Matthew Wilson in Autosport

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Sorry if there's another Wilson thread somewhere, but my head just exploded:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/90480

Is he having a laugh? And Autosport, he doesn't become any better because you twist the facts! Extraordinary.

[Lundgaard]

I read it! I don't know why the rally-journalists are so stupid or just refuse to see the facts! As stated before in another thread the wrc-journalist have become friends with the drivers, and that is awfull to see in wrc.com and autosport!

[MrJan]

I don't see why you've got an issue with the journalist. Most of the article is just a quote from Wilson, the main bulk of what the journo has actually written is:


Wilson is enjoying his most competitive season to datetrue, having run fourth on the last two rounds of the WRC.true

He is seventh in the championshiptrue after steering problems cost him time on the opening round of the series in Swedentrue (he finished ninthtrue), he retired with electrical trouble in Mexicotrue and finished fifth last time out in Portugaltrue.

I get that people don't like Wilson but to have an issue with a British publication publishing a story about a British driver is hardly 'extraordinary'. Do you expect them to do an interview with him and then rip him apart and laugh at how ridiculous his quotes are?

[Lundgaard]

As a journalist he should no only tell the obvious story, but also the story behind. Yes Wilson was fourth on the last two rounds but that
was ONLY because of others misfortune. He was not in the fight.

Generelly the journalist at wrc.com and autosport (especially wrc.com) don't ask the interesting questions. One for Wilson could be: "You have been in the WRC for five season in a competitive car and we have NEVER seen any pace. And yet you are talking about a factory team....Why?"

[MrJan]

As a journalist he should no only tell the obvious story, but also the story behind. Yes Wilson was fourth on the last two rounds but that
was ONLY because of others misfortune. He was not in the fight.

Generelly the journalist at wrc.com and autosport (especially wrc.com) don't ask the interesting questions. One for Wilson could be: "You have been in the WRC for five season in a competitive car and we have NEVER seen any pace. And yet you are talking about a factory team....Why?"

If they ask that question then a few things happen. Firstly they don't get an answer to it, then Matt Wilson procedes to blank them in the future, then they risk pissing off Daddy and the whole of M-Sport and Ford. It's just not worth it to get some answers that we already know (he's s**t). In the UK the BBC screened a programme about corruption in football, in it they claimed that Jason Ferguson had used his father's influence to set up transfer deals and make a bit on the side. Off the back of that Sir Alex Ferguson has vowed never to speak to the BBC, so they're left in the embarrasing position of not being able to interview the top manager in English football, possibly the world.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/ferguson-will-never-talk-to-the-bbc-again-401487.html

And why highlight that his 4th came from others demise? Rallying is all about getting to the end of the event, if you can't do that then you don't get points. Ogier came 4th in Sweden because Solberg got caught for speeding, yet I doubt interviewers (or fans) were clamouring to tell Seb that fact. The truth of the matter is that people just don't like Matt Wilson, so anything about him will get torn apart by people as a matter of course.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

And good on BBC for doing it. We need independent journalism, not mothpieces that might as well work for their PR department. I thought Autosport was supposed to be a professional magazine (it was back in the day), but I guess I was wrong. Do they need to verbally rip him apart in the interview? Obviously not. But it's embarrasingly positive - "Wilson's speed has improved with the switch to 1600cc World Rally Cars" (It has?) and "enjoying his most competitive season yet" (I thought competitive was being a part of the action, tootling around and collecting points when others fall off).

[MikeD]

As a journalist he should no only tell the obvious story, but also the story behind. Yes Wilson was fourth on the last two rounds but that
was ONLY because of others misfortune. He was not in the fight.

Generelly the journalist at wrc.com and autosport (especially wrc.com) don't ask the interesting questions. One for Wilson could be: "You have been in the WRC for five season in a competitive car and we have NEVER seen any pace. And yet you are talking about a factory team....Why?"

I fully agree.

I have made a little comparison between Matthew Wilson, Conrad Rautenbach and Frederico Villagra, because people in here tend to ask why people weren't/aren't giving those two drivers the same critism. For me it's about the amount of WRC rallies Matthew Wilson has done in a WRC car compared with the two others.

Matthew Wilson has done 77 rallies with one 4th place as his best result and six 5th places.

Conrad Rautenbach did 28 rallies in a WRC car with one 4th and one 5th place as his best results.

Frederico Villagra has done 35 rallies with two 4th places as his best results.

So what should be apparant now is that Matthew Wilson has done more WRC events in a high spec Ford Focus WRC car that the two other drivers combined - without getting near a podium, and without progesing in tearms of results or speed. It's simply beyond me why there isn't more critism of such a poor driver (maybe the worst WRC driver of all times) who keeps getting such a good car without delivering results. I find it embarresing that Malcom Wilson keeps rediculing the WRC with his son getting a drive he clearly doesn't deserve and he should instead use that car for a future talent and to help Ford in their fight for both titles.

[MikeD]

And why highlight that his 4th came from others demise? Rallying is all about getting to the end of the event, if you can't do that then you don't get points. Ogier came 4th in Sweden because Solberg got caught for speeding, yet I doubt interviewers (or fans) were clamouring to tell Seb that fact. The truth of the matter is that people just don't like Matt Wilson, so anything about him will get torn apart by people as a matter of course.

You cannot compare Ogier with M.Wilson. In this debate it doesn't matter how Ogier got his 4th place because he has proven he can win rallies and be consistent on the podium - M.Wilson hasn't!

[MrJan]

"enjoying his most competitive season yet" (I thought competitive was being a part of the action, tootling around and collecting points when others fall off).

He's more competitive than he has been, I think that goes for a lot of the lower order drivers it doesn't say that he is competitive, it says that he's doing better than in previous years. I don't think it's embarrasingly positive either, like I said most of it is just the actual quotes, the truth is that you don't like him so will hate anything that's written about him anyway. I'm English and I don't like the bloke, he adds no real worth to the WRC (not in the way that even Ken Block does), but if he wants to dream big and keep on racing then let him. Henning is nearly as **** but he doesn't get anywhere near the abuse that Wilson does. Why not? Okay so he doesn't crow about 5 year plans but then he's old enough to know better than that.

And yes the BBC did well, but they've got 19 other managers that they can speak to, if Autosport piss off Malcolm Wilson in the same way then all of a sudden they can only speak to 4 drivers until Mini turn up.

[MrJan]

You cannot compare Ogier with M.Wilson. In this debate it doesn't matter how Ogier got his 4th place because he has proven he can win rallies and be consistent on the podium - M.Wilson hasn't!

I wasn't comparing the two drivers, I was comparing the situation. Why is it any different because Ogier is quick? How can one driver gain a place due to the demise of others and get ripped, while another does it and people say "well he's won a rally so that 4th place counts for more".

And don't go thinking that if Matt Wilson wasn't in WRC that someone else would be, that seat would disappear along with Stobart.

[Wim_Impreza]

I fully agree.

I have made a little comparison between Matthew Wilson, Conrad Rautenbach and Frederico Villagra, because people in here tend to ask why people weren't/aren't giving those two drivers the same critism. For me it's about the amount of WRC rallies Matthew Wilson has done in a WRC car compared with the two others.

Matthew Wilson has done 77 rallies with one 4th place as his best result and six 5th places.

Conrad Rautenbach did 28 rallies in a WRC car with one 4th and one 5th place as his best results.

Frederico Villagra has done 35 rallies with two 4th places as his best results.

So what should be apparant now is that Matthew Wilson has done more WRC events in a high spec Ford Focus WRC car that the two other drivers combined - without getting near a podium, and without progesing in tearms of results or speed. It's simply beyond me why there isn't more critism of such a poor driver (maybe the worst WRC driver of all times) who keeps getting such a good car without delivering results. I find it embarresing that Malcom Wilson keeps rediculing the WRC with his son getting a drive he clearly doesn't deserve and he should instead use that car for a future talent and to help Ford in their fight for both titles.

When you also include the results outside the WRC, than you can say that Rautenbach and Villagra had / have much more success than Matthew Wilson. Villagra is a multiple Argentinean national champion and Rautenbach won the IRC Safari round once. The car what Matthew Wilson use, is also better than Villagra's Focus. Villagra and Rautenbach doesn't have / had useluss words, but they only say / said they drive for fun. As long as Matthew Wilson is in WRC and drivers can take points with SupeRally, I don't follow it anymore.

[Barreis]

It's fiesta these days, not focus anymore. :D

[Wim_Impreza]

Ok thanks, as you can read I don't follow the WRC anymore. ;)

[AndyRAC]

And good on BBC for doing it. We need independent journalism, not mothpieces that might as well work for their PR department. I thought Autosport was supposed to be a professional magazine (it was back in the day), but I guess I was wrong. Do they need to verbally rip him apart in the interview? Obviously not. But it's embarrasingly positive - "Wilson's speed has improved with the switch to 1600cc World Rally Cars" (It has?) and "enjoying his most competitive season yet" (I thought competitive was being a part of the action, tootling around and collecting points when others fall off).

Agree. Hasn't been a good magazine for a while - compare one of 15-20 years ago to now. They won't have a non-F1 cover anymore, as non-F1 doesn't sell. So Motorsport=F1........

[Barreis]

@Wim: Don't be bitter 'cos of him. The sport is what we all like. :)

[Lundgaard]

If they ask that question then a few things happen. Firstly they don't get an answer to it, then Matt Wilson procedes to blank them in the future, then they risk pissing off Daddy and the whole of M-Sport and Ford. It's just not worth it to get some answers that we already know (he's s**t). In the UK the BBC screened a programme about corruption in football, in it they claimed that Jason Ferguson had used his father's influence to set up transfer deals and make a bit on the side. Off the back of that Sir Alex Ferguson has vowed never to speak to the BBC, so they're left in the embarrasing position of not being able to interview the top manager in English football, possibly the world.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/ferguson-will-never-talk-to-the-bbc-again-401487.html

And why highlight that his 4th came from others demise? Rallying is all about getting to the end of the event, if you can't do that then you don't get points. Ogier came 4th in Sweden because Solberg got caught for speeding, yet I doubt interviewers (or fans) were clamouring to tell Seb that fact. The truth of the matter is that people just don't like Matt Wilson, so anything about him will get torn apart by people as a matter of course.


So what you are really saying is, that the journalist should be affraid os Malcolm Wilson because he has power?! Then it is not journalism anymore. It has noy been
for years..

[N.O.T]

he is a disgrace for motorsport history.....

[BDunnell]

If they ask that question then a few things happen. Firstly they don't get an answer to it, then Matt Wilson procedes to blank them in the future, then they risk pissing off Daddy and the whole of M-Sport and Ford. It's just not worth it to get some answers that we already know (he's s**t). In the UK the BBC screened a programme about corruption in football, in it they claimed that Jason Ferguson had used his father's influence to set up transfer deals and make a bit on the side. Off the back of that Sir Alex Ferguson has vowed never to speak to the BBC, so they're left in the embarrasing position of not being able to interview the top manager in English football, possibly the world.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/ferguson-will-never-talk-to-the-bbc-again-401487.html

I agree absolutely with your sentiments as expressed in this thread. I would say, though, that the stories about Jason Ferguson were rather more serious than the statement that a rally driver is a bit crap, so the justification for the BBC broadcasting that story was 100 per cent there. But your general point is entirely accurate.

[BDunnell]

Agree. Hasn't been a good magazine for a while - compare one of 15-20 years ago to now. They won't have a non-F1 cover anymore, as non-F1 doesn't sell. So Motorsport=F1........

If a non-F1 cover doesn't sell, then unfortunately it is entirely inevitable that they won't carry non-F1 covers. To do otherwise would be bad business sense.

[Lundgaard]

When you also include the results outside the WRC, than you can say that Rautenbach and Villagra had / have much more success than Matthew Wilson. Villagra is a multiple Argentinean national champion and Rautenbach won the IRC Safari round once. The car what Matthew Wilson use, is also better than Villagra's Focus. Villagra and Rautenbach doesn't have / had useluss words, but they only say / said they drive for fun. As long as Matthew Wilson is in WRC and drivers can take points with SupeRally, I don't follow it anymore.

I agree. I like Block better than Wilson (eventhough he is slower) because he says "Yes, I stink!". Wilson i living in his own world. He really thinks he is world class!

[Barreis]

When you finish 4th on WRC event, you must start to think that.

[AndyRAC]

If a non-F1 cover doesn't sell, then unfortunately it is entirely inevitable that they won't carry non-F1 covers. To do otherwise would be bad business sense.

Yes, I'm afraid it is. Why has this changed though? Probably because now the only mainstream Motorsport is F1. However, this week Autosport has Plato/ BTCC on the front - which blows my argument out the water....... :dozey:

[MrJan]

Yes, I'm afraid it is. Why has this changed though? Probably because now the only mainstream Motorsport is F1. However, this week Autosport has Plato/ BTCC on the front - which blows my argument out the water....... :dozey:

Autosport has been circuit based for as long as I can remember. In fact for a while Haymarket were publishing RallyXS instead and Autosport had virtually no rallying, obviously that changed when RallyXS went tits up and was absorbed by Autosport.


So what you are really saying is, that the journalist should be affraid os Malcolm Wilson because he has power?! Then it is not journalism anymore. It has noy been for years..

I'm saying that I'd understand it if that were the case. However I still think that the main reason he won't ask hard hitting questions is because he simply won't get an answer at all. If I were MW and someone said "why are you still slow" then I'd just move onto the next journo who is happy to ask the questions that I want to ask. Either way I don't think it matters, he's a driver that is swelling a crap entry to a dieing sport, if Matt Wilson stops rallying then it's just another nail in the coffin. Do you want Al Qassimi to quit too? And what about Henning Solberg? And Mads Ostberg (until this year he's been crap). And Toni Gardemeister never really did much either, maybe he should have given up. A driver is a driver, unless he's steeling a works drive I don't think it really matters. or perhaps you forget that Matt Wilson = Stobart Ford? He's a nice British lad from Carlisle, promoting a nice British company from Carlisle.

