What is a "Liberal"?

[Rollo]

Being a student of economics, the classical definition of Liberalism generally means a position which agrees more with laissez-faire economics.
Social Liberalism on the other hand tends to look at social justice issues, human rights and an expansion of democracy.

However, the use of the word "liberal" on these forums appears to be used more as a pejorative, without any real handle on a fixed definition of what the word means other than "something or someone I disagree with". So then...

What then is a "Liberal"? and
Can you please define in what terms you are using it?

[anthonyvop]

In the US a Liberal is one who's political beliefs are based on the Left. Big, Gov, Huge Social Safety net, High Taxes, Political Correctness, restriction on speech and expression,,Class warfare, State before the individual...etc.

[ICWS]

In the US a Liberal is one who's political beliefs are based on the Left. Big, Gov, Huge Social Safety net, High Taxes, Political Correctness, restriction on speech and expression, Class warfare, State before the individual...etc.

Most left-wing/progressives and right-wing/conservatives are liberals in the classical sense, as both sides are generally committed to the principles of classical liberalism such as liberty of individuals and limited government.

[DexDexter]

Being a student of economics, the classical definition of Liberalism generally means a position which agrees more with laissez-faire economics.
Social Liberalism on the other hand tends to look at social justice issues, human rights and an expansion of democracy.

However, the use of the word "liberal" on these forums appears to be used more as a pejorative, without any real handle on a fixed definition of what the word means other than "something or someone I disagree with". So then...

What then is a "Liberal"? and
Can you please define in what terms you are using it?

For these few posters, the word European is a synonym for liberal. I'm quite conservative but in threads over here I've been accused of being liberal many times. So I guess it has a very subjective meaning.

[Bob Riebe]

Most left-wing/progressives and right-wing/conservatives are liberals in the classical sense, as both sides are generally committed to the principles of classical liberalism such as liberty of individuals and limited government.

In the U.S. you are horrendously wrong about the left-wing/progressives.

[ArrowsFA1]

What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."

JFK - September 1960
http://www.liberalparty.org/JFKLPAcceptance.html

[markabilly]

Yep, JFK. A classic liar of a politican.

People have forgotten, in their drooling over him, how he drug us off to war in Nam, got us so far stuck in the quicksand, there was no easy way to get out. They all target Nixon who with his "Great Society" (and despite being a Republican) but it was Nixon who started the massive welfare programs and got the country into massive debt.

LBJ managed to over run local governments by getting JFK's legislation passed that had been stuck under JFK. They forget JFK was responsible for the Bay of Pigs, and even worse, the Cuban Missile Crisis, where the world came within inches of all-out, world wide nuclear war.

There are those who credit him with the accomplishments of the "space race", but it was the program under Ike's presidency that put the USA on the moon, not JFK.

JFK's big accomplishment was he got killed, so everyone could think he was a great president, whereas all the signs pointed to him being a one-term loser.





What is a liberal vs conservative has changed over time, and there are only examples, but little definition. However, in the USA, liberal does not mean liberal as in freedom, except for certain areas (such as doing drugs, abortions and so forth); it more appropriately means hypocrite.

The Plessy decision of "seperate but equal" in 1889, was mandated by northern liberals, of all people. There was only one dissenter, who advanced a conservative view of simply looking to what the document said, rather than engaging in social liberal re-writing. Summarized, he said: the 14th amendment says "equal" it does not say anythng about "seperate but". Therefore, blacks are entitled to equal rights to do as anyone else could do, without any distinction.

Of course, that same dissenter judge was a red neck from the South who had owned a number of slaves until the South lost the war.

[anthonyvop]

People have forgotten, in their drooling over him, how he drug us off to war in Nam, got us so far stuck in the quicksand, there was no easy way to get out. They all target Nixon who with his "Great Society" (and despite being a Republican) but it was Nixon who started the massive welfare programs and got the country into massive debt.


The "Great Society" was a LBJ project not Nixon. Nixon was not a Conservative by any means but give credit where credit is due.

[ArrowsFA1]

Yep, JFK. A classic liar of a politican.
So you disagree with his comments regarding "liberal"?

