Ferrari, Kimi and Massa

[Robinho]

I found myself quite surprised this weekend, both by the ultimate pace of Ferrari, and by both Kimi and Massa.

I did not expect Ferrari to be that much quicker than their rivals, and it does seem tha Kimi has been hiding his light under a Gary Bushell, at least until Saturday this weekend, from which point on he seemed untouchable. if he keeps this up he will take the champioship he seems to have missed out on before. of course there is a long way to go but he has made the perfect start.

on the other hand, i was disappointed by Massa, he seemed to be matching MS at the end of last season and should be a genuine title contender this year, but once we hit the competitive sessions (qually onwards) he seemed unable to match Kimi, and whilst he was unlucky to have the failure and ultimately start from the back of the grid i was actually unimpressed with the way he made it through the field.

Given that the car was potentially 3 seconds (at least) faster than the honda's he took an age to get past both whilst other more even cars managed to pass each other at several points on the track. after the Hondas i think most of his passing was done whilst others were pitting. fair play he brought in points from the back of the grid, keeping the car intact, but it seemed to lack the egde that i think he'll need to take the fight to Kimi, or for that matter Alonso

if he is to step up to the plate and replace MS at Ferrari he will have to show more fight than that. much as i didn't like the guy i think MS would have easliy had 4th in Aus from the back of the grid, his skill seemed to getting the best out of the car when it was its worst (ie heaviest).

i'd hope he will do much better in the coming races, but whilst he seems to be able to win from the front i think he struggles when faced with adversity, which he will have to overcome, to win championships you have to rescue big points from seemingly impossible situations, unless you have no real opposition, which this year there seems to be plenty of.

[ioan]

FM drove a solid race, that's all, nothing extraordinary. I was almost yelling to my screen when I saw he was losing around 4 seconds a lap behind RB. In fact he never managed to pass Rubens, only Jenson, luckily Rubens went into the pits.
Maybe it was just to early for him to try some bonehead move ( a la DC ) and lose all his chances, and it was also clear at that stage that he had little chances to get on the podium (KR, NH, LH, FA, RK were all lapping pretty fast).
I though he will at least try a move on Fisi at the end, but he never came close enough and the Renault seemed to have quite some top speed.

[akv89]

Remember last year in winter testing. Massa was quickest then too, even faster than Michael. But we know what happened during the season. Then again, it has only been one race and we can't immediately come to any conclusions on Massa's ability. Let's wait it out. I'm just happy that right now, Ferrari have two competent drivers and have developed a competitive car.

[Shalafi]

Good thoughts, Robinho. I agree. As for Kimi, he even didnt show his real pace today. He said that he could of driven much faster. Its scary because he was today over 1s faster with his fastest lap than anyone else. It tells a lot about his ability and also how good Ferrari is at the moment. Kimi doesnt crumble under pressure and he will only get better.

As for Massa, I think the same, he was disappointing. He should of easily got to 4th place. He just lacks that killer instinct that Kimi has and Michael had. He can be very fast when his confidence is high and everything goes right for him. But I cant see a WDC in him. Good, fast, unpredictable and little "soft" driver. Good second driver for a big team or perfect first driver in a smaller team, IMO.

[Robinho]

Good thoughts, Robinho. I agree. As for Kimi, he even didnt show his real pace today. He said that he could of driven much faster. Its scary because he was today over 1s faster with his fastest lap than anyone else. It tells a lot about his ability and also how good Ferrari is at the moment. Kimi doesnt crumble under pressure and he will only get better.

As for Massa, I think the same, he was disappointing. He should of easily got to 4th place. He just lacks that killer instinct that Kimi has and Michael had. He can be very fast when his confidence is high and everything goes right for him. But I cant see a WDC in him. Good, fast, unpredictable and little "soft" driver. Good second driver for a big team or perfect first driver in a smaller team, IMO.

i think you are right, sure he will win races, but can he string it together for a whole season?

i get the feeling some people are building him up as a potential MS replacement, cos if he gets soundly beaten by Kimi, the way that MS beat him, or even better then that, it somehow devalues MS in their eyes.

[ioan]

I agree. As for Kimi, he even didnt show his real pace today. He said that he could of driven much faster.

:rolleyes: Of course, 1 second/lap faster was just sand bagging, he could have went much faster, so fast that he would have lapped everyone, including himself. :p :

[ioan]

i get the feeling some people are building him up as a potential MS replacement, cos if he gets soundly beaten by Kimi, the way that MS beat him, or even better then that, it somehow devalues MS in their eyes.

We are approaching dangerous waters with this subject involving MS' value vs KR's value...

[Shalafi]

:rolleyes: Of course, 1 second/lap faster was just sand bagging, he could have went much faster, so fast that he would have lapped everyone, including himself. :p :

Whats your problem? I just wrote what he said... Ferrari was so fast that he didnt have to push at all. If you got some problem with me send me a PM...

[wedge]

I don't think its hardly surprising.

Everyone knows about Kimi's laissez faire attitude. Qualy and race are the most important sessions - practice and testing is absolutely meaningless to Kimi.

Kimi's raw speed in sensational and Massa thrives on confidence.

Look at Q1 and Q2 - Massa struggled to match Kimi when is mattered. Massa looked very emotional, almost looked liked a man destroyed when seeing Kimi topping the time sheets in Q3.

However I'm still open-minded. Today's race didn't show the Ferrari drivers fighting each other.

The season's just started and Massa won't easily be beaten yet at this point in time.

[F1boat]

Whats your problem? I just wrote what he said... Ferrari was so fast that he didnt have to push at all. If you got some problem with me send me a PM...

Shalafi, I don't think that if he was faster he would have beaten this lap, or not by much - I guess that he would have made SEVERAL laps by 1.25, instead of two, which would have made his rivals look stupid. But why risking the car? What I liked about Kimi yesterday is that he was fast as good ol' Kimi we all know and love, but smart as M Shumacher.
I hope that the car will remain dominating, because Rakkonen deserves it.

