Donkey of the race - Turkish GP [Archive]

Ranger

8th May 2011, 14:39

Schumacher looked a bit too aggressive at the start.

I'll give it to Ferrari's pit crew though. The lack of points didnt justify Felipe's drive today.

EDIT: DRS needs to be available all the time. Most passes into Turn 12 was candy from babies.

ioan

8th May 2011, 14:40

Can we just choose KERS and DRS and be done with it? I have never been left so cold by an F1 race with that amount of overtaking.

Agreed.
It was the same last race also, and it will be the same as long as these gimmicks are part of F1. We'll get to the point where people would think that this is what real racing is about. Heck we already have people claiming this is great racing.

Koz

8th May 2011, 14:40

Poor pitstops, DRS and Pirelli.

donKey jote

8th May 2011, 14:42

Michael who? :p :arrows: :dozey: :erm:

ioan

8th May 2011, 14:43

Schumacher looked a bit too aggressive at the start.

I'll give it to Ferrari's pit crew though. The lack of points didnt justify Felipe's drive today.

The Ferrari pit stops for Felipe were abysmal.
He went up to 5th from 19th on the grid and then they kept losing him places he fought for on the track and putting him back behind the same cars again and again. The last pit stop was horribly slow to say the least.
He should have left the team last season after Germany, they don't try hard at all when it comes to supporting him in a race.

N4D13

8th May 2011, 14:45

BDunnell

8th May 2011, 14:45

Agreed.
It was the same last race also, and it will be the same as long as these gimmicks are part of F1. We'll get to the point where people would think that this is what real racing is about. Heck we already have people claiming this is great racing.

Although, I would point out that when we see great racing, there are those who castigate those involved for driving dangerously.

BDunnell

8th May 2011, 14:48

I would say that losing time in the last pitstop was Felipe's fault alone. The right rear tyre was still spinning, and -correct me if I'm wrong- that wouldn't have happened had Massa kept the brake pedal down, would it?

Which is a pretty elementary error. The poor chap just looks generally out of sorts, and I wonder whether he will ever win an F1 race again. Some of this may be down to the team, but when a driver suffers a downturn in performance it is surely never possible to remove all the blame from their own shoulders. It is still, I feel, open to debate as to whether Massa is in any way the same driver as he was before the Hungary accident.

ioan

8th May 2011, 14:50

I would say that losing time in the last pitstop was Felipe's fault alone. The right rear tyre was still spinning, and -correct me if I'm wrong- that wouldn't have happened had Massa kept the brake pedal down, would it?

9.3 seconds? Did that tire keep spinning for 6 seconds even though the car had already stop? You mean he stopped without breaking? Strange thing that everything is Felipe's fault at Ferrari.

Hawkmoon

8th May 2011, 14:50

The Ferrari pit stops for Felipe were abysmal.
He went up to 5th from 19th on the grid and then they kept losing him places he fought for on the track and putting him back behind the same cars again and again. The last pit stop was horribly slow to say the least.
He should have left the team last season after Germany, they don't try hard at all when it comes to supporting him in a race.

I would say that losing time in the last pitstop was Felipe's fault alone. The right rear tyre was still spinning, and -correct me if I'm wrong- that wouldn't have happened had Massa kept the brake pedal down, would it?

Of the three issues that cost Massa time one was clearly his fault (running off the road in turn 8), one was Ferrari's (slow stop that cost him a place to Hamilton) and the worst was probably Massa's fault for not keep his foot on the brake during his last stop.

So ioan, will you accept that Massa contributed to his poor result or just blame it all on Ferrari?

N4D13

8th May 2011, 14:52

9.3 seconds? Did that tire keep spinning for 6 seconds even though the car had already stop? You mean he stopped without breaking? Strange thing that everything is Felipe's fault at Ferrari.
I would find even more strange that every time Felipe has a bad race, it's Ferrari/Santander/Alonso's fault. But maybe it's just my biased perception as an Alonso fan. :p

And BTW, I wouldn't say that the pitstop in which Massa lost a place to Hamilton was a mistake by Ferrari -4.6 seconds isn't really bad-, it's just that McLaren did a fantastic pitstop.

ioan

8th May 2011, 14:55

Of the three issues that cost Massa time one was clearly his fault (running off the road in turn 8), one was Ferrari's (slow stop that cost him a place to Hamilton) and the worst was probably Massa's fault for not keep his foot on the brake during his last stop.

