Koran Burning in the USA

[AndySpeed]

This absolutely infuriates me - a pastor in the US state of Florida recently burned a copy of the Koran, in the presence of the pastor who previously threatened to carry out the act.

What's now happened in Afghanistan is that protesters have stormed the UN - a direct result of their (the pastors) actions. I cannot believe their idiocy in carrying out such a despicable act - knowing full well that it would enrage people and increase tensions amongst people in Afghanistan. It only serves to fuel the extremists fire.

[AndySpeed]

Here's a report: http://www.channel4.com/news/at-least-8-un-staff-killed-over-koran-burning

[CaptainRaiden]

This absolutely infuriates me - a pastor in the US state of Florida recently burned a copy of the Koran, in the presence of the pastor who previously threatened to carry out the act.

What's now happened in Afghanistan is that protesters have stormed the UN - a direct result of their (the pastors) actions. I cannot believe their idiocy in carrying out such a despicable act - knowing full well that it would enrage people and increase tensions amongst people in Afghanistan. It only serves to fuel the extremists fire.

EXACTLY. And if you have known enough Muslims, the one thing they take most seriously is religion. They are highly religious people, and stupid stuff like burning their holy book is only going to outrage even the normal citizens. Just simply idiotic.

People really need to learn to make the distinction between Muslim extremists and normal, peace-loving Muslims who do the same boring everyday stuff like going to work, having their coffee, just like all of us. Get the extremists, hang them or put them on death row. No good is going to come from burning another religion's holy book. This is a classic case of shooting themselves in the foot. Bravo!

Jackass: --> http://www.channel4.com/news/koran-burning-pastor-why-i-want-to-come-to-britain

[Eki]

This absolutely infuriates me - a pastor in the US state of Florida recently burned a copy of the Koran, in the presence of the pastor who previously threatened to carry out the act.

What's now happened in Afghanistan is that protesters have stormed the UN - a direct result of their (the pastors) actions. I cannot believe their idiocy in carrying out such a despicable act - knowing full well that it would enrage people and increase tensions amongst people in Afghanistan. It only serves to fuel the extremists fire.
Thanks to those bast... pastors 13 people are dead now (8 UN workers and 5 protesters). They must be proud of themselves.

[BDunnell]

No good is going to come from burning another religion's holy book.

I don't think there's really anything to add to that.

[Bob Riebe]

They keep telling us Islam is the religion of peace--hmmm, somebody is lying.

[Eki]

They keep telling us Islam is the religion of peace--hmmm, somebody is lying.
You think burning Holy Books is a peaceful act? How about burning the American flag?

They told us that the US was a peace loving nation, yet after 9/11/2001 they attacked Afghanistan and Iraq. Hmmm, somebody was lying.

[markabilly]

EXACTLY. And if you have known enough Muslims, the one thing they take most seriously is religion. They are highly religious people, and stupid stuff like burning their holy book is only going to outrage even the normal citizens. Just simply idiotic.

People really need to learn to make the distinction between Muslim extremists and normal, peace-loving Muslims who do the same boring everyday stuff like going to work, having their coffee, just like all of us. Get the extremists, hang them or put them on death row. No good is going to come from burning another religion's holy book. This is a classic case of shooting themselves in the foot. Bravo!

Jackass: --> http://www.channel4.com/news/koran-burning-pastor-why-i-want-to-come-to-britain


Many fundamental christains are no different in terms of their beliefs. Thankfully, they usually do not go act like a bunch of monkeys and start stoning people in the name of God when someone said something that they do not like. Sometimes, some of them do shoot up abortion clinics.

The difference is that if you read the New Testament, you find all sorts of stuff that makes them hypocrites when they get to going so crazy.

Unfortunately, the Koran makes those "peace loving moslems" out to be the hypocrites.

But you are right, just hang and hang them quick. All in the name of Jesus. Amen. :D

Or do it moslem style like the moslems like to do with cartoonists who make a little fun of the pedo prophet....... :dozey:

or better yet, take away their 12 year old wives.

But what can you expect from savages who treat women in the most degrading fashion possible, and celebrate child abuse in the name of Allah.

[BDunnell]

Or do it moslem style like the moslems like to do with cartoonists who make a little fun of the pedo prophet....... :dozey:

An incident which showed that what many religions and their practitioners need to do collectively is lighten up.

[CaptainRaiden]

They keep telling us Islam is the religion of peace--hmmm, somebody is lying.

Yeah, I doubt they ever show the peaceful Muslims on American TV. All they show are the protesters, stone throwers, always angry over-the-top loonies, because that's what gets them the ratings. Who the heck is gonna be interested in watching a Muslim guy having his breakfast, going to work, playing with his children when he comes home and then going to sleep? Nobody.

Precisely the reason why all that the rest of the world gets to see of America are fat, over-dramatic, sex crazed paranoid morons or simply beer chugging rednecks. ;)

[Bob Riebe]

You think burning Holy Books is a peaceful act? How about burning the American flag?
They told us that the US was a peace loving nation, yet after 9/11/2001 they attacked Afghanistan and Iraq. Hmmm, somebody was lying.
Who is they?

Kill a few thousand people in the U.S. and you will get attacked.--Well under President Obama, it depends on what his magic teleprompter says.

The U.S. flag gets burned quite often in the U.S. (it is actually the only proper method of disposal for a U.S. flag. Throwing it in the garbage is improper.)

[markabilly]

all in the name of jesus.

From the beginning of so-called civilization, religion has gotten more people killed then anything else I can think of.
And that is not including communism or nazism, which is just another form of religion as far as I am concerned.

Savages. No different than the old holy catholic church when they could get away with burning heretics

[Bob Riebe]

Yeah, I doubt they ever show the peaceful Muslims on American TV. All they show are the protesters, stone throwers, always angry over-the-top loonies, because that's what gets them the ratings. Who the heck is gonna be interested in watching a Muslim guy having his breakfast, going to work, playing with his children when he comes home and then going to sleep? Nobody.

Precisely the reason why all that the rest of the world gets to see of America are fat, over-dramatic, sex crazed paranoid morons or simply beer chugging rednecks. ;)

But they keep saying it is the fault of the westerners that Muslims are having snit-fits. Muslims do no wrong.http://foolstown.com/sm/bud.gif

[markabilly]

Getting a bit chilly around here. Anybody got a koran they don't need?

Used my last one a couple of weeks ago :rotflmao:


Like them folks in Floridia, just excercizing my freedom of speech, aka first amendment rights. :beer:

Of course, I am sure plenty of hypocrites around here got issues with that....stomping and buring the flaag is okay, but not the Koran...

[markabilly]

Who is they?

Well under President Obama, it depends on what his magic teleprompter says.

improper.)

Wrong, you should know much better than to say crap like this.

it depends on what the UN says, along with Hillary Clitton, who was with Billy all the time they were doing the same back before Bush jr. came along and got Congressinal authorization before he did anything.......

Now say you are sorry and send me any Korans you may have!!

[Eki]

Who is they?


The most recent one was George W Bush, but the first seems to have been Woodrow Wilson:

http://bulldogpolitics.blogspot.com/2005/10/most-peace-loving-of-nations.html


In 1917, President Woodrow Wilson stated (without cracking a smile):
"We go to war but grudgingly and then only when compelled by the requirements of restoring peace, justice, and good order, for we among all the peoples of the world comprise the most peace-loving of nations."

[CaptainRaiden]

But they keep saying it is the fault of the westerners that Muslims are having snit-fits. Muslims do no wrong.http://foolstown.com/sm/bud.gif

To be very clear, I don't endorse that philosophy. Every religion has their good and bad. And myself as a Christian, having witnessed Hindu-Muslim riots in India for decades, I am very aware what the Muslims and also the Hindus can do wrong.

But in this case, what was the need to burn a Koran now? 9/11 was 10 years ago, and I believe America exacted their "revenge" pretty well on Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm sorry if I'm not very well aware of the past news, but were any Christians, or specifically any Americans killed recently by a Muslim terrorist attack? Did a Muslim priest burn the Holy Bible? What was the need for those two jackasses to burn a Koran?

Does it not occur to anybody that by burning someone's holy book, they're pretty much risking pushing the moderately religious people into becoming extremists? It is just wrong no matter who does it to whom.

[BDunnell]

Yeah, I doubt they ever show the peaceful Muslims on American TV. All they show are the protesters, stone throwers, always angry over-the-top loonies, because that's what gets them the ratings. Who the heck is gonna be interested in watching a Muslim guy having his breakfast, going to work, playing with his children when he comes home and then going to sleep? Nobody.

While I agree very much with your sentiments on this issue, and feel that the portrayal of Muslims in certain media is very damaging, were I in charge of a TV network I wouldn't show a Muslim guy having his breakfast, going to work, playing with his children when he comes home and then going to sleep, because this isn't newsworthy, whereas Muslims burning the American flag is more so. It's a question of news values.

[markabilly]

Please hurry, it is getting cold...........

[Eki]

Kill a few thousand people in the U.S. and you will get attacked.-
Like the US didn't kill more than a few thousand people in the Middle East before that.

[BDunnell]

Of course, I am sure plenty of hypocrites around here got issues with that....stomping and buring the flaag is okay, but not the Koran...

If you think you're referring to me in that remark, on the grounds that I have on occasions be critical of American policy, may I say that I find such behaviour absolutely deplorable too.

But, more to the point, where do they get the American flags to burn? I wouldn't have the first clue about where to go to buy one. Or a decent effigy.

[CaptainRaiden]

While I agree very much with your sentiments on this issue, and feel that the portrayal of Muslims in certain media is very damaging, were I in charge of a TV network I wouldn't show a Muslim guy having his breakfast, going to work, playing with his children when he comes home and then going to sleep, because this isn't newsworthy, whereas Muslims burning the American flag is more so. It's a question of news values.

Agreed. I think any news station would do so. People are not interested in what's normal, they want to see the crazies, and frankly it is good business sense to show that. However, as you can see, the effect it has on ignorant fools and their hate for Islam is tenfold.

[markabilly]

To be very clear, I don't endorse that philosophy. Every religion has their good and bad. And myself as a Christian, having witnessed Hindu-Muslim riots in India for decades, I am very aware what the Muslims and also the Hindus can do wrong.

But in this case, what was the need to burn a Koran now? 9/11 was 10 years ago, and I believe America exacted their "revenge" pretty well on Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm sorry if I'm not very well aware of the past news, but were any Christians, or specifically any Americans killed recently by a Muslim terrorist attack? Did a Muslim priest burn the Holy Bible? What was the need for those two jackasses to burn a Koran?

Does it not occur to anybody that by burning someone's holy book, they're pretty much risking pushing the moderately religious people into becoming extremists? It is just wrong no matter who does it to whom.

Right or wrong, it is called the first amendment.....another one of those guys some two hundred years ago said (and who no doubt Rollo and arrow will point out lived in a totally different era and has no validity for today's modern times)

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend until death, your right to say it....."

I wonder if they killed any nurses and teachers, those carriers of the devil's work who preach letting girls get an education.........

[markabilly]

If you think you're referring to me in that remark, on the grounds that I have on occasions be critical of American policy, may I say that I find such behaviour absolutely deplorable too.

But, more to the point, where do they get the American flags to burn? I wouldn't have the first clue about where to go to buy one. Or a decent effigy.

Good.

But more to the point, I will swap you out a couple of flags for any Korans you have laying around.

[markabilly]

all of this is just another example of why I say that the USA needs to stay the hell out of these countries.

we been there ten years, and in almost the entire country, even areas we are firmly in control, it is still not safe to be teaching anything but the koran.

Like the dog that has the car between his teeth, now what is he going to do?

The answer is obvious, just get dragged down the road until nothing is left.

If it ain't worth a massive, sweep the country clean of everybody and everything, then it ain't worth going.

[ioan]

This absolutely infuriates me - a pastor in the US state of Florida recently burned a copy of the Koran, in the presence of the pastor who previously threatened to carry out the act.

What's now happened in Afghanistan is that protesters have stormed the UN - a direct result of their (the pastors) actions. I cannot believe their idiocy in carrying out such a despicable act - knowing full well that it would enrage people and increase tensions amongst people in Afghanistan. It only serves to fuel the extremists fire.

Are you fu*king kidding me?!
You say that the fault lies with an idiot who burned a book and not with the retards that today killed 20 people, even by cutting of their heads?!

You know what? Why don't you move to Afghanistan and try to cuddle the fanatic Islamic people hoping, in vain, that one day they will not cut off your head?!

[BDunnell]

Good.

But more to the point, I will swap you out a couple of flags for any Korans you have laying around.

No religious book would ever knowingly cross my doormat.

[ioan]

You think burning Holy Books is a peaceful act? How about burning the American flag?

Let me know how many people were killed in the US because someone burned the US flag, and than we can discuss.

The burning of a book can not be equated to peoples lives, unless you name is Eki and you live in lala land. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

all of this is just another example of why I say that the USA needs to stay the hell out of these countries.

we been there ten years, and in almost the entire country, even areas we are firmly in control, it is still not safe to be teaching anything but the koran.

Like the dog that has the car between his teeth, now what is he going to do?

The answer is obvious, just get dragged down the road until nothing is left.

If it ain't worth a massive, sweep the country clean of everybody and everything, then it ain't worth going.

Couldn't agree more.

[CaptainRaiden]

Right or wrong, it is called the first amendment.....

Well, then the Americans should be ready for retaliation. You are free to do whatever the heck you want within your country, burn a 100 bibles, but when you go burning Korans, you're tinkering with somebody else's faith, and you won't like the retaliations. Then we'll have dumb rednecks saying on TV "The Mooslims hate Americans because they don't like our freedom. Kill them all!" Then probably they'll go again launching rockets into Afghanistan, and a couple of hundred more innocent lives will be lost, while he real perpetrators (on both sides) will be resting in their comfy chairs.

[CaptainRaiden]

Getting a bit chilly around here. Anybody got a koran they don't need?

Used my last one a couple of weeks ago :rotflmao:

All of this is quite funny to you obviously, while innocent people are getting killed. And I agree, the US should get out of Afghanistan already.

[ioan]

Well, then the Americans should be ready for retaliation. You are free to do whatever the heck you want within your country, burn a 100 bibles, but when you go burning Korans, you're tinkering with somebody else's faith, and you won't like the retaliations.

So why not be free to burn a truckload of Korans if they are free to do whatever they want in the US?!
How far are we willing to go with the stupid political correctness before we get to the point that we are not allowed to eat pork because that offends some idiot who will that decide to detonate a bomb in a train station in Europe or USA.
There needs to be a limit set to everything.

