Wrc Rally Argentina 2011

[dimviii]

Ogier roll
http://www.wrc.com/video/browse-all/video-argentina-2011-ogier-rolls-on-ss16/?vid=2160

[HarriK]

So you think that Matthew Wilson is pretty fast as he was more than once in the top 5 this year too?

look championship table and remember also that rally was at the beginning also the reliability race...

[BleAivano]

Loeb and ctiroen (against only one manufacturer) is a winning formula, it has been for many years. I'd have loads more respect for him if he left the sport he conquered, and joined F1. But(I think) he was frightened of being beaten. So he stays in a motorsport that he knows he can win.

Loeb was not approved of by the FIA to receive the nessesary superlicense which is required to drive in F1 due to lack of racing experience. see this link:
http://www.totalf1.com/full_story/view/360462/Loeb_gives_up_on_F1_dream/ it has nothing to do with being afraid of loosing.

I also think Loeb wanted to show that he could equally as fast with the new cars as well as with the old ones. And if he would take the title this year too (quite likely) then he would be the last winner
of the old WRC Cars and the first winner with the new 1,6T cars. I think that would be motivation enough for a final season in the WRC before moving on to GT Racing.

[Miika]

If you´d put this kind of Easter eggs on Loeb´s route as well then even he would be stoppable:

http://img.mtv3.fi/mn_kuvat/mtv3/urheilu/ralli/2011/1143571-max555x555.jpg

[uranium]

I have doubts this stone was on the road unintentionally...
Interesting to see same place from the second car onboard...

[Hartusvuori]

Mikko Hirvonen was 0.057s faster than Loeb on Power Stage.

http://200.58.126.155/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/PROVISIONAL-FINAL-CLASSIFICATION-POWER-STAGE.pdf

[dimviii]

You mean that for 6 years somebody put stones on the road except Loeb, in Argentina?
Get real guys....

[uranium]

The stone is real. Next car was Solberg's. I'd like to see stage 13 from Solverg car.

[Hartusvuori]

The stone is real. Next car was Solberg's. I'd like to see stage 13 from Solverg car.

After the impact the stone hardly remained placed in the middle of the road. Back in 2009 at Rally Finland's shakedown Hirvonen rolled a similar sized stone right next to my feet - but he wasn't first on the road. Tough luck for JML.

[Hartusvuori]

MTV3.fi continues on the Citroen's making a shortcut on SS7. Apparently all drivers signed a similar contract before recce that the place would be driven on the right side of the traffic divider, not left. It've been calculated from the in-car's that Citroen's gained some 4 secs by taking the left side.

It sounds rather odd that driver's are making agreements on top of what roadbook says. And if it was meant to be driven from the right side of the divider, why left side wasn't blocked by anything? Safety issue?

[Hartusvuori]

There was no success to Finns at Finish ceremony either: first JML got bit off-track and got stuck on the ramp (http://img.mtv3.fi/mn_kuvat/mtv3/urheilu/ralli/2011/1143556-max555x555.jpg). Then organisers used wrong Finnish flag (one for govermental use etc.) for Hirvonen and on top of it all,the wrong flag was even upside down (http://www.hs.fi/kuvat/iso_webkuva/horizontal/1135266517872.jpeg)!

[Barreis]

Hahah, lowlife.

[AndyRAC]

MTV3.fi continues on the Citroen's making a shortcut on SS7. Apparently all drivers signed a similar contract before recce that the place would be driven on the right side of the traffic divider, not left. It've been calculated from the in-car's that Citroen's gained some 4 secs by taking the left side.

It sounds rather odd that driver's are making agreements on top of what roadbook says. And if it was meant to be driven from the right side of the divider, why left side wasn't blocked by anything? Safety issue?

And what has it got to do with MTV3.fi......??? What team/driver are they representing? Haven't they done something like this before? Extremely small time behaviour.

[Hartusvuori]

And what has it got to do with MTV3.fi......???

Well, as far as I know they have their accrediated journalist present. Between rallies their articles are worthless, but on rallies they might have something to tell the others doesn't. Sorry if it offends you anyway.

[A.F.F.]

Hahah, lowlife.

?

[Barreis]

MTV3.fi

[ARF]

And what has it got to do with MTV3.fi......??? What team/driver are they representing? Haven't they done something like this before? Extremely small time behaviour.
A protest has been made regarding SS7. Take a look at the bottom of the provisional final results sheet. mtv3 just writes the news.

[AndyRAC]

Well, as far as I know they have their accrediated journalist present. Between rallies their articles are worthless, but on rallies they might have something to tell the others doesn't. Sorry if it offends you anyway.

No, it doesn't offend me - it just seems they're the only ones making noises about it.......would they be as concerned if there were no Finns taking part?

[Juha_Koo]

No, it doesn't offend me - it just seems they're the only ones making noises about it.......would they be as concerned if there were no Finns taking part?

Maybe not but I don't really care. Media is a good watch dog. MTV3 was the main reason behind Loeb's penalty back in Sardinia because the ultra-fast tyre change wasn't done by the book and it was MTV3's TV-personel that noticed Elena being without safety belts.

[DonJippo]

No, it doesn't offend me - it just seems they're the only ones making noises about it.......would they be as concerned if there were no Finns taking part?

Don't think they would have a reporter down there if there were no Finns taking part...

[Luis Pacheco]

Then organisers used wrong Finnish flag (one for govermental use etc.) for Hirvonen and on top of it all,the wrong flag was even upside down (http://www.hs.fi/kuvat/iso_webkuva/horizontal/1135266517872.jpeg)!

No dobts, this was the rallye of the flags.
First the Uruguayan flag painted on the roof of the DS3´s and now the Finnish flag on the podium. :)

[Barreis]

Ford should replace this lineup 'cos they cannot win the championship.

[Mirek]

Easy to say that. Now the more difficult question. By who?

[Mirek]

No, it doesn't offend me - it just seems they're the only ones making noises about it.......would they be as concerned if there were no Finns taking part?

Why noise? An official protest is under investigation, so what's wrong with giving info about that?

[bluuford]

And what has it got to do with MTV3.fi......??? What team/driver are they representing? Haven't they done something like this before? Extremely small time behaviour.

