Renault potentially with the weakest driver line-up of the big teams?

[Jefe Máximo]

I know, let's not judge them from one race. But if we compare the "top 3" in recent years Ferrari, Renault and McLaren, it looks as if Renault's drivers might not match up to the other two, irrespective of their cars' performance.

Raikkonen:Massa vs Alonso:Hamilton vs Fisichella:Kovaleinen


Now, the third team seem rather lightweight as compared to the other two. And for some reason I see Fisichella being the weak link over the whole season for Renault. He was never able to match Alonso, and traditionally his performance dips as the season progresses. Heikki will get better as he gets more races under his belt, and Hamilton already looks rather comfortable. Massa is an assured racer after last season and we don't need to say anything about Alonso and Rakka.

I don't think Renault have a driver who can win the WDC even if their car matches the other two teams. Did Flavio's gamble to stick with Fisichella and add a rookie to the mix seem like an unecessary risk - even after one race?

Well, my overreacting mind says probably yes.

[seppefan]

YES

[Ian McC]

I agree with you about Fisichella, fits into the same group as the likes of DC and RB, it's never going to be his year either! Heikki has potential but as yet I don't know if he has what it takes to be a champion. I know it's early yet but it wouldn't surprise me if Renault don't win a race this year.

[ATF]

I agree - Renault do not have a driver capable of winning the WDC. And that means they won't win the WCC either.

In my opinion, Fisichella has had one too many chances and has just not delivered. If the talk of Webber going there next year is true, I don't know why they didn't just have him for 2007.

Heikki will probably be overshadowed somewhat by fellow rookie Lewis this year. But his car isn't as good as the McLaren so it's way too early to judge him. I reckon that he will improve as the season goes on and be Renault's next favourite.

I can easily see Renault going through 2007 winless. They may follow the path of Ferrari's miserable title defence in 2005 and bounce back next year...or this season may be a "Williams 1998" (and look where that team is now)!!

[F1boat]

Since their car is weaker, it is hard to tell, but probably - yes, they have a weaker line-up then Ferrai and Mclaren.

[Donney]

They don't look like the same team in 2005 and 2006 which makes you wonder what's missing now.

I'll wait a few races to see if it was just an unfortunate start of the season or the preview of what's to come.

[trumperZ06]

:dozey: Agree.... Fisi is NOT a number one team driver !!!

Why Renault didn't find a replacement... knowing that Alonso was leaving for McLaren... no one knows !

[Ian McC]

Why Renault didn't find a replacement... knowing that Alonso was leaving for McLaren... no one knows !

The question would of been who?

I believe they tried Kimi without any luck, who else was there?

[trumperZ06]

;) Hhmmmm... let's see, JPM or even Mark Webber would be stronger than Fisi !!! Both drivers were available last year.

[gm99]

I always thought it would have made more sense to put Webber alongside Fisi at Renault and let Heikki learn the ropes at Red Bull (and today he showed he's still got a lot to learn).

[Roamy]

JV well be testing shortly for Renault. There is no way flavio will put up with this **** beyond the asian swing.

[Garry Walker]

;) Hhmmmm... let's see, JPM or even Mark Webber would be stronger than Fisi !!! Both drivers were available last year.

JPM is a far weaker driver than Fisi, whereas Webbo is probably mentally stronger and better qualifier, but not as good in the race.

Renault has a weaker driver line-up than Ferrari and McLaren yes, but that isnt their main problem at the moment.

[Somebody]

Obviously. Fisi is weak, and Heikki is a rookie. While McLaren also have a rookie, they also have the WDC, and Ferrari have two experienced drivers.

I don't really think it's in any doubt.

[jso1985]

Renault clearly miss a team leader, but they surely didn't had many options to replace Fisi.
also their rookie seems to be way too erratci compared to Kubica or Hamilton

[slinkster]

IHeikki will probably be overshadowed somewhat by fellow rookie Lewis this year. But his car isn't as good as the McLaren so it's way too early to judge him. I reckon that he will improve as the season goes on and be Renault's next favourite.

My thoughts too... he's not a bad driver... other rookies probably have similar, more quieter debuts with hiccups. It is afterall, still a learning curve.