As far as I care we should leave the retarded Muslims to leave together with their goat for as long as they wish to do so as long as they promise never to leave their lands and bother us. However you should know that most of them would love to be free and forget about the Islamic fundamentalists that create all these problems.

[CaptainRaiden]

Are you fu*king kidding me?!
You say that the fault lies with an idiot who burned a book and not with the retards that today killed 20 people, even by cutting of their heads?!

ioan, what happened was absolutely terrible, but arguably those extremist lunatics wouldn't have stormed and killed the UN reps if they weren't provoked or enraged by the Koran burning. Of course they shouldn't have killed anybody, and probably should have retaliated by burning the Bible or the US flag or something, instead they went on a killing spree. That's because they're uneducated extremist fools who don't have the capability to see reason or logic. The idiot pastors should have at least assumed this risk before doing something this ridiculous.

[ioan]

All of this is quite funny to you obviously, while innocent people are getting killed. And I agree, the US should get out of Afghanistan already.

So he should give up on his right to make a joke because some idiot will kill a person because of a joke?!
WTF? Maybe we should all become Muslim in order to please retarded people who have a penchant for killing?

[Bob Riebe]

Like the US didn't kill more than a few thousand people in the Middle East before that.

I don't know what boat you are trying to float with your made-up accusations, but in the only news story I looked at the only ones being condemned in this Muslim attack are the attackers in Afghanistan.

So your accusation is false, what ever you are trying to prove.

[BDunnell]

So why not be free to burn a truckload of Korans if they are free to do whatever they want in the US?!
How far are we willing to go with the stupid political correctness before we get to the point that we are not allowed to eat pork because that offends some idiot who will that decide to detonate a bomb in a train station in Europe or USA.
There needs to be a limit set to everything.

As far as I care we should leave the retarded Muslims to leave together with their goat for as long as they wish to do so as long as they promise never to leave their lands and bother us. However you should know that most of them would love to be free and forget about the Islamic fundamentalists that create all these problems.

ioan, your opinions on current affairs issues have recently been very sensible, and I've found myself in agreement with you many a time. I can only assume that the onset of the F1 season releases some chemicals into your bloodstream that result in these (actually quite offensive) rants.

[ioan]

ioan, what happened was absolutely terrible, but arguably those extremist lunatics wouldn't have stormed and killed the UN reps if they weren't provoked or enraged by the Koran burning.

Because they didn't kill anyone in Afghanistan before that one Koran was burned days ago?
C'mon, it is only too convenient for Eki like people to say that today people were killed because of a book was burned, instead of looking at it and seeing that lunatics, as you say, killed people because they do not value human life.
How much respect shall we show to such people and their archaic beliefs? IMO, none at all.

I do respect Muslims and believe me I know them well having traveled many times to the middle east, but those would not kill with such a ridiculous excuse.
I believe we need to make a distinction between educated Muslims and savages.

[CaptainRaiden]

So why not be free to burn a truckload of Korans if they are free to do whatever they want in the US?!

Because Islam is not a major religion in America, and with the obvious tension between America and the Muslim countries, this act was as stupid as it gets. Of course, what happened in retaliation was EXTREMELY terrible, and should not have happened, but it happened nonetheless.


How far are we willing to go with the stupid political correctness before we get to the point that we are not allowed to eat pork because that offends some idiot who will that decide to detonate a bomb in a train station in Europe or USA.
There needs to be a limit set to everything.

Did somebody come to your country and tell you not to eat pork? Yes, majority of the terrorists are Muslims, but not all Muslims are terrorists.


As far as I care we should leave the retarded Muslims to leave together with their goat for as long as they wish to do so as long as they promise never to leave their lands and bother us. However you should know that most of them would love to be free and forget about the Islamic fundamentalists that create all these problems.

The handful of Muslims that I have known are quite happy with their religion and live peacefully, so it's wrong to generalize against all of them. Of course there are radical extremists, and that is undeniably a big problem for them, and they have done stupid and ridiculous things in the past, but that doesn't mean that us Christians should go around burning their holy books for no good reason. I still don't understand WHY they decided to burn the Koran today out of the blue. What were they trying to achieve? Are they assuming the role of some religion police and telling Muslims that their religion is wrong? I hope not.

Or do you actually support random burnings of holy books?

[BDunnell]

I do respect Muslims and believe me I know them well having traveled many times to the middle east, but those would not kill with such a ridiculous excuse.
I believe we need to make a distinction between educated Muslims and savages.

Ah, at last a reasonable comment, without recourse to such words as 'retarded', which I honestly think are beneath you.

[ioan]

ioan, your opinions on current affairs issues have recently been very sensible, and I've found myself in agreement with you many a time. I can only assume that the onset of the F1 season releases some chemicals into your bloodstream that result in these (actually quite offensive) rants.

Let's just say that I can not find excuses to gratuitous violence, and because I believe only in the right to life (as good as possible) I can only condemn what happened today.

[Bob Riebe]

Does it not occur to anybody that by burning someone's holy book, they're pretty much risking pushing the moderately religious people into becoming extremists? It is just wrong no matter who does it to whom.
Actually I know of no other religions that have a murderous fit over the burning of their "holy' book.

They could burn a stack of Bibles and as long as one of Gutenberg originals was not in there it would keep printers occupied.
I think having a violent snit fit because a Bible was burned would be sin as written in the Bible.

[Eki]

I don't know what boat you are trying to float with your made-up accusations, but in the only news story I looked at the only ones being condemned in this Muslim attack are the attackers in Afghanistan.

So your accusation is false, what ever you are trying to prove.
It's not made up. In the first Gulf War alone, the US lead coalition killed at least 20 to 40 thousand Iraqis, including almost 4000 civilians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War

[ioan]

...but that doesn't mean that us Christians should go around burning their holy books for no good reason.

For F's sake it's just a book, nothing more. And burning a book can not justify such violence.

Reading opinions that justify the killing of people with the burning of a book makes me wonder if we aren't already leaving in a world of fear rather than in a world of freedom.

[ioan]

Actually I know of no other religions that have a murderous fit over the burning of their "holy' book.

They could burn a stack of Bibles and as long as one of Gutenberg originals was not in there it would keep printers occupied.
I think having a violent snit fit because a Bible was burned would be sin as written in the Bible.

If only all religious books would be burnt on Earth we would make a huge step ahead for the humanity, maybe the biggest one since learning to use the fire.

[ioan]

It's not made up. In the first Gulf War alone, the US lead coalition killed at least 20 to 40 thousand Iraqis, including almost 4000 civilians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War

Do you, by chance, happen to know the difference between war and lynching?!

[CaptainRaiden]

Actually I know of no other religions that have a murderous fit over the burning of their "holy' book.

They could burn a stack of Bibles and as long as one of Gutenberg originals was not in there it would keep printers occupied.
I think having a violent snit fit because a Bible was burned would be sin as written in the Bible.

Like I said before in my earlier post, if you would have known any Muslims personally, you would know that they are very highly religious people, who take their religion very damn seriously. And probably this extreme passion for their religion is why Islam also gives birth to so much extremism.

I was born a Christian, and now am an Atheist, so I could care less about how many holy books are burnt, but for them it's very different. Having seen almost all of the major religions, I would say Muslims are the most passionate of them all, and they take their religion MEGA serious. Hindus would be a close second, and Christians and Buddhists there or thereabout. From what I know of Muslims, even touching the Koran with their feet is probably a sin, and so if anybody knowingly burns something so dear to them, they are only sparking massive outrage. Add a bunch of trigger happy fools into this equation, and you have religious fanatics and extremists.

[Bob Riebe]

Well, then the Americans should be ready for retaliation. You are free to do whatever the heck you want within your country, burn a 100 bibles, but when you go burning Korans, you're tinkering with somebody else's faith, and you won't like the retaliations. Then we'll have dumb rednecks saying on TV "The Mooslims hate Americans because they don't like our freedom. Kill them all!" Then probably they'll go again launching rockets into Afghanistan, and a couple of hundred more innocent lives will be lost, while he real perpetrators (on both sides) will be resting in their comfy chairs.
So the entire U.S. is supposed to cower in fear because of what hate filled Muslims might do some because their religion tells them to?

But George Bush kept saying Islam is the religion of peace.
Some body is LYING.

[CaptainRaiden]

For F's sake it's just a book, nothing more. And burning a book can not justify such violence.

Reading opinions that justify the killing of people with the burning of a book makes me wonder if we aren't already leaving in a world of fear rather than in a world of freedom.

You should take a breath and actually READ the whole post. Who the F justified the killing of people?!? Yes, what happened was extremely terrible, and I wholeheartedly condemn these killings, and no sane person in their right mind would do something like this. But you can't deny the cold hard facts that at least what happened today was a new bloody excuse for these fanatics to kill some more people.

And just because it's only a book in some cultures, doesn't mean it's the same for all of them. Have a little perspective and try to be more tolerant. You say you know Muslims, but you don't know what the Koran means for THEM? Like I said in my previous post, I could give a flying F about how many Korans are burnt or how many Bibles are burnt, for me these are only books with LIES, since I'm an Atheist. BUT not for THEM. That still doesn't mean they should go around killing people. I don't know what's so hard to understand. Tuica? :p

[ioan]

Having seen almost all of the major religions, I would say Muslims are the most passionate of them all, and they take their religion MEGA serious.

Make that indoctrinated and I might agree.

[Bob Riebe]

It's not made up. In the first Gulf War alone, the US lead coalition killed at least 20 to 40 thousand Iraqis, including almost 4000 civilians:


A war where people are killed, MY GOODNESS, oh the humanity!

On second thought that has what to do with what these murders did?

[ioan]

You should take a breath and actually READ the whole post. Who the F justified the killing of people?!?

At least 2 people in this thread did just that.


Have a little perspective and try to be more tolerant.

Tolerant towards what, killing people in the name of religion?


Tuica? :p

No thanks, I gave up on alcohol since I travel regularly to the Middle East. ;)

[BDunnell]

If only all religious books would be burnt on Earth we would make a huge step ahead for the humanity, maybe the biggest one since learning to use the fire.

Why, then, the extreme reaction to the criticism of the Koran-burning?

[Bob Riebe]

Like I said before in my earlier post, if you would have known any Muslims personally, you would know that they are very highly religious people, who take their religion very damn seriously. And probably this extreme passion for their religion is why Islam also gives birth to so much extremism.

You are doing a good job of comparing them to rabid dogs, and you know how they are dealt with.

[Bob Riebe]

I think the question should be asked why they were burning a koran in the first place? What was the motive and what were they hoping to achieve? If it wasn't to provoke anger I'd be interested to know what it was for.

Probably he felt like it. As long as no U.S. law is broken that is the only reason he or any other needs.

[ioan]

Why, then, the extreme reaction to the criticism of the Koran-burning?

I thought that it is evident. I do not believe that burning the Koran is why those people were murdered today, the reasons run much much deeper than that.

[markabilly]

All of this is quite funny to you obviously, while innocent people are getting killed. And I agree, the US should get out of Afghanistan already.

Yeah, what is even funnier is not only that innocent people are getting killed, but you are blaming someone for burning a Koran for the murders rather than the killers themselves.

Even funnier is when the savages go killing people drawing cartoons that depict the founder of muslim religion. Of course, it is their own fault; if they had been cowards, they never would have drawn those cartoons in the first place.

[ioan]

Yeah but they also support koran burning so that proves the point really.

Where did the thread starter and Eki post about their support for Koran burning?

[BDunnell]

Like I said before in my earlier post, if you would have known any Muslims personally, you would know that they are very highly religious people, who take their religion very damn seriously.

While I still condemn the treatment of Muslims by certain sections of opinion, while I would never advocate offensive behaviour, and would always, and have always, respected the rules regarding conduct in places of worship, generally I would think it a shame if all our ways of behaviour were dictated by the most conservative, fundamentalist elements of society. As such, the manner in which the Church of England looks at itself and issues relating to belief in general is to be applauded. It may not appeal to the sort of believer who has deserted the C of E for Roman Catholicism, but I much prefer the C of E attitude to, say, rude cartoons about the Bible than I do that of other religions, and I have no hesitation in making my own value judgment on that.

[CaptainRaiden]

Tolerant towards what, killing people in the name of religion?

No, that even if it is just a book in our eyes, it might be something more than that for people of that faith, so be tolerant of their customs or their religion, not the killings. As both you and I know, anybody who can kill another human being is not sane to begin with. But understand that there are peaceful, religious people who will be outraged by the Koran burning, and that is why what the two pastors did was idiotic.

[ioan]

Yeah, what is even funnier is not only that innocent people are getting killed, but you are blaming someone for burning a Koran for the murders rather than the killers themselves.

Even funnier is when the savages go killing people drawing cartoons that depict the founder of muslim religion. Of course, it is their own fault; if they had been cowards, they never would have drawn those cartoons in the first place.

Exactly.

[BDunnell]

I thought that it is evident. I do not believe that burning the Koran is why those people were murdered today, the reasons run much much deeper than that.

Why was it done, then? 'Because they are retarded' isn't an answer.

[ioan]

No, that even if it is just a book in our eyes, it might be something more than that for people of that faith, so be tolerant of their customs or their religion, not the killings. As both you and I know, anybody who can kill another human being is not sane to begin with. But understand that there are peaceful, religious people who will be outraged by the Koran burning, and that is why what the two pastors did was idiotic.

Peaceful people get so outraged about burning the Koran that they go and kill people who did nothing wrong?! I fail to see the logic in this idea.
I am tolerant of their religion and customs, how else do you think that I manage to visit the middle east every 2nd week?!

[BDunnell]

That isn't really a justification though is it? I wouldn't invite my American friend and his girlfriend around for dinner and then after desert burn the American flag simply because I can and its not against the law. I would also be naive if I thought he wouldn't be offended by my act.

Exactly. I for one don't see the laws of the land as boundaries that are there to be pushed. One can do enough that's pleasurable without that.

[CaptainRaiden]

Yeah, what is even funnier is not only that innocent people are getting killed, but you are blaming someone for burning a Koran for the murders rather than the killers themselves.

http://static.divbyzero.nl/facepalm/doublefacepalm.jpg

/thread]

[BDunnell]

Where did the thread starter and Eki post about their support for Koran burning?

Nowhere has the thread starter, at least, ever said anything of the sort. I don't want to write on his behalf, but you should apologise for stating that.

