Whiney crybaby of the race?

[Daniel]

Button. Someone call that man a waaaaaaambulance. You tried to cheat and you got a penalty.

[DexDexter]

Stupid thread.

[Daniel]

Don't read it then?

[N4D13]

Saying that Button tried to cheat seems too hard for me. He was optimistic on his move on Massa, and the Brazilian defended his position in a tough manner, which meant that Jenson had to go off the track in order to avoid crashing into him.

It was a mistake from him not to give the places back, but we would need to know whether this was Jenson or McLaren's call. It would have been great to hear McLaren's radio communications with Jenson. If they didn't tell him to let Massa (and, consequently, Alonso) by, it's their fault alone.

[Robinho]

i do think he probably deserved the penalty, but i didn't see anything wrong with what he said. He was quicker, Massa did make it difficult and was holding them both up. He said Massa was doing a good job. for a moment entering the offending left hander he had a slight overlap on Massa, which was then reversed by the right hander. he had also go a nose ahead but on the outside a couple of other places also but didn't make it stick.

He should have given the place back, but it was pretty tight and Ferrari made it practically impossible a couple of corners later when Alonso "got" past and they pitted Massa. he probably could have passed Massa somewhere else eventually (as he did later). didn't hear anything particularly whiney in the interview though. In fact your post comes across whinier in tone tbh

[Daniel]

Deep down they knew they had to give the place back. Whether they were stupid or optimistic it amounts to the same thing

[Robinho]

Mclaren told him to hold until they'd heard back from the stewards. They didn't hear anything and then Ferrari pitted and they got the drive through.

[Daniel]

Mclaren told him to hold until they'd heard back from the stewards. They didn't hear anything and then Ferrari pitted and they got the drive through.

Which is a dumb thing to do. Let me tell you a story. At Rally Australia one year I had a media pass and was speeding back to the service park to get there before the cars arrived so I could get photos and I passed a police car going to other way just over a crest whilst I was doing a rather a bit over the speed limit. I didn't wait to see him coming back behind me, I stopped and I pulled over and waited for him to catch up. End result was that he respected that I didn't try to get away and I made thing easier for both of us. I got sent on my way with the warning that if I got caught again that weekend I'd be "taking pictures of trees rather than rally cars" and didn't get a fine or points. Sometimes you just have to realise when you've been caught or that being caught is inevitable and pre-empt the punishment and make it easier on yourself.

If Jenson had simply let Massa and probably Alonso by then he'd have had a far better race and that's a fact.

[Dave B]

I don't think Jenson cheated but I agree he must have realised he should've let Massa pass. Instead he allowed Ferrari to use clever team orders and get Alonso ahead.

It must be so demoralising for Massa to get the phone call this early in the season but to be fair he was slower than Alonso all weekend.

[Robinho]

agree they should have had the confidence in there own thoughts and Jenson should have given the place back straight away. that was their mistake, but i agree with Dave and others, the pass wasn't that bad, he was alongside at worst and i also don't think it was a deliberate cheat.

should have given it back and got him again next time round

[truefan72]

how is it trying to cheat when you get run off the track?

The mistake was not immediately giving back the position and living to fight another day in a faster and better car
I assume based on your reasoning then Ferrari also tried to cheat by deliberately pitting Massa to force a drive through, as well as Massa slowing down to let Alonso through to double down on that cheating right?

look Ferrari were clever and I would have hoped that Mclaren would have had the same intelligence to quickly realized what was going on and let those Ferrari's go. It is not as if they did not have a prior incident with similar circumstances to know what the eventual outcome would be if they kept button in front.

[Daniel]

I don't think Jenson cheated but I agree he must have realised he should've let Massa pass. Instead he allowed Ferrari to use clever team orders and get Alonso ahead.

It must be so demoralising for Massa to get the phone call this early in the season but to be fair he was slower than Alonso all weekend.

The use of the term "cheating" is I guess slightly generous on my part. But if you were Massa and Button got in front of you that way then I'm not sure you could call it anything else.

