TV figures Drivers more Visible for Viewers Start Number - Todt

[CNR]

F1 needs to act on TV figures - Todt
http://www.supersport.com/motorsport/article.aspx?Id=412782

World motorsport federation chief Jean Todt has said Formula One needed to question how it can remain attractive to television viewers.

He also said more would have to be done to make the drivers more visible for viewers.

"In television I can hardly recognise who is sitting in a car," he said.

"The helmets are only known to experts. A lot of drivers are constantly changing the design as well


He praised the US Nascar series in which drivers received a start number to be kept throughout his entire career and was "immediately identifiable for fans."

[Ben_Chracer]

Hey, I must be an expert!

I wonder what Jean would propose to "make the drivers more visible" without detracting from their safety. The high sides of the cockpit were recently introduced to improve safety. Maybe just put the driver's name on the car, like who was it? Honda? I think, when they lacked sponsorship. Didn't one car say Jenson in big letters? I forget the other driver and probably have the wrong team, but you get the point.

But really, come on! This dumbing down of F1 to grow the sport will be the ruin of it!

[motetarip]

I think having a name or number quite visible on the side of the car would make things easier for the casual viewer. Todt is right about the changing helmet designs, it used to be easy to identify the driver quite readily especially with designs like Hill or Senna.

[Rollo]

I think having a name or number quite visible on the side of the car would make things easier for the casual viewer. Todt is right about the changing helmet designs, it used to be easy to identify the driver quite readily especially with designs like Hill or Senna.

When I think back to when I were a wee lad say back in those heady days of 1986, Ferrari, Williams, Lotus, McLaren, Osella, Tyrell, Brabham etc. all had prominent numbers either on the end plates of the rear wing, on the side pods or in front of the side pods. It was very easy to find every number on most cars.

Fast forward to 2011 and only Williams and HRT are really obvious anymore. Personally I like the idea of NASCAR where they have a minimum of 40 inch numbers on the doors. Even at 199.99mph it's obvious as to which car you're looking at.

If I was Grand Poobah and Lord High Everything Else, I'd make it mandatory to display competition numbers on the end plates of the rear wing in numbers no smaller than 300mm in height and obviously legible from at least 75m away.

[Hawkmoon]

When I think back to when I were a wee lad say back in those heady days of 1986, Ferrari, Williams, Lotus, McLaren, Osella, Tyrell, Brabham etc. all had prominent numbers either on the end plates of the rear wing, on the side pods or in front of the side pods. It was very easy to find every number on most cars.

Fast forward to 2011 and only Williams and HRT are really obvious anymore. Personally I like the idea of NASCAR where they have a minimum of 40 inch numbers on the doors. Even at 199.99mph it's obvious as to which car you're looking at.

If I was Grand Poobah and Lord High Everything Else, I'd make it mandatory to display competition numbers on the end plates of the rear wing in numbers no smaller than 300mm in height and obviously legible from at least 75m away.

Well m' Lord, you'd get my vote on that propsal.

I'd prefer that teams retained numbers rather than drivers but Todt has the right idea, though you can't stop drivers from changing helmet designs Nor can you stop them from using overly complex designs that look a complete mess in anything other than a close-up still shot.

[Dave B]

Some better TV directing would be a start, instead of having so many cameras positioned at the end of straights looking at cars half a kilometre away. On such shots it's difficult to read anything on the car, let alone a number even if it were bigger.

It's also trivially easy to provide captions to identify which drivers are onscreen - my pet hate are the onboard shots where the car is obvious but the driver's helmet is out of shot.

[Mark]

In order to put captions on screen it has to be obvious to the director which cars are in shot. And I think even they struggle!

However with onboard shots they know which driver they are cutting to so it should be trivial to have a graphic on screen as soon as they are cut to.

[Dave B]

In order to put captions on screen it has to be obvious to the director which cars are in shot. And I think even they struggle!

However with onboard shots they know which driver they are cutting to so it should be trivial to have a graphic on screen as soon as they are cut to.

With a halfway decent use of technology it should be completely automatic. You know where the cars are thanks to GPS and telemetry, you know where the cameras are because you spent all of Thursday wiring them up, and as you mention you usually have a shot in mind before you cut to it. The captions wouldn't be needed - or even welcome - on every single shot.

[Mark]

Depends how much you want, do you want a bright blue glow around the cars like they do in hockey? Or do you want like NASCAR where they have the names along the top of the screen and arrows pointing down to show which cars these are.

