R/Bull and M Webber.

[scaliwag]

I believe the Web is being royally shafted by red bull, not only because Horner has been undermining him with references to the possibility of signing Hamilton, but more importantly Web's car seems to have constant problems during a race.

Today, the Vet's car had Kers at the start, Web's failed at the start, after Vet pushed out to a decent lead he radioed in asking if he should use his Kers the answer Negative-negative-negative (Why? it was working wasn't it?) after all up until that radio message he didn't complain it wasn't working.

At that point all the other teams informed their drivers that R/B' had a KERS failure, that was of course until Hamilton was closing on Vet and R/B needed to change Vets tyres, at that point Vets Kers miraculously began to function again, and he put in several fast laps changed tyres and got back out still in the lead, whilst Web was circulating with over 30 kilos of useless extra weight.

This is the second race that I have smelt a rat with regard to R/B and Web, if similar things just seem to happen again in China it will confirm it my worst suspicions, and that is R/B are giving preference to Vet, to such an extent they are willing to actively sabotage Web's race.

PS I am quite aware I will be accused of being a conspiracy theorist, my answer is just look at the facts, then watch the post race interview with Web on the BBC.

Regards scaliwag.

[F1boat]

It is resembling the eerie problems which sometimes Barrichello had in Ferrari. But is it and, in the case of RB, was it just an ill fortune or hint of something more sinister? The truth is that we'll never know.

[jens]

Huh, possibility of signing Hamilton? :p : That was just when McLaren was struggling in winter tests and journalists started asking questions. So Horner answers to them and makes some fun. Now to reality - Hamilton will stay in McLaren for 2012, no question.

When Webber had zero car failures last year at RBR, people were still complaining about "favouring". Whatever is happening, nothing will silence the sceptics. All in all - RBR may concentrate more on Vettel, but suggestions of sabotage are on most occasions indeed nothing more than conspiracy theories. There is WCC to play for as well. And in terms of pace Vettel would have beaten Webber also without those car problems, so what's the benefit?

[scaliwag]

It is resembling the eerie problems which sometimes Barrichello had in Ferrari. But is it and, in the case of RB, was it just an ill fortune or hint of something more sinister? The truth is that we'll never know.


F, cant disagree with your analysis, the only difference I can see is that at Ferrari they were quite open about their preference of a first and second driver, however R/B have always insisted they give equal treatment, and equal machinery to both drivers, I believe they did last year, however my feeling is that has changed this year.

BTW I understand Web was resigned for one year only, whilst Vet has resigned for several years, if true why would that be?

Regards scaliwag

[Malbec]

F, cant disagree with your analysis, the only difference I can see is that at Ferrari they were quite open about their preference of a first and second driver, however R/B have always insisted they give equal treatment, and equal machinery to both drivers, I believe they did last year, however my feeling is that has changed this year.

BTW I understand Web was resigned for one year only, whilst Vet has resigned for several years, if true why would that be?

Regards scaliwag

So do you think that with McLaren snapping at their heels in terms of raw pace yet managing to conserve their tyres better Red Bull would try to slow Webber and sacrifice their WCC to make some kind of point? How many millions of dollars do you think are involved?

Webber has had problems especially conserving his tyres. He also had a suspension problem in Oz. Over more races he'll do better. There is no conspiracy.

[scaliwag]

Huh, possibility of signing Hamilton? :p : That was just when McLaren was struggling in winter tests and journalists started asking questions. So Horner answers to them and makes some fun. Now to reality - Hamilton will stay in McLaren for 2012, no question.

When Webber had zero car failures last year at RBR, people were still complaining about "favouring". Whatever is happening, nothing will silence the sceptics. All in all - RBR may concentrate more on Vettel, but suggestions of sabotage are on most occasions indeed nothing more than conspiracy theories. There is WCC to play for as well. And in terms of pace Vettel would have beaten Webber also without those car problems, so what's the benefit?

Jens, thanks for the reply, however true to form you don't refute my post with any facts, you just use the strawman reply.

people were still complaining about "favouring". Whatever is happening, nothing will silence the sceptics. All in all - RBR may concentrate more on Vettel, but suggestions of sabotage are on most occasions indeed nothing more than conspiracy

Ok who were the people complaining about "favoring"? and who are the skeptics you enter into your post? please give us a link.


And in terms of pace Vettel would have beaten Webber also without those car problems, so what's the benefit?

Ok, What do you base that statement on, please give us a link, because that statement is nothing more than supposition on your part, if the Web had the same machinery as Vet we could have witnessed a race between equals, let the best man win, but we didn't because Web was loaded with 30 extra kilos of useless of weight.

Regards scaliwag

[jens]

People complaining about favouring can be found from various threads during 2010, as you probably were around at that time.

Okay, I suppose Vettel would have beaten Webber, because firstly he outqualified him (this does certainly make things easier) and also Webber seems harder on those vastly deteriorating tyres, having made one more pitstop than Vettel both in Australia and Malaysia.

