Osama Bin Laden Is Dead

[555-04Q2]

Gotta fetch my kids...I will be back!

[downtowndeco]

Sounds like you're a big fan of the Unibomber as well. Maybe you should go live with him in his shack in the mountains.

And let's get real. bin Laden flew two planes into the WTC to stop the US from pollution? Give me a break. That is your weakest argument to date,

I'm off to work. Have fun in Berkeley stewing about the death of your hero.


What if the rest of the world wants to change the West because they feel we create too much pollution with our 21st century technologies. Are they not right in wanting to stop us then? Who decides who gets their way? The guy with the bigger bomb?

Your post is very one sided in the West's favour and f#ck the rest of the world and what they think, what they believe or how they want to live their lives.

[chuck34]

If you start a fire, you better have a plan to put it out if it gets out of control.


It doesn't need fixing, it needs leaving alone

As I said, the US can do no right by some.




My God I got sucked back into this. I'm out, like I said I was gonna be because you just can't have a reasonable conversation with some people.

[cali]

Sounds like you're a big fan of the Unibomber as well. Maybe you should go live with him in his shack in the mountains.

And let's get real. bin Laden flew two planes into the WTC to stop the US from pollution? Give me a break. That is your weakest argument to date,

I'm off to work. Have fun in Berkeley stewing about the death of your hero.

Man, you do not have a clue what we are talking about here. Totally clueless. But OK, as I have understood lots of americans are so selfcentered that they cannot even understand other cultures, religion and different point of view so this is something I have to live with :D Everything different is bad and deserves to be destroyed, other civilization must follow us and live like we do - in the 21st century. Nice!

[downtowndeco]

Who is the one who feels everything that is different is bad?

"In February, 1998 Osama Bin Laden issued a statement titled "The World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders". This document states that it is the duty of all Muslims to kill all American citizens and the allies of America. According to the Jihad ideals it is okay to kill others if it is for the God; especially for the spreading of the Muslim faith (not all Muslims agree with the ideas of a Jihad)."


Man, you do not have a clue what we are talking about here. Totally clueless. But OK, as I have understood lots of americans are so selfcentered that they cannot even understand other cultures, religion and different point of view so this is something I have to live with :D Everything different is bad and deserves to be destroyed, other civilization must follow us and live like we do - in the 21st century. Nice!

[schmenke]

Here you go ant:

http://www.britannica.com/bps/additionalcontent/8/398253/Document-George-W-Bush-Declaration-of-War-on-Terrorism

The declaration of war on terrorism was directly aimed at Muslims.

Umm... no it wasn't 555. In fact, just the oposite:

"...I also want to speak tonight directly to Muslims throughout the world. We respect your faith. It’s practiced freely by many millions of Americans, and by millions more in countries that America counts as friends. Its teachings are good and peaceful, and those who commit evil in the name of Allah blaspheme the name of Allah. The terrorists are traitors to their own faith, trying, in effect, to hijack Islam itself. The enemy of America is not our many Muslim friends; it is not our many Arab friends. Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them. Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated. ..."

[Bob Riebe]

no no no no my dear Bobby-boy - USA claimed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, not that they were trying to acquire them. BTW, did you know that CIA funded Saddam for a long period of time?

OK Bob, you are clearly blindfolded and living in your own cinderella world, so it is time for me to stop argueing with you. Bye :)
I have read the reports that caused the Dem. to also believe he had them, that at the time he had no functioning one, and that he was still trying to get them. So what is your point, if you have one?
You are not arguing, you rhetoric is empty.
Have a nice day.

[JackSparrow]

Osama was the devil a vampire etc, an enemy of US,but not long ago he was a friend and an ally.So the question is what could fuel such hate on hiss part? My 2 cents,betrayal. Who here exactly knows what the Americans promised him? They used him as a pawn and threw him under the bus and they themselves created a monster.

So this was not the war on terror,but more like a 25 year old vendetta that has no end.

[Bob Riebe]

Maybe he made a scary face.
For sure Eki and you were not there and sound like childish fools.

[Bob Riebe]

Or they could look in their own back yard at someone like George W Bush who is also responsible for the death of innocent woman, children and men. We don't see a task force looking for him now do we, yet he seemed too hate the Muslim culture and wiped out just as many Muslims as Bin Laden did Westerners.Troll on troll boy, you and your brothers here must fetish love for sounding like foolish children.

[Bob Riebe]

My dear friend, If you haven't noticed then China is now the biggest super power, they have achieved this by far more clever ways - economics!ROFLMAO--http://www.smilescollection.com/smiles/fool/sc_7286.gif

[Bob Riebe]

Arguably it would've been a greater psychological blow to Al Qaeda, as having him captured alive would've caused great humiliation to their organisation and those like it.
Ja, ja Holder tries that scam and it exploded in his face.

[Bob Riebe]

I have not seen one person here defending what Osama Bin Laden and his group are doing.Liar-liar pants on fire!

[Daniel]

Osama was the devil a vampire etc, an enemy of US,but not long ago he was a friend and an ally.So the question is what could fuel such hate on hiss part? My 2 cents,betrayal. Who here exactly knows what the Americans promised him? They used him as a pawn and threw him under the bus and they themselves created a monster.

So this was not the war on terror,but more like a 25 year old vendetta that has no end.

Or perhaps he just hated the US? To assume that there is actually a reason behind all of this is to give Ozzy far too much credit.

[Bob Riebe]

Osama was the devil a vampire etc, an enemy of US,but not long ago he was a friend and an ally.So the question is what could fuel such hate on hiss part? My 2 cents,betrayal. Who here exactly knows what the Americans promised him? They used him as a pawn and threw him under the bus and they themselves created a monster.

So this was not the war on terror,but more like a 25 year old vendetta that has no end.If one want to point fingers at the U.S. for any asinine action, we should not have gotten involved when the Soviet Union went into Afghanistan, that would have worked itself out.
That was a stupid move on the U.S. part.

[Daniel]

If one want to point fingers at the U.S. for any asinine action, we should not have gotten involved when the Soviet Union went into Afghanistan, that would have worked itself out.
That was a stupid move on the U.S. part.

With respect, I don't think we know that for sure. It's like discounting the domino theory in South East Asia purely because Vietnam fell but Communism didn't go through Malaysia and into Indonesia. We have to accept that things happened the way they are and saying that they should have been done otherwise is just a guess.

[janvanvurpa]

Trust me.....I wasn't there for you. You were just lucky I was.

I served my country....

Have you?

Didn't think so.

You claim to have "served" my country....

But where's the proof that you served?

Where's the proof that you're even American?

Show us the Birth Certificate!
Show us the Long Form Service Record!!!

Personally I think you're a clever 19 y.o. liberal boy trolling just trying to make the US Right Wing look like the brainless, thoughtless, insular meatheads that they appear to be.

Show us the proof!

[Bob Riebe]

You claim to have "served" my country....

But where's the proof that you served?

Where's the proof that you're even American?

Show us the Birth Certificate!
Show us the Long Form Service Record!!!

Personally I think you're a clever 19 y.o. liberal boy trolling just trying to make the US Right Wing look like the brainless, thoughtless, insular meatheads that they appear to be.

Show us the proof!This has what to do with the thread topic?

I thought attacking posters was against forum rules.

[JackSparrow]

With respect, I don't think we know that for sure. It's like discounting the domino theory in South East Asia purely because Vietnam fell but Communism didn't go through Malaysia and into Indonesia. We have to accept that things happened the way they are and saying that they should have been done otherwise is just a guess.
So how was the monster created?

[Daniel]

You claim to have "served" my country....

But where's the proof that you served?

Where's the proof that you're even American?

Show us the Birth Certificate!
Show us the Long Form Service Record!!!

Personally I think you're a clever 19 y.o. liberal boy trolling just trying to make the US Right Wing look like the brainless, thoughtless, insular meatheads that they appear to be.

Show us the proof!

With all due respect I don't feel that tony needs to prove any of these claims to you :)

[Daniel]

So how was the monster created?

For either of us to claim to know would be hilariously stupid.

[Bob Riebe]

With respect, I don't think we know that for sure. It's like discounting the domino theory in South East Asia purely because Vietnam fell but Communism didn't go through Malaysia and into Indonesia. We have to accept that things happened the way they are and saying that they should have been done otherwise is just a guess.

To a degree I agree with you-- but one must remember the stalling of a Communist agendas was greatly influenced by the China-Russia conflict in 1969; the North Vietnamese-China conflict in 1979; and the North Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia which lasted till 1989.
It is not that Communism was not a threat, but that rather than work together, they attacked each other.

Whereas to the the Soviets credit, the reason they went into Afghanistan was similar to Bush's they went in to prevent actions on their border that Carter allowed in Iran.
Some of their tactics while there were foolish and self-defeating.

[Eki]

According to the Jihad ideals it is okay to kill others if it is for the God; especially for the spreading of the Muslim faith (not all Muslims agree with the ideas of a Jihad)."
According to Bush, it was OK to kill others if it was for "freedom"; especially for the spreading of "democracy" (not all believers in democracy agree with that stance).

[BDunnell]

To a degree I agree with you-- but one must remember the stalling of a Communist agendas was greatly influenced by the China-Russia conflict in 1969; the North Vietnamese-China conflict in 1979; and the North Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia which lasted till 1989.
It is not that Communism was not a threat, but that rather than work together, they attacked each other.

Whereas to the the Soviets credit, the reason they went into Afghanistan was similar to Bush's they went in to prevent actions on their border that Carter allowed in Iran.
Some of their tactics while there were foolish and self-defeating.

And the lack of discipline prevalent within their armed forces did not help. This was not something that suddenly reared its head once the USSR ceased to exist and the successor states became strapped for cash — it was there all along. Personally, I feel that many continue to this day to concentrate on the numerical might of the Soviet bloc's military capability without considering what you might call the human factor.

[Eki]

This has what to do with the thread topic?

I thought attacking posters was against forum rules.
Nah. If it was, Garry Walker and anthonyvop wouldn't be doing it, and you wouldn't call me a Troll Boy.

[Daniel]

To a degree I agree with you-- but one must remember the stalling of a Communist agendas was greatly influenced by the China-Russia conflict in 1969; the North Vietnamese-China conflict in 1979; and the North Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia which lasted till 1989.
It is not that Communism was not a threat, but that rather than work together, they attacked each other.

Whereas to the the Soviets credit, the reason they went into Afghanistan was similar to Bush's they went in to prevent actions on their border that Carter allowed in Iran.
Some of their tactics while there were foolish and self-defeating.

I certainly don't think that what you're saying is impossible, but it's like cooking an egg and then saying that it would definitely have become a chicken :)

[janvanvurpa]

With all due respect I don't feel that tony needs to prove any of these claims to you :)


I do not respect murderers, criminals and terrorists, He cliamed he "served" my country and accused my of "not serving".
I say he should prove he served the interests of the country, and wasn't another terrorist like his freind he bragged about.

Clearly---logically if one person attempts to rest their abililty to tell others off is based on some alleged service, that claim should be backed up.