[ioan]

The thread starter has not once supported violence in any form, what on earth are you up to?

The starter of the thread did justify the killing with the burning of the Koran, I suggest you go and read the thread first then we can continue discussing, oh and start with the threads title, you might even notice that it is not about the murdered people, it's about the burning of the Koran!

Cheers! :roleyes:

[markabilly]

I think the question should be asked why they were burning a koran in the first place? What was the motive and what were they hoping to achieve? If it wasn't to provoke anger I'd be interested to know what it was for.

It is called First Amendment.
Subjective motive is immaterial.
Sure one would think this message was designed to provoke, but it does not matter.
So what?

I thought you would know about such things, given where you live


Yeah but they also support koran burning so that proves the point really.

No they were saying the opposite-do not do it because of fear of retribution from extremists.

[BDunnell]

The starter of the thread did justify the killing with the burning of the Koran, I suggest you go and read the thread first then we can continue discussing, oh and start with the threads title, you might even notice that it is not about the murdered people, it's about the burning of the Koran!

Cheers! :roleyes:

ioan, you are wrong. Simply wrong.

[ioan]

Nowhere has the thread starter, at least, ever said anything of the sort. I don't want to write on his behalf, but you should apologise for stating that.

I did bold and underline it for you, just in case:


This absolutely infuriates me - a pastor in the US state of Florida recently burned a copy of the Koran, in the presence of the pastor who previously threatened to carry out the act.

What's now happened in Afghanistan is that protesters have stormed the UN - a direct result of their (the pastors) actions. I cannot believe their idiocy in carrying out such a despicable act - knowing full well that it would enrage people and increase tensions amongst people in Afghanistan. It only serves to fuel the extremists fire.

[henners88]

The starter of the thread did justify the killing with the burning of the Koran, I suggest you go and read the thread first then we can continue discussing, oh and start with the threads title, you might even notice that it is not about the murdered people, it's about the burning of the Koran!

Cheers! :roleyes:
He suggested that it may have been the cause and the koran burners knew full well that their would have been a backlash when they committed this act of total disrespect. Not once did the thread starter suggest the people murdered deserved it because of what happened in America and for your information I have read the thread from the very start and contributed before you appeared.

[BDunnell]

No they were saying the opposite-do not do it because of fear of retribution from extremists.

On that basis, do you agree that Muslim extremists should be able to do anything they want to an American on the grounds that they should not fear the consequences?

[BDunnell]

I did bold and underline it for you, just in case:

ioan, with respect, I can read English. I am a native speaker of the language.

[ioan]

He suggested that it may have been the cause and the koran burners knew full well that their would have been a backlash when they committed this act of total disrespect. Not once did the thread starter suggest the people murdered deserved it because of what happened in America and for your information I have read the thread from the very start and contributed before you appeared.

What part of :



What's now happened in Afghanistan is that protesters have stormed the UN - a direct result of their (the pastors) actions.

is difficult for you to understand in plain English?

[CaptainRaiden]

Peaceful people get so outraged about burning the Koran that they go and kill people who did nothing wrong?! I fail to see the logic in this idea.
I am tolerant of their religion and customs, how else do you think that I manage to visit the middle east every 2nd week?!

Ugh. Well, this is really bashing my head against the wall. Whatever you smoked obviously did a very good job. Anyway, this is my last post, and once again, I am not justifying the killings in ANY way, shape or form. I'm an Atheist, so I could really give a sh!t about religion. Also, I am NOT saying that the killings were BECAUSE of the Koran burnings. They could have very well even been pre-planned, and the lunatic murderers only found a new excuse to carry it out. I don't think anybody in their right mind can justify the killing of human beings based on the burning of some books.

All I said was that the burning of the Koran in any situation, especially by a Christian, and the icing on the cake, an American, is just too much of a messy situation. This is it for me in this thread.

Off to bed now to get up in time for the Cricket World Cup. Hopefully India wins it. Ciao everyone. See ya, wouldn't wanna be ya.

[markabilly]

http://static.divbyzero.nl/facepalm/doublefacepalm.jpg

/thread]

Dude, don't you hesitate. Jump on over there, and straighten them out. You can be the first on your block to be sent home in a box.
i am sure the head will be tossed in the box, if they can find it.

[ioan]

ioan, with respect, I can read English. I am a native speaker of the language. Nowhere in that passage does he advocate the burning of the Koran. This was what you accused him of. He did not say that. End of story.

Sorry, I think we mixed up too many posts from too many people and got a salad in the end.

Just to make it clear I do not agree with the thread started and Eki advocating that the murders are a result of what the pastor did.

[ioan]

What is this BS?

Freedom of speech.

[BDunnell]

Ugh. Well, this is really bashing my head against the wall. Whatever you smoked obviously did a very good job. Anyway, this is my last post, and once again, I am not justifying the killings in ANY way, shape or form. I'm an Atheist, so I could really give a sh!t about religion. Also, I am NOT saying that the killings were BECAUSE of the Koran burnings. They could have very well even been pre-planned, and the lunatic murderers only found a new excuse to carry it out. I don't think anybody in their right mind can justify the killing of human beings based on the burning of some books.

I shouldn't worry. I seem to remember that I once posted something criticising the powers-that-be in the UK for awarding a certain former East European dictator an honorary knighthood. ioan then offered a rebuttal that was more than mildly favourable to said murderer.

[BDunnell]

Sorry, I think we mixed up too many posts from too many people and got a salad in the end.

I think you may be right, hence my edit after I looked back...

[Bob Riebe]

No, that even if it is just a book in our eyes, it might be something more than that for people of that faith, so be tolerant of their customs or their religion, not the killings. As both you and I know, anybody who can kill another human being is not sane to begin with. But understand that there are peaceful, religious people who will be outraged by the Koran burning, and that is why what the two pastors did was idiotic.

As tolerant as they are of other religions and beliefs or is this some special world where only Muslim one-way streets are to be obeyed and feared?
That seems to be what you are saying.

In such a world only fools and cowards do not strike back and kill the ones forcing them to their knees.

[ioan]

On that basis, do you agree that Muslim extremists should be able to do anything they want to an American on the grounds that they should not fear the consequences?

As long as they keep to burning books or flags to make a point it's all fine I guess.

[BDunnell]

In such a world only fools and cowards do not strike back and kill the ones forcing them to their knees.

Kill — apparently your only answer, except when a vaguely left-wing President dares to mete out the violence, apparently.

[Bob Riebe]

That isn't really a justification though is it? I wouldn't invite my American friend and his girlfriend around for dinner and then after desert burn the American flag simply because I can and its not against the law. I would also be naive if I thought he wouldn't be offended by my act.
In such a case he and his girl friend would be fools for accepting the invitation, but then stupidity has just rewards.

[ioan]

I think you may be right, hence my edit after I looked back...

Thanks, my bad, I should have followed separate threads.

[BDunnell]

As long as they keep to burning books or flags to make a point it's all fine I guess.

So you were fine with the book-burning undertaken by the Nazis on Kristallnacht, so long as it was just to 'make a point'?

[ioan]

I am not justifying the killings in ANY way, shape or form. ...I don't think anybody in their right mind can justify the killing of human beings based on the burning of some books.

I didn't say you did it, I pointed to the thread starter and Eki.


All I said was that the burning of the Koran in any situation, especially by a Christian, and the icing on the cake, an American, is just too much of a messy situation.

You think if it was a priest of another religion and/or nationality burning the Koran it would have made a difference to what happened today? I don't think so.

[BDunnell]

I didn't say you did it, I pointed to the thread starter and Eki.

Where did the thread starter state that he believes it is right for people to kill others on the basis of a book-burning? He did not do so. He stated that there is a link between the two events, nothing more. This is very different from what you are insinuating.

[markabilly]

What is this BS?

The Law provides that right, a strange concept to grasp, when it does not fit your desire to condemn someone for excercizing that right, as examing subjective motive of a speaker is to engage in censorship.

[Bob Riebe]

We have freedom of speech in the UK but we don't have muppets like this performing self publicity stunts with no sense of what is acceptable with the attitude,"but its legal to do this"..... Christ America is supposed to be part of the free civilised world, which appears to be far too much power for a minority of simple minds. D!ckheads IMO.

What part of the word freedom do you not like?
Maybe the free part.

[ioan]

So you were fine with the book-burning undertaken by the Nazis on Kristallnacht, so long as it was just to 'make a point'?

We are comparing apples and oranges here, IMO.
The Nazis did what they did right in front of the Jews to intimidate them, while in a position of power.

We can not possibly compare this to someone burning a Koran in the US, or Islamist burning Bibles or Occidental flags in Afghanistan as a protest.

[BDunnell]

What part of the word freedom do you not like?
Maybe the free part.

Do you feel that people in the UK should be out burning the Koran?

[BDunnell]

We are comparing apples and oranges here, IMO.
The Nazis did what they did right in front of the Jews to intimidate them, while in a position of power.

We can not possibly compare this to someone burning a Koran in the US, or Islamist burning Bibles or Occidental flags in Afghanistan as a protest.

No. You said that book-burning is an acceptable means of making a point. Therefore, surely, that goes for everyone?

[Bob Riebe]

So you were fine with the book-burning undertaken by the Nazis on Kristallnacht, so long as it was just to 'make a point'?

There is a difference between a government burning books and individuals doing it.

[BDunnell]

There is a difference between a government burning books and individuals doing it.

Why?

[ioan]

Where did the thread starter state that he believes it is right for people to kill others on the basis of a book-burning? He did not do so. He stated that there is a link between the two events, nothing more. This is very different from what you are insinuating.

We are again misunderstanding each other.

Both the thread starter and Eki point to the burning of the Koran as being directly responsible to what happened in Afghanistan, and I disagree with this attempt of absolving the murderers of the blame (even if only partially).

[Bob Riebe]

Do you feel that people in the UK should be out burning the Koran?
If it is not illegal and they choose to do so, so be it.

[BDunnell]

We are again misunderstanding each other.

Both the thread starter and Eki point to the burning of the Koran as being directly responsible to what happened in Afghanistan, and I disagree with this attempt of absolving the murderers of the blame (even if only partially).

I am not misunderstanding you on this, ioan. Where did the thread starter state that those who carried out the murders were absolved of any blame? Read it again. Nowhere.

[ioan]

No. You said that book-burning is an acceptable means of making a point. Therefore, surely, that goes for everyone?

Why mix protests with intimidation? Do we need to push this discussion to the point of being absurd?
OK so be it, I can accept burning books, no matter how many of them as long as people are not killed.

[Bob Riebe]

Why?

If you do not understand the difference, I am not going to try to explain it, but let's put it this way, there is a reason exceedingly few citizen arrests occur in the U.S. despite the fact they are legal.

[BDunnell]

If it is not illegal and they choose to do so, so be it.

I am glad that Britons, up to now, have had more sense. Still, my countrymen are not immune from such bouts of stupidity if provoked by a combination of their lack of intelligence and a baying media, as illustrated by the attack on the home of a paediatrician that protesters confused with that of a paedophile.

[BDunnell]

Why mix protests with intimidation? Do we need to push this discussion to the point of being absurd?
OK so be it, I can accept burning books, no matter how many of them as long as people are not killed.

I'm glad we got that one sorted. You think that the Nazi book-burning would have been fine so long as no-one had been killed.

[Bob Riebe]

I am not misunderstanding you on this, ioan. Where did the thread starter state that those who carried out the murders were absolved of any blame? Read it again. Nowhere.
Where do they blame the murders in Afghanistan for their actions?

[ioan]

I am not misunderstanding you on this, ioan. Where did the thread starter state that those who carried out the murders were absolved of any blame? Read it again. Nowhere.

He did partially do it by implying that what happened was a direct result of the burning of the Koran.

I know we will now most probably have a long discussion about semantics, but this is how I understand the meaning of direct result.

[BDunnell]

Where do they blame the murders in Afghanistan for their actions?

Where do they not do so?

[ioan]

I'm glad we got that one sorted. You think that the Nazi book-burning would have been fine so long as no-one had been killed.

I would accept it.

[markabilly]

It would be harmless fun though Bob wouldn't it surely? Its not illegal to burn the American flag afterall and we can't expect people to get offended for something they are entitled to do whether its disrespectful or not.

Lets make one thing clear though I would never do such a thing and have huge respect for some Americans.

"offended"???? That is certainly your right to be offended and to speak out on the fact that you find it offensive because someone burns a Bible, a Koran, a flag or some other object you hold near and dear. Or do not hold near and dear.

Not only to be offended, but to speak out on such.

I would never support that you should be silenced from speaking out that you find it offensive---just the opposite.

But only a savage would kill somebody for such a thing, and the responsibility for the possibility that this may happen belongs solely to the mrudering savage and nobody else. No matter how hard anyone wishes to justify these murders as being the responsibility of someone other than these savages, the right of free speech on things of a pro or anti-religious nature, should never be abridged in a civilized country.

[BDunnell]

I would accept it.

Would you go to the memorial at the Bebelplatz in Berlin and defend the actions of the book-burners as being 'acceptable'?

[BDunnell]

But only a savage would kill somebody for such a thing

No-one — absolutely no-one — in this thread has doubted this in the slightest.

[ioan]

I live in a free society mate, but I also have an IQ over 135...

In today's free world we live in you will have to provide a certificate to support that claim.



The whole thing is pathetic.

Especially when using your , not certified as of yet, IQ level is used to make a point. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Would you go to the memorial at the Bebelplatz in Berlin and defend the actions of the book-burners as being 'acceptable'?

Only if having to chose between murder and book burning.

[BDunnell]

Only if having to chose between murder and book burning.

I find your notion that the action is not in the least provocative to certain people — not you or I, maybe, but certain people — surprising to say the least.

[ioan]

I find your notion that the action is not in the least provocative to certain people — not you or I, maybe, but certain people — surprising to say the least.

I am comparing book burning to murder, and I find one of them outweighing by an impressive amount of times the other one.
And even if there are nuances to book burning, I do not believe that we should put provocative or idiotic book burning on the same platter with intimidating destruction of books.

Anyway I think we deviated quite a bit from the thread's theme given that we are judging my moral standards against those of cold blooded murderers. :)

[BDunnell]

I am comparing book burning to murder, and I find one of them outweighing by an impressive amount of time the other one.
And even if there are nuances to book burning, I do not believe that we should put provocative or idiotic book burning on the same platter with intimidating destruction of books.