What kind of facts would you like? Any kind of sabotaging theory is far from facts anyway.

As for the lengths of contracts - well, Vettel is much younger and has many more years left in him. Button got also longer contracts than Barrichello in Honda. Webber got a 2-year-deal for 2007, while DC got only a 1-y-deal IIRC. And so on. Signing up Webber until the end of 2014 like they have done with Vettel wouldn't make much sense at this moment.

[BDunnell]

Jens, thanks for the reply, however true to form you don't refute my post with any facts, you just use the strawman reply.

Where are the facts in a conspiracy theory?

[Daniel]

2 races in and we're already saying that Webber is being shafted by RB, if after 2 races the pendulum swings around will we be saying that Vettel is being shafted?

Wake me when it's 3 or 4 races to go.......

[BDunnell]

2 races in and we're already saying that Webber is being shafted by RB, if after 2 races the pendulum swings around will we be saying that Vettel is being shafted?

Wake me when it's 3 or 4 races to go.......

Exactly. I have no doubt that Vettel better represents the sort of driver Red Bull as a company would rather see winning in one of its cars, and that this manifests itself in certain ways, but some of the accusations seem far of the mark.

[Daniel]

Exactly. I have no doubt that Vettel better represents the sort of driver Red Bull as a company would rather see winning in one of its cars, and that this manifests itself in certain ways, but some of the accusations seem far of the mark.

Maybe these people subscribe to the American ideals of "freedom" and "rights", perhaps Webber has the right to win, regardless of how well he performs on the weekend?

[Ari]

Either two races of bad luck or theres something smelly going on.

Soon the team will be able to run with Vettel as he's leading the points so comfortably. Well orchestrated.

If this happens again in China the it's tin foil hat time.

I just want to see my driver given the same chance as his team mate and two races in it still hasn't happened. Be it by bad luck or something more than that I don't know, but it's not good enough for a professional outfit to have such issues.

Webber was given a car with quali and mixed it..... a fantastic and close quali for all involved. Pity the race was left lout for one driver. But the team still bags a handful of WCC points.

Maybe with Macca so close this race RBR may feel they really need two car in the next race.

Oops, I said id save my tin foil hat for China didn't I? :)

[wedge]

With Seb's pace I get the impression Webbo is a bit like Damon Hill in his last year in F1: a bit languid, retirement running through his mind

[RJL25]

Webber was on the same lap time as Seb in qualifying untill the last corner when Webber admited he fluffed the exit which cost him the 2 tenths.

In the race, the start was **** which was at least 50% kers fault, I can accept his getaway wasn't great which may have cost him a position or two, but not 7! But once he got underway, I thought he drove an excellent race and clearly the car was working well other then the kers problem.

[Ari]

Helmut Marko said Webber had Kers. Then Webber said he didn't. Then Marko said well maybe he didnt, but can we go to the next question please.

Further into the race they told Seb not to use his Kers..... and a lap later they noted on the BBC that he was using Kers. Either they were trying to play up the McLaren to get them to chase or were trying to play "oh yeah, well both cars had Kers problems.... Vettel just handled it better".

The whole bloody thing stinks if you ask me. I'm starting to think they're trying to tarnish Mark so he doesn't get a drive at McLaren or Ferrari next if seats become available.

[Ari]

With Seb's pace I get the impression Webbo is a bit like Damon Hill in his last year in F1: a bit languid, retirement running through his mind

Explain.... I would LOVE to hear it.

[Tumbo]

BTW I understand Web was resigned for one year only, whilst Vet has resigned for several years, if true why would that be?


Webber has been signing 1 yr contracts w/ RB for a number of yrs now - it is his preference as he can stay in a competitive car right until when he decides to retire.

As for all the 'tin foil, RB damaging their driver's opportunities' well seems like clutching at straws really. Australian's love MW.....well most of us seem to - i've never been a fan but despite that - fact remains that MW pushes his machinery too hard, you can say what you want but given the number of mechanical failures he has had over the last what 9 seasons and w/ 3 different manufacturers (well 2 really since Jag and RB have the same background) that isn't all 'bad luck' or conspiracy theorist.

And Vettel didn't ask about using the KERS - he asked them to repeat the msg which was radioed (at least get the facts correct for a conspiracy theory) to which it was confirmed negative - RB have had issues w/ their KERS system all summer and so I doubt that they would be putting a win at risk by getting him to not use it - why? extra weight, slower car.....

RB want to win both titles again and the best way of achieving that is to have both cars finishing up the front. Webber just doesn't have the talent or speed or Vettel and so struggles to match him - next ppl will say that Webber was given dodgy rear tyres in Korea last yr to prevent him from staying in the title fight :rolleyes:

[airshifter]

RB want to win both titles again and the best way of achieving that is to have both cars finishing up the front. Webber just doesn't have the talent or speed or Vettel and so struggles to match him - next ppl will say that Webber was given dodgy rear tyres in Korea last yr to prevent him from staying in the title fight :rolleyes:

C'mon Aussie, I got some tin foil for your hat!