[ArrowsFA1]

What is a liberal vs conservative has changed over time...in the USA, liberal does not mean liberal as in freedom, except for certain areas (such as doing drugs, abortions and so forth); it more appropriately means hypocrite.
Liberalism - from the Latin liberalis = "of freedom"

[ICWS]

In the U.S. you are horrendously wrong about the left-wing/progressives.

That's why I used the phrase "in the classical sense" when saying that about left-wingers and right-wingers. I realize progressives and conservatives in the U.S. today have distorted what the meaning of classical liberalism is.

[anthonyvop]

That's why I used the phrase "in the classical sense" when saying that about left-wingers and right-wingers. I realize progressives and conservatives in the U.S. today have distorted what the meaning of classical liberalism is.

Funny how the left has suddenly changed their name to "progressive" when in actually their policies are REgressive and been the status-quo for decades!

[anthonyvop]

Liberalism - from the Latin liberalis = "of freedom"

Which makes US "Liberals" the epitome of hypocrisy.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/education/ct-met-school-lunch-restrictions-041120110410,0,4567867.story

[Bob Riebe]

JFK - September 1960
http://www.liberalparty.org/JFKLPAcceptance.html

Today JFK would be considered more conservative than George Bush, either.

[ArrowsFA1]

Today JFK would be considered more conservative than George Bush, either.
I doubt that, but the the mere fact that the suggestion has been raised is more to do with the right in the US moving further to the right than anything to do with JFK's policies.

There was a time, from the outside at least, that there seemed little to distinguish the Democratic & Republican parties. A change in power from one party to the other rarely seemed to mean a seismic shift in foreign or domestic policy.

[markabilly]

So you disagree with his comments regarding "liberal"?

yes

[markabilly]

Liberalism - from the Latin liberalis = "of freedom"

true, but just saying it does not make it true.

the teabaggers are more "liberal" in that sense, than what are called "liberals".

Better word for who are "liberals" in the democratic party, would be hypocrites

For some of the hypocrites may try to preach the words, but can not live them.

[veeten]

and then, of course, there is Conservatism...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism

[gloomyDAY]

A "liberal" in the United States would be a person who disagrees with you, wants to tweak the political system, or seems weak.

[OFF-topic]I'm a conservative person when it comes to my values and disposition. I think I'm a person that's environmentally conscious, but for some bizarre reason that's seen as a "liberal" viewpoint. Americans tend to view people who want to preserve nature as the enemy. My sense is that I've always loved the outdoors and exploiting it for monetary schemes may at some point come back to bite us in the ass. Air pollution has become a problem in the state of Montana due to the explosion in oil excavation, but I remember coming back from Beijing to a smoggy LAX and actually being able to breathe. I don't think that the ends justify the means, and getting those results will end up causing more detrimental problems in the future.[/OFF-topic]

My favorite president is Theodore Roosevelt. I guess he would be considered a "liberal" by today's standard too!

[anthonyvop]

A "liberal" in the United States would be a person who disagrees with you, wants to tweak the political system, or seems weak.
Another major trait of the US Liberal is to call anyone who disagrees with them Intolerant, Ignorant, Racist, Fascist(Which is really silly) or Stupid. It comes from the fact that their position is usually indefensible.



My favorite president is Theodore Roosevelt. I guess he would be considered a "liberal" by today's standard too!

TR was considered Very Liberal by his time's standards as well.

[anthonyvop]

and then, of course, there is Conservatism...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism

Another case of Wikipedia's slanted & biased information.

[veeten]

Another case of Wikipedia's slanted & biased information.

and, of course, another example of you bringing nothing to the table of any substantial importance.
... and that news blurb you posted earlier doesn't count, so don't even try that.

[anthonyvop]

and, of course, another example of you bringing nothing to the table of any substantial importance.


Another major trait of the US Liberal is to call anyone who disagrees with them Intolerant, Ignorant, Racist, Fascist(Which is really silly) or Stupid. It comes from the fact that their position is usually indefensible.

See what I mean?



