John Surtees

[MrJan]

Why has this man not been given a knighthood? My old man raised the question whilst watching The Killer Years the other day, and I have to say that I agree with him. Jackie Stewart has obviously done a lot for safety, so his services to motorsport can't really be questioned, but how come Stirling gets one and Surtees doesn't? Surtees can pretty much go down in history as being the only man ever to win world championships on two wheels and four, it's a feat that is extremely unlikely to be repeated in the specialised world of motorsport that we watch today, so on what basis is the Queen holding back?

[AndyL]

There was a campaign to get him knighted a few years ago, but he only got upgraded from MBE to OBE.

[Sonic]

Mr Surtees is a true gent and doubtless is honoured to have received his OBE, much as we would all love to see him as Sir John Surtees

[Mintexmemory]

Suspect this year's Queen's Birthday honours will see him appropriately titled. I second Sonic's view, and it was apparent at the 2010 Goodwood revival just how much respect and affection the public have for him and not just as sympathy for the loss of Henry.

[AndyL]

Suspect this year's Queen's Birthday honours will see him appropriately titled. I second Sonic's view, and it was apparent at the 2010 Goodwood revival just how much respect and affection the public have for him and not just as sympathy for the loss of Henry.

I'm not so hopeful... I think they probably feel they already responded to the concerted campaign to get him knighted with the OBE.

[markabilly]

He should be highly honored as much as any other.

as they say, he is the last of his kind, a WDC and a world champion on bikes.

In sports cars as well, where he won the first can Am championship, driving the sports cars that had monster HP engines for their time period.

I think he would have been a second time world champion in 1966 as well. He was doing well with the ferrari, led EVERY RACE he was enterred with the ferrari (he only drove the first two races for Ferrari), until he had a blow up with ferrari at Le Mans about his co-driver( although my guess there were much political issues blowing around beyond who was to drive what). He went to Cooper Maserati, and won the final race of the season, finishing in second place in WDC, despite a number of mechanical failures.

If they had not screwed with him, ferrari might well have won the WCC and WDC that year.....not that stuff like that ever happens at ferrari, ever.

[Daniel]

but how come Stirling gets one and Surtees doesn't? Surtees can pretty much go down in history as being the only man ever to win world championships on two wheels and four, it's a feat that is extremely unlikely to be repeated in the specialised world of motorsport that we watch today, so on what basis is the Queen holding back?

Perhaps Prince Phillip put Stirling forward for the knighthood? http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t767025/

[D-Type]

That is one nasty website isn't it? Some of the sentiments expressed are sickening!

Let's not take this thread up that road.

[markabilly]

Perhaps Prince Phillip put Stirling forward for the knighthood? http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t767025/

Remeber Moss and Surtees talking together with some other folks at Riverside in 1967.

Moss did not have his shirt on.

Only person I saw at the track or pits without his shirt

I asked, "why do you not have on your shirt?"

Moss said, "because I want the birds to notice..."

About that time some birds flew over, and Surtees made some comment about birds ignoring Moss as usual and something crude that I, in my younger years, did not quite understand.

Everyone but Moss laughed.

I asked what was your name, Told it was Moss. So I asked if he drove race cars.....more laughter.....as Mr Moss stomped off


At the time I did not know that birds meant women, and for days, perhaps years, I wondered about the connection with birds with feathers and Moss's chest.

The most interesting thing about Surtees was that he looked less like a race driver than anybody else I saw at Riverside. He looked more like an accountant or schoolteacher. Very trim and very proper, something of an English version of Dan Gurney who I did not think looked like a race driver either. Surtees, McLaren and Gurney seemed to smile frequently while in the pits.

Yes that was real access, in the days of old.....Imagine some snot nosed kid with a relatively very cheap pit pass, having that conversation (and some other conversations like that) with the likes of Hamilton, Vettel or Schumacher on a Friday before the race.

[Don Capps]

I first began following Surtees when he was still racing bikes, even before he moved to the Italian bikes, in fact. We tend to forget just how big bike racing was during the Fifties in Europe, given that this was the primary mode of transportation for most young people, cars not being much of an option until someone was close to thirty.

Given the quite arbitrary, even capricious nature of the Honours system in Britain, this is really not worth worrying about. I am not going to waste time wringing my hands or fretting about it. Surtees is an extraordinary person and most of us recognize that. End of story.

Keep in mind that in the aftermath of the 1958 season, it was Moss who received either the OBE or MBE while neither Hawthorn nor Vandervell got even the equivalent of an MID (Mention in Dispatches) when the New Years Honours list was announced. Personally, this was a big lesson for me as a big Hawthorn fan at the time and probably helped add to my already rapidly developing sense of cynicism about various aspects of public life.