So ioan, will you accept that Massa contributed to his poor result or just blame it all on Ferrari?

And who triggered all?
Why wasn't he 5th or 4th after the first round of pitstops and instead he was back behind Hamilton and Rosberg again?

Ferrari are a bunch of clowns who effed up his great race in the first top and then kept doing it stint when he made up place again and again.

You sure wouldn't have overdriven the car and made a slight mistake in 58 laps after you were shafted again and again by those who are supposed to help you do better than the opposition. I am glad I don't sit on the same side of the fence with people who only blame the driver when he does all he can and gets shafted.

Good that Vettel and RBR will keep Ferrari from winning anything in the foreseeable future, as they don't deserve it anyway.

ioan

8th May 2011, 14:56

I would find even more strange that every time Felipe has a bad race, it's Ferrari/Santander/Alonso's fault. But maybe it's just my biased perception as an Alonso fan. :p

Bingo.

AndyL

8th May 2011, 14:57

9.3 seconds? Did that tire keep spinning for 6 seconds even though the car had already stop? You mean he stopped without breaking? Strange thing that everything is Felipe's fault at Ferrari.

Did you actually see it? Clearly after he'd stopped he took his foot off the brake, and clutch drag caused the wheel to spin. If he'd kept his foot on the brake the wheel could not have spun.

I couldn't say whether this was Felipe's fault without knowing whether he was supposed to release the brakes or not. It may be that they would normally release the brakes to prevent boiling the fluid, in which case the cause would be a clutch problem.

ioan

8th May 2011, 15:01

Did you actually see it? Clearly after he'd stopped he took his foot off the brake, and clutch drag caused the wheel to spin. If he'd kept his foot on the brake the wheel could not have spun.

I couldn't say whether this was Felipe's fault without knowing whether he was supposed to release the brakes or not. It may be that they would normally release the brakes to prevent boiling the fluid, in which case the cause would be the dragging clutch.

Yes I saw the whole bloody circus.
And while it might happen for a driver to make a mistake I doubt they would need 6 seconds to get their foot back on the brake.
Still RBR consistently 3.1 to 3.2 seconds per stop, Ferrari for Felipe 4+, 6+ and 9+ for the ones I could catch the timing. That's a bunch of places lost when the drivers were separate by 05. to 1 second on the track.

Anyway the race is over and we can't change it anymore, but it was getting laughable.

Hawkmoon

8th May 2011, 15:02

And who triggered all?
Why wasn't he 5th or 4th after the first round of pitstops and instead he was back behind Hamilton and Rosberg again?

Ferrari are a bunch of clowns who effed up his great race in the first top and then kept doing it stint when he made up place again and again.

You sure wouldn't have overdriven the car and made a slight mistake in 58 laps after you were shafted again and again by those who are supposed to help you do better than the opposition. I am glad I don't sit on the same side of the fence with people who only blame the driver when he does all he can and gets shafted.

Good that Vettel and RBR will keep Ferrari from winning anything in the foreseeable future, as they don't deserve it anyway.

The slow first stop cost Massa 1 place. Massa chucking into the scenery cost him 3 or 4. No matter how much you want to deny it Massa's error cost him a lot more than Ferrari's 'lack' of performace (it wasn't an error, just a slower stop than Hamilton).
Even after both of these incidents he was still on for a good race until he didn't keep his foot on the break while up on the jacks preventing the right rear from going on properly. That cost him dearly.

How the hell Massa blameless in all of that?

ioan

8th May 2011, 15:06

The slow first stop cost Massa 1 place.

2 places not 1. And if it wasn't for that he wouldn't have found himself 13th at one time and having to try to overtake in impossible places.

But then again as I said each to his own and I am glad I don't care about the red team anymore.

