NGTC engines to be penalised from Thruxton

[Alfa Fan]

I've heard that the NGTC engined cars will be handicapped from the next meeting at Thruxton given their performance disparity with the S2000 engines in the first two meetings.

[MattL]

Seems quite likely, yes.

[Allyc85]

Seems fair really.

[DazzlaF1]

Seems fair really.

Especially at Thruxton as those NGTC turbos will have a ridiculous advantage on Britain's fastest trackwithout restrictions then it would be quite possible to see even Wrathall in an NGTC car beating the likes of Plato and Collard.

[AndySpeed]

Nothing much to discuss. Good move :up:

[Rollo]

This may sound a little churlish, but isn't it actually in the BTCC's interests to maintain the disparity? If the NGTC have a signigificant performance advantage, then shouldn't that act as an incentive for teams to migrate to the new format?

Reallly apart from Silverline Chevrolet, WSR and Tech-speed, all the major teams have already made the switch to the new engines at least. Lea Wood is still kicking about with a BTC-T car :eek:

[Allyc85]

Not really, thats what the gradual change over in rules are for IMO.

Last year il admit I did defend the AON Fords, but even with their tyre wear and extra weight I look back at it now and do agree that their speed advantage was a bit OTT!

[MrJan]

The danger now is that they'll penalise them too much for Thruxton and the others will trounce them. IIRC this sort of happened when Audi turned up with 4wd, they got a weight penalty and it ruined them.

[Torg22]

They need to be clever here and penalise the turbos according to what circuits they are on. ie... Brands was fine the way it was but Donny the turbo was head and shoulders better.

[Eurotech]

Well Gow did say that he would make sure the Turbos didn't have an advantage over the S2000s so this is definately the right thing to do.

I still don't understand why RML don't use the WTCC Cruze Turbo bodywork and suspension set ups etc and buy some Swindon engines to bolt into their car until they can develop an NGTC engine for themselves. If not RML then it could be something for Tech-Speed to do. Looking at the pace of the WTCC Cruzes, I'd say it would be the right thing to do from their point of view.

[Alfa Fan]

Just been announced that the boost pressure will be reduced to 0.1 bar below what that car recorded at Donington Park. So its a relative change rather than absolute limit.

[AndySpeed]

I still don't understand why RML don't use the WTCC Cruze Turbo bodywork and suspension set ups etc and buy some Swindon engines to bolt into their car until they can develop an NGTC engine for themselves.

RML are running a works team for Chevrolet and therefore will not want to bolt in anything other than a Chevrolet engine in there.

[Eurotech]

Yeah fair enough, tbh Chevrolet probably should have let them develop a 2.0 Turbo... Is it just me or does Chevy's participation in the BTCC look more solid than that in the WTCC at the moment??

[Allyc85]

just read in MN that Honda are far from happy with the reduction in boost and may possibly go back to running NA units! Surely its better to wait and see how things go this weekend before spitting the dummy out and anyway, its been said all along that changes could be made to the rules until everyone goes NGTC?!

[AndySpeed]

Yeah fair enough, tbh Chevrolet probably should have let them develop a 2.0 Turbo... Is it just me or does Chevy's participation in the BTCC look more solid than that in the WTCC at the moment??

I think quite the opposite, actually. The fact that they haven't developed a turbo yet suggests so too. The BTCC was seen as logical since there were no build or development costs required. The WTCC program is the one largely dictating the futue of Chevrolet in touring car racing I feel.

[BDunnell]

I think quite the opposite, actually. The fact that they haven't developed a turbo yet suggests so too. The BTCC was seen as logical since there were no build or development costs required. The WTCC program is the one largely dictating the futue of Chevrolet in touring car racing I feel.

But, at the same time, the WTCC's 1.6 turbo formula is hardly the one dictating the future of worldwide touring car racing. In fact, no formula can claim that. It is a shame, I still feel, that the FIA went down that road. The BTCC has come up with what I think is a superior formula in NGTC, just as it actually did with the BTC Touring regulations compared with S2000.