I HOPE he will improve and I have faith in his driving abilities.. but this isn't echoed in my faith in the Renault team this year. I think they could be disappointing... but who knows?!

[Ian McC]

I have never been a fan of testing being the best route into F1, I believe that if a driver has proven himself good enough to get into F1 then he should be racing and maintaining his skill.

Looking at HK vs LH I have to wonder if this plays a factor in it.

[truefan72]

:dozey: Agree.... Fisi is NOT a number one team driver !!!

Why Renault didn't find a replacement... knowing that Alonso was leaving for McLaren... no one knows !

arrogance

should have dropped fisi and picked up Webber

...and brought in JPM he would have been perfect in that car

IMO the car isn't weaker the drivers are.
btw in contrast to many others, I do like the new livery on the car, it stands out

[stevie_gerrard]

Fisichella doesnt have Alonso to cover up his problems anymore, and Heikki will take half a season to relax i think in formula 1, so it does not look good for Renault.

But im sure they will prove me wrong ;)

[rlenis]

arrogance

should have dropped fisi and picked up Webber

...and brought in JPM he would have been perfect in that car

IMO the car isn't weaker the drivers are.
btw in contrast to many others, I do like the new livery on the car, it stands out

I second that .

[ClarkFan]

:dozey: Agree.... Fisi is NOT a number one team driver !!!

Why Renault didn't find a replacement... knowing that Alonso was leaving for McLaren... no one knows !

I think that with the tire change, Flavio may have decided that 2007 was a write-off year for Renault. With frugal management in charge of the company, it is better to have a write-off year with a low driver budget than a high one.

If Kovalainen isn't looking like a future champion by mid-year, I look for Renault to be aggressively pursuing new drivers for 2008.

ClarkFan

[Hawkmoon]

What other serious options did Renault have? They apparently flirted with Raikkonen and Schumi but never had any real chance of getting either which meant they were always going to have to rely on a second tier driver to lead the team.

The options? Webber, JPM or Fisichella. Six of one, half-a-dozen of the other in my opinion. I think ClarkFan has it right. Flavio new that even if the car was up to it, his drivers were probably not going to be so why not let Fisichella babysit Kovalainen for a year?

[Ranger]

Their performance on Sunday pondered the question of what position COULD have been brought out of the car.

[Ian McC]

Their performance on Sunday pondered the question of what position COULD have been brought out of the car.

If Alonso was still there what would of happened? Aside from the fact that we can't answer if the car would be any better developed with him in it, I don't expect he would of got much higher than 4th.

[jens]

I see that you still can't get over your Montoya, Webber and Villeneuve replacements. Wonder, how long will those "ifs" and "buts" continue and hopefully soon you'll forgive to Fisi that he has blocked the way of those drivers into a top team. :)

Why criticize Fisi? He managed to beat Kovalainen clearly. I remember that before the start of the season some guys thought that Fisi should be replaced with Piquet Jr - in that case Renault would have probably scored zero points!

[BDunnell]

I see that you still can't get over your Montoya, Webber and Villeneuve replacements. Wonder, how long will those "ifs" and "buts" continue and hopefully soon you'll forgive to Fisi that he has blocked the way of those drivers into a top team. :)

Why criticize Fisi? He managed to beat Kovalainen clearly. I remember that before the start of the season some guys thought that Fisi should be replaced with Piquet Jr - in that case Renault would have probably scored zero points!

Yes, given that Fisichella is simply not WDC material and the team probably realises as much, they are surely expecting little more than what he managed to do.

[Garry Walker]

I see that you still can't get over your Montoya, Webber and Villeneuve replacements. Wonder, how long will those "ifs" and "buts" continue and hopefully soon you'll forgive to Fisi that he has blocked the way of those drivers into a top team. :)


Indeed, I agree 100%.
As long as Montoya is racing, his fanboys will claim he deserves a top seat in F1 and could potentially be a World Champ, but thankfully there are people with 3-digit IQs, who obviously dont take claims like that seriously.