[SGWilko]

Well

Back in the mid-late eighties, you knew which Williams car was which because;

1. they had big numbers - on the nose and on the rear wing uprights,

and,

2. Mansell's number was red, the other (Piquet/Patrese) was white.

[Dave B]

Depends how much you want, do you want a bright blue glow around the cars like they do in hockey? Or do you want like NASCAR where they have the names along the top of the screen and arrows pointing down to show which cars these are.

Even something like my "knocked-up-in-30-seconds-using-MS-paint" would do :p

http://daveb.comyr.com/forum/f1graphics.JPG

We have similar now, but very much under-used.

[Mark]

Yes, and gap information is relevant here too.

But think about how much easier it would be if there were big numbers on the nose of the car, and on the wing end plates. I would also advocate going back to the previous F1 numbering system, but that's another question entirely!

Actually I wouldn't say go back to the previous system in its entirety which saw the champion taking 1 and then swapping the numbers of the team from the previous year to the team which had the number 1 the previous year - just too complicated.

Quite simply, allocate all the teams numbers and that's the numbers they will use forever, unless they have the world champion at which point they will use 1&2, but after that they revert back to their previous numbers, simples.

How to allocate the numbers I hear you ask? Well Constructors Championship order is not good IMO. I'd make it first come first served based on length of time involved in F1.

[markabilly]

One problem is that the helmets are not that distinctive on television and the helmet colors are often changed.

There is usually not much distinctive about the cars either, especially between team mates

As to the numbers, well give them a permanent number or do not give them a permanent number. It will not matter unless the numbers are clear and distinctive on the nose of the car and sides where they are clear and distinctive as in the 1960's (where the numbers were mandated to be distinctive and big, so the scorers could see the numbers and mark them down as they went past)

[Dave B]

Is it just me then? In 30 years of watching F1 I've never found identifying drivers a particular problem.

[Dave B]

There is usually not much distinctive about the cars either, especially between team mates
Would anybody strongly object to teams' cars running different liveries, as BAR were proposing when they first entered?

http://atlasf1.autosport.com/news/1999/images/bar3.jpg

[markabilly]

Is it just me then? In 30 years of watching F1 I've never found identifying drivers a particular problem.

Neither have I, most of the time when the car and helmet is clearly shown with enough detail on the TV screen, but we follow the sport closely and I could see how the casual fan would have problems


could let drivers pick numbers like Motogp, where Nicky has always had his number 69. And we all know what 69 stands for!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[555-04Q2]

Regular viewers should find identifying drivers easy. New viewers probably dont care who is who, they juat want to watch the occassional race or a few laps.

[Malbec]

Would anybody strongly object to teams' cars running different liveries, as BAR were proposing when they first entered?

Yes, it'd be even more confusing with 24 different liveries running around the track. I follow the individual teams more than I follow the drivers and I want to see a strong team identity. Also think about what it would mean to drive the Ferrari that ISN'T red, or the McLaren that isn't silver. There'd be an obvious hierarchy within the team that would be obvious for all to see.

What is the casual fan though? F1 is a sport that is supposedly more attractive for the intelligent viewer, after all Bernie pitches it to sponsors as one of the few sports if not the only one that has a high penetrance amongst the highest income brackets. Surely we don't need to dumb things down for new viewers to the point where we have special effects highlights pointing out each car and driver?

I really don't see the problem with having big prominent numbers on the sidepods and nose. Williams ran a test livery like that I think a few years back and the cars looked pretty good to me then.

[Mark]

Also if you have different sponsors on each of the cars that brings with it a conflict of interest. Did the driver have to move aside to let the other win for sporting or financial reasons?

[Sonic]

Neither have I, most of the time when the car and helmet is clearly shown with enough detail on the TV screen, but we follow the sport closely and I could see how the casual fan would have problems


could let drivers pick numbers like Motogp, where Nicky has always had his number 69. And we all know what 69 stands for!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Summer of 69??? ;)

[markabilly]

Also if you have different sponsors on each of the cars that brings with it a conflict of interest. Did the driver have to move aside to let the other win for sporting or financial reasons?

Win???

No but for sponsorship, I could see them fussing about blocking the view, and which side is more visible on TV


Another thing is that with the older simple helmet color designs, the driver was far more easily identifiable.

For example, Denny Hulme's helmet white with two stripes, Surtees helmet, white and the blue lines, Gurney's helmet was all black, graham Hill was black with the white "whatever" and so on.

Very distinctive and stood out even on TV from a distance.

Today, the helmets are all sorts of colors, some of which I like, but they are not distinctive from any distance nor on TV except in real close up shots

[markabilly]

Summer of 69??? ;)

yeah, that was her name........

