McLaren vs Renault - the impact of Alonso

[jens]

One thread from me today. McLaren vs Renault. I'm wondering whether Alonso's impact is really that strong... And I'm not talking about raw speed, but about car development.

I mean, McLaren wasn't a top car last year, also they lost several important engineers and have a totally new driver line-up for this year. But getting Alonso has done a miracle - the car is already better than Renault and close to the top. That Spaniard amazes me more and more and I think he could well be compared with M. Schumacher. Similarities are clear.

On the contrary - Renault lost one Alonso and practically nothing more. And look at the car now! If Fisi had been 5th on an unsuitable circuit for him like Imola or Magny-Cours, then we might say that the driver was slow, but at Albert Park, where he won in 2005 and could have won last year if he hadn't stalled. Now lucky 5th (Kubica retired and Massa finished behind)?? It's pretty evident that Renault's machinery is weaker than McLaren's, also it's struggling to keep the pace with BMWs. I really thought that Renault still can build a top-class car, but can't they really without Alonso? (when Alonso was working for them since 2002, then they got better and better every year) And poor Fisichella again - again, when he is a team leader, he looks like a great driver beating a team-mate, but struggling in a half-decent car at best. But is he as a team leader really unable to develop the car to the top? That may also explain, why Benetton was getting weaker and weaker during 1998-2001, when Fisi was their team leader.

[F1boat]

I think that the change to Bridgestone is Renault's biggest problem.

[jens]

I think that the change to Bridgestone is Renault's biggest problem.

McLaren has also changed to B-stones, but somehow they have managed to adapt a lot better?!

[F1boat]

Maybe Renault worked better with Michelins.

[Garry Walker]

Renaults problem is that they dont have michelins anymore, check the interview with Briatore at autosport. BS tyres work with McLarens car very well, but Renault is built so that they have more weight at rear, that doesnt work with BS tyres. It used to be way to go with Michelins.

Alonso has nothing to do with McLaren suddenly being better than last year.

[FAlonso]

Renault chief Flavio Briatore admitted on Sunday to missing World Champion Fernando Alonso who witched to McLaren over the winter. Alonso today finished 7.2 seconds behind winner Kimi Raikkonen.

The best Renault runner, Alonso's former team-mate Giancarlo Fisichella, crossed the chequered flag one minute later, leading Briatore to recall 1996 when back to back world champion Michael Schumacher switched from Benetton to Ferrari.

"In the same way that I missed Michael then, now I miss Fernando," the Italian Team Principal said. To the newspaper Welt, he admitted that the loss of the Spaniard has cost Renault about half a second per lap.

source F1-Live.com

Alonso is bad, Hamilton is great, Renault are bad because of the tires, yada, yada, yada... These "anti-someone" trends are always amusing. It´s Fernando's turn now. Others have preceeded him. It´s fine. Makes winning even better. Cheers to the British Press!

PS: Hamilton is a top guy. Let´s hope this over-hype doesn´t ruin him. Both he and Fernando will bring McLaren forward.

[Ian McC]

It is difficult to say how much of a difference he has made to the team so far, I doubt that FA can take much credit so far for the performance of the team.

[Donney]

I like to think that the driver's input means something in all the pre-season testing, but what do I now? :confused:

[jens]

Well, the Michelin problem is also another good explanation about Renault. But probably time will give us answers. If Renault can get better in future, then they have proved that they can do well without Alonso. And that's what I'm really hoping for - would like to see Fisichella winning another race before the end of his career and especially at Monaco or Montreal, where he has been always quick. These races are not far from now! But also probably it can't be said that the loss of Alonso hasn't had any impact on Renault. The team was built around him and now the team is in new situation.

[ArrowsFA1]

Alonso has nothing to do with McLaren suddenly being better than last year.
I disagree. I think his arrival, along with the signing of Hamilton, has reinvigorated McLaren. That might not have a direct effect on performance, but indirectly it has made a difference, just as Alonso's departure from Renault has had a negative impact on their motivation. They are not acting or talking like two-time champions, and their expectations seem to have taken a dive as well.

[OTA]

Finally some logic into this issue. The impact is large, but even larger by the Hamilton effect. Reno is been left with 0 top drivers while Mac has two of them.