[rlenis]

Indeed, I agree 100%.
As long as Montoya is racing, his fanboys will claim he deserves a top seat in F1 and could potentially be a World Champ, but thankfully there are people with 3-digit IQs, who obviously dont take claims like that seriously.

Dude, anything you have to say here about Montoya gets immediately invalidated by your stupid attempt to go over the NASCAR forum to troll and bash JPM for no reason what so ever. get a life bozo.

[BrentJackson]

JV well be testing shortly for Renault. There is no way flavio will put up with this **** beyond the asian swing.

I am a Canuck and a JV fan, but Jacques is hardly any better than Fisi is, so I doubt Renault will replace Fisi with JV.

[truefan72]

Indeed, I agree 100%.
As long as Montoya is racing, his fanboys will claim he deserves a top seat in F1 and could potentially be a World Champ, but thankfully there are people with 3-digit IQs, who obviously dont take claims like that seriously.

Garry "the hater" walker at it again

[Eki]

Why Renault didn't find a replacement... knowing that Alonso was leaving for McLaren... no one knows !
And who was available to replace Fisichella as #1 at Renault?

EDIT: Sorry, should have read further. I don't think Montoya or Webber would have been better.

[rlenis]

well lets see, when Montoya had a winning car in 05 he won 3 races, on one beating the fastest driver in F1 fair and square. compared to Fischella who only managed 2 wins with more then twice as many races Montoya had in a winning car.

with my eyes close I would put my money on Montoya getting more out the 07 Renault then Fisichella.

[jens]

Montoya didn't want to race in F1 any more and he was unmotivated. You can't put someone driving under compulsion if he doesn't want to or isn't fully dedicated to the sport. He crashed quite a lot in 2006 (and already in 2005) and probably would have continued that trend in 2007... but that's just my thought. :)

[W8&C]

He crashed quite a lot in 2006 (and already in 2005) and probably would have continued that trend in 2007... but that's just my thought. :) What would you prefer:

a potential crash kid racing with the top pack most of the time or a mediocre driver mainly cruising for points?

I don´t rate Montoya too high, especially in terms of racing intelligently, but I would prefer him against Fisichella without hesitation.

[jens]

What would you prefer:

a potential crash kid racing with the top pack most of the time or a mediocre driver mainly cruising for points?

I don´t rate Montoya too high, especially in terms of racing intelligently, but I would prefer him against Fisichella without hesitation.

I don't think Montoya could have done much better than Fisi in Australia, if he had done any better at all. With that car Montoya would also be forced to just "cruise for points" like he mostly did for example in 2004. And as I somewhere said - Montoya is unmotivated when driving a mediocre machinery and I suspect he wouldn't have been very exalted joining a team that is a reigning Champion, but then after having signed him has dropped backwards.

[W8&C]

I don't think Montoya could have done much better than Fisi in Australia, ...At least he probably would have been more entertaining :) .

[rlenis]

Montoya didn't want to race in F1 any more and he was unmotivated. You can't put someone driving under compulsion if he doesn't want to or isn't fully dedicated to the sport. He crashed quite a lot in 2006 (and already in 2005) and probably would have continued that trend in 2007... but that's just my thought. :)

I think we all know why Montoya was de-motivated as you said. His situation in Mclaren was not healthy and with a lot of tension since the shoulder injury.
His accidents, I think were primarily for having problems with the handling of the car and trying to hard to keep up with Kimi’s pace. I think he never accepted the fact that Kimi was a faster driver and was not able to deal with it and concentrate on bringing in good results. He always raced with a winning attitude and anything less did not really matter while he was in Mclaren since he felt the team did not really care for him and had Alonso waiting on the sidelines. (Hey even Kimi admitted last year he didn’t really cared if he came in 2nd or 3rd after his off-track moment in Canada where he surrendered second place to Michael). The truth is that last years Mclaren was very average to say the best, even the Honda was much better in some races.

[rlenis]

Montoya is unmotivated when driving a mediocre machinery and I suspect he wouldn't have been very exalted joining a team that is a reigning Champion, but then after having signed him has dropped backwards.

I don't think Renault can be considered a Mediocre machinery after two very successfully years.