And US interests were not served in killing and wounding thousands of Panamanians in a terror action to nab yet another American 'favorite son" who supposedly had gone bad. (like the Shah, Sadaam Hussein, the Mujahadeen etc etc.)
If you're not familiar with the US undeclared short war on Panama to grab one man which he claims he "was there", maybe look at this:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/archivos_pdf/confession_economichitman.pdf

David Harris, a contributing editor at the New York Times Mag-azine and the author of many
books, has an interesting observation. In his 2001 book Shooting the Moon, he states:
Of all the thousands of rulers, potentates, strongmen, juntas, and warlords the Americans have
dealt with in all corners of the world, General Manuel Antonio Noriega is the only one the
Americans came after like this. Just once in its 225 years of formal national existence has the
United States ever invaded another country and carried its ruler back to the United States to
face trial and im-prisonment for violations of American law committed on that rulers own native
foreign turf.8
Following the bombardment, the United States suddenly found itself in a delicate situation. For a
while, it seemed as though the whole thing would backfire. The Bush administration might have
quashed the wimp rumors, but now it faced the problem of legiti-macy, of appearing to be a bully
caught in an act of terrorism. It was disclosed that the U.S. Army had prohibited the press, the
Red Cross, and other outside observers from entering the heavily bombed areas for three days,
while soldiers incinerated and buried the casualties. The press asked questions about how much
evidence of criminal and other inappropriate behavior was destroyed, and about how many died
because they were denied timely medical attention, but such questions were never answered.
We shall never know many of the facts about the invasion, nor shall we know the true extent of
the massacre. Defense Secretary Richard Cheney claimed a death toll between five hundred
and six hundred, but independent human rights groups estimated it at three thousand to five
thousand, with another twenty-five thousand left homeless.9 Noriega was arrested, flown to
Miami, and sentenced to forty years' imprisonment; at that time, he was the only person in the
United States officially classified as a prisoner of war.10
The world was outraged by this breach of international law and by the needless destruction of a
defenseless people at the hands of the most powerful military force on the planet, but few in the
United
The United States Invades Panama



If he took part in that, he's a terrorist and did not serve The United States or its Constitution.

[anthonyvop]

Here you go ant:

http://www.britannica.com/bps/additionalcontent/8/398253/Document-George-W-Bush-Declaration-of-War-on-Terrorism

The declaration of war on terrorism was directly aimed at Muslims.

Thank you for proving my point....Nowhere did President Bush order the killing of Muslims just for being Muslims.

[anthonyvop]

If he took part in that, he's a terrorist and did not serve The United States or its Constitution.

You are a vile, loathsome, spoiled, creature who spews hatred under the allusion that you are morally superior. What they say about you is more than true and it is no surprise your life and career has turned out the way it has.

One day our paths will cross and I will give the courtesy and allow you to apologize.

[janvanvurpa]

You are a vile, loathsome, spoiled, creature who spews hatred under the allusion that you are morally superior. What they say about you is more than true and it is no surprise your life and career has turned out the way it has.

One day our paths will cross and I will give the courtesy and allow you to apologize.


Don't dodge things by calling me vile and loathsome, you don't see me claiming I "served my country" by invading and indiscriminately murdering women and children by the hundreds. You claimed you "were there".

My career? You know nothing of "my career". Besides, obvious dodge is obvious, where is the proof you're even American, and that you ever were in the service of my country.?
And why should I apologize when you have insulted me and soiled my Country"s reputation by your claimed terrorist acts?

Even if you apologized to the people of Panama for invading their country just for a cheap ass salary you got---if you ever did---and apologized to the families of those killed and wounded and whose homes were destroyed because you were "just following orders", why should I apologize to you? Because I've shown what you claim you did to be a terrorist action, and illegal under American law?

Ha!

[555-04Q2]

As I said, the US can do no right by some.




My God I got sucked back into this. I'm out, like I said I was gonna be because you just can't have a reasonable conversation with some people.

Actually, the US does a lot od good around the world. Sadly, they also poke their nose in places it doesn't belong.

[555-04Q2]

Who is the one who feels everything that is different is bad?

"In February, 1998 Osama Bin Laden issued a statement titled "The World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders". This document states that it is the duty of all Muslims to kill all American citizens and the allies of America. According to the Jihad ideals it is okay to kill others if it is for the God; especially for the spreading of the Muslim faith (not all Muslims agree with the ideas of a Jihad)."

Yes, in retaliation for the deaths of their people. They didn't start it, the West did with their biased and brutal foreign policies and if you don't like it we go to war with you attitude.

[555-04Q2]

Umm... no it wasn't 555. In fact, just the oposite:

"...I also want to speak tonight directly to Muslims throughout the world. We respect your faith. It’s practiced freely by many millions of Americans, and by millions more in countries that America counts as friends. Its teachings are good and peaceful, and those who commit evil in the name of Allah blaspheme the name of Allah. The terrorists are traitors to their own faith, trying, in effect, to hijack Islam itself. The enemy of America is not our many Muslim friends; it is not our many Arab friends. Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them. Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated. ..."

They target Muslim countries and muslims. And it was all triggered by the West. They are worsening their own problem. If the Muslims are their friends, why do they have the blood of innocent men, woman and children on their hands. The actions of the US speak louder than the false words you quoted them on.

[555-04Q2]

Liar-liar pants on fire!

You are either:

1. 12 years old
2. Have an IQ of 12

Which is it?

[555-04Q2]

According to Bush, it was OK to kill others if it was for "freedom"; especially for the spreading of "democracy" (not all believers in democracy agree with that stance).

Which as all sane people know is bullsh!t. The "leaders" of the "free world" see fit to torture and kill people in the name of "freedom" and "democracy". That's exactly what the other side is thinking too, that they are also right. So who is right then? The answer is no one.

People on this forum are stating that I am a fan of Osama. On the contrary, I hated the guys guts. People on this forum are stating that I think the US can do no good. Again, on the contrary, I have seen the good they do with my own eyes. Sadly, the people who are making these comments are those who like me, are from the West so they see everything that the West does as right. Have they ever stopped to think that the terrorist sitting in the cave somewhere has the exact same thoughts that we do?

I can see past all the bullsh!t and just because I disagree with the biased views of people on this forum who live in the West, does not mean I support what the likes of Osama and his kind do. Many from the West wear blinkers. What I am saying is there are two sides to this whole story. Both sides are the bad guys here. Getting personal or running from this thread does not change the fact that the world is fu@ked up, and will always be fu@ked up as long as there are more than 2 people on this planet who can argue about something.

[555-04Q2]

Thank you for proving my point....Nowhere did President Bush order the killing of Muslims just for being Muslims.

:erm: I never said he wanted to kill Muslims just for being Muslims :s tareup:

[DexDexter]

There's always a reason for every consequence and USA/Israel has given more than enough of a reason. Do you really think that OBL one fine day just woke up with an idea of attacking WTC towers? Just like that this idea came to his mind? If you take away the reason, then there's no consequence to deal with.

Not that I'm justifying OBL or smthin, but clearly you cannot even understand the reasons for all of this and it goes waay back in history. And now we have consequence where all of these idiots are killing each-other and thus affecting our lives as well with their games.

I know you'd like us all to live in peace and harmony, me too , but that is not possible in the current situation we are in. At the moment there are terrorist groups all over the world trying to blow up/kill people because on their values, their chosen way of life, their religion. What should we do about it? What should the Americans do about it? Nothing? Let them do what they wish? Should we engage bombers in philosophical discussions? Bush Jr was not the brightest kid on the block but American policy has changed after Obama came into power and they are heading into the right direction. I'm really surprised how people (Europeans of different nations) who have so much in common with Americans can despise them so much that every single action by them is condemned no matter what it is and what it is based on. People also forget the fact that Americans have bailed us out two times. Let's face it, without the Americans all Europeans from Finland to France would be speaking Russian.

[Eki]

At the moment there are terrorist groups all over the world trying to blow up/kill people because on their values, their chosen way of life, their religion.
So you think it's OK that the Americans and some other countries have chosen the way of life of helping Israel to kill and oppress Palestinians, to occupy Iraq and kill people there, etc.?

[Eki]

Let's face it, without the Americans all Europeans from Finland to France would be speaking Russian.
Don't make me laugh. The Americans helped the Soviet Union to fight Finland in WW2. It's thanks to the Finns and maybe the Germans, not the Americans, that we don't speak Russian.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I think Obama has done the correct thing in not releasing pictures of Bin Laden with half his face blown off. Conspiracy theorists would just say that they are faked anyway.
If he was still alive he would have sent a message by now to keep up Al Qaeda morale and make the US luck dumb.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Don't make me laugh. The Americans helped the Soviet Union to fight Finland in WW2. It's thanks to the Finns and maybe the Germans, not the Americans, that we don't speak Russian.

You're speaking English! :p

[Eki]

You're speaking English! :p

True.

[gadjo_dilo]

People also forget the fact that Americans have bailed us out two times. Let's face it, without the Americans all Europeans from Finland to France would be speaking Russian.

More likely we would be speaking german..... :devil:

[gadjo_dilo]

If he was still alive he would have sent a message by now to keep up Al Qaeda morale and make the US luck dumb.

Talking about possibilities I wonder how US would look if he died a few years ago and it's reported he was killed now.

[ArrowsFA1]

Good thing club Gitmo was kept open.


Claims that the torture of detainees was directly responsible for the intelligence that tracked down Osama bin Laden are fanciful at best and cynically manipulative at worst.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2011/may/05/torture-and-osama-bin-laden

[Rollo]

Limbaugh just said deathers like you would pop-out of the wood work.

The Obama actually fulfilled a campaign probmise-- SHIZAM!

I guess his decision to not coddle the trash in Club Gitmo paid off- good for Obama and good for Bush, that chapter is closed.

I made my comment with my tongue planted firmly in my cheek and even had a cheeky smiley on the end. Looks like that was wasted.

Gitmo eh?
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/54301.html
Sen. John McCain denounced “advanced interrogation” methods like waterboarding Wednesday amid a growing debate over its effectiveness reopened by the killing of Osama bin Laden.
“So far I know of no information that was obtained, that would have been useful, by ‘advanced interrogation.’ In fact, according to published reports … some of the key people who knew about this courrier denied it,”
“I stand on the side of the United States and by the Geneva conventions, of which we are signatories, which we were in violation of by waterboarding.”

You think that Gitmo paid off? How? If no useful information was obtained, then what purpose did it serve?

Then again you have stated previously that you don't think that there actually is such a thing as human rights, much less a right to dignity, so therefore I guess you're prepared to excuse what went on at Guantanamo.

[Bagwan]

Here's a little story of how things work , as told to me by Abby Hoffman after speaking with Jimmy Carter :
Carter said that from behind his back , an emmisary went to speak with the Ayatola about keeping the hostages in Iran until the election was over , to oust Jimmy as a lame duck .
His name was John Tower .
Ammunition was traded for the hostages the moment Reagan signed the paper to become President .
Ron was a hero .

And the man appointed to investigate a newly confused title for the scandal , called now "Iran/Contra affair" , was a guy named John , in "The Tower Commision" .
It was a "Here , John , go cover your tracks ." situation .


What this should tell you is that the US government is not at all controlled by the president , although you're supposed to think it is .

By the way , Abby was dead within six months , supposedly having committed suicide .
He looked pretty happy when I saw him .
A lot of people wanted to hear what he had to say .

And , you've probably never heard the story .


Too bad Twitter wasn't invented yet at the time .

[BDunnell]

What this should tell you is that the US government is not at all controlled by the president , although you're supposed to think it is .

I don't think many people would be under the illusion that any government is controlled by its named head, owing to the influence wielded by such as the civil service, other members of government and so on.

[BDunnell]

I think Obama has done the correct thing in not releasing pictures of Bin Laden with half his face blown off. Conspiracy theorists would just say that they are faked anyway.
If he was still alive he would have sent a message by now to keep up Al Qaeda morale and make the US luck dumb.

On the grounds of common decency, I for one have no desire to see any such images. They would be revolting.

[anthonyvop]

Don't dodge things by calling me vile and loathsome, you don't see me claiming I "served my country" by invading and indiscriminately murdering women and children by the hundreds. You claimed you "were there".

My career? You know nothing of "my career". Besides, obvious dodge is obvious, where is the proof you're even American, and that you ever were in the service of my country.?
And why should I apologize when you have insulted me and soiled my Country"s reputation by your claimed terrorist acts?

Even if you apologized to the people of Panama for invading their country just for a cheap ass salary you got---if you ever did---and apologized to the families of those killed and wounded and whose homes were destroyed because you were "just following orders", why should I apologize to you? Because I've shown what you claim you did to be a terrorist action, and illegal under American law?

Ha!

I stand by my statement.
I would suggest you come to grips with it and govern your actions accordingly.

[schmenke]

They target Muslim countries and muslims. ...

That is very naïve 555.

Religion is not a factor.