... and that news blurb you posted earlier doesn't count, so don't even try that.

It doesn't?

I was using it to point out the ridiculousness and borderline Fascism of the Nanny-State loving Liberal left. I guess you didn't get it.

[veeten]

See what I mean?




It doesn't?

I was using it to point out the ridiculousness and borderline Fascism of the Nanny-State loving Liberal left. I guess you didn't get it.
What's to get? I could've done the same thing with a story or byline from either the Washington Post, New York Times, Chicago Tribune, or any other newspaper, foreign or domestic.
Personally, I'd rather go for the hard stuff, but if you like to dance about in the ether of conservative self-love, be my guest.

Oh, by the way, Libertarian from start-to-finish, not some weak-a$$ conservative...

[markabilly]

I
There was a time, from the outside at least, that there seemed little to distinguish the Democratic & Republican parties. A change in power from one party to the other rarely seemed to mean a seismic shift in foreign or domestic policy.

wake up, dude. The last election was proof of that. Obama mouthed much "liberal democratic philiosophy" but I watched where the money came from, and it came from the fat cats from Wall Street. Indeed while McCAin and Obama were both in congress, the contributions from the wall street bankers, et al, to Obama swamped McCain.

The only difference in their economic advisors were the names.

And now we have Libya, where Obama rapes the constitution to go to war, even over the outraged cries from his own bunch of democrats, something that neither of the Bush bunch ever did.

[gloomyDAY]

And now we have Libya, where Obama rapes the constitution to go to war, even over the outraged cries from his own bunch of democrats, something that neither of the Bush bunch ever did.Only a liberal would make such a ridiculous comment. Liberal!

Hmm...unPARTRIOTIC Act and warrantless wiretapping comes to mind.

[anthonyvop]

What's to get? I could've done the same thing with a story or byline from either the Washington Post, New York Times, Chicago Tribune, or any other newspaper, foreign or domestic.
Personally, I'd rather go for the hard stuff, but if you like to dance about in the ether of conservative self-love, be my guest.

Oh, by the way, Libertarian from start-to-finish, not some weak-a$$ conservative...


Libertarian huh? Hmmmm....Then why defend the epitome of anti-libertarianism?

BTW if you have read any of my posts you would see my true Libertarian/Objectivist beliefs. Not a candie-ass, Hippie Libertarian.

[ArrowsFA1]

Not a candie-ass, Hippie Libertarian.
It's funny. The use of "liberal" as a term to be mocked, ridiculed and lumped in with very different views (Communism, Marxism etc) does seem to stem from the 60's and appears to be a reaction to ideas and events of that time. It's as if conservatives, who were too conservative to be a part of the times, feel left out somehow :p

I'm reminded of lines from Field of Dreams (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097351/) in the school hall where there's a debate going on about a particular book which some parents want to ban:

Annie Kinsella: Terence Mann was a voice of reason during a time of great madness. Where others were chanting, "Burn, baby burn", he was talking about love and peace and prosperity. He coined the phrase, "Make love, not war". I cherished every one of his books, and I dearly wish he had written some more. And if you experienced even a little bit of the sixties, you would feel the same way, too.
Beulah: [indignantly] I experienced the sixties.
Annie Kinsella: No, I think you had two fifties and moved right into the seventies.

[markabilly]

Only a liberal would make such a ridiculous comment. Liberal!

Hmm...unPARTRIOTIC Act and warrantless wiretapping comes to mind.

and who has been very quietly continuing with those programs???????

Guess who!!!


but there you go with those personal insults. That is okay, just as long as you do not be calling me British or Englander.....if you do that, i will hunt you down and make you watch hours and hours of pelosi being interviewed.....a real live liberal from Kalifornica


My fav, being the "word"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSko2ixEB8U&feature=related

or where she tries to justify sending people to JAIL for not buying health insurance..a true liberal at work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuZ_1CuTUdI&feature=related


or "if you want" you should "quit your job and be a musician, develope your talent, cause we will support you", including health care:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmL37TcBtpY&feature=related


and then others......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6PU0Oq0ysA&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93Dww4hNBTs&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w_ANNGhgfQ&feature=related


and forget not, her greatest hits...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpBnO5ICoN8&feature=related


Remember as speaker of the house, that means she is right behind behind the VP, to be president...

