2000 c.c. engines are disappearing from automobile market

[Sulland]

Ok, but if the normal spectator see a Fiesta or a Polo that is fast and sounds like a proper rallycar - he does not care if it 1200 or 2000 ccm, as long as it resembles his Fiesta !

[Sulland]

What is the time diff pr km ss btw a R4 and a N4 as of today ?

[Mirek]

Sulland, as was said many times, any number applies only for one particular track with one particular driver in one particular conditions. It's not possible to say car A is X s/km faster than car B. Universal difference X simply doesn't exist.

[dimviii]

Sulland, as was said many times, any number applies only for one particular track with one particular driver in one particular conditions. It's not possible to say car A is X s/km faster than car B. Universal difference X simply doesn't exist.

Agree,just for reference when i ask ralliart italy in Acropolis they told me about 0,5-0,7 but they didn t told me the driver,the place etc...

[Sulland]

Looks like the R4 need a bigger restrictor to even get close to S2000.

[dimviii]

Looks like the R4 need a bigger restrictor to even get close to S2000.
even with bigger restrictor they are not going to be faster imho.
They are already more powerfull and have double torque than s2000 cars.

[Sulland]

Ok, so what can be done to get them more evenly matched ?

[Mirek]

But why?

[Sulland]

But why?

Was not that the plan frm FIA?

[OldF]

The weight of Mitsu and Subaru R4 cars from this week GP Week (http://mag.gpweek.com/) (page 45).

The weight of both Mitsu and Subaru were 1390 kg in NORF. The Evo X of Michal Kosciuszko and Benito Guerra were 155-175 kg heavier than the R4. The Subaru N4 was said to be about 65 kg heavier than the R4. Riku Tahko’s N4 was only 82 kg heavier than Juha Salo’s R4. It remained a mystery why.

They’re still far away from the 1300 kg min. weight.

The weight/power ratio (1200 kg / 290-300 hp) for a S2000 is 4,00 – 4,13. For a R4 to have the same ratio it should have 336 – 348 hp.

Still a long way to go.

[AndyRAC]

Why are they bothering to equalise them - completely different cars. Why the S2000's were classed as N4 is beyond me.
All it's done is make the GpN/ Production cars more expensive. And that's another thing - these cars are no longer 'showroom' class, as they were meant to be.

[donlorean]

Why are they bothering to equalise them - completely different cars. Why the S2000's were classed as N4 is beyond me.
All it's done is make the GpN/ Production cars more expensive. And that's another thing - these cars are no longer 'showroom' class, as they were meant to be.

FIA will not make new group N homologations in future. Car will be homologated in group R. And S2000 is going to end also. One reason is that those S2000 cars are so damn expecive. Many S2000 drivers are planning to change to R4 as soon as they are available... R4 is expencive but not as much than S2000.

[sindroms]

Quite interesting to compare R4 vs. S2000 vs.WRC. Jari Ketomaa vs. Ott Tanak vs. Georg Gross.
"Rally Kurzeme 2011" results - autorally.lv - Latvian Rally Championship and Cup contest 2011 (rallykurzeme.lv) (http://autorally.lv/2011/?pid=6&lng=en&id=7&comp=1&ss=1)

Both of them Jari and Ott was for a first time on Kurzeme roads, Gross was driving Kurzeme last year. Ketomaa was forced to retire after SS1 due to suspension failure, but went back on second day.

[Mirek]

Both Pech and Orsák complained in Barum that the suspension parts of R4 kit for Evo IX are way too fragile. Pech returns to gr.N spec. saying that he would prefer to be a bit slower but in finish...

[N.O.T]

the N4 class is dying a slow death in world rallying...soon we only going to see them in village events. Especially with the withdrawal from the rally scene of subaru and Mitsubishi and their respective models the evo and the impreza.

[Sulland]

Maybe the only thing they need to do is to change the exhaust, so you hear them, and maybe a stronger gearbox. They are cheap and good for national series.