US policy is to suppress volatility in parts of the world that threaten both their safety, and more importantly, economic stability. The instability in Iraq was more of a threat to the latter, although the White House administration made is seem more like the former.

[Bagwan]

Schmenke , yours is also rather a naive comment .

A whole lot of money is made on war . It's the only factor .

The rest is what we're supposed to believe .

[555-04Q2]

That is very naïve 555.

Religion is not a factor.

US policy is to suppress volatility in parts of the world that threaten both their safety, and more importantly, economic stability. The instability in Iraq was more of a threat to the latter, although the White House administration made is seem more like the former.

You should know by now that I am anything but naive ;)

[555-04Q2]

US policy is to suppress volatility in parts of the world that threaten both their safety, and more importantly, economic stability. The instability in Iraq was more of a threat to the latter, although the White House administration made is seem more like the former.

I would have to say that their policies causes more volatility than stability.

[Bagwan]

I would have to say that their policies causes more volatility than stability.

That's the idea .

[Ranger]

Time for some news.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/uspakistan-tensions-increase-20110505-1eae6.html

Speaking of volatile...

[schmenke]

...A whole lot of money is made on war . It's the only factor .
....

Yep, agree 100%.
But it’s also an investment. Wars are expensive. It costs a lot of money to ensure the economic stability for which a country is fighting.

[DexDexter]

More likely we would be speaking german..... :devil:

You obviously haven't read your history books. Germany would have lost the war to Russia in any case.


Don't make me laugh. The Americans helped the Soviet Union to fight Finland in WW2. It's thanks to the Finns and maybe the Germans, not the Americans, that we don't speak Russian.

I'm talking about the whole Europe. If Americans hadn't landed in Normandy (their resources made it possible) Russians would have conquered the whole Germany and very likely other countries occupied by Germans.

[Eki]

I'm talking about the whole Europe. If Americans hadn't landed in Normandy (their resources made it possible) Russians would have conquered the whole Germany and very likely other countries occupied by Germans.
Instead the Soviets used the opportunity that the Normandy invasion gave them and tried to conquer Finland:

http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=215


On 9 Jun 1944, the Soviet Stavka ordered a general offensive against Finland to begin, a date chosen in coordination with the Western Allies' invasion of France at Normandy. Russian Colonel General Dmitrii N. Gusev pushed 15 divisions, including veteran Guard units, against the Finns and quickly pushed the front back to the Vammelsuu-Taipale Line by the next day.

[DexDexter]

Instead the Soviets used the opportunity that the Normandy invasion gave them and tried to conquer Finland:

http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=215

My point is that while Americans are an easy target for criticism, they've contributed a lot (a lot of lives) to help us build a free, democratic Europe and that's why I find the constant bashing of them odd, because in many ways they are like us, so it's like criticising ourselves.

[Eki]

My point is that while Americans are an easy target for criticism, they've contributed a lot (a lot of lives) to help us build a free, democratic Europe and that's why I find the constant bashing of them odd, because in many ways they are like us, so it's like criticising ourselves.
In many ways also Russians are like us. The Muslims aren't that different either. Also there are many kinds of Americans, many kinds of Russians, many kinds Muslims and many kinds of us.

[JackSparrow]

That is very naïve 555.

Religion is not a factor.

US policy is to suppress volatility in parts of the world that threaten both their safety, and more importantly, economic stability.

Hmmm,under the Taliban regime heroin production was 0%,Us invades Afghanistan ousts the Taliban.Aftermath,heroin production;120% of the worlds demand.
Mission accomplished,replace the radicals with a bunch of Pablo Escobars.

Talk about being NAIVE

[BDunnell]

My point is that while Americans are an easy target for criticism, they've contributed a lot (a lot of lives) to help us build a free, democratic Europe and that's why I find the constant bashing of them odd, because in many ways they are like us, so it's like criticising ourselves.

I very much agree with your sentiments. There is so much specifically to admire about America and Americans. However, I hope we would feel able to be critical of any nation whose policies we object to, gratitude towards them for past actions notwithstanding.

[bowler]

However, I hope we would feel able to be critical of any nation whose policies we object to, gratitude towards them for past actions notwithstanding.

I agree.

We are lucky that we have the freedom to criticise our friends and allies, and that is a point many here don't understand. These freedoms come at a price, normally paid in people. By all means discuss and criticise, but understand how we have retained the ability to do so.

[schmenke]

Hmmm,under the Taliban regime heroin production was 0%,Us invades Afghanistan ousts the Taliban.Aftermath,heroin production;120% of the worlds demand.
Mission accomplished,replace the radicals with a bunch of Pablo Escobars.

Talk about being NAIVE

Why am I naïve?

What does Taliban opium production have to do with the invasion of Iraq, or more to the point, the post that you quoted?

Besides, the US did not invade Afganistan, a coalition of several nations did.

[JackSparrow]

Why am I naïve?
.

Because the US doesn't give 2 sh*** about other countries freedoms,prosperities etc.They need wars to fuel their huge military monster and make money while at it. Can you imagine the military machine collecting dust?
How many people throughout the world see the US soldiers as "liberators"?

If the government is concerned for "safety" they need to stay out of other people's business. But why do so when you can brainwash people with wild theories of WMD's, Axis of Evil and other BS.

[schmenke]

Because the US doesn't give 2 sh*** about other countries freedoms,prosperities etc.They need wars to fuel their huge military monster and make money while at it. Can you imagine the military machine collecting dust?
How many people throughout the world see the US soldiers as "liberators"?

If the government is concerned for "safety" they need to stay out of other people's business. But why do so when you can brainwash people with wild theories of WMD's, Axis of Evil and other BS.

So what's any of that got to do with my post that you quoted?
Why didn't you just post your opinion without resorting to calling me naive?

[gadjo_dilo]

You obviously haven't read your history books. Germany would have lost the war to Russia in any case.


Hmm.... I admit I have poor knowledge but on the other hand in history books we can find the events and facts that had happened. What could have happened are only suppositions. Alliances between countries can come overnight due to the national interest and can change what we think it's granted..
Anyway I don't think that ever in history an european country could conquer the whole continent, not to mention that it's not a rule that a conquered country is forced to adopt the language of the conquerer. Russian language wasn't compulsory even in the communist block.

[Eki]

Besides, the US did not invade Afganistan, a coalition of several nations did.
And guns don't kill, people do.

[DexDexter]

Hmm.... I admit I have poor knowledge but on the other hand in history books we can find the events and facts that had happened. What could have happened are only suppositions. Alliances between countries can come overnight due to the national interest and can change what we think it's granted..
Anyway I don't think that ever in history an european country could conquer the whole continent, not to mention that it's not a rule that a conquered country is forced to adopt the language of the conquerer. Russian language wasn't compulsory even in the communist block.

Yes it was, Estonians,for example had to study Russian. This is bit offtopic and I'm not interested in continuing this discussion with somebody who really doesn't know what he is talking about. No offense, honestly.

Back to the topic, now that Palin woman is demanding that the pictures of Osama should be made public. I bet she couldn't even pinpoint Pakistan on the map.

[Zico]

They have said they wont release pictures of his body leading to a list of conspiracy theories..



1. He must be still alive because there’s no proof

The lack of photos, videos and other evidence, plus inconsistencies in accounts of the raid that killed him, apparently shows the US government made the whole thing up.

Taliban spokesman Zabiullah Mujahid is one doubter. He released a statement to journalists saying: “This news is only coming from one side, from Obama’s office, and America has not shown any evidence or proof to support this claim.” Iranian State television also declared: "the mystery [of his death] has increased”.

Anti-war activist Cindy Sheehan, whose son was killed in the Iraq war, also disputed the news on Facebook. She said: "I am sorry, but if you believe the newest death of OBL, you're stupid. Just think to yourself - they paraded Saddam's dead sons around to prove they were dead - why do you suppose they hastily buried this version of OBL at sea? This lying, murderous Empire can only exist with your brainwashed consent - just put your flags away and THINK!"

Naturally, several other Facebook pages made by skeptics have been set up, while searches for "osama bin laden not dead," "osama bin laden still alive" and "bin laden not dead" on Yahoo! spiked off the charts on Monday.

Our figures show most of the searchers of "bin laden conspiracy" were from the US states of Oregon, Wisconsin, North Carolina, Indiana and New Jersey.

2. He’s already dead

Ever since the September 11 attacks there have been numerous reports of bin Laden’s death. Back in 2001 Fox News reported he’d died of lung complications in Tora Bora. In 2005 Senator Harry Reid suggested bin Laden was killed in the Pakistan earthquake, while in 2007 Benazir Bhutto said the al-Qaeda boss was murdered by Pakistani militant Omar Sheikh.

Conspiracy theorists reckon official news of his death was kept from the public to continue justifying the war on terror, with the US government periodically releasing fake videos of the terror leader to keep the world convinced. The theory is that because the powers that be didn’t need bin Laden as a terrorist ‘boogieman’ anymore, they finally announced his death.

3. He was taken alive

Controversial Fox News talk show host Glenn Beck is famous for his conspiracy theories and gave a couple of suggestions about bin Laden’s death on his radio show. Firstly, he speculated that Obama ‘ghosted out’ the al-Qaeda leader - which means the Navy SEALs made it look like he was killed when actually he was taken alive, presumably to be interrogated.

4. He knew about a nuclear bomb

Beck’s other theory was that bin Laden was captured to stop him revealing the location of al-Qaeda’s nuclear bomb. This is reference to WikiLeaks documents that show US security officials briefed other countries on the possibility the terror group had a dirty bomb. Beck didn’t explain why the US government would do this.

5. He’s been ‘on ice’ for years

Another controversial US radio host Alex Jones said the US concocted the story to justify a security crackdown. He reckons bin Laden was killed back in 2002 and his body has been “literally frozen” to be rolled out at a later date.

6. He was given up by Pakistan

Website Maggie’s Farm quotes ‘speculation’ (though they don’t name sources) that, contrary to the reports the US acted alone, Pakistan actually knew all all about Osama’s location and offered up the al-Qaeda leader as a “sweetener” to speed US withdrawal from Afghanistan.

7. He was killed as a pretext for war in Pakistan

David Icke doesn’t agree though. No round-up of conspiracy theories would be complete without a contribution from Icke, who has written extensively about the event on his website. One of his theories is that the killing was fabricated to give the US a reason to actually invade Pakistan because they were harbouring the terror chief. War with China, he suggests, then Russia, will follow. Let’s hope he’s wrong.

8. He was killed to revive Obama’s poll ratings

Barack Obama’s presidency has been a difficult one. Universal healthcare, the budget deficit, high unemployment and fuel costs have resulted in low poll ratings and defeat for the Democrats at last year’s mid-terms, when the Republicans took the House of Representatives.

What better way then, some bloggers have argued, to get those poll ratings up than by suddenly killing America’s most wanted man? Writing on a Tea Party website, one conspiracy theorist said: "Don't you think Obama needs something to assure his re-election?"

9. He was killed to trump Trump

There’s no love lost between Donald Trump and Obama, with the property tycoon reviving the issue of the president’s birth certificate last week. Obama responded by first mocking Trump at the White House correspondents’ annual dinner. Then, when the time came for the bin Laden announcement, ‘Celebrity Apprentice’ had to be interrupted on NBC. The host? Donald Trump.

10. His killing was delayed for the Royal Wedding

The close proximity of the Royal Wedding and the death of bin Laden inevitably means some conspiracy theorists have linked the two events.

Firstly, a security expert told The Daily Express that the reason Wills and Kate postponed their honeymoon - possibly to Jordan – was because they had a tip-off on Friday about the upcoming events in Pakistan.

There’s also been speculation that the White House, who could have killed bin Laden on Friday, delayed pulling the trigger for two days in order for the two events not to clash.

11. His date of death is spooky

Osama bin Laden’s death was announced exactly eight years after George W Bush made his now infamous ‘Mission Accomplished’ announcement. Even spookier, it happened 66 years and 6 hours after the world learned about the death of Hitler. That’s 666.
...



Anyone buy into any of them? I believe he is dead and that should be all that matters.