[rlenis]

With that car Montoya would also be forced to just "cruise for points" like he mostly did for example in 2004.

Dude, cruise for points in 2004? You really do not know what you are talking about do you? There were at least 4 drivers with better cars then the Williams by mid-season in 04, despite of that he was able to collect 2 podiums and a 4 place in Monaco in the first 6 races of the season, while Ralf was finishing 6th and 7th. Then on the second half the Renault were the third best team and despite of that he was still able to depart the team with a win in Brazil overtaking Raikonnen for lead.(last Williams’ win BTW).
Now tell me do you think, Fisichella would have been able to do that? I don’t think so.

[jens]

Dude, cruise for points in 2004? You really do not know what you are talking about do you? There were at least 4 drivers with better cars then the Williams by mid-season in 04, despite of that he was able to collect 2 podiums and a 4 place in Monaco in the first 6 races of the season, while Ralf was finishing 6th and 7th. Then on the second half the Renault were the third best team and despite of that he was still able to depart the team with a win in Brazil overtaking Raikonnen for lead.(last Williams’ win BTW).
Now tell me do you think, Fisichella would have been able to do that? I don’t think so.

Fisichella drove very well in 2004 in Sauber, scoring consistently (as he has often been criticized for being inconsistent!) points. Remember for example British GP - he finished right at the tail of Montoya in an inferior car. IMO Fisi's 22 points were more impressive than Montoya's 58 points. And in Brazil Montoya had the best car: Ferrari was struggling with tyres, Renault was slow in the last race (Alonso's fine strategy kept him 4th) and BAR was also out of pace with Button suffering an engine problem.

And Ralf managed to outdrive Montoya in Australia, Canada and Japan. On the last two occasions very clearly. In those races Montoya really was "cruising". Ralf was also in position to beat him in China if he hadn't a collision.

[Garry Walker]

well lets see, when Montoya had a winning car in 05 he won 3 races, on one beating the fastest driver in F1 fair and square. compared to Fischella who only managed 2 wins with more then twice as many races Montoya had in a winning car.


And in 2 of those wins/races his teammate was FAR faster than him, but was screwed by engine changes - there is no two ways about it. Kimi took montoya apart and retired him from f1.

as for 2004 - Montoya struggled to beat Gene comprehensivley and Ralf was quite often better than him aswell, Fisi performed better in 2004 than montoya.

[rlenis]

Fisichella drove very well in 2004 in Sauber, scoring consistently (as he has often been criticized for being inconsistent!) points. Remember for example British GP - he finished right at the tail of Montoya in an inferior car. IMO Fisi's 22 points were more impressive than Montoya's 58 points. And in Brazil Montoya had the best car: Ferrari was struggling with tyres, Renault was slow in the last race (Alonso's fine strategy kept him 4th) and BAR was also out of pace with Button suffering an engine problem.

And Ralf managed to outdrive Montoya in Australia, Canada and Japan. On the last two occasions very clearly. In those races Montoya really was "cruising". Ralf was also in position to beat him in China if he hadn't a collision.

Sauber could not haven been that bad in 04, after all they were powered by the same Ferrari engines which were so dominant that year. I actually think they could have done much better with better drivers. That year we saw Massa pulling some great overtaking maneuvers (especially on the Hondas) that could only have been possible with a powerful engine.
In Brazil, Kimi’s car was very strong also otherwise he wouldn’t have been able to take the lead early from the Ferrari of Barichello. He also recorded the second fastest lap of the race (only one hundredth of a second slower then Montoya’s). Michael at some point was running 7th and spun costing him some valuable positions that he had to make up for late in the race. It was a damp race and anyone could have won it but Montoya was the best driver that day out of those in contention for the win.

Ralf drove better then Montoya in Canada, Japan and China I’ll give you those but in Australia it was a different story. Montoya out-qulified Ralf and had a bad start where he locked up and gave up several positions to trulli and Ralf. The Ferraris took off with Alonso and Button. Montoya then fought his way back and overtook Ralf and then Trulli. He had two terrible pit-stops specially the last one where he surrendered the position back to Ralf due to a tire problem.