[BDunnell]

Yes, I'm afraid it is. Why has this changed though? Probably because now the only mainstream Motorsport is F1. However, this week Autosport has Plato/ BTCC on the front - which blows my argument out the water....... :dozey:

Yes, other motorsports going out of the mainstream must surely be a reason — excellent to hear that they consider a BTCC cover to be worthwhile, though. The effect of Hamilton and Button's recent successes must also have been potent.

[BDunnell]

A driver is a driver, unless he's steeling a works drive I don't think it really matters.

And even then it doesn't really matter.

[Wim_Impreza]

And Toni Gardemeister never really did much either, maybe he should have given up.

He never had a real good car in his WRC period. I think his results were good as you see which cars he has driven.

Now it seems that he has lost some speed indeed. I hope he can prove me wrong.

[Barreis]

What about focus in 2005?

[mm1]

+1

[Wim_Impreza]

What about focus in 2005?

That was the car from 2004 and there were (almost) no updates during the year. Fourth in the championship with that car wasn't bad in my opinion. The Citroëns and Subaru's were better that year.

[tfp]

I think Matts trouble is he jumped into the sport at the highest level, instead of working his way through S2000's, etc.
You cant deny in his career he's never been on the podium, the consistency is there, unfortunately the pace isn't.
I really hope he gets fast enough one day to challenge for podiums, that would really piss off all of the wilson bashers in here :p

Best of luck for the future Matt! :up:

I await the negative comments :D

[N.O.T]

i just love people with positive energy for everything....they are the reason nothing gets done seriously and correctly.

[TyPat107]

"At the end of the day, if that's what they want to twine about, then let them. But let's not forget, if they wanted to go rallying, they had the same chance as me. Okay, I had a leg up, but we've still had to bring the money to the table."

Same chance as Wilson? Not in a million years.

And hasn't he been in the new 1600cc car longer than anyone including Loeb?

[sollitt]

Another mindless MW bashing thread with no purpose or credibility.
The article is fine, probably just a filler for the magazine, in which Wilson made no claim to greatness. It seems some will get their noses out of joint whenever they read his name or spot his picture. Good on the young fellow for ignoring the crap and getting on with the job.


Do you want Al Qassimi to quit too? And what about Henning Solberg? And Mads Ostberg (until this year he's been crap). And Toni Gardemeister never really did much either, maybe he should have given up. A driver is a driver, unless he's steeling a works drive I don't think it really matters. or perhaps you forget that Matt Wilson = Stobart Ford? He's a nice British lad from Carlisle, promoting a nice British company from Carlisle.
Best comment so far.

[Plan9]

I'm no fan of MWJr either however I think that he could have been on the podium if Loeb had gone to F1/Le mans when it looked likely he could have made the transition in 2008. I think that many driver could have improved their finishing positions in rallies if Loeb had not bee so efficient at winning.However this is not an excuse for MW to waste a great car and try to talk down the fact that his dad put him in a position he had no ability to make the most of.

[Daniel]

In the UK the BBC screened a programme about corruption in football, in it they claimed that Jason Ferguson had used his father's influence to set up transfer deals and make a bit on the side. Off the back of that Sir Alex Ferguson has vowed never to speak to the BBC, so they're left in the embarrasing position of not being able to interview the top manager in English football, possibly the world.

All media outlets should keep doing his till these fools realise that they need the media. If the media refused to cover Manchester United in any way shape or form then I suspect their sponsors would have a lot to say......

[Daniel]

Good on the young fellow for ignoring the crap and getting on with the job.

What job? The guy does an amazing job of going slow in good machinery and wasting daddy's money. He's not hurting anyone of course, but we're still allowed to comment.

[Daniel]

"We've done an awful lots of testing with these cars and that's helped me," he said. "In some ways, I came into the sport at the wrong time. You look at the time when there were six or seven manufacturers competing and there were more seats then.

What a joke. All that would mean would be that he was even further down the results sheets. I doubt that even back in the day when there were third drivers that he would have been one unless daddy wanted to pay for it.

[N.O.T]

Good on the young fellow for ignoring the crap and getting on with the job.


last time i checked in order to have a job someone has to pay you...not the other way around

Wilson is a just a disgrace to the sport....i never hear henning/gardemeister/al quassimy comparing themselves to mcrae and burns nor did i hear them talking about 5 year plans, nor did their dad was responsible for an official team....

The day he disappears from the WRC is going to be a step forward for the sport.

[sonnyc4]

What year are we in the "five year plan" by the way year seven or eight???

[sollitt]

NOT, "getting on with the job" is a common colloquialism which neither implies one is being paid or otherwise. That said, are you certain that Matt Wilson doesn't draw some earnings from the setup that runs his programme.
I would have thought the schedule of a WRC competitor would leave little time for other employment.

Matt Wilson is neither a "disgrace to the WRC" nor is it our position to determine that the cost of his programme is a waste of money. That is for those providing the funding to determine and, given it's longevity to date, it would seem they consider it money well spent.

I notice in another thread Daniel has apologised to Antony Warmbold for comments made in previous years. Barreis has stated that we commonly "spat" on him and other drivers like him - including Rautenbach and Wilson. The fact is those who harangued these drivers previously and who continue to do so now are in the minority and do so only for reasons relative to themselves - lack of intelligence, immaturity, jealousy, cowardice.

Whilst no particular fan Wilson seems to be a pleasant young chap who has embraced the sport & it's fans. He may not be on winning pace but he seems to be able to hold his own with the other 'privateers'. The sport is better off for his involvement and if the media want to write about him - good for them!

[N.O.T]

4 paragraphs and not point....i have seen worse...

The bad thing about wilson is that he is persistent....at least all the failures of the past like warmbold,rautenbach,companq ects knew when to stop.....he is a disgrace for the sport.

[BDunnell]

The bad thing about wilson is that he is persistent....at least all the failures of the past like warmbold,rautenbach,companq ects knew when to stop.....he is a disgrace for the sport.

The spectator control on the Portuguese Rally in the 1980s, which led directly to members of the public being killed, was a disgrace to the sport. Matt Wilson being a bit slow compared with the top drivers is not.

[tfp]

The spectator control on the Portuguese Rally in the 1980s, which led directly to members of the public being killed, was a disgrace to the sport. Matt Wilson being a bit slow compared with the top drivers is not.

+1 :up:
One of the most sensible things I've read here.

[Daniel]

NOT, "getting on with the job" is a common colloquialism which neither implies one is being paid or otherwise. That said, are you certain that Matt Wilson doesn't draw some earnings from the setup that runs his programme.
I would have thought the schedule of a WRC competitor would leave little time for other employment.

Matt Wilson is neither a "disgrace to the WRC" nor is it our position to determine that the cost of his programme is a waste of money. That is for those providing the funding to determine and, given it's longevity to date, it would seem they consider it money well spent.

I notice in another thread Daniel has apologised to Antony Warmbold for comments made in previous years. Barreis has stated that we commonly "spat" on him and other drivers like him - including Rautenbach and Wilson. The fact is those who harangued these drivers previously and who continue to do so now are in the minority and do so only for reasons relative to themselves - lack of intelligence, immaturity, jealousy, cowardice.

Whilst no particular fan Wilson seems to be a pleasant young chap who has embraced the sport & it's fans. He may not be on winning pace but he seems to be able to hold his own with the other 'privateers'. The sport is better off for his involvement and if the media want to write about him - good for them!

I don't seem to remember Wilson or Warmbold's fathers getting the money for their sons campaigns from conflict diamonds or making deals with people like Mugabe......

I sometimes wonder how you fit through doorways with that big head of yours held oh so high.......

[sollitt]

4 paragraphs and not point....i have seen worse...

NOT, how flattering. But it is truly yourself who is the master of pointless one liners.

I wonder though if for the first time you might actually ellaborate and justify your claim that Matt Wilson is a "disgrace".
I doubt you're up to it but would be intrigued to see you try.

[Daniel]

NOT, how flattering. But it is truly yourself who is the master of pointless one liners.

Well at least if he wastes someone's time it's only a little bit of time that he wastes.

[N.O.T]

because in any other motorsport he would be kicked long long time ago.....yet all these years he proclaims himself as the next Burns and Mcrae....he sucks budget off the official team (is it strange that the decline of the ford team came when Slowson started his full program ??). None other motorsport would tolerate that,

He is a disgrace for the sport

[sollitt]

Sorry, I don't think it's ever been established that he takes budget from the factory team at all. Neither have I ever seen him proclaim to be the next Burns or McRae. Is that the best you can do? Try again.

[Wasted Talent]

Sorry, I don't think it's ever been established that he takes budget from the factory team at all. Neither have I ever seen him proclaim to be the next Burns or McRae. Is that the best you can do? Try again.

Agree 100%. A lot of jealousy on here......

WT

[MrJan]

He is a disgrace for the sport

NOT, read this:


The spectator control on the Portuguese Rally in the 1980s, which led directly to members of the public being killed, was a disgrace to the sport. Matt Wilson being a bit slow compared with the top drivers is not.

This doesn't even allow for the probability that Wilson is basically providing funding for a whole team. The VK thing (do they still sponsor them?) is probably more linked in with Steve Perez doing a deal to help him get a shiny WRCar most years, but Stobart is almost certainly in the sport because of Matt Wilson.

And this line is hilarious "None other motorsport would tolerate that" :laugh: :rotflmao: :laugh:

Are you serious?!!! :laugh: You obviously know very little, if anything, about motorsport. Have you ever looked at an F1 grid and wondered how some of the drivers get there? It's all about what you bring to the team, not what the team gives you. Providing sponsors ('paid drives') are what make the motorsport world go round.

[Barreis]

4 paragraphs and not point....i have seen worse...

The bad thing about wilson is that he is persistent....at least all the failures of the past like warmbold,rautenbach,companq ects knew when to stop.....he is a disgrace for the sport.

It's not good to talk about our friend that way.

[Englandsfahrer]

Matt Wilson is neither a "disgrace to the WRC" nor is it our position to determine that the cost of his programme is a waste of money. That is for those providing the funding to determine and, given it's longevity to date, it would seem they consider it money well spent.

Agreed.
What I don't like about Wilson though, is how he's been portrayed as a future Champion, when clearly he's a bit down on talent compared with his own dad and granddad. He claims to be learning, but as far as I know he's been brought up racing most things on wheels since an early age?
Future Champion, according to Crash.net (http://www.crash.net/world+rally/comments/152897/1/d/0/matt_wilson_the_goal_to_be_wrc_champion.html)

If he was honest about being in rally because he loves it, it honestly wouldn't bother me much. One of my favorite drivers is Ken Block, simply because of his attitude. He's not as quick as the others, and he knows it. But then again, he was over 40 when he started his first WRC rally. To see someone who's genuinely happy just to be rallying, and also honest about his own capabilities and talent is rare, and rather pleasing.




The bad thing about wilson is that he is persistent....at least all the failures of the past like warmbold,rautenbach,companq ects knew when to stop.....he is a disgrace for the sport.

And because they all stopped, there are now a shortage of drivers in the WRC.
Which, as you know, makes for great television, and lots of action when you're actually a spectator. I love it when the WRC class finishes within 10 minutes... Especially on the fast stages of the Epynt, where I was last rally GB. Because it's just sooo much fun watching cars go slower. It gives you more time to study where they miss their braking points etc.

personal attacks removed by Mark

[Daniel]

Agree 100%. A lot of jealousy on here......

WT
This is the lamest argument ever. I'm not jealous of Matt at all, I'd be embarassed if I woke up tomorrow and I was doing what he was doing as badly as he is doing it.....

[Mark]

It's fine to strongly disagree with opinions. But let's keep the personal stuff down to a minimum!

[Daniel]

It's fine to strongly disagree with opinions. But let's keep the personal stuff down to a minimum!

You're just jealous!

Slightly off topic I do honestly think that accusing someone of being jealous is a rather lame argument. If that were true any criticism of any driver could be shrugged off as jealousy, truth be told I wouldn't want to do what Matthew Wilson is doing unless I honestly felt that i was in a position to be winning events or at least fighting for wins. Some people have different goals in life, some people just want to compete and some people like myself want to be competitive and if we're not going to be able to do that then we don't bother. Some people also want for the sport to be at its best and for M-Sport to actually be up there fighting with Citroen rather than being 2nd best because nobody else is competing and personally I feel that Matty's 5 year plans are an unwelcome and unnecessary drain in terms of money and attention for M-Sport when they should be focusing on getting their two professional drivers into a position where they can fight consistently for rally wins and not throwing good money after bad.

If wanting M-Sport to have a better chance of competing against Citroen is being jealous then I guess I'm just jealous!

[N.O.T]

Agreed.
One of my favorite drivers is Ken Block,

I started to reply seriously but then i saw that...no need to bother anymore.

as for the jelousy thing....i really cannot understand it....i never wanted to be a rally driver so there isn't anything there to jealous...i watch the sport because i like the spectacle and admire true skills.

Wilson is a disgrace for the sport due to his attitude, not his non existent skills...

As for the insults...there are very few people who have my respect and only from those i would take an insult seriously adn would make me think about my attitude...the rest of you can bomb away...i have immunity.

[BDunnell]

Wilson is a disgrace for the sport due to his attitude, not his non existent skills...

Read what I posted above about what really constitutes a disgrace to the sport. This was not meant as an insult, rather as an attempt to get you to change your view and make you think that the way you phrase your criticism might be over-the-top and unacceptable.

[MrJan]

I started to reply seriously but then i saw that...no need to bother anymore..

That's a real problem of yours, you switch off to any real point that people make. You're so short sighted (and possibly stupid) that you form your own opinion of what people are saying. The fact that he likes Ken Block is clarified with: "...simply because of his attitude. He's not as quick as the others, and he knows it. But then again, he was over 40 when he started his first WRC rally. To see someone who's genuinely happy just to be rallying, and also honest about his own capabilities and talent is rare, and rather pleasing." This is perfectly valid, and makes it quite funny when you say that you think "Wilson is a disgrace for the sport due to his attitude". Besides a terrible use of the word 'disgrace', it's a complete contradiction of your insult towards Englandsfahrer :laugh:

Agreed on the jealousy thing though, if anything it weakens your argument when you claim that the other person is just jealous.