[Dave B]

Here's a question: how many of you use the T-camera colours to identify cars? As far as I can tell many people aren't even aware that there's a colour code.

[markabilly]

Here's a question: how many of you use the T-camera colours to identify cars? As far as I can tell many people aren't even aware that there's a colour code.

I do when I can remember which car has which color......which is seldom, very seldom

I was waiting to see if anybody would mention this, cause it seems not to be all that great except for the teams internal use

[AndyL]

Here's a question: how many of you use the T-camera colours to identify cars? As far as I can tell many people aren't even aware that there's a colour code.

Yes I struggle to remember which way round the drivers are for each team. However I would expect the TV commentators and producers to be well schooled on that, it's their job after all.

Having looked at a few pictures it seems the "first" driver in each team has red and the "second" has yellow. I hadn't figured out before that it was consistent in that way. I guess it doesn't help that some teams don't really have a first and second driver, and others try to claim they don't.

[ioan]

Would anybody strongly object to teams' cars running different liveries, as BAR were proposing when they first entered?

http://atlasf1.autosport.com/news/1999/images/bar3.jpg

No. Diversity is good!

[UltimateDanGTR]

Would anybody strongly object to teams' cars running different liveries, as BAR were proposing when they first entered?

http://atlasf1.autosport.com/news/1999/images/bar3.jpg

I really wouldn't like this, each team should have a distinct, uniform livery for both cars. That's the problem with IndyCar and NASCAR, for the casual viewer it's hard to tell who is in the same team. However, like IndyCar large numbers should be situated on the rear wing endplates, as well as having them enlarged on the nosecone. Driver's names somewhere on the sides, either the sidepod or side of the engine cover would also be good, like Mclaren did a few years ago with DC and Kimi.

[markabilly]

why dont they just write the name of the driver?????

Opps, I know and now before Ioan says, "Hey, stupid, don't you know every friiggiing inch is valuable space for ad money? Same for all those big numbers painted on cars!! People need to see those ads and not be distracted by unimportant things like who is drivng the car!!!"

Thanks Ioan. Hope you do not get banned for calling me "stupid". Remeber, truth is not a defense.......

[Don Capps]

Would anybody strongly object to teams' cars running different liveries, as BAR were proposing when they first entered?

The decision by the FIA to forbid different liveries within the same team within its Formula 1 World Championship was of such pettiness and so spiteful that if one did no know better, it would have been mistaken for for Python routine. It was a decision which reflected -- and still reflects -- the colossal stupidity that governs Formula 1.

The knuckleheads running F1 seem to be incapable of finding their way out of a wet paper bag as their many inept actions over the years can attest.

[Hawkmoon]

The decision by the FIA to forbid different liveries within the same team within its Formula 1 World Championship was of such pettiness and so spiteful that if one did no know better, it would have been mistaken for for Python routine. It was a decision which reflected -- and still reflects -- the colossal stupidity that governs Formula 1.

The knuckleheads running F1 seem to be incapable of finding their way out of a wet paper bag as their many inept actions over the years can attest.

I don't think the FIA were being their usual idiotic self with that decision. F1 is a team sport and teams should be easily identifiable. Should different positions on a football team wear different jerseys? I don't think so.

F1 can learn some things from US racing: large numbers, drivers/teams owning numbers, fan access to drivers etc, but seperate liveries for each car isn't one of them.

[AndyRAC]

Neither have I, most of the time when the car and helmet is clearly shown with enough detail on the TV screen, but we follow the sport closely and I could see how the casual fan would have problems


could let drivers pick numbers like Motogp, where Nicky has always had his number 69. And we all know what 69 stands for!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, absolutely - I love the 69 ice cream - the one with the flake........ ;)

[BDunnell]

Neither have I, most of the time when the car and helmet is clearly shown with enough detail on the TV screen, but we follow the sport closely and I could see how the casual fan would have problems

I agree. To say of the casual viewers that 'they wouldn't be interested anyway' is to miss the point. That's just a cop-out.

[BDunnell]

I really wouldn't like this, each team should have a distinct, uniform livery for both cars. That's the problem with IndyCar and NASCAR, for the casual viewer it's hard to tell who is in the same team. However, like IndyCar large numbers should be situated on the rear wing endplates, as well as having them enlarged on the nosecone. Driver's names somewhere on the sides, either the sidepod or side of the engine cover would also be good, like Mclaren did a few years ago with DC and Kimi.

But that was only done at races in countries where cigarette advertising was banned, of course.