[Mikko]

Shalafi, I don't think that if he was faster he would have beaten this lap, or not by much - I guess that he would have made SEVERAL laps by 1.25, instead of two, which would have made his rivals look stupid. But why risking the car? What I liked about Kimi yesterday is that he was fast as good ol' Kimi we all know and love, but smart as M Shumacher.
I hope that the car will remain dominating, because Rakkonen deserves it.

I agree 100%!

[Shalafi]

Shalafi, I don't think that if he was faster he would have beaten this lap, or not by much - I guess that he would have made SEVERAL laps by 1.25, instead of two, which would have made his rivals look stupid. But why risking the car? What I liked about Kimi yesterday is that he was fast as good ol' Kimi we all know and love, but smart as M Shumacher.
I hope that the car will remain dominating, because Rakkonen deserves it.

Yes, for sure...that was what I ment. Im not thinking that he could of driven some 1.23 laps... ;) Because those 1.25 laps comparing to others were absolutely stunning. 1s/lap in F1 is completely different level of driving. And yes, its so nice to see him driving cleverly when all these years people have just said that he doesnt know anything but drive full-out and breaking cars because of that. Its just that he had no choice before because car has not been good enough. Now it is and he can really control races "MS-like"... :)

[Ranger]

Felipe tries hard, but ultimately he thrives on confidence and is much more succeptible to pressure than Kimi and it showed.

Unlike what some expert commentators think, I don't think Felipe will be in the title race for the reason that he is going to be psychologically weakened when beaten this year. Hence I'll predict that he'll have a year similar to Fisi last year.

[Ian McC]

Felipe tries hard, but ultimately he thrives on confidence and is much more succeptible to pressure than Kimi and it showed.

Unlike what some expert commentators think, I don't think Felipe will be in the title race for the reason that he is going to be psychologically weakened when beaten this year. Hence I'll predict that he'll have a year similar to Fisi last year.

People do expect a lot of him this year but I don't think he will take much if anything away from Kimi

[ArrowsFA1]

Lost somewhere in all the (deserved) hoopla surrounding Hamilton's performance was the fact that Kimi was comforably quickest in qualifying and his fastest lap was 1s faster than anyone else. That's impressive, and worrying for the opposition.

[Ian McC]

Lost somewhere in all the (deserved) hoopla surrounding Hamilton's performance was the fact that Kimi was comforably quickest in qualifying and his fastest lap was 1s faster than anyone else. That's impressive, and worrying for the opposition.

Indeed, I have a nasty feeling from a race spectacle point of view this season may get very boring.

[longisland]

I remembered Kimi said he went off track because he was looking at something else.... that's what i called total commitment

[ArrowsFA1]

I remembered Kimi said he went off track because he was looking at something else.... that's what i called total commitment
Mmmm :dozey: ...he could have ended up in the wall like Albers.

Commitment, or a lack of concentration?

[jens]

If you wonder, why Massa didn't rise quicker, then Albert Park is one of the toughest circuits for overtaking.

And as you are talking about Massa's weak psychology, then... I don't remember him making any mistakes, so these conclusions might have been made a bit early.

And as you were talking about Q1, then it was seen that Massa took the lap very easily - he was almost lazy in the last corners to surely finish the lap without errors and just qualify into Top16. It seemed that he took it more easily in Q1 than Kimi.

And about the laptimes of race - Massa was on one-stopper. In a heavy car it was difficult to overtake and it was tough to make a very fast lap with worn tires later on.

[Garry Walker]

Ferraris advantage really isnt as big as it seemed, McLaren in reality is very little off of their pace (maybe 2-3 tenths).
Massa was stuck all day long, if he had managed to start from the front of the grid with equal strategy he would have beaten Kimi, but due to the gearbox problems that was obviously impossible.

[tinchote]

And about the laptimes of race - Massa was on one-stopper. In a heavy car it was difficult to overtake and it was tough to make a very fast lap with worn tires later on.

Indeed, with that variable in mind, it's hard to compare performances.

In the end, I'm not sure if going for a single stop was the best decision.

[Tazio]

Indeed, with that variable in mind, it's hard to compare performances.

In the end, I'm not sure if going for a single stop was the best decision.
If he had gone for a two stopper, soft tires, and light fuel ala Nick, he may have gained just as many positions as he did before his first stop. he then would have been light when the upper mids had full fuel second stint! With a good second stint he could have moved up! It's easy to second guess now!

[Robinho]

...Massa was stuck all day long, if he had managed to start from the front of the grid with equal strategy he would have beaten Kimi, but due to the gearbox problems that was obviously impossible....

this is definite is it, no allowance for discussion, Massa WOULD have beaten Kimi from the front of the grid, no ifs, no buts, no maybes, no grey areas.

i expect if the Ferraris had started at the front they would have finished one-two, and i personally think Kimi would have shaded it, but i wouldn't say it was a certainty, why so eager to belive that Massa will beat Kimi when they have the same opportunity, what is it about Kimi beating Massa that hits a nerve.

[Robinho]

If he had gone for a two stopper, soft tires, and light fuel ala Nick, he may have gained just as many positions as he did before his first stop. he then would have been light when the upper mids had full fuel second stint! With a good second stint he could have moved up! It's easy to second guess now!

i was a little surprised at that strategy too, especially given the likelihood of a safety car in Aus (the teams were working on something like 58% likelihood), in a light (normal) car Massa could have cut through the field early and then on a 2 stopper could have optimised the "option" tyre rather than having to nurse them to the end as i presume he did.

whilst impressive to have made 6th by race end, is just wasn't that special, not like if MS had been doing it, Massa seemed to be letting the race happen around him, MS would have taken it and used the race for him, i think therin lies the ultimate difference between good and great, and i think Massa will be left this season by Kimi being "Great" more times than "Good"

I want Massa to do well because I'm a Ferrari fan, but for the life of me I'm not sure where this idea that he is a potential world champion has come from.

Last year he won two races and was close to Schumachers pace on occasions, but at other times he was simply nowhere near (Melbourne, Monaco, Canada & Monza spring to mind most readily).

The simple fact is that a driver who has days when they don't get the best out of the car, whatever the best of the car is on the day, isn't going to be a championship challenger.