This isn't really sneaky against the spirit of the rules cheating of course, it was daft cheating which was so obvious that it was always going to get penalised. This sort of facepalm stuff surprises me with McLaren, it happened with Lewis in Australia when he let Trulli through and then the team claimed that Trulli had passed Lewis. If McLaren were just honest about these silly things then they'd be so much better off.

[Daniel]

how is it trying to cheat when you get run off the track?

The mistake was not immediately giving back the position and living to fight another day in a faster and better car
I assume based on your reasoning then Ferrari also tried to cheat by deliberately pitting Massa to force a drive through, as well as Massa slowing down to let Alonso through to double down on that cheating right?

look Ferrari were clever and I would have hoped that Mclaren would have had the same intelligence to quickly realized what was going on and let those Ferrari's go. It is not as if they did not have a prior incident with similar circumstances to know what the eventual outcome would be if they kept button in front.

The "cheat" wasn't for Jenson to go off the track to overtake, it was when he didn't give the place back. As you mention there are echoes of Spa and IMHO the overtake was a bit "cheatier" ( :p ) than Lewis' as at least Lewis let Kimi back past before he overtook him again.

[truefan72]

Which is a dumb thing to do.

If Jenson had simply let Massa and probably Alonso by then he'd have had a far better race and that's a fact.

which still doesn't amount to cheating, does it?
Oh, and when a Mclaren gives the position back, they still find a way to penalize them...just sayin'

[AndyL]

Martin Whitmarsh just took a leaf out of Arsene Wenger's book, apparently he didn't see the incident :rolleyes:

[Daniel]

which still doesn't amount to cheating, does it?
Oh, and when a Mclaren gives the position back, they still find a way to penalize them...just sayin'

Like I said, look at it from Massa's position.

Lets say you and I are racing with you ahead and me behind and we're going into a corner where only 1 car will fit through and I'm a tiny bit ahead not having completed a successful overtake and take the escape road and get in front of you. If I'd kept on going for the corner I'd have never made it and I would have had to let you go through. Now of course no one expects me to crash into you rather than take the escape road, but it was what he did after that which turned it from an overtaking manouever which I had to get out of, to an overtaking manouever where I didn't properly pass you on the track, but where I took a shortcut and did it that way.

[Daniel]

Martin Whitmarsh just took a leaf out of Arsene Wenger's book, apparently he didn't see the incident :rolleyes:

Then why the **** is he there? Should he not be watching the race or at least seeing replays of incidents like this? :dozey:

[Rollo]

The use of the term "cheating" is I guess slightly generous on my part. But if you were Massa and Button got in front of you that way then I'm not sure you could call it anything else.

If I was Ferrari I would have told Massa to let sixteen cars past him. At the expense of a poor points paying position, you could conceivably keep your opponents also out of a points paying position. Could you prove team orders if not just a Ferrari, but a couple of Saubers, Toro-Rossos, Force Indias, Williams, Virgin and Lotii went past as well.
At the expense of one point today, you could have cost McLaren 8 points. From Ferrari's point of view, that would have been well worth it.

[truefan72]

Then why the **** is he there? Should he not be watching the race or at least seeing replays of incidents like this? :dozey:

fair point

[AndyL]

Then why the **** is he there? Should he not be watching the race or at least seeing replays of incidents like this? :dozey:

I'm sure you know what he really meant!

[Rollo]

I think I'd be a good candidate for whiney crybaby of the race. I used the word "knave" not once, not twice but thrice. Ahah, what sport shall we devise here in this garden?

[Daniel]

I'm sure you know what he really meant!

Perhaps, but he looks stupid. He could have just said they thought it was fine rather than make up a poxy excuse which makes it look like he's not focused on his job.

[Daniel]

fair point

This goes to the heart of why I just don't like McLaren, they've usually got a good car and Lewis is always going to be up there fighting for victories on a good day but their decision making skills when it comes to really simple things like this leave a lot to be desired. How many millions of pounds have they cost themselves in points purely by these three decisions

Lewis on Kimi in Spa (OK you can debate that one but to me it was obvious.....)
Lewis and Trulli (I think it was Trulli!) in Australia when Lewis let Trulli back past
Button and Massa today

2 out 3 of those incidents are 100% clearcut and McLaren have either lied or dithered and been made to pay.....