[BDunnell]

I am all in favour of people having enquiring minds, but what a shame this attribute isn't always directed towards stories that actually need investigating. As I said earlier, I find anyone who wants to see a photo of anyone with part of their face blown off, for whatever reason, ghoulish in the extreme. On grounds of common taste, no image should be released.

[ArrowsFA1]

They have said they wont release pictures of his body leading to a list of conspiracy theories...
There will be conspiracy theories with or without a photo.

[A.F.F.]

On grounds of common taste, an image should be released. I believe I'm with the majority.

[BDunnell]

On grounds of common taste, an image should be released. I believe I'm with the majority.

In what way is it tasteful to see an image of someone who has been shot in the head?

[A.F.F.]

Proofwise. I'm not talking about someone, I'm talking about Osama Bin Laden.

[BDunnell]

I have no desire to see an image of him with a half-destroyed head, either.

[A.F.F.]

Well, I certainly won't blame you for that. But I do.

[gadjo_dilo]

Yes it was, Estonians,for example had to study Russian. This is bit offtopic and I'm not interested in continuing this discussion with somebody who really doesn't know what he is talking about. No offense, honestly.



Ok. I agree to stop it. But since you you were laughing at my history knowledge, I must remember you that Estonia used to be a part of the Soviet Union. Other countries ( Hungary, Poland, Romania, etc.) weren't.

Now back to the topic.....

[BDunnell]

Well, I certainly won't blame you for that. But I do.

Why? What difference does it make whether you see it or not?

[Daniel]

Apparently pope John Paul II helped the USA to kill ozzy :)

[Dave B]

The conspiracy theorists will only claim that the photo is fake or doctored, they'll never be satisfied.

[Rollo]

Apparently pope John Paul II helped the USA to kill ozzy :)

Has anyone told Sharon? Or even Ozzy for that matter?

Mind you if someone did kill Ozzy, it would probably take him about a week and a half for him to work it out for himself. I'd heard that he once snorted a line of ants, but I don't know if that's true or not.

[Bob Riebe]

As normal--this thread has degraded--to grade school style absolute facts based on childish opinons and near bigoted prejudices.

As far as the picture, it is a half-dozen one-way and six the other.
Common decency has not one thing to do with it, but political aspirations do.
I fully agree getting rid of it as quickly as they did was the best thing to do.

Mean while the Obama Adm. has started its football spiking type dances, despite their saying such things are not neccessary but one of the conservative talking TV heads fixation with on the way Osama was buried is enough to make any Dem. talking points seem muted.

The way the whole thing was handled for the first twelve hours seems un-naturally well done but now it seems to be falling back to politics as usual.

[JackSparrow]

In what way is it tasteful to see an image of someone who has been shot in the head?

CSI fans disagree with you.

[BDunnell]

As far as the picture, it is a half-dozen one-way and six the other.
Common decency has not one thing to do with it, but political asperations do.
I fully agree getting rid of it as quickly as they did was the best thing to do.

Mean while the Obama Adm. has started its football spiking type dances, despite their saying such things are not neccessary but one of the conservative talking TV heads fixation with on the way Osama was buried is enough to make any Dem. talking points seem muted.

The way the whole thing was handled for the first twelve hours seems un-naturally well done but now it seems to be falling back to politics as usual.

I see nothing to disagree with in this.

[JackSparrow]

There will be conspiracy theories with or without a photo.

Yeah like the ones that said no way Saddam has WMD's. The US government has lost all credibility when it comes to warfare.

Just show me the darn picture and let me worry about the psychological damage. They show enough gruesome surgeries on TLC,one photo wont kill anyone.

[BDunnell]

Yeah like the ones that said no way Saddam has WMD's.

In no sense do I class that as a conspiracy theory.

[airshifter]

I see no reason why they should release photos. Those who think it's a consprirasy theory will continue to do so. As for the details of the raid, I seriously doubt more than a small handful of people really know those details. Those people being the SEAL team and upper level command. Unless I heard it from the people involved I would consider it nothing other than speculation myself.

On an interesting side note to that point, there is now some speculation that a dog was involved and roped in on someones back.


BDunnell,

Have you seen any of the photos of the helicopter wreckage? I thought this would be of interest to you. I personally had no idea they were working on a stealth helicopter of that size.




And I'm not surprised at all that as usual this thread has degraded to the usual "The US is the cause of all evil" thread for many. Which is probably why the US will do as it sees fit, since the world reaction is usually negative regardless.

[Daniel]

BDunnell,

Have you seen any of the photos of the helicopter wreckage? I thought this would be of interest to you. I personally had no idea they were working on a stealth helicopter of that size.

Speculation of course
http://helablog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Secret_stealth_copter.jpg

[A.F.F.]

Yeah like the ones that said no way Saddam has WMD's. The US government has lost all credibility when it comes to warfare.

Just show me the darn picture and let me worry about the psychological damage. They show enough gruesome surgeries on TLC,one photo wont kill anyone.

Or that one particular picture might kill several people when Al-Qaida get pissed off about it. Even though I agree with you. BDunnell asked me what difference does it make whether if I see it or not? Well, guess I'm a sick bas-tard but I want proof. Simple as that. I wanted the son-of-a-bitch dead and now I want a conclusion.

[BDunnell]

BDunnell,

Have you seen any of the photos of the helicopter wreckage? I thought this would be of interest to you. I personally had no idea they were working on a stealth helicopter of that size.

I very much doubt it is a new helicopter type — rather a Black Hawk with a few specific modifications.

[BDunnell]

Or that one particular picture might kill several people when Al-Qaida get pissed off about it. Even though I agree with you. BDunnell asked me what difference does it make whether if I see it or not? Well, guess I'm a sick bas-tard but I want proof. Simple as that. I wanted the son-of-a-bitch dead and now I want a conclusion.

You have proof. You have been told that he is dead. The only people who don't think this is the case are nutters. I don't see what there is to disbelieve.

[A.F.F.]

You have proof. You have been told that he is dead. The only people who don't think this is the case are nutters. I don't see what there is to disbelieve.

Why do you care so much what I want?

[BDunnell]

Why do you care so much what I want?

It just strikes me as an odd attitude to adopt, that's all.

[A.F.F.]

It just strikes me as an odd attitude to adopt, that's all.

Fair enough. I just don't think I'm alone with my attitude.

[BDunnell]

Fair enough. I just don't think I'm alone with my attitude.

I'm sure you're not. To me it's an absurd conspiracy theory too far.

[anthonyvop]

The left-wing attitude:
We shouldn't celebrate the death of Bin Laden because it will infuriate the Muslim extremists and they might attack us.
We shouldn't show the photos of his pathetic corpse because they might attack us.

So logic dictates that Left wingers also beleive that:

Muslim extremists have attacked countries for supporting Israel so we should stop supporting Israel!

Muslim extremists has executed homosexuals because it is against their religion so we should stop supporting gay rights.

Muslim extremists believe women are subservient to men so we should cover up our women and take away their rights.

[Daniel]

The left-wing attitude:
We shouldn't celebrate the death of Bin Laden because it will infuriate the Muslim extremists and they might attack us.
We shouldn't show the photos of his pathetic corpse because they might attack us.

So logic dictates that Left wingers also beleive that:

Muslim extremists have attacked countries for supporting Israel so we should stop supporting Israel!

Muslim extremists has executed homosexuals because it is against their religion so we should stop supporting gay rights.

Muslim extremists believe women are subservient to men so we should cover up our women and take away their rights.

I think there's a difference between celebrating his death (something I can understand) and talk of urinating on his body as I seem to remember someone on here suggesting

[BDunnell]

I think there's a difference between celebrating his death (something I can understand) and talk of urinating on his body as I seem to remember someone on here suggesting

Just agree with everything he says. It satisfies him on some peculiarly meaningful level.

[Eki]

The left-wing attitude:
We shouldn't celebrate the death of Bin Laden because it will infuriate the Muslim extremists and they might attack us.
We shouldn't show the photos of his pathetic corpse because they might attack us.

So logic dictates that Left wingers also beleive that:

Muslim extremists have attacked countries for supporting Israel so we should stop supporting Israel!

Muslim extremists has executed homosexuals because it is against their religion so we should stop supporting gay rights.

Muslim extremists believe women are subservient to men so we should cover up our women and take away their rights.
You should also put value to each of those items before you might make sense. Celebrating bin Laden's death and showing photos have no value. We don't miss them and can easily live without them. I personally would also add supporting Israel to that group of no value to me.

[markabilly]

forgive me or forgive me not for my sense of justice, but I am of the opinion he deserved the same painful, slow death he was more than willing to put upon others--indeed, that he did put upon others.

An eye for an eye.

Much why I love it when reporters go out and get killed trying to film others getting killed..... :D

as to the photos, well big deal.

If someone can show some merits to the photos besides showing his brains hanging out his ear, well I would like to see it. Otherwise whatever.... :rolleyes:

Much like the film of Kennedy's murder, it seems to have much value as to how he may have died, and has convinced me that much is wrong with the Warren report. Having stood in the window where Oswald was to have shot him, I have many questions as to why the first shot completely missed, even the car, at a very close distance while the car was almost stopped after its turn, but the other two as the car speed away downward and at angle, with no times to aim, were almost perfect.


Meanwhile if you want to see life at the family Osama, they have now released videos of him at home, smoking something (Pot?????? as there is a story he had a nice pot farm growing in his compound --wonder if it were a "cash" crop or maybe some opium smuggled in from afganistan)

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/videos-from-bin-laden-s-hide-out-released-104155


http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/159799-pentagon-releases-candid-video-of-bin-laden-in-hiding



watching himself on TV......

[BDunnell]

as to the photos, well big deal.

If someone can show some merits to the photos besides showing his brains hanging out his ear, well I would like to see it. Otherwise whatever.... :rolleyes:

Well said.

[JackSparrow]

I think there's a difference between celebrating his death (something I can understand) and talk of urinating on his body as I seem to remember someone on here suggesting

So people celebrating makes Al Qaeda less mad? Can you quantify less/more mad? If they're mad already they wont get any madder from a picture! Do they plan their attacks according to their madness? We're half mad so we'll blow up half the things?

Show me the darn picture already,and stop feeding me BS about al qaeda getting mad.

[Zico]

So people celebrating makes Al Qaeda less mad? Can you quantify less/more mad? If they're mad already they wont get any madder from a picture! Do they plan their attacks according to their madness? We're half mad so we'll blow up half the things?

Show me the darn picture already,and stop feeding me BS about al qaeda getting mad.

Im with Daniel. Wouldn't you agree that a picture is more powerfull, has a far greater impact than words alone?


Having no pic of his body doesn't bother me, of all the conspiracy theories to choose I'd probably pick the one where he isn't dead.... yet.. just being tortured for info.. not one I have a problem with either.

[Rollo]

forgive me or forgive me not for my sense of justice, but I am of the opinion he deserved the same painful, slow death he was more than willing to put upon others--indeed, that he did put upon others.

An eye for an eye.

America has already taken back "An eye for an eye" between sixteen and twenty times over. There doesn't need to be anymore blood payment. Getting that blood payment has cost ten years and driven the United States' economy and reputation into the ground.

The best thing at this point would be to declare the books closed on this forever and move on.

[Bob Riebe]

America has already taken back "An eye for an eye" between sixteen and twenty times over. There doesn't need to be anymore blood payment. Getting that blood payment has cost ten years and driven the United States' economy and reputation into the ground.

The best thing at this point would be to declare the books closed on this forever and move on.
Tell that to the people who family were murded by Islamists.

Such 'time to move on" is most often said by one not involved, and sadly, if said by one involved, that one is touted as most important, even if dozens or hundreds of others other strongly disagree.

[anthonyvop]

You should also put value to each of those items before you might make sense. Celebrating bin Laden's death and showing photos have no value. We don't miss them and can easily live without them. I personally would also add supporting Israel to that group of no value to me.


Value is relative.

For me I want everyone who considers taking up arms against the US to see those photos with a caption saying "If we can get him we can get you!" That would be priceless.