Dont underestimate Finnish commentators. They are even used to help FIA : http://200.58.126.155/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/STEWARDS-DECISION-5.pdf

[Juha_Koo]

Somehow I'm very sorry for JM. In Sardinia Miikka's unfortunate mistake cost the most likely win and now in Argentina a technical failure. He sounded really frustrated in Finnish interview. I'm worried that he'll get too "fired up" in the later part of the season and start throwing it to the scenery. He said something like "I'm now totally fed up with these situations. It will change it now."

He has had such a good pace too... Well, this is rallying.

[MJW]

Why noise? An official protest is under investigation, so what's wrong with giving info about that?
Is it still under investigation or are results final?

[Juha_Koo]

Is it still under investigation or are results final?

Still under investigation. Results are conditional.

[tfp]

Loeb was not approved of by the FIA to receive the nessesary superlicense which is required to drive in F1 due to lack of racing experience. see this link:
http://www.totalf1.com/full_story/view/360462/Loeb_gives_up_on_F1_dream/ it has nothing to do with being afraid of loosing.

I also think Loeb wanted to show that he could equally as fast with the new cars as well as with the old ones. And if he would take the title this year too (quite likely) then he would be the last winner
of the old WRC Cars and the first winner with the new 1,6T cars. I think that would be motivation enough for a final season in the WRC before moving on to GT Racing.

Thankyou for the link, made an interesting read. I knew the Fia wouldn't give him a licence, but I dont think there was much stopping him from going out and gaining a licence. The age thing aswel, hes a gymnast for christ sake :D I dont think the age/fitness thing would be a problem for him, I dont think he eats at mcdonalds every night for his tea :p
I would have been really interested to follow him if he made the move, Im sure others would too.

Is there anything happenning with the SS7 shortcut thing?

[tfp]

Ford should replace this lineup 'cos they cannot win the championship.

Maybe not, but who else can keep up with the two sebs?

[Gregor-y]

Malcolm Wilson will eat a Fiesta before he lets Petter drive one, so the answer is no one.

[René]

Rally organisers given fine

The organisers of Rally Argentina have been fined $5,000 for an irregularity in the road book for the event.

The stewards of the event received a protest from the Ford team in relation to a junction towards the end of the El Condor stage. The junction was a traffic roundabout. On the first run at the stage, the organisers had taped one exit of the roundabout forcing the crews to take the legal route around the roundabout. The organisers then removed the tape for the second pass of the stage.

The Citroen drivers took the shorter route while the Fords took the same route as before - at a cost reckoned to be around four seconds. Ford's Mikko Hirvonen ultimately lost the rally to Citroen's Sebastien Loeb by just 2.7s.

The organisers were fined for not communicating a clear instruction under Article 2.1 of the sporting regulations.

Ford's Malcolm Wilson said: "We put this one into the clerk of the course on Saturday morning asking for clarification. We didn't get a satisfactory answer so we then put the request into the stewards to give us a clarification of the situation. We then decided to seek clarification from the stewards.

"The big thing is there's been an advantage gained by the ambiguity in the road book. And we wanted clarification for the future. Everybody knows the rallies have been [decided by] 0.2 of a second. Everybody is investing a lot of money in this championship and we want absolute clarification as to where we are on the regulations."

Wilson said he was happy with the outcome of the stewards' meeting, adding: "We're in this business to win but at the end of the day we want clarification going forward and that's the most important thing to point out.

"We made this request when we were actually leading the rally. It isn't a case we have lost out by two seconds and he gained whatever by taking this route. It's really positive in the sense that now anything that's discussed in the team managers' meeting - there's the evidence. They've been fined for not communicating transparently what was requested."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91890

[Hartusvuori]

Dont underestimate Finnish commentators. They are even used to help FIA : http://200.58.126.155/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/STEWARDS-DECISION-5.pdf

wrc.com says Hanna Lehtinen is stakeholders relations manager at North Sport One, hardly a Finnish journalist. Anyway...

This whole incident goes down to one-to-remember, at least for sorry Finns. First there is a roadbook, then an agreement, a tape, no tape, a cut, no cut, advantage, disadvantage -> fine organanizers!

[N.O.T]

fair decision....once more the argentinian organisers did their best to ruin the event....5000 is very lenient penalty i think though.

[rage82]

Highlights from the final day of rally Argenitina on ESPN UK here mypremium.tv at 11:00 CET

[Barreis]

Easy to say that. Now the more difficult question. By who?

One of them must be the one who beat Loeb and that's P.Solberg. Ideal second was Sordo who's fast on tarmac and ideal driver for manufacturer crown but he's in mini squad. The other one can be Hirvonen. Ideal for second driver (he doesn't deserve seat 'cos he's a payer but anyway).

[Juha_Koo]

Some points from the roundabout-incident:

- On SS4, there was a safety tape in the left lane.
- Before SS7 started, FIA Safety Delegate Jacek Bartos landed with the safety helicopter and removed the safety tape.
- Daniel Elena had not signed the written agreement to pass the roundabout from the right side.

Organisers fined $5000 for non-transparent communication. Citroens...nothing. Hurray.

[Barreis]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91890

[6789]

Congrats to Loeb, if he doesn;t run into problems by Finland then its pretty much championship all gone again for the other guys

[TMorel]

I'm a bit confused as to the timeline for this. Also, at the second pass, what was the running order? Weren't the Citroëns running in front of the Fords? If so, shouldn't Malcolm have had someone at the junction and indicated to their cars what the competition was doing? I just think - like getting Petter/Chris to bump Loebs car in Sweden - that the Citroën guys are a bit quicker on the ball in these iffy situations.

[Barreis]

Congrats to Loeb, if he doesn;t run into problems by Finland then its pretty much championship all gone again for the other guys

Let we all hope he wins in Finland.

[JAM]

Is this true or fake?
http://i54.tinypic.com/20zctuh.jpg

[wildsir]

Organisers fined $5000 for non-transparent communication. Citroens...nothing. Hurray.
Why would you do anything to Citroen? You have just said that Elena did not sign anything, Bartos removed the tape..

[Juha_Koo]

Why would you do anything to Citroen? You have just said that Elena did not sign anything, Bartos removed the tape..