[DazzlaF1]

I really wouldn't like this, each team should have a distinct, uniform livery for both cars. That's the problem with IndyCar and NASCAR, for the casual viewer it's hard to tell who is in the same team. However, like IndyCar large numbers should be situated on the rear wing endplates, as well as having them enlarged on the nosecone. Driver's names somewhere on the sides, either the sidepod or side of the engine cover would also be good, like Mclaren did a few years ago with DC and Kimi.

The idea of giving away the rear wing endplates specifically for driver numbers (IndyCar style) I think is a great idea, not only would be beneficial for the TV viewer but more so for the trackside spectator who would have trouble telling each teams cars apart from a distance.

But I remember Maurice Hamilton mentioning it on 5Live last season to one of the teams who gave the response of "What? are you mad, that space is worth nearly $3million a season in sponsorship" So even though the idea is fantastic in principle, im not sure the teams (especially at the back of the grid) would be in favour of it

[Rollo]

From what we've seen of 2011 thus far, Hispania, Virgin and Sauber all have loads of blank space all over them. For $3m someone could stick their adverts in a far more prominent position than just the rear wing end plates.

[Don Capps]

I don't think the FIA were being their usual idiotic self with that decision. F1 is a team sport and teams should be easily identifiable. Should different positions on a football team wear different jerseys? I don't think so.

Sorry to disagree, but what a bunch of baloney and a poor analogy.


F1 can learn some things from US racing: large numbers, drivers/teams owning numbers, fan access to drivers etc, but seperate liveries for each car isn't one of them.

You were doing until the last the last nine words. However, the numbskulls running F1 are incapable of learning anything from US racing because they are idiots to begin with and whenever they have attempted to adopt a US practice they usually screwed it up big time.

[Ari]

When I think back to when I were a wee lad say back in those heady days of 1986, Ferrari, Williams, Lotus, McLaren, Osella, Tyrell, Brabham etc. all had prominent numbers either on the end plates of the rear wing, on the side pods or in front of the side pods. It was very easy to find every number on most cars.

Fast forward to 2011 and only Williams and HRT are really obvious anymore. Personally I like the idea of NASCAR where they have a minimum of 40 inch numbers on the doors. Even at 199.99mph it's obvious as to which car you're looking at.

If I was Grand Poobah and Lord High Everything Else, I'd make it mandatory to display competition numbers on the end plates of the rear wing in numbers no smaller than 300mm in height and obviously legible from at least 75m away.

Got my vote too! Even I have trouble sometimes trying to remember who is yellow and who is red for each team. The average pundit channel flicking has no chance.

I actually really like the idea of having a drivers name on the front of the car in a contrast colour. Like Mark, Karun, Jenson etc. I think that would look great!

Remember a few years back when Macca did it? I think it was pretty cool actually.

[Ari]

Is it just me then? In 30 years of watching F1 I've never found identifying drivers a particular problem.

30 years of watching F1 is the give away there! ;)

I would think only maybe 20% of the audience is made-up of die-hards like us. That means you have 80% who probably don't know much past the first couple teams.

[Rollo]

F1 can learn some things from US racing: large numbers, drivers/teams owning numbers, fan access to drivers etc, but seperate liveries for each car isn't one of them.

Some of the most stirring moments in motorsport has been when a team comes across the line in a 1-2 or 1-2-3 finish.
The most obvious I can think of is the 1-2-3 finish by the Rothmans Porsche 956s at Le Mans in 1982. Equally the three GT40s in 1966 looks OK in black and white but in colour I think it's weird.

[truefan72]

Some better TV directing would be a start, instead of having so many cameras positioned at the end of straights looking at cars half a kilometre away. On such shots it's difficult to read anything on the car, let alone a number even if it were bigger.

It's also trivially easy to provide captions to identify which drivers are onscreen - my pet hate are the onboard shots where the car is obvious but the driver's helmet is out of shot.

and cutting away from race action to show a car entering the pits. I don't know how many times that has annoyed me to death, just when something is about to happen, they cut to a car slowly making its way into the pits

and another annoyance; cutting away from action in the last lap to show the lead car strolling around for half a lap, then another half lap after winning showing him congratulating himself, only to cut back to the finish line and the announcer say something like, i guess driver x did not get by driver y.
most annoying

[truefan72]

Is it just me then? In 30 years of watching F1 I've never found identifying drivers a particular problem.

me neither

[Garry Walker]

From what we've seen of 2011 thus far, Hispania, Virgin and Sauber all have loads of blank space all over them. For $3m someone could stick their adverts in a far more prominent position than just the rear wing end plates. Companies dont want to be associated with failures, but why Sauber has space left I have no idea.