[dimviii]

Both Pech and Orsák complained in Barum that the suspension parts of R4 kit for Evo IX are way too fragile. Pech returns to gr.N spec. saying that he would prefer to be a bit slower but in finish...
Google PYeklada (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=cs&sl=cs&tl=en&u=http://www.ewrc.cz/ewrc/show.php%3Fid%3D17652)

[bluuford]

Quite interesting to compare R4 vs. S2000 vs.WRC. Jari Ketomaa vs. Ott Tanak vs. Georg Gross.
"Rally Kurzeme 2011" results - autorally.lv - Latvian Rally Championship and Cup contest 2011 (rallykurzeme.lv) (http://autorally.lv/2011/?pid=6&lng=en&id=7&comp=1&ss=1)

Both of them Jari and Ott was for a first time on Kurzeme roads, Gross was driving Kurzeme last year. Ketomaa was forced to retire after SS1 due to suspension failure, but went back on second day.

Another factor here was ultra high speed on stages and Fiesta had to run long time on limiter. Take a look on this onboard: Rally Kurzeme 2011, PS-4 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKeGqpgHdR8) You can imagine what S2000 cars are doing here.

Just for example some average speeds (and Gross, Tänak and Ketomaa positions):
SS1 105 km/h (Ketomaa, Gross, Tänak)
SS2 128 km/h (Gross, Tänak)
SS3 128 km/h (Gross, Tänak)
Day 2
SS4 121 km/h (Ketomaa, Gross, Tänak)
SS5 119 km/h (Gross, Tänak, Ketomaa)
SS6 126 km/h (Gross, Ketomaa, Tänak)
SS7 125 km/h (Gross, Tänak, Ketomaa)
SS8 69 km/h (Tänak, Gross, Ketomaa)
SS9 116 km/h (Ketomaa, Tänak, Gross)
SS10 119 km/h (Tänak, Ketomaa, Gross)
SS11 70 km/h (Tänak, Gross, Ketomaa)

[Co-driven]

Both Pech and Orsák complained in Barum that the suspension parts of R4 kit for Evo IX are way too fragile. Pech returns to gr.N spec. saying that he would prefer to be a bit slower but in finish...


Brazilian driver Paulo Nobre had problems with the suspension of the Evo X R4 in Greece too. I don't know if it is the same problem as Ketomaa had, but is another sign of what Mirek just said.

http://www.palmeirinha.com.br/admin/uploads/a4039af4cb5a42699243c0d6ee5d72d8.jpg

[OldF]

In fast rallies like Rally Kurzeme, the biggest disadvantage for a S2000 is the top speed as has been already mentioned here. Vauhdin Maailma made their traditional speed measurements at NORF and at Lankamaa on long straight this year fastest was Juha Salo with his Mitsu R4.