Cheers
David

[Garry Walker]

I disagree. I think his arrival, along with the signing of Hamilton, has reinvigorated McLaren. That might not have a direct effect on performance, but indirectly it has made a difference, just as Alonso's departure from Renault has had a negative impact on their motivation. They are not acting or talking like two-time champions, and their expectations seem to have taken a dive as well.

Wrong and Wrong - did you read my post? Renault is struggling with the BS tyres, their car has always been designed totally differently compared to what the BS tyres require.

McLaren has been the opposite - they have gained from BS tyres, and this years rules.
Alonso has nothing to do with it, its not like he has suddenly told the engineers how to design a better car (besides that, he has only tested for a very little time, not enough for any driver to have an impact). Those are facts.

[akv89]

Wrong and Wrong - did you read my post? Renault is struggling with the BS tyres, their car has always been designed totally differently compared to what the BS tyres require.

McLaren has been the opposite - they have gained from BS tyres, and this years rules.
Alonso has nothing to do with it, its not like he has suddenly told the engineers how to design a better car (besides that, he has only tested for a very little time, not enough for any driver to have an impact). Those are facts.
Arrows did not say that Alonso designed the car. He said that a World Champion coming into the McLaren team could have raised the usually damp morale at McLaren. Likewise as the interview with Briatore suggests, his departure demoralized members of Team Renault. Tires may play a big part but you can't say that Alonso has absolutely nothing to do with the way things turned out this year.

[Garry Walker]

Arrows did not say that Alonso designed the car. He said that a World Champion coming into the McLaren team could have raised the usually damp morale at McLaren. Likewise as the interview with Briatore suggests, his departure demoralized members of Team Renault. Tires may play a big part but you can't say that Alonso has absolutely nothing to do with the way things turned out this year.

How do you know what the morale at McLaren was?

[Kieran20]

renault have never really been the fastest team. the last two seasons they have been strong at the start. then been on damage limitation for the rest of the season. i think this year now without alonso they dont have a driver who can deliver the maximum. and that is their biggest problem.

[akv89]

How do you know what the morale at McLaren was?

I was referring to the robotic way in which things worked in McLaren under the leadership of Ron Dennis. But why don't you ask that question to Kimi Raikkonnen or Juan Pablo Montoya? ;)

[ioan]

I disagree. I think his arrival, along with the signing of Hamilton, has reinvigorated McLaren. That might not have a direct effect on performance, but indirectly it has made a difference, just as Alonso's departure from Renault has had a negative impact on their motivation.

Morale won't make a difference regarding reliability if I might disturb your logics.
What they needed was technical knowledge and it seems they got some.

Maybe Newey leaving had a positive effect on McLaren's technical team!

As for Renault, they struggle with the tires, and that does have little to do with Alonso, and a lot with Bridgestone.

[ioan]

I was referring to the robotic way in which things worked in McLaren under the leadership of Ron Dennis.

Did Ron leave McLaren and Alonso took his place? I really thought I've seen Ron there yesterday as team principal.

[akv89]

Morale won't make a difference regarding reliability if I might disturb your logics.
What they needed was technical knowledge and it seems they got some.


I disagree, morale makes a great deal of difference. Skillful technicians need to be motivated enough to work hard and reflect their potential in order to build a winning car. You will recall that motivating the team was one of Schumacher's biggest assets.
It is also true that technical knowledge is important. I dont know how much Alonso has, but Garry Walker seems to think he has none and that is why I never brought up the subject.


Did Ron leave McLaren and Alonso took his place? I really thought I've seen Ron there yesterday as team principal.

Of course Ron Dennis is still principal, c'mon ioan I thought you would have known that :p :. What McLaren didn't have is a World Champion. And with Alonso now in their team, I can't believe when someone says that it didn't make the slightest amount of difference in the way the members of the McLaren team think

[ioan]

What McLaren didn't have is a World Champion. And with Alonso now in their team, I can't believe when someone says that it didn't make the slightest amount of difference in the way the members of the McLaren team think

Alonso to McLaren did not affect this year's car design or reliability for that matter, not for now anyway.

Also McLaren and RD won't change their way because of FA, he will change his (see haircut change already :p : ).

[wedge]

For once I'm going to agree with Garry Walker.

It's no secret Renault had the strongest relationship with Michelin and optimised the car better than any of the other Michelin teams, the same way that Ferrari have/had the strongest relationship with BS and found a way to optimise their car to much stiffer construction BS tyres.