There was an article in Autosport towards the end of last year that pointed out that, over the season, Fisichella was actually closer in lap-times to Alonso than Massa was to Michael.

Nobody believes Fisichella is a championship contender anymore, do they? So why believe Massa could be?

Kimi, on the other hand, rarely does less than what the car is capable of on the day. OK, not always because he nor anyone else is unbeatable, but just about 95% of the time he is on the money.

That's the difference.

[Dzeidzei]

...why so eager to belive that Massa will beat Kimi when they have the same opportunity, what is it about Kimi beating Massa that hits a nerve.

There is a simple answer to this. I someone hates Kimi (for whatever reason, he hasnt been too open about it) then he hates Kimi. Period. Kimi winning races will cause pain for this guy this season. A lot of pain.

But thats his problem and I hope bashing Kimi eases his pain. Altho I doubt it. But who cares, the Tifosi will love KR for delivering stuff like the race on Sunday.

[jjanicke]

Shalafi, I don't think that if he was faster he would have beaten this lap, or not by much - I guess that he would have made SEVERAL laps by 1.25, instead of two, which would have made his rivals look stupid. But why risking the car? What I liked about Kimi yesterday is that he was fast as good ol' Kimi we all know and love, but smart as M Shumacher.
I hope that the car will remain dominating, because Rakkonen deserves it.

:up:


Ferraris advantage really isnt as big as it seemed, McLaren in reality is very little off of their pace (maybe 2-3 tenths).
Massa was stuck all day long, if he had managed to start from the front of the grid with equal strategy he would have beaten Kimi, but due to the gearbox problems that was obviously impossible.

Very bold statement. Unfortunately, for you, it's just your own speculation and not fact as you seem to be implying.

[akv89]

I want Massa to do well because I'm a Ferrari fan, but for the life of me I'm not sure where this idea that he is a potential world champion has come from.

Last year he won two races and was close to Schumachers pace on occasions, but at other times he was simply nowhere near (Melbourne, Monaco, Canada & Monza spring to mind most readily).

The simple fact is that a driver who has days when they don't get the best out of the car, whatever the best of the car is on the day, isn't going to be a championship challenger.

There was an article in Autosport towards the end of last year that pointed out that, over the season, Fisichella was actually closer in lap-times to Alonso than Massa was to Michael.

Nobody believes Fisichella is a championship contender anymore, do they? So why believe Massa could be?

Kimi, on the other hand, rarely does less than what the car is capable of on the day. OK, not always because he nor anyone else is unbeatable, but just about 95% of the time he is on the money.

That's the difference.

:up:

[revmeister]

Not to say that Massa is faster... but it seems to me that his one stop strategy was flawed because of the rule stating you have to use both compounds during the race. The softs aren't going to be that effective for half a race. A two stopper with softs for a short stint at the beginning might have got him by the backmarkers a little quicker.

Kimi also had nothing but clean air from the beginning and that's a big advantage.

They had different races to drive, so a firm comparison is hard to make after that race.

[Garry Walker]

There is a simple answer to this. I someone hates Kimi (for whatever reason, he hasnt been too open about it) then he hates Kimi. Period. Kimi winning races will cause pain for this guy this season. A lot of pain.

But thats his problem and I hope bashing Kimi eases his pain. Altho I doubt it. But who cares, the Tifosi will love KR for delivering stuff like the race on Sunday.

I dont hate Kimi at all, I have nothing against him, but I rate simply Massa more highly. Im quite indifferent to Kimi. My hate is reserved for scum like Montoya.

[akv89]

[quote="Garry Walker"]I dont hate Kimi at all, I have nothing against him, but I rate simply Massa more highly. [quote]
Could you elaborate on this belief? I'm very curious as to how you came to a conclusion like that.

[Garry Walker]

I dont hate Kimi at all, I have nothing against him, but I rate simply Massa more highly.

Could you elaborate on this belief? I'm very curious as to how you came to a conclusion like that.

That Massa is better? Well, for starters Peter Sauber himself said that Massa is quicker than Kimi and wintertesting has also shown that.

[wedge]

[quote="Garry Walker":1jmyojkx]I dont hate Kimi at all, I have nothing against him, but I rate simply Massa more highly.

That Massa is better? Well, for starters Peter Sauber himself said that Massa is quicker than Kimi and wintertesting has also shown that.[/quote:1jmyojkx]

Kimi hates testing. He just wants to drive on the absolute limit. Thats his natural driving instinct.

When it matters Kimi's flying laps in qualy were quicker than Massa's attempts.

[akv89]

[quote="Garry Walker":gwaprdgh]I dont hate Kimi at all, I have nothing against him, but I rate simply Massa more highly.

That Massa is better? Well, for starters Peter Sauber himself said that Massa is quicker than Kimi and wintertesting has also shown that.[/quote:gwaprdgh]
And that's it?
How about the fact that Raikkonen twice challenged for the world championship? How about Raikkonen being considered on of the best drivers on the grid for 4 years now (I recall that you also believed this when Raikkonen was in contention for the 2005 championship)? How about Suzuka 2005? Are you saying that you are willing to ignore all of that and immediately come to the conclusion that Massa is faster than Raikkonen only for these two reasons.

Of course Massa was quicker during testing. He spent all of last year with ferrari and Kimi is just getting accustomed to his new team. Massa was quite often quicker than Michael Schumacher during winter testing last year, his first year with Ferrari. Do you think Massa is better than Schumacher?

As for Peter Sauber, I respect him and don't doubt his ability to determine which driver had better pace, after all, he was the one who brought Raikkonen to F1. However, he is comparing two drivers with different amount of experience and who have driven for Sauber in different years. Raikkonen took part in 23 four-wheeler races in total before joining F1. Yet he was impressive in his first year and his skill has dramatically improved as the years rolled by.

By the looks of what happenned at Australia, Massa was nowhere close to Kimi (I'm looking at fastest laps, not the position). Granted that Massa was on a heavier fuel strategy, but 1.8 seconds is a bit too much, or at least enough to raise an eyebrow for anyone who believes that Massa is completely superior to Kimi.