Salo 196 km/h (R4)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Ogier 193 km/h[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Wilson 193 km/h[/*:m:2qcallgm]
H. Solberg 193 km/h[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Kuipers 193 km/h[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Latvala 192 km/h[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Östberg 192 km/h[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Räikkönen 192 km/h[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Quassimi 192 km/h[/*:m:2qcallgm]
P.Solberg 192 km/h[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Ketomaa 192 km/h[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Eskelinen 192 km/h (N4)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Loeb 191 km/h[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Fuchs 191 km/h (N4)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Nikara 191 km/h (N4)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Novikov 190 km/h[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Andersson 190 km/h (R4)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Flodin 190 km/h (N4)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Ketomäki 188 km/h (N4)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Lehessaari 188 km/h (N4)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Kosciuszko 187 km/h (N4)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Paddon 185 km/h (N4)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Pakarinen 185 km/h (N4)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Sordo 184 km/h[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Meeke 184 km/h[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Oliveira 183 km/h[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Araûjo 183 km/h[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Therman 183 km/h[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Tahko 183 km/h (N4)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Gorban 183 km/h (N4)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Salomaa 182 km/h (N4)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Pajunen 182 km/h (R3)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Virtanen 182 km/h (N4)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Pulkkinen 181 km/h (N4)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Saliuk 179 km/h (N4)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Tagirov 179 km/h (N4)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Neiksans 178 km/h (N4)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Lappi 178 km/h (R2)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Kirvesmäki 178 km/h[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Plangi 177 km/h (R3)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Korhonen 175 km/h (R2)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Hytönen 174 km/h (R2)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Reeves 173 km/h (R2)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Evans 173 km/h (R2)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Reidmann 173 km/h (R2)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
van der Martel 172 km/h (R2)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Kaur 172 km/h (R2)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Pinomäki 172 km/h (R2)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Villanueva 172 km/h (N4)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Kiviniemi 171 km/h (N3)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Laivola 171 km/h (S2000)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Fisher 171 km/h (R2)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Turkki 170 km/h (N4)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Lehtovirta 170 km/h (N4)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Henriksson 170 km/h (R2)[/*:m:2qcallgm]
Baldoni 170 km/h (R2)[/*:m:2qcallgm]

This tells something, only one S2000 among the 56 with highest top speed. Even most of the WRC Academy drivers with a R2 car had higher top speed than the S2000s.

[Mirek]

Seems a little bit strange to me because I'm sure Škoda went with longer gears. In Ypres or Barum they had around 180 km/h and for sure they didn't have shorter gears in NORF (last year they run 184 km/h). Peugeots in Barum had 182 km/h maximum.

But one thing is clear from Your table - the WRC Minis actually were down on power and the impression largely discussed here was right.

[dimviii]

This place they have measure how long straight it has after the last corner?wrc cars were on limiter?

[OldF]

This place they have measure how long straight it has after the last corner?wrc cars were on limiter?


Sorry, it was not Lankamaa but Laukaa. It’s a little over 1 km straight near the finish. Sebastian Lindholm did the highest speed ever measured in 2004 with the Peugeot 307, 211 km/h.

Rally Map | Rally-Maps.com (http://www.rally-maps.com/map/position/1/15/62.34628312791069/25.980520248413086)

I can’t come up with any reason why a S2000 would be slower than a R2 except with shorter gears. Wasn’t about 165 km/h with the shortest gears?

[Mirek]

That was Punto with short gearbox. Fabia or Fiesta doesn't have such short gears even for very technical asphalt events. I think there must be a mistake. S2000 cars must have been around 180 km/h there.

[bt52b]

New FIA Regional class R4T is supposed to be a cheaper alternative to S2000 and RRC :

1.6 turbo (slightly bigger restrictor)[/*:m:32pq53m0]
five speed seq' box[/*:m:32pq53m0]
4wd[/*:m:32pq53m0]
priced about €150k[/*:m:32pq53m0]


FIA to announce at December WMSC

[Walach]

Who will also bet that the final prize will be higher than €150k? ;)

[dimviii]

not me!

[Barreis]

Aha.

[OldF]

I got the results for the rest of the drivers of the top speed measurements from NORF SS2, Laukaa. The top speed for most of the rest was between 163 km/h – 169 km/h and for the three slowest between 153 km/h – 155 km/h. They who performed the measurements were also surprised by the results.

Last year they had some technical problems so there’s nothing to compare with. Pity.