I would suggest that the book-burning by the Nazis was provocative as well as being an example of intimidating destruction. There was, after all, a section of society that found it acceptable and was in agreement with such actions.

[markabilly]

I live in a free society mate, but I also have an IQ over 135 and respect for people who live around me be they Indian, Chinese, Black, white, muslim, Sikh it doesn't matter. Saying its ok to insult someone simply because its legal is idiotic of the highest order. Its hiding behind the freedom of speech BS just to make a point which is designed to cause ill feeling. The whole thing is pathetic.


An IQ of 135 or 35, it does not matter. The fact that you find the koran burning offensive or pathetic, or glorious and heart warming is your right. Whether I agree with it or not, does not matter.

I actually find it none of the above, as I think it is funny to go around burning any books, as long as the government is no doing it.....and even funnier when someone gets all bent out over it..................

and totally beyond the pale of acceptable human conduct to kill somebody over it.

But stranger than fiction, funnier than stupid funny, is when people engage in the extremely stupid excercize of trying to justify the murder of 20 people because it happenned

But that is my personal opinion.

[ioan]

I would suggest that the book-burning by the Nazis was provocative as well as being an example of intimidating destruction. There was, after all, a section of society that found it acceptable and was in agreement with such actions.

I risk repeating myself, however I need to point out that I would accept book burning when the alternative is murder, however I never said that I would be in agreement with it as an intimidating tool.

And I am rather sure that the Nazis did not want to provoke the Jews, intimidation was their one and only scope.

[BDunnell]

I wonder whether some people here would truly accept every form of behaviour that's not illegal, or just those that happen to chime with their own views on a particular religion. I mean, I could go up to a sick elderly lady and call her an extremely rude word. It's not illegal. But I wouldn't, because such behaviour is completely beyond the pale to any right-thinking individual.

[BDunnell]

But stranger than fiction, funnier than stupid funny, is when people engage in the extremely stupid excercize of trying to justify the murder of 20 people because it happenned

No-one here has said anything to indicate that they consider these murders to be justifiable.

[ioan]

I wonder whether some people here would truly accept every form of behaviour that's not illegal, or just those that happen to chime with their own views on a particular religion. I mean, I could go up to a sick elderly lady and call her an extremely rude word. It's not illegal. But I wouldn't, because such behaviour is completely beyond the pale to any right-thinking individual.

Honestly, unless being a non-believer is a religion, I despise all religions equally.

[Bob Riebe]

Where do they not do so?

Here it is:

This absolutely infuriates me - a pastor in the US state of Florida recently burned a copy of the Koran, in the presence of the pastor who previously threatened to carry out the act.

What's now happened in Afghanistan is that protesters have stormed the UN - a direct result of their (the pastors) actions. I cannot believe their idiocy in carrying out such a despicable act - knowing full well that it would enrage people and increase tensions amongst people in Afghanistan. It only serves to fuel the extremists fire.

Show me where the Afghans are condemned.

[BDunnell]

Here it is:

This absolutely infuriates me - a pastor in the US state of Florida recently burned a copy of the Koran, in the presence of the pastor who previously threatened to carry out the act.

What's now happened in Afghanistan is that protesters have stormed the UN - a direct result of their (the pastors) actions. I cannot believe their idiocy in carrying out such a despicable act - knowing full well that it would enrage people and increase tensions amongst people in Afghanistan. It only serves to fuel the extremists fire.

Show me where the Afghans are condemned.

Show me where their actions are praised or even condoned.

[Bob Riebe]

I have no idea if the violence was even linked with the koran burning and if it was the people who did are just as demented as the idiot trying to offend people by burning their religious manuscript as far as I am concerned. Why didn't the idiot book burner do us all a favour and go and burn it on TV in Afghanistan?
I think you mean why didn't the, according to you, the people who whose acts of murder are no less, and no more, despicable than the one who burned a book, come to the U.S. and murder him.

[ioan]

Show me where their actions are praised or even condoned.

However the thread author takes one side when condemning the pastor for his actions and directly linking him to what happened in Afghanistan, without the slightest word against the murderers.

I know it's semantics, but it is still an obvious stance and the title only enforces the intent of the thread, that of condemning the pastor for what happened in Afghanistan.

[Bob Riebe]

Show me where their actions are praised or even condoned.

Quit trying to cop out. I copied it for you now highlight where the murders are condemned. You said they were.

[BDunnell]

However the thread author takes one side when condemning the pastor for his actions and directly linking him to what happened in Afghanistan, without the slightest word against the murderers.

I know it's semantics, but it is still an obvious stance and the title only enforces the intent of the thread, that of condemning the pastor for what happened in Afghanistan.

I don't consider it necessary for every opinion expressed here to be accompanied by clarification of another view. Were I to post that I don't like drinking milk, I would feel no need to add that this does not mean I dislike milk chocolate.

[Bob Riebe]

I wonder whether some people here would truly accept every form of behaviour that's not illegal, or just those that happen to chime with their own views on a particular religion. I mean, I could go up to a sick elderly lady and call her an extremely rude word. It's not illegal. But I wouldn't, because such behaviour is completely beyond the pale to any right-thinking individual.
In the U.S, or at least in the part of Minn. I am from, such an act when I was young could very well end up in a fist-fight.
The police might or would break it up and all would be sent home to cool-off.

Nowadays it is ignored- let go because to defend the social morals of a community is no longer tolerated. All would be arrested and all would end up in court.
The police state, and gov. mandated actions have replaced social standards and morals.

The Republicans are equally guilty of this sad state of affairs as the Democrats, maybe more so.

[ioan]

I don't consider it necessary for every opinion expressed here to be accompanied by clarification of another view. Were I to post that I don't like drinking milk, I would feel no need to add that this does not mean I dislike milk chocolate.

If it come to milk and chocolate, I agree. However when it comes to expressing views about lynching people, I find it interesting not to mention anything about the murderers while pointing the finger to someone else as possibly having played a part.

[BDunnell]

If it come to milk and chocolate, I agree. However when it comes to expressing views about lynching people, I find it interesting not to mention anything about the murderers while pointing the finger to someone else as possibly having played a part.

I don't think it's interesting at all. Generally, I would expect that members of this forum are decent people, and that therefore they would not condone murder.

[ioan]

I don't think it's interesting at all. Generally, I would expect that members of this forum are decent people, and that therefore they would not condone murder.

We obviously have different tastes about interesting things. Nothing bad with it.
And I am sure that the members of this board are decent people, no doubt about that.

[Eki]

Are you fu*king kidding me?!
You say that the fault lies with an idiot who burned a book and not with the retards that today killed 20 people, even by cutting of their heads?!

You know what? Why don't you move to Afghanistan and try to cuddle the fanatic Islamic people hoping, in vain, that one day they will not cut off your head?!
If a man in a zoo sees a tiger in a cage, opens the cage to let the tiger out and the tiger kills a few zoo goers, where does the fault lie? Is it the idiot's fault or the tiger's fault?

[Eki]

Do you, by chance, happen to know the difference between war and lynching?!
Yes, in a lynching, fewer people die.

[Eki]

So why not be free to burn a truckload of Korans if they are free to do whatever they want in the US?!
How far are we willing to go with the stupid political correctness before we get to the point that we are not allowed to eat pork because that offends some idiot who will that decide to detonate a bomb in a train station in Europe or USA.
There needs to be a limit set to everything.

There is a limit. They don't ask us to read the Koran, they just ask us to not burn it or defecate on it. I think that's a reasonable wish.

[Eki]

A war where people are killed, MY GOODNESS, oh the humanity!

On second thought that has what to do with what these murders did?
Just beyond your grasp, as usual.

And you could as well say "A riot where people are killed, MY GOODNESS, oh the humanity!" or "An act of terrorism where people are killed, MY GOODNESS, oh the humanity!"

Why didn't the Americans just shrug off the 9/11 attacks and forget about them, if they expect the Muslims to forget their own people killed by Americans?

[Hondo]

AndySpeed, X-ecutioner (great, peace loving name), and Eki, do you realize you're provoking those people by not being Musilm and being alive? The radical, jihadist Muslims claim to be directed by the Koran to convert the entire world to Islam and to destroy the infidels that won't be converted. I'm not a student of the Koran, but if that's true, then they are the "good Muslims" and there is no act short of conversion or death that will appease them. Meanwhile your"good Muslims" don't say much of anything and rarely if ever dispute the jihadsit's interpretation of the Koran. As a side note, your "good Muslims" also seem to enjoy a higher standard of living with more perks and priviliges than your average jihadist thug.

To help ease your own agony and the plight of your distraught Muslim friends, perhaps y'all could consider conversion to Islam or suicide. As it stands now, you're just provoking the situation.

[Eki]

Probably he felt like it. As long as no U.S. law is broken that is the only reason he or any other needs.
You don't need to do EVERYTHING the US laws allow, do you?

[GridGirl]

An IQ of 135 or 35, it does not matter. The fact that you find the koran burning offensive or pathetic, or glorious and heart warming is your right. Whether I agree with it or not, does not matter.

I actually find it none of the above, as I think it is funny to go around burning any books, as long as the government is no doing it.....and even funnier when someone gets all bent out over it..................

and totally beyond the pale of acceptable human excercize of trying to justify the murder of 20 people because it happenned

But that is my personal opinion.

I would be interested to know if you would still find the situation so funny if the UN incident had happened in the US and whether you would find it amusing if any future terrorist attacks on American soil are blamed on this incident.

I would be very surprised if those two pastors live to see Christmas. Its questionable whether they might make Easter to be fair.

[ioan]

I would be interested to know if you would still find the situation so funny if the UN incident had happened in the US and whether you would find it amusing if any future terrorist attacks on American soil are blamed on this incident.

I would be very surprised if those two pastors live to see Christmas. Its questionable whether they might make Easter to be fair.

Rather poor post by any standards, with huge IFs that can hardly be even considered good fiction.

[steveaki13]

This is only my opinion, but I am Athiest so I wouldn't be offended by burn the koran, bible or whatever, but I have to say that in todays world organised religion only ever seems to cause problems, whether its Koran burning offended said group, or tv shows offending christians by depicting Jesus or God or whatever.

I can see that religion was needed when no other answers were around, and that it was the way the west's societies were created and structured. (Good and Evil Argument), but It seems today in the UK with fewer and fewer people going to church, that religion is losing it's grip.

It always seems to me as a whole that organised religion causes so much conflict and divides, that we would be better off without it. I have no problem with people wanting or needing personal belief or guidance, but when masses of one religion believe that the burning of a book warrants the killing of people, it seems pointless.

The same applied in UK history, lack of respect for Church or the wrong Church led to executions and death, it seems we have have managed to come to our senses and realised people should be able to believe or not beleive whatever they want. We must just hope this one day happens in the rest of the world.

[ioan]

If a man in a zoo sees a tiger in a cage, opens the cage to let the tiger out and the tiger kills a few zoo goers, where does the fault lie? Is it the idiot's fault or the tiger's fault?

Another 'great' analogy by Eki. Did it take a long time for you to produce this 'pearl' of wisdom? I hope not.

[CaptainRaiden]

AndySpeed, X-ecutioner (great, peace loving name), and Eki, do you realize you're provoking those people by not being Musilm and being alive? The radical, jihadist Muslims claim to be directed by the Koran to convert the entire world to Islam and to destroy the infidels that won't be converted. I'm not a student of the Koran, but if that's true, then they are the "good Muslims" and there is no act short of conversion or death that will appease them. Meanwhile your"good Muslims" don't say much of anything and rarely if ever dispute the jihadsit's interpretation of the Koran. As a side note, your "good Muslims" also seem to enjoy a higher standard of living with more perks and priviliges than your average jihadist thug.

To help ease your own agony and the plight of your distraught Muslim friends, perhaps y'all could consider conversion to Islam or suicide. As it stands now, you're just provoking the situation.

What does the name have to do with me being peace-loving or not? It's an obvious reference to a famous DJ Crew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Ecutioners). So, I should have a boring name and a cock avatar like you to be considered peaceful? Wasn't your earlier name "Fiero"? ;)

And tell me one thing, have you actually ever read the Koran? I'm not talking about reading some quotes on an Islam hating website, but ever cared to read the whole book before making your opinion up? I haven't, and I don't claim to know Islam, far from it. What I also don't do is take some quotes out of context and start hating a whole group because of it. People who have ACTUALLY read the Koran tell me different, even non-Muslims who cared to pick up the book and read it through, told me that it doesn't spread hate, far from it.

So then should these "normal" people pay the price for what some brainwashed extremists do or have done? In ANY case, what good can come from burning some religious group's holy book? People are very aware of what some trigger happy idiot extremists are able and willing to do. Nobody is justifying the deaths that happened, it was inhuman, but why was the book burned in the first place??!? What are they trying to achieve from burning a book apart from sparking outrage when they're very aware how fanatic the Muslims are about it? :confused:

I'm an Atheist, burn a 1000 books for all I care. But then 99% the world's population doesn't think like me. Do you go out of your house on some random morning and burn another religion's holy book in the public park? Again, I still don't get it, on a random Friday, what compelled those pastors to go ahead and burn the book? WHY??

[CaptainRaiden]

I shouldn't worry. I seem to remember that I once posted something criticising the powers-that-be in the UK for awarding a certain former East European dictator an honorary knighthood. ioan then offered a rebuttal that was more than mildly favourable to said murderer.

Why am I not surprised?

[markabilly]

If a man in a zoo sees a tiger in a cage, opens the cage to let the tiger out and the tiger kills a few zoo goers, where does the fault lie? Is it the idiot's fault or the tiger's fault?

and your point is??
Oh that should be obvious: You reduce Moslems to being savage animals and should be locked up forever or killed as they are not ever to be trusted to be free among civilized people.

[markabilly]

[quote="X-ecutioner"]
And tell me one thing, have you actually ever read the Koran? I'm not talking about reading some quotes on an Islam hating website, but ever cared to read the whole book before making your opinion up? I haven't, and I don't claim to know Islam, far from it. What I also don't do is take some quotes out of context and start hating a whole group because of it. People who have ACTUALLY read the Koran tell me different, even non-Muslims who cared to pick up the book and read it through, told me that it doesn't spread hate, far from it.

[quote]


Until you do read it, you should take your own advice and shut your pie hole.

I have read it, from front to back several times. I have also read the Bible from front to back as well.
The Koran is similiar to the old testament. Much fire and brimstone, killing off of nonbeleivers.

New Testament is much different. Indeed, just the opposite.