Mark just isn't performing IMO, and it isn't the first time. He can impress at times, but at other times he just doesn't have it in him. Actually today he had a very good day when you factor in the positions he lost on the start due to KERS. Sebastian and a couple others had great days.

Great > Good

[Ari]

Webber has been signing 1 yr contracts w/ RB for a number of yrs now - it is his preference as he can stay in a competitive car right until when he decides to retire.

As for all the 'tin foil, RB damaging their driver's opportunities' well seems like clutching at straws really. Australian's love MW.....well most of us seem to - i've never been a fan but despite that - fact remains that MW pushes his machinery too hard, you can say what you want but given the number of mechanical failures he has had over the last what 9 seasons and w/ 3 different manufacturers (well 2 really since Jag and RB have the same background) that isn't all 'bad luck' or conspiracy theorist.

And Vettel didn't ask about using the KERS - he asked them to repeat the msg which was radioed (at least get the facts correct for a conspiracy theory) to which it was confirmed negative - RB have had issues w/ their KERS system all summer and so I doubt that they would be putting a win at risk by getting him to not use it - why? extra weight, slower car.....

RB want to win both titles again and the best way of achieving that is to have both cars finishing up the front. Webber just doesn't have the talent or speed or Vettel and so struggles to match him - next ppl will say that Webber was given dodgy rear tyres in Korea last yr to prevent him from staying in the title fight :rolleyes:

Next people will say that the Piquet Junior crash wasn't an accident and he did it on purpose. :rolleyes:

[Ari]

C'mon Aussie, I got some tin foil for your hat!

Mark just isn't performing IMO, and it isn't the first time. He can impress at times, but at other times he just doesn't have it in him. Actually today he had a very good day when you factor in the positions he lost on the start due to KERS. Sebastian and a couple others had great days.

Great > Good

So because his Kers didn't work on the start he isn't as good as Seb? Even though there was a couple tenths between them in what was a great quali session.

Honestly, if Sebs car had no Kers off the start he would have DNF'd the race imo. Boy has little race craft. Can run away at the front but can he race from behind? Webber cam from 10th to 4th and without Kers and DRS at the end almost snuck a podium.

Btw I consider working from 10th to 4th in a non-Kers car better than running out front all day with nothing to do. Just my opinion. So what you call good I call Great.

I think it's harsh saying that Webber isn't performing when so far this year the team have given him a car in Australia which had issues and then a start in Malaysia without Kers.

I would expect a LOT more insight and dissection from people on a Formula 1 forum.

[Ari]

By the way, all I want is a clean fight between the two guys in the best car and RBR won't let it happen. Be it by accident or otherwise......

[scaliwag]

By the way, all I want is a clean fight between the two guys in the best car and RBR won't let it happen. Be it by accident or otherwise......

Ari, I cant disagree with any of your post's, lets see what happens in china, if the Web gets more troubles, I'd be inclined to say the slight whiff of malfeasance directed at the Web is most definitely becoming a stink.

Regards scaliwag

[airshifter]

So because his Kers didn't work on the start he isn't as good as Seb? Even though there was a couple tenths between them in what was a great quali session.

Honestly, if Sebs car had no Kers off the start he would have DNF'd the race imo. Boy has little race craft. Can run away at the front but can he race from behind? Webber cam from 10th to 4th and without Kers and DRS at the end almost snuck a podium.

Btw I consider working from 10th to 4th in a non-Kers car better than running out front all day with nothing to do. Just my opinion. So what you call good I call Great.

I think it's harsh saying that Webber isn't performing when so far this year the team have given him a car in Australia which had issues and then a start in Malaysia without Kers.

I would expect a LOT more insight and dissection from people on a Formula 1 forum.

You are missing my point. I'm saying Mark had a good race considering no KERS from the start. Sebs KERS went off later in the race, but after he had enough time in hand to stay in the lead. Does anyone really think if the team was going to play favorites they would rather Mark be down in the field? They would simply disable KERS or something if he was outpacing Vettel if they wanted to do that, not handicap Mark from the time the lights went out.

My point with Mark not performing is that he often starts the season poorly. Just when I was about to write him off last year he started doing much better.

[RJL25]

The problem is not so much that the team is against Mark, the problem is that Helmut Marko and Webber HATE each other, like properly hate, so Helmut is always happy to try and make the media believe that there are no problems with Marks's car, like saying that he did indeed have kers off the start, when clearly he didn't, and publically blaming webber for the turkey clash, even though every other person who knows anything about F1 was saying it was clearly Vettel's fault.

Thats the issue here, and thats whats feeding the conspiracy theorists, its not Horner, he and Mark actually get on well together and co-own a junior team together, and the rest of the team get on well with Mark too, not necessarily more so or less so then with Vettel, fairly equally I think, Newey likes both of his drivers, its 100% Helmut Marko that causes the tensions and the problems and creates an easy atmosphere for people to think that there are games at play, whether there actually is or not.