57 Niinimäe Ford 170
58 Crugnola Ford 170
59 Pärn Subaru 170
60 Ortfeldt Subaru 170
61 Ahlin Ford 169
62 Breen Ford 169
63 Shaymiev Peugeot 169
64 Tukiainen Citroën 169
65 Dahlström Ford 168
66 Szabo Mitsubishi 168
67 Sousa Ford 167
68 Kruuda Skoda 167
69 Burger Subaru 167
70 Hänninen Skoda 165
71 Komsi Mitsubishi 165
72 Veikkanen Renault 165
73 R. Kuipers Ford 164
74 Gassner Skoda 164
75 Brynildsen Skoda 164
76 Nieminen Ford 164
77 Semerad Mitsubishi * 164
78 Prokop Ford 163
79 Tänak Ford 163
80 Turán Ford 163
81 Mikkelsen Skoda 163
82 Kangur Honda 163
83 Taylor Ford 163
84 Cerny Ford 163
85 Jokinen Honda 162
86 Yritys Citroën 161
87 Zivian Mitsubishi 161
88 Itkonen Citroën 161
89 Valme Citroën 161
90 Hirvonen Ford * 160
91 Lemes Ford 159
92 Pasanen Subaru 158
93 Suarez Ford 157
94 Berg Ford 156
95 Hämäläinen Ford 155
96 Weurlander Citroën 155
97 Lindroos Skoda 154
98 Llovera Fiat 153
99 Kariste Ford 152
100 Kikireshko Mitsubishi 151
101 Al Shamsi Subaru 151
102 De Sanctis Mitsubishi 150
103 Guerra Mitsubishi 149
104 Kortelainen (9)Suzuki 149
105 Pyhälä (7) Skoda 142
106 Siikonen Skoda 116

[Hartusvuori]

Thank you, OldF! This had troubled me also and I had been planning to ask for those numbers too. Yet, this doesn't explain the "slowness" of S2000s on the most definite top speed place.

[Mirek]

It seems to me to be too strange to believe.

[dimviii]

It seems to me to be too strange to believe.

Νοτ strange Mirek,depends of the length of the road.

Previous post with max speed from OldF maybe was at a straight that was very long with s2000 cars at limiter for time.If so the n4 cars had the time(road length) to rev as high as they could.
In later post with max speeds if the straight wasn t so long as the previous,of course s2000 cars accelerate faster out of last corner.They left last corner with more km/h + better acceleration(shorter gearing+traction etc)
To say it more simple...lets say that we have for a 0-800 meters a s2000 and a n4.
At 400 meters we are going to have very close times for both,but if we measure them at 800 meters the n4 car will be ahead due to high gearing,and because the s2000 car is going to run the last 200-300 meters at limiter.
Thats why i say that depends of the length of the straight they measure the cars. :)

[Mirek]

I don't say it's strange because of N4 cars but because of R2 cars. I simply can't imagine how could Hänninen in S2000 (with enough top speed - not on limiter) be slower than Fiesta R2 guys. The same is when it comes to Radik Shaymiev etc...

PS No way Hänninen could have been on rpm limiter at 165 km/h. In Finland the top speed of Fabia was cca 180 km/h.

[OldF]

Νοτ strange Mirek,depends of the length of the road.

Previous post with max speed from OldF maybe was at a straight that was very long with s2000 cars at limiter for time.If so the n4 cars had the time(road length) to rev as high as they could.
In later post with max speeds if the straight wasn t so long as the previous,of course s2000 cars accelerate faster out of last corner.They left last corner with more km/h + better acceleration(shorter gearing+traction etc)
To say it more simple...lets say that we have for a 0-800 meters a s2000 and a n4.
At 400 meters we are going to have very close times for both,but if we measure them at 800 meters the n4 car will be ahead due to high gearing,and because the s2000 car is going to run the last 200-300 meters at limiter.
Thats why i say that depends of the length of the straight they measure the cars. :)

Both parts from the same stage and the same part of the stage Rally Map | Rally-Maps.com (http://www.rally-maps.com/map/position/1/14/62.343155814515214/25.98163604736328) a 1 km long straight from departure from the previous turn to the arriving to the next.

In the first part the 56th fastest. They didn’t have room for more in the magazine. The 57th – 106th fastest I got when I send a query to the magazine.

It’s also amazing that most of the S2000s (both Skoda and Ford) was in a range of 4 km/h (153 – 157).