Under the Koran and Old Testament, the killings are very justified

[markabilly]

What

So then should these "normal" people pay the price for what some brainwashed extremists do or have done? In ANY case, what good can come from burning some religious group's holy book? People are very aware of what some trigger happy idiot extremists are able and willing to do. Nobody is justifying the deaths that happened, it was inhuman, but why was the book burned in the first place??!? What are they trying to achieve from burning a book apart from sparking outrage when they're very aware how fanatic the Muslims are about it? :confused:

I'm an Atheist, burn a 1000 books for all I care. But then 99% the world's population doesn't think like me. Do you go out of your house on some random morning and burn another religion's holy book in the public park? Again, I still don't get it, on a random Friday, what compelled those pastors to go ahead and burn the book? WHY??


dude, as anyone can see, you contradict yourself, but clearly you blame the book burners for these killings.
As does Eki, henners, and a number of the rest of you.

[markabilly]

I would be interested to know if you would still find the situation so funny if the UN incident had happened in the US and whether you would find it amusing if any future terrorist attacks on American soil are blamed on this incident.

I would be very surprised if those two pastors live to see Christmas. Its questionable whether they might make Easter to be fair.

yeah these two need to be killed like those cartoonists who made fun of the pedo prophet, who loved screwing 9 year old girls and labelled that 9 yo as his favorite among his many.

Good thing you do not live in a true moslem world like iran or afganistan. By the time you were 12 years old, you might well have been married into a harem and with child, and you certainly would not know much about how to read or write, and certainly would not be posting on the internet, but if you did and was caught, you be receiving some stoning to the head, be hung, beheaded or some other form of mercy.


In any event, that was not what i said. I said killing people over burning a Koran is beyond acceptable human conduct. period.

[CaptainRaiden]

and your point is??
Oh that should be obvious: You reduce Moslems to being savage animals and should be locked up forever or killed as they are not ever to be trusted to be free among civilized people.

The point is beyond your intellect and several others in this thread.


Until you do read it, you should take your own advice and shut your pie hole.

I have read it, from front to back several times. I have also read the Bible from front to back as well.
The Koran is similiar to the old testament. Much fire and brimstone, killing off of nonbeleivers.

New Testament is much different. Indeed, just the opposite.

Under the Koran and Old Testament, the killings are very justified

You read it "several" times. Well, I'll take your word on it. And you think that burning their book is absolutely okay, and if given the chance you'd do the same, right?


dude, as anyone can see, you contradict yourself, but clearly you blame the book burners for these killings.
As does Eki, henners, and a number of the rest of you.

Where is the contradiction?!? Are all of you group smoking some exotic herb rolled in Koran paper and seeing something which is clearly not there?? Where in all of my posts, even once, have I said that the killings are BECAUSE of the book burning? Please do brighten up. Or like somebody else said before, that people have the right to feel "alive". If burning some holy book on national television is people's way of feeling alive, then they really need to get a life. Losers.

[CaptainRaiden]

yeah these two need to be killed like those cartoonists who made fun of the pedo prophet, who loved screwing 9 year old girls and labelled that 9 yo as his favorite among his many.

Good thing you do not live in a true moslem world like iran or afganistan. By the time you were 12 years old, you might well have been married into a harem and with child, and you certainly would not know much about how to read or write, and certainly would not be posting on the internet, but if you did and was caught, you be receiving some stoning to the head, be hung, beheaded or some other form of mercy.

So, you've clearly read the Koran several times. And now you have clearly lived in a Muslim world like Iran and Afghanistan as well, right? How many years? Dude, nobody denied that the Muslim world has their problems, they have their weird customs, they treat their women like camel, there are more extremists in the Muslim religion than any other, almost all major terrorist groups are Muslims etc. etc. But nobody gave the Christians any RIGHT to try and teach them that their religion is wrong or that they don't agree with it, and burning their holy book is certainly not the way to go about it.

If you really wanna feel "alive", go and burn a Koran in Pakistan in a public square and then reason with them that they shouldn't stone you, because it's unacceptable human conduct. By burning another religion's holy book, you also displayed unacceptable human conduct.

[CaptainRaiden]

Just like I don't understand why the F were peaceful UN workers targeted and killed by the extremist Muslims -- I mean if their beef is with the US because of the unrest there, they should have targeted those soldiers who were posing with Afghan dead bodies and slicing their fingers as war souvenirs. In the same way I don't understand what were those pastors trying to gain by burning the Koran? And please don't give idiotic excuses like "right of first amendment". It also includes the devil of Detroit street, the woman who was making fun of the terminally ill girl.

Just because there are no restrictions on freedom of speech, doesn't give anybody the right to do whatever the hell they want. And if they do, do it, then they should assume responsibility and THEY should pay the price for it, not another innocent person.

[GridGirl]

yeah these two need to be killed like those cartoonists who made fun of the pedo prophet, who loved screwing 9 year old girls and labelled that 9 yo as his favorite among his many.

Good thing you do not live in a true moslem world like iran or afganistan. By the time you were 12 years old, you might well have been married into a harem and with child, and you certainly would not know much about how to read or write, and certainly would not be posting on the internet, but if you did and was caught, you be receiving some stoning to the head, be hung, beheaded or some other form of mercy.


In any event, that was not what i said. I said killing people over burning a Koran is beyond acceptable human conduct. period.

I didnt say those two pastors need to or should be killed but I wouldn't br surprised if thats what happens to them. Its just an opinion. I happen to think that their actions will have a much bigger effect on US homeland security which the pastors just dont quite seem to comprehend.

Oh and by the way my father is a muslim and my world has been fine and dandy thank you very much. However I would point out that I have been Christened and brought up in Christian education. I do have family that have been bought up in a moslem world as you put it and they weren't married by the time they were 12 years old, haven't been married into a harem and with child, and they do know how to read or write, and they certainly are on the internet, and haven't been caught or received some stoning to the head, or hung, or beheaded etc. You seem to have who a narrow minded view of a very large religion based upon they exeriences some receive in certain parts of the world. Like X-ecutioner says. Normal law abiding muslim citizens are boring.

[markabilly]

Just like I don't understand why the F were peaceful UN workers targeted and killed by the extremist Muslims -- I mean if their beef is with the US because of the unrest there, they should have targeted those soldiers who were posing with Afghan dead bodies and slicing their fingers as war souvenirs. In the same way I don't understand what were those pastors trying to gain by burning the Koran? And please don't give idiotic excuses like "right of first amendment". It also includes the devil of Detroit street, the woman who was making fun of the terminally ill girl.

Just because there are no restrictions on freedom of speech, doesn't give anybody the right to do whatever the hell they want. And if they do, do it, then they should assume responsibility and THEY should pay the price for it, not another innocent person.


And what gives you the right to dictate what others should say and beleive?

Why should you have that right and not me?
Or Dunnel?
Or henners?
or Reibe?
Obama, bush or anyone?

They do not have that right, nor do i have it, and that is the difference between the USA and savages

Which is what you do not get. You think it is okay as long as you think it it okay, and above all else, it must not incite some dumbsnot to go killing people in your opinion.

make up your mind, and quite being "narrow minded" and hypocritical. :rolleyes:

[markabilly]

I didnt say those two pastors need to or should be killed but I wouldn't br surprised if thats what happens to them. Its just an opinion. I happen to think that their actions will have a much bigger effect on US homeland security which the pastors just dont quite seem to comprehend.

Oh and by the way my father is a muslim and my world has been fine and dandy thank you very much. However I would point out that I have been Christened and brought up in Christian education. I do have family that have been bought up in a moslem world as you put it and they weren't married by the time they were 12 years old, haven't been married into a harem and with child, and they do know how to read or write, and they certainly are on the internet, and haven't been caught or received some stoning to the head, or hung, or beheaded etc. You seem to have who a narrow minded view of a very large religion based upon they exeriences some receive in certain parts of the world. Like X-ecutioner says. Normal law abiding muslim citizens are boring.

yeah, because they live in a westernized world as you do. Go preaching that to the husbands of the 12 year olds and under in Iran or Afganistan, and see how long you live.

I would prefer that you not do that, as I would not want to see you hurt.

[CaptainRaiden]

And what gives you the right to dictate what others should say and beleive?

Why should you have that right and not me?
Or Dunnel?
Or henners?
or Reibe?
Obama, bush or anyone?

They do not have that right, nor do i have it, and that is the difference between the USA and savages

Which is what you do not get. You think it is okay as long as you think it it okay, and above all else, it must not incite some dumbsnot to go killing people in your opinion.

make up your mind, and quite being "narrow minded" and hypocritical. :rolleyes:

YOU are calling me narrow minded. :laugh: That's nice. And I didn't dictate you to say or do ANY thing. YOU are the one coming into this thread and saying that it is okay to burn the Koran, and if given the chance you would do the same. All I asked was is there a sane reason to do so? The extremists who killed those UN workers are definitely 100% insane and savages. But the pastors who burned the Koran aren't level headed either. Get that into your pea sized brain.

[CaptainRaiden]

yeah, because they live in a westernized world as you do. Go preaching that to the husbands of the 12 year olds and under in Iran or Afganistan, and see how long you live.

I would prefer that you not do that, as I would not want to see you hurt.

How the feck do you know how they live in Iran? Have you lived there? In fact, have you even lived in Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia or any of the other Muslim country in Asia or the Middle East, or any Arab countries? Damn, the 1.6 billion Muslims around the world are just making home-made bombs to attack USA right now. Imagine if all of them were terrorists, just like in your dreams. That's why Hollywood stars are buying properties in Dubai. :rolleyes: So, just like some other morons, all your opinions are based on what you see on the TV, right?

The handful that killed those UN workers are extremists, savages, people with no education, who are brainwashed by radical propaganda, same as the terrorists who were part of 9/11 or the ones who attacked and killed countless Indians in Mumbai, India. If you would have read about them, they come from villages, lured away by money, brainwashed and turned into jihadis for as less as $2000. I would say much like my parents who are brainwashed by the Church, and Jesus is everywhere. I'm not a Muslim sympathizer. Having known enough of them, I don't jump like a trigger happy idiot at the mention of Islam.

Not all Muslims are poor, not all of them are brainwashed. Unless your pea sized, non-educated brain is able to make this distinction, you will continue to think the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world are all terrorists.

[DexDexter]

YOU are calling me narrow minded. :laugh: That's nice. And I didn't dictate you to say or do ANY thing. YOU are the one coming into this thread and saying that it is okay to burn the Koran, and if given the chance you would do the same. All I asked was is there a sane reason to do so? The extremists who killed those UN workers are definitely 100% insane and savages. But the pastors who burned the Koran aren't level headed either. Get that into your pea sized brain.

Time to hit the ignore button perhaps?

[CaptainRaiden]

Time to hit the ignore button perhaps?

I'm seriously considering it.

[markabilly]

How the feck do you know how they live in Iran? Have you lived there? In fact, have you even lived in Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia or any of the other Muslim country in Asia or the Middle East, or any Arab countries? Damn, the 1.6 billion Muslims around the world are just making home-made bombs to attack USA right now. Imagine if all of them were terrorists, just like in your dreams. That's why Hollywood stars are buying properties in Dubai. :rolleyes: So, just like some other morons, all your opinions are based on what you see on the TV, right?

The handful that killed those UN workers are extremists, savages, people with no education, who are brainwashed by radical propaganda, same as the terrorists who were part of 9/11 or the ones who attacked and killed countless Indians in Mumbai, India. If you would have read about them, they come from villages, lured away by money, brainwashed and turned into jihadis for as less as $2000. I would say much like my parents who are brainwashed by the Church, and Jesus is everywhere. I'm not a Muslim sympathizer. Having known enough of them, I don't jump like a trigger happy idiot at the mention of Islam.

Not all Muslims are poor, not all of them are brainwashed. Unless your pea sized, non-educated brain is able to make this distinction, you will continue to think the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world are all terrorists.


mumble on and like I said before, practice what you preach.

You obviously do not know what I wrote or understood it, as I did not say her family lived there.
But I seen enough to know what happens there, just like the attack on the UN workers.

But go on, keep trying justify what the savages did while trying to deny that you are trying to justify their deaths

[race aficionado]

Burning The Koran = Stupid

Killing others because you are pissed off because they burned your Holly book = Stupid

Trying to convince someone else that has a different opinion than yours on this topic = :dozey:

[steveaki13]

Burning The Koran = Stupid

Killing others because you are pissed off because they burned your Holly book = Stupid

Trying to convince someone else that has a different opinion than yours on this topic = :dozey:

This whole thread has become nasty.

Shame people can't discuss a topic without anger or attitude.

Peoples views differ so what! Your right on something, others are right on others deal with it and stop the endless trying to convince every one your view is better or more important than anyone else.

[CaptainRaiden]

You obviously do not know what I wrote or understood it, as I did not say her family lived there. But I seen enough to know what happens there, just like the attack on the UN workers.

:laugh: Sure you do from your extensive experience. :rotflmao:


But go on, keep trying justify what the savages did while trying to deny that you are trying to justify their deaths

And you keep believing that while you have your Koran barbecue...

[Eki]

Go preaching that to the husbands of the 12 year olds and under in Iran or Afganistan, and see how long you live.

Might be difficult to find them, since the marriageable age for women in Iran and Afghanistan is 16. But maybe you'll find some in Massachusetts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age


Afghanistan: 18 for males and 16 for females, more than half of marriages involve females under 16.[20]

Iran: 18 for male, 16 for female

Massachusetts: 18 for first marriage, 14 (male) 12 (female) with parental and judicial consent.[56

[CaptainRaiden]

You obviously do not know what I wrote or understood it, as I did not say her family lived there.

I understood very well what you meant. I asked you how the heck would you know about Muslim lifestyle in Iran or other Islam countries? Have you lived in one?

[Bob Riebe]

If a man in a zoo sees a tiger in a cage, opens the cage to let the tiger out and the tiger kills a few zoo goers, where does the fault lie? Is it the idiot's fault or the tiger's fault?

Are you saying the Muslims are brain limited like animals; hmm seems one earlier poster was reducing their actions to those similar to a rabid dog- oh well.

[Bob Riebe]

There is a limit. They don't ask us to read the Koran, they just ask us to not burn it or defecate on it. I think that's a reasonable wish.
So we can make reasonalbe requests of how Christians or Jews are treated in Muslim countries and you will fully expect them to honor them?
After all that would be reasonable.