[markabilly]

In this day of advanced tech, there are other ways to make a team mate the number two without being obvious.

Each driver has their own style, and simply tailor the car for one, rather than the other.

Ball game over.



As I said at the start of last year, if it is a question of Mark vs. Vettel, well, it will be vettel who wins. it took until the last race of the season to prove that. This year they will be taking no chances.

But Vettel is an excellent driver, and given what he did in winning his first racce at Monza, clearly a boy with special talent.

[Mia 01]

In this day of advanced tech, there are other ways to make a team mate the number two without being obvious.

Each driver has their own style, and simply tailor the car for one, rather than the other.

Ball game over.



As I said at the start of last year, if it is a question of Mark vs. Vettel, well, it will be vettel who wins. it took until the last race of the season to prove that. This year they will be taking no chances.

But Vettel is an excellent driver, and given what he did in winning his first racce at Monza, clearly a boy with special talent.

Ahhh, now I better understand the situaion in MacLaren and Ferrari.

[Dave B]

I believe the Web is being royally shafted by red bull etc etc etc etc etc etc etc...

PS I am quite aware I will be accused of being a conspiracy theorist, my answer is just look at the facts, then watch the post race interview with Web on the BBC.

Regards scaliwag.
Or, and forgive me if this sounds controversial, maybe Vettel is a better driver than Webber. It pains me to admit it, because I'm a huge admirer of Mark, but Vettel is something else. Factor in the confidence that winning a championship brings and it's clear that he's going to be tough to beat this year, especially in an indentical car.

[RJL25]

In this day and age, its completely normal for a car to suit one team mate more then the other, if you try and make the car suit both team mates equally you end up compromising the design of the car, and therefore lose performance. So, its normal for a car to suit one driver more then the other, and the team will always at some level pick one driver over the other in terms of who they will make the car suit more.

So while Webber is not officially the number 2 in the team, in a developmental sense, if Webber and Vettel ask for completely different things from the car, they will always go in Vettel's direction over Webber.

This is not just because of age, but also because Webbers car will ALWAYS be compromised anyway because he is physically so much bigger then Seb and therefore the weight distribution of his car can never ever be as good as the weight distribution in Vettels car, simply because they have more weight to package in Vettels car because of his lower weight. So if Webbers car is compromised anyway, then they may as well go with Vettels direction

[wedge]

Explain.... I would LOVE to hear it.

It's just from the body language. Languid, tired, not particularly upbeat. No different to after quali in Abu Dhabi last year.

Possibly lacking motivation knowing that Seb is Golden Boy.

All circumstancial I know.

Note - I do have pleasure in people proving their critics wrong like Massa did in 2009

[scaliwag]

Or, and forgive me if this sounds controversial, maybe Vettel is a better driver than Webber. It pains me to admit it, because I'm a huge admirer of Mark, but Vettel is something else. Factor in the confidence that winning a championship brings and it's clear that he's going to be tough to beat this year, especially in an indentical car.

Dave B.
Let us not get on cross purposes here, I've never indicated a preference for one driver over the other at R/Bull, it maybe that the Vet is a faster driver than the Web, my contention is the only way to find out who is the fastest is for both drivers to have identical mechanical cars, and so far this season it would appear the Vet's car is running perfectly on race day, and the Web's car seems to have race day problems.

Regards scaliwag.

[Ari]

Ari, I cant disagree with any of your post's, lets see what happens in china, if the Web gets more troubles, I'd be inclined to say the slight whiff of malfeasance directed at the Web is most definitely becoming a stink.

Regards scaliwag

Agree. We've only had two rounds this season so far and I'm willing to admit I've been pretty one-eyed this past week or two.... so sorry for that guys. As the dust settles I think I can see that in F1 things don't always go your way. Sometime though, we just get a little emotional out the time and it all blurts out. Well, we can't hide passion!

Let's hope in China we can see the two Red Bull cars fighting it out together. :)

[Ari]

Or, and forgive me if this sounds controversial, maybe Vettel is a better driver than Webber. It pains me to admit it, because I'm a huge admirer of Mark, but Vettel is something else. Factor in the confidence that winning a championship brings and it's clear that he's going to be tough to beat this year, especially in an indentical car.

Seb did put in an inhuman effort in Abu Dhabi to win the whole thing and you've gotta be impressed with that!

I believe Seb is a tenth or two quicker in quali but I've always been on the opinion Mark is a better racer. Seb, however, seems to be out in front and when he gets out in front he's almost impossible to beat.

For me the question is how Seb would have gone working his way through the field at Malaysia like Mark did? But, that didn't happen so not much can be discussed there.

As you said though, Seb is an incredible driver.... something else. The fact Webber kept him honest for so much of last year speaks volumes in itself.

[Big Ben]

Seb did put in an inhuman effort in Abu Dhabi to win the whole thing and you've gotta be impressed with that!