[Mirek]

Kenneth, do You really believe that an R2 car accelerates better than S2000 car? :)

[OldF]

Kenneth, do You really believe that an R2 car accelerates better than S2000 car? :)

No way, that's why this is so strange.

Concerning the top speed, maybe is was locked up with the info when Anton Alen was first time in NORF. He said that he tried longer gears but found out that acceleration wasn’t good enough and he used the ratios which gave a top speed of 165 km/h. But that was several years ago and the S2000 has developed a lot since those days.

[Mirek]

That was the case of Punto. Fabia or Peugeot has higher top speed, especially on fast events they often run 180+. I know that for sure for Ypres, Sweden, Mecsek or Barum (here usually only one leg).

[dimviii]

Both parts from the same stage and the same part of the stage Rally Map | Rally-Maps.com (http://www.rally-maps.com/map/position/1/14/62.343155814515214/25.98163604736328) a 1 km long straight from departure from the previous turn to the arriving to the next.

In the first part the 56th fastest. They didn’t have room for more in the magazine. The 57th – 106th fastest I got when I send a query to the magazine.

It’s also amazing that most of the S2000s (both Skoda and Ford) was in a range of 4 km/h (153 – 157).


something is not right here....if is the same straight...
1km long this indicates that must be on limiter.So they don t run the long one with 180km/h

Laivola 171 km/h (S2000) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Prokop Ford 163
Tänak Ford 163
Turán Ford 163
Mikkelsen Skoda 163
Sousa Ford 167
Kruuda Skoda 167
Hänninen Skoda 165!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gassner Skoda 164
Brynildsen Skoda 164

[Mirek]

I'm ABSOLUTELY sure that Juho's Fabia had higher top speed. I can right now ask about car of Kruuda, if You want, but I'm sure it was more as well. To my knowledge such short gearbox for Fabia even doesn't exist :)

[dimviii]

I'm ABSOLUTELY sure that Juho's Fabia had higher top speed. I can right now ask about car of Kruuda, if You want, but I'm sure it was more as well. To my knowledge such short gearbox for Fabia even doesn't exist :)

maybe its not right that the straight had 1 km long.1km is definetely enough for rev limiter!
Maybe only Laivola had a long gearbox?
Mirek please ask for Kruuda just to see if these top speeds they published are in conjuction with his gearbox.

[Mirek]

maybe its not right that the straight had 1 km long.1km is definetely enough for rev limiter!

If it was that way, R2 cars could never be faster than S2000. That is just impossible.


Maybe only Laivola had a long gearbox?

For sure not, anyway long gearbox used in Barum by Peugeot is 182 km/h :)


Mirek please ask for Kruuda just to see if these top speeds they published are in conjuction with his gearbox.

Question sent...

[Mirek]

So Kruuda really had short gearbox, but top speed was 172 km/h.

[OldF]

Thanks Mirek for solving the mystery. Probably all S2000s were on short gears. If top speed is 172 km/h and he had 167 km/h on gravel, that’s IMO not so big difference.

In the same issue of Vauhdin Maailma JML told that the Fiesta has 194 km/h as top speed (Focus had 215 km/h).

When looking at the both Honda Civic R3, the difference in top speed was big. The option for Honda is 160 km/h, 180 km/h and 195 km/h (surprisingly high speed the third one) http://www.jasmotorsport.com/Pdf/256.pdf . What caused the big difference between them because if Kangur had a top speed of 163 km/h he couldn’t be on the shortest gears.

Plangi 177 km/h
Kangur 163 km/h

[OldF]

maybe its not right that the straight had 1 km long.1km is definetely enough for rev limiter!
Maybe only Laivola had a long gearbox?
Mirek please ask for Kruuda just to see if these top speeds they published are in conjuction with his gearbox.