[Bob Riebe]

You don't need to do EVERYTHING the US laws allow, do you?
What I do is not part of the thread but whether or not I do anything as long as others do not try to stop me from doing a legal act I am content.

[Bob Riebe]

I would be interested to know if you would still find the situation so funny if the UN incident had happened in the US and whether you would find it amusing if any future terrorist attacks on American soil are blamed on this incident.

I would be very surprised if those two pastors live to see Christmas. Its questionable whether they might make Easter to be fair.
One can only hope the Obama Adm. would have the balls to hunt the murdering *******s down and kill them.
Of course part of his election rhetoric was he was going to hunt Osama down and kill him, so I would not put much faith in his capabilities.

[Eki]

So we can make reasonalbe requests of how Christians or Jews are treated in Muslim countries and you will fully expect them to honor them?
After all that would be reasonable.
Yes, and it would also be reasonable to expect them not to burn Bibles.

[Malbec]

The handful that killed those UN workers are extremists, savages, people with no education, who are brainwashed by radical propaganda, same as the terrorists who were part of 9/11 or the ones who attacked and killed countless Indians in Mumbai, India. If you would have read about them, they come from villages, lured away by money, brainwashed and turned into jihadis for as less as $2000. I would say much like my parents who are brainwashed by the Church, and Jesus is everywhere. I'm not a Muslim sympathizer. Having known enough of them, I don't jump like a trigger happy idiot at the mention of Islam.

This really isn't a difficult point to comprehend is it?

As for Iranian women and their education, Iran's problem is that the women there are crowding the men out of universities because they perform better throughout the education system just as they do in the west. An Iranian doctor I spoke to recently complained that if the proportion of female medical students kept increasing at its current rate they wouldn't have any male ones left within a decade.

But no markabilly, they're actually all illiterate. As any internationally accepted figures don't show.

To have the audacity to claim that you know how things are there over and above those who actually have been to those places or have relatives there is unbelievable. Get a grip.

As for those extremists responsible for this ridiculous episode, both sides need to have their heads examined.

If the pastor who oversaw the Koran burnings had courage to match his convictions he'd have done it himself in Kabul high street so the only person to pay the consequences would have been himself and not fellow American soldiers in Afghanistan or (as it turned out) UN workers who had nothing whatsoever to do with this. If he had any balls at all he would have done it himself instead of backing down a few months ago and merely 'overseeing' someone else doing it this time. Pathetic.

Same goes for the morons who stormed into a UN compound and killed and mutilated people there to help them. It doesn't take much intellect to realise that the UN workers were not responsible for the Koran burning but there you go. As others have said the ones involved aren't the sharpest tools in the box but that doesn't excuse their behaviour in any way.

At least most intelligent people around the world can see that the American pastor is not representative of the millions of decent religious Christian Americans, nor the ****witted Afghan murderers representative of the billions of decent Muslims around the world.

[Bob Riebe]

Yes, and it would also be reasonable to expect them not to burn Bibles.
Bring a Bible into Saudi Arabia and depending on your nationality you are either jailed or executed.

So what is your point?

A good sign, the only place I have seen any blame put on the pastor is on this board, not even NPR.

[Bob Riebe]

This whole thread has become nasty.

Shame people can't discuss a topic without anger or attitude.

Peoples views differ so what! Your right on something, others are right on others deal with it and stop the endless trying to convince every one your view is better or more important than anyone else.

I believe the responses to the original poster's rhetoric is exactly what he wanted.

[BDunnell]

I believe the responses to the original poster's rhetoric is exactly what he wanted.

I think the original poster should speak for himself. I can't imagine anyone wishing you, given your manner and views, to put words into their mouth.

[markabilly]

How the feck do you know how they live in Iran? Have you lived there? In fact, have you even lived in Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia or any of the other Muslim country in Asia or the Middle East, or any Arab countries? Damn, the 1.6 billion Muslims around the world are just making home-made bombs to attack USA right now. Imagine if all of them were terrorists, just like in your dreams. That's why Hollywood stars are buying properties in Dubai. :rolleyes: So, just like some other morons, all your opinions are based on what you see on the TV, right?

The handful that killed those UN workers are extremists, savages, people with no education, who are brainwashed by radical propaganda, same as the terrorists who were part of 9/11 or the ones who attacked and killed countless Indians in Mumbai, India. If you would have read about them, they come from villages, lured away by money, brainwashed and turned into jihadis for as less as $2000. I would say much like my parents who are brainwashed by the Church, and Jesus is everywhere. I'm not a Muslim sympathizer. Having known enough of them, I don't jump like a trigger happy idiot at the mention of Islam.

Not all Muslims are poor, not all of them are brainwashed. Unless your pea sized, non-educated brain is able to make this distinction, you will continue to think the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world are all terrorists.

Dubi???? That was the place they were going to have an F1 race.......

Brainwashed for sure.

[markabilly]

This really isn't a difficult point to comprehend is it?

As for Iranian women and their education, Iran's problem is that the women there are crowding the men out of universities because they perform better throughout the education system just as they do in the west. An Iranian doctor I spoke to recently complained that if the proportion of female medical students kept increasing at its current rate they wouldn't have any male ones left within a decade.

But no markabilly, they're actually all illiterate. As any internationally accepted figures don't show.

To have the audacity to claim that you know how things are there over and above those who actually have been to those places or have relatives there is unbelievable. Get a grip.

As for those extremists responsible for this ridiculous episode, both sides need to have their heads examined.

If the pastor who oversaw the Koran burnings had courage to match his convictions he'd have done it himself in Kabul high street so the only person to pay the consequences would have been himself and not fellow American soldiers in Afghanistan or (as it turned out) UN workers who had nothing whatsoever to do with this. If he had any balls at all he would have done it himself instead of backing down a few months ago and merely 'overseeing' someone else doing it this time. Pathetic.

Same goes for the morons who stormed into a UN compound and killed and mutilated people there to help them. It doesn't take much intellect to realise that the UN workers were not responsible for the Koran burning but there you go. As others have said the ones involved aren't the sharpest tools in the box but that doesn't excuse their behaviour in any way.

At least most intelligent people around the world can see that the American pastor is not representative of the millions of decent religious Christian Americans, nor the ****witted Afghan murderers representative of the billions of decent Muslims around the world.

Yeah and you have been there ?

Let me guess, they all got laws against murder??
Oh yeah, and you are another one who blames the burners




If the pastor who oversaw the Koran burnings had courage to match his convictions he'd have done it himself in Kabul high street so the only person to pay the consequences would have been himself and not fellow American soldiers in Afghanistan or (as it turned out) UN workers who had nothing whatsoever to do with this. If he had any balls at all he would have done it himself instead of backing down a few months ago and merely 'overseeing' someone else doing it this time.



Have you forgottten:

http://explorerkitteninafghanistan.blogspot.com/

read all those entries, and then keep talking. Unfortunately, I can not find the old thread about this murder, but my money says you were one of those who was blaming her for being murdered.

[Malbec]

Yeah and you have been there ?

Yes, in more peaceful times. When were you there?


Let me guess, they all got laws against murder??
Oh yeah, and you are another one who blames the burners

Whats the matter markabilly?

Didn't have the concentration span to get to the second half of my post? I blame both sides. Is that short enough for you?


Have you forgottten:

http://explorerkitteninafghanistan.blogspot.com/

read all those entries, and then keep talking. Unfortunately, I can not find the old thread about this murder, but my money says you were one of those who was blaming her for being murdered.

Assumptions assumptions. Makes an ass out of you.

I knew her by reputation, the London medical world not being a large one. And yes, I blame the thieves who kidnapped and killed her. I also know that those guys who did that were not representative of all the Afghans, just representative of the bandit groups that roam around the country. Can you understand that concept?

[Bob Riebe]

I think the original poster should speak for himself. I can't imagine anyone wishing you, given your manner and views, to put words into their mouth.
My opinion, I will state what I wish. If I am wrong, I am wrong but nothing indicates that.

I doubt he, with your perponderance of posts that simply attack others opinion minus any input to the topic thread, wants yours either.

[airshifter]

At least most intelligent people around the world can see that the American pastor is not representative of the millions of decent religious Christian Americans, nor the ****witted Afghan murderers representative of the billions of decent Muslims around the world.

But with this statement lies the problem of the debate here... the lack of intelligent people looking at the issue without extreme bias towards one of the involved parties.

[CaptainRaiden]

This really isn't a difficult point to comprehend is it?

As for Iranian women and their education, Iran's problem is that the women there are crowding the men out of universities because they perform better throughout the education system just as they do in the west. An Iranian doctor I spoke to recently complained that if the proportion of female medical students kept increasing at its current rate they wouldn't have any male ones left within a decade.

But no markabilly, they're actually all illiterate. As any internationally accepted figures don't show.

To have the audacity to claim that you know how things are there over and above those who actually have been to those places or have relatives there is unbelievable. Get a grip.

As for those extremists responsible for this ridiculous episode, both sides need to have their heads examined.

If the pastor who oversaw the Koran burnings had courage to match his convictions he'd have done it himself in Kabul high street so the only person to pay the consequences would have been himself and not fellow American soldiers in Afghanistan or (as it turned out) UN workers who had nothing whatsoever to do with this. If he had any balls at all he would have done it himself instead of backing down a few months ago and merely 'overseeing' someone else doing it this time. Pathetic.

Same goes for the morons who stormed into a UN compound and killed and mutilated people there to help them. It doesn't take much intellect to realise that the UN workers were not responsible for the Koran burning but there you go. As others have said the ones involved aren't the sharpest tools in the box but that doesn't excuse their behaviour in any way.

At least most intelligent people around the world can see that the American pastor is not representative of the millions of decent religious Christian Americans, nor the ****witted Afghan murderers representative of the billions of decent Muslims around the world.

I think you have just made too much sense for the Muslim hating crowd here to understand. :up: Besides I don't think that markabilly would understand all of it even if he reads it several times. ;)

[CaptainRaiden]

Dubi???? That was the place they were going to have an F1 race.......

Brainwashed for sure.

Huh?? :confused:

[BDunnell]

I think you have just made too much sense for the Muslim hating crowd here to understand. :up: Besides I don't think that markabilly would understand all of it even if he reads it several times. ;)

Some of us have been known to have that problem in reverse.

[markabilly]

Some of us have been known to have that problem in reverse.


Another post that simply attacks others without any input.

[markabilly]

. I also know that those guys who did that were not representative of all the Afghans, just representative of the bandit groups that roam around the country. Can you understand that concept?

You mean the extremists who ran the country until the USA pushed them off their pedestal aka taliban.

I am sure you talked with them and received their personal assurances.

[ioan]

Why am I not surprised?

Because you are clueless and full of prejudices?

[harsha]

from what i've known about muslims , they are very religious...probably more bordering on fanaticism than any other religion....Muslims are in a position where they believe that everyone is against their country and religion and all the other countries are abetting them...which is the reason why i don't agree with what has been done....Religion makes enough fools of people as it is , you don't need a pastor burning the Koran to make more fools

[CaptainRaiden]

Because you are clueless and full of prejudices?

Oh yeah, I am prejudiced. That's why I've been wasting my time here telling people not to generalize against a whole religion because of some extremists. Well done, ioan, once again. :rolleyes:

[Daniel]

There was a program on BBC 2 last night called 'America's Most Hated Family' and I thought about this thread and the people who support free speech no matter what the view is. I am sure you are well aware of this cult which attends funerals of dead soldiers, and laughs at families whose loved one are dying of cancer because they believe it is gods judgement for something these people have done wrong and they love celebrating a sinner going to hell. Whilst most of America or every decent person in the world dislikes their morals, we have also created a society where this is perfectly acceptable.

I have no problem with free speech but I must go back to my original point which was laughed off here and that is freedom to speak but with a sense of what is appropiate. Another way of looking at it would be common sense. Standing outside a funeral for soldier and chanting that he is a fag is deaply offensive but it is not illegal in a free society. Burning a koran is not illegal but its deeply offensive to those who believe in it and just goes to show why freedom of speech and fundamentalist religion just don't go together IMO.

What are your views on this lovely family who exercise this great right we have?

yeah but they're American and deserve free speach.

[DexDexter]

yeah but they're American and deserve free speach.

Spot on. One must have freedom to say whatever one wants, no matter what the consequences are. I don't understand how these free this and that-posters approve of this forum since this is regulated and you cannot do whatever you want without getting banned. It's obviously not free. :rolleyes:

[gadjo_dilo]

Sad to see that we have some "talibans" even on this forum. What is really surprising is that they aren't on muslim's side........

Horrible things like those that happened could be avoided if we learnt to respect not only each other's faith but also each other's feelings. We can do this only if we admit we're different but not better/worse than the others. But for this we should really try to know and understand the "opposite" side. At this moment none of the two camps are ready for this but unfortunately each is ready to judge.

One of you said that due to news values we get to see muslims burning the flags not muslims living an ordinary life. And I add that due to the same point of view they see a mad man burning a holy book but not the aspects of an ordinary western family. I wonder if it's really fair to appreciate people by watching some news on TV.... Maybe it's time to read some books or watch documentaries about other cultures and civilizations.

At the end of the day, due to different backgrounds, we can't change our mentalities but at least we can try to understand the others and live in peace.

[Daniel]

At the end of it all if this tard hadn't burnt the Koran those people would be alive and that's the fact of the matter.

[harsha]

an act like this gives an excuse for the fanatics to do what they want. It's another matter that they do not need an excuse to do something like this , but why give them the ammo

[Spiderman]

Burning someones religious books might not be acceptable, but killing innocent people as a consequence isn't either.

[DexDexter]

Burning someones religious books might not be acceptable, but killing innocent people as a consequence isn't either.

That goes without saying.

[BDunnell]

Burning someones religious books might not be acceptable, but killing innocent people as a consequence isn't either.

Again, I ask: where on earth has anyone here even remotely suggested that killing people as a consequence is acceptable? Saying that it is acceptable is very different from saying that the two things are linked.

[Bob Riebe]

yeah but they're American and deserve free speach.

The United States Supreme Court agreed with you.

[Bob Riebe]

Oh yeah, I am prejudiced. That's why I've been wasting my time here telling people not to generalize against a whole religion because of some extremists. Well done, ioan, once again. :rolleyes:
As Tony said, the Bible is a closed end book where the supposed extremes of the Old Testament no longer apply; the Koran is open ended in which the extremes apply today and forever until their supposed second coming happens; therefore their entire religion is to be condemned because their precious books condones and encourages what you call extremists are doing.