2011 FIA WRC Sporting regulations, 14.2:

"All the crews will receive a road book containing a detailed description of the itinerary. This itinerary and
the road direction diagrams must be followed."

The roadbook indicated the route going as per traffic rules = from the right side. Citroens have difficulty following the rally route... Ogier's TC messup in Mexico, now this. It's very clear in the rules, rally route must be followed. But still, no. No no no.

[Rallyper]

This smells Citroen corruption! Nothing else! :mad:

[wrc1600]

This smells Citroen corruption! Nothing else! :mad:
What we can see is that organizers have done something wrong and been fined not any drivers.

[N.O.T]

it is very very sad that a nation like Finland with an industry of rally champions to act like beaten crippled dogs and ask to take victories not through driving but through shady situations.... Hirvonen would make an ideal paper champion to go on with the tradition but i think Latvala is a true Finnish driver and would never want to win rallies like that.

I do understand that Loeb has caused many phycological problems to blind nationalistic finnish fans....i will e-mail him and ask him to donate a sum of his fortune to the national finnish health care system in order to make a centre for the phycologically unstable rally fans who need treatment.

As for the situation itself the fact that Bartoz himself removed the tape shows that the only one to blame were the incompetent argentinian organisers and they got what they deserved.

[DonJippo]

What we can see is that organizers have done something wrong and been fined not any drivers.

What wrong has organizers done in this case?

[6789]

Let we all hope he wins in Finland.

Ogier will be a bigger chance in Finland than Loeb I think.

Why is there so much bs with Citroën and rules, I guess they work rightto the limit hey

[wrc1600]

What wrong has organizers done in this case?
I do not know but official memo says they have changed itinerary.

[wildsir]

This smells Citroen corruption! Nothing else! :mad: yeah, like the minute penalty Loeb got.

[jonas_mcrae]

No, its not corruption, but Citroen Team do know how to "bend" the rules in its favor. there is someone inside Citroen that knows the rule book by heart and when one of these situations arises (like in sweden, if you watch the video of when petter pushed Loeb, someone from the team called Elena and said it was ok to do it, he then rushed to tell petter and problem solved), they take advantage of it, whilst ford may not have such an expert, that is why they normally end up loosing out on those opportunities.

Also I dont think its the organiser's fault, they marked the road with tape as it was indicated in the roadbook and THEN the FIA delegate got down from the helicopter to remove it. I remember earlier this year in rally mexico something simmilar happened, I was close to a left hand hairpin and just before the start of the stage the FIA delegate got down from the helicopter, removed all the photographers from the hairpin and then removed all the red tape inside the hairpin. This way competitors could cut much more and exit the corner faster. (not all the drivers did it as I guess some had "dont cut" in their notes...) I would blame the FIA delegate (dont know if it was the same guy this time).

I understand it is their job the make stages safe, but they can be very very nasty to everyone involved and they feel like gods around the stages, decendig from the skies and doing whatever they want.

[rp]

Fair play FIA and Citröen! Once again not a big surprise...

When VW is involved in the WRC there is now way that they are going to accept this kind of situation.

Ford is not able to handle these things, because their resources are so limited.

[bluuford]

Ironically, last time similar thing happened with current VW official driver, He got 5 minutes penalty for not following the roadbook. This time there were tapes present and he did loose time, because he drove slowly back to the SS road.
Ironically, he still won the rally in PWRC.

PS! Story is about our good friend Nasser and Acropolis rally if you didn't know :-)

[N.O.T]

what limited resources have to do with organisational errors ???

Also since Mr Bartoz was the man to remove the tape...that shows that it was clearly in the wrong place thus what the citroen drivers did was not wrong.

[N.O.T]

PS! Story is about our good friend Nasser and Acropolis rally if you didn't know :-)

Nasser is just a disgrace to the sport....how many times has he been caught with illegal cars ???

[bluuford]

Nasser is just a disgrace to the sport....how many times has he been caught with illegal cars ???
I think that the number is two. But he has this funny DSQ-s from Dakar and this 5 minutes penalty in Greece. So, currently at least 4 times he has broken the rules and got the penalty.

I just watched the stage times and this questionable SS. Jari would have won that stage as well (he was only 2 sec slower than Loeb on that one and waaayyy ahead of the others). So, that means he and Loeb basically both won 6 stages. Like Subaru boss told about McRae "Sooner or later there will be one rally distance between incidents." I hope it happens sooner with Jari Matti, it is just sad to watch his points tally in the season table. He is much better than the numbers tell.

[Mirek]

Also since Mr Bartoz was the man to remove the tape...that shows that it was clearly in the wrong place thus what the citroen drivers did was not wrong.

Absolutely not. That shows nothing. If You want to make strong statements, please give us exact notes from road book. What safety delegate did on place has nothing to do with the course marked in road book.

[donlorean]

http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/ralli/uutiset.shtml/2011/05/1337942/tuomisen-analyysi-tassa-kohuttu-tiekirjan-piirros

Here is picture of that roadbook. Without any questions all Citroens are not followed the road that was draw in that book... Last box(18) of that page...

[tolis]

I think that the number is two. But he has this funny DSQ-s from Dakar and this 5 minutes penalty in Greece. So, currently at least 4 times he has broken the rules and got the penalty.
Don't forget Acropolis 2009

[Mirek]

http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/ralli/uutiset.shtml/2011/05/1337942/tuomisen-analyysi-tassa-kohuttu-tiekirjan-piirros

Here is picture of that roadbook. Without any questions all Citroens are not followed the road that was draw in that book... Last box(18) of that page...

Thank You, that's clear.

[wrc1600]

Guys it is all over, Wilson accepted the outcome of investigation as far as we know. If there would be any doubts Ford did not let go.

[OldF]

I believe that the Citroen drivers knew that they could take the shortcut.

http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/ralli/uutiset.shtml/2011/05/1337372/loebin-voitto-uhattuna---tuomaristo-tutkii-oikaisuja

Hope the video works outside Finland.

[ZequeArgentina]

Is that road book from this year?
The picture of the roadbook I have seen is different,

It is this one:
http://www.rallynoticias.com/Noticias/ABM/IMAGES/FOTOS/new_big_4058.jpg

If the last one is the one actually in the road book, Citroen is correct, as both ways on the roundabout are marked in the roundabout, and organizers were wrong in taping the "shorter and contrary to usual road sense".