It’s 1 km long straight. Rally Map | Rally-Maps.com (http://www.rally-maps.com/map/position/1/14/62.343155814515214/25.98163604736328)

Put the hand (not your own ;) ) on the exit of the previous turn and you can see the distance from start and finish. (~ 10,2 km from start and ~ 1,5 km from finish). The entry of the turn after the straight is at ~ 11,2 km from start and ~ 0,5 km from finish.

[bluuford]

It’s 1 km long straight. Rally Map | Rally-Maps.com (http://www.rally-maps.com/map/position/1/14/62.343155814515214/25.98163604736328)

Put the hand (not your own ;) ) on the exit of the previous turn and you can see the distance from start and finish. (~ 10,2 km from start and ~ 1,5 km from finish). The entry of the turn after the straight is at ~ 11,2 km from start and ~ 0,5 km from finish.

Maybe you can ask the maximum deviation allowed by the producer of the radar?

[Rally_LV]

Ketomaa before Latvian rally in small interview say, that from first rally (in may) Mitsubishi Evo R4 now is 0,2 - 0,3 seconds faster..
Ketom (http://www.go4speed.lv/news/ketoma-latvija-vietejos-rallija-posmus-apmekle-vairak-skatitaju-neka-somija)

[sindroms]

Ketomaa before "Rally Latvia 2011" about R4 group - Jari Ketomaa and Raimonds Kisels before Rally Latvia2011 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBGcmrkO7O8)

[Sulland]

This is year 2 of the life of R4.

Will they have gotten closer to S2000, or will the gap stay the same - or will S2000 be even quicker than them in 2012?

[Mirek]

I can say that in our championship R4 proved to be a failure. Probably no fast driver in R4 in this season. Pech went for S2000, Orsák back in N4 (no chance against S2000 in class 2 while in N4 he can at least win class 3).

[br21]

There were some rumours about homologation of sequential gearboxes, but it didn't happen so gaps should be similar as last season I think.

[dimviii]

There were some rumours about homologation of sequential gearboxes, but it didn't happen so gaps should be similar as last season I think.

maybe they haven t announce yet.Drenth-ppg-samsonas have already build and sell sequential gear boxes for evo ix-x.Must be a reason for that.

[Mirek]

KAPS has been making sequential gearboxes for Imprezas and Lancers for ages. They are mostly for American market I think.

I know that Dutch allowed sequential gearboxes in N4/R4 in their championship for 2012 but such cars must run in class with WRC/A8...

[dimviii]

KAPS has been making sequential gearboxes for Imprezas and Lancers for ages. They are mostly for American market I think.

I know that Dutch allowed sequential gearboxes in N4/R4 in their championship for 2012 but such cars must run in class with WRC/A8...

thats right Mirek,but when 3 new gear box builders,manufacture a new gear box before some months there is a reason.Clearly they want to be ready for sales when the sequential will be announced.

[TyPat107]

KAPS has been making sequential gearboxes for Imprezas and Lancers for ages. They are mostly for American market I think.

I know that Dutch allowed sequential gearboxes in N4/R4 in their championship for 2012 but such cars must run in class with WRC/A8...

I don't know of anyone here running the KAPS box, I do know the Subaru Rally Team USA is using Modena boxes though.

[br21]

there were rumours and some moves to homologate sequential boxes for r4 cars, but it didn't happen for this upcoming season... Many manufacturers are offering those sequential gearboxes as there is market for them - some open class rally cars, race and hillclimb cars, some "amateur" fanatics... plus of course possibility of homologating them for r4 one day...
dimvii, what boxes you usually use in evos in Greece? you can PM with that...

[dimviii]

there were rumours and some moves to homologate sequential boxes for r4 cars, but it didn't happen for this upcoming season... Many manufacturers are offering those sequential gearboxes as there is market for them - some open class rally cars, race and hillclimb cars, some "amateur" fanatics... plus of course possibility of homologating them for r4 one day...
dimvii, what boxes you usually use in evos in Greece? you can PM with that...
+1 thats right.

we use all boxes are well known worldwide,most of them prefer Drenth although.In our team we use Drenth too.But i ve seen various boxes with good reliability.