[CaptainRaiden]

As Tony said, the Bible is a closed end book where the supposed extremes of the Old Testament no longer apply; the Koran is open ended in which the extremes apply today and forever until their supposed second coming happens; therefore their entire religion is to be condemned because their precious books condones and encourages what you call extremists are doing.

And I guess some Christians, in particular those two pastors, have taken it upon themselves to do that, and probably you'd join them too if given the chance? Just two questions though.

1. Is burning what they consider their "holy book" the right way to go about it?

2. If those pastors exercise their freedom of speech, and according to you should definitely condemn the entire religion, shouldn't they have taken responsibility for their actions and done it in a public square in Kabul, Afghanistan instead of the security of their own country? Don't you think it would be much more effective that way? And besides, no innocent UN workers would have to lose their lives as a consequence.

[Bob Riebe]

And I guess some Christians, in particular those two pastors, have taken it upon themselves to do that, and probably you'd join them too if given the chance? Just two questions though.

1. Is burning what they consider their "holy book" the right way to go about it?

2. If those pastors exercise their freedom of speech, and according to you should definitely condemn the entire religion, shouldn't they have taken responsibility for their actions and done it in a public square in Kabul, Afghanistan instead of the security of their own country? Don't you think it would be much more effective that way? And besides, no innocent UN workers would have to lose their lives as a consequence.
Why they burned the Koran, probably, my opinion, so what has happened would happen.

That it continued beyond the first day?

Probably fulfilling the burner's dream beyond all expectations.

Does the Christian Faith have a place in politics- no.

[CaptainRaiden]

As Tony said, the Bible is a closed end book where the supposed extremes of the Old Testament no longer apply; the Koran is open ended in which the extremes apply today and forever until their supposed second coming happens; therefore their entire religion is to be condemned because their precious books condones and encourages what you call extremists are doing.

Also, don't you think that it all depends on how one interprets a book? Hasn't there been equal amounts of violence in human history by people who interpreted the Bible wrong, where they justified the killing of jews, black people, even rapes and child molestation all based on a belief that God or the Bible wanted them to do it?

If the Koran really teaches nothing but violence, does that mean the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, that's about 22% of the world's population, are all extremists? Can one comprehend what kind of a place the world would be if that were the case? Or should I be thankful that the 4 or 5 Muslim people I know haven't tried to convert me to Islam or attack me even?

I think this aspect of religion turned me away from it and made me an Atheist. This messing about with other religions instead of minding their own business. My parents, who are staunch Christians by the way, also have a not so favorable view on Muslims. Even more so a reason for me to be an Atheist and adopt the live-and-let-live philosophy.

[CaptainRaiden]

New video about Terry Jones, the pastor who "oversaw" the Koran burning, receiving new death threats:

http://news.yahoo.com/video/world-15749633/terry-jones-receives-death-threats-24780307

At least that General Petreaus and the journalist have SOME sense. And for the others in this thread, it doesn't mean fear or being politically correct, it's called intelligence. Terry Jones goes so far as to say that his beliefs are more important, and he backs up his decision to burn the Koran, even at the expense of up to 10 American soldiers. :)

Also, just have a look at his face when he says how many death threats he's gotten. It's like he's about to crap in his pants. Yeah sure, he says he's not afraid to die, but he's got full protection and as they said, the police has spent thousands of dollars for their protection. It's because of these chicken $hit morons, armed "pastors" that more innocent people will suffer, while they're safe and secure. How unfair is this?

[ArrowsFA1]

As Tony said, the Bible is a closed end book where the supposed extremes of the Old Testament no longer apply; the Koran is open ended in which the extremes apply today and forever until their supposed second coming happens; therefore their entire religion is to be condemned because their precious books condones and encourages what you call extremists are doing.
IMHO the Bible is open to interpretation as much as the Koran or any other book. The particular interpretation chosen depends on the reader not the contents and actions resulting from that interpretation are theirs alone. You appear to want to impose your own interpretation as much as the extremists referred to do.

[Bob Riebe]

IMHO the Bible is open to interpretation as much as the Koran or any other book. The particular interpretation chosen depends on the reader not the contents and actions resulting from that interpretation are theirs alone. You appear to want to impose your own interpretation as much as the extremists referred to do.

You are simply wrong, although the "interpretation" bit is a main reason there are over a thousand different "christian" dogmas.
Get down to the interpretation bit with a Calvinist and you can be down to diagramming sentences and they will still be adamant in their dogma, correct grammar be damned.

I copies some verses from the Koran on another thread and I am not going to redo it, but the verses state at face value what they mean. Interpretation has squat to do with the Koran.

When representative for the Muslim religion was questioned about these on a news/talk show last week he stammered around andfinally said that some people have these, for lack of a verbatim word, chapters in their Korans.
He did not say they were wrong, he said - some - have that in their Koran.
It was interesting to watch his search for the correct phrase to use.
I thought there was only THE holy Koran. Can not be very holy if they can simply at convenience ignore or chop parts out. That is what the Jehovah Witnesses did to the Bible to float their religion.

[Bob Riebe]

Also, just have a look at his face when he says how many death threats he's gotten. It's like he's about to crap in his pants.
No he does not and for you to say so is stupid.

That is a bigoted biased piece of biased journalistic crap, it makes the supposedly tarnished Daily News look like journalistic excellence.

[CaptainRaiden]

No he does not and for you to say so is stupid.

That is a bigoted biased piece of biased journalistic crap, it makes the supposedly tarnished Daily News look like journalistic excellence.

I'm exercising my right to freedom of speech, and that guy is scared $h!tless out of his brains. If he wasn't scared, he wouldn't be carrying a firearm, and he would have burned that Koran in a Muslim country, not USA. He is okay with sacrificing lives of American soldiers because of his beliefs, yet is hiding behind security from the police and FBI, which by the way he's not refusing, also him and his "associate" are carrying firearms.

AND you presumably support this man and his actions. Sometimes this forum desperately needs an applause smiley.

[Bob Riebe]

I'm exercising my right to freedom of speech, and that guy is scared $h!tless out of his brains. If he wasn't scared, he wouldn't be carrying a firearm, and he would have burned that Koran in a Muslim country, not USA. He is okay with sacrificing lives of American soldiers because of his beliefs, yet is hiding behind security from the police and FBI, which by the way he's not refusing, also him and his "associate" are carrying firearms.

AND you presumably support this man and his actions. Sometimes this forum desperately needs an applause smiley.
What he did happened weeks ago, it seems some one else supported his actions, or wanted people to die.
I did not put it on the internet.
-------------------------
There is at least one dead person in Europe killed by a Muslim who probably should have armed himself, he was killed by religion of peace.

[CaptainRaiden]

There is at least one dead person in Europe killed by a Muslim who probably should have armed himself, he was killed by religion of peace.

Yep, us "holier" people should carry Glock 17s with us 24/7 just in case a Muslim tries to jump on us from the bushes. Let's burn their holy book this weekend to force them to change their religion! ;)

[CNR]

http://www.twf.org/Library/Violence.html

We read in the Qur'an: ". . . Do not take life, which Allah has made sacred, except through justice and the law. He orders this so that you may acquire wisdom" (6:151) and, "Do not take life, which Allah has made sacred, except for a just cause. If anyone is killed unjustly, We allow his heir (to seek justice) but do not allow him to exceed bounds when it comes to taking life, for he is helped (by the law)" (17:33). According to the Qur'an, killing a person unjustly is the same as killing all of humanity, and saving a person is the same as saving all humanity. (See 5:32.)

[Bob Riebe]

http://www.twf.org/Library/Violence.html
Qur'an (5:51) - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
-------------------
009.030
SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

[airshifter]

Sad to see that we have some "talibans" even on this forum. What is really surprising is that they aren't on muslim's side........

Horrible things like those that happened could be avoided if we learnt to respect not only each other's faith but also each other's feelings. We can do this only if we admit we're different but not better/worse than the others. But for this we should really try to know and understand the "opposite" side. At this moment none of the two camps are ready for this but unfortunately each is ready to judge.

One of you said that due to news values we get to see muslims burning the flags not muslims living an ordinary life. And I add that due to the same point of view they see a mad man burning a holy book but not the aspects of an ordinary western family. I wonder if it's really fair to appreciate people by watching some news on TV.... Maybe it's time to read some books or watch documentaries about other cultures and civilizations.

At the end of the day, due to different backgrounds, we can't change our mentalities but at least we can try to understand the others and live in peace.

People often fear what they don't understand, and the reality is that many of them are willing to live in complete ignorance of the facts. And since many of them focus on Constitutional rights, it seems only fair to say that many that see through such ignorance view them as bigots, intolerant of anything they don't believe.

[airshifter]

http://www.twf.org/Library/Violence.html

Don't go quoting any reasonable stuff from the Quran! You have a few people trying really hard to convince us it's all about killing anyone not Muslim, and if they start seeing facts such as this posted they might have trouble being small minded scared people!

[555-04Q2]

I don't get all the fuss.....it's just a book made from paper and ink.

[Bob Riebe]

In a Muslim country that statement can get you killed.

[555-04Q2]

Lucky for me I am not in a Muslim country ;)

Its just a book for feck sakes. If I burn your underwear, its not like I'm burning your man parts!

People and religion are pathetic. This is why I am an atheist.

[gadjo_dilo]

Qur'an (5:51) - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
-------------------


Now I reckon I have some trouble in understanding English but I can't see any sign of violence in this quatation.
I know a lot of people but only a few of them are my friends. It doesn't mean that I'm going to beat or kill the ones I don't trust or I don't like.

Let's not forget that this book has its origins in the 7th century when I'm sure that either christians or jews haven't exactly friendly feelings toward other religions.

But nice to see you're reading the Koran....
Is that the only text you remember?

[gadjo_dilo]

I don't get all the fuss.....it's just a book made from paper and ink.
........
Its just a book for feck sakes. If I burn your underwear, its not like I'm burning your man parts!
People and religion are pathetic. This is why I am an atheist


No wonder you're an atheist if you see a book only from the material point of view, like a piece of paper and ink. If you bother to read them you'll see that there are books and books. And I don't mean that some of them have more coloured covers or glossy pages but their content is different. And I'll tell you a secret: some of them may mark your existance.

[bluegem280]

Lucky for me I am not in a Muslim country ;)

Its just a book for feck sakes. If I burn your underwear, its not like I'm burning your man parts!

People and religion are pathetic. This is why I am an atheist.

No way comparable, no one is interested in your underwear or your manhood ;)

The problem is not material something is made of, but the motivation behind why would they need to do it, just like people who are disrespectful of and have negative sentiment on something and burn your flag you will get offended, if you are a good citizen with good nationalism on your country. :)

No problem with being Muslim, Muslim believe will have good life in heaven. :)

[Eki]

Lucky for me I am not in a Muslim country ;)

Its just a book for feck sakes. If I burn your underwear, its not like I'm burning your man parts!

People and religion are pathetic. This is why I am an atheist.
If someone burned your car, would you be angry? If yes, why, it's just metal, plastic and rubber?

[ArrowsFA1]

You are simply wrong, although the "interpretation" bit is a main reason there are over a thousand different "christian" dogmas.
Bob, you yourself acknowledge that the bible is open to interpretation and yet I am somehow wrong to hold the view that the Bible is open to interpretation :crazy:

You're free to hold the beliefs that you do. Don't deny the right of others to have different beliefs. To do so simply widens divisions. Your God isn't a divisive God is he?

[Shifter]

Thanks to those bast... pastors 13 people are dead now (8 UN workers and 5 protesters). They must be proud of themselves.

Who are the real bast? Those who burn paper with supernatural idoiocy printed on it, or those who ruthlessly murder innocent people? Not condoning incitement, but lets be honest, one party has FIGURATIVE blood on their hands, but only because the other party has ACTUAL blood on their hands. No religious extremists, no blood.

Certain rock music artists have burned the bible as part of their act, but nobody killed anyone in response...

[Eki]

Who are the real bast? Those who burn paper with supernatural idoiocy printed on it, or those who ruthlessly murder innocent people? .
Both, but the pastors started it. Unless they are total idiots (which is a possibility) they knew what was likely going to happen and did it anyway.

[ShiftingGears]

If someone burned your car, would you be angry? If yes, why, it's just metal, plastic and rubber?

If a rational person was angry, would they go and kill twenty innocent people who had nothing to do with it?

That is ignoring the fact that the pastor burnt his own possession, not someone elses.


The pastor did a stupid thing. What did he think was going to happen? Those who perpetrated the crimes are moreso disgusting.

[Eki]

That is ignoring the fact that the pastor burnt his own possession, not someone elses.

Islam is not the pastor's possession. He's not even a Muslim.

[Bob Riebe]

Bob, you yourself acknowledge that the bible is open to interpretation and yet I am somehow wrong to hold the view that the Bible is open to interpretation :crazy:

You're free to hold the beliefs that you do. Don't deny the right of others to have different beliefs. To do so simply widens divisions. Your God isn't a divisive God is he?
It is not open to interpretation; people simply take the liberty to interpret as they please to serve their own personal dogmas.
What they do is a sin, but God lets each serve his own folly. In the end each will get their just rewards.
Many supposed "christians" are toast.

There is only one truth, without exception. That is a fact the Bible state quite clearly.

How am I, denying anyone their right to choose as they wish? As long as their choices do not screw up my life, let the bulls run.
No one can serve two masters.

[Bob Riebe]

Islam is not the pastor's possession. He's not even a Muslim.
I can throw ten Bibles in a bon-fire tomorrow. I have not thrown the Christian Faith in a fire, merely some books.
They can be replaced.

[Bob Riebe]

Both, but the pastors started it. Unless they are total idiots (which is a possibility) they knew what was likely going to happen and did it anyway.
Some U.S. Muslim preachers came out yesterday and condemned the kill, but always with qualifiers. I am sure, so as to not pee-off other Muslims and become heretics..

[555-04Q2]

No wonder you're an atheist if you see a book only from the material point of view, like a piece of paper and ink. If you bother to read them you'll see that there are books and books. And I don't mean that some of them have more coloured covers or glossy pages but their content is different. And I'll tell you a secret: some of them may mark your existance.

All religions are man made and are regional. Christians come out of Europe, Muslims from the Middle East, Hindus from East Asia, Bhudists from China etc etc. The books they use are also made by the hand of a man. They are just books, even the ones with pictures that you can read. Until I see one of these "gods" with my own eyes, I'm a realist.