[markabilly]

It's funny. The use of "liberal" as a term to be mocked, ridiculed and lumped in with very different views (Communism, Marxism etc) does seem to stem from the 60's and appears to be a reaction to ideas and events of that time. It's as if conservatives, who were too conservative to be a part of the times, feel left out somehow :p

I'm reminded of lines from Field of Dreams (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097351/) in the school hall where there's a debate going on about a particular book which some parents want to ban:
You mean JD Salinger?

[ArrowsFA1]

You mean JD Salinger?
WP Kinsella's novel "Shoeless Joe", on which Field of Dreams was based, did include JD Salinger, however the film could not use his name and therefore the Salinger character played by James Earl Jones was re-named Terrence Mann.

[Bob Riebe]

[quote="ArrowsFA1"]It's funny. The use of "liberal" as a term to be mocked, ridiculed and lumped in with very different views (Communism, Marxism etc) does seem to stem from the 60's and appears to be a reaction to ideas and events of that time. It's as if conservatives, who were too conservative to be a part of the times, feel left out somehow :p [quote]

You mean such as liberals banning religious organizations from using public buildings, despite the Constitution saying that free worship shall not be infringed.
Liberals banning military recruiters from colleges.
Liberals separating races into categories, such as oreintals not qualifying for gov. monies negros recievedy gov. ed. authorities in Minn. They were considered in the same category as causcasion due to their not being dumb enough for gov. hand-outs.
Divide and separate, the liberal war cry.

Pot calling the kettle black.

[ArrowsFA1]

Pot calling the kettle black.
In what way exactly :confused:

I should, I suppose, take your word about the examples of actions by "liberals" as you have provided no links. However it is difficult to get away from the view that the term "liberal" is very generally and inaccurately used to lump together policies & people which you and others oppose.

[Bob Riebe]

It's funny. The use of "liberal" as a term to be mocked, ridiculed and lumped in with very different views (Communism, Marxism etc) does seem to stem from the 60's and appears to be a reaction to ideas and events of that time. It's as if conservatives, who were too conservative to be a part of the times, feel left out somehow
Here is your quote the reasons listed are part of why conservatives want no part of such crap.
Part of what times?
The wonderful generation that gave us kids who are dumb as a pail of rocks?
Oh gee such progressive wonders.
The millions who died under Soviet rules will be glad they they were merely a part of the times.

[Rudy Tamasz]

I understand what times are being discussed and I can even relate to those despite the fact that I was born in 1974. E.g. music was great and I can subscribe under Arrows' avatar. That said the generation of 60s had hard time translating their lofty expectations into tangible results. Some ended up as burnt out dreamers (my parents to an extent), some as complacent jerks (Clinton, Gore, Joschka Fischer etc.). The latter bunch very skillfully took advantage of the accomplishments of the post-WWII generation and then generously shifted the burden of paying for their excesses to the next generation (Xers).

[Retro Formula 1]

I like to think Liberal thinking takes the best parts of the Left and Right political spectrum in a sort of happy meadium.

Solid but sustainable economic growth. A good standard of health care and education but with the ability to contribute additional resourse for enhanced service. Freedom of will and expression as long as it doesn't impinge on other peoples rights.

I think it's fair to say that the Liberal core values are still there in this Country but Politicians struggle with the courage to stick to them without pandering to voters at every opportunity. I salute the Liberals for teaming with the Conservatives to bring a better rounded Government in these dangerous times but the backlash they are getting is partly of their own doing. For example, the only reason they promised and swore about Tuition fees is because they knew they didn't have a cat in hells chance of getting in before the election. I would have thought that Liberal values hold that a good standard of Education should be availiable to all until at School leaving age and then it's a personal choice. OK, with some subsidy for University but ultimatly a free choice for the individual and not a State provided jolly.

If the Liberals stuck to their principles, I think we would have a much fairer system of Government in the UK and a much stronger powerbase of voters.