If Bartoz then removed the tape, is because he must have seen taping blocking the road indicated in the road book, and he would have een right.

I understand that both the FIA and Citroen were right, the problem was in th road book.
It seems that organizers tried to correct the error thorugh that agreement (I only have this forum information of Elena not signing a gentlemen agreement).

But if the finish media photo is the corrext one, therefore, Citroen and the FIA are wrong, roads was clearly marked down.
I will try to confirm with a driver which was actually the road book.

[Mirek]

Interesting. So which picture is right? :)

[GigiGalliNo1]

Just don't mention the war

[wrc1600]

I believe that the Citroen drivers knew that they could take the shortcut.

http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/ralli/uutiset.shtml/2011/05/1337372/loebin-voitto-uhattuna---tuomaristo-tutkii-oikaisuja

Hope the video works outside Finland.
Doesn't work

[donlorean]

To ZegueArgentina:

I think that it is becauce writer(Tomi Tuominen ex-Gardemeister co-driver) told earlier that he´s going to ask that page from Anttila or Lehtinen.

[Juha_Koo]

What the hell is going on?

Tuominen has aqcuired that page from Lehtinen or Anttila, so it is valid. I actually asked him (because he's FCDA president) to scan that page so general public could see the problematic box 18. Question now is... Have the organisers made such a big mistake, that there could be two different versions? Is either version tampered - those // -symbols added or deleted?

Now this is getting interesting. :)

[ARF]

The finnish version is not correct, because the two strike-throughs are manmade, not printed.

[dimviii]

nice video
http://www.rallybuzz.com/wrc-rally-argentina-2011-video-highlights/

[N.O.T]

in any case....what did the citroen do wrong ???

Did they went in the wrong way while the road book said they couldn't ??? then why mr Bartoz removed the tape ??

If we had 2 different road books then the organisers are at fault and they god penalised....now did they give the shortcut roadbooks to citroen while they didn't gave anything at ford ??? then why did they give that 1 min penalty at Loeb ?? and that stone in Latvalas way is very suspicious also since its in the middle of the road.....hmmmmm

and finally a pledge to the finnish media and fans...please do not cry too much we already going to drown in 2345 b.c from the melting of the icebergs so we cannot afford any rise of the seas from your tears...

[Allyc85]

Let we all hope he wins in Finland.

Bugger off!

Why?

[kobefly]

Here is a video of the helicopter and then Citroen/Ford comparision (http://www.cadena3.com/contenido/2011/05/30/77806.asp)

[N.O.T]

thats more than 2 seconds gained i think.....considering the momentum the citroens gained from the shortcut.

Solberg also followed the shortcut.

[dimviii]

way more than 2 seconds...

[Juha_Koo]

Further clarification for the road book anomaly.

In the original road book, there are no strikethroughs "//" on page 55, box 18.

But there's been an official bulletin, which all competitors have received. It had addendum which was new roadbook page 55 - surprise surprise - with strikethroughs in the box 18. :)

[N.O.T]

then why the ford drivers didn't do it ?

[ARF]

Further clarification for the road book anomaly.

In the original road book, there are no strikethroughs "//" on page 55, box 18.

But there's been an official bulletin, which all competitors have received. It had addendum which was new roadbook page 55 - surprise surprise - with strikethroughs in the box 18. :)

There was no bulletin for that and that was also the main reason why the organizer was penalized.
Usually in such junctions, the direction to be followed is shown with a bold line. In this the route was unclear and both ways were legal.
Perhaps that is why competitors made some gentlemen's agreement, that only some choose to follow.

[pucky54]

then why the ford drivers didn't do it ?


May be because they sticked to the rule that says, you have to follow the roadbook?

[Juha_Koo]

There was no bulletin for that and that was also the main reason why the organizer was penalized.

No. There was a bulletin. The picture in MTV3's page is not a picture about a roadbook, but a picture about the addendum of the bulletin. Also here: http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/246692_10150194588446677_289210951676_7640892_2887 843_n.jpg

[ARF]

All the official bulletins are also on the Rally Argentina website and there's nothing for that junction.

[jonas_mcrae]

So just going back a little bit:

First, the roadbook was wrong, so organizers sent the bulletin and Then put some tape blocking the place, this stays like that for the first run, and on the second run Mr Bartoz, looking at the original roadbook (I guess), gets off the chopper and removes the tape. Before the second run the Citroens agree to go the short way as shown (or at least allowed) in the original roadbook and without the tape they run free through that place, the fords follow the advice of the bulletin and go the long way, loose a few seconds, and later on Mikko looses the rally because of that. right ot wrong?

So it was a BIG missunderstanding?? so big even the FIA delegate got confused? and factory drivers did different things??

[N.O.T]

May be because they sticked to the rule that says, you have to follow the roadbook?

but there was a bulletin.....and thats why bartoz removed the tape.

[jonas_mcrae]

Damn Im confused...

[Bobcat]

http://twitter.com/#!/WRCgerardquinn/status/75268877155704832
Gerard Quinn: "@almcmotorclub you can see the controversial roundabout at the start of our rally review at http://bit.ly/ke9UGC"

[Barreis]

Maybe it'all about winners are winners and loosers are loosers. M.Wilson is good businessman but stupid as a sport boss leaded by the money not success.

[sindroms]

Further clarification for the road book anomaly.

In the original road book, there are no strikethroughs "//" on page 55, box 18.

But there's been an official bulletin, which all competitors have received. It had addendum which was new roadbook page 55 - surprise surprise - with strikethroughs in the box 18. :)

The part of original roadbook is shown in Martin Holmes article in http://mag.gpweek.com/ page 43, too.

[JAM]

This is a stupid situation that only happened because the FIA delegate decided to do something, and is stupid because FIA penalized... the organizers!

On the first run there were no problems, so why to change to the second run.

Aparently, the roadbook "mistake" was under control until the FIA delegate put the hands on the situation.

And ok, Citroen won the rally here. Not a honest win IMO.