Let's not get carried away. He won the race in the best car. That's what he did... the rest of the circumstances were out of his control... it just happened that everything went his way. It was regular effort :p :

[Big Ben]

especially in an indentical car.

why especially in an identical car? the car being the best why would it be easier to beat him in a worse car?

[Big Ben]

Ferrari copy things from the RBR car while RBR copy Ferrari's team strategy :laugh: . It's how things work

[Dave B]

why especially in an identical car? the car being the best why would it be easier to beat him in a worse car?

Becuase if Red Bull improve Webber's car then by default they also improve Vettel's (all conspiracy theories aside :p ). A rival team, on the other hand, stands a chance of leapfrogging RBR with their improvements.

[dom bom]

I wonder why R/B signed a renewal of webber's 2011 contract.
They had meny choices at the time.

[Garry Walker]

I am pretty sure there will be some problems for Webber this weekend too, possibly next race weekend too. And then, the gap will be big between Webber and The Chosen One and Helmut "jerk" Marko will tug off furiously while saying they need to concentrate on Vettel now.

[markabilly]

don't know how many times I have to say it: Car set up for a particular driver is make or break. PERIOD. Most misleading now is to compare two team mates.

If RB wishes, they can so subtley set up the cars, even design them, to give one driver a clear advantage over the other without anyone but the engineers who actually did who would be in the "know"

There was a time, when two team mates driving identical cars, you and everyone else could tell who was the superior driver. But now, that is not longer the case.

Example?? Anyone care to remeber Rubens when he drove for Brawn? Until he got the set up he wanted, Mr. Button smoked him. Bad. Poor ole rubino, he never had a chance. Time to retire for good.

A few changes (which I am sure Ioan could explain much better than me) such as rear barkes and some stuff so minor, then suddenly Rubens was smoking Button for a few races. People were saying, gee Button has lost his talent. Slipped off the deep end. My oh my, what to do????

well Button still won the WDC, but my point was that it was all about car set up suited to the driver, not the drivers driving identical cars.

With "identical cars", it may well be that one car is very well suited to one particular driver over the other. But who is the better driver? If you had access to all the data and spent months working with both, you might have an idea. But as fans, we never will.

Vettel is talented, and that rain drive at Monza for his first victory showed it.

So vettel better than webber?? I dunno, but my suspicion is given whatever is required to drive this year's RB in its current set up, I reckon so.

The only way that will change, is if webber gets his car better set up to his particular qualities of his talent. :dozey:

But committ acts of bad behavior towards Webber, where all the world can see it? That should be completely unnecesssary, despite some of the stuff of last year., if RB wants webber to run behind Vettel without the world understanding what is going on.




Thus endth my fing f1ing rant for this day of our lord, 14th of April, in the year of 2011.

[RJL25]

Yep, what he said ^^

[ArrowsFA1]

"It's been a great start particularly for Sebastian," Horner told BBC Radio 5 Live during first practice.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/13090220.stm

On the surface of it a perfectly true comment but I do get the sense that we could be watching Mansell & Patrese 1992 all over again.

[Big Ben]

Becuase if Red Bull improve Webber's car then by default they also improve Vettel's (all conspiracy theories aside :p ). A rival team, on the other hand, stands a chance of leapfrogging RBR with their improvements.

I understand what you are saying.

Whatever the means, and I don't usually care much for conspiracy theories, I think RBR has put Webber in his place (that being 2nd). It started last year... in the last few races all of a sudden couldn't even come close to his team mate. I think SV is better, however I don't think he's that much better.

[RJL25]

I understand what you are saying.

Whatever the means, and I don't usually care much for conspiracy theories, I think RBR has put Webber in his place (that being 2nd). It started last year... in the last few races all of a sudden couldn't even come close to his team mate. I think SV is better, however I don't think he's that much better.

Yeah, I'll go along with that actually. Seb was usually the quicker guy in qualifying all last year, but only ever by a tenth or two, but then when things started to come down to the wire last season, all of a sudden in the last 3 race meetings Webber couldn't get within half a second of him, and couldn't even get within a second of him at Yas Marina.

Are we to believe that Webber suddenly lost half a seconds worth of ability in the last 3 races of the season? I dunno somehow...

[555-04Q2]

don't know how many times I have to say it: Car set up for a particular driver is make or break. PERIOD. Most misleading now is to compare two team mates.

If RB wishes, they can so subtley set up the cars, even design them, to give one driver a clear advantage over the other without anyone but the engineers who actually did who would be in the "know"

There was a time, when two team mates driving identical cars, you and everyone else could tell who was the superior driver. But now, that is not longer the case.

Example?? Anyone care to remeber Rubens when he drove for Brawn? Until he got the set up he wanted, Mr. Button smoked him. Bad. Poor ole rubino, he never had a chance. Time to retire for good.