By the way going to back to Ralf, I think he can do better then Fisichella.

[rlenis]

I guess you did not get the msg to get a life.. a real one and get laid every once in a while to let all of the frustration out...

Why do you have to put your nose everywhere Montoya is discussed on this forum even on the NASCAR threads?

2004 Montoya - Gene ..
Let's see
France - jpm qailifies 6th and Gene 8th and finishes the race 15 seconds in front of Gene
Silverstone - jpm qualifies 7th and Gene 12th and finishes the race 22 seconds in front of Gene.

Why make up stories to mislead the average reader?

[Timber]

Fishi is never at fault for a bad drive .... It is always the CAR !!

[tintop]

Indeed, I agree 100%.
As long as Montoya is racing, his fanboys will claim he deserves a top seat in F1 and could potentially be a World Champ, but thankfully there are people with 3-digit IQs, who obviously dont take claims like that seriously.

Or people with equally blind hatred for the man that will keep posting rubbish like Fisi's superiority to JPM. :s mokin:

[Roamy]

I think Fish should hang it up and seek a movie career

[raikk]

I think Fish should hang it up and seek a movie career

Part 2 of Finding Nemo ?

[DimitraF1]

renault was hoping that kimi would be their driver but at the end they take jean tod's finger :P thats why they stay with that 2 weak drivers

[Garry Walker]

I guess you did not get the msg to get a life.. a real one and get laid every once in a while to let all of the frustration out...
dont worry, I have lovely girlfriend already, but you need to get over your desire to marry montoya instead of having a normal relationship.



Why do you have to put your nose everywhere Montoya is discussed on this forum even on the NASCAR threads?

2004 Montoya - Gene ..
Let's see
France - jpm qailifies 6th and Gene 8th and finishes the race 15 seconds in front of Gene
Silverstone - jpm qualifies 7th and Gene 12th and finishes the race 22 seconds in front of Gene.

Why make up stories to mislead the average reader?

oops, i was mistaken. It wasnt Gene who beat Montoya, it was actually Pizzonia :D The same pizzonia who was completely destroyed by Webbo...

[pino]

Garry, I am tired of reading about Montoya, and how much you "love" him, in all your posts. He's history in here, so stop it right now. Also don't let me catch you on Nascar Forum insulting him just for the fun of it and for provoke his fans.

Back to the topic now which is Renault...thanks !

[Garry Walker]

Garry, I am tired of reading about Montoya, and how much you "love" him, in all your posts. He's history in here, so stop it right now.

You will notice it wasnt me who brought him to this topic, it was another poster who claimed how JPM is much stronger than Fisi - am I not allowed to reply to posts like that?
I didnt bring his name to this topic.

[Ranger]

Regardless...

To me, Fisi seems to be a steady 1st driver and a steady 2nd driver.

However, when you are driving for the reigning champions, "steady" really isn't a trait you would want if you are a team principal for such a team.

[ClarkFan]

Part 2 of Finding Nemo ?

If he doesn't get quicker, Flavio may cast him in "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea."

:p

More seriously, this year's Renault driver lineup probably signals an intent to regroup after losing Michelin. With Alonso leaving, the championship wasn't in play. If HK isn't looking like a potential champion by midyear, look for Renault to be serious about pursuing a strong #1 for next year.

ClarkFan

[Ian McC]

Regardless...

To me, Fisi seems to be a steady 1st driver and a steady 2nd driver.

However, when you are driving for the reigning champions, "steady" really isn't a trait you would want if you are a team principal for such a team.

Indeed, steady is a good way of putting it, really leaves the team without a number 1 driver.

[Valve Bounce]

Flav made a big mistake - he should have hired ant.

[janneppi]

Fisichella sure isn't happy about Renaults current form, in Finnish media he is said to have said that the car needs to have it's front suspension re-done now instead of limping along with the current car.
He also said(perhaps) that their 1,5 second difference to Ferrari was a shock to the team, but won't put weight on Alonsos departure as a reason for the lack of speed.

[jens]

Flav made a big mistake - he should have hired ant.