As for your opinion on Israel......That has zero value to me

[anthonyvop]

America has already taken back "An eye for an eye" between sixteen and twenty times over.

Isn't enough. As long as their are people who are willing to take up arms against the United States I will have no problem with a 1000 to one kill ratio or higher.

[ArrowsFA1]

As long as their are people who are willing to take up arms against the United States I will have no problem with a 1000 to one kill ratio or higher.
Sadly you don't seem to grasp that as long as there are those like yourself who are happy to see a "1000 to one kill ratio or higher" there will be those "willing to take up arms against the United States".

[Eki]

Isn't enough. As long as their are people who are willing to take up arms against the United States I will have no problem with a 1000 to one kill ratio or higher.

How does that make you different from them who think it's OK to knock down some towers and kill few thousand Americans for every Muslim the Americans kill in the Middle East?

[BDunnell]

Isn't enough. As long as their are people who are willing to take up arms against the United States I will have no problem with a 1000 to one kill ratio or higher.

Given that, at what point would you deem the kill ratio to be too high? And where would you draw the line? Would you, for instance, advocate the killing of those who consider a '1000 to one' kill ratio unacceptable, on the grounds that their unduly liberal attitudes pose a threat to the security of the USA?

[markabilly]

America has already taken back "An eye for an eye" between sixteen and twenty times over. There doesn't need to be anymore blood payment. Getting that blood payment has cost ten years and driven the United States' economy and reputation into the ground.

The best thing at this point would be to declare the books closed on this forever and move on.

Not really. I actually feel sorry for the stupid *******s that go getting themselves killed, either by US bombs or by blowing themselves up.
One could say it is their own fault for being so stupid,........but.......

No I think leaders in a war should always be the first to die; that would do more to keep peace than anything else.

why do you think we did not have a thermonuke dance with the ole soviets????

Yeah, all those leaders were so worried over how many millions might die???? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


they knew they would be among the first to die and nobody would be left to go around singing hail to the chief.

well, making the leaders to be the first to die, would be a great step towards world peace.

[Bob Riebe]

Given that, at what point would you deem the kill ratio to be too high? And where would you draw the line? Would you, for instance, advocate the killing of those who consider a '1000 to one' kill ratio unacceptable, on the grounds that their unduly liberal attitudes pose a threat to the security of the USA?

IF every known member of those considered to be THE enemy were dead, but one kills a few outsiders just to be sure, would be considered going too far; whereas to exterminate the enemy- would be ideal.

[Bob Riebe]

This article was published shortly before Sept. 11, 2001--http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/10/opinion/the-declining-terrorist-threat.html

Krauthammer's editorial today says that the same asinine attitude is being verbalized by many liberals again now that Osama is dead.

The more things change the more they stay the same.

At the same time with Osama dead- I wonder how proud this makes Obama of his meddling in the affairs of Muslim countries where he and his regime have no business interfering. http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/14592868/muslim-christian-clashes-kill-2-in-west-cairo

[Eki]

IF every known member of those considered to be THE enemy were dead, but one kills a few outsiders just to be sure, would be considered going too far; whereas to exterminate the enemy- would be ideal.
In reality you create more enemies for every outsider killed.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well I am not going to read 19 pages of you guys fighting. I am glad he is dead, I think the Pakistani's knew he was there the whole time and were harbouring him, and are smart enough to now look the other way. Was Obama right to do what he did? That one is thorny, but hey, you play the game of poking the bull, the bull will get even. If Obama didn't do it, someone would have in time figured him out. The US had the balls to say "yes it was us"...so right or wrong, at least they are not hiding behind some fiction they didn't do it.

Fair trail for a man who would have your throat slit for being a non Muslim? No...but he isn't into fair. He got what everyone of these mutts claims to want, a trip to paradise. Whether he did or not is for powers beyond this earth, but I suspect Hell just got more interesting...no virgins there with honey..

[anthonyvop]

How does that make you different from them who think it's OK to knock down some towers and kill few thousand Americans for every Muslim the Americans kill in the Middle East?

Only you would make 3000 INNOCENT VICTIMS the same as those who actively attack the United States.

[anthonyvop]

Given that, at what point would you deem the kill ratio to be too high? And where would you draw the line? Would you, for instance, advocate the killing of those who consider a '1000 to one' kill ratio unacceptable, on the grounds that their unduly liberal attitudes pose a threat to the security of the USA?

If it would save the life of even 1 US citizen there is no number that is too high.

[Rollo]

Only you would make 3000 INNOCENT VICTIMS the same as those who actively attack the United States.

Between 14,000-34,000 civilians have been killed because of attacks in Afghanistan. They're equally as innocent as the 3000 who died in New York.

But you are correct. Everyone who has died in Afghanistan deserved to die because they're scum. From the people just going about their daily business to the evil evil children who were going to school. Scum scum scum. Kill all of them, they deserve it, don't they.

[Bob Riebe]

Between 14,000-34,000 civilians have been killed because of attacks in Afghanistan. They're equally as innocent as the 3000 who died in New York.

Only in your bigoted ignorant mind.

Karzai's cousin murdered in revenge for 'honour killing' of another of Afghan president's relatives 30 YEARS ago

A teenage relative of Afghan President Hamid Karzai has been murdered by another relative in revenge for another killing 30 years ago.
Waheed Karzai, 18, was shot in front of his 12-year old sister by a a distant relative taking revenge for the 'honour killing' of his father decades earlier.

The president's powerful relatives are now protecting the killer - Hazmat Karzai - from the authorities, it was claimed.
The blood feud could cast a shadow over Karzai's promise to clean up the corrupt government, spurred on by complaints from Western countries that provide the cash and troops that keep him in power.

[Bob Riebe]

Only in your bigoted ignorant mind.

Karzai's cousin murdered in revenge for 'honour killing' of another of Afghan president's relatives 30 YEARS ago

A teenage relative of Afghan President Hamid Karzai has been murdered by another relative in revenge for another killing 30 years ago.
Waheed Karzai, 18, was shot in front of his 12-year old sister by a a distant relative taking revenge for the 'honour killing' of his father decades earlier.

The president's powerful relatives are now protecting the killer - Hazmat Karzai - from the authorities, it was claimed.
The blood feud could cast a shadow over Karzai's promise to clean up the corrupt government, spurred on by complaints from Western countries that provide the cash and troops that keep him in power.


The Afghanistan populace has supported this kind of butchery for centuries, they are not even CLOSE to being innocent.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

But you are correct. Everyone who has died in Afghanistan deserved to die because they're scum. From the people just going about their daily business to the evil evil children who were going to school. Scum scum scum. Kill all of them, they deserve it, don't they.

I agree. They (Afgans) are just as evil as those Jews that were living in Germany in the 1930's.

[Rollo]

I agree. They (Afgans) are just as evil as those Jews that were living in Germany in the 1930's.

Don't forget the horrid horrid Zimbabweans who are secretly plotting to destory the world with hyperinflation.

[cali]

Don't forget the horrid horrid Zimbabweans who are secretly plotting to destory the world with hyperinflation.
Yes, kill em' all .... yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay....

[Ranger]

Isn't enough. As long as their are people who are willing to take up arms against the United States I will have no problem with a 1000 to one kill ratio or higher.

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo97/Sarklor/headdesk.gif

Is all I can say to that statement.

[Dave B]

"One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist" - erm, probably Martin Luther King or someone.

[Eki]

Between 14,000-34,000 civilians have been killed because of attacks in Afghanistan. They're equally as innocent as the 3000 who died in New York.

But you are correct. Everyone who has died in Afghanistan deserved to die because they're scum. From the people just going about their daily business to the evil evil children who were going to school. Scum scum scum. Kill all of them, they deserve it, don't they.

And even more innocent civilians have been killed in Iraq and in Lebanon and Palestine.

[F1boat]

So, Eki, the Americans are supposed to do nothing when terrorists hit them and kill thousands of their citizens?

[Eki]

So, Eki, the Americans are supposed to do nothing when terrorists hit them and kill thousands of their citizens?
Sure they are. They are supposed to improve their counter-terrorism intelligence and border security, and check their policies if there's something they could do that so many people weren't so pissed off by their actions.

If in your country the police is looking for a murderer, do they blow up apartment buildings and schools full of innocent bystanders where the suspect might or might not be hiding? Or should they wait until they get him without killing any innocent bystanders?

[Eki]

Sure they are. They are supposed to improve their counter-terrorism intelligence and border security, and check their policies if there's something they could do that so many people weren't so pissed off by their actions.

And apparently it's not just Muslims who are pissed off. I just read that in Helsinki, a Finnish middle-aged woman attacked a Canadian woman and her daughter yelling she hates Americans.

[donKey jote]

Its quite amusing to see the arrogance on both sides of this identical stance. Laughable.
:up:
just caught up on a couple of documentaries, back to back:
"Louis Theroux - America's Most Hated Family In Crisis", on the Phelps Bible-bashing cult nutters, and
"My Brother the Islamist", on a "white brother" British nutter converted to a radical Islam movement in the UK.

Mind boggling.
... and united in their passionate hatred of Obama ;) :p

[Bagwan]

Don't forget the horrid horrid Zimbabweans who are secretly plotting to destory the world with hyperinflation.

Mugabe had a rep at the royal wedding recently , and attended the beautification of John Paul , despite cries of genocide in his country .

They'll turn him into the "villian" when they need a new one .

[Bagwan]

And apparently it's not just Muslims who are pissed off. I just read that in Helsinki, a Finnish middle-aged woman attacked a Canadian woman and her daughter yelling she hates Americans.

Back in time , when I was back-packing Europe , I met many who were surprised to find out I was really Canadian .
They had expected me to be an American , simply because I had a Canadian flag on my pack .

[anthonyvop]

Between 14,000-34,000 civilians have been killed because of attacks in Afghanistan. They're equally as innocent as the 3000 who died in New York.



While I dispute those numbers I will point out one simple fact that you seem to have missed.

The 3000 people murdered on 9/11 were targeted. Any innocent civilian that maybe was killed in Afghanistan weren't. Collateral damage is the ugly side of war but no country has done more to prevent it than the USA.....NOBODY!!!

[F1boat]

It's shocking, but I have to side with antony here...

[Eki]

While I dispute those numbers I will point out one simple fact that you seem to have missed.

The 3000 people murdered on 9/11 were targeted. Any innocent civilian that maybe was killed in Afghanistan weren't. Collateral damage is the ugly side of war but no country has done more to prevent it than the USA.....NOBODY!!!

Actually, the target was the towers. So in a way, the people who happened to be in the towers were collateral damage.

http://www.allgreatquotes.com/osama_binladen_quotes.shtml




God knows it did not cross our minds to attack the towers but after the situation became unbearable and we witnessed the injustice and tyranny of the American-Israeli alliance against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, I thought about it. And the events that affected me directly were that of 1982 and the events that followed -- when America allowed the Israelis to invade Lebanon, helped by the U.S. Sixth Fleet. As I watched the destroyed towers in Lebanon, it occurred to me punish the unjust the same way (and) to destroy towers in America so it could taste some of what we are tasting and to stop killing our children and women.

It took Bin Laden 19 years to get the towers, so he was more patient than the US was in trying to get Bin Laden.

[anthonyvop]

Actually, the target was the towers. So in a way, the people who happened to be in the towers were collateral damage.



Are you serious? Really? Are you actually being serious by that statement?
Please tell me it is some kind of weird, quirky, Finnish humor that I don't get.

[Bob Riebe]

I agree. They (Afgans) are just as evil as those Jews that were living in Germany in the 1930's.
Oh yes all those honor and revenge killings among the Jews.
Your rhetoric is moronic.

[Bob Riebe]

In terms of ethics there doesn't seem to be a vast difference between you and a terrorist who also feels his people are dying as a result of the United States taking up arms against his people in the Middle East. Its quite amusing to see the arrogance on both sides of this identical stance. Laughable.
Lets see we unfortunately helped them against the Soviets; therefore they murder apprx. 3,000 people in New York City.