[Robinho]

i have to agree that they don't always seem to help themselves in these situations, whether i agree on the incidents themselves or not.

they did seem to get better last year, less controversial, more open, but they seem to be regressing at the moment. I do wonder how i would feel about them if they didn't have Button and Hamilton driving for them

[Garry Walker]

Button - stupid overtake on Massa and then let Vettel past him at once, when all he needed to do was hold him up for 1 or at max 2 laps and Hamilton would have come out ahead of Vettel after pitting. Very weak. He showed his racing skills already before when while much faster than Massa, he was unable to get past him.

Criticism is also deserved by Massa and Webber, they were doing nothing in comparison with their teammates, really sad showings.

[wedge]

Any different to Alonso/Kubica/Silverstone last year?

Both thought they were in the right.

Button led over Massa for split second.

It's OK to force a rival off the track to complete an overtake at corner exit but what if this happens into/between an S bend?

[UltimateDanGTR]

I think Button just though he was cheated by Massa being over aggresive and him being infront at the time. Everyone else disagrees with him because we all got several views of the incident and time to think about it. The problem was he didn't give the place back immediatly, and fair play to Arrogonso who really put Button in a compromising position by moving ahead of Massa.

There's no doubt after that point that Button deserved a penalty, but the thread title is rather excessive.

[ArrowsFA1]

This goes to the heart of why I just don't like McLaren...
Which appears to be the point ;)

Given the benefit of hindsight Button should have given the place back immediately, but he's a racing driver who had been stuck behind a slower car for lap after lap (so much for DRS) and was being caught from behind. No team or driver want to hand a place back unless they have to.

It's not the job of race control to tell the team what to do, but then they shouldn't tell a team when asked "we'll get back to you", and then not do so.

Ultimately, if a driver has made a questionable move it's not for him to penalise himself (this is a competitive sport), it's the stewards decision to judge the move and until they do the driver is entitled to race on.

[BDunnell]

This goes to the heart of why I just don't like McLaren, they've usually got a good car and Lewis is always going to be up there fighting for victories on a good day but their decision making skills when it comes to really simple things like this leave a lot to be desired. How many millions of pounds have they cost themselves in points purely by these three decisions

Why does it matter so much, except for the purposes of your making the point? I find this business of not liking one team and liking another a bit juvenile, but maybe that's just me.

[truefan72]

This goes to the heart of why I just don't like McLaren, they've usually got a good car and Lewis is always going to be up there fighting for victories on a good day but their decision making skills when it comes to really simple things like this leave a lot to be desired. How many millions of pounds have they cost themselves in points purely by these three decisions

Lewis on Kimi in Spa (OK you can debate that one but to me it was obvious.....)
Lewis and Trulli (I think it was Trulli!) in Australia when Lewis let Trulli back past
Button and Massa today

2 out 3 of those incidents are 100% clearcut and McLaren have either lied or dithered and been made to pay.....

selectively picking up 3 incidents and building an entire rational behind it is disingenuous.
I can easily name you 10 situations where mclaren were slighted or unfairly treated by the FIA in that same time period
and as to Spa 2008, we all know that was a complete travesty.

Where you this mad with alonso during Silverstone last year, and did you declare the entire team to be liars?
By your standards, you surely must hate, RBR, Ferrari, Brawn/Mercedes, now Sauber and pretty much any team out there

[truefan72]

Button - stupid overtake on Massa and then let Vettel past him at once, when all he needed to do was hold him up for 1 or at max 2 laps and Hamilton would have come out ahead of Vettel after pitting. Very weak. He showed his racing skills already before when while much faster than Massa, he was unable to get past him.

yep, I was so annoyed that he could not hold back Vettel for at least 1 bloody lap. Or maybe Button didn't care and was trying to run his own race. either scenario is not acceptable from a team point of view. Frankly, it was difficult to watch

[Daniel]

Which appears to be the point ;)

So I can show previous examples of what they've done to make me not like them and you accuse me of reverse fanboisim? :confused:

Given the benefit of hindsight McLaren and Button would probably have done the same WRONG thing, as they always seem to do for some reason.