[wrc1600]

Citroen didn't do anything wrong

[bluuford]

In such cases rally organizers should have reacted quickly. There was only one good solution. neutralize the results of that stage. But they missed their time slot and that caused all the trouble:-)

[Rallyper]

It´s obvious - Citroen hired Mr Bartoz to change the way they should drive. And that legitimized the whole thing. Only though Ford didnt know...?

[N.O.T]

you actually accuse a safety official who has this job for more than 15 years.... of bribery ????? LOL

[tfp]

you actually accuse a safety official who has this job for more than 15 years.... of bribery ????? LOL

I think he was joking...

[tfp]

I dont believe citroen did anything wrong here, if only the fords had cut the same corner it would have been fair, in a wierd sort of way...

[wildsir]

My guess is that simply Citroen had a man at this juntion. He seen the tape being taken down, and relyed the information to the team.

I think Ford should be more concerned how Loeb took 1min out of their no.1 driver, in 2 days.

[Blitzerflitzer]

then why the ford drivers didn't do it ?

Question 1: Are in Argentina Gravel Cars?
Question 2: When yes, did Citroen have the luck and there Gravel Car was at that roundabout at the right time and notice the change?

[Bobcat]

Maybe it'all about winners are winners and loosers are loosers. M.Wilson is good businessman but stupid as a sport boss leaded by the money not success.

Sorry boys, this is Ford's money, badge and goodwill.... Mr. Wilson is only a very, very good businessman, he's just looking for a profit from business activities in M-Sport. The show is about the Ford's boss Gerard Quinn who spends time checking and supervising all Ford's European pretty budgets for winning success! Or not? :confused:

[AndyRAC]

Sorry boys, this is Ford's money, badge and goodwill.... Mr. Wilson is only a very, very good businessman, he's just looking for a profit from business activities in M-Sport. The show is about the Ford's boss Gerard Quinn who spends time checking and supervising all Ford's European petty budgets for winning success! Or not? :confused:

If you want to win in Motorsport, you have to spend. And it’s only going to get harder for Ford with VW coming in with a seemingly mega budget. From what we’ve all read, if it wasn’t for AbuDhabi and other sponsors, plus customer cars, Ford would struggle to be in the WRC. Maybe Ford need to dig into their pockets a bit more.

[Rallyper]

The outcome of a rally shouldnt depend on whether being at a place or not. Everything should be in the roadbook and nothing could be changed between two legs/passings at the same spot. That´s what Mr Bartoz interferred in the way the rally would have ended.

Spend how much money you want and put a teammember in every corner. Is that what you guys mean when comparing budgets and smartness between Ford and Citroen?

[bowler]

Question 1: Are in Argentina Gravel Cars?
Question 2: When yes, did Citroen have the luck and there Gravel Car was at that roundabout at the right time and notice the change?

no gravel cars on gravel rallies now

[wildsir]

The outcome of a rally shouldnt depend on whether being at a place or not. Everything should be in the roadbook and nothing could be changed between two legs/passings at the same spot. That´s what Mr Bartoz interferred in the way the rally would have ended.

Spend how much money you want and put a teammember in every corner. Is that what you guys mean when comparing budgets and smartness between Ford and Citroen?
No, just the junctions where there is a concern about. That seems logical.

[Viking]

It might just be me.. But I cant see the "4 second gain" anywhere in the splits, maybe 1 or 2sec..

World Rally Championship - Results - Rally Argentina (http://www.wrc.com/results/2011/rally-argentina/split-times/?stageno=7)

[N.O.T]

it is you...its way more that 4 seconds

[Viking]

it is you...its way more that 4 seconds

So where (what splits)? towards the end??

[Juha_Koo]

More information from Tuominen: Tuomisen analyysi: Uusi käänne tiekirjasotkussa! - MTV3.fi - Urheilu - Ralli - Uutiset (http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/ralli/uutiset.shtml/2011/05/1338346/tuomisen-analyysi-uusi-kaanne-tiekirjasotkussa)

My translation concerning the main points:

The junction was discussed prior to the start at the Team Manager's meeting. In that meeting, the participants of the meeting had made a spoken deal that the specific junction (page 55, box 18) could be driven in any fashion the drivers would like to. Basically this meant the shorter route. When the mess came up, Ford announced that nothing like that had been discussed.

Unfortunately, the deal was never put on paper (=released as an official bulletin). That's why it can't be found from the official notice board. This leaves an interesting question: what and whose bulletin was the paper (=new page 55, the one with "//") which was distributed to competitors prior to recce? It was not an official document issued by the stewards. Where did it came from?

It's like a novel. "Sherlock Holmes: The Argentine roundabout" :D

[bluuford]

So where (what splits)? towards the end??
World Rally Championship - Results - Rally Argentina (http://www.wrc.com/results/2011/rally-argentina/split-times/?stageno=7)
It is between split 6 and split 7.
Jari Matti -1.9 up on loeb next split +0.8 down and at Finish -2 sec
Jari-matti -6.5 on Ogier and next split -5.5 up on Ogier and finally -6.7 up on Ogier
So, compared to Ogier he gained approximately 2.5 sec in two and half minutes but there he lost approximately 1 sec, that is around 3.5 sec
Compare Mikko and Ogier
Mikko was approximately sec or 2 faster than Ogier in Split 6 and final sections but was 5.2 sec slower than Ogier on split 7.
Compare Mikko and Loeb
he had approximately the same speed in split3, 4, 5, 6 (lost only 0.4 sec) and in final split he was 5.5 sec slower than Loeb. and only 1.8 sec slower than Loeb on final section. So, it is just around 4 sec.

[Barreis]

The only important thing is that Loeb won.

[Sardalense]

Picture taken from Google Earth of the famous "roundabout":

http://s4.postimage.org/8rkqry5bf/Rotunda.jpg

[Gregor-y]

Sounds like an issue with the crew setting up tape or the book they used. It should have been caught by an advance car, steward or one or the zero cars before the first run unless they all had the wrong book as well. For someone to have to land a helicopter between stages to address the problem is a bit silly. Still, it's not as bad as earlier years where spectators would block shortcuts with no warning.