[m.lowe]

because in any other motorsport he would be kicked long long time ago.....yet all these years he proclaims himself as the next Burns and Mcrae....he sucks budget off the official team (is it strange that the decline of the ford team came when Slowson started his full program ??). None other motorsport would tolerate that,

He is a disgrace for the sport

I've never read so much deflamatory crap.
Please show us where he proclaims to be the next McRae or Burns
Hes out there doing what he likes with the backing of a team that must be happy to have him and yes his fathers influence will open a door for him in rallying what father wouldn't help their son in rallying or motorsport and lets not forget Matt started out in circuit racing and did well at it.

To those that slate Matthew.
what have you lot done in the WRC apart from sitting in front of your computer games telling yourselves you will be world champion one day
Dream on.
For gods sake enjoy the sport for what it is and and enjoy seeing drivers in action instead of putting them down when you don't know them personally
Hes not wasting your money so let up

[N.O.T]

so in order to be able to judge someone you must first prove yourself in the thing you judge him on......

Any person deserves a chance...and every person deserves a second chance in everything. None deserves a third. When you buy your chances beyond that point and have the nerve to give interviews and showcase your non existent rally driving to the media then there is something wrong.

[pino]

For gods sake enjoy the sport for what it is and and enjoy seeing drivers in action instead of putting them down when you don't know them personally
Hes not wasting your money so let up



Best line I've read in here for months :up:

[m.lowe]

Who are you N.O.T and others to judge any driver out there competing whether they get results or dont do as good as others?
What you said about him being a disgrace to the sport is such a stupid comment
what disgrace has Matthew brought to the sport?
Ok he might not be a Loeb or Hirvonen or other drivers but why does that make people slag him off.
Ok his 5 year plan hasn't gone to plan like it was thought, but nothing in life is guaranteed is it? and hes only human afterall

whats the big deal that hes not getting the results it was hoped that would be predicted
Next you will be blaming the events for not being nice and smooth and not making cars break on events

[Daniel]

I've never read so much deflamatory crap.
Please show us where he proclaims to be the next McRae or Burns
Hes out there doing what he likes with the backing of a team that must be happy to have him and yes his fathers influence will open a door for him in rallying what father wouldn't help their son in rallying or motorsport and lets not forget Matt started out in circuit racing and did well at it.

To those that slate Matthew.
what have you lot done in the WRC apart from sitting in front of your computer games telling yourselves you will be world champion one day
Dream on.
For gods sake enjoy the sport for what it is and and enjoy seeing drivers in action instead of putting them down when you don't know them personally
Hes not wasting your money so let up

What a load of crap. So for us to criticise Wilson we have to have driven in the WRC? This is a discussion forum and we're going to discuss drivers and they're performance.

It's also a load of crap to say "he's not wasting your money so let up" for the reasons I explained previously which are that it can't help but get in the way of M-Sport actually trying to perform well.....

Grow up and realise that Matty is rubbish and people will rightfully slag him off

[Daniel]

Who are you N.O.T and others to judge any driver out there competing whether they get results or dont do as good as others?
What you said about him being a disgrace to the sport is such a stupid comment
what disgrace has Matthew brought to the sport?
Ok he might not be a Loeb or Hirvonen or other drivers but why does that make people slag him off.
Ok his 5 year plan hasn't gone to plan like it was thought, but nothing in life is guaranteed is it? and hes only human afterall

whats the big deal that hes not getting the results it was hoped that would be predicted
Next you will be blaming the events for not being nice and smooth and not making cars break on events

You ask NOT who he is to judge Wilson? Well if we're going to be silly then who are you to comment on what NOT has said? Who is Pino to agree with you? Who ate my cookie?

This is a discussion forum and people are going to have opinions on drivers and teams.

[Brother John]

Best line I've read in here for months :up:

Yes Pino you're right, maybe you put this at http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?141845-Rally-forum-discussions-and-comments. And make from this thread: "Rally-forum-discussions-and-comments" a Sticky. :?:

[Rich705]

I read these boards frequently, and it's clear many people don't like Matthew, he might not be the fastest but surely if we got rid of all the drivers currently not making podiums we'd be left with 5 drivers in WRC, Loeb, Ogier, Hirvonen, Latvala and P Solberg. I don't think having 5 drivers is going to improve the sport so I'm struggling to understand the argument here.
It's true Matthew isn't going to challenge for the championship trophy, but he's brought the money for the drive so deserves to race just like anybody else, he's not disrupting M-Sport in any way, infact he's increasing profits for them as he pays them for his car, he doesn't get handed a drive just cos his dad is the boss, he's gotta find the sponsors to race just like everybody else, afterall were not in the 90's with many factory teams and paid drivers, now the seats go to whoever has got the most cash to pay for their seat, and I don't like it, but it's just the direction motorsport has gone.
If we gave every driver a hard time just cos they don't make podiums we may as well accept this is the end of WRC, if anything I think Loeb has had a more negative effect on the sport (like shumacher did in F1 before), yeah he's the best but it gets boring when 1 driver dominates 90% of the championship and is pretty much guaranteed to win constantly.

*dons firesuit awaiting responses*

[Daniel]

I read these boards frequently, and it's clear many people don't like Matthew, he might not be the fastest but surely if we got rid of all the drivers currently not making podiums we'd be left with 5 drivers in WRC, Loeb, Ogier, Hirvonen, Latvala and P Solberg. I don't think having 5 drivers is going to improve the sport so I'm struggling to understand the argument here.
It's true Matthew isn't going to challenge for the championship trophy, but he's brought the money for the drive so deserves to race just like anybody else, he's not disrupting M-Sport in any way, infact he's increasing profits for them as he pays them for his car, he doesn't get handed a drive just cos his dad is the boss, he's gotta find the sponsors to race just like everybody else, afterall were not in the 90's with many factory teams and paid drivers, now the seats go to whoever has got the most cash to pay for their seat, and I don't like it, but it's just the direction motorsport has gone.
If we gave every driver a hard time just cos they don't make podiums we may as well accept this is the end of WRC, if anything I think Loeb has had a more negative effect on the sport (like shumacher did in F1 before), yeah he's the best but it gets boring when 1 driver dominates 90% of the championship and is pretty much guaranteed to win constantly.

*dons firesuit awaiting responses*

Tbh though I don't really see how things would be that much worse by not having Wilson there.

If Malcolm wants to spend his money on his son and have it come to nothing then fine, but it's not the way a professional would do things. All the drivers that have come through the ranks of Peugeot or Citroen aside from perhaps Loix, were more than capable of winning rounds and were there purely based on what they could do for the team.

If people want to say that Wilson is a waste of space then that should be fine, none of this rubbish about having to have gone out and driven a WRCar before being able to criticise him. If people want to think that he should be in then fine.

Welcome to the forum :wave:

[Barreis]

They don't give a **** on all our talks. They drive 'cos they can and that's it.

[Daniel]

They don't give a **** on all our talks. They drive 'cos they can and that's it.

Do you think I'm posting on here like some angry person hoping that if I keep on going on that Wilson will stop driving? :laugh:

[Barreis]

We're not angry, just debate..

[pino]

You ask NOT who he is to judge Wilson? Well if we're going to be silly then who are you to comment on what NOT has said? Who is Pino to agree with you? Who ate my cookie?

This is a discussion forum and people are going to have opinions on drivers and teams.

Daniel you can discuss and criticise a driver without being rude or insulting a driver as a few do in here unfortunatelly. Saying Wilson is a disgrace for the sport it's both rude and stupid, that's why I agree with m.lowe ! Now once again let's quit personal comment and continue this nicely or this thread will be closed !

[cannyboy]

Who are you N.O.T and others to judge any driver out there competing whether they get results or dont do as good as others?
What you said about him being a disgrace to the sport is such a stupid comment
what disgrace has Matthew brought to the sport?
Ok he might not be a Loeb or Hirvonen or other drivers but why does that make people slag him off.
Ok his 5 year plan hasn't gone to plan like it was thought, but nothing in life is guaranteed is it? and hes only human afterall

whats the big deal that hes not getting the results it was hoped that would be predicted
Next you will be blaming the events for not being nice and smooth and not making cars break on events

+1
There are some posters on this forum that ruin it by their constant miserableness.
If you have that much to complain about your sport of choice, it may be time to consider a new sport.
Threads are constantly being derailed by a group of clowns who find it painful to post anything positive, and ruins the mood of the place.
I would imagine that this forum would be a better place in their absence, and a hell of a lot more popular.

Some of the posting by these people are a bloody embarassment for a public form, and have no place on a decent informational rally site.
The rudeness and behaviour of the few in comments about current and older drivers is a sad reflection on these posters, and adds nothing to the place.

[pino]

+1
There are some posters on this forum that ruin it by their constant miserableness.
If you have that much to complain about your sport of choice, it may be time to consider a new sport.
Threads are constantly being derailed by a group of clowns who find it painful to post anything positive, and ruins the mood of the place.
I would imagine that this forum would be a better place in their absence, and a hell of a lot more popular.

Some of the posting by these people are a bloody embarassment for a public form, and have no place on a decent informational rally site.
The rudeness and behaviour of the few in comments about current and older drivers is a sad reflection on these posters, and adds nothing to the place.

You should've posted that in This Thread (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?141845-Rally-forum-discussions-and-comments.&p=908398#post908398)

Now can we go back to Wilson pleeeease :)

[alfred the grea]

Matti Wilson is a good driver, but not WRC spec. He did well in BRC. I blame his parents.

People are right to moan about this as there are other drivers in UK who would have done much much better in WRC, given Ford and their sponsors better coverage ( i assume that is what sponsors want ), Meeke, Wilks etc etc. When Matti Wilson started WRc these 2 drivers alone would run rings round Matti. By papa Wilson putting Matti in the car year after year (with no proper results) they have been depriving the UK of a possible WRC star

[J.Lindstroem]

Matti Wilson is a good driver, but not WRC spec. He did well in BRC. I blame his parents.

People are right to moan about this as there are other drivers in UK who would have done much much better in WRC, given Ford and their sponsors better coverage ( i assume that is what sponsors want ), Meeke, Wilks etc etc. When Matti Wilson started WRc these 2 drivers alone would run rings round Matti. By papa Wilson putting Matti in the car year after year (with no proper results) they have been depriving the UK of a possible WRC star

Very nice and dramatic written Alfred, but i do have to say that you are a bit wrong there. M-Sport hasn't deprived anyone or anything. Its not like Matt Wilson took the Ford seat before the eyes of Wilks or Meeke. Even without Wilson in the Word, neither Meeke or Wilson would have got a drive like that in a Ford to become the next star from the UK. I guess it is easy to say that Wilson has filling someone elses spot, but by saying that you show that you don't know how everything is. Without Matthew Wilson in the Stobart, there would just be a car less.

BTW Wilks had his chances in the Ford, and he wasn't brilliant i have to say. Naah. The discussion of Matthew is totally stupid. I see nothing strange with Malcolm wanting to help his son to do the thing he loves. (i suppose every father would if they could).

[m.lowe]

I have to laugh at those saying hes took the seat that someone else could of done better.
go and send an email to Andrew Tinkler or Willie Stobart and yap on, they will soon tell you where to go or they might file your mail under crap

I agree this is a discussion forum but why the need to get childish and get personal over something that dosn't really change your way of life
well to some it must or they wouldn't type the rubbish we are reading about slagging drivers off

And Daniel
as for telling me to grow up, i'm not the one whinging like a little schoolboy because Matthew Wilson dosn't do it for you lol

[Doon]

It is this quote that I found most disturbing from the Autosport interview;

"If you listened that kind of stuff, you'd be pissed off every day," said Wilson. "At the end of the day, if that's what they want to twine about, then let them. But let's not forget, if they wanted to go rallying, they had the same chance as me. Okay, I had a leg up, but we've still had to bring the money to the table."

That is utter b*ll****, he's is totally delusional.......there are not many people who have had any where near the chance he has to go rallying, and a 'leg up'....thats playing it down a little.

I'm not bashing his skills as a driver because there is simply no point, but why does he keep saying that he has to bring the money to the table when everyone knows where it comes from? I thought he had money for only one rally at the start of the season? Then for 6 events?......and he'll probably find a budget for the whole season.....what a surprise!! 4 million quid (or whatever sum it might be) does not just pop out from nowhere, and with his results I can't see anyone wanting to invest that kind of capital. I as a Clubman driver have never even found someone who will pay for my fuel or tyres etc.....so no, not everyone has the same chance :)

I agree with the Block thing, as i've said before. I think he's a top bloke who is realistic about his ability, and realises that he is fortunate just to be doing the same events in similar cars as these top class folk. He adds personality to the WRC and opens it up to a wider audience, no matter who it is! I also think within a year or so KB will be quicker than MW, he's almost there now.

[alfred the grea]

Very nice and dramatic written Alfred, but i do have to say that you are a bit wrong there. M-Sport hasn't deprived anyone or anything. Its not like Matt Wilson took the Ford seat before the eyes of Wilks or Meeke. Even without Wilson in the Word, neither Meeke or Wilson would have got a drive like that in a Ford to become the next star from the UK. I guess it is easy to say that Wilson has filling someone elses spot, but by saying that you show that you don't know how everything is. Without Matthew Wilson in the Stobart, there would just be a car less.

BTW Wilks had his chances in the Ford, and he wasn't brilliant i have to say. Naah. The discussion of Matthew is totally stupid. I see nothing strange with Malcolm wanting to help his son to do the thing he loves. (i suppose every father would if they could).

I see your point, and it is a valid one and i take it on board. I myself am always wary when i see a father helping a son to this extent. What will play on the sons mind when his peers are looking to see what he has achieved? Matti is very very lucky to have had the chances, travelling the world, driving the most awesome rallies in the most awesome rally cars, meeting amazing and interesting people, yes i would love to have done that, the experiences etc, I myself grab every opportunity for adventures and new experiences, on that basis i have had a fairly good life so far, travelled, been in a few scrapes, had some big adventures. In my mind I have done all this on my own, in my mind I do not consider it makes me better, but gives me something Matti has not. Maybe Matti could have been the worlds best brain surgeon or some other fantastic thing, we will never know, he certainly is not the best WRC driver, that we know for sure above everything else. I would love to know what he really thinks when he is older and wiser (and also what the top drivers really think about him, is it ‘oh theres mummys boy Matti, ha ha?) Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. Also his mum and dad are always hanging around him, that can’t be much fun when in your early 20’s

[fastboy]

His level of pace this season has been good when the car has been trouble free,Portugal day 1 he was about a second a k from fastest times.While i don't believe he can get a podium this season i think he will show decent pace on the rest of the gravel rallies.I think it was a massive set back having the terrible injuries from his crash in 2005 .The fact he is close to his parents is the fact that they built him back up from a real low point, and i know that they are terrified that this might happen again,so want to be close during rallies.
The one area i feel they went wrong was the 5 year plan,it didnt push him enough to get good results early enough,meaning he was in a comfort zone,which is prooving hard to get out of.
The fact that A.Tinkler has kept him hanging about weather or not he will get a full budget is good ,and demands more speed from Matt before they cough up more money,this should of been what they did after the first 2 years.
I know he reads the forum so keep giving it your best shot Matt,you've got it in you youve just got to show it.