I'm not saying that Massa is not a skilled driver, nor do I expect you to believe that Kimi is faster than Massa. Massa was impressive last year but to me, but he didn't show any spectacular drives characteristic of champions yet. What I am asking you to do is to understand the fact things don't always go the way you expect them to; so you need to develop some humility and come to terms with the fact there is a possibility, not a certainty, that Raikkonen is as quick as or faster than Massa.

[ioan]

When it matters Kimi's flying laps in qualy were quicker than Massa's attempts.

Let's say that when it really mattered to do the very fast lap (Q3) Massa's car was broken.

[ioan]

i was a little surprised at that strategy too, especially given the likelihood of a safety car in Aus (the teams were working on something like 58% likelihood), in a light (normal) car Massa could have cut through the field early and then on a 2 stopper could have optimised the "option" tyre rather than having to nurse them to the end as i presume he did.

whilst impressive to have made 6th by race end, is just wasn't that special, not like if MS had been doing it, Massa seemed to be letting the race happen around him, MS would have taken it and used the race for him, i think therin lies the ultimate difference between good and great, and i think Massa will be left this season by Kimi being "Great" more times than "Good"

I think this wrong strategy had something to do with Ross Brawn fishing somewhere in New Zealand.
None the less I was impressed with Felipe being able to do such a long stint on those softer tires.

[akv89]

Let's say that when it really mattered to do the very fast lap (Q3) Massa's car was broken.
I was not the one who made that claim. It says in my computer that you took that quote from me.

[ioan]

I was not the one who made that claim. It says in my computer that you took that quote from me.

I'm really sorry, I did miss a few [Quote] when I replied. Can't change it now though. Maybe one of the mods will repair it if it is that much disturbing for you.

[N. Jones]

My Two Cents:

Who gives a damn? Kimi started at the front and Massa started at the back. What was Felipe supposed to do, take the "aerial route" that Coultard took?

[100%hondafan]

i think we should give it 2-3 raced before judging.

clearly massa was as quick when on similar tyres/fuel in practise

but we cant compare due to what happened in quili.

massa drove a good race.

role on the next few meetings to really see how he goes compared to kimi.

[jas123f1]

Kimi made a god job in Melbourne BUT we shouldn’t forget that Massa had a bad luck on this weekend. I'm sure he will be very fast in Malaysia and I’m sure that the difference between Ferrari drivers is almost zero now.
Earlier I was thinking that Massa still should be the quicker one at leaste to Bahrain, but after Kimis show I Melbourne I change my mind – today I think it’s fifty-fifty between them. It will be interesting when the show goes on in Malaysia..

I’m sure they are working very hard and hopefully they work together as much as needed to keep the advantage they have today. If they do it more for team than for them shelves, then I think Ferrari can be unbeatable a long time.

McLaren and Alonso is working very hard and Hamilton is pushing him like a fire in his back, so McLaren will be very competitive and dangerous very shortly and can beat Ferrari quicker than people believe if they don’t work very hard to improve the car as much they can.

[wedge]

Let's say that when it really mattered to do the very fast lap (Q3) Massa's car was broken.

But still, Q2 is very important session. That's when you really lay down the gauntlet. Testing and Fridays is just data gathering. Qualy is when you unleash the true potential because its the true speed of the car in low fuel.

Schumi was supreme last year. He would drive on the absolute limit in Q2 and it was up to Alonso to respond. That's one of the reasons why Schumi took the WDC battle down to the wire. Really gave the Renault something to think about in terms of race strategy and testing Alonso's race-craft.

[ottostreet]

But still, Q2 is very important session. That's when you really lay down the gauntlet. Testing and Fridays is just data gathering. Qualy is when you unleash the true potential because its the true speed of the car in low fuel.

Schumi was supreme last year. He would drive on the absolute limit in Q2 and it was up to Alonso to respond. That's one of the reasons why Schumi took the WDC battle down to the wire. Really gave the Renault something to think about in terms of race strategy and testing Alonso's race-craft.

maybe so, but wasn't massa only on his outlap in q2 when the gearbox broke? i would assume any lap he would have put in would be quicker than the likes of davidson and webber etc.?

[Hawkmoon]

I started a thread in preseason about Massa's rise to prominence over the winter because I also don't quite understand why he suddenly became a world title contender in many peoples eyes.

As for the weekend, I think he drove pretty well. Considering he drove literally half the race on the soft tyres that weren't supposed to last more than a few laps, 6th place wasn't all that bad.

Raikkonen's dominance came as quite a pleasent surprise but I'm pretty sure it won't last. McLaren may even have the edge in the reliability stakes this season, as strange a concept as that may be.

[wmcot]

I'm not sure what all the controversy is about? Kimi uses testing to get comfortable with the car, nothing more.

The race was like many past races we have seen from Kimi where he simply vanishes in the distance...with the difference that he doesn't have the fragile McLaren to let him down now! Who knows how many races he would have one in the past doing exactly the same thing if he had a reliable car?

As for Massa - he can be very fast, but now he has shown that he can also be smart by carefully moving up into the points when he would have lost all hope in the past.

Massa seems to have matured while Kimi is as blinding as ever once the lights go out!

[ioan]

But still, Q2 is very important session.

Massa's car broke when he was doing his laps for the Q2 so I don't see your point.

[leopard]

I think This season would be culmination point of Kimi’s career in F1. To hold degree the Generationext of Schumi, his ability is supposed to gain every feedback from Ferrari.

Ferrari is the most ideal vehicle to prove everyone story about fast driver isn’t a fairy tale, the most of those ready about ‘engine freeze rule’ when they ended up last season at best, while everyone-else in their observation developing a fast and reliable car with compromised aerodynamic package.

Massa, previously only was an average driver before driving Ferrari, has drawn impression of us during pre-season testing to be the quickest besides his climbing trend-line of last season, would also reasonably to claim driver challenging the title, could be an advantage or disadvantage if the team cannot accommodate character of their driver correctly.

However it won’t last, BMW and particularly McLaren who has strong commitment for the title paying highly the reigning champ, will stay closely with them, so be careful!