Rollo

8th May 2011, 15:08

Did you actually see it? Clearly after he'd stopped he took his foot off the brake, and clutch drag caused the wheel to spin. If he'd kept his foot on the brake the wheel could not have spun.

I didn't. OneHD's Live Streaming Servers crashed and we missed heaps.

Donkey of the race for me was OneHD, the broadcaster in Australia. This was quite literally the worst broadcast I have ever seen of any sporting event in my lifetime.

N4D13

8th May 2011, 15:10

But then again as I said each to his own and I am glad I don't care about the red team anymore.
:eek:

steveaki13

8th May 2011, 15:52

I think Schumi was at fault against Petrov, but his other incidents were more people bashing him so although he had a poor race, lets not say he was at fault for all.

As for my Donkey.

Ferrari tarffic light system.
Liuzzi (He may have had issues but finished 2 laps behind his team mate and 5 laps down on Vettel).

Not many others really.

Maldonado looked poor but then Rubens only finished a couple of places ahead.

markabilly

8th May 2011, 16:31

Petrov.

He straight lined the corner, and had over cooked it, slamming on the brakes, when he went past MS.

MS should have done a better job of dealing with his stupid move but did not.

Then he banged into his team mate and pushed NH into pit lane.....

then there is the ferrari pit strangeness for massa...opps i mean strategy for Massa

markabilly

8th May 2011, 16:33

Can we just choose KERS and DRS and be done with it? I have never been left so cold by an F1 race with that amount of overtaking.

yeah, I had the same feeling. Should have been very very exciting, but it just was not........

truefan72

8th May 2011, 18:35

truefan72

8th May 2011, 18:40

I have no complaints about Kers and DRS, maybe it was a bit easy in this race, due to its placement and that the effect would be even more advantageous because the zone starts on an incline. BUT its time to quit complaining about kers, DRS or pirelli tyres. We are 4 races into the season and this is the reality.

To me the Donkey goes to MSC ( who i actually sorta root for to do well these days ) too aggressive and a few to many errors. He's got to know when the battle is over and concentrate on the next fight, and with a guy with so much experience, he should know races are long and not won in the first lap. Especially this year.

The other Donkeys are the mclaren and ferrari pit crews who cost their drivers positions, although the final massa pit problem was his own fault.

BDunnell

8th May 2011, 18:47

keysersoze

8th May 2011, 19:42

Petrov.

He straight lined the corner, and had over cooked it, slamming on the brakes, when he went past MS.

MS should have done a better job of dealing with his stupid move but did not.

Then he banged into his team mate and pushed NH into pit lane.....

How can you say he straight-lined the corner? Clearly, Schumacher hit him first, after VP blew by him, and MS forced the Russian to go straight. MS even admitted the incident was his fault.

As for Nick, he took a chance on the outside line, didn't have the speed to stay alongside, and lost. Vitaly had the inside line, and on exit had his rear wheels even with Nick's fronts. The German had to back off.

VP was up to 5th at one point, ahead of Button, Massa, Nico, and Nick.

Mia 01

8th May 2011, 21:10

I didn´t liked the three stop strategy for Jenson, he could have been fourth.

ioan

8th May 2011, 21:12

I think Schumi was at fault against Petrov, ...

Huh?

Schumi was turning in and Petrov outbreaked himself and run straight through the corner collecting MS' front wing in the process.

ioan

8th May 2011, 21:13

Petrov.

He straight lined the corner, and had over cooked it, slamming on the brakes, when he went past MS.

MS should have done a better job of dealing with his stupid move but did not.

Then he banged into his team mate and pushed NH into pit lane.....

then there is the ferrari pit strangeness for massa...opps i mean strategy for Massa

^^^ This!

ioan

8th May 2011, 21:14

How can you say he straight-lined the corner? Clearly, Schumacher hit him first...

Watch it again, than we can discuss it maybe.

ioan

8th May 2011, 21:15

I didn´t liked the three stop strategy for Jenson, he could have been fourth.

With the Pirelli's it's a lottery. If you're lucky the tires hold a bit better, if not they are crap like most of the time.