You already remind me a bit of fousto, who says everywhere that Villeneuve should have been hired. :p :

[Garry Walker]

Flav made a big mistake - he should have hired ant.

The guy who just got beaten by his slow teammate at Oz? Yep, that exactly what would help Renault.

[Robinho]

or maybe he could have gone for Massa, but then he just got beaten by his alcoholic, over-rated, car breaking teamate didn't he ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

Fisichella has made clear what his intentions are - to continue racing with Renault until 2011.

www.planet-f1.com story (http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2072133,00.html)

I suspect that Briatore may have something to say about that.

[OmarF1]

Renault has Alonso and Michelin hangover, they should try Bourdais he's the only real, untested option for Renault a good bet if you ask me, Bourdais is no Da Matta or Zanardi, but Flavio's pimping business does not allow that. what a fu**ing shame.

[keysersoze]

Assuming 100% reliability by the grid, the team is only capable of 7th. So for GF to have 8 points after 3 races is no disgrace. With their current car Renault do not deserve a top line driver like Alonso or Kimi or, dare I say it, a Lewis Hamilton. They deserve a Button, a Rubens, a Webber, a Trulli, a driver of that echelon--which is exactly what they have. Giancarlo is on their level.

[Ranger]

Fisichella has made clear what his intentions are - to continue racing with Renault until 2011.

www.planet-f1.com story (http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2072133,00.html)

I suspect that Briatore may have something to say about that.
Like Barrichello believing he has more chance of winning the WDC with Honda than Ferrari, I think this is just blind optimism.

[Timber]

Fisichella has made clear what his intentions are - to continue racing with Renault until 2011.
Flavio does not own Renault racing .... HE hired the drivers , it is his fault
he always insist to have his own drivers in the cars .

[Timber]

Flavio's pimping business does not allow that. what a fu**ing shame.

[GridGirl]

I've read this thread and I can agree with you that are blaming the driver as well those that are blaming the car.

From my knowledge, and something that definately hasnt been mentioned in this thread and I've only once seen briefly mentioned in the press is that Renault have a pretty fundament fuel pump problem. From what I heard they've been working round the clock for pretty much the last 2 months to solve it and they havent. They also appear to be on the verge of scrapping the car altogether, I think that decision was being made last week sometime.

So yes, the driver line up isnt the strongest, but the car aint great either and Renault know it. They can hardly put pressure on the driver to win every race when they know its a big yellow and blue pile of junk themselves.

[keysersoze]

. . . and don't forget the orange!

[Garry Walker]

I've read this thread and I can agree with you that are blaming the driver as well those that are blaming the car.

From my knowledge, and something that definately hasnt been mentioned in this thread and I've only once seen briefly mentioned in the press is that Renault have a pretty fundament fuel pump problem. From what I heard they've been working round the clock for pretty much the last 2 months to solve it and they havent
A fuel pump problem isnt something that makes them 1,5 seconds per lap slower.

Fisi wont be in F1 in by at the latest 2009, no chance of him being in F1 in 2011

[GridGirl]

Maybe it doesn't have a direct effect on lap speed, but when all their efforts are going on that, the indirect effect is that they are paying little attention to aerodynamics and other developmental issues which could potentially make them faster.

[Garry Walker]

Maybe it doesn't have a direct effect on lap speed, but when all their efforts are going on that, the indirect effect is that they are paying little attention to aerodynamics and other developmental issues which could potentially make them faster.

Renaults problem is that they spent all their energy on last years car, so for this year they were out of the game before it had even started.

[F1boat]

Renaults problem is that they spent all their energy on last years car, so for this year they were out of the game before it had even started.

Maybe it was worth it. Without this effort from 2nd they would have benn 3rd (without top-driver). Now they are 4th, but were World Champions last year.

[jso1985]

A fuel pump problem isnt something that makes them 1,5 seconds per lap slower.

Fisi wont be in F1 in by at the latest 2009, no chance of him being in F1 in 2011

I wouldn't be so sure, take a look at Coukthard, with simple logic he should have been without a team after 2004

but I agree with the fuel pump issue, alright there's a problem there but I don't think it's the only one Renault is having right now