[Dzeidzei]

[quote="Garry Walker":2a3aavzl]I dont hate Kimi at all, I have nothing against him, but I rate simply Massa more highly.

That Massa is better? Well, for starters Peter Sauber himself said that Massa is quicker than Kimi and wintertesting has also shown that.[/quote:2a3aavzl]

I find your first comment funny, cause all your posts say the exact opposite. However, on your 2nd comment: you count wintertesting a bigger proof of speed than the race on Sunday?

Did you see the race? Did you see the lap times? Are you blind? Have you run out on medication? (sorry, thats out of line)

Anyway, this is what I firmly believe. Racers show their real speed in races. Kimi crushed everyone on Sunday, including Massa. Yes he was on different strategy, yes he had problems in quali, yes blahblahblah. Its this kind of bs that is really annoying. If KR is beaten I will accept that. I wish that applied to all forum members.

But it doesnt. There are still people who think that JPM was faster than Kimi. There are probably people who think DC was faster than Kimi. And there are people who will think FM is faster than Kimi no matter what. No evidence will ever be strong enough. I find that both sad and amusing.

[XR8]

I was watching Massa in Qualy and saw him hit a ripple strip pretty hard with his back wheel and then he had the problem! Don't know weather his gearbox failure caused him to hit the kerb or the other way around but when I saw this I thought straight away this would not be good for the drive line!

[leopard]

Engine or gearbox failure could possibly have correlation with human [driver] error, every small mistake has potency you pay for bigger consequences. Swaying or unstably driving car trough the wrong lane can cause that failure.

Therefore engine failure isn't totally because it has poor reliability if you are not sure it's driven properly...

[ioan]

Engine or gearbox failure could possibly have correlation with human [driver] error, every small mistake has potency you pay for bigger consequences. Swaying or unstably driving car trough the wrong lane can cause that failure.

Therefore engine failure isn't totally because it has poor reliability if you are not sure it's driven properly...

You mean that Kimi might have been the cause of his DNF's in 2005? Kimi fans won't be happy with that statement, well maybe only if they apply it to Felipe!

[SteveA]

Engine or gearbox failure could possibly have correlation with human [driver] error, every small mistake has potency you pay for bigger consequences. Swaying or unstably driving car trough the wrong lane can cause that failure.

Therefore engine failure isn't totally because it has poor reliability if you are not sure it's driven properly...

On the other hand, you could say that the car has not been designed or engineered to a high enough standard to take that driver's style. If the same driver treated another manufacturer's car in the same way it might not break, so therefore it would be considered more reliable.

[ioan]

I find your first comment funny, cause all your posts say the exact opposite. However, on your 2nd comment: you count wintertesting a bigger proof of speed than the race on Sunday?

Did you see the race? Did you see the lap times? Are you blind?

Well, did you see the race? Did you see the qualifying sessions? Do you know that you can't post the same lap times with twice as much fuel in the car while you have to deal with passing slower drivers on a difficult to overtake circuit?
It seems tome that you did/do not!



Have you run out on medication? (sorry, thats out of line)

Why post it if you know it's out of line? Makes you feel better and stronger than those who use a civilized way of communication?


Anyway, this is what I firmly believe. Racers show their real speed in races. Kimi crushed everyone on Sunday, including Massa. Yes he was on different strategy, yes he had problems in quali, yes blahblahblah.

All you do is blah blah and blah blah after only 1 race with 2 drivers having to race in different conditions, cool down mate you make yourself look like an idiot.


Its this kind of bs that is really annoying.

:rolleyes: You're doing exactly the same.


If KR is beaten I will accept that.


We shall see.

This kind of views and posts from some of the KR fans will always keep me a bit cold about Kimi at Ferrari.

Rant over.

[Ian McC]

This kind of views and posts from some of the KR fans will always keep me a bit cold about Kimi at Ferrari.

I wouldn't go there, let's face it, we've seen far worse from fans of other drivers before :D

[ioan]

I wouldn't go there, let's face it, we've seen far worse from fans of other drivers before :D

Yep it was the same with Alonso and Montoya, and I actually like JPM before he came to F1.

[Dzeidzei]

Well, did you see the race? Did you see the qualifying sessions? Do you know that you can't post the same lap times with twice as much fuel in the car while you have to deal with passing slower drivers on a difficult to overtake circuit?
It seems tome that you did/do not!


Well, just FYI. There comes a point for every driver and car in every race, where they are low on fuel and should be able to do those quick laps. Massa was on a one-stop strategy and used softer tyres for the first stint. Still at the end of race he was not able to match Kimi´s speed (actually he wasnt even close) with medium tyres and low fuel. Now you can argue that he was behind slower cars, but however you try to say it, Massa did not impress. He should have gone past the Hondas and hit those fast laps.

Or do you argue that Massa was running all the time with some extra fuel onboard? That would be about the most stupid thing you could say.



Why post it if you know it's out of line? Makes you feel better and stronger than those who use a civilized way of communication?

Nopes, buddy. Its out of frustration. We cannot discuss anything worth while if you stick to beliefs even tho all the facts state the opposite.



All you do is blah blah and blah blah after only 1 race with 2 drivers having to race in different conditions, cool down mate you make yourself look like an idiot.

I could not care less how you see me. I think KR will prove the same stuff in Malesia and in Bahrain and I was expecting him to be quicker only after they came to Europe. I only underestimated him, and basicly went along with the hype on Massa and the wintertesting. And for that I do feel stupid.



This kind of views and posts from some of the KR fans will always keep me a bit cold about Kimi at Ferrari.

This doesnt apply to all Kimi fans, but it does apply to most Finns: we like to base our thought on facts and are in your mind probably very boring because of that. If Massa shows more speed, I´ll be happy to admit that he is faster. I dont believe theres a chance in hell for that, but we´ll see.

If Kimi is faster all the time and for all the season, I DONT expect you to admit that he is faster than Massa. You will stick to your belief and be happy in your little head. And you have every right to.

Thats the way it is.

[Shalafi]

And about the laptimes of race - Massa was on one-stopper. In a heavy car it was difficult to overtake and it was tough to make a very fast lap with worn tires later on.