A few changes (which I am sure Ioan could explain much better than me) such as rear barkes and some stuff so minor, then suddenly Rubens was smoking Button for a few races. People were saying, gee Button has lost his talent. Slipped off the deep end. My oh my, what to do????

well Button still won the WDC, but my point was that it was all about car set up suited to the driver, not the drivers driving identical cars.

With "identical cars", it may well be that one car is very well suited to one particular driver over the other. But who is the better driver? If you had access to all the data and spent months working with both, you might have an idea. But as fans, we never will.

Vettel is talented, and that rain drive at Monza for his first victory showed it.

So vettel better than webber?? I dunno, but my suspicion is given whatever is required to drive this year's RB in its current set up, I reckon so.

The only way that will change, is if webber gets his car better set up to his particular qualities of his talent. :dozey:

But committ acts of bad behavior towards Webber, where all the world can see it? That should be completely unnecesssary, despite some of the stuff of last year., if RB wants webber to run behind Vettel without the world understanding what is going on.




Thus endth my fing f1ing rant for this day of our lord, 14th of April, in the year of 2011.

100% :up:

[Garry Walker]

I am pretty sure there will be some problems for Webber this weekend too, possibly next race weekend too. And then, the gap will be big between Webber and The Chosen One and Helmut "jerk" Marko will tug off furiously while saying they need to concentrate on Vettel now.

Well, I must be an oracle.
KERS problems for Webbo in FP3, he didnt get almost any laps. Probably wont be able to use KERS in qualy either. Good work Christian, Good work Helmut.
The Chosen one must be protected.

[truefan72]

well the team just screwed him in Q1

they knew they did not have kers and still put him out with the harder tyres.

if they had put him on the softs he would have easily made Q2

I have no doubt that RBR have it in for Webber

[Garry Walker]

well the team just screwed him in Q1

they knew they did not have kers and still put him out with the harder tyres.

if they had put him on the softs he would have easily made Q2

I have no doubt that RBR have it in for Webber

Idiot Vettel fans will soon be here claiming Webber really is that much slower than their precious Rapunzel. Really funny stuff and my prediction was of course correct.
I hope rapunzel crashes out tomorrow.

[ioan]

Webber lost his head when RBR refused to use team orders to favor him, that's all and it explains his miserable showing ever since.

[ioan]

Idiot Vettel fans will soon be here claiming Webber really is that much slower than their precious Rapunzel. Really funny stuff and my prediction was of course correct.
I hope rapunzel crashes out tomorrow.

Look who's talking! The fairness fairy himself! :rotflmao:

[ioan]

well the team just screwed him in Q1

they knew they did not have kers and still put him out with the harder tyres.

if they had put him on the softs he would have easily made Q2

I have no doubt that RBR have it in for Webber

Wait a moment, when the same happened to Ferrari and McLaren it was the fault of both team and drivers and now is only the team's fault! LOL

[N4D13]

I'd say that it's Webber's fault, and his alone. Vettel went 8 tenths faster than Webber in Q1 on hard tyres. You could blame the team for Webber's demise, but ultimately, it was him who didn't put in a good lap.

[ioan]

To be fair the hard tires hurt his chances however he could have opted for the softer compound knowing that he is not that fast.

[Ranger]

I'd say that it's Webber's fault, and his alone. Vettel went 8 tenths faster than Webber in Q1 on hard tyres. You could blame the team for Webber's demise, but ultimately, it was him who didn't put in a good lap.

Was his KERS even working in qualifying? I'm not sure.

[Ari]

I'd say that it's Webber's fault, and his alone. Vettel went 8 tenths faster than Webber in Q1 on hard tyres. You could blame the team for Webber's demise, but ultimately, it was him who didn't put in a good lap.

KERS were NOT working, worth about 8 tenths I'd say.

Id love to know whose decision it was to run Webber on hards with no kers.... was it Webbers or the teams? A lot of answer in that I reckon.

[Kevincal]

im sorry but its pretty obvious red bull are sabotaging mark... they dont want him getting in the way of wonder boy like he did last year. ferrari did the same with felipe, just like mclaren did with fernando, just like renault did with piquet. oh cant forget about rubens at ferrari lol... worst case of all.

[Ari]

Webber lost his head when RBR refused to use team orders to favor him, that's all and it explains his miserable showing ever since.

HIS miserable showing? Like at Abu Dhabi where Webber lost all his time on the straights in his quail lap. Or in Melbourne where the team gave him a defective car. Or maybe Malaysia where he had no kers on the start line and was smothered. Yes I know you believe webber had a bas start as well but you should know that a non kers start these days you basically need to carry the clutch. I'll post some detail if you like.

And, finally, we get to China where the Sam still cant give Webber a car with kers for what is one of the lo gets straights on the circuit.

As I said earlier, who made the decision to run hards when he had no kers?

[Koz]

I'd say that it's Webber's fault, and his alone. Vettel went 8 tenths faster than Webber in Q1 on hard tyres. You could blame the team for Webber's demise, but ultimately, it was him who didn't put in a good lap.