[AndySpeed]

Agreed, but at least the manufacturer's are still supporting those involved in WTCC - BMW developing their 1.6 customer engine for example. I wonder how much influence Chevrolet had in encouraging the WTCC to go to 1.6 engines - you can't actually get a 2 litre petrol Cruze for the road can you!...

The BTCC is surely in a better position than with BTC-Touring with the Scandinavians on board too.

[Alfa Fan]

It still looks like they haven't gone far enough. How much longer are they going to stick around getting their arse kicked?

[BDunnell]

It still looks like they haven't gone far enough. How much longer are they going to stick around getting their arse kicked?

Were I from Honda/Team Dynamics/Neil Brown, I'd be pretty hacked off at having developed what is clearly the fastest car/engine combination out there by far, all entirely within the rules, and then see it being pegged back for being too good. But there is clearly still a problem for TOCA to address, and it won't be able to do so without upsetting somebody. The fact that no normally-aspirated car other than Plato's looked even remotely likely of getting into the top 10 (until MacDowall inherited 10th) demonstrates that.

[Alfa Fan]

But from the very first press release regarding the introduction of NGTC engines, it was always stated they would be kept level with S2000 until 2013.

[BDunnell]

But from the very first press release regarding the introduction of NGTC engines, it was always stated they would be kept level with S2000 until 2013.

Indeed, but this was always going to be easier said than done. And it doesn't disguise the fact that, again, a team is being penalised merely for having come up with a better package.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

The BTCC has come up with what I think is a superior formula in NGTC, just as it actually did with the BTC Touring regulations compared with S2000.

I always felt that BTC Touring was aimed at the type of cars that few manufacturers actually produced.

[Eurotech]

I still think the best way to do it is through the SRO style 'Balance of Performance' tests for FIA GT1/GT3 to equalise the cars before start of the season and then freeze development until after the last race of the season.

[Alfa Fan]

Nah, the BTCC has always let the good teams be quicker than the rest. The only problem here is that a different specification of car is so much quicker.

Here's a proposition for you. Do you think if the full NGTC cars had turned out to be significantly faster than the existing machinery, with or without NGTC engines, and Frank Wrathall was running away with the championship with Hughes & Pinkney in 2nd & 3rd, we'd have anyone saying that the new regs are the future and the others just need to stop whining?

It is clear that the turbo cars are still too fast.

[BDunnell]

Nah, the BTCC has always let the good teams be quicker than the rest. The only problem here is that a different specification of car is so much quicker.

More than that, one particular car in that different specification is so much quicker than the others.



It is clear that the turbo cars are still too fast.

The interesting thing is that when Plato got in front at Thruxton, he was easily able to maintain a lead and win the race. What does that tell us? The combination of him and the Cruze is, however, quite clearly the fastest by far amongst the non-turbo runners. I'd say that their true pace at Thruxton was somewhere around the positions Collard and MacDowell were in race one, i.e. on the fringes of the top 10. Moreover, it looks all but impossible for a normally-aspirated car to actually race against a turbo. It is, as you say, a problem.

[Alfa Fan]

But remember the Cruze was very, very good round Thruxton last year. Only beaten by the Giovanardi/888/Vectra combination which had been utterly dominant on that track for the past 2-3 years. In the first half of the season the Cruze didn't fair anywhere near as well as it did Snetterton onwards, yet at Thruxton it was nearly a match for the Vectra.

By rights Plato "should" have won the first two races last weekend, with possibly competition from the Vectras. And just to be clear, I'm in no way a Plato fan. I don't dislike him, but it should be clear to even those who do, that the balance between the two isn't right.

The Honda is so much faster than the other NGTC cars because, frankly, its a better car. I think Gio in the Vectra would be able to compete with them on some of the fast tracks like Thruxton, but over a season, not likely. Other than that there's only the Fords, who have only shown true pace with the turbo button installed, and the SEAT which has always been known to be a good chassis, but slightly hindered with aerodynamics.

[rwdvectra]

RML are running a works team for Chevrolet and therefore will not want to bolt in anything other than a Chevrolet engine in there.


The engine isn't a chevrolet engine. It's a gm engine that traces back to the vectra b and cav supertourer engines. The same engines swindon built for vauxhall throughout the 90's.