Your analogy is foolish.

[Bob Riebe]

And even more innocent civilians have been killed in Iraq and in Lebanon and Palestine. Well Saddam is gone and so is Arafat, so it is not nearly so bad now.

[Bob Riebe]

"One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist".

Yes they fight for what they believe in unlike the pantywaist liberals in the U.S. so one must respect them for honoring their faith, and absolutely kill them first.

[Bob Riebe]

Sure they are. They are supposed to improve their counter-terrorism intelligence and border security, and check their policies if there's something they could do that so many people weren't so pissed off by their actions.

If in your country the police is looking for a murderer, do they blow up apartment buildings and schools full of innocent bystanders where the suspect might or might not be hiding? Or should they wait until they get him without killing any innocent bystanders?
Your bogus trolling analogies are still asinine and numerous.

[Eki]

Are you serious? Really? Are you actually being serious by that statement?
Please tell me it is some kind of weird, quirky, Finnish humor that I don't get.
The US didn't care there were innocent bystanders in the towers in Lebanon, Bin Laden didn't care there were innocent bystanders in the WTC towers. Where's the difference?

[anthonyvop]

The US didn't care there were innocent bystanders in the towers in Lebanon, Bin Laden didn't care there were innocent bystanders in the WTC towers. Where's the difference?

You are sick.

[JackSparrow]

While I dispute those numbers I will point out one simple fact that you seem to have missed.

The 3000 people murdered on 9/11 were targeted. Any innocent civilian that maybe was killed in Afghanistan weren't. Collateral damage is the ugly side of war but no country has done more to prevent it than the USA.....NOBODY!!!
Are you being serious? You're not any better than Bin Laden with that thinking.
If they wanted to kill people there are simpler ways to do so.Timothy McVeigh killed 400 with a cargo van.

[JackSparrow]

The US is the only country that has dropped atom bombs on cities :( I'm sure there was no collateral damage done :rolleyes:

[Daniel]

The US is the only country that has dropped atom bombs on cities :( I'm sure there was no collateral damage done :rolleyes:

Call a waaaaaahmbulance. Anyone with half a braincell knows why they did that rather than attempt to invade.

[Bob Riebe]

I think theres a little more to it than that, and before we start insinuating each other have foolish judgements it might be worth analysing events with a little more depth. Your opinion of me makes absolutely no difference whatsoever.Nor does it make your analogy any less silly at face value. (Foolish is a bit too harsh)
There is nothing to relate the two.
Some here roll out the same trolling topics, not related to the thread topic, always attacking others opinions never rarely if ever defending their own.

Standard operating mode for trolling.

[Bob Riebe]

The US is the only country that has dropped atom bombs on cities.
So what is your point, if you have one?

[BDunnell]

The 3000 people murdered on 9/11 were targeted.

Each individual specifically?

[BDunnell]

Your bogus trolling analogies are still asinine and numerous.

Great stuff, Bob! Keep it up.

[BDunnell]

If it would save the life of even 1 US citizen there is no number that is too high.

What would your response be to those who would do the same for their own countries, in opposition to the US?

[JackSparrow]

Call a waaaaaahmbulance. Anyone with half a braincell knows why they did that rather than attempt to invade.

And anyone with a quarter braincell knows the attempt of 911 was not human casualty.

[BDunnell]

And anyone with a quarter braincell knows the attempt of 911 was not human casualty.

I must say, I'm not certain I agree with you on this...

[JackSparrow]

So what is your point, if you have one?
It was to this ridiculous claim

Originally Posted by anthonyvop http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=916249#post916249) While I dispute those numbers I will point out one simple fact that you seem to have missed.
Collateral damage is the ugly side of war but no country has done more to prevent it than the USA.....NOBODY!!

[BDunnell]

It was to this ridiculous claim

Originally Posted by anthonyvop http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=916249#post916249) While I dispute those numbers I will point out one simple fact that you seem to have missed.
Collateral damage is the ugly side of war but no country has done more to prevent it than the USA.....NOBODY!!

Tony making a 'ridiculous claim'? Never!

[JackSparrow]

I must say, I'm not certain I agree with you on this...

You can,but if they were after people wouldn't you think that their targets would be different?

[BDunnell]

You can,but if they were after people wouldn't you think that their targets would be different?

Well, if they weren't after human lives, I suppose al-Qaeda could have just shouted their views across Times Square using a megaphone.

[JackSparrow]

Well, if they weren't after human lives, I suppose al-Qaeda could have just shouted their views across Times Square using a megaphone.

The very specific timing of the towers hit strikes me as odd,because if they took them down say at 11 am there would have been 100,000 casualties. That's what I believe anyway.

[Bob Riebe]

The very specific timing of the towers hit strikes me as odd,because if they took them down say at 11 am there would have been 100,000 casualties. That's what I believe anyway.

So they were supposed to ask the airlines to schedule flights at times that better served them?

[Bob Riebe]

It is interesting, Reagan and Bush were severely criticized for their supposed "cowboy" style, but now this is the latest out of the liberal press.

"This is Sunday morning on the syndicated Chris Matthews show. They were talking about Obama and the death of Osama, which happened because Obama shot Osama, and there's this little exchange that they had, it's David Ignatius of the Washington Post.

IGNATIUS: I felt, watching the President Sunday night, that there's an American archetype of the strong, silent person, that person is reticent, but conveys...

MATTHEWS: The cowboy.

IGNATIUS: ... strength.

MATTHEWS: The cowboy. Gary Cooper. Matt Dillon.

IGNATIUS: I saw Obama as a little bit of that cowboy."

[anthonyvop]

It was to this ridiculous claim

Originally Posted by anthonyvop http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=916249#post916249) While I dispute those numbers I will point out one simple fact that you seem to have missed.
Collateral damage is the ugly side of war but no country has done more to prevent it than the USA.....NOBODY!!

Instead of hurtling insults like most liberals why don't you attempt to prove how I am wrong.

[Rollo]

While I dispute those numbers I will point out one simple fact that you seem to have missed.

The 3000 people murdered on 9/11 were targeted. Any innocent civilian that maybe was killed in Afghanistan weren't. Collateral damage is the ugly side of war but no country has done more to prevent it than the USA.....NOBODY!!!

Let me point out a simple fact that you seem to have missed: The people killed in both Afghanistan and New York are PEOPLE. Ordinary people for the most part going about their daily lives, who have been extinguished.


I will have no problem with a 1000 to one kill ratio or higher.

And how do you choose to "celebrate" this? By reducing them to the status of "Collateral Damage". That's disgusting and morally bankrupt.

Where is your humanity sir?

[Bob Riebe]

Ordinary people for the most part going about their daily lives, who have been extinguishe

Ordinary people- who condone honor killings, maiming, torturing and murdering of women for social morarys deserve to be terminated.

Of course a wonderful humane person such as your-self has no problem with these ordinary people doing such things.
How compassionate you are.

[Rollo]

Ordinary people- who condone honor killings, maiming, torturing and murdering of women for social morarys deserve to be terminated.

Of course a wonderful humane person such as your-self has no problem with these ordinary people doing such things.
How compassionate you are.

Tell me Bob since you claim to be a Christian, how do you reconcile your attitude with this?

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven."
- Matthew 5:43-44

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.
- Romans 12:17-19

[Eki]

Instead of hurtling insults like most liberals why don't you attempt to prove how I am wrong.
Well, for example, there was this British war on terrorism in Northern Ireland. I don't remember the Brits causing much collateral damage or raping local teenage girls and murdering their families.

[555-04Q2]

You are sick.

Actually ant, he is honest and right. Neither side cared who died in the respective attacks, thats a fact. If they did, neither would have proceeded.

[555-04Q2]

Instead of hurtling insults like most liberals why don't you attempt to prove how I am wrong.

Easy, virtually every time you type on that keyboard of yours ;)

[cali]

As I have said previouly in this thread alot of American's can relate to 9/11 and its terrible events because they were professional people going about their business when they were attacked in a cowardly fashion. If a few missiles go astray during an air strike and kill 10 or so families who live in sub standard housing by western values, its considered collateral damage by some it seems.

I am quite shocked to see the notion passed here that because certain muslim's support honor killings, and sharia law, this means their lives are worthless in comparison to an American in terms of being intentionally or accidently killed. There certainly are some fruit loops about keeping the stereotypes alive. :eek:

Completely agree with you, but as it turns out, american lives are much more worth than others ....

[Roamy]

Completely agree with you, but as it turns out, american lives are much more worth than others ....

Well I think that depends on who is doing the valuing. I certainly would pick mine first and I am sure that would be a common selection in that you would pick your own. Then begins the pecking order. I would imagine young pretty women would be right up there on mine in spite of which country they came from. Many are probably very happy that I don't get to pick. :)

[ArrowsFA1]

Instead of hurtling insults like most liberals...


You are sick.

I take it you are a liberal then anthonyvop.


Some here roll out the same trolling topics...always attacking others opinions never rarely if ever defending their own.

Indeed they do Bob.


Only in your bigoted ignorant mind.

[cali]

Well I think that depends on who is doing the valuing. I certainly would pick mine first and I am sure that would be a common selection in that you would pick your own. Then begins the pecking order. I would imagine young pretty women would be right up there on mine in spite of which country they came from. Many are probably very happy that I don't get to pick. :)
:D

[markabilly]

Completely agree with you, but as it turns out, american lives are much more worth than others ....

ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

well, maybe not all of them....but mine certainly is!!!

[Bob Riebe]

Tell me Bob since you claim to be a Christian, how do you reconcile your attitude with this?

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven."
- Matthew 5:43-44 Love, pray (help them if you can) but it does not say do not stop evil, nor does it say to not use force, including killing ones enemies as need be. It just says show them love if you can, which, and this is strictly opinion, means do not be of the same evil your enemies are made of.
Remember the same Bible says much about fools and being a fool, which is what pacifists, or those who rather than choose sides, but stand in the middle simply judging others are.

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. IF IT IS POSSIBLE, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.
- Romans 12:17-19 That statement is self-explanatory.


It is really easy to reconcile.
Remember one of Jesus' last commands to his disciples was to sell some clothes if necessary to buy a sword.
Jesus emphasized love, but did not eliminate all that is needed and just to survive. Also remember he was saying this to his disciples who were to continue on representing him and his Father.

[Bob Riebe]

Easy, virtually every time you type on that keyboard of yours ;)
Explain this statement, is says nothing as is. Or is it that you have nothing to say?

[Bob Riebe]

Completely agree with you, but as it turns out, american lives are much more worth than others ....
Your compassion for those murdered in New York says much about your arrogance and self-righteousness.

[Bob Riebe]

I take it you are a liberal then anthonyvop.



Indeed they do Bob.
Quoting out of context, is it that you cannot defend you seeming rhetoric or that your statement is vacuous as is your ability to make a point?

[Eki]

Jesus emphasized love, but did not eliminate all that is needed and just to survive.
Do you think the US is fighting the war on terrorism to survive?

[Bagwan]

An eye for an eye just leaves a lot of blind people behind .

Are you rabid for Saudi lives , too , Bob ?
All those pilots were Saudi Arabians .

Ironic , don't you think , when Saudi planes were the only "no fly" exceptions ?

Now , there are 1000 Saudi soldiers in Bahrain , keeping the peace , whilst the US fleet bases in the background .

And , meanwhile , big Saudi Bin Laden money floats liberally into Dallas .



Who's in charge , Bob ?

[schmenke]

Well, if they weren't after human lives, I suppose al-Qaeda could have just shouted their views across Times Square using a megaphone.

The purpose of the 9/11 attacks were twofold:

1. Target and kill Americans, and;
2. Cripple the U.S. economy.

Al Qaeda accomplished both.

[anthonyvop]

Let me point out a simple fact that you seem to have missed: The people killed in both Afghanistan and New York are PEOPLE. Ordinary people for the most part going about their daily lives, who have been extinguished.

I dispute the ridiculous numbers of casualties. Take off a few zeros


And how do you choose to "celebrate" this? By reducing them to the status of "Collateral Damage". That's disgusting and morally bankrupt.