Daniel

8th May 2011, 21:38

Pirelli for making softs that last the same amount of time as hards

Roamy

8th May 2011, 21:40

What a sh!tbag Schumacher is. The overrated idiot constantly turns down into people passing him.

truefan72

8th May 2011, 21:52

How can you say he straight-lined the corner? Clearly, Schumacher hit him first, after VP blew by him, and MS forced the Russian to go straight. MS even admitted the incident was his fault.

As for Nick, he took a chance on the outside line, didn't have the speed to stay alongside, and lost. Vitaly had the inside line, and on exit had his rear wheels even with Nick's fronts. The German had to back off.

VP was up to 5th at one point, ahead of Button, Massa, Nico, and Nick.

:up:

truefan72

8th May 2011, 21:53

Pirelli for making softs that last the same amount of time as hards

fair enough,

I thought the hard would last longer and the softs shorter too for this race
oh well,on to spain

steveaki13

8th May 2011, 23:31

Huh?

Schumi was turning in and Petrov outbreaked himself and run straight through the corner collecting MS' front wing in the process.

I agree Petrov came in too hot, I thought Schumi caused a problem for himself as he misjudged Vitaly's mistake and turned in too soon and damaged his wing. If he'd have just waited a fraction more he could have ducked under Vitaly and left him to sort himself out.

I watched an interview on BBC with Michael afterwards and he said it was his mistake turning in too soon.

I only put him at fault based on his admission that he made a slight error of timing that ultimatley cost him 20 seconds in the pits.

N. Jones

9th May 2011, 02:02

Can we just choose KERS and DRS and be done with it? I have never been left so cold by an F1 race with that amount of overtaking.
I think it is the tires more than kers and drs, although I will agree that drs is unnecessary.

Marbles

9th May 2011, 03:07

I always new MS was a twat and he reaffirmed it about a half dozen times today. I don't think he has lost too much speed but what he has lost is total control over a team, a team mate who's sole purpose is to watch his arse and an all--conquering car. Life is tough. DRS is fun for TV but it's just so wrong.

Shifter

9th May 2011, 04:17

Huh?

Schumi was turning in and Petrov outbreaked himself and run straight through the corner collecting MS' front wing in the process.

If Schu was just 'turning into' the corner normally, why was he 1 car-width from the inside of the corner? Schumacher saw Petrov's move and defended as hard as possible without blocking. Petrov was committed to an overtake, no way to slow down more and suddenly had to do all his braking and turning from a much narrower angle than he ever suspected he'd have to. I'm all for defensive driving, but MS has to know that Petrov was going to have to drive straightline into the corner after having been forced down to the very inside of the corner at corner entry. If a driver forces another that far over, better to move back a bit and prepare for revenge on corner exit.

Ari

9th May 2011, 06:12

Schumacher. Sigh.

aryan

9th May 2011, 06:59

I think the donkey was Schumacher. He was overly aggressive at the start, which cost him places. Then his racecraft was lacking in the second half of the race, sign of age, I think.

He's not going to get beter, and he's being soundly beaten by Rosberg. Time to call it at the end of the season, admit that the comeback wasn't successful, and leave everyone's memory of 7-time world champion (good and bad) alone!

555-04Q2

9th May 2011, 07:09

The Shoe for sure :(

SGWilko

9th May 2011, 10:00

I would say Schumacher.

Twice he made some very questionable moves before the final chicane (putting one of the Saubers on the grass at one point!), and misjudging his turn-in a few times.

I think he is allowing his frustration with the car to rule his head.

What struck me the most, however, was his demeanour in the BBC interview when he openly admitted he was not enjoying his racing. That to me suggests his heart is no longer in it.

He still has his ruthless streak, but he's lost some of his racecraft.

markabilly

9th May 2011, 11:51

i think he misjudged Petrov's actions. Tried to shut the door, but Petrov came in too hot, so ms was going to cut behind him and try to regain on departure, but Petrov was very hard on the brakes, slowing greatly, and MS misjudged the timing.

it was an attempt at a classic block pass, where the driver comes in too fast to do the corner right, so he gets into the inside spot, slams on the brakes and blocks the other guy from the corner.
The other driver times it right, he can cut behind and pass him on exit as the driver loses speed from the excessive braking. But this was just another petrov bone head move similar to what he did to Nick later and could have pushed schuie off the track.......