[tfp]

His level of pace this season has been good when the car has been trouble free,Portugal day 1 he was about a second a k from fastest times.While i don't believe he can get a podium this season i think he will show decent pace on the rest of the gravel rallies.I think it was a massive set back having the terrible injuries from his crash in 2005 .The fact he is close to his parents is the fact that they built him back up from a real low point, and i know that they are terrified that this might happen again,so want to be close during rallies.
The one area i feel they went wrong was the 5 year plan,it didnt push him enough to get good results early enough,meaning he was in a comfort zone,which is prooving hard to get out of.
The fact that A.Tinkler has kept him hanging about weather or not he will get a full budget is good ,and demands more speed from Matt before they cough up more money,this should of been what they did after the first 2 years.
I know he reads the forum so keep giving it your best shot Matt,you've got it in you youve just got to show it.

Thats exactly what I think, and I stand by what I say, he came ito the sport at the top level too early, nstead of working his way up through R2 cars, etc like meeke. Maybe the 5 year plan was a bad idea, and I think this(limited sponsership) is the kick up the arse he needs to get good results.

Imagine if he gets a podium in Jordan, that will silence a few people in here :D

Very best of luck to Matt :up:

[N.O.T]

you've got it in you youve just got to show it.

LOL....

[N.O.T]

Imagine if he gets a podium in Jordan, that will silence a few people in here :D

Very best of luck to Matt :up:

getting a podium being 30 minutes off the leader would be a true revelation....in portugal he would be on podium with 8 minutes to the leader....yet for some that would be a success..the fastest this joke ends the better for the sport.

[Doon]

His level of pace this season has been good when the car has been trouble free,Portugal day 1 he was about a second a k from fastest times.While i don't believe he can get a podium this season i think he will show decent pace on the rest of the gravel rallies.I think it was a massive set back having the terrible injuries from his crash in 2005 .The fact he is close to his parents is the fact that they built him back up from a real low point, and i know that they are terrified that this might happen again,so want to be close during rallies.
The one area i feel they went wrong was the 5 year plan,it didnt push him enough to get good results early enough,meaning he was in a comfort zone,which is prooving hard to get out of.
The fact that A.Tinkler has kept him hanging about weather or not he will get a full budget is good ,and demands more speed from Matt before they cough up more money,this should of been what they did after the first 2 years.
I know he reads the forum so keep giving it your best shot Matt,you've got it in you youve just got to show it.

Please show us an example of him 'having it in him', after 6 years at the top level in a top car?

Don't get me wrong I want him to be quick and supported him in his early years, but now he really has something to prove......and won't/can't deliver. He doesn't have it in him. He'd win the British championship (which he should have done first), which is an achievement in itself, but will never challenge in the WRC.

[sollitt]

getting a podium being 30 minutes off the leader would be a true revelation....in portugal he would be on podium with 8 minutes to the leader....yet for some that would be a success..the fastest this joke ends the better for the sport.

So just trying to understand your logic here NOT.

For Wilson to have made the podium in Portugal two competitors who finished ahead of him would have needed to have dropped out.
If those two didn't include Ogier the gap (1st to 3rd) would have been 8 minutes and, in your view, that's sufficient justification for Wilson not to be there.
Yet if those same two competitors had dropped out, and Wilson wasn't there, the gap (1st to 3rd) would have been 11 minutes. But that's OK, better for the sport in your view.

Hmmm, confused anyone?

[tfp]

So just trying to understand your logic here NOT.

For Wilson to have made the podium in Portugal two competitors who finished ahead of him would have needed to have dropped out.
If those two didn't include Ogier the gap (1st to 3rd) would have been 8 minutes and, in your view, that's sufficient justification for Wilson not to be there.
Yet if those same two competitors had dropped out, and Wilson wasn't there, the gap (1st to 3rd) would have been 11 minutes. But that's OK, better for the sport in your view.

Hmmm, confused anyone?

Certainly am. Half the skill in rallying is actually making it to the end in one piece, after all.

[N.O.T]

So just trying to understand your logic here NOT.

For Wilson to have made the podium in Portugal two competitors who finished ahead of him would have needed to have dropped out.
If those two didn't include Ogier the gap (1st to 3rd) would have been 8 minutes and, in your view, that's sufficient justification for Wilson not to be there.
Yet if those same two competitors had dropped out, and Wilson wasn't there, the gap (1st to 3rd) would have been 11 minutes. But that's OK, better for the sport in your view.

Hmmm, confused anyone?

you missed the point once more....

I was trying to make you (not you personally) understand that podiums do not mean anything if they come due to the fast guys drop out or having problems.... so if for example wilson was 3rd 10 minutes behind would mean a lot less if for example was 2 minutes behind and was 6th/8th ects....

[sollitt]

you missed the point once more....

I was trying to make you (not you personally) understand that podiums do not mean anything if they come due to the fast guys drop out or having problems.... so if for example wilson was 3rd 10 minutes behind would mean a lot less if for example was 2 minutes behind and was 6th/8th ects....

I tend to agree to some extent. If you're not 1st then you are just somewhere else in my book. Podiums are nothing to shout home about unless something exceptional occurs ... like a 0.3 second split.
However in all sports they have become something to celebrate and there's probably no reason why rallying ought be any different.
And as for fast guys dropping out ... that's just a part of the game. As tfp has stated you don't score unless you get to the end. You cannot bag the slower guy for picking up the result because the faster guy can't bolt his car together or chucks it off the road.

[MrJan]

you missed the point once more....

I was trying to make you (not you personally) understand that podiums do not mean anything if they come due to the fast guys drop out or having problems.... so if for example wilson was 3rd 10 minutes behind would mean a lot less if for example was 2 minutes behind and was 6th/8th ects....

TBH that says more about the poor entry of manufacturers into the WRC at the minute.

[N.O.T]

exactly thats why i judge performances counting the difference from first rather than the place the driver finishes.

[Daniel]

I tend to agree to some extent. If you're not 1st then you are just somewhere else in my book. Podiums are nothing to shout home about unless something exceptional occurs ... like a 0.3 second split.
However in all sports they have become something to celebrate and there's probably no reason why rallying ought be any different.
And as for fast guys dropping out ... that's just a part of the game. As tfp has stated you don't score unless you get to the end. You cannot bag the slower guy for picking up the result because the faster guy can't bolt his car together or chucks it off the road.

I agree with you on this. If Wilson got a podium on his own merits then it's his podium and that's that. Still doesn't change my opinion of his driving though and I think the podium should be remembered within the context that it came in but a podium is a podium :)

[bowler]

However you look at it, Mathew Wilson is the best performing English rally driver today.

That may not sit comfortably with those who wish to express their envy of a person who happens to have better connections and positioning than many others.

Sports in general, and motorsport in particular always have many people who, through their own personal circumstances, are in a better position than others. Nothing is new in this argument.

It is just that we are able to express our envy, and figure that somehow because they don't perform thay are worse than others who don't perform in an event.

Rallying is most unusual in that the best and the worst can compete against each other in a top level event. With today's competitors there are realistically only 4 drivers who can win.

If we follow the logic of some of the arguments above we would only be watching 4 cars.

Mathew Wilson provides a target for those below him to attain. Imagine the pleasure of those who struggle and beat Mathew, or those that get close.

Rallying is better with more competitors, not less, so get over the Mathew Wilson issues and concentrate on the gains of the lesser pilots who will grow to be champions

[Daniel]

You couldn't be more wrong to say that people envy him.

[tfp]

You couldn't be more wrong to say that people envy him.

Bit harsh...

[N.O.T]

However you look at it, Mathew Wilson is the best performing English rally driver today.



meeke, wilks...

Bye.

[Daniel]

However you look at it, Mathew Wilson is the best performing English rally driver today.

Forgot to mention as well, what should nationality have to do with it? I hate this sort of quota thing that people have that there should be a British driver or a Swedish driver or a French driver..... We should just have the best drivers from wherever.

[wroom]

With the new entries from Mini and possibly others (VW?) bringing more competitive cars into the sport, we're likely to see poor Matthew slip further and further back in the results in the coming years.

It must be an absolute joy to be able to drive the WRC for a living, but in this case it won't get him much fame and respect. Perhaps he'd be better off working for the (Ford) team management? Or take a year out in a national series to gain some confidence and compare his speed.

[wrc1600]

Mathew started as an average driver like any of us who has got driving licence but he's got huge support from daddy, others can only dream of. I do not want to judge him, his just lucky to be there and do rallying for living. Unfortunatelly his achivements place him among drivers like Villagra or Al Qassimi, you can argue that but stage times and no podium so far tell us all. We can not envy him for what his doing but I find him quite arrogant for what he says. If he is as good as he says then he wasted 5 years, huge money and all the support from M-Sport.

[Fly_Half]

it won't get him much fame and respect.....................Or take a year out in a national series to gain some confidence and compare his speed.

To be honest, I doubt he's doing it to gain "fame and respect". The only driver you can genuinely class as 'famous' outside of the sport is the late Colin McRae. Loeb to some extent, but he hasn't really transcended the sport as Colin did.

On your other point, Wilson has already proven that he's well above the pace of any national level drivers here in the UK. Obviously he's not on the pace of the top 5 WRC drivers, but then who is?

I'd also say that some of the personal attacks on Wilson on this forum are nothing short of a disgrace and really the Mods should tighten up in that respect. Fair enough criticising his driving capabilities, but calling him a 'twat' and a 'disgrace to the sport' as I've read some people do is completely unacceptable.

[tfp]

To be honest, I doubt he's doing it to gain "fame and respect". The only driver you can genuinely class as 'famous' outside of the sport is the late Colin McRae. Loeb to some extent, but he hasn't really transcended the sport as Colin did.

On your other point, Wilson has already proven that he's well above the pace of any national level drivers here in the UK. Obviously he's not on the pace of the top 5 WRC drivers, but then who is?

I'd also say that some of the personal attacks on Wilson on this forum are nothing short of a disgrace and really the Mods should tighten up in that respect. Fair enough criticising his driving capabilities, but calling him a 'twat' and a 'disgrace to the sport' as I've read some people do is completely unacceptable.

+1 :up: Well said.

[Woodeye]

I'd also say that some of the personal attacks on Wilson on this forum are nothing short of a disgrace and really the Mods should tighten up in that respect. Fair enough criticising his driving capabilities, but calling him a 'twat' and a 'disgrace to the sport' as I've read some people do is completely unacceptable.

Well said. :up:

[Tomi]

I think the whole project Wilson has been quite interesting to follow from the start to now in the way, how good can sombody who can not drive a rally car become if he get all possible opportunities to reach the top, what I dont understand again is why so many forum members are conserned about how family Wilson spend their own money.

[DazzlaF1]

To be honest, I doubt he's doing it to gain "fame and respect". The only driver you can genuinely class as 'famous' outside of the sport is the late Colin McRae. Loeb to some extent, but he hasn't really transcended the sport as Colin did.

On your other point, Wilson has already proven that he's well above the pace of any national level drivers here in the UK. Obviously he's not on the pace of the top 5 WRC drivers, but then who is?

I'd also say that some of the personal attacks on Wilson on this forum are nothing short of a disgrace and really the Mods should tighten up in that respect. Fair enough criticising his driving capabilities, but calling him a 'twat' and a 'disgrace to the sport' as I've read some people do is completely unacceptable.

Well said

Calling him a disgrace to the sport is nothing short of despicable when he has certainly done nothing to warrant such hatred.

[MrJan]

Forgot to mention as well, what should nationality have to do with it? I hate this sort of quota thing that people have that there should be a British driver or a Swedish driver or a French driver..... We should just have the best drivers from wherever.

It's never going to happen. Some are more equal than others, innit. I maintain that somewhere there are handfuls of those with the natural talents of Schumacher, Loeb, Senna, Mikkola et al but they just haven't had the chances/money to even have a go at competing, let alone the chances to get to the highest echelons. It may be wrong but it's a fact of life, those with Lewis Hamilton type stories are extremely rare, we sort of have to accept that we'll always have reasonable drivers with Daddy's that own car dealerships etc. rather than super fast drivers whose daddy is a butcher.

Thus you'll always get an English driver because they have English sponsors who don't have anyone else that they want to plough money into. This has been my point regarding Stobart and Wilson

[noel157]

However you look at it, Mathew Wilson is the best performing English rally driver today.

That may not sit comfortably with those who wish to express their envy of a person who happens to have better connections and positioning than many others.

Sports in general, and motorsport in particular always have many people who, through their own personal circumstances, are in a better position than others. Nothing is new in this argument.

It is just that we are able to express our envy, and figure that somehow because they don't perform thay are worse than others who don't perform in an event.

Rallying is most unusual in that the best and the worst can compete against each other in a top level event. With today's competitors there are realistically only 4 drivers who can win.

If we follow the logic of some of the arguments above we would only be watching 4 cars.

Mathew Wilson provides a target for those below him to attain. Imagine the pleasure of those who struggle and beat Mathew, or those that get close.

Rallying is better with more competitors, not less, so get over the Mathew Wilson issues and concentrate on the gains of the lesser pilots who will grow to be champions


What an absolute load of dung. Sure, throw down the envy card on the table to try and justify such nonsense.

"It is just that we are able to express our envy, and figure that somehow because they don't perform thay are worse than others who don't perform in an event."