Both made their fastest laptimes just before pitstop, Kimi before his second pitstop. So both had equally light car. Massa had driven those tires 28 laps, Kimi 22 laps...I dont know how much difference that 6 laps in tyre-worn makes in time but it sure is not even close to that 1.8s that was their difference in their fastest laps. Maybe couple of tenths, at most half a second or so... So, Kimi was amazingly fast and/or Massa surprisingly slow. But anyway, that is a huge difference and no "strategy-choice" can explain it.

I just wonder why it is so difficult to some people admit how dominant Kimi was and how relatively poor Massas performance in that superfast car was...If it were MS instead of Kimi, there would be no end for praising him.

[airshifter]

Massa drove a good race, he simply didn't have the advantage of starting in a better position due to the car failure. My view is that any "average" mishap in a car such as Massa had hitting the curb should be within the design of the car limits, as even the best drivers will bump something now and then.

I still think Kimi will outperform Massa when the cars both hold up, but only time will tell. To finish in the points after starting at the back of the pack is by no means a poor race. Being the first race, he and/or the team may well have settled for attempting to get in the points to salvage the race, rather than risk losing the car by pushing too hard for a better finish.

Speaking of Finnish, let me say again that I think Kimi is the better driver over a race distance. :)

[wedge]

Massa's car broke when he was doing his laps for the Q2 so I don't see your point.

Did you not follow the Kimi/Massa battle in qualy?

Kimi was pulling laps out of the bag and Massa was struggling to keep up by a couple of tenths up until Massa's gearbox broke.

Massa thrives on confidence. He's been fastest in testing/practice but then suddenly Kimi is beating him in qualy. Then suddenly Kimi is beating him out from no-where. That's going to put a slight dent on Massa, but it will make him work that extra bit better as the season goes on.

My money's on Kimi edging out Massa.

[ioan]

Did you not follow the Kimi/Massa battle in qualy?

The first 2 qualy sessions are just for the slow cars to be eliminated, why should Felipe have gone any faster when other cars were 2 seconds slower anyway?

What matter is to have at least the 16th time in Q1 and 10th in Q2 than it starts the real deal where you have to be fast, but Felipe never had the chance to get there.

And no I didn't follow no Kimi vs Felipe battle in qualy because there was none as one of the gearboxes gave up.

[wedge]

EDIT

[kalasend]

Massa was on a one-stop strategy and used softer tyres for the first stint.

I heard the softer tyres are effective only for small number of laps. If he had used it in his first stint that would be even worse considering that period of time is where he would be running with the slower cars.

Discounting the DNFs, Massa passed 11 drivers in totally (could be more since he might have passed some DNFs). That's 1 driver passed every 5~6 laps. That's also one potential DNF for Massa every 5~6 laps. Considering his goal was changed from winning to scoring after the gearbox problem, Massa delivered a very solid result.

Not extraordinary, yes. But neither was Kimi's result. Given a reliably fast car and pole, who the heck really got surprised by Kimi's result? If there's any surprise, that surprise would come from Ferrari's car.

Now that I think of it, given a reliably fast car plus pole position, Kimi's done it before, Alonso's done it before, Massa's done it before too, and Schumacher's done it countless times. But Kimi's more extraordinary? I do like Kimi a lot. But you Kimi fans need to drink less.

[kalasend]

I think Kimi is faster over race distance. But that difference between him and Massa is not as large as this last GP shows. People are simply wrong to compare two drivers having to face different race conditions.

[Dzeidzei]

I heard the softer tyres are effective only for small number of laps. If he had used it in his first stint that would be even worse considering that period of time is where he would be running with the slower cars.

But you Kimi fans need to drink less.

Finnish MTV3 showed the tyre compounds used by every driver. Apparently BS went public with the tyres used, but I didnt look it up. Usually MTV3 is pretty reliable on matters like these, so theres no reason to doubt the info.

The interesting thing is that the softer tyres seemed to work fine, at least in Melbourne. Massas 1st stint was long and I didnt hear him complaying about the tyres melting under him.

Most drivers where on medium-medium-soft tyres. Except Heidfeld who started on softer tyres.

And on your request to drink less. I hear you, but hell no :)

[leopard]

On the other hand, you could say that the car has not been designed or engineered to a high enough standard to take that driver's style. If the same driver treated another manufacturer's car in the same way it might not break, so therefore it would be considered more reliable.

I didn't se your message has a cross in purpose with mine, If this referred to Alonso's request about adopting Renault for McLaren, you might have found the answear from Albert Park.

[leopard]

You mean that Kimi might have been the cause of his DNF's in 2005? Kimi fans won't be happy with that statement, well maybe only if they apply it to Felipe!

Generally, digitally engineered car like F1, unless that advanced technology could deliver great speed, are more fragile against shaking and improper treatment than street car.

Felipe might be the case for his gearbox failure in Melbourne, while McLaren's failure in 2005 caused by their drivers wasn't something out of question. They won 10 of 18 races in 2005, the biggest opportunity challenging title if everything was right in order.

[Roamy]

I can wait to see these two go head to head!!

[ioan]

Felipe might be the case for his gearbox failure in Melbourne, while McLaren's failure in 2005 caused by their drivers wasn't something out of question.

I don't know about McLaren but J Todt said that Felipe had an electrical (or electronic don't remember it exactly) problem with his gearbox, so I doubt it was because he was aggressive.

[jas123f1]

In my mind it’s not so important to know who is quicker of them (we have to wait and see), because both drivers are very good. According to JT the team has not any first driver at the moment and that is the most important. It was a long time a go it was like that at Ferrari, so let’s hope that will be a normal situation in the future. I think both drivers can win races and team has a big chance to be the best team in 2007 season. In my mind it’s not good idea to go on with that old “Ferrari system” with first and second driver. What’s needed is teamwork and free competing between drivers however as far as they have own chance to win DWC title and I’m sure when one of them realise that his chances for the year are gone, then he will help his team mate, but it should be very bad for the team to try to make one of them to first and more important for the team. Massa is “old” in the team and loyal against the Ferrari and Kimi is NOT a second driver, (the idea is quite alien to him) I think he can help Massa temporary if he realise that his own chances are gone but not before (and I’m sure every one at Ferrari knows that). So imo is the most important thing just now team work, nothing more. :)

[Tomi]

Engine or gearbox failure could possibly have correlation with human [driver] error, every small mistake has potency you pay for bigger consequences. Swaying or unstably driving car trough the wrong lane can cause that failure.