[Blitzerflitzer]

no gravel cars on gravel rallies now

Thanks, my mistake :)

[Bobcat]

(Français) Au rond-point, ça tourne pas rond | Best of Rally Live (http://www.best-of-rallylive.com/en/2011/05/30/how-to-take-or-not-to-take-a-roundabout%E2%80%A6rne-pas-rond/)

"This hasn’t been a straightforward end to the 2011 Rally Argentina. Following a change at the top of the order on the ultimate stage, then rumours of Ogier’s Citroën receiving a penalty because its rear wing wasn’t fitted for the podium ceremony (finally no action was taken), news soon filtered through that Ford had lodged a protest."

Is this rally sponsored by Citroen, right? :rolleyes: Is this good for the new WRC?

[N.O.T]

what is your opinion about the main sponsor of acropolis rally being the BP ultimate ??? who was also the main sponsor of the Ford team ??

[J4MIE]

Well apart from all this penalties stuff, watching the coverage of the rally I thought it looked an excellent event. Nice stages, plenty of action, crowds of spectators and lots of good attacking driving :up: Hopefully I'll get there in the next few years....

[J.Lindstroem]

The only important thing is that Loeb won.

So how someone won is never important?

Spare us your comments, please.

[wrc1600]

So how someone won is never important?

Spare us your comments, please.
I think that is little bit to harsh, Loeb got 1 minute penalty and has not cheat to win the rally. Organizers or FIA or whoever else involved has made mistake and was penalized. Simple as that.

[bluuford]

(Français) Au rond-point, ça tourne pas rond | Best of Rally Live (http://www.best-of-rallylive.com/en/2011/05/30/how-to-take-or-not-to-take-a-roundabout%E2%80%A6rne-pas-rond/)

"This hasn’t been a straightforward end to the 2011 Rally Argentina. Following a change at the top of the order on the ultimate stage, then rumours of Ogier’s Citroën receiving a penalty because its rear wing wasn’t fitted for the podium ceremony (finally no action was taken), news soon filtered through that Ford had lodged a protest."

Is this rally sponsored by Citroen, right? :rolleyes: Is this good for the new WRC?

Official after the last service reported the issue with Ogier car. So, the case was discussed during the stewards meeting.
Citroen officials explained that Ogiers car was badly damaged and fitting the aerodynamics was not safe and Ogier drove from service to podium without rear aero package.
So, they (stewards) decided to close the case.

Normally such cars will not be allowed to continue or get some kind of penalty (Mostly DNF). Everybody who has done some rallying know that when they leave from the service even without rear spoiler, then they will be excluded.. most probably. I think Iskald can tell about his experience in Rally Norway and how the reused one rear spoiler several times just for entering and leaving the service:-P You can come into the service with all parts hanging off, but you have to leave with normal looking car.

So, the only reason might be related to the fact that it was only last drive from service to podium. But I must admit that stewards are always more kind to factory cars than they are to privateers. Which is not good.

[Solberg]

guys, 3 videos of Rally Argentina!!! enjoy ;)

VIDEOS RALLY ARGENTINA 2011 (http://www.amigosporelrally.com.ar/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1227:videos-rally-argentina-2011&catid=63:video-wrc&Itemid=91)

[tfp]

(Français) Au rond-point, ça tourne pas rond | Best of Rally Live (http://www.best-of-rallylive.com/en/2011/05/30/how-to-take-or-not-to-take-a-roundabout%E2%80%A6rne-pas-rond/)

"This hasn’t been a straightforward end to the 2011 Rally Argentina. Following a change at the top of the order on the ultimate stage, then rumours of Ogier’s Citroën receiving a penalty because its rear wing wasn’t fitted for the podium ceremony (finally no action was taken), news soon filtered through that Ford had lodged a protest."

Is this rally sponsored by Citroen, right? :rolleyes: Is this good for the new WRC?

Is this matter case closed? Or still ongoing?

[Hartusvuori]

Document on the Ogier case:

http://200.58.126.155/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/STEWARDS-DECISION-7.pdf

[cosmicpanda]

WRC.com being stupid again:

"Like the absolute professional that he also is, Malcolm Wilson refuses to apportion blame to Latvala for the suspension breakage that cost him the rally win, but the truth is that these things don’t tend to break on their own."

I think our friend Antony would disagree. But so does the person they quote as evidence:

"As one senior engineer explained: 'You can easily build a car to resist most types of impact. But the problem is that this inevitably costs weight, which is why Safari cars are always so heavy, for example. So it’s a trade-off: if the driver wants a car that is light enough to be competitive, he will have to accept that there are some things he can’t hit.

“But equally, teams sometimes have to accept that they have made their car too vulnerable in the pursuit of performance. It’s a question of where you draw the line - and what makes that judgment more complicated is the fact that no two impacts are ever quite the same. An impact that a component might comfortably absorb in one direction could break it in a slightly different direction.”

Conclusion: the only thing you can practically do is design a car to resist the most common types of impact and tell your driver to avoid hitting anything, something that Loeb obviously remembered when he saw that bull all those years ago. And he obviously remembered it again this year, as his Citroen was bomb proof despite the severity of some of the stages.'

So, why exactly is it Latvala's fault, again? What if Ford simply designed their car badly - it wouldn't seem to be the first time! Also, why does the person they quote talk about Safari cars as if they are still made? How old is the quote? Silly wrc.com.

[Juha_Koo]

WRC.com being stupid again:

"Like the absolute professional that he also is, Malcolm Wilson refuses to apportion blame to Latvala for the suspension breakage that cost him the rally win, but the truth is that these things don’t tend to break on their own."


Maybe you can tell me how to make suspension link so strong that it survives the impact with a big rock at 120+ kph. :)

[tfp]

Maybe you can tell me how to make suspension link so strong that it survives the impact with a big rock at 120+ kph. :)

Mystical forces:-) I guess it doesn't matter how strong you make a car or what you make it out of, if you hit something hard enough, its going to break.

[Rallyper]

Sometimes you have time to avoid a big stone. Sometimes you dont. Obviousily JML hadnt time to avoid impact. The result was crusual to him of course.

Was the stone still there on the road waiting for the cars to come?

[tfp]

Is this case ongoing? Or has it been closed? The roundabout thing, I mean.