What is that supposed to mean? It makes no sense whatsoever. Somebody who doesn't perform is worse than somebody else who doesn't perform? Sure, whatever.

"Mathew Wilson provides a target for those below him to attain. Imagine the pleasure of those who struggle and beat Mathew, or those that get close." Those that are below him? A target to attain? What are you on about? Are you saying that there are competitors who actually see Wilson as a benchmark? What planet are you on?

"Rallying is better with more competitors, not less, so get over the Mathew Wilson issues and concentrate on the gains of the lesser pilots who will grow to be champions". Any "lesser pilots" in mind? "Lesser" than Wilson?

Wilson may not be a disgrace to the WRC but he's hardly a shining example of what can be achieved through talent and determination. Is he a waste of resources? Of course he is. Could those resources be better spent with a better return? Of course.
If I were in a position to fund my son the way Papa Wilson and his business friends do I daresay I would but only if he had the talent and the driving ability to at least challenge for podium positions and set decent times. If he didn't I would soon find something where he could be a success or let him get on with things on his own. Papa Wilson doesn't seem to mind that his son is generally thought of as "the boss's son" (with all the negativity that goes with that title) so results and a proper return on such a large investment aren't really important. The difference is that I and my son would mind. I frankly, would be ashamed to be in Wilson's position and my son sure as hell would feel the same to be in Junior's position as well, especially after 6 years of trying. The money should be spent on trying to nurture an emerging talent. But of course, it's not my money so the man can do as he pleases with it, doesn't mean I have to agree.

[tfp]

:s mokin: Admin! :D

[A.F.F.]

But can we say Matthew has reached the peak of his speed, his development? I think we can. A few years ago :mark:

[Sulland]

Matt W is doing WRC because;
- he can
- he likes it
- he is being groomed in to take over MSport, and then he need the practical experience.
- he is not stopping anyone else from buying a seat in the MSport conglomerate.


If we were in his shoes, we would all have grabbed the same opportunity - just admit it !!
Cheers :beer:

[Daniel]

If we were in his shoes, we would all have grabbed the same opportunity - just admit it !!
Cheers :beer:


Perhaps you would be content with doing what he's doing, some of us expect more from ourself than what Matt has delivered.

[m.lowe]

Perhaps you would be content with doing what he's doing, some of us expect more from ourself than what Matt has delivered.
Wind ya neck in Daniel with ya silly comment
Pay for his seat then have a go at him when he dosnt deliver for you

[Daniel]

Wind ya neck in Daniel with ya silly comment
Pay for his seat then have a go at him when he dosnt deliver for you

What are you on about? Sulland says that we would all do the same and I'm saying that if I was in his position that I wouldn't as I expect more from myself.

[Tumbo]

So to recap having just ummm read (if I can call it that) through the 6 pages of this thread - we have young Wilson who is definitely not at a pace which propels him into the top part of this sport, in fact on results and from past experience we can safely say his is mid-tier at best; in a seat which he got by virtue of his name and what he was able to bring to the table and which he has stayed in (this is no different to at least 3 current drivers in F1 probably most equivalent to Williams and the replacement of Hulkenberg w/ Pastor Maldonado) for the past 5 seasons.

Now obviously some people admire him for his talent and other feel he shouldn't be in the sport (given how few drivers we have currently losing another competitor would be a real positive move I think really good idea this one) and obviously have an active dislike to him 'disgrace to the sport' being bandied around among other comments. What I don't get is the active hate for having a driver in the sport. He hasn't achieved anything big, he isn't that quick no but he's there and he is certainly staying consistent.

Now it is plainly obvious that without Wilson Stobbart would not exist as a team; or at least only have 1 seat or another person in paying meaning someone of at least similar calibre would be putting around in at best a similar position. So what really would kicking him out of the WRC achieve? He has confidence (be it misplaced or whatnot) he obviously has drive even if he can't match it w/ raw speed; so why get rid of him - how is his competiting in this sport so deeply offending so many here (though to be honest I think NOT is on another fishing trip)?

The WRC has far more pressing problems than whether Wilson is in a competitive car or not - the fact that we have 2 manufacturers (thankfully more are returning) and are looking at changing rules mid-season should be of far more pressing concern yet it seems the vitriol here is never-ending?

[noel157]

Perhaps you would be content with doing what he's doing, some of us expect more from ourself than what Matt has delivered.

+1. Exactly. Think some just don't get it.

[Sulland]

Perhaps you would be content with doing what he's doing, some of us expect more from ourself than what Matt has delivered.

What i tried to get across, bearing in mind that I am not a native speaker of either english or american, was that if he can and enjoys himself - why not, isnt that what life should be about enjoying the short periode we are here ?

And I think that very few of us in here have reached the same level in our occupations that he has in his ! And he has not gotten to where he is on just talent, but neither did Nigel Mansell, and he ended up being pretty good. Both has gotten to where they are on hard work, like most of us !!

So enjoy life guys, sit in the evening sunlight with a cold beer :)

[MikeD]

+1. Exactly. Think some just don't get it.

+1

[noel157]

What i tried to get across, bearing in mind that I am not a native speaker of either english or american, was that if he can and enjoys himself - why not, isnt that what life should be about enjoying the short periode we are here ?

And I think that very few of us in here have reached the same level in our occupations that he has in his ! And he has not gotten to where he is on just talent, but neither did Nigel Mansell, and he ended up being pretty good. Both has gotten to where they are on hard work, like most of us !!

So enjoy life guys, sit in the evening sunlight with a cold beer :)

I've a feeling young Wilson did not have to sell his house and most of his possessions to finance his WRC drive as Mansell had to do to fund a season in FF.

[sollitt]

Matt W is doing WRC because;
- he can
- he likes it
- he is being groomed in to take over MSport, and then he need the practical experience.
- he is not stopping anyone else from buying a seat in the MSport conglomerate.


If we were in his shoes, we would all have grabbed the same opportunity - just admit it !!
Cheers :beer:

Most sensible post of the thread ... bar none!

[Daniel]

Most sensible post of the thread ... bar none!

Obviously you also seem to be of the school of thought where one doesn't ask much of yourself :)

[bowler]

What you ask of yourself is up to you. If you choose to judge others by that standard you need to demonstrate what you have done. We know what Wilson has done, and some disapprove despite not having the wherewithal or ability to come close.

To me it looks like pure envy now matter how you wish to package it

Stump up and do better if you can

[Daniel]

So the right to be critical is only for the rich?

[noel157]

What you ask of yourself is up to you. If you choose to judge others by that standard you need to demonstrate what you have done. We know what Wilson has done, and some disapprove despite not having the wherewithal or ability to come close.

To me it looks like pure envy now matter how you wish to package it

Stump up and do better if you can

As daft as your last post. Envy? You are obviously jealous of Wilson but please don't assume everyone else is.

[bowler]

As daft as your last post. Envy? You are obviously jealous of Wilson but please don't assume everyone else is.

I don't know how you could draw the conclusion that I am jealous of Mathew Wilson.

I would love to do what he is doing, but I can't, and couldn't. I can't drive that well, which is a whole lot better than most of us even if some choose to crticise.

As I said earlier he is currently the best English rally driver, by results, so let him get on with it.

I've been around this sport for a while Noel, and there are always people who are better than others. There are Champions and wannabe champions. It is the wannabes that provide the evidence of how great a champion is. Mathew will never be one of the "Greats" but he will always be better than you and me. (I make the assumption that you have not entered the WRC points table yet either)

[Wim_Impreza]

As I said earlier he is currently the best English rally driver, by results, so let him get on with it.

Do you really mean this?

[bowler]

Do you really mean this?

Yes

There are many drivers who claim that other drivers are better, but none have the WRC points. ARguably that is because they haven't had the chance, but the world is full of "if only" champions in every sport.

1. France S. LOEB 10 27 21 16 74
2. Finland M. HIRVONEN 25 21 12 14 72
3. France S. OGIER 15 R 26 28 69
4. Finland J. LATVALA 16 15 17 18 66
5. Norway P. SOLBERG 10 13 8 R 31
6. Norway M. OSTBERG 18 10 0 0 28
7. Great Britain M. WILSON 2 R 10 10 22
8. Finland K. RAIKKONEN 4 - 6 8 18
9. Argentina F. VILLAGRA - 2 4 6 12
10. Norway H. SOLBERG 0 8 2 0 10
11. Sweden P. ANDERSSON 6 - - - 6
12. M. PROKOP 0 6 - - 6
13. K. AL QASSIMI 1 - 0 4 5
14. Finland J. HANNINEN - 4 - - 4
15. D. KUIPERS 0 R 1 2 3
16. O. TANAK - 1 - - 1
17. Portugal B. SOUSA 1 1
18. Qatar N. AL-ATTIYAH - Excl - R

Currently, he is the best English rally driver, by points.

Whether people are happy with the reality is irrelevant. That is what it is.

[Daniel]

And if I was in the wrc I'd be the best Australian driver. It's a meaningless claim and you know it bpwler

[bowler]

And if I was in the wrc I'd be the best Australian driver. It's a meaningless claim and you know it bowler

yes you would be, but you aren't, and therein lies the distinction.

[Daniel]

So the right to criticise is only for the rich?

[bowler]

Any fool can criticise, and most do.

It is nothing to do with money, it is about credentials

[noel157]

Bowler,
And any fool can say that anybody who has the audacity to be critical of a driver must be jealous, sound familiar?
So to date you've called us jealous and fools. Should get far with that argument....
And if you don't think it's all about money you clearly are living in La La Land.

As said earlier you just don't get it, do you?

[Daniel]

Bowler, I assume you know where the door is? Feel free to use it

[AndyRAC]

Not winning the BRC has been a 'bonus'. Winning it is normally a kiss of death for drivers; Rowe, Higgins, Evans, Cronin, etc All of whom were/are much faster than him.

[Bobcat]

Currently, he is the best English rally driver, by points.

Whether Peugeot-Citroen fans are happy with the reality is irrelevant. That is what it is.
+1

[Coach 2]

I'm not a big M.W. fan, but which English driver is with great certainty faster than MW
And if anyone thinks another is better, do you think he would compete with the big five.

[N.O.T]

Meeke and wilks are far better...and if they had the support this kid had all these years they would certainly be on par with hirvonen at least.

[Daniel]

+1

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

[Daniel]

I'm not a big M.W. fan, but which English driver is with great certainty faster than MW
And if anyone thinks another is better, do you think he would compete with the big five.

What does it matter that he's English? It may matter in terms of marketing that he's British, but I doubt it matters that he's English and as NOT has said, there are 2 better British drivers.

[Allyc85]

Meeke and wilks are far better...and if they had the support this kid had all these years they would certainly be on par with hirvonen at least.

I agree for once :)

[Coach 2]

I do not mean to be overbearing, but I think one of the problems with the argument of some participants of this forum is that you do not understand how good the best is.
This results in unnecessary criticism of the second best. I also believe that the vast majority of drivers would be second best.

[Daniel]

I do not mean to be overbearing, but I think one of the problems with the argument of some participants of this forum is that you do not understand how good the best is.
This results in unnecessary criticism of the second best. I also believe that the vast majority of drivers would be second best.

Not to be funny but I've seen the following CHAMPIONS in action.

Stig Blomqvist
Juha Kankkunen
Carlos Sainz
Didier Auriol
Miki Biasion
Colin McRae
Tommi Makinen
Marcus Gronholm
Richard Burns
Petter Solberg
Sebastien Loeb

I also picked that Sebastien Loeb was going to be a top driver before he started winning rallies....

I've also seen everything from a Delecour to a Matty Wilson......

I respectfully disagree that i don't understand how good the best is. Sure there can only be one champion each year but that doesn't change the fact that Matty is crap.

[Coach 2]

Remember that I wrote some of the participants. This will say that I mean some of the arguments.
How Malcolm is preparing his son to take over Msport at a later date, is their choice.

[noel157]

Remember that I wrote some of the participants. This will say that I mean some of the arguments.
How Malcolm is preparing his son to take over Msport at a later date, is their choice.

I don't think anybody is disputing what M-Sport can and cannot do, it's their and their sponsors' funds. What they do and plan to do is their prerogative. But does that mean we all have to agree with what Wilson et al do? No, of course not and that is my/our prerogative.
I think most know and are familiar with the calibre of a champion driver.
Sure, as Daniel said there can only be one champion every season but that does not automatically mean that those drivers that do not win a title do not deserve praise and respect. We all know that there are many drivers that could contend or at least be podium regulars if they had the breaks and the finance to compete on a regular basis. Wilson has had those breaks and the finance to compete every rally for the past 6 years and achieved, well, nothing. Not even a P3. Yes, he's the best English, British, whatever in the WRC at the moment but of course he's also the only English driver in the WRC at the moment. Yes, statistically true but of such little value.
Would be interesting if the boy Wilson did an Antony Warmbold and joined the forum. I have no doubt he's a nice guy, he just isn't really much of a WRC driver.

[sollitt]

Daniel, I absolutely agree that it matters not whether MW is British or from any other planet, and I would have no idea whether or not there are 'better' British drivers. Suggestions that any (meekes, wilkes or other) would perform more creditably in the WRC are speculative at best.

I also agree that one need not be in a position to, or able to, out perform MW to be entitled to critique. In fact constructive intelligent comment and criticism is one of the purposes of this forum.

Unfortunately though, what we are getting from you and new beau NOT is not justifiable intelligent criticism but rather a continual barrage of personal abuse and attack using as a basis unfounded and outrageous statements which are nothing more than childish insults.

Rather than continue down this vein how about providing some insight, facts and figures which support any or all of your arguments. Healthy intelligent debate is what this forum is about. There is no place for personal abuse targeted at others just going about their business for the sake your own gratification.

[Coach 2]

You say:
We all know that there are many drivers that could contend or at least be podium regulars if they had the breaks and the finance to compete on a regular basis.

It is precisely such a statement I disagree with.
There are very few who will be able to perform at that level.
As I wrote earlier, I think many of you underestimate what it takes to compete with the top 5.

[tfp]

I wonder how much criticism wilsons critics would get if they participated in the WRC, after they finish outside the top 5:D

[Daniel]

You say:
We all know that there are many drivers that could contend or at least be podium regulars if they had the breaks and the finance to compete on a regular basis.