[Mihai]

But is he as a team leader really unable to develop the car to the top? That may also explain, why Benetton was getting weaker and weaker during 1998-2001, when Fisi was their team leader.

What a crap conclusion! So Fisichella was to blame because the Playlife-badged old engines by Renault were getting outdated every year? In 2001, Renault had an experiment with a very flat engine and that was the cause for the team's poor results that year, especially earlier in the season. Fissi contributed a lot to the development of the car, eventually finishing on the podium in Belgium and qualifying very well in the last few races.


I think that the change to Bridgestone is Renault's biggest problem.

That'a a helluva lot more likely than the total non-sense conclusion written on top of this topic, that Renault's faulty development was and is caused by Fisichella.

[Mihai]

I have another theory about Flav keeping the interest of Renault's top management, but I'll share it to you later.

[Mark]

They did say on the commentary that last year the Michelins were basically made for Renault and everyone else (including McLaren) just had to make do with running on Renault's tyres (basically), which is why they struggled.

Now things are equalised out a bit more, maybe we are seeing a true picture this year?

But Renault has never been good at coping with the loss of a driver, just look at them after Schumacher left in 1996, they were hopeless for ages.

[Dazz9908]

This year start was always going to be about the tyres
Like "Who can handle best and make them last.
Interesting enough Bridgestone chose a construction from whic only Ferrari and a few back running teams had experience with, So no Surprises that Ferrari would Dominate in the way they have.

[ioan]

Interesting enough Bridgestone chose a construction from whic only Ferrari and a few back running teams had experience with, So no Surprises that Ferrari would Dominate in the way they have.

Any link to a quote that supports this theory of yours?

[V12]

Renault have been associated with Michelin since year dot, and cars with works Renault engines have only ever used Michelins or Goodyears until this season, while McLaren had a good relationship with Bridgestone 1998-2000 and only switched to Michelins for 2002, maybe with the pace of tyre development over the past 5 years that means absolutely nothing, just a guess, but it may be a cultural thing as well as technical. Still I think Renault are set to go through some teething pains similar to what happened to them (as Benetton) when Schuey left, so it's probably a combination of tyres and drivers.

[ArrowsFA1]

Morale won't make a difference regarding reliability if I might disturb your logics.
I said it might not have a direct effect on performance, but indirectly it has made a difference. Martin Whitmarsh agrees:

"The feeling in the team is massively positive at the moment...I believe the spirit, momentum and motivation in the organisation is higher than it has been for many years." source (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/57482)

[ioan]

I said it might not have a direct effect on performance, but indirectly it has made a difference. Martin Whitmarsh agrees:
source (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/57482)

Well for having the WDC in their team gave them some motivation after a winless season. But I still don't think that this is the cause of the car being better, remember that the car was designed way before FA got to see it.

Maybe Newey leaving gave them some room for more inspiration, freedom of thinking etc. Given the quality of the RBR and STR it might seems that he is past his time and was maybe the negative part in McLaren's design team.

[wedge]

Arrows, I think the confidence has come from the fact that McLaren have built a a quick and predictable car straight out of the box.

The '05 car started off with too much oversteer and last year's car understeered too much. With both cars the Mac boys were left scratching their heads at the start of the season understanding how to make the car more neutral.

Renault now look distraught because they have no idea on getting the best out of tyres. But confidence and enthusiasm will come in different ways and a team like Renault will come back fighting as the season progresses.

[Timber]

The reality is that both drivers are not Top drivers , you can thank Flavio for looking after his own interests .

[ArrowsFA1]

Arrows, I think the confidence has come from the fact that McLaren have built a a quick and predictable car straight out of the box.
It all helps :s mokin:

[jens]

Briatore has criticized Kovalainen, now it's Fisis turn...
http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070320094356.shtml

If Fisichella or Kovalainen do not perform
Renault could always give Piquet a try…
If the team is really going to think about replacements, then honestly I don't believe that Piquet Jr can do any better than GF or HK, especially as he has been in the team a lot less. (btw, in 2005 in GP2 Kovalainen 'destroyed' Piquet Jr...)

One more aspect. Somehow those teams, who have radically changed its colour theme - Renault and Honda - are now in trouble. Maybe we can create a new theory from here - connection between competitiveness and livery. :D

[Roamy]

well I forgot Renault has Zonta and they will test him for a complete day very shortly. I look for drivers changes at renault before year end