30 years of watching F1 is the give away there! ;)

I would think only maybe 20% of the audience is made-up of die-hards like us. That means you have 80% who probably don't know much past the first couple teams.
Here is the sad thing, F1 wants to cater to those 80%, not the 20% of diehards. Because they expect the diehards to take it all up the arse like a good choirboy and stick with F1, no matter how many times they screw up the rules and no matter how many idiotic things they come up with. So you know that when a rule change is coming, or anything relating to F1, it will be to cater to those 80%.

[AndyL]

and cutting away from race action to show a car entering the pits. I don't know how many times that has annoyed me to death, just when something is about to happen, they cut to a car slowly making its way into the pits

and another annoyance; cutting away from action in the last lap to show the lead car strolling around for half a lap, then another half lap after winning showing him congratulating himself, only to cut back to the finish line and the announcer say something like, i guess driver x did not get by driver y.
most annoying

Agreed. Picture-in-picture would seem to make sense for pit stops.

[motetarip]

Here is the sad thing, F1 wants to cater to those 80%, not the 20% of diehards. Because they expect the diehards to take it all up the arse like a good choirboy and stick with F1, no matter how many times they screw up the rules and no matter how many idiotic things they come up with. So you know that when a rule change is coming, or anything relating to F1, it will be to cater to those 80%.

Is it not better to cater to 80% of your audience than to 20%...

[BDunnell]

Here is the sad thing, F1 wants to cater to those 80%, not the 20% of diehards.

So you consider it good sense for a business to cater for 20 per cent of its consumers rather than 80 per cent?

[markabilly]

Actually, F1 is not catering to any portion of the general public as to the subject matter of this thread. While I was sort of joking about Ioan, truth is I remember a similar comment from him about this issue regarding sponsor's names and space on the bodies of cars

Take a good look at the livery of these cars. Imagine readable numbers on the nose and sides of the cars as per the good ole days.

Where would all the ads be in such a case?

Wouldhttp://atlasf1.autosport.com/news/1999/images/bar3.jpg


All of you are running off at the mouth without thinking about the people who are really important: sponsors.......

20 percent or 80 percent....you should be glad that after every race when they ask the winner how things went, you do not get something like:

" Bank of America great services sexier tellers, Trojan slip on easy but never slip off at the wrong moment, Viagra get it up and play all nite, Charming Toilet Paper for when your butt needs a soft rub, Fiat 500 special ran like a sweet drink of Nestea Thirst quincher"





(and because Kimi the Mumbler, sooner or later, will win one and only one NASCAR race, because when he tries to mumble through his victory speech, he will be without any ride in NASCAR, cause all the sponsors will cancel him out on the following Monday)

[BDunnell]

Actually, F1 is not catering to any portion of the general public as to the subject matter of this thread. While I was sort of joking about Ioan, truth is I remember a similar comment from him about this issue regarding sponsor's names and space on the bodies of cars

Take a good look at the livery of these cars. Imagine readable numbers on the nose and sides of the cars as per the good ole days.

Where would all the ads be in such a case?

I must admit, I agree with you. I simply don't think that visible numbers and modern-day open-wheel racing are truly compatible.

[Garry Walker]

So you consider it good sense for a business to cater for 20 per cent of its consumers rather than 80 per cent?

Unfortunately no.

[Malbec]

Where would all the ads be in such a case?

All of you are running off at the mouth without thinking about the people who are really important: sponsors.......

Thats not how sponsorship works though, if there are large numbers taking sponsorship space off the nose and sidepods (as an example) the remaining sponsorship space will merely get more expensive. All the teams would have the same reduction in sponsorship space so no single team would be handicapped or favoured. The teams will receive the same funds since sponsorship budgets and fees are not decided merely on how much space on the car they take up.

Take NASCAR as an example. The numbers take up most of the doors and roof, on some cars the bonnet too. All that does is affect the way the teams move the sponsor logos around the car but it doesn't affect their income.

Alternatively the introduction of fins on the engine cover has massively increased the amount of logo-space on the cars available yet that hasn't affected the sponsorship each team gets one bit.

[markabilly]

NASCAR stockers got a lot more space. MUCH

Plus NASCAR has always wanted the fans to have a good time, be they sober or otherwise.

Imagine F1 drivers being required to do meet and greet the average fans at an F1 race........haha

[Daniel]

Here's a question: how many of you use the T-camera colours to identify cars? As far as I can tell many people aren't even aware that there's a colour code.

I didn't know.

Personally I do sometimes have a little bit of trouble seeing what is what, but that's probably down to watching on a crap TV :p