Webber did not make the tyre call, team did. He got screwed.

I am beginning to wonder if he'll finish the season with them...

[F1boat]

RBR is building themselves like Ferrari in the period 2000-2004. It worked very well, for them, one have to admit, especially when you have a top German driver, who can do what must be done...

[Zico]

I doubt the teams bad decision to run hards was an act of sabotage in itself although I confess I had thought that they were using every means possible to screw Mark over previously.
As has been said why would they intentionally sabotage Mark to the extent that he is left so far down the grid possibly jeopardising their chances of winning the constructors championship?.. It just doesn't make any sense.

Im now with Markabilly on this one... however dodgy it looks, designing a car to suit Vettel and his style is all they need to do, running hards in Q1 was simply a poor team decision Imo.

[Daniel]

Webber did not make the tyre call, team did. He got screwed.

Link?

[Daniel]

I doubt the teams bad decision to run hards was an act of sabotage in itself although I confess I had thought that they were using every means possible to screw Mark over previously.
As has been said why would they intentionally sabotage Mark to the extent that he is left so far down the grid possibly jeopardising their chances of winning the constructors championship?.. It just doesn't make any sense.

Because if you're a bit of a conspiracy theorist then it doesn't make sense for Webber to have made a bad call and have ruined his own race. I mean who can honestly think of any idea why Webber might want to save a set of softs for the race :rolleyes:

[F1boat]

running hards in Q1 was simply a poor team decision Imo.

And we have to admit that with Ferrari we have many precedents of that :D

[Koz]

Link?

There was brief interview/chat with Horner just after qualis on TV.

Edit: Here we go:

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/46312.html


"It was the team's call because it looked that another set of primes should have been enough, [judging by] the pace we saw in the car this morning with Mark's short amount of running," he added. "It should have been enough to comfortably make it through, but with the tyres not being up to temperature it obviously compromised him. He's just had rotten luck this weekend but I'm sure he can race very well from there."

[Ari]

Add to it the fact that on his second run he only had time for his out lap and one hot run...... On hards.....? Teams should know that you need a second lap on hards to get them working properly. Either very bad mismanagement or they just didn't think they would need to run again but after seeing the times decided to send him out. If that was the case and he only had time for one hot lap should have been softs.

Anyway, all coulda shoulda woulda. Webber starts from P18 with a car that may or may not have kers.

[Somebody]

Mark Webber: “The timing was the problem, not the tyre…” (http://adamcooperf1.com/2011/04/16/mark-webber-the-timing-was-the-problem-not-the-tyre/)

And...
"It's been a rotten day for Mark today," added Horner. "This morning he had an electrical issue and then a massive effort from the entire crew, including the mechanics from Sebastian [Vettel's] car to get the car ready for qualifying.

[N4D13]

I'd say that it's Webber's fault, and his alone. Vettel went 8 tenths faster than Webber in Q1 on hard tyres. You could blame the team for Webber's demise, but ultimately, it was him who didn't put in a good lap.
All right, I didn't know about the problems with his car, so I'm going to withdraw this. ;)

[ioan]

HIS miserable showing?


Yep. Or does his record since Brazil, when he was very vocal and asking for the team to support only him for the WDC, look stellar to you?

[ioan]

Mark Webber: “The timing was the problem, not the tyre…” (http://adamcooperf1.com/2011/04/16/mark-webber-the-timing-was-the-problem-not-the-tyre/)

And...

It certainly looks like the team is using everything available to support him, he even gets Vettel's mechanics to work on his car. I
Now 'm looking forward to some die hard fans telling us that Vettel's mechanics were only sabotaging Webber's car.

[ioan]

And we have to admit that with Ferrari we have many precedents of that :D

Nah, Ferrari were just trying to screw their drivers all the time.
And also McLaren did the same in the. I tell you F1 teams are not in it to win races, just to play games with their own drivers. ;)

[Koz]

Now 'm looking forward to some die hard fans telling us that Vettel's mechanics were only sabotaging Webber's car.

Well of course they were. :)

[RJL25]

ioan - you might find more people would be willing to listen to you and your points of view if you wheren't so critical of other peoples opinions.

You have to admit that its some kind of coincidence that for 3 weekends in a row now, Webber has been having issues with the car and struggling with bad decisions by the team, while at the same time his team mate has been romping away without any problems at all. There may not be anything deliberate going on, but surely even you could concede that there has been enough bad luck to make it easy for people to think that there is something going on.

People have legitamite reasons to be concerned, it may prove to be innocent enough, but at the same time its pretty easy to form the view that RBR are sandbagging Marks car as well, and fact is none of us will ever know the truth because IF there is something going on, it will never be revealed.

And in the final GP of the season last year, during qualifying if you break down the sector times, the sectors without straights Mark was on the same pace as Vettel, and the sectors with straights he was well behind... now in that case I'm not suggesting that anything suspicious was going on, I think it was just the last race of the season and Webber was probably racing with an engine that was well and truly past its best days, but you can't say that it was because he was driving **** when his time is being lost on the straights...