[Gard]

Skoda S2000- Fiesta RRC 1-0
Mountain Rally Norway

[bf1_IRL]

N17? / R4 Impreza Saloon :) https://p.twimg.com/AjGVQ4ACEAA54_c.jpg

[Mise]

I can say that in our championship R4 proved to be a failure. Probably no fast driver in R4 in this season. Pech went for S2000, Orsák back in N4 (no chance against S2000 in class 2 while in N4 he can at least win class 3).

Juha Salo (Mitsu Evo X R4) lost to Esapekka Lappi (Ford Fiesta) 12,9 seconds in Finnish Championchip race in Riihimäki Ralli.
They drove a total of 93 km. Juha Salo has ruled finnish rallying so the cars should be some kind of factor.

[Walach]

N17? / R4 Impreza Saloon :) https://p.twimg.com/AjGVQ4ACEAA54_c.jpg
Well, the legend is back!

[Mirek]

That's very nice car :)

STI wrote they would support Andreas Aigner and Jarkko Nikara in IRC. This car for them? :)

Another photo with Toshi:

http://jpx.responsejp.com/jpx/images/2012/01/13/168296_1.jpg

[Sulland]

Well, the legend is back!

Why will this be better than the hatchback ?

Is Subaru also working on a 1600 car ?

[Ucci]

As much as I wish for R4 to be equal aginst S2000, I'm afraid this will not happen. We mentioned in many topics already and the situation is still the same: S2000 are pure racing cars (weight distribution, balance, handling, brakes...) and R4 is still yust a version of a normal street legal car. IMHO more Euro's is invested in the development of S2000 versions as N4/R4.
Therefore I'm so happy for every top result of a N4/R4 driver against S2000 drivers (Harrach for example last week).

[OldF]

Juha Salo (Mitsu Evo X R4) lost to Esapekka Lappi (Ford Fiesta) 12,9 seconds in Finnish Championchip race in Riihimäki Ralli.
They drove a total of 93 km. Juha Salo has ruled finnish rallying so the cars should be some kind of factor.

Even the 34 mm restrictor for N4/R4 cars in FRC didn’t help this time.

[pantealex]

Even the 34 mm restrictor for N4/R4 cars in FRC didn’t help this time.

FRC: N4/FIN-R has 1mm bigger than R4

[Juha_Koo]

Juha Salo (Mitsu Evo X R4) lost to Esapekka Lappi (Ford Fiesta) 12,9 seconds in Finnish Championchip race in Riihimäki Ralli.
They drove a total of 93 km. Juha Salo has ruled finnish rallying so the cars should be some kind of factor.

They definately are are a factor, in Riihimäki S2000 was faster on small road but Salo's R4 again was faster on big road. So a lot depends from the stage characteristics. We should also not forget that despite this was EP's first rally with S2000, he is one hell of a fast guy...

[Mise]

They definately are are a factor, in Riihimäki S2000 was faster on small road but Salo's R4 again was faster on big road. So a lot depends from the stage characteristics. We should also not forget that despite this was EP's first rally with S2000, he is one hell of a fast guy...

One factor was the wet snow. Salo had to sweep the road so that propably cost him a few seconds too.
But as you said one has to be fast to be able to win Salo.

[vkangas]

The R4 situation is really sad for Tommi Mäkinen Racing also. Let's hope they did not put everything to the Subaru R4 project. Tommi has been very much promoting R4 as long as it has existed. He has been quite disappointed because R4 rules came to be so limiting.

[OldF]

FRC: N4/FIN-R has 1mm bigger than R4

I couldn’t find any mention of R4 having a 33 mm in the technical regulations. On the other hand the FRC sporting regulations says the class 4 is Group N, FIA R4 and Super 2000 rally