[D28]

I was fortunate to see Big John in his prime, mostly in sports cars, I really admired him as a driver.I agree with Markabilly that Ferrari's best chance at another WDC title in the early 3 litre days, was lost when he let Surtees go. Sadly this was also true for Surtees's chances.
He is one of a few greats to win with 3 different teams, there is no doubt he could drive anything, whatever number of wheels involved. I believe I read once that he admitted to spreading himself a bit thin, in attempting to run his own outfit. By that time, 1970, he had probably run out of competitive options.
I have no understanding of the British honours system, but outside the country,they counts for very little.
John Surtees was, and remains, a class act whatever awards come his way.

[D-Type]

I first began following Surtees when he was still racing bikes, even before he moved to the Italian bikes, in fact. We tend to forget just how big bike racing was during the Fifties in Europe, given that this was the primary mode of transportation for most young people, cars not being much of an option until someone was close to thirty.

Given the quite arbitrary, even capricious nature of the Honours system in Britain, this is really not worth worrying about. I am not going to waste time wringing my hands or fretting about it. Surtees is an extraordinary person and most of us recognize that. End of story.

Keep in mind that in the aftermath of the 1958 season, it was Moss who received either the OBE or MBE while neither Hawthorn nor Vandervell got even the equivalent of an MID (Mention in Dispatches) when the New Years Honours list was announced. Personally, this was a big lesson for me as a big Hawthorn fan at the time and probably helped add to my already rapidly developing sense of cynicism about various aspects of public life.

Well, Hawthorn did get an invite to lunch with the Queen at Buckingham Place but obviously didn't deserve a medal as he was driving a red car.

I think the reason that John Surtees hasn't been knighted relates to the question "What did he do after racing?" A brief search turned up that he had a motorcycle dealership but nothing else. I think he also invested in property. But essentially nothing public since his racing days.

Sir Stirling and Sir Jackie have been ambassadors for the sport (aka pundits). Sir Frank was a very successful team owner while Sir Jackie was a somewhat successful one. Sir Malcolm and Sir Henry lived in a different age where the World Land Speed Record.
was a major achievement. Since then we have been to the moon ...

I agree that Tony Vandervall deserved some recognition maybe an MBE or OBE rather than a knighthood.

D28,
I don't know which country you are from. Many countries have a formal honours system - you do something meritorious so you get honoured for it. Certainly, France and Italy have formal systems. eg Mario Andretti and Michael Schumacher are both "Commendatores"

[D28]

D28,
I don't know which country you are from. Many countries have a formal honours system - you do something meritorious so you get honoured for it. Certainly, France and Italy have formal systems. eg Mario Andretti and Michael Schumacher are both "Commendatores"

Mine does too, more like the OBE which Surtees has. What I really meant to emphasise was that his place in motorsport is secure whether he receives additional honours or not. On the face of it he deserves it, but as I said I have no idea how the palace decides on its knighthoods.

[Malbec]

What I really meant to emphasise was that his place in motorsport is secure whether he receives additional honours or not.

Absolutely. He's one of my favourite drivers having won on two wheels and four. He's also shown himself to be a true all-rounder and superbly capable outside the cockpit, improving Honda by personally getting Lola involved on their chassis development when they were in trouble and later going on to start his own team. He makes a mockery of comments like "I brought half a second a lap" that some modern drivers have been known to utter.

I don't think we'll ever see a guy that capable again, especially since drivers these days get little education (both academic and real life) outside their driving careers any more. I've chatted to him once or twice at Goodwood and he's still sharp and demonstrates that keen intellect in his insightful comments despite his age. He certainly didn't deserve the loss of his son but his dignity afterwards also spoke volumes about his character.

For me a knighthood would be nice but it wouldn't change my opinion of him at all if he didn't get it.

[BDunnell]

It must be said, though, that there are those — Alan Jones being one — who look on their time in the Surtees team with less than fond memories.

[Malbec]

It must be said, though, that there are those — Alan Jones being one — who look on their time in the Surtees team with less than fond memories.

I'm curious, do you have any more details?

[Don Capps]

In the United States, we have the much-abused "Presidential Medal of Freedom," there often being recipients whose deeds justifying such an award being puzzling at best -- the number of recipients in the entertainment industry is mind-boggling, or nonexistent at worst -- especially in the case of the political hacks who seem to always make up a part of each list, both political parties being quite guilty of this sort of nonsense. Hence, I have more than a bit of a cynical attitude regarding the award.

Truth in advertsing advisory: My "Aunt Katherine" recieved the award in 1982, but that was in large part due to the president at the time being a show biz person -- along with her having just survived a stroke that should have proved fatal and, sadly, left her literally speechless for the rest of her life.

[Don Capps]

I'm curious, do you have any more details?