[Gard]

World Rally Championship - Results - Rally Argentina (http://www.wrc.com/results/2011/rally-argentina/split-times/?stageno=7)
It is between split 6 and split 7.
Jari Matti -1.9 up on loeb next split +0.8 down and at Finish -2 sec
Jari-matti -6.5 on Ogier and next split -5.5 up on Ogier and finally -6.7 up on Ogier
So, compared to Ogier he gained approximately 2.5 sec in two and half minutes but there he lost approximately 1 sec, that is around 3.5 sec
Compare Mikko and Ogier
Mikko was approximately sec or 2 faster than Ogier in Split 6 and final sections but was 5.2 sec slower than Ogier on split 7.
Compare Mikko and Loeb
he had approximately the same speed in split3, 4, 5, 6 (lost only 0.4 sec) and in final split he was 5.5 sec slower than Loeb. and only 1.8 sec slower than Loeb on final section. So, it is just around 4 sec.

Except for Mikko. Nothing indicates that the citroens gained anything. JM was +2 to Loeb at finish and continued a loosing trend.

[JAM]

Except for Mikko. Nothing indicates that the citroens gained anything. JM was +2 to Loeb at finish and continued a loosing trend.

I look at the video and see Citroen gaining more than 3 seconds cuting off the roundabout.

By other words, its obvious that if Citroen would had gone by the inside of the roundabout (lik Fords) would had made at least 3 seconds more on the stage.

We should look at that place exactly, not the whole stage.

[cosmicpanda]

Maybe you can tell me how to make suspension link so strong that it survives the impact with a big rock at 120+ kph. :)

Well, quite. I'm not sure if you're asking me rhetorically or not...

[bowler]

Is this case ongoing? Or has it been closed? The roundabout thing, I mean.

closed

[MikeD]

I look at the video and see Citroen gaining more than 3 seconds cuting off the roundabout.

By other words, its obvious that if Citroen would had gone by the inside of the roundabout (lik Fords) would had made at least 3 seconds more on the stage.

It's irrelevant because Loeb's 1 minute penalty didn't fit the crime so he still beat Hirvonen by 59 sec. Loeb is clearly the deserved winner! Case closed.

[Rallyper]

It's irrelevant because Loeb's 1 minute penalty didn't fit the crime so he still beat Hirvonen by 59 sec. Loeb is clearly the deserved winner! Case closed.

That´s simplifying the case very much. The one minute penalty was undoubtable and is added to the times on stages. Loeb was in the margin of being one or two depending on the roundabout passing. For me Mikko is moral winner.

[darkstar]

here´s a video of that roundabout:Organización admite que hubo desprolijidades, pero dice que Sebastian Loeb ganó bien (http://www.cadena3.com/contenido/2011/05/30/77806.asp)

you can clearely see that the citroens gained a pretty big advantage by shortcutting that roundabout.

once again citroen has more luck then what is normal. instead of getting a penalty, the argentina rallye organisators get a penatly and need to pay 5000€.

same in sweden, where loeb´s gear got stuck or whatever and solberg pushed the car away. or ogier leaving the road as shown in the roadbook by turning into sarvice to early. how can they always get away with stuff like that? especially the thing in sweden...

[Bobcat]

+1

[JAM]

It's irrelevant because Loeb's 1 minute penalty didn't fit the crime so he still beat Hirvonen by 59 sec. Loeb is clearly the deserved winner! Case closed.

Irrelevant is your point of view about the Loeb's penalty.

By your pont of view the winner should be Ogier. Subtracting mistakes...

[wwbroe]

That´s simplifying the case very much. The one minute penalty was undoubtable and is added to the times on stages. Loeb was in the margin of being one or two depending on the roundabout passing. For me Mikko is moral winner.

Maybe he should show sometimes on the stages that he deserves to be a winner, he could do that by setting some besttimes.....

[Rallyper]

Maybe he should show sometimes on the stages that he deserves to be a winner, he could do that by setting some besttimes.....

We turn your say the other way around and let´s say Citroen show they win without cheating.

[MikeD]

We turn your say the other way around and let´s say Citroen show they win without cheating.

Pffff!

Quite an impressive cheating rate they have at Citroën. 6 manu titles and 7 driver's titles by cheating ... wow! ... They have fooled all of us, but a good thing you made us aware of all their cheating :rolleyes:

Maybe Ford should just change their approch to the WRC. It's pathetic the lack of titles despite their long involvement in the sport. The managament is not good enough. The reliability is not good enough. Their drivers aren't fast enough. That's why they keep losing and then you can all stand on the side shouting "cheaters" at their opponents instead of focusing on where the issue of the lack of results really are!

[ZequeArgentina]

My understanding of th Roundabout issue is that:
1- Organizers did the roadbook, picturing both ways of the roundabout as valid.
2- Manufacturers teams (probably Ford) took this issue at a meeting prior to the stage
3- There was a propossal to agree that everyone was to take the outside way
4- Citroen did not agree (therefore, agreement is not valid)
5- First pass, there was a tape in the roundabout
6- This tape is wrongly placed, as the roadbook allow drivers to use this path, even if later the intention was to forbid it (it was just and intention, no real official modification of the route)
7- Local news say it was Borrione (safety agent from local organizer), and not Bartoz, who take the tape out. Which is of no importance,
8- Citroens took an acepted way, as well as Fords
9- No reason for penalizing any driver, as nobody run through a route ot of place
10- Organzers hadfautl in the confussion, its isright to penalize them


Imagine you are a driver who had your notes based on the shorter way, why would you accept a forbid of that option, andrun without noteson that roundabout, while your rivals are in the opposite case.
No way!

[Oppositelock]

@ ZequeArgentina

There is nothing to add, if you look only at the facts, which is exactly what the stewards had to do.

On the other hand this incidents shows perfectly who is the predator and who is the prey inside WRC. You don't win championships by being the nice guy. Unfortunately, one might add

[N.O.T]

LOL...keep going...this is getting really funny....

[GigiGalliNo1]

I say it's the stones fault. Fine the stone on the road.

[tfp]

Pffff!