Where is your humanity sir?

I didn't invent the term.

[anthonyvop]

Do you think the US is fighting the war on terrorism to survive?

The survival of US citizens....YES. Of course you have made it painfully obvious that your blind jealousy condones the deaths of innocent Americans.

[Bob Riebe]

Do you think the US is fighting the war on terrorism to survive?
Defending its citizens, and those who are our allies.

[F1boat]

I tend to agree with that and if it wasn't for the power of propaganda

IMO it's the anti-American propagangda which is extremely powerful...

[Eki]

Defending its citizens, and those who are our allies.
Why just those? Why not all people, or at least innocent people? Why must innocent people in other parts of the world die so that innocent Americans can live?

Pakistan is a US ally. Yet the US has caused "collateral damage" in Pakistan. Would you accept if the British, the Pakistanis or other US allies bombed targets in the US causing "collateral damage"?

[Bob Riebe]

Why just those? Why not all people, or at least innocent people? Why must innocent people in other parts of the world die so that innocent Americans can live?

Pakistan is a US ally. Yet the US has caused "collateral damage" in Pakistan. Would you accept if the British, the Pakistanis or other US allies bombed targets in the US causing "collateral damage"?
Such a scenario is silly, but as you are using an analogy that is void of content, if you are speaking of a David Koresh, Waco, Tx. type scenario, yes there the U.S. govt. should have been charged with murder or at least manslaughter, but he who wins the war, makes the history and that was old news before how barbaric Pres. Clinton's actions were, became common knowledge .

Had Koresh been a truly violent and dangerous force, those that died with him then, would have paid the penalty of sleeping with the devil. Innocence be damned.

[Rollo]

I dispute the ridiculous numbers of casualties. Take off a few zeros

If you dispute them, then please provide a reliable link that you do trust.


I didn't invent the term.

No, but you do endorse the term, agree with it and seemingly approve of it. It still doesn't change your attitude does it? You still choose to hold no value of these people.

[BDunnell]

Quoting out of context, is it that you cannot defend you seeming rhetoric or that your statement is vacuous as is your ability to make a point?

1. An ability to make a point cannot be 'vacuous'. One would never say that somebody has a 'vacuous ability' to make a point. A lack of ability, or similar, perhaps, but there is no such phrase as 'vacuous ability'.

2. '...cannot defend you seeming rhetoric'? Pardon?

If you are to criticise the ability of others in making points, at least do so in a way that makes proper grammatical sense.

[JackSparrow]

Ordinary people- who condone honor killings, maiming, torturing and murdering of women for social morarys deserve to be terminated.

Of course a wonderful humane person such as your-self has no problem with these ordinary people doing such things.
How compassionate you are.
And Americans are the epitome of society? A country where KuKluxKlan is protected by police while they're demonstrating hate,racism etc. What a BS attempt to devalue the lives of the innocent that have died.

[Bob Riebe]

1. An ability to make a point cannot be 'vacuous'. One would never say that somebody has a 'vacuous ability' to make a point. A lack of ability, or similar, perhaps, but there is no such phrase as 'vacuous ability'.

2. '...cannot defend you seeming rhetoric'? Pardon?

If you are to criticize the ability of others in making points, at least do so in a way that makes proper grammatical sense.
---------------------
a·bil·i·ty
   /əˈbɪlɪti/ Show Spelled Show IPA
–noun, plural -ties.
1.
[u]POWER TO DO OR ACT physically, mentally, legally, morally, financially, etc.
2.
competence in an activity or occupation because of one's skill, training, or other qualification: the ability to sing well.
3.
abilities, talents; special skills or aptitudes: Composing music is beyond his abilities.

--------------------
vac·u·ous
   /ˈvækyuəs/ Show Spelled[vak-yoo-uhs] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
without contents; empty: the vacuous air.
2.
lacking in ideas or intelligence: a vacuous mind.
3.
EXPRESSING OR CHARACTERIZED BY A LACK OF IDEAS or intelligence; inane; stupid: a vacuous book.
------------------

You SIR are wrong.

Better wording-- his ability is vacuous.

I do not proof read and one of my computers be without a automatical typo system.

There is no s in criticize, so I fixed it in my quoting your response.

[JackSparrow]

Defending its citizens, and those who are our allies.

You want to defend your citizens allocate more police forces in gang infested cities such as Oakland,New Orleans,Detroit etc. Get real man.

[Bob Riebe]

And Americans are the epitome of society? A country where KuKluxKlan is protected by police while they're demonstrating hate,racism etc. What a BS attempt to devalue the lives of the innocent that have died.
It is called the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

You prefer the system as used in the Soviet Union, or Communist China where you as told or die quickly if you are fortunate and slowly if you are not?

Probably, liberals usually want others to step-inline with THEIR opinions.

[Bob Riebe]

You want to defend your citizens allocate more police forces in gang infested cities such as Oakland,New Orleans,Detroit etc. Get real man.

Are you nuts, the Dem. and liberals would have fits, and lose votes, if they actually enforced the laws that already exist.
They prefer to write more laws to control the conservatives, who, if they get power, might actually force the government to enforce those laws.

[JackSparrow]

It is called the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

You prefer the system as used in the Soviet Union, or Communist China where you as told or die quickly if you are fortunate and slowly if you are not?

Probably, liberals usually want others to step-inline with THEIR opinions.

Yes Bob but don't you find the promotion of hate,racism which has led to hate related crimes just as ridiculous as honor killings which seem despicable to you? But yet you boast for one and cry for the other! Laughable at best.

[JackSparrow]

Are you nuts, the Dem. and liberals would have fits, and lose votes, if they actually enforced the laws that already exist.
They prefer to write more laws to control the conservatives, who, if they get power, might actually force the government to enforce those laws.

We're talking about the US cleaning the world (in order to protect its citizens) when their own house is full of s*** and needs cleaning first.

[Bob Riebe]

Yes Bob but don't you find the promotion of hate,racism which has led to hate related crimes just as ridiculous as honor killings which seem despicable to you?
NO-murder and political opinions are not the same thing.

[JackSparrow]

NO-murder and political opinions are not the same thing.

You don't know much do you?

[Bob Riebe]

You don't know much do you?

Liberal politicians are murders?
OH the humanity.

[anthonyvop]

Yes Bob but don't you find the promotion of hate,racism which has led to hate related crimes just as ridiculous as honor killings which seem despicable to you? But yet you boast for one and cry for the other! Laughable at best.

Freedom of speech isn't there to protect popular speech. It is to protect unpopular speech.

As much as I despise the ideals of groups like the Ku Klux Klan or Muslim extremists I also support their right to espouse their beliefs.

[Roamy]

The purpose of the 9/11 attacks were twofold:

1. Target and kill Americans, and;
2. Cripple the U.S. economy.

Al Qaeda accomplished both.

So over the course of time there appears to be a few problems.
1. The terrorist will continue and when we suffer a big blow some country is probably going to have a lot of collateral damage.
2. The Muslims will continue to kill the Christians to a point where the dominant Christians in this country will turn on the Muslims.
3. I think over the course of time many middle east and west asian countries will become totally muslim and become militant

Now the nice thing is I will probably be gone by the time all this happens but you can probably be assured that something is going to be glowing on planet earth for
quite some time and I don't think it will be Japan's power industry.

I think Jack Sparrow's chip will continue to grow until he burnt for firewood by freezing Fins

[555-04Q2]

Explain this statement, is says nothing as is. Or is it that you have nothing to say?

I was being sarcastic Fanie.....you have no sense of humour, do you?

[555-04Q2]

I think Eki has made it clear he believes there is no difference between innocent dead American's and innocent dead muslims from the middle east. I tend to agree with that and if it wasn't for the power of propaganda we'd all have abit more compassion for human life.

Good post :up:

[cali]

Good post :up:

No, you got it all wrong - american lives are worth much more than muslim civilian lives, this has been made clear for us by some american members here in the forum :dozey:
And ofcourse muslims won't stop until they have turned every other christian into muslim or killed them :eek:


These poor souls are victim of massive propaganda at it its best

And Bob, do no talk about USSR if you do not know nothing about it. I have lived in that regime and your opinions do not reflect the real life in that system. While it was a real big sh!thole, it had some huge advantages over current so-called free econimics where businessmen's only goal is to get rich using child labour etc.

[Bob Riebe]

I was being sarcastic Fanie.....you have no sense of humour, do you?Ah you have nothing to say. As I thought.

[Bob Riebe]

No, you got it all wrong - american lives are worth much more than muslim civilian lives, this has been made clear for us by some american members here in the forum :dozey:
And ofcourse muslims won't stop until they have turned every other christian into muslim or killed them :eek:


These poor souls are victim of massive propaganda at it its best

And Bob, do no talk about USSR if you do not know nothing about it. I have lived in that regime and your opinions do not reflect the real life in that system. While it was a real big sh!thole, it had some huge advantages over current so-called free econimics where businessmen's only goal is to get rich using child labour etc.

Please, please list these so-called advantages.
Please stop saying things about the U.S. I live in that system you know nothing about.

US diplomats say Estonian attitude toward Russia “paranoid” – WikiLeaks

The Estonian authorities have a pessimistic view of the prospects of relations with Moscow, according to a new portion of secret diplomatic cables obtained by WikiLeaks.

Russian Reporter magazine has published a secret cable sent to Washington by US diplomats in Estonia last spring. The cable allegedly concerns Tallinn’s policy toward Russia and Estonia’s place in US-Russian relations.

The cable, attributed to US diplomats, including Ambassador to Tallinn Michael Polt, describes Estonia’s views of the prospects of relations with Russia as “pessimistic.” The country’s defensive posture is even “based on an almost paranoid perception of an imminent Russian attack,” the document says.

The diplomats tried to find positive signs in Estonia’s approach, stressing that the country “is working to temper its political stance on Russia.” In particular, Tallinn prefers to handle bilateral issues with Russia “quietly,” the document reads.

Estonia-Russia consultations are a positive development, the diplomats said. But they also noted that Tallinn defense planners still considered Russia “the biggest threat.” The strained relations “reached a new low” when a monument to Soviet soldiers was removed from downtown Tallinn in 2007.

You must be very lonely having to keep your opinion to yourself

[JackSparrow]

Liberal politicians are murders?
OH the humanity.

So using your logic Al Qaeda are liberal politicians?

[JackSparrow]

Please, please list these so-called advantages.
Please stop saying things about the U.S. I live in that system you know nothing about.

[b]US diplomats say Estonian attitude toward Russia “paranoid” – WikiLeaks


You must be very lonely having to keep your opinion to yourself

Bob you seem like a guy that bases his logic in wikileaks,and it seems you have no personal experience in half the things you debate.

[Bob Riebe]

So using your logic Al Qaeda are liberal politicians?

NO, by your rhetoric they are.

[JackSparrow]

So over the course of time there appears to be a few problems.
1. The terrorist will continue and when we suffer a big blow some country is probably going to have a lot of collateral damage.
2. The Muslims will continue to kill the Christians to a point where the dominant Christians in this country will turn on the Muslims.
3. I think over the course of time many middle east and west asian countries will become totally muslim and become militant

Now the nice thing is I will probably be gone by the time all this happens but you can probably be assured that something is going to be glowing on planet earth for
quite some time and I don't think it will be Japan's power industry.

I think Jack Sparrow's chip will continue to grow until he burnt for firewood by freezing Fins
:laugh: :laugh:
All this post is missing is a burning cross.

[Bob Riebe]

Bob you seem like a guy that bases his logic in wikileaks,and it seems you have no personal experience in half the things you debate.OH I believe you have me confused with Mr. Wikipedia Eki.
That is OK I will forgive you.

[JackSparrow]

NO, by your rhetoric they are.
Mine? YOU called the KKK liberal politicians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan#cite_note-Quarles-5http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan#cite_note-Economist20110402-6http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan#cite_note-Quarles-5http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan#cite_note-7

[JackSparrow]

OH I believe you have me confused with Mr. Wikipedia Eki.
That is OK I will forgive you.