It is precisely such a statement I disagree with.
There are very few who will be able to perform at that level.
As I wrote earlier, I think many of you underestimate what it takes to compete with the top 5.

I completely disagree. I think in this day and age you completely overestimate what it takes to finish in the top 5 today as opposed to back in 2002/2003.

It's impossible to say whether Bruce, myself, Noel or anyone else could win a rally, get a podium or finish outside the top 20 because it's not going to happen and we have to compare Matty's performances to people who are actually rallying at a high level and if you do that he compares pretty poorly.

[Daniel]

Daniel, I absolutely agree that it matters not whether MW is British or from any other planet, and I would have no idea whether or not there are 'better' British drivers. Suggestions that any (meekes, wilkes or other) would perform more creditably in the WRC are speculative at best.

I also agree that one need not be in a position to, or able to, out perform MW to be entitled to critique. In fact constructive intelligent comment and criticism is one of the purposes of this forum.

Unfortunately though, what we are getting from you and new beau NOT is not justifiable intelligent criticism but rather a continual barrage of personal abuse and attack using as a basis unfounded and outrageous statements which are nothing more than childish insults.

Rather than continue down this vein how about providing some insight, facts and figures which support any or all of your arguments. Healthy intelligent debate is what this forum is about. There is no place for personal abuse targeted at others just going about their business for the sake your own gratification.

Bruce, I think you need to look back and see what I've said, or not said as it were. I've not called Matty a disgrace or anything.

I want a healthy and competitive WRC and for the last few years what was needed for that was a strong M-Sport and we didn't get that. Now of course I'm not suggesting that simply ditching Matty's campaign would have turned the tables but surely running a driver who has little or no future in terms of a factory driver is a waste of time, money and resources when you're trying to fight for titles. I think M-Sport are IMHO going about things in the wrong way. They should be using Matty's seat to get some new talent in the pipeline or have grabbed a Sordo or Meeke and kept them there just in case they want to get rid of Mikko. I think Malcolm does a good job considering the lack of support he gets from Ford, but if he doesn't put 100% of the companys time and resources towards winning titles I feel that he risks his operation becoming a third or fourth fiddle when Prodrive come in and another manufacturer like VW or Toyota throws their hat into the ring. At the end of the day I couldn't care less whether Matty goes rallying or not, I just want good competition and that doesn't happen when you start throwing distractions into the mix and doing things that don't need to be done. Contrary to what some people think, I don't want to see Loeb and Citroen win every rally because that's bloody boring.

I've nothing personal against Matty, he seems a nice enough person if a bit naive and perhaps blind to his limitations but at least his WRC drive isn't funded by his dads dealings with an African dictator and dealings in conflict diamonds but of course this is another story!

All this talk of jealousy is just silly, one mans dream is another mans nightmare. You probably like selling TRD bits, some people might find it boring (personally it'd probably be my sort of thing), some people would love to be in a WRCar driving every event and just competing and some people like myself would want to be more than an also ran. We're all wired up differently.

[tfp]

The powerstage in jordan, there was wilson, kimi, henning, and mads(the "best of the rest") set their times first, then mikko, loeb, ogier and latvala(the top runners, petter missing obviously 'cos of his retirement) all finished around 12 seconds ahead of them give or take a few tenths. Theres a rabbit off there...

[Coach 2]

That Matthew has shown that he is not the most talented driver the world has seen, we can all agree.
But if I'm right in that there are few that would have been significantly better, he does not deserve such a harsh criticism he receives.
Remember that it was Malcolm who gave Peter a chance to show if he was someone to invest in.
We can probably all agree that he is/was significantly better than most drivers.

[Daniel]

That Matthew has shown that he is not the most talented driver the world has seen, we can all agree.
But if I'm right in that there are few that would have been significantly better, he does not deserve such a harsh criticism he receives.
Remember that it was Malcolm who gave Peter a chance to show if he was someone to invest in.
We can probably all agree that he is/was significantly better than most drivers.

Of course people deserve a chance. No one begrudges malcolm having given his son the opportunity those years ago, but it's gone past the stage where Mathew is probably going to do anything noteworthy in terms of a driving career, so perhaps the best way to groom him to take over M-Sport would be to give him the chance to take control of the Stobart Ford operation and let him cut his teeth there, it'll be of more use to him that just plodding his way through rallies with little pace.

Petter deserved his chance, anyone who saw him drive early in his career could see it from a mile off. I remember seeing Petter in New Zealand take a 4th place (admittedly after both Subaru's retired) and you just knew he was going to be big. Mathew has never shown this and sadly for the good of M-Sport in the long term, another role should be found for him where he can better help the team move forward, because I doubt the WRC is going to stay still over the next few years with new teams looking to come in.....

[6789]

If my Dad owned a manufacturer team, I'd drive in the team for sure :D

[N.O.T]

for how long ?? would you continue to spend your daddys money even if the results weren't there and there was no hope in you ?

[cali]

how long is this rubbish here going on?? your words does not change abit if Matty will drive or not se just calm down

[Daniel]

your words does not change abit if Matty will drive or not se just calm down

and you think I am somehow trying to exert pressure on Matty to quit? I'm a frigging person on a forum, I don't expect him to listen to me and that's not my intention. As for calming down, I'm not angry and you're not the boss of me.....

[Bobcat]

and you think I am somehow trying to exert pressure on Matty to quit? I'm a frigging person on a forum, I don't expect him to listen to me and that's not my intention. As for calming down, I'm not angry and you're not the boss of me.....Yeah your big boss is Quesnel but this is not new for us, lol.

[cali]

and you think I am somehow trying to exert pressure on Matty to quit? I'm a frigging person on a forum, I don't expect him to listen to me and that's not my intention. As for calming down, I'm not angry and you're not the boss of me.....

Ok, then please continue (eventhough I wasn't talking to you only), I actually find this topic amusing - bunch own grownups argueing over ....ermmmm...nothing :D
Let the best man win!

[noel157]

and you think I am somehow trying to exert pressure on Matty to quit? I'm a frigging person on a forum, I don't expect him to listen to me and that's not my intention. As for calming down, I'm not angry and you're not the boss of me.....

"Wilson retires"
Britain's only WRC driver has decided to retire for personal reasons. No reason was given by M-Sport but sources within the organisation have hinted that the shock revelation may be linked to the thoughts and opinions of various members of an internet site. No further official comment is expected.

Full story - http://www.autononsense.com

[Daniel]

Yeah your big boss is Quesnel but this is not new for us, lol.

Waaaaaaahmbulance for Bobby? Send it to M-Sport house, Cumbria.... QUICK!!!!!

[sollitt]

Daniel, congratulations on what appears at least to be a concilliatory tone in recent posts however, not wishing to invoke change, I must challenge a couple of statements.

Bruce, I think you need to look back and see what I've said, or not said as it were. I've not called Matty a disgrace or anything.
Just a few posts back you have suggested Matt is "crap". Earlier still you suggested that he clearly doesn't "ask much of himself".
Matt may not be threatening the podium anytime soon but he has shown that he can hold his own in the 2nd tier and is therefore hardly "crap".
I doubt you know, anymore than I, what expectation Matt sets himself but I would be surprised if it were not considerable. Lack of result is not always indictative of lack of application and there will always be a time in any sporting career when top results are simply unachievable.

We need to remember that when Matt joined the WRC 4 years ago he was still a kid with a little talent and a lot of support but with no experience. There's no doubt that he's improved over those years. Whether there's more to come is questionable but that's his issue to deal with.

You have written more than once that your dislike of Matt is due to his being a drain on resource, and a distraction, from the running of the WRC team.
I know nothing of how M-Sport is run however I would imagine that the resources (financial, manpower etc...) applied to the running of the 'A' team are a matter of contract between M-Sport and it's funders and that this remains unaffected by the running of a parallel, self funded, B team.


All this talk of jealousy is just silly, one mans dream is another mans nightmare. You probably like selling TRD bits, For the record, I didn't suggest that you were jealous nor do I sell "TRD bits".

The sport would be much the worse with the absence of self funded privateers and this forum would be a much better place if we embraced them rather than applying the tall poppy knocking machine.

[noel157]

Yeah your big boss is Quesnel but this is not new for us, lol.

So Bob, in case I missed it, what's your opinion of the lad Wilson? Your real opinion, not the Party line. And don't be getting a D-Rail shape on your rear :)

[noel157]

Daniel, congratulations on what appears at least to be a concilliatory tone in recent posts however, not wishing to invoke change, I must challenge a couple of statements.

Just a few posts back you have suggested Matt is "crap". Earlier still you suggested that he clearly doesn't "ask much of himself".
Matt may not be threatening the podium anytime soon but he has shown that he can hold his own in the 2nd tier and is therefore hardly "crap".
I doubt you know, anymore than I, what expectation Matt sets himself but I would be surprised if it were not considerable. Lack of result is not always indictative of lack of application and there will always be a time in any sporting career when top results are simply unachievable.

We need to remember that when Matt joined the WRC 4 years ago he was still a kid with a little talent and a lot of support but with no experience. There's no doubt that he's improved over those years. Whether there's more to come is questionable but that's his issue to deal with.

You have written more than once that your dislike of Matt is due to his being a drain on resource, and a distraction, from the running of the WRC team.
I know nothing of how M-Sport is run however I would imagine that the resources (financial, manpower etc...) applied to the running of the 'A' team are a matter of contract between M-Sport and it's funders and that this remains unaffected by the running of a parallel, self funded, B team.

For the record, I didn't suggest that you were jealous nor do I sell "TRD bits".

The sport would be much the worse with the absence of self funded privateers and this forum would be a much better place if we embraced them rather than applying the tall poppy knocking machine.

4th year? You sure Sollitt? I thought it was his 6th year this season. Although his first WRC outing was in 04 in RGB I think so maybe it's his 7th year. I get confused with all these year plan things.

[sollitt]

My records show he joined the series in 2006 so it's 5 seasons. I don't think you can count one off events in the previous 2 years.

[noel157]

Ok, so this is year 6 then. Thanks.

[Daniel]

You used to sell TRD bits I seem to remember, I take it things have changed.

I wasn't suggesting you had said that i was jealous, but a few people had thrown it around.

Crap is a relative term I guess. When I talk about decent drivers in the WRC I talk about the guys who can take wins or at the very least consistent stage wins based on pace and not because everyone has slowed down. He's certainly not a danger to himself or spectators like Rautenbach for example. Lets be honest, if Matty had done what most other drivers aspiring to earn seats in the WRC based on merit have had to do and get some loyal (non-family) sponsors to stump up the cash then he'd have been dumped years ago.

I agree that the sport would be worse off without self funded privateers. In the WRC it'd be just a few WRCars and some of the top group N guys and that would just be silly of course.

Of course the money is Malcolm's to spend how he wishes and if he wishes to spend it on his son doing the WRC in a top flight car then that's his perogative. But M-Sport are never going to have the cash that a proper works team has and logic would dictate that spending money on Matt all those years after he's debuted in cars which I'm sure are up to the job is perhaps not the best way to spend your way to success. I think we can agree that at some stage it would be more beneficial to Malcolm's ambitions of success to spend that money on someone who is potentially the next McRae and sow the seeds of success rather than trying to nourish a crop which doesn't look like it'll grow to be anything to be anything more than it already is.

Someone suggested that Matty's campaign has been part of grooming him to take over the reigns at M-Sport and that would make sense, Malcolm is an ex-driver, Guy Frequelin too and of course Dave Richards sat alongside Ari so it makes sense to be involved as a driver or co-driver, but perhaps it's time to move on to something where he gets to apply that knowledge for the better effect of the team.

I also question the value of chucking Matty in the deep end in a WRCar, it's normal for someone to learn to drive in a lower class before graduating because, well it just makes sense doesn't it?

People may think I just want to bash, but in reality I just want M-Sport to start doing things a bit differently. Malcolm just seems to have strange ways of doing things, his strategy with regards to his drivers exploiting the road positions isn't one that says to his drivers that he thinks they've got any chance of winning based on pure pace and I doubt this does anything for the drivers confidence and spending either his or his sponsors money on this fruitless exercise with Matty means that he's not able to nourish a rising talent to take over from Mikko if Mikko needs the boot or if Latvala decides to jump ship. Having a Wilks or a Meeke or even another young Finn in Matty's seat could be invaluable to M-Sport in the near future if they want to be fighting for titles because it's not going to get any easier with Mini coming in and VW likely to come in. If VW wave some money in Latvala's face, with Carlos at the helm and tell him how many millions of euros more they're going to spend than M-Sport then what do you think he'll do?

[BDunnell]

Of course the money is Malcolm's to spend how he wishes and if he wishes to spend it on his son doing the WRC in a top flight car then that's his perogative. But M-Sport are never going to have the cash that a proper works team has and logic would dictate that spending money on Matt all those years after he's debuted in cars which I'm sure are up to the job is perhaps not the best way to spend your way to success. I think we can agree that at some stage it would be more beneficial to Malcolm's ambitions of success to spend that money on someone who is potentially the next McRae and sow the seeds of success rather than trying to nourish a crop which doesn't look like it'll grow to be anything to be anything more than it already is.

Let's face it, one can look at all sorts of forms of motorsport and see drivers who have backing that gets them drives who aren't truly deserving on merit alone, and then see drivers who don't have backing who are far more deserving. Were you or I to have the money to back a driver, we would probably choose to spend it differently.

[Daniel]

Let's face it, one can look at all sorts of forms of motorsport and see drivers who have backing that gets them drives who aren't truly deserving on merit alone, and then see drivers who don't have backing who are far more deserving. Were you or I to have the money to back a driver, we would probably choose to spend it differently.

And therein lies the problem! Wilson should IMHO know better. If Wilson was Quesnel who had the luxury of having 2 Sebastien's and what seems to be the best car then splashing some of his or his sponsors cash on his son couldn't be perceived as being a possible drain on the team.

[BDunnell]

And therein lies the problem! Wilson should IMHO know better. If Wilson was Quesnel who had the luxury of having 2 Sebastien's and what seems to be the best car then splashing some of his or his sponsors cash on his son couldn't be perceived as being a possible drain on the team.

Likewise, had Jimmy McRae rather than David Richards been in charge of Prodrive, I don't think anyone would have objected to his giving Colin a seat.