ShiftingGears

9th May 2011, 12:21

Schumacher was moving around in the braking zone for Petrov's pass, so I don't have any sympathy for Schumacher for that accident, because he created a tight situation which he couldn't react to, and secondly, it was technically against the rules. Squeezing Kobayashi off the road could've ended quite badly as well.

I think his ego took a bit of a hit in that race. By the end of the race he was hardly blocking at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XRcTiN4_R4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNpnIdm29Sk

Don't know how long these links will last.

keysersoze

9th May 2011, 13:15

Several posters have said that Vitaly came in too hot, but if you look at the replay you will notice he never locked his wheels, and produced no smoke.

It was going to be a textbook case of beating the opponent to the apex, which was Schumacher's credo back when he was really good.

Retro Formula 1

9th May 2011, 18:09

Schumacher is the obvious choice. Not only is he slow but more dangerous thn ever. Basically he's a mobile accident waiting to happen.

Without the best car and preferential team mate, he looks less than average. If he was a Rookie we would be calling for him to be thrown out.

ioan

9th May 2011, 18:58

If Schu was just 'turning into' the corner normally, why was he 1 car-width from the inside of the corner?

One car width is what a car needs.
The question is how do you think that Petrov was going to make the corner when he was driving straight ahead? :rolleyes:

ioan

9th May 2011, 19:00

Several posters have said that Vitaly came in too hot, but if you look at the replay you will notice he never locked his wheels, and produced no smoke.

Still he was driving straight ahead in the wrong direction through that corner, is that normal, maybe to fanboys.
The fact that he didn't even try to brake while running straight into another car just makes it worse. Add to this pushing Heidfeld off the track and you get the driving abilities of a Jaguar test driver (according to N. Lauda).

But hey people hate Schumacher, so who am I kidding here trying to have a discussion?!

Allyc85

9th May 2011, 19:25

Who ever chose the DRS zone to start so far back making overtaking too easy! Cars blasting past on the straights just dosnt entertain me that much!

steveaki13

9th May 2011, 20:02

But hey people hate Schumacher, so who am I kidding here trying to have a discussion?!

I have to say although I feel Schumi is struggling these last couple of seasons, I too find it amazing how many people only see fit to bash and put down a guy who is one of the greatest drivers of all time.

I really like Michael Schumacher, but I am also willing to question his driving, and pay credit when he performs well.

I get the feeling most of the Schumi bashers are once upon a time avid fans, that are bitter about his form and know no other way to express their disappointment other than abuse him.

Shifter

9th May 2011, 21:36

I like Schumacher, really. Schumacher v. Alonso produced some of my best memories of not just F1 but motorsport in general. Clash of the titans. Can't hate a guy like that.

I defended his right to race, at his age, with Merc. I still do, I just hope that he can get back to the brilliant drives of old, even if not for the lead of or win in a GP. Sad fact is, he's thrown away some point-scoring opportunities behind the wheel of the Merc, and I don't see how that can be interpreted any other way?

Daniel

9th May 2011, 21:56

Huh?

Schumi was turning in and Petrov outbreaked himself and run straight through the corner collecting MS' front wing in the process.

I have to agree. Sure Schumacher probably should have avoided the accident Petrov caused, but it was Petrov's making

ioan

9th May 2011, 23:20

For those who needed a slomo replay:

http://i53.tinypic.com/2ymhild.gif

BDunnell

9th May 2011, 23:34

I have to say although I feel Schumi is struggling these last couple of seasons, I too find it amazing how many people only see fit to bash and put down a guy who is one of the greatest drivers of all time.

I really like Michael Schumacher, but I am also willing to question his driving, and pay credit when he performs well.

I get the feeling most of the Schumi bashers are once upon a time avid fans, that are bitter about his form and know no other way to express their disappointment other than abuse him.