Therefore engine failure isn't totally because it has poor reliability if you are not sure it's driven properly...

Really? Can can you explaine how a driver can brake a gearbox in todays F1.

[jjanicke]

I don't know why I'm reading so many posts about the soft tires only having a few laps in them. This is simply not true, and I believe is an exaggeration of what is really going on.

Most drivers and teams have commented that the soft tires only have 1 Golden lap before they start to grain. This is in reference to putting down a blazing qualy lap, not a race lap.

By Massa pace he even confirms that the soft tires are good for pretty much any stint. He did his fastest lap at the end of his longest stint, which was incidentally on soft tires.

[Garry Walker]

I find your first comment funny, cause all your posts say the exact opposite. However, on your 2nd comment: you count wintertesting a bigger proof of speed than the race on Sunday?

Did you see the race? Did you see the lap times? Are you blind? Have you run out on medication? (sorry, thats out of line)

Anyway, this is what I firmly believe. Racers show their real speed in races. Kimi crushed everyone on Sunday, including Massa. Yes he was on different strategy, yes he had problems in quali, yes blahblahblah. Its this kind of bs that is really annoying. If KR is beaten I will accept that. I wish that applied to all forum members.

But it doesnt. There are still people who think that JPM was faster than Kimi. There are probably people who think DC was faster than Kimi. And there are people who will think FM is faster than Kimi no matter what. No evidence will ever be strong enough. I find that both sad and amusing.

Yeah, its irrelevant Massa was on a 1 stopper with soft tyres and started from last, sure sure.

[leopard]

Really? Can can you explaine how a driver can brake a gearbox in todays F1.

might break ...

[leopard]

I don't know about McLaren but J Todt said that Felipe had an electrical (or electronic don't remember it exactly) problem with his gearbox, so I doubt it was because he was aggressive.
Right, being agressive and drive the car trough the wrong lane is one of reasons that electronic device problem

[ioan]

Right, being agressive and drive the car trough the wrong lane is one of reasons that electronic device problem

Cause he shook up the electrons in the wires and they forgot the way they should be transmitting the electricity!

[Dzeidzei]

[quote="Garry Walker":7rho6f8e]

Yeah, its irrelevant Massa was on a 1 stopper with soft tyres and started from last, sure sure.[/quote:7rho6f8e]

No, its not irrelevant Garry. But he should have been able to get past those Hondas. He´s performance was okay, but nothing to hype about.

Despite being on a 1 stopper he was light on fuel at the end of his 1st stint and at the end of the race (on medium tyres) and he still was waaaayyyy of Kimis pace. These are the facts. Get over it, Massa has another chance to proove his pace in just over 2 weeks.

And then again 2 weeks after that. And again in Europe. He will have plenty of chances.

[Dzeidzei]

Cause he shook up the electrons in the wires and they forgot the way they should be transmitting the electricity!

This sounds like a good joke, but since its you, I have to ask: you are joking, are you?

[ioan]

This sounds like a good joke, but since its you, I have to ask: you are joking, are you?

Yep, I just forgot to ad a smiley! ;)

[ioan]

But he should have been able to get past those Hondas. He´s performance was okay, but nothing to hype about.


I would have loved him to be more aggressive but it was to early in the race to make risky moves.

[leopard]

Cause he shook up the electrons in the wires and they forgot the way they should be transmitting the electricity!

logical reasoning :)

well, it isn't only us here get impressed upon Massa, a substantial poll out there said he is the most favorite driver challenge the title on top of Kimi and Alonso, how do you see this fact?

[Tomi]

might break ...

Sure if the driver use a sledge, but not with style of driving.

[leopard]

Sure if the driver use a sledge, but not with style of driving.
ok, agree :)

[jens]

Talking about Sepang, then there is no reason to underestimate Felipe.

In 2002 he scored his first point in F1 by finishing 6th.
In 2004 he managed to finish 8th and clearly beat Fisichella in spite of several offs (one of the few occasions, when Felipe was better of the Sauber duo!).
In 2006 he managed to beat Michael in spite of starting from 22nd on the grid.

Sepang seems to be one of the most suitable circuits for Felipe, so I'd expect him to at least match Kimi, if not even outdrive him.

[jjanicke]

No, its not irrelevant Garry. But he should have been able to get past those Hondas. He´s performance was okay, but nothing to hype about.

Despite being on a 1 stopper he was light on fuel at the end of his 1st stint and at the end of the race (on medium tyres) and he still was waaaayyyy of Kimis pace. These are the facts. Get over it, Massa has another chance to proove his pace in just over 2 weeks.

And then again 2 weeks after that. And again in Europe. He will have plenty of chances.


.... and then again 1 week after that. ;) (not 2)

[Garry Walker]

No, its not irrelevant Garry. But he should have been able to get past those Hondas. He´s performance was okay, but nothing to hype about.

Despite being on a 1 stopper he was light on fuel at the end of his 1st stint and at the end of the race (on medium tyres) and he still was waaaayyyy of Kimis pace.

soft tyres at the end of the first stint were already very used up, so he was at a great disadvantage. In the end of the race when he had harder tyres, he was stuck behind Fisi so couldnt push to the max.

[Dzeidzei]

[quote="Garry Walker":348k7khc]

soft tyres at the end of the first stint were already very used up, so he was at a great disadvantage. In the end of the race when he had harder tyres, he was stuck behind Fisi so couldnt push to the max.[/quote:348k7khc]

Youre right. Its not fair to compare these two guys. Kimi was not pushing at all, so his tyres were in excellent shape. Of course its very easy to do quick laps in that situation.

Actually he should have been able to run a lot faster during most of the race, but he did ease up on his pace and save the engine and tyres. Its not fair.