So you have lived under communist regime?

[Bob Riebe]

So you have lived under communist regime?This has what to do with the thread topic, and why are you so concerned?

You know as much about me as I know about you, unless of course you are Carnac the Magnificent.

[Bob Riebe]

Mine? YOU called the KKK liberal politicians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan#cite_note-Quarles-5http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan#cite_note-Economist20110402-6http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan#cite_note-Quarles-5http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan#cite_note-7Where?

[JackSparrow]

This has what to do with the thread topic, and why are you so concerned?

You know as much about me as I know about you, unless of course you are Carnac the Magnificent.

Well I will tell you some of the advantages of the communist regime I lived under; There were no homeless,no missing children,no rapists/child molesters,no drug use and crime was minimal.There were many more as well as a 1000 bad things,but please don't lecture us on things you've read in books or your government has instilled in your mind.

[JackSparrow]

Where?
#457

[JackSparrow]

This has what to do with the thread topic, and why are you so concerned?.

Same as the Russian-Estonian relations which YOU posted above ;) Don't give up now,I'm having so much fun :bounce:

[Eki]

Please, please list these so-called advantages.

How about food on the table, employment and a roof over your head for everyone?

[BDunnell]

Well I will tell you some of the advantages of the communist regime I lived under; There were no homeless,no missing children,no rapists/child molesters,no drug use and crime was minimal.There were many more as well as a 1000 bad things,but please don't lecture us on things you've read in books or your government has instilled in your mind.

I would presume, though, that said country also possessed a secret police force of extreme unpleasantness, as most did; that it denied its people free and fair elections for decades; and that political dissent was not tolerated? If not, maybe you might like to tell us which country you are referring to, and explain why the outside view of such regimes is wrong.

[Bob Riebe]

#457

Quote Originally Posted by JackSparrow View Post
Yes Bob but don't you find the promotion of hate,racism which has led to hate related crimes just as ridiculous as honor killings which seem despicable to you?
----------------------------------
NO-murder and political opinions are not the same thing.

[Bob Riebe]

Same as the Russian-Estonian relations which YOU posted above ;) Don't give up now,I'm having so much fun :bounce:
It was in reply to your jibberish bunky.
It is not surprising you are easily entertained, but it is good you are having a nice day.

[Bob Riebe]

How about food on the table, employment and a roof over your head for everyone?Well the people in the gulags had all that but never got paid for all the work they did.

[F1boat]

Well the people in the gulags had all that but never got paid for all the work they did.

Bob, I came from a country with such regime. The communist regime is built on murder. All that are defending it are defending a system, built on absolute evil. JIMO.

[Bob Riebe]

Well I will tell you some of the advantages of the communist regime I lived under; There were no homeless,no missing children,no rapists/child molesters,no drug use and crime was minimal.There were many more as well as a 1000 bad things,but please don't lecture us ---Why the whining then if you are (- " having so much fun "http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/smilies/bouncy.gif) on things you've read in books or your government has instilled in your mind.
Oh my you wish to trash the U.S. and the net is full of articles about Estonia despising the Russians, hmmm.
If you do not like the exchanges on this forum leave, otherwise you had better get a back-bone as the ishy stuff you are having snit-fit about will not go away.
Have a nice day.

[JackSparrow]

I would presume, though, that said country also possessed a secret police force of extreme unpleasantness, as most did; that it denied its people free and fair elections for decades; and that political dissent was not tolerated? If not, maybe you might like to tell us which country you are referring to, and explain why the outside view of such regimes is wrong.

I was pointing that even such regime had advantages and it's a balancing act.Like every form of government it abused its power.If you read my post you quoted I mentioned it had 1000 wrongs so I'm not denying them.

[JackSparrow]

Well the people in the gulags had all that but never got paid for all the work they did.

Yes the US prison system it's much more generous paying inmates 50 cents a day so they can buy one Coke in the commissary and get stabbed for it later insuring a lifelong "slave" status.

[BDunnell]

I was pointing that even such regime had advantages and it's a balancing act.Like every form of government it abused its power.If you read my post you quoted I mentioned it had 1000 wrongs so I'm not denying them.

Indeed, and I note that. However, if one is to take, say, the East German regime as an example, I would suggest that its 'abuses of power' go some way beyond those of any civilised nation in that same period. The same can probably said for its fellow Soviet Bloc regimes.

[Bob Riebe]

Yes the US prison system it's much more generous paying inmates 50 cents a day so they can buy one Coke in the commissary and get stabbed for it later insuring a lifelong "slave" status.

I assume then you have had the pleasure of going through the U.S. penal system.

If you think our system, in any state, even at it worst level is anything like the Soviet system, you are either a prejudiced twit or just blowing troll smoke.
Our prison system has problems, not executing those on death row quickly whilst the families whose loved ones were murdered pay for their health care with their taxes (prison inmates have the best health care in general of anyone except politicians).
The brutality that often kept prisoners from repeating out of fear is gone, and that is probably a good thing.

The best way to fix the prison system is do not commit crimes, oh wait we do not have political prisoners and over there your society is so perfect that-- "no rapists/child molesters,no drug use and crime was minimal"-- ALL the prisoners are political prisoners.
I guess there is no comparison.

[Rollo]

I assume then you have had the pleasure of going through the U.S. penal system.

If you think our system, in any state, even at it worst level is anything like the Soviet system, you are either a prejudiced twit or just blowing troll smoke.

Or someone who can read:

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/books/for-the-first-time-david-hicks-tells-20101015-16nkl.html
X-Ray was a rudimentary, brutal jail. It was January 2002. His cage there was ''three steps wide by three steps long''. He had two buckets. He had a foam mat and a sheet and towel. Shampoo smelled like ''industrial cleaner'', the toothpaste tube oozed ''a white, smelly liquid''.
He could only sit or lie in the middle. A small wooden covering above the cages blocked the sun for two hours a day. He would lie on his back and stare at the sky, ''an escape, so peaceful, so blue''. There was no standing up, no touching the wire, no talking, no looking around. Breaches meant punishment from the military police's Instant Reaction Force, or IRF, whose beatings came to be known as being ''earthed''.

[Bob Riebe]

Or someone who can read:

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/books/for-the-first-time-david-hicks-tells-20101015-16nkl.html
X-Ray was a rudimentary, brutal jail. It was January 2002. His cage there was ''three steps wide by three steps long''. He had two buckets. He had a foam mat and a sheet and towel. Shampoo smelled like ''industrial cleaner'', the toothpaste tube oozed ''a white, smelly liquid''.
He could only sit or lie in the middle. A small wooden covering above the cages blocked the sun for two hours a day. He would lie on his back and stare at the sky, ''an escape, so peaceful, so blue''. There was no standing up, no touching the wire, no talking, no looking around. Breaches meant punishment from the military police's Instant Reaction Force, or IRF, whose beatings came to be known as being ''earthed''.
Cuba is not a U.S. State.

That is not a U.S. prison system prison and I hope it is as bad as he says, but he is most likely putting forth-- "Hey look at me" -- bull-****, you and others are extremely gullible.
They should have been dealt with in the same manner Obama was but if they want to dance with the devil, stupidity has just rewards.

That book was written to leach money out of suckers.

[cali]

Oh my you wish to trash the U.S. and the net is full of articles about Estonia despising the Russians, hmmm.
If you do not like the exchanges on this forum leave, otherwise you had better get a back-bone as the ishy stuff you are having snit-fit about will not go away.
Have a nice day.

LOL, now it's clear that you do not know anything you're talking about :D :D

But like JackSparrow stated, it's quite amusing to read your posts ...

[555-04Q2]

Ah you have nothing to say. As I thought.

Flirting with the number 12 again are we.....

[Bob Riebe]

Flirting with the number 12 again are we.....
I do not know are you?

[JackSparrow]

you are either a prejudiced twit or just blowing troll smoke.


Thank you.

[Bob Riebe]

Thank you.Your are welcome.

[gadjo_dilo]

Well the people in the gulags had all that but never got paid for all the work they did.

You're probably kidding but it's not fair to joke on such things.

But I presume you've never heard about Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and his great books on gulags.

[Bob Riebe]

You're probably kidding but it's not fair to joke on such things.

But I presume you've never heard about Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and his great books on gulags.I am well aware of Solzhenitsyn, and it was in response to an inane statement from a sparrow.

[Bob Riebe]

I had been wondering about this, as to why the Administration was letting out so many details of the mission to take-out Osama, but now it is on the radio that all that info that the Administration has released has seriously harmed the Navy Seals and other special ops teams ability to perform their operations.
Way to go Obama.

[Roamy]

I had been wondering about this, as to why the Administration was letting out so many details of the mission to take-out Osama, but now it is on the radio that all that info that the Administration has released has seriously harmed the Navy Seals and other special ops teams ability to perform their operations.
Way to go Obama.

It is painfully apparent that this President is in way over his head. His only chance for re-election is to try and pump himself up at every corner. We can only hope that people will know this and he will be long gone. I fear however that the GOP needs Trump to catch on big time or we could be doomed. The GOP keeps propping up the retreads while the new entries appear weak and unprepared to take on the massive problems we now have. We need brash changes on subtle changes.

[airshifter]

I had been wondering about this, as to why the Administration was letting out so many details of the mission to take-out Osama, but now it is on the radio that all that info that the Administration has released has seriously harmed the Navy Seals and other special ops teams ability to perform their operations.
Way to go Obama.

There have been radio broadcasts saying that aliens are landing on earth too. It still doesn't make it true because it's on the radio.

There aren't that many details released from what I have seen, and there certainly isn't anything that the SEALs or any other special ops groups haven't been doing for years. What specific detail is anyone claiming will keep the current special operations missions from being sucessful?

Overall I think Obama is an idiot, but this is one time he got it right. Other than the fact that they seem to have given out differing versions of the specifics, I haven't seen anything released that is harmful.

[markabilly]

Obama did not do squat, except let it sit around so long after we learned Osamymama was there last AUGUST, that Osama could have died from old age, and we would have been robbed of the chance to put a bullet through his eye, dump his body at sea...

anway, not only did he have a pot garden in the yard, for smoking weed, it turns out they found a big porn stash


I figure they also found a big booze stash, but seals being seals, they probably drank it all.....................

[Daniel]

http://www.dailytech.com/Osama+bin+Ladens+Digital+Secrets+Including+Hoard+o f+Porn+Revealed/article21634.htm Apparently Osama liked a bit of pr0n :D

Oops, Markasilly beat me :)

[Eki]

Obama did not do squat, except let it sit around so long after we learned Osamymama was there last AUGUST, that Osama could have died from old age, and we would have been robbed of the chance to put a bullet through his eye, dump his body at sea...

anway, not only did he have a pot garden in the yard, for smoking weed, it turns out they found a big porn stash


I figure they also found a big booze stash, but seals being seals, they probably drank it all.....................
Or seals being seals, they probably planted the porn there to make Bin Laden look bad in the eyes of radical islamists:

http://www.dailytech.com/Osama+bin+Ladens+Digital+Secrets+Including+Hoard+o f+Porn+Revealed/article21634.htm


Much as he grossly violated his own security procedures that he authored in Al Qaeda's handbook -- potentially costing his associates their freedom -- bin Laden appears to have grossly violated central tenants of the radical religion for which he was willing to kill. Hopefully that revelation, along with the wealth of digital information obtained by U.S. Intelligence will deter future would-be terrorists.

[JackSparrow]

Obama did not do squat, except let it sit around so long after we learned Osamymama was there last AUGUST, that Osama could have died from old age, and we would have been robbed of the chance to put a bullet through his eye, dump his body at sea...

anway, not only did he have a pot garden in the yard, for smoking weed, it turns out they found a big porn stash


I figure they also found a big booze stash, but seals being seals, they probably drank it all.....................
I heard it was midget p0rn.

[Bob Riebe]

Or seals being seals, they probably planted the porn there to make Bin Laden look bad in the eyes of radical islamists:
]

Troll, troll, troll your boat....