[Daniel]

selectively picking up 3 incidents and building an entire rational behind it is disingenuous.
I can easily name you 10 situations where mclaren were slighted or unfairly treated by the FIA in that same time period
and as to Spa 2008, we all know that was a complete travesty.

Where you this mad with alonso during Silverstone last year, and did you declare the entire team to be liars?
By your standards, you surely must hate, RBR, Ferrari, Brawn/Mercedes, now Sauber and pretty much any team out there

That's what people do, if you are up for murder in a court, the prosecuting lawyer isn't going to do their best to showcase all those times you've picked up small injured animals and nursed them back to help now are they? :confused:

I can't remember the incident with Alonso but reading a couple of articles it seems like Fernando did the same and got penalised. I probably made some negative remarks about Fernando back then too, that doen't change the reality of what happened today.

Heaven forbid someone should ever try to justify an opinion with examples ever again, I agree that is quite rude of me!!!!!! I should just be a fanboi and hate them because I don't like their particular shade of silver!!!!!!

[GridGirl]

I didn't find Button's comments whiney or of a cry baby nature but has it been confirmed that Jenson made his comments after seeing video footage. I would question whether Jenson can actually see the front of his car and make an entirely accurate statement that he was definately ahead of Massa without seeing footage. I suppose its a spatial awareness thing but is made one hell of a lot harder with the seating position of a driver and the speed they were travelling at. We have all heard the comments that this crash, pentalty or whatever was X's fault and the X says it was Y's fault in the heat of the moment without seeing detailed footage of an incident at differning camera angles.

[airshifter]

I don't think Button would have made that corner even if Felipe straight lined it into the gravel. He was on the outer edge of the track off the racing line, and couldn't even seen to attempt to brake for the corner.

Then they made matters worse by not giving the position back. Bonehead move of the day.

[Koz]

I don't think Button would have made that corner even if Felipe straight lined it into the gravel. He was on the outer edge of the track off the racing line, and couldn't even seen to attempt to brake for the corner.

Then they made matters worse by not giving the position back. Bonehead move of the day.

Yep!

Mind you wasn't Button whining before this incident too?

[Bezza]

Whiney crybaby of the race?

YOU, Daniel, for constantly whinging on this thread! You're like a stuck record!

Button passed Massa, should have given it back, end of. I don't recall him whinging. He was asked a question and answered it honestly.

[Daniel]

Waaaaaambulance for bezza please

[Daniel]

In the spirit of not going on about the same thing in this thread, does anyone else here like nectarines? I do.

[markabilly]

I didn't find Button's comments whiney or of a cry baby nature but has it been confirmed that Jenson made his comments after seeing video footage. I would question whether Jenson can actually see the front of his car and make an entirely accurate statement that he was definately ahead of Massa without seeing footage. I suppose its a spatial awareness thing but is made one hell of a lot harder with the seating position of a driver and the speed they were travelling at. We have all heard the comments that this crash, pentalty or whatever was X's fault and the X says it was Y's fault in the heat of the moment without seeing detailed footage of an incident at differning camera angles.

i agree about that, except video footage creates an illusion or distortion that slows down the action to the viewer, makes things very clear and visible, while "being there" gives a diiferent view and perspective. Indeed, at racing speed, things happen very very quickly when you are in the car. Toss in limited visibility and it becomes even worse.

what is clearly visible on the video is never so clear to the drivers

[markabilly]

In the spirit of not going on about the same thing in this thread, does anyone else here like nectarines? I do.

try the kool aid instead and see jesus sooner than expected.....


on second thought, forget about seeeing jesus, you unrepentent sinner; somebody else is waiting :devil:

[SGWilko]

on second thought, forget about seeeing jesus, you unrepentent sinner; somebody else is waiting :devil:

Elvis?

[markabilly]

Elvis?

No, he is with sweet baby Jesus

[Retro Formula 1]

I thought Jense was a bit optamistic with that one and should have let him past and tried again. He may have been alongside but no way was he past.

As for Whining then I must defer to Daniel's opinion. I don't know anyone better qualified on this subject ;)

[Ari]

Actually whiney cry-baby of the race award goes to Webber for parking it as he crossed the line. I guess he couldn't drive while he was crying.