Not at all. I am not a 'fan' of any driver in particular, but don't see why we should avoid being critical of one merely on the grounds of his past success — success some of us feel was achieved with some more than questionable driving ethics along the way.

ioan

10th May 2011, 00:07

Not at all. I am not a 'fan' of any driver in particular, but don't see why we should avoid being critical of one merely on the grounds of his past success — success some of us feel was achieved with some more than questionable driving ethics along the way.

Being objective would be a great start, then we can move to criticizing someone on objective grounds.

ShiftingGears

10th May 2011, 01:56

For those who needed a slomo replay:

http://i53.tinypic.com/2ymhild.gif

That's quite funny, because I distinctly remember you blaming Webber for this accident:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdK5FU2Oc7E

Look at where Schumacher turns in. If you squeeze someone in the braking zone so they'll be unable to properly make the corner, and then turn in on them giving them one car width assuming that they will properly make the corner, then that doesn't make any sense, does it?

keysersoze

10th May 2011, 03:00

Glad you included the video, which clearly shows Vitaly had just started to turn in when Michael hit him. A front angle would show this even more emphatically.

Petrov wasn't going straight. If you knew anything about braking you would know that once VP starts to turn the wheel, the ONLY way he goes straight at that low speed is if he has locked up, and he never did. The wheels were always turning.

gloomyDAY

10th May 2011, 03:13

Wow, how some people can be in denial. Petrov was clearly ahead, and Schumacher should have let him run wide.
Instead Schumacher decided to turn into Petrov and lose his front wing!

Stay classy San Diego.

truefan72

10th May 2011, 06:12

MSC admitted it was his fault
so what is the argument ioan?

Retro Formula 1

10th May 2011, 10:38

For those who needed a slomo replay:

http://i53.tinypic.com/2ymhild.gif

Thanks ioan.

Your argument is that Petrov outbraked himself, yes?

Yet even AFTER Schumacher hits his rear tyre, forcing Petrovs car to the right, he still has control enough to turn back and make the corner without running off the track.

Petrov was on the inside. He had passed Schumy and if Schumy had the foresight, and thought Petrov would have run wide, he should have switched back and retaken.

He didn,t, he hit Petrov and his race-craft was lacking.

Even Schumacher, who rarely admits his mistakes, has fessed up to this one.

ioan

10th May 2011, 17:48

MSC admitted it was his fault
so what is the argument ioan?

The argument is the proof one can see or chose not to.

ioan

10th May 2011, 17:52

Wow, how some people can be in denial. Petrov was clearly ahead, and Schumacher should have let him run wide.

In fact MS should have braked hard and stop and wait to see if Petov makes the corner and only the dare go ahead with his race. Oh wait it isn't racing it's all about driving faster then the other guy on the straight using DRS, who needs to know how to overtake? Certainly not Petrov.

Well, some fall into the 5 to 10% some into the rest of 90%, nature's law! :)

Speedworx

10th May 2011, 21:04

Schumacher

Firstgear

10th May 2011, 21:20

The argument is the proof one can see or chose not to.
So now you're saying that you know better than MS?
Well, if we were talking about driving a car, maybe I'd give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you. :p
But when assessing fault in a racing incident, I'll take MS's opinion over yours in this case.

Give it up, ioan. You're sounding like St. D when he claimed to know the BS tires better than BS.

Marbles

10th May 2011, 21:53

Surely, as Brundle mentioned and pretty much any fan could see, Petrov was going to miss the apex entirely on his own and have a very slow exit. Schumacher should have kept closer to the actual racing line, he's clearly at least 1 1\2 car widths inside of it, and then cut back underneath. This is by far the better option.

steveaki13

10th May 2011, 22:47

wedge

11th May 2011, 14:58

Button - stupidly arrogant not to 4 stop and gifted Rosberg 5th

Schumi - daft manoeuvre on Petrov. Things don't change do they?

N4D13

12th May 2011, 13:11

So now you're saying that you know better than MS?
Well, if we were talking about driving a car, maybe I'd give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you. :p
But when assessing fault in a racing incident, I'll take MS's opinion over yours in this case.

Give it up, ioan. You're sounding like St. D when he claimed to know the BS tires better than BS.
The tyres really were BS, weren't they? :D