:)

[jjanicke]

Youre right. Its not fair to compare these two guys. Kimi was not pushing at all, so his tyres were in excellent shape. Of course its very easy to do quick laps in that situation.

Actually he should have been able to run a lot faster during most of the race, but he did ease up on his pace and save the engine and tyres. Its not fair.

:)

:up:

Seems to me we have one driver who allegedly destroys tires, and one driver who is so gentle on them he doesn't even have to push to win.

[PSfan]

:up:

Seems to me we have one driver who allegedly destroys tires, and one driver who is so gentle on them he doesn't even have to push to win.

Put Kimi on a one stop and see how nice his softer tires look after putting them through a 1/2 race distance and then we'll be able to compare

[jjanicke]

Put Kimi on a one stop and see how nice his softer tires look after putting them through a 1/2 race distance and then we'll be able to compare

He's done it many times before, and I don't recall tires every becoming an issue!

[Tazio]

In my mind it’s not so important to know who is quicker of them (we have to wait and see), because both drivers are very good. According to JT the team has not any first driver at the moment and that is the most important. It was a long time a go it was like that at Ferrari, so let’s hope that will be a normal situation in the future. I think both drivers can win races and team has a big chance to be the best team in 2007 season. In my mind it’s not good idea to go on with that old “Ferrari system” with first and second driver. What’s needed is teamwork and free competing between drivers however as far as they have own chance to win DWC title and I’m sure when one of them realise that his chances for the year are gone, then he will help his team mate, but it should be very bad for the team to try to make one of them to first and more important for the team. Massa is “old” in the team and loyal against the Ferrari and Kimi is NOT a second driver, (the idea is quite alien to him) I think he can help Massa temporary if he realise that his own chances are gone but not before (and I’m sure every one at Ferrari knows that). So imo is the most important thing just now team work, nothing more. :)
I thought KR, and FM both drove very calculated races. Drawing any competitive conclusions between the two is a little premature. With the very real prospect of KR having to change engines we may not see them go head to head in Malaysia. I am interested to see if Kimi uses the same strategy as FM If he does change engines! Or in true Kimi style go hard from the start on a two stop strategy. Of course all of this is mute if he doesn,t have to change engines

[jas123f1]

I thought KR, and FM both drove very calculated races. Drawing any competitive conclusions between the two is a little premature. With the very real prospect of KR having to change engines we may not see them go head to head in Malaysia. I am interested to see if Kimi uses the same strategy as FM If he does change engines! Or in true Kimi style go hard from the start on a two stop strategy. Of course all of this is mute if he doesn,t have to change engines

That’s something I had in my mind too. How good is Ferrari Engines?

But I don’t think Kimi will need to changes engine in Sepang, because I think he had a comparative smooth and easy race in Melbourne and was able to save engine at least on the second half of it. But if he is forced to do it, I think he will however be fighting of the podium places; so it will be a full speed from start to end - if I know him right. :) And if he doesn’t make any bigger mistakes, he really has a realistic chance to the podium. And however it will be easier for him to be awake (in Melbourne he almost made a mistake, because his radio didn’t work and he had no one to speak with and keep him awake). :) And of course I hope the engine will be ok during the whole race but as usually, it is a long race and one can never know.

According to JT it’s not even time to bring up for discussion, that one of the drivers should be regarded as a “first one”. And that’s how I like it – at least at the present time. One can only hope that the drivers have a good time together and work hard for the teams’ best in their minds.

[Tazio]

That’s something I had in my mind too. How good is Ferrari Engines?

But I don’t think Kimi will need to changes engine in Sepang, because I think he had a comparative smooth and easy race in Melbourne and was able to save engine at least on the second half of it.
Looks can be deceiving check this link!
http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070326102335.shtml
Evidently the engine wasn't damaged, and coolant wasn't leaking from the engine! You do have to wonder though. Don't be surprisd if Kimi's engine goes
Kablamo!

[Juppe]

I thought KR, and FM both drove very calculated races. Drawing any competitive conclusions between the two is a little premature. With the very real prospect of KR having to change engines we may not see them go head to head in Malaysia. I am interested to see if Kimi uses the same strategy as FM If he does change engines! Or in true Kimi style go hard from the start on a two stop strategy. Of course all of this is mute if he doesn,t have to change engines

I couldn't agree more!

Even though I am a hardcore fan of Kimi, I will not make any further assumptions of their relative performances based on the first race. I think Kimi was impressive and Massa drove a solid race, but I didn't see the fireworks in his driving. However, that has happened to Kimi as well every now and then - so one race really don't count all that much.

Although I hope that Kimi's engine won't need changing - wouldn't it be a treat though? Fisi might not enjoy seeing Kimi in his mirrors during closing laps - it might trigger some memories...

[Juppe]

Looks can be deceiving check this link!
http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070326102335.shtml
Evidently the engine wasn't damaged, and coolant wasn't leaking from the engine! You do have to wonder though. Don't be surprisd if Kimi's engine goes
Kablamo!

Ferrari has had plenty of time to cech the engine for any damage - so they will most certainly change it, if there is any danger of retirement.

They know as well as we here that even with a ten place penalty it is highly possible that Kimi takes a podium - so the point deficit would be less dramatic than in the case of retirement.

[jjanicke]

Kimi, with a new engine, from 11th or 12th on the grid? No problem! The kid rocks, he'll be challenging for the top podium spot, for sure.

[jas123f1]

Looks can be deceiving check this link!
http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070326102335.shtml
Evidently the engine wasn't damaged, and coolant wasn't leaking from the engine! You do have to wonder though. Don't be surprisd if Kimi's engine goes
Kablamo!

Yes - that's bad news, I hope only that team is realistic and don't take too big risk, its better to changes the engine and let Kimi start from 10th or 11th place than retire after half distance.

[Addicted]

If they have to change the engine, KR will give spectators great show as he climbs from 11th place to podium.

[jas123f1]

If they have to change the engine, KR will give spectators great show as he climbs from 11th place to podium.

That’s my expectation too, everything for the sport. :)