It is a very long story which I am sure will be compressed somewhat...

[BDunnell]

I'm curious, do you have any more details?

In (very) short, for one thing, Jones and also Tim Schenken have both been extremely critical in interviews about how they would be called up to test for Surtees, then wait for hours on end while Surtees himself drove before getting a chance in the car, leaving no time to set it up to their liking. Schenken said in MotorSport that he finds it impossible to talk about Surtees 'without inviting a shoal of solicitors' letters', and described the man himself as 'absolutely impossible'; Jones remarked that the two most difficult team bosses he ever had were ex-World Champions, namely Surtees and Graham Hill, and recounted how Surtees once claimed that his chassis was 'too good' in that it was getting too much heat into the tyres, to which Jones says he retorted, 'Well, John, why don't you go and **** it up a little?' The view of both drivers was that Surtees would think it best if he did everything — all the set-up, all the testing — but that the team made little progress as a result. And, of course, Surtees F1 was perennially under-funded. The sums brought in by its sponsorship deals were peanuts compared with those of the larger teams.

[Malbec]

In (very) short, for one thing, Jones and also Tim Schenken have both been extremely critical in interviews about how they would be called up to test for Surtees, then wait for hours on end while Surtees himself drove before getting a chance in the car, leaving no time to set it up to their liking. Schenken said in MotorSport that he finds it impossible to talk about Surtees 'without inviting a shoal of solicitors' letters', and described the man himself as 'absolutely impossible'; Jones remarked that the two most difficult team bosses he ever had were ex-World Champions, namely Surtees and Graham Hill, and recounted how Surtees once claimed that his chassis was 'too good' in that it was getting too much heat into the tyres, to which Jones says he retorted, 'Well, John, why don't you go and **** it up a little?' The view of both drivers was that Surtees would think it best if he did everything — all the set-up, all the testing — but that the team made little progress as a result. And, of course, Surtees F1 was perennially under-funded. The sums brought in by its sponsorship deals were peanuts compared with those of the larger teams.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that side of him.

[BDunnell]

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that side of him.

Let it be said, though, that none of this detracts from what an outstanding rider and driver he was, and the wider contribution he made to the motorsport efforts of both Ferrari and Honda. Surtees himself has described how he tried to set up what he called a 'Schumacher movement' at Ferrari, but that not all in the team were receptive to his efforts at broadening its horizons. And as far as Surtees F1 is concerned, one wonders how different things might have been had Mike Hailwood managed to win a Grand Prix for the team, as he came close to doing.

[Steve Boyd]

Why has this man not been given a knighthood? My old man raised the question whilst watching The Killer Years the other day, and I have to say that I agree with him. Jackie Stewart has obviously done a lot for safety, so his services to motorsport can't really be questioned, but how come Stirling gets one and Surtees doesn't? Surtees can pretty much go down in history as being the only man ever to win world championships on two wheels and four, it's a feat that is extremely unlikely to be repeated in the specialised world of motorsport that we watch today, so on what basis is the Queen holding back?
The Queen only acts on the advice of her Government in these matters so honours tend to be awarded on the basis of not offending people who voted for the party in power & currying favour with those who didn't but might in future. How else do you explain Bob Paisley getting an OBE while Alex Furguson has a CBE & a knighthood.

[MrJan]

For me a knighthood would be nice but it wouldn't change my opinion of him at all if he didn't get it.

I think that's the case for most motorsport fans. Whether he's got it or he hasn't then he'll still be a hero, the knighthood would just bring a wider public recognition that he perhaps deserves. Despite being the only man to win on 2 wheels and 4 he's probably a relatively unknown.

Not too surprised to find out that he was controlling and had a few people that don't like him, few of the greats manage to be universally loved. Off the top of my head Jim Clark seems to be one but can't think of many others.

[ShiftingGears]

Surtees once claimed that his chassis was 'too good' in that it was getting too much heat into the tyres, to which Jones says he retorted, 'Well, John, why don't you go and **** it up a little?'

:laugh: :laugh:

[markabilly]

I think that's the case for most motorsport fans. Whether he's got it or he hasn't then he'll still be a hero, the knighthood would just bring a wider public recognition that he perhaps deserves. Despite being the only man to win on 2 wheels and 4 he's probably a relatively unknown.

Not too surprised to find out that he was controlling and had a few people that don't like him, few of the greats manage to be universally loved. Off the top of my head Jim Clark seems to be one but can't think of many others.

Clark had a reputation for not fussing too much about the car; he just won in whatever he was given. Most drivers were not like that, and most drivers made known their competiveness to others.. At riverside, in my very younger years, I had actually had no clue about who or what was Moss, yet clearly there seemed to be a bit of "mine bigger than yours" between surtees and moss