[Daniel]

Likewise, had Jimmy McRae rather than David Richards been in charge of Prodrive, I don't think anyone would have objected to his giving Colin a seat.

Exactly. I have nothing against anyone giving their son a seat as long as they either deserve it on merit, or the money spent on the seat couldn't be better spent elsewhere.

[sollitt]

You used to sell TRD bits I seem to remember, I take it things have changed.
TRD sales was one small branch of a business that had a number of divisions. I sold that operation about 5 years ago.


I think we can agree that at some stage it would be more beneficial to Malcolm's ambitions of success to spend that money on someone who is potentially the next McRae and sow the seeds of success rather than trying to nourish a crop which doesn't look like it'll grow to be anything to be anything more than it already is.
No I don't believe we'd all agree with this at all. Not withstanding the fact that none of us know from whence the funding comes for Matt's rallying (and it's none of our business), to assume from the outside looking in that you know better what will benefit an already successful company than it's directors is actually incredibly arrogant.

As is this nonsense
I have nothing against anyone giving their son a seat as long as they either deserve it on merit, or the money spent on the seat couldn't be better spent elsewhere. Who are you to judge the value of someone else's spend or to determine that they owe the sport of rallying a debt of charity?

[wildsir]

Who are you to judge the value of someone else's spend or to determine that they owe the sport of rallying a debt of charity?
It was not us who said he was going to be world champion in 5 years. So its been a spectaluar failure. no?

[Daniel]

No I don't believe we'd all agree with this at all. Not withstanding the fact that none of us know from whence the funding comes for Matt's rallying (and it's none of our business), to assume from the outside looking in that you know better what will benefit an already successful company than it's directors is actually incredibly arrogant.

As is this nonsense Who are you to judge the value of someone else's spend or to determine that they owe the sport of rallying a debt of charity?

Come on Bruce, do you honestly feel that Matt's campaign serves M-Sport better than having someone else who is a future talent driving for them and developing their skills? Of course M-Sport don't HAVE to do this, but you have to consider the fact that this might just be more beneficial than Matty just plodding through rallies with little pace at all.

Are M-Sport that successful anyway? They've been the official Ford team since 1997 and in that time only have 2 manufacturers titles to their name and those were both earned in the least competitive era of the WRC. Sure they've not done as poorly as Seat or Hyundai, but for the time they've been in,that's a fairly poor record.

[Tomi]

Come on Bruce, do you honestly feel that Matt's campaign serves M-Sport better than having someone else who is a future talent driving for them and developing their skills? Of course M-Sport don't HAVE to do this, but you have to consider the fact that this might just be more beneficial than Matty just plodding through rallies with little pace at all.

Can be that they keep him driving so that they have a brittish driver in the WRC, I dont think that you can find anyone brittish who could realisticly fight for podiums at the moment, so its the same who drives for positions 5-9, especially if they are not so good in finding sponsorship.

[Wasted Talent]

What a pathetically negative thread.....

The anti-Matt Wilson brigade have a simple view that if you aren't winning then pack it in. Great - so we would have a WRC that consists of Loeb, Ogier and Citroen, every one else can go home.

Does Matt driving the Stobart Fiesta do anyone any harm? No.

If he wasn't there would someone else get the drive? No.

Does it add to the spectacle of the WRC in having another WRC car on every event? Yes

Lots of armchair drivers on here.....I would love to see how they would fare against the top drivers in the world.

There can only ever be a single winner and we have been fortunate to see probably the best rally driver ever win the title in recent years. Mikko Hirvonen is a superlative driver but even he has fallen slightly short when compared to Loeb these last few years. To be only one or maybe two seconds per kilometre slower than Loeb is mightily impressive whatever your background and funding.

Some people really do need to get a life...............

WT

[Daniel]

Can be that they keep him driving so that they have a brittish driver in the WRC, I dont think that you can find anyone brittish who could realisticly fight for podiums at the moment, so its the same who drives for positions 5-9, especially if they are not so good in finding sponsorship.

Do you not feel that Wilks or Meeke would be a better driver than Wilson? I've never seen Wilson being used to advertise anything here so whether he's British or not doesn't seem be a factor in terms of sponsorship.

[Tomi]

Do you not feel that Wilks or Meeke would be a better driver than Wilson? I've never seen Wilson being used to advertise anything here so whether he's British or not doesn't seem be a factor in terms of sponsorship.

both are propably better, but not that much that they would fight for podiums, more on the same level like henning solberg in my opinion, so it would not make a big difference, what makes you think that if wilks gets sponsors they would not give him a car?

[Daniel]

both are propably better, but not that much that they would fight for podiums, more on the same level like henning solberg in my opinion, so it would not make a big difference, what makes you think that if wilks gets sponsors they would not give him a car?

Of course you're right. But is that really the way to run a team? Citroen seem a little more willing to throw their own cash into the mix to nurture talent and it pays off for them in that they've had Loeb and when Loeb is gone they've got Ogier.

[N.O.T]

he is not good for the sport....a minor stain to the sports legacy.

He will be forgotten once he decides he is just a waste of space/resources and nothing more...pfffftttt...

I thought only finnish people are nationalistic about their paper champions but seems its not the case anymore....

[Tomi]

Of course you're right. But is that really the way to run a team? Citroen seem a little more willing to throw their own cash into the mix to nurture talent and it pays off for them in that they've had Loeb and when Loeb is gone they've got Ogier.

Maybe it has something to do with that Citroen is the only factory team out there at the moment.

[Daniel]

Maybe it has something to do with that Citroen is the only factory team out there at the moment.

But surely logic dictates that if you are a semi-private team and your competition is better funded, that you try and cut back spending which isn't necessary for your title ambitions.

[Daniel]

What a pathetically negative thread.....

The anti-Matt Wilson brigade have a simple view that if you aren't winning then pack it in. Great - so we would have a WRC that consists of Loeb, Ogier and Citroen, every one else can go home.

Does Matt driving the Stobart Fiesta do anyone any harm? No.

If he wasn't there would someone else get the drive? No.

Does it add to the spectacle of the WRC in having another WRC car on every event? Yes

Lots of armchair drivers on here.....I would love to see how they would fare against the top drivers in the world.

There can only ever be a single winner and we have been fortunate to see probably the best rally driver ever win the title in recent years. Mikko Hirvonen is a superlative driver but even he has fallen slightly short when compared to Loeb these last few years. To be only one or maybe two seconds per kilometre slower than Loeb is mightily impressive whatever your background and funding.

Some people really do need to get a life...............

WT

I love it how the Matty fans seem to state with complete certainty that no one else would get that seat if Matty wasn't in it. If that were true then that would appear to say a lot about where Malcolm's priorities lay.

This is a discussion forum for gods sake..... people are going to discuss things and sometimes we're going to agree or disagree, if anyone needs to get a life it's people like you who seem mortally wounded when poor little Matty gets criticised for saying silly stuff. He said in the autosport article "In some ways, I came into the sport at the wrong time. You look at the time when there were six or seven manufacturers competing and there were more seats then" which is just fantasy! If Wilson had been in the WRC when you had the likes of Solberg, Martin, Sainz, Makinen, McRae, Higgins, Rovanpera, Loix, Kankkunen, Gardemeister, Panizzi, Stohl, Eriksson, Burns , Gronholm, Delecour, Loeb, Radstrom and a few other decent drivers then he would NEVER have earnt a seat in the WRC based on his current pace.

Aside from Radstrom, Loix, Higgins, Gardemeister and Stohl, all of those drivers had taken rally wins if my memory serves me correctly and of those who had taken victories, the majority of them were capable of fighting for drivers titles. To suggest that if he'd been in the WRC when there were 6 or 7 teams that he would have deserved a factory seat is pure fantasy.

[Tomi]

But surely logic dictates that if you are a semi-private team and your competition is better funded, that you try and cut back spending which isn't necessary for your title ambitions.

offcourse that would make sence, anyway i have no problem what so ever that he drives and i dont think he takes the seat of anybody.

[Daniel]

offcourse that would make sence, anyway i have no problem what so ever that he drives and i dont think he takes the seat of anybody.

and I honestly don't have a problem with him driving anymore than I have with any other privateer spending their own money or their sponsors money, I just feel that the money could be spent elsewhere for a far greater effect for the team.

[Tomi]

and I honestly don't have a problem with him driving anymore than I have with any other privateer spending their own money or their sponsors money, I just feel that the money could be spent elsewhere for a far greater effect for the team.

Sure but thats their problem, i have not bought any rally mercendise or funded their business in any other way either, so to me its the same who drives their cars.

[wildsir]

Maybe it has something to do with that Citroen is the only factory team out there at the moment.
Any the only team you couldnt buy a seat in.

[Tomi]

Any the only team you couldnt buy a seat in.

Says who? if i remember correct Sainz did bring sponsors there and also Sordo said in some interview that he could not find the cash Citroen wanted.

[wildsir]

its your arguement, not mine, it you that was saying their only true works team, not me.

the definatiton of a works team.. is a sports team that is financed and run by a manufacturer

sordo and sainz had sponsor that 'wanted' to be involved, as the spanish sponsors do. I wouldnt think it was condition on either getting a seat.

Sordo was forced out of Citroen this year to make room for Seb 2. Rather than sacking him, i'd imagine they asked for a ridicuoisly amount of money, knowing he wouldnt come up with it.

[DonJippo]

the definatiton of a works team.. is a sports team that is financed and run by a manufacturer

And yet motorsport is full of examples when a driver has bought a seat with the help of his sponsors from a manufacturer financed and run works team.

[urabus-denoS2000]

Any the only team you couldnt buy a seat in.

I am more for Citroen than Ford , but that's a hillarious statement my friend . What about Petter Solberg , Urmo Aava and CONRAD RAUTENBACH ?

[Bobcat]

its your arguement, not mine, it you that was saying their only true works team, not me.

the definatiton of a works team.. is a sports team that is financed and run by a manufacturer

sordo and sainz had sponsor that 'wanted' to be involved, as the spanish sponsors do. I wouldnt think it was condition on either getting a seat.

Sordo was forced out of Citroen this year to make room for Seb 2. Rather than sacking him, i'd imagine they asked for a ridicuoisly amount of money, knowing he wouldnt come up with it.

Amen wildsir! Truly lol! In reality... http://www.rallysportlive.com/2010/11/daniel-sordo-searches-landing-in-ford/

[wildsir]

I am more for Citroen than Ford , but that's a hillarious statement my friend . What about Petter Solberg , Urmo Aava and CONRAD RAUTENBACH ?
What about them?
Didn't see any of them in factory citroens?

[wildsir]

The fact is..
Citroen dont need drivers money.
Hence they have the best drivers.

The point is..

Unless a driver has the ability to

1) get paid
2) be competitive
3) show continual improvement..

I would, as a driver, have to question where my life is going...

[BDunnell]

Can be that they keep him driving so that they have a brittish driver in the WRC, I dont think that you can find anyone brittish who could realisticly fight for podiums at the moment, so its the same who drives for positions 5-9, especially if they are not so good in finding sponsorship.

In which case, what's the point? Hardly anyone in non-enthusiast circles knows who Matt Wilson is, because, with the best will in the world, he isn't successful enough to register. The contribution he's made to the popularity of the WRC in the UK must be considered minimal.

[BDunnell]

The anti-Matt Wilson brigade have a simple view that if you aren't winning then pack it in. Great - so we would have a WRC that consists of Loeb, Ogier and Citroen, every one else can go home.

Well, that's absolutely not my view, for one.



Does it add to the spectacle of the WRC in having another WRC car on every event? Yes

On this, I don't agree with you, I'm afraid, just as I don't agree that the six extra cars provided by the three new F1 teams have (yet) added a great deal of extra spectacle to that form of motorsport. It's not just Wilson to whom this applies, and it would be very unfair to single him out — there simply isn't the general strength in depth in the WRC at present.



Lots of armchair drivers on here.....I would love to see how they would fare against the top drivers in the world.

I take it, then, that you have never passed comment on any subject that you don't have personal experience of yourself? Never grumbled about a politician, for instance?

[BDunnell]

The fact is..
Citroen dont need drivers money.
Hence they have the best drivers.

The point is..

Unless a driver has the ability to

1) get paid
2) be competitive
3) show continual improvement..

I would, as a driver, have to question where my life is going...

Well, they may just want to compete.

[urabus-denoS2000]

What about them?
Didn't see any of them in factory citroens?

I dont understand what you mean then . Ford is also a manufacturer team by your standards because their 2 drivers are also paid , so I don't understand your criteria ? Both teams have privately funded drivers , with the difference that M-Sport depends upon them and Citroen Racing doesn't

[sonnyc4]

In which case, what's the point? Hardly anyone in non-enthusiast circles knows who Matt Wilson is, because, with the best will in the world, he isn't successful enough to register. The contribution he's made to the popularity of the WRC in the UK must be considered minimal.

I think your being very generous with that statement, I don't know of one person who even knows who he is apart from those already WRC fans

[Barreis]

Well, they may just want to compete.

And burn some money.

[Bobcat]

Citroen dont need drivers money.

I can't agree. http://www.rallysportlive.com/2010/11/daniel-sordo-searches-landing-in-ford/

[N.O.T]

bobcat his contract was off and they wanted to get rid of him so Ogier can take his place.....that is why they said bring the cash. They now pay for both Loeb and Ogier...while in the ford camp the situation is shady concerning the 2 finns.

[Bobcat]

I dont understand what you mean then . Ford is also a manufacturer team by your standards because their 2 drivers are also paid , so I don't understand your criteria ?
+1

Both teams have privately funded drivers , with the difference that M-Sport depends upon them and Citroen Racing doesn't
No. Today, Citroen Racing does love the trading.

[Bobcat]

.....that is why they said bring the cash.
Only shady speculations. ;)

How about P. Solberg with hundreds of millions... :D

[N.O.T]

solberg is a privateer....of course they will require money to run his car...same as Icecube

But M-sport demands money from their official drivers as well depending on performance...

[wildsir]

Well, they may just want to compete.

Yes, but isn't that the point of this thread?
If u want to enjoy youself... Go ahead.
But forget about your plan to be world champion.