[555-04Q2]

If someone burned your car, would you be angry? If yes, why, it's just metal, plastic and rubber?

All my cars are insured.

[555-04Q2]

I can throw ten Bibles in a bon-fire tomorrow. I have not thrown the Christian Faith in a fire, merely some books.
They can be replaced.

Some people here will battle to understand this concept :p :

[CaptainRaiden]

Some people here will battle to understand this concept :p :

I think some other people here are missing the point completely by a landslide. The point is not that the book is only paper and ink, it's about what it means for that particular religious group. Bob Reibe can throw 10 Bibles in a bon-fire, but that's his own religion's book. Can he do the same with 10 Korans in public in Afghanistan? I doubt it. Does he have the testicular fortitude to do it? Not in a million years.

I am an atheist, and you say so are you. But 99% of the world doesn't think like us. I don't care if you make a Bible and Koran barbecue, but stop to think for one second what would that mean for people who actually do care about that book, for whom it's holy?

One of the first things to do as an atheist is to live and let live, be tolerant, mind your own business, and not ridicule or berate somebody else's faith. If you still do that, then you're no different than any other religious fanatic.

[markabilly]

Again the question is not whether one thinks burning the Koran or the Bible or any other book is a good idea or bad in their opinion. It is his right to do so, like it or not. A fundemental right under the constitution.

The fact that savages can not deal with it, and that their barbaric actions can be easily justified under the Koran, matters not.

Similarly freedom of religion as well as separation of religion are also fundemental to the constitution. Thank goodness for all

[CaptainRaiden]

Again the question is not whether one thinks burning the Koran or the Bible or any other book is a good idea or bad in their opinion. It is his right to do so, like it or not. A fundemental right under the constitution.

The fact that savages can not deal with it, and that their barbaric actions can be easily justified under the Koran, matters not.

Similarly freedom of religion as well as separation of religion are also fundemental to the constitution. Thank goodness for all

Again, why doesn't Terry Jones go and exercise his fundamental right in Afghanistan? Why does he do it in the security of his country, while carrying firearms and hiding behind thousands of dollars of security? All the while saying he's not afraid to die. :laugh:

Why should innocent UN workers or American soldiers or ANYBODY else suffer at the hands of savages because of what this pastor did? If he really wants to condemn a religion, send a message, stand by his beliefs, have the balls to do it in a Muslim country and then pay the consequences, not hiding behind walls in a Christian country. Many people in history have laid down their life for what they believed in, to stop innocent people getting killed. Why is this jackass doing things the opposite way?

[CaptainRaiden]

What's even more amazing is that he doesn't mind the deaths of up to 10 American soldiers for his beliefs!! :eek: This is the value of a human life in his eyes? And he's supposed to be a man of God? :rolleyes:

I wonder if he interpreted the Bible to say that burning another religion's holy book is A okay. "Thou shalt burn a Koran every Friday after breakfast." ;)

[gadjo_dilo]

I can throw ten Bibles in a bon-fire tomorrow. I have not thrown the Christian Faith in a fire, merely some books.
They can be replaced
I see....
Following this reasoning if someone on this forum will say a terrible swearing about my mother I have no reason to be offended because my mum is miles away from any of you and the "physical" act can't really happen. There will be only some dirty words written on a screen. At the end of the day who cares that I have feelings and my mum is sacred for me?


The books they use are also made by the hand of a man. They are just books, even the ones with pictures that you can read. Until I see one of these "gods" with my own eyes, I'm a realist.
I'm not talking only about religious books ( must confess I haven't read one ) . Things that you can't see with your own eyes may still exist. Wonder if you have ever seen a soul. :laugh:

[gadjo_dilo]

Again the question is not whether one thinks burning the Koran or the Bible or any other book is a good idea or bad in their opinion. It is his right to do so, like it or not. A fundemental right under the constitution.

The fact that savages can not deal with it, and that their barbaric actions can be easily justified under the Koran, matters not.

Similarly freedom of religion as well as separation of religion are also fundemental to the constitution. Thank goodness for all

Of course, hiding under constitution's umbrella we have the right to do or say many things. However if we think twice before acting we understand that we may hurt people around us.
Now imagine that I'm disgracefully fat. You have the constitutional right to call me a whale but I might be very sensitive about my weight and punch you in your nose. Of course justice will be on your side, you said the truth and I was violent but was it fair to call me so?

If we pretend to be rational then why don't we have the diplomacy to avoid conflictual acts even if they are permitted by fundamental laws?

[chuck34]

Both, but the pastors started it.

Really? I thought it was the guys that flew some planes into some buildings killing thousands, in the name of Allah. What about the guys that beheaded a journalist, in the name of Allah. Or perhaps it was the guys that drove a bomb laden boat into the side of a US ship, in the name of Allah. Or maybe it was the guys that blew up the US embassies in Africa, in the name of Allah. How about the guys that bombed the World Trade Center in '93, in the name of Allah. Maybe the bombing, in the name of Allah, of the barricks in Beruit started it. Moral equivalencies are never a good argument, but for you to somehow say that these pastors expressing their opinions in a completely non-violent (yet stupid) way somehow excuses the killings because "they knew what was likely going to happen and did it anyway". Well that just makes me sick. That's stooping to a new low, even for you Eki.

Are you seriously suggesting that we stop doing things because it somehow might offend someone else? Where does that stop? A woman gets raped because women in the US don't wear hijabs, should we force our women to wear them? A woman gets stoned to death because she was out after dark without a male family member, should women in the US be forced to be accompanied at all times? A reporter gets beheaded because he's from the US which doesn't observe Sharia law, should we all be forced to convert? Where does it stop? Why do we give in to demands from murderers and thugs? Why are murderers and thugs dictating our freedom of speach here?



And now here come Eki back again with some BS argument about how "evil" the US is because we support Israel, and if we would just let them be eaten up by their Arab neighbors then all would be peace and light in the world. It's old, I'm tired of it. There is no moral equivalency to be had here. Violence and murder are never the answer to peaceful expressions of protest.

[Eki]

Really? I thought it was the guys that flew some planes into some buildings killing thousands, in the name of Allah.
You got it all wrong. Those guys did what they did because of the Muslims Americans killed or helped to kill in Lebanon and Iraq, and because of the American presence in the Middle East.

[markabilly]

Again, why doesn't Terry Jones go and exercise his fundamental right in Afghanistan? Why does he do it in the security of his country, while carrying firearms and hiding behind thousands of dollars of security? All the while saying he's not afraid to die. :laugh:

Why should innocent UN workers or American soldiers or ANYBODY else suffer at the hands of savages because of what this pastor did? If he really wants to condemn a religion, send a message, stand by his beliefs, have the balls to do it in a Muslim country and then pay the consequences, not hiding behind walls in a Christian country. Many people in history have laid down their life for what they believed in, to stop innocent people getting killed. Why is this jackass doing things the opposite way?

Because he lives here, and not in some worthless country populated by savages who worship a pedophile prophet under the guise of an ignorant religion.

You and the others around here still do not get it. These people died because of this ignorant religion as practiced by savages.

chilly out today.

simple

[chuck34]

You got it all wrong. Those guys did what they did because of the Muslims Americans killed or helped to kill in Lebanon and Iraq, and because of the American presence in the Middle East.

Wow are you predictible or what? Try a new record, this one keeps skipping.


And now here come Eki back again with some BS argument about how "evil" the US is because we support Israel, and if we would just let them be eaten up by their Arab neighbors then all would be peace and light in the world

[gadjo_dilo]

Because he lives here, and not in some worthless country populated by savages who worship a pedophile prophet under the guise of an ignorant religion.

You and the others around here still do not get it. These people died because of this ignorant religion as practiced by savages.

chilly out today.

simple

1. In general, not in this peculiar case: What makes a country "worthless"? And what should the natives of a worthless country do?

2. What are you ( the man who pretend to be realist ) doing when you meet a "savage" ( forget muslims, let's say you lost yourself in the amazonian jungle)? Provoke him risking a fight or trying to avoid any embarassing situation?

[BDunnell]

1. In general, not in this peculiar case: What makes a country "worthless"? And what should the natives of a worthless country do?

:up: to that in particular.

[Eki]

Wow are you predictible or what? Try a new record, this one keeps skipping.
Predictable or not, I can't change the truth. Laws of nature are predictable too, and they don't change just to surprise you and keep you entertained.

[markabilly]

1. In general, not in this peculiar case: What makes a country "worthless"? And what should the natives of a worthless country do?

2. What are you ( the man who pretend to be realist ) doing when you meet a "savage" ( forget muslims, let's say you lost yourself in the amazonian jungle)? Provoke him risking a fight or trying to avoid any embarassing situation?

1. Worthless is those middle eastern countries, where too many good American men and women are dying for ingrates. The savages should not be acting like ignorant savages.

2. When meeting some savage in the jungle, the goal was to shoot them dead before they did the same to you.

[chuck34]

Predictable or not, I can't change the truth. Laws of nature are predictable too, and they don't change just to surprise you and keep you entertained.

Ah yes, the truth according to Eki. Where the US can do no right and the Palistinians can do no wrong. I guess in this case you have actually changed things up a bit, now it's all Muslims can do no wrong. What fun!

[555-04Q2]

I think some other people here are missing the point completely by a landslide. The point is not that the book is only paper and ink, it's about what it means for that particular religious group. Bob Reibe can throw 10 Bibles in a bon-fire, but that's his own religion's book. Can he do the same with 10 Korans in public in Afghanistan? I doubt it. Does he have the testicular fortitude to do it? Not in a million years.

I am an atheist, and you say so are you. But 99% of the world doesn't think like us. I don't care if you make a Bible and Koran barbecue, but stop to think for one second what would that mean for people who actually do care about that book, for whom it's holy?

One of the first things to do as an atheist is to live and let live, be tolerant, mind your own business, and not ridicule or berate somebody else's faith. If you still do that, then you're no different than any other religious fanatic.

I used to be a Christian when I was younger, but once I grew into a man I realised that all religions are just man made fantasy stories and regional ones too. I am tolerant of all races and religions, just don't throw them on me if I say I'm not interested.

[CaptainRaiden]

I used to be a Christian when I was younger, but once I grew into a man I realised that all religions are just man made fantasy stories and regional ones too.

Yes, that is what every Atheist believes, including me. Doesn't mean the rest of the population thinks so too, hence the point of being tolerant about their beliefs.


I am tolerant of all races and religions, just don't throw them on me if I say I'm not interested.

Well, nobody threw any religion on you. But is it okay for that pastor to burn ANOTHER religion's book? Think about it this way, your best friend has a book that holds great significance to him, probably it belongs to his father who passed away. No matter how wrong it is, the guy obviously has an emotional connection with it. It's only paper and ink. Would you go ahead and burn it? Now, think of a highly religious group the same way. Nothing good can come of burning their book, which they consider holy, especially something which holds great significance to them.

[CaptainRaiden]

Because he lives here, and not in some worthless country populated by savages who worship a pedophile prophet under the guise of an ignorant religion.

You and the others around here still do not get it. These people died because of this ignorant religion as practiced by savages.

chilly out today.

simple

So, what you're saying is that those UN workers would have been attacked by those extremist savages on that particular day regardless of whether this pastor burned their holy book or not? Is that what you're saying?

[Captain VXR]

Its an open and shut case of religious extremists provoking other religious extremists into violence

[CaptainRaiden]

Its an open and shut case of religious extremists provoking other religious extremists into violence

Nail - Hit - Head.

[Bob Riebe]

I think some other people here are missing the point completely by a landslide. The point is not that the book is only paper and ink, it's about what it means for that particular religious group. Bob Reibe can throw 10 Bibles in a bon-fire, but that's his own religion's book. Can he do the same with 10 Korans in public in Afghanistan? I doubt it. Does he have the testicular fortitude to do it? Not in a million years.

I will throw a Koran in a fire the same day you run across a one hundred yard long unmarked minefield.

Yours will take more intestinal fortitude as I can defend my position with firearms, your life is in the Phates hand.
That would make you either very brave or incredibly stupid.

[Bob Riebe]

Again, why doesn't Terry Jones go and exercise his fundamental right in Afghanistan? Why does he do it in the security of his country, while carrying firearms and hiding behind thousands of dollars of security? All the while saying he's not afraid to die. :laugh:

Why should innocent UN workers or American soldiers or ANYBODY else suffer at the hands of savages because of what this pastor did? If he really wants to condemn a religion, send a message, stand by his beliefs, have the balls to do it in a Muslim country and then pay the consequences, not hiding behind walls in a Christian country. Many people in history have laid down their life for what they believed in, to stop innocent people getting killed. Why is this jackass doing things the opposite way?
Why don't the savage cowards come here and try to kill him, face-to-face?

[Bob Riebe]

I see....
Following this reasoning if someone on this forum will say a terrible swearing about my mother I have no reason to be offended because my mum is miles away from any of you and the "physical" act can't really happen. There will be only some dirty words written on a screen. At the end of the day who cares that I have feelings and my mum is sacred for me?


I'm not talking only about religious books ( must confess I haven't read one ) . Things that you can't see with your own eyes may still exist. Wonder if you have ever seen a soul. :laugh:

As my Grand Parents said when I got angry about what some said to me when I was a youth: "Sticks and stones can break your bones, but words can never harm you."

Today's childish adult society cannot deal with that truth.

[Bob Riebe]

You got it all wrong. Those guys did what they did because of the Muslims Americans killed or helped to kill in Lebanon and Iraq, and because of the American presence in the Middle East.

No Osama BL said he did it because Reagan ran from Lebanon and Clinton ran from Somalia. The killing had nothing to do with it.

[Eki]

Nope. This is what he said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden


"Allah knows it did not cross our minds to attack the towers but after the situation became unbearable and we witnessed the injustice and tyranny of the American-Israeli alliance against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, I thought about it. And the events that affected me directly were that of 1982 and the events that followed – when America allowed the Israelis to invade Lebanon, helped by the U.S. Sixth Fleet. As I watched the destroyed towers in Lebanon, it occurred to me punish the unjust the same way (and) to destroy towers in America so it could taste some of what we are tasting and to stop killing our children and women."

– Osama bin Laden, 2004

[ArrowsFA1]

Worthless is those middle eastern countries...
The question was "what makes a country worthless"?

As far as the US is concerned the Middle East is far from worthless, as successive US governments have illustrated clearly. If your view of the region is representative then the US could be seen as the worst kind of colonialist nation. Fortunately I don't believe your view, nor that of the Pastor who likes burning books, is representative.