[ioan]

Vettel also had problems, not only Webber.
What about all the problems that Vettel had last season, especially at the start? Were RBR trying to screw Vettel?
Let's use some common sense and try to realize that some things happen accidentally.

[Bagwan]

Timing is everything .
They sent him out a touch too late to get that second lap on the primes .

At least it should be fun to watch Mark and Nick get through the pack .

[Dave B]

All you conspiracy theorists make me laugh. Even if RBR were favouring Seb they'd want P1 and P2, not 1 & 18.

Think it through. 3 races into a 19 race season they're not going to throw potential points away like that.

[ioan]

Webber's comments are more than obviously explaining what happened:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/90799

A good read for the conspiracy theorists!

[airshifter]

All you conspiracy theorists make me laugh. Even if RBR were favouring Seb they'd want P1 and P2, not 1 & 18.

Think it through. 3 races into a 19 race season they're not going to throw potential points away like that.

No, no Dave. 18th is the perfect position for the second car! :laugh:

I can understand people having favorite drivers and getting into the conspiracy theories to support their drivers. But people are already going to really extreme lengths to excuse Webber from any driver error. The KERS alone was said to have affected lap times by only 3 tenths or so, so he was still lacking half a second from Vettels times. Maybe Alonso finally found his 6/10ths... Mark had stolen it for a while.

With team orders now legal I can't see why any team would risk such a dismal showing from their second car.



Ioan,

Please take that link down. The conspiracy theorists have to keep ignoring it to debate their view. They can't have it in print that Mark was alright with the decision to stay on hard tires, as it ruins so many angles.

[Roamy]

WTFO Vet is simply faster than Webber - Webber has a car that can move up the field so I don't see the fuss.

[Mia 01]

I think Mark will end up fourth or fifth tomorrow.

[steveaki13]

All you conspiracy theorists make me laugh. Even if RBR were favouring Seb they'd want P1 and P2, not 1 & 18.

Think it through. 3 races into a 19 race season they're not going to throw potential points away like that.

Agree

A racing team which is champions of driver and constructors title, would not throw so many points away surely.

If thats If they have done anything along the lines mentioned it would be pretty stupid.

*If Vettel crashes after 4 or 5 Rounds and is hurt, then they need Webber to take up the challenge.
*If they want to win a constructors title again, they need all points possible.
*Finally if Webber needs to help Vettel later in the year, then thats screwed that up as well.

All in all to much to lose to do anything like this.


After all you need a Ferrari Schumacher & Barrichello team, more than a Benetton Schumacher & Lehto/Verstappen Team.

[truefan72]

Vettel also had problems, not only Webber.
What about all the problems that Vettel had last season, especially at the start? Were RBR trying to screw Vettel?
Let's use some common sense and try to realize that some things happen accidentally.
It is one thing to have problems, and quite another to create problems
The latter is what happened to Webber.
I alos think that the team really does not put that much effort to caring about Webber's side of the garage, if they did, they would iron out the issues with his car.
Yes they have different setups, but they are running identical machines. So why would the kers fail in his car and not vettels?
Why would they not swap out the unit for a spare one they probably haver sitting in the back?
To me it reminds me of the year where prost complained that he literally had only 4 guys working for him in the team and garage, while the rest where working for Senna.

At the conclusion of last year I thought it would have been best for him to leave the team, but others said no, he still is in the best car out there and all things considered would still have a fighting chance for the WDC and probably continue to win some races. In hindsight it might have been better for him to leave and sign with Renault, Sauber or even Force India. At least he would have a team that cared abut him and a car that wasn't always compromised.

[ioan]

So why would the kers fail in his car and not vettels?

And why would KERS fail on Vettel's car and not on Webber's?
Ever heard about hazard?!

[ioan]

I alos think that the team really does not put that much effort to caring about Webber's side of the garage, if they did, they would iron out the issues with his car.

This has been already posted but it's better to repeat it I guess:


"It's been a rotten day for Mark today," added Horner. "This morning he had an electrical issue and then a massive effort from the entire crew, including the mechanics from Sebastian [Vettel's] car to get the car ready for qualifying.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/90761

So much for not putting enough effort into Webber's car.

[Mia 01]

RBR are not that stupid that some here thinks, they want him up there taking point form the others.

Belittle Seb in this way don´t work.

[TMorel]

Well looks like we have the evidence to show it's not just Mark that gets the wonky brain on the start.

[Ari]

I think Mark will end up fourth or fifth tomorrow.

Wrong!!! :p

[ioan]

It looks like RBR did screw Webber again and didn't support him at all, eh?!
Change of tune around here? :p :

[Whyzars]

It looks like RBR did screw Webber again and didn't support him at all, eh?!
Change of tune around here? :p :

They must've disconnected the goslow. ;)