[wildsir]

I dont understand what you mean then . Ford is also a manufacturer team by your standards because their 2 drivers are also paid , so I don't understand your criteria ? Both teams have privately funded drivers , with the difference that M-Sport depends upon them and Citroen Racing doesn't

Get with it.
Ford drivers have paid to get their drives.
Citroen drivers have not.

[N.O.T]

there are some indications that ford official drivers still pay under some circumstances....but this might not be true...

and wild is right....Both ford drivers paid to get their official drives....Citroen hired everyone apart from Sainz.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Wilson should drive a Fiesta SWRCar and learn from there. Sorry I had to say it but his WRC seat should go to someone else deserving.

[BDunnell]

I don't see how there can be any argument as to the fact that those whose money allows Wilson to compete at this level would be better off directing their resources towards a faster driver. Is this even disputable?

[AndyRAC]

I don't see how there can be any argument as to the fact that those whose money allows Wilson to compete at this level would be better off directing their resources towards a faster driver. Is this even disputable?

As long a Malcolm and Stobart are happy - nothing will change. He's in the same car as Ostberg - is he setting similar times???

[N.O.T]

how many events remain until the 6 event deal expires ??

[Daniel]

I don't see how there can be any argument as to the fact that those whose money allows Wilson to compete at this level would be better off directing their resources towards a faster driver. Is this even disputable?

Well, some people continually try and dispute it but I'm not sure that's what you mean :D

[BDunnell]

As long a Malcolm and Stobart are happy - nothing will change.

Indeed. But I don't understand how Stobart can be happy with Wilson junior's performance from a commercial point of view.

[sollitt]

But I don't understand how Stobart can be happy ... Which is exactly why your earlier comment is disputable. Unless you're on their side of the fence and understand their motivation you can have no idea. The funding is their's to spend as they please. That's what is undisputable.

[Daniel]

Which is exactly why your earlier comment is disputable. Unless you're on their side of the fence and understand their motivation you can have no idea. The funding is their's to spend as they please. That's what is undisputable.

That's one thing we can agree on. Personally I doubt that Stobart is spending a huge amount on Matty's car though.

[BDunnell]

Which is exactly why your earlier comment is disputable. Unless you're on their side of the fence and understand their motivation you can have no idea. The funding is their's to spend as they please. That's what is undisputable.

Of course — I am not disputing that, and would have thought this was obvious. This is why I posed the question. I simply cannot understand what there is to gain in such circumstances.

By the way, can I also ask you something — have you ever criticised a politician's actions?

[sollitt]

By the way, can I also ask you something — have you ever criticised a politician's actions? Only when they effect me and never about how they're spending their own money or going about their own business.

[BDunnell]

Only when they effect me and never about how they're spending their own money or going about their own business.

Really? You have never once expressed a view on anything with which you are not directly involved? This would make you all but unique, I should think.

And I note you have no desire to answer my other question, and thus help me to understand what there is to gain from sponsoring a driver who is unlikely to do much better than the lower reaches of the points, when they could choose otherwise.

[N.O.T]

if you guys think that Stobart is sponsoring Wilslow you are naive to say the least.......they just sponsor the car not the driver.

[sollitt]

I think that's exactly the point NOT. None of us know exactly who is paying how much and what are the goals. Therefore we are, none of us, equipped to judge whether the money is well spent or otherwise. And frankly, it's absolutely none of our business.

[N.O.T]

the fact that is none of your business doesn't mean we cannot say if its wrong or not.....

[sollitt]

If you accept that it's their money to do with as they please and that how they spend it is none of our business, you must also accept that there is no "wrong" for you to say anything about.

[Daniel]

I think that's exactly the point NOT. None of us know exactly who is paying how much and what are the goals. Therefore we are, none of us, equipped to judge whether the money is well spent or otherwise. And frankly, it's absolutely none of our business.

Of course it's Papa Wilson's business whether he spends his money on his son or not, but to suggest that spending that money on an up and coming talent is not a better idea is just silly.

[mousti]

Or in development! There are still some little weak points that could be gone with working on it with better funds instead to get in Mathew or better said in the garbage can :) it's as useless as that :)

[I am evil Homer]

I don't see how there can be any argument as to the fact that those whose money allows Wilson to compete at this level would be better off directing their resources towards a faster driver. Is this even disputable?

Yes it is, very disputable as it misses the point. Stobart is supporting it's local driver with a local team. Sure his dad runs that organisation but he wouldn't have the seat if he didn't have the £££ to bring.

If someone else comes up with the cash they can have the same car.

So perhaps Stobart are happy to support him, as they are happy to sponsor theirt local football teams Carlisle Untied football club and not Newcastle who are the nearest 'big' team.

[I am evil Homer]

Of course it's Papa Wilson's business whether he spends his money on his son or not, but to suggest that spending that money on an up and coming talent is not a better idea is just silly.

Wilson isn't paying for his son. Try getting facts correct first - i'm sure his 'deal' is more competitve than say Driver X coming along but Stobart are the majority backers, hence they get their name on the entry list.

[N.O.T]

so you say that stobart is a personal sponsor of Wilson ??? I do not think so....... Stobart sponsors the team not the driver, thats why Latvala, Galli, ostberg and others used the team to run a car....if Stobart was a personal sponsor of wilslow then ostbergs team would have a different name in the entry list of sardinia like kupiers for example.

[MikeD]

Those in here who tries to justify Wilson's rally career in a WRC car really lost every argument after this weekends WRC event in Sardegna. He couldn't even beat the SWRC drivers despite his superior car.

[N.O.T]

I do not think they try to say that he is a rally driver or he knows what he is doing or he even has a remote chance of being anything in rallying other than a disgrace.....

they just say that since its his money he can spend it however he likes....and that is fine by me but since the money comes from an owner of a manufacturer team and not from a random rich guy with a brain malfunction i just say that those resources should be used for the development of the cars. And that is the main reason (plus that he presents himself as a rally driver) why we do not bother with al Quasimy or Kupiers or Van Merkel guy...

[DonJippo]

I do not think they try to say that he is a rally driver or he knows what he is doing or he even has a remote chance of being anything in rallying other than a disgrace.....

they just say that since its his money he can spend it however he likes....and that is fine by me but since the money comes from an owner of a manufacturer team and not from a random rich guy with a brain malfunction i just say that those resources should be used for the development of the cars. And that is the main reason (plus that he presents himself as a rally driver) why we do not bother with al Quasimy or Kupiers or Van Merkel guy...

You don't bother with them because their last name is not Wilson .... :rolleyes:

[GigiGalliNo1]

Those in here who tries to justify Wilson's rally career in a WRC car really lost every argument after this weekends WRC event in Sardegna. He couldn't even beat the SWRC drivers despite his superior car.

+1

[Karukera]

We all know about when, where, how he got the seat.

He may be a nice bloke but the key point now is “embarrassment” he causes : Ford, M-Sport, Stobart, his fans, his tribe...

Can you believe him still being that slow after 5,4 full long years in a top rally car ?

This is going beyond decency now, there are kids watching the sport.

He should pull the plug on the WRC and go to... err, not to IRC, not at all with that bunch o’ Tänak, Häninen & co killers still active.

[noel157]

If you accept that it's their money to do with as they please and that how they spend it is none of our business, you must also accept that there is no "wrong" for you to say anything about.

You've got a very "Holier than thou" attitude to this issue. Is every football or rugby fan wrong to utter a single word of criticism about a player or a team? Does the performance of an athlete or team have a direct effect on a fan's life? No, more than likely not. But that doesn't mean a fan can't have an opinion and voice that opinion be it positive or negative or indifferent. If I was a supporter of Man Utd or Real Madrid and they bought a new player am I not allowed to express an opinion on that player? By your reckoning every single Utd or Real fan dare not utter a single negative word or indeed a positive word because what the club do with their money is none of anybody's business but their own. It's no different in WRC. Papa Wilson's outfit need public exposure, their sponsors need public exposure, after all without such exposure I don't think we would have much in the way of motorsport. The road to gaining public exposure is a two way street. I spend money and I spend time following rallying and therefore I, along with millions of others, are essentially stakeholders in the sport. That gives me the right to comment, to judge and to form an opinion on many things. But I could put all that aside and still retain the right to comment and judge. M-Sport, Citroen Sport, Mini etc and world rallying in general are not private (in the general sense) companies operating behind closed doors, they are on the world stage and that gives me and others the right to say, within reason, what I please. Therefore, as I've said before, Papa Wilson should relegate his son to another role and support an emerging talent who justifies the funds that are and have been used for the past 6 years.

[wrc1600]

Maybe we should leave him alone, why anyone could expect podiums from him? He is lucky to drive for fun (and for money) like Villagra or Khalid and that is all. And lets make it clear he has never been the best British driver, his driving is not most entertaining, his timming is rather embarrassing. Money well wested...

[ste898]

I have supported Matt over the last 5+ years.

But after sardinia this weekend I now think the time has come for him to think I cant do this and save himself further embarasement and call a halt to WRC driving

[Daniel]

Wilson isn't paying for his son. Try getting facts correct first - i'm sure his 'deal' is more competitve than say Driver X coming along but Stobart are the majority backers, hence they get their name on the entry list.

Facts? What facts? You have no proof that Stobart pay for Matty's car, it could have been Ozzy freaking Bin Laden for all we know who pays for his drive so with all respect you can go and shove your "facts" :laugh:

[Daniel]

You don't bother with them because their last name is not Wilson .... :rolleyes:

That's not true, he doesn't like the ice cream guys :D

[BDunnell]

Wilson isn't paying for his son. Try getting facts correct first - i'm sure his 'deal' is more competitve than say Driver X coming along but Stobart are the majority backers, hence they get their name on the entry list.

And here lies my confusion. In what sense is Stobart just sponsoring Wilson, or the whole team?

[BDunnell]

Therefore we are, none of us, equipped to judge whether the money is well spent or otherwise. And frankly, it's absolutely none of our business.

None of which means that it is not a topic worthy of discussion. Would you feel that a discussion as to the relative merits of Kris Meeke and Matt Wilson should not be had, on the grounds that none of us are equipped to make judgments on them?

And, are there circumstances under which you feel how a company spends its money does become our business?

[BDunnell]

You've got a very "Holier than thou" attitude to this issue. Is every football or rugby fan wrong to utter a single word of criticism about a player or a team? Does the performance of an athlete or team have a direct effect on a fan's life? No, more than likely not. But that doesn't mean a fan can't have an opinion and voice that opinion be it positive or negative or indifferent. If I was a supporter of Man Utd or Real Madrid and they bought a new player am I not allowed to express an opinion on that player? By your reckoning every single Utd or Real fan dare not utter a single negative word or indeed a positive word because what the club do with their money is none of anybody's business but their own. It's no different in WRC.

Exactly.

[Antony Warmbold]

I find this link usefull to understand some of the realities of sponsoring.
http://www.tsms.org.uk/why_sponsor_a_car.html

My favorite part :

"...The consequence of this is that a sponsor who relies solely on the logos on the car and at the trackside will realise little benefit in terms of sales or brand awareness, and certainly won’t achieve any real business results from their expenditure, just good corporation tax write downs..."

[I am evil Homer]

Facts? What facts? You have no proof that Stobart pay for Matty's car, it could have been Ozzy freaking Bin Laden for all we know who pays for his drive so with all respect you can go and shove your "facts" :laugh:

Ah, ever the charmer.

Stobart Motorsport hire both cars from M-Sport. Fact.
It isn't for free. Fact.
Drivers have to pay Stobart Motorsport to drive one of the two Fiestas they have. Fact.

Solberg is one of them, his money mainly comes from Ludo. Wilson is also one of them - where he gets his money from is pretty clear, his dad owns a large business But to suggest Stobart in no way pays for Matt Wilson's car is factually incorrect.

[Daniel]

Ah, ever the charmer.

Stobart Motorsport hire both cars from M-Sport. Fact.
It isn't for free. Fact.
Drivers have to pay Stobart Motorsport to drive one of the two Fiestas they have. Fact.

Solberg is one of them, his money mainly comes from Ludo. Wilson is also one of them - where he gets his money from is pretty clear, his dad owns a large business But to suggest Stobart in no way pays for Matt Wilson's car is factually incorrect.

You seem to not understand the difference between speculation and fact. You don't know the arrangements between M-Sport and Stobart so none of what you've said about Matty Wilson has been proven factually correct at all. You can still shove it or continue on with your "facts" if you so wish :laugh:

[DonJippo]

That's not true, he doesn't like the ice cream guys :D

Well I'm sure if his last name was not Wilson we would not have 12 pages nonsense on this thread.

[Daniel]

Well I'm sure if his last name was not Wilson we would not have 12 pages nonsense on this thread.

True. But this forum would be no fun without the nonsense. Imaging NORF without Pino, it'd be boring :p

[N.O.T]

Well I'm sure if his last name was not Wilson we would not have 12 pages nonsense on this thread.

i think you are wrong....Warmbold and rautenbach took the same amount of verbal abuse but they realised that there was no future and left...Wilson not only remans but he also tries to persudae the public that he actually has a future

[Daniel]

i think you are wrong....Warmbold and rautenbach took the same amount of verbal abuse but they realised that there was no future and left...Wilson not only remans but he also tries to persudae the public that he actually has a future

Please don't mention Warmbold an Rautencrash in the same sentence. I don't know where Antony's money came from but I doubt it was from criminal activities or conflict diamonds. Say what you want about Wilson, but at least his dads money is his dads money :)

[sonnyc4]

+1

[BDunnell]

Please don't mention Warmbold an Rautencrash in the same sentence. I don't know where Antony's money came from but I doubt it was from criminal activities or conflict diamonds. Say what you want about Wilson, but at least his dads money is his dads money :)

Very true indeed.

[BDunnell]

But to suggest Stobart in no way pays for Matt Wilson's car is factually incorrect.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that they have nothing at all to do with it, are they?

[wildsir]

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/25052011/58/wilson-set-miss-five-wrc-rounds.html

[tfp]

Lets wait for Matt W to get another undeserved slating.

[wildsir]

Aaaahhh.. I know. Maybe VW have signed him, and have a non-competing clause on him for the rest of 2010...

[Daniel]

was always going to happen. I'm just surprised it wasn't in another couple of years time....