Then there's Eddie Izzards definition:




Politically, I am a radical liberal, that is my position. I would be a liberal, but the image of a liberal is sort of – because left and right have been in power for a long time in Britain, the image of a liberal is one of, “Oh… I’m not sure, and you’re…? Oh, really? And you…? Oh, really? I’m on the fence here…” But not for me, I am passionate about free health service for all, that’s a world idea, I think that’s very groovy, but also, if you have an idea, in small businesses or businesses don’t have to be sort of rape and pillaging things; that can be groovy. “Revolutionary liberal,” that sounds better to me, I think, storm the House of Parliament, kick the f**king doors in, get in there and say, “Look, we’ll pay for the damage.” Have a revolution, just budget for it, yeah? You know..

[ArrowsFA1]

The wonderful generation that gave us kids who are dumb as a pail of rocks?
Oh gee such progressive wonders.
So you blame the 60's generation for the ills of the world today as you see them?

[Bob Riebe]

So you blame the 60's generation for the ills of the world today as you see them?Liberals and especially Rinos.

[BDunnell]

I salute the Liberals for teaming with the Conservatives to bring a better rounded Government in these dangerous times but the backlash they are getting is partly of their own doing. For example, the only reason they promised and swore about Tuition fees is because they knew they didn't have a cat in hells chance of getting in before the election.

That is simply factually untrue.

[BDunnell]

BTW if you have read any of my posts you would see my true Libertarian/Objectivist beliefs. Not a candie-ass, Hippie Libertarian.

Not what I see when I read any of your posts, I must say.

[anthonyvop]

Not what I see when I read any of your posts, I must say.

Well we all have seen many examples of your political and general life inexperience.

[BDunnell]

We should all organise a BBQ, it looks like we'd all get along.

Nah. Someone would be shot.

[BDunnell]

Sounds like a great evening in prospect. Can't wait.

[Retro Formula 1]

That is simply factually untrue.

That is an opinion. If you have a differing opinion, then lets have it but excuse me if I choose not to accept your statement as fact on your say so.

[BDunnell]

That is an opinion. If you have a differing opinion, then lets have it but excuse me if I choose not to accept your statement as fact on your say so.

Your statement was that the Liberal Democrats only campaigned to scrap tuition fees in the knowledge that they would never have to implement the policy. As I am assuming that you did not work for a Liberal Democrat MP who was on the party's Treasury team, in which the policy was discussed and costed, I would suggest that my assertion is more than merely an opinion, but based in fact and personal knowledge of the matter.

[Retro Formula 1]

I suggest a mere administrator with his nose stuck up some Liberal MP's ass might not be privy to the inner mascinations of the Liberal party ;)

Also, the fact that you mention your dealings with said MP on a public forum rather suggests you have an inflated opinion of your own importance in the proceedings ;) Either that, or no scruples.

[Mark]

Nick Clegg and the Liberal Democrats have shown themselves - in my view - to be out and out liars just because of this one issue, and should never be trusted again.

[BDunnell]

I suggest a mere administrator with his nose stuck up some Liberal MP's ass might not be privy to the inner mascinations of the Liberal party ;)

Also, the fact that you mention your dealings with said MP on a public forum rather suggests you have an inflated opinion of your own importance in the proceedings ;) Either that, or no scruples.

With respect, there is no need for such a response. You asked me the question, so what was I supposed to do? Ignore it? Give you an untrue answer?

[BDunnell]

Nick Clegg and the Liberal Democrats have shown themselves - in my view - to be out and out liars just because of this one issue, and should never be trusted again.

I agree completely, and have, with regret, severed all ties with the party.

[markabilly]

Nah. Someone would be shot.

since the right wing nut cases are the ones with the guns, all i can say is,



we might miss you.......




but if we do, i am sure we will just reload and later send flowers :(

[markabilly]

Or I'd end up having to banish everybody with my IQ.. lol

Don't worry, I can quarantee we will NOT miss you :s mokin:

[Big Ben]

From what I've seen nothing related to what I learnt in school.