Quite an impressive cheating rate they have at Citroën. 6 manu titles and 7 driver's titles by cheating ... wow! ... They have fooled all of us, but a good thing you made us aware of all their cheating :rolleyes:

Maybe Ford should just change their approch to the WRC. It's pathetic the lack of titles despite their long involvement in the sport. The managament is not good enough. The reliability is not good enough. Their drivers aren't fast enough. That's why they keep losing and then you can all stand on the side shouting "cheaters" at their opponents instead of focusing on where the issue of the lack of results really are!

I wouldnt say cheating, I would say its more down to PSA pouring insane amounts of money at their projects.

[tfp]

closed

THANKYOU:-) Thats all I wanted to know:-)
Does anyone have the footage of Petter swearing wildly at the cameras after his steering pump gave up? Its really funny!

[Bobcat]

I wouldnt say cheating, I would say its more down to PSA pouring insane amounts of money at their projects.
The their money is here again:
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/248637_1907003366419_1581842308_1856809_6438337_n. jpg

Rodolfo Fernando Rojo: "The person who did this are not stupid spectator, is paid for it..."

Yeah, it is about money.

[wwbroe]

And the stone is not evn at the driving line.....He must have been paid to hit it.

[N.O.T]

LOL....

[Rallyper]

Pffff!

Quite an impressive cheating rate they have at Citroën. 6 manu titles and 7 driver's titles by cheating ... wow! ... They have fooled all of us, but a good thing you made us aware of all their cheating :rolleyes:

Maybe Ford should just change their approch to the WRC. It's pathetic the lack of titles despite their long involvement in the sport. The managament is not good enough. The reliability is not good enough. Their drivers aren't fast enough. That's why they keep losing and then you can all stand on the side shouting "cheaters" at their opponents instead of focusing on where the issue of the lack of results really are!

OK. Citroen has won a lot. But remember Mikko (Ford) gave away the title in 2009 because of sportsmanship. Could be an example for the other teams...

[N.O.T]

LOL...this thread deserves a sticky......

[Rallyper]

and BTW why was there two alternative ways in the roundabout in the first place?

[N.O.T]

in order for Citroen to get another win by cheating of course.....i am surprised you even ask such question.

[AndyRAC]

Oh dear me, it's over, move on.

[Zeakiwi]

Do the stage opening vehicles have forward facing video cameras ?
I would like to see the part of the stage where Latvala hit the rock.

[N.O.T]

the rock was placed there from the citroen team...or maybe Mr Bartoz put it there after he removed the tape from the junction....

Some of you guys should quit watching this sport, you have no idea whatsoever about anything....

[Rallyper]

in order for Citroen to get another win by cheating of course.....i am surprised you even ask such question.

I dont know if you think i´m sarcastic or if you are in your answer, but the qustion I asked is relevant and should have been asked before the rally.

[N.O.T]

can a moderator lock this thing ??

[Rallyper]

Hehe.... :rotflmao:

[Bobcat]

SS13 proves unlucky in Argentina | Flying Finn Blog | Page 1 | WRC News | Jun 2011 | Crash.Net (http://www.crash.net/world+rally/blog/169862/1/60852/ss13_proves_unlucky_in_argentina.html)

JML:
"The impact happened in a very quick section and in my opinion it didn't look like the rock had been pulled out of the ruts by any of the other runners. I was first car on the road and normally you don't see rocks like that when you are first, even though it was the second pass, because the 'zero' car has gone through before.

I don't have any confirmation where the rock came from, but it was very big and sharp and it hit a sensitive area. The Fiesta RS WRC is very strong but if a rock that size hits the front suspension on any car it is not going to be able to withstand it.

I didn't have time to think initially and didn't realise how bad it was. I drove about a kilometre after the impact and then I started to notice something wasn't right. The TCA was bent by the impact and later one of the fixing points broke and the left front wheel started to move freely.

In that moment when I was fighting with the problems, I wasn't 100 per cent sure where it had happened. I felt a couple of impacts but later from the onboard camera shots I could see the rock more clearly. I don't know where it came from - although there is a possibility some spectators put it there."

[bowler]

Do the stage opening vehicles have forward facing video cameras ?
I would like to see the part of the stage where Latvala hit the rock.

yes they do, but they are for the organisers and the FIA, and are not public

[Juha_Koo]

Onboard with Petter on the second pass of El Condor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzSuJt5mDPYhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3CNlC8tzGA

"The junction" is from 19:22 onwards. Interesting... Sounds like atleast Petter/Chris had some pre-information about the cut because of Chris' comments "there's no tape, there's no tape, keep going!"

[DonJippo]

Onboard with Petter on the second pass of El Condor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzSuJt5mDPYhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3CNlC8tzGA

"The junction" is from 19:22 onwards. Interesting... Sounds like atleast Petter/Chris had some pre-information about the cut because of Chris' comments "there's no tape, there's no tape, keep going!"

Citroen had people on the junction who informed their crews before second pass that tape was removed.

[Hartusvuori]

Onboard with Petter on the second pass of El Condor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzSuJt5mDPYhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3CNlC8tzGA

"The junction" is from 19:22 onwards. Interesting... Sounds like atleast Petter/Chris had some pre-information about the cut because of Chris' comments "there's no tape, there's no tape, keep going!"

Did you heard pacenotes, comments, etc. on this video, because all I get is motor sound.

[Juha_Koo]

Did you heard pacenotes, comments, etc. on this video, because all I get is motor sound.

Sounds like you have your left or right audio channel on mute, most WRC onboards in Youtube have ambient sound and intercom audio split to L/R channels.

[OldF]

Onboard with Petter on the second pass of El Condor: YouTube - ‪WRC Onboards 2011: Argentina - Petter Solberg SS07. Requested by elbooyakero‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3CNlC8tzGA)

"The junction" is from 19:22 onwards. Interesting... Sounds like atleast Petter/Chris had some pre-information about the cut because of Chris' comments "there's no tape, there's no tape, keep going!"

It looks like Petter is going to drive the longer way but as I could hear it Chris is saying: “Keep on left, keep on left, keep on left”.

[DonJippo]

It looks like Petter is going to drive the longer way but as I could hear it Chris is saying: “Keep on left, keep on left, keep on left”.

He says "There is no tape keep on left keep on left"

[OldF]

You’re quite right about that. I had to put my ear close to the speaker and then I barely heard the “there’s no tape